July 1, 2025 • 35 mins
Sitcom Writer
Join us to explore career tips from sitcom writer Dawn DeKeyser, who shares insights and job advice for the aspiring writes,
What does it really take to make people laugh for a living? That’s the job of Dawn DeKeyser, a veteran comedy writer for hit shows like Ugly Betty and News Radio. She pulls back the curtain on the world of television writing career.
Dawn describes the collaborative chaos of a writer's room - a place she calls "a full contact sport" where writers physically act out jokes and jump on tables to sell their ideas. She reveals the structured approach to crafting an episodes, while sharing her personal battle with writer's block and her solution via "the swill draft."
Whether you're curious about television-writing, fascinated by the creative process, or simply want to understand how your favorite shows come together, Dawn's story offers both entertainment and inspiration.
Dawn's IMBD page - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0215245/
Dawn's website - https://www.dawndekeyser.com/
Visit our website at HowMuchCaniMake.info to suggest jobs you'd like us to cover, and don't forget to follow us and share with friends who are curious about their next career move.
Want us to cover a specific job? Shoot us an email!
Music credit: Kate Pierson & Monica Nation
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
We poach from our family and friends.
Watch what you say.
Around a screenwriter, I wouldcarry a notepad where I had my
joke file.
I had conversation snippets.
If I was eavesdropping on thesubway, I would take all of that
.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hi, welcome back to how Much Can I Make, the podcast
where we pull back the curtainson career you've always
wondered about.
I'm your host, mara Vozzeri,and today we're diving into the
world of punchlines, rewritesand writer's rooms with none
other than Don DeCaser, aseasoned sitcom and comedy
writer whose credit includes hitshows like Ugly, betty, news
(00:47):
Radio and many others.
In the show notes I put a linkto Dawn's IMBD page and you can
see the huge amount of shows shewrote for.
So let's dive right in and findout what it takes to write
funny for a living.
First, dawn, I would like tothank you for your time.
I know you're really busy and Ireally appreciate it that
(01:07):
you're willing to sit with us.
My pleasure, that's great.
I have a lot of questions, butlet's start with.
What made you become a writer?
Was it a moment in time or didyou always know?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
So I did not always know, and I would say that when
I was growing up it was CarolBurnett at first and Lucille
Ball it was these comedic womenthat had their own shows that
just kind of opened my world up.
I didn't know that that existed.
I lived overseas.
I lived in Europe, we were amilitary family, so when we came
(01:41):
to America I was just blownaway by funny women who seemed
to have their lives in order andI didn't know that you could be
a writer for TV.
I didn't even know that was anoption.
I had in the back of my mindthat I wanted to be an artist or
a novelist, but I was from avery middle class background and
(02:01):
those were not options.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
So, but you always loved writing yes.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Okay, yes.
So you didn't know, it was anoption and and so I studied
international business when Iwas in college in Texas and I
went over to Europe and lived inBelgium for a while.
I thought I don't know, I don'twant to know business.
I came back and I stumbled intothe television and radio
department on the University ofTexas campus and within that
(02:29):
they had an advertising programand I discovered art direction
and copywriting and that was theclosest I could even get my
head around being in a creativefield, Like OK, well, that's
kind of you can still earn aliving that way.
It was all about how do I paymy bills when I become an adult?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
So did you start as a copywriter?
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I started as a copywriter.
I started in Austin, thenDallas, then moved to New York
and became a copywriter and thena creative director.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
So how do you get from copywriter to comedy writer
?
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Well, that was a big leap.
I was living and working in NewYork.
A friend of mine moved out toLA and was discovered as an
actor and he said you know, youwrite 30 second segments and 60
second commercials.
Have you ever thought ofwriting 30 minute TV shows?
I love sitcoms more thananything.
(03:23):
By then I was like in my 20sand I was watching all of these
great 80s, like sitcoms from 70s, 80s and 90s and I just loved
them.
I thought I don't know if I cando that.
So he sent me some scripts fromthe shows that he was working
on and I began to study them,and then I took writing classes.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Oh, specifically for sitcom writing.
Yes, oh, wow and fell in lovewith that.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
And I fell in love with that.
I also took improv classes inNew York and film writing
classes and just sort of did adeep dive to educate myself.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
All right.
So what was the first show youwrote for?
Speaker 1 (04:03):
The first one was it was kind of a cult classic
called News Radio and it starredPhil Hartman and Dave Foley,
more Tierney.
It was just like a little NBCsitcom that gained this
following.
It was really well written, Ihave to say it was like a real
feather in my cap, but it wasone of the most difficult shows
I've ever worked on.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Why.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I was the only woman and every guy on staff was from
the Harvard Lampoon.
They all knew each other.
They were privileged, they werewhite dudes and they were
vicious.
They were vicious andcompetitive with each other, but
that was a game for them.
For me it just it was really ahostile work environment.
(04:46):
So I loved the actors.
They kind of adopted me andthey try to get their storylines
to me to take to the writer'sroom and, you know, be heard
that way.
It was difficult.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Interesting.
You know, I interviewed acamera, a TV camera woman, and
she said that the guys weresabotaging her work.
At the beginning they didn'twant to see a woman there.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
I can believe that.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
They took my work away from me.
They didn't allow me into somemeetings.
We would write all night inorder to get the scripts down to
the actors.
In the morning they would shutme out but then take all of my
work and use it on the air.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Without giving you credit for it.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Sometimes I'd get credit, but a lot of times no.
But that wasn't even the partthat concerned me.
We all share credit.
Sometimes we get our names onthe scripts, sometimes not, but
it is a very collaborativeprocess.
It was just the way theytreated a woman.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Wow.
So, but from the writing pointof view was it nerve-wracking to
the first show that you did.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
It was very nerve-wracking and when you
start out as a young writer, youwant to perform really well.
You put this inordinate amountof pressure on yourself, but
you're really not usuallyrequired to perform that well
because you are learning, you'reapprenticing, if anything.
That was a particularlydifficult work environment, so I
(06:18):
was very disciplined and Iwrote night and day and kept
turning in work and then ducking.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
So it's basically the comedy.
You chose it, but it's actuallyalso chose you.
You had the break.
That's always it's all aboutluck, yeah well the luck part.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
I moved out to LA with, I think, maybe $3,000 to
my name, which is, I mean, youknow, in the 90s.
You can get by on that.
I temped, I got odd jobs andthen I was able to get into the
Disney Writers Fellowship.
So they picked five out of afew thousand people and they
that is where I was able tostart getting my scripts
(06:56):
together to start submitting toshows.
So so how does it work?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
you have, you write like a spec script, right, and
then submit it.
How?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
do you know about spec scripts?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
I have been in that business a little bit.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you write, you put your specwork together and you start
making connections on your ownand I was able to make
connections through thefellowship and through the
Disney executives.
That didn't get me my first job.
It got me time on one of theirshows and a chance to get my
scripts together.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
You mentioned before that you write.
You wrote with other people,they all wrote and you all got
credit.
How do you write with a numberof people.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
So in a writer's room we spend weeks before called
pre-production, before we evergo into production and the
actors get there just talkingabout what the season's going to
look like.
If on network shows we had 22episodes to write, we would talk
about what are our first fourepisodes going to cover?
Who has ideas?
(07:58):
We'd come in with All sorts ofstory ideas for A stories, b, c,
joke runners it's just like abig mixing pot and then we would
start mapping out where wewanted our characters to go.
And we would do a lot of all ofthis, this initial work,
together.
And then we would startportioning out the scripts, like
(08:20):
who wants to write this firstone?
Who's got a really strong takeon this?
Who pitched this episode three?
Do you want to write that?
And there's a lot of stepsbefore you get to the first
draft.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
So when you said that you were sitting in the room
and deciding, only the writersor the network tells you listen,
the show has to be aboutso-and-so.
How does it work?
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Only the writers.
We'll have meetings with thenetwork saying this is what
we're looking for in this show.
They already know.
They kind of know that already,because they picked it up.
They've bought the show.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
So that's after a pilot.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
After pilot they get an idea of you know who the
writers are, what kind of workthey do and where the show is
going to go, and they do give usnotes.
They would give us notes weeklyon each script but it wasn't
suffocating at all.
You know, everyone wants theshow to work.
The smarter network executiveswould hand that over to the
(09:14):
writers because they know whatyou know.
We knew what we were doing.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
So I know that in television writers end up being
showrunner.
That's like the head writer fora show.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
It is the showrunner runs the show.
Usually you're the executiveproducer, they're the head
writer, and running the showmeans they run the writer's room
or they use proxies.
Like your executive, your co-EP, your producers, we all have
producing titles, but we're allwriters in the writer's room and
(09:47):
it just means that as you moveup the ladder you get to do more
producing, like going down tothe sets, talking to the actors,
going into the editing bays anda showrunner has had time on
other people's shows.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
She knows the process of getting a week's worth of
work together I like how yousaid she is it mostly women that
are showrunners?
Speaker 1 (10:08):
no, no, but that's been.
That's been changing for thelast 10 years in such a great
way, but not when I was startingout.
No, but like one of the firstshowrunners, not one of the
first, like Diane English, therewas Susan Harris, there were a
lot of, really, uh.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Diane English is known.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yeah, she created Murphy Brown.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
When I saw that show I was in my 20s and I remember
going to work at an ad agencyand asking anyone did you see
this new show, Murphy Brown?
It's incredible and no one hadseen it and I thought it's also
run by a woman and this, again,like it, fed into my.
I want to be a Carol Burnett, Iwant to work with a Tracy
Ullman, I want to know thisDiane English.
(10:53):
And the showrunner just hasthis overview and is suddenly
running a multimillion dollarempire.
It's difficult because you comeup from a creative standpoint
as a writer.
And suddenly you're given these-.
Like a producer A producer veryadministrative role, right.
(11:16):
Do you have a dream of becominga showrunner?
I did for a while.
I've run rooms plenty.
I've been a co-EP, which isnext to the exec producer.
I have sold pilots.
I've sold series that, had theygone forward, I would have been
the showrunner on.
Okay series that had they gone,had they gone forward, I would
have been the showrunner on okay, as I was reaching that part in
my career.
The tv industry was changing sorapidly and a lot of people
were taking a hit like this.
(11:37):
You know just our strikes andeverything going to streaming,
digital residuals, all thesethings were just totally
changing the landmark thelandscape of it.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
So you worked on a lot of shows, like Ugly Betty.
I know Jenna Davis these arethe names that I remember.
What was your favorite show towork on, and why?
Speaker 1 (11:59):
It was Ugly Betty.
I made my leap from beingpurely in the comedy writing
room to dramedy, so it was a bigwriter's room, 12 to 14 people.
Sometimes people would come andgo as consultants and it was
half drama writers and halfcomedy.
It was women, gay men, couples.
It was the most egalitarianroom I'd ever walked into and it
(12:21):
was a joy.
It was so much fun and it wasmore about when you're in a
comedy writing room I call it afull contact sport.
And it was more about whenyou're in a comedy writing room
I call it a full contact sport.
These people jump.
You jump on the table to sellyour idea.
You act out your jokes.
You're always trying to hityour mark.
With drama, it's much morewriterly.
Let's talk about how we'regoing to shift this act into act
(12:44):
two how do we end this scene?
And I loved that because I hadnot been around that.
It was much more performativewhere I was coming from.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Do you sit in the reading when the actors actually
read it?
Do you give them somedirections also?
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah, that is called the weekly table read.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
So when you're about to go to the stage with a new
script, all the network andstudio executives, the actors
and the writers, everybody comesin, sits around a table and
they read, cold, from thescripts that they'd gotten the
night before.
And the network says okay, weheard the whole episode.
We're going to talk to you guys, the writers, here's our notes
(13:23):
Studio may have notes and thenwe go back to the writer's room
and we figure out what worked,what fell flat, what kind of
rewrite we need to do that day.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Do you tape it or do you just listen?
As it happens, you listen, youlisten yeah.
And you can tell and you don'tmiss Right.
So okay, so when you writesomething characters especially
where is your inspiration from?
Where do you take the details?
Family, friends, your life,imagination, what?
Speaker 1 (13:50):
We poach from our family and friends.
Watch what you say.
Around a screenwriter, I wouldcarry a notepad where I had my
joke file.
I had conversation snippets.
If I was eavesdropping on thesubway, I would take all of that
.
And when you're pitching toother writers in the room you
(14:12):
want to have, you want it to begrounded with you know what?
I was just on the bus and Iheard these two people talking
about this.
It makes it more immediate andreal.
I mean because it is real.
That's just sort of a good ruleof thumb.
When you're pitching your idea,you want to make it accessible
so people can go.
Oh, I can totally see thatscene.
I can see where it plays out.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
So we pull from everything right, yeah, so you,
you, you write the episode.
Do you watch it when it airs?
Speaker 1 (14:41):
we do.
I mean, we have viewing parties.
A lot of times I I don't watchmy shows from 10 and 20 years
ago.
It's a weird thing to do that,because it takes me right back
to the time we'd have on the setand all of the politics going
on with the network.
It's very, it's very jarringfor me.
(15:01):
But you know, especially whenyou're on a hit show, you can't
wait for it to air.
You go over to everyone's houseor the actors' houses and you
watch it debut.
It's great.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Does it happen to you when you watch and say, oh
shoot, I should have written itthis way.
And does it happen?
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And also in editing you canlose entire parts of the script
and sometimes the script can endup not making a lot of sense.
Right yeah you lose a lot inthe process.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
So you mentioned residuals.
I know that on Broadway theyget royalties.
The creative people Do you getroyalties?
I mean on reruns and all ofthat.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
We do get residuals and it's one of the things that
I think in the 1980s the WritersGuild, which I'm a member of
it's our type of union.
They fought for residuals,pension and health coverage, and
without that I don't know howI'd be getting by.
I relied on residuals and withthe prime time shows that I
(16:01):
worked on abc, cbs, nbc thosepaid really well.
I think the minimum guild was,say, twenty thousand dollars for
a script for an episode for anepisode.
Sorry for an episode.
Okay, when it runs, you gethalf of that, ten thousand wow I
know, and then every time itwould run.
After that it would go down byhalf half, half.
(16:22):
All of that changed when itstarted going to cable into
streaming what do you mean?
Well, there was a different kindof negotiations that happened.
So we went on strike in 2007,2008, because we didn't even
know that was on the verybeginning.
There was a verge of everythinggoing streaming, so we didn't
even know how to argue fordigital residuals, where
(16:46):
something can be pumped out in50 different iterations on
different platforms.
So residuals really took a hit.
Writers that were reliant onthat kind of stream of income
were taken a hit.
I still get tiny checks from mynetwork days and very small
checks from my digital streamingdays.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
And if the show was shown overseas?
I mean, some shows gointernational.
Do you get residuals from that?
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah, and it's not a lot, but you'll get a chunk of.
They'll aggregate a lot of yoursmaller payments for
international usage and you'llget that in a lump sum.
It could be anywhere from $dollars to thousands yeah it's,
it's I just don't even know whatthey base it on, but so it's
(17:37):
always just it's christmas.
Well, every quarter for me Iget oh, like the other day I got
a check for 87 cents.
For what for it was?
Um, it was for a nickelodeonshow that I wrote that I'd
totally forgotten about and Ithought the 87 cents that they
sent me in a paper check thathad to then go through all these
(17:57):
guilds and paycheck companiesand then being mailed to me was
a loss.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Of course, just the stamp is 75 cents now.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Are they?
Yeah, oh my God.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
That is crazy.
Okay, so comedy, we know, isvery subjective.
How do you know when you writea line, that it's really funny?
Speaker 1 (18:19):
That is a difficult question to answer.
I gosh, where do I start?
I did not consider myself afunny person until I met someone
in my later 20s who said you'rereally funny.
And that again was like theseopportunities that I eventually
(18:39):
got were not even on my radarwhen I was young.
So I started exploring, Istarted doing improv and just
sort of stretching that doing,doing improv, performing or
writing.
Performing and I was terribleand I will only be behind a
camera.
I was just so terrible.
But it taught me, like, how doyou think in the moment, what
(19:01):
would a character really reallysay in those instances?
The comedy part of it is I knewthat I wanted to be around
really funny people and Iimagined that Lucy and Desi had
a beautiful house in Hollywoodand poolside it was all of the
great comedians and I thought Iwonder if they still do that in
this time and age.
And come to find out they do.
(19:22):
When you break in as a comedywriter, you go to parties where
it's the funniest, most amazing.
As a comedy writer, you go toparties where it's the funniest,
most amazing talented people inthe world.
And so I got my dream to bearound funny people and you just
keep up.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
So what?
They just run lines around thepool.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Well, I mean, they're just funny, naturally, and you
want to not be crushed in aconversation, so you step up
your game.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Interesting.
So how long does it typicallytake to write an episode?
Speaker 1 (19:50):
When you're on staff, you're usually given two weeks,
and that's from the time that.
Hey, what are we doing withthis episode that's going to be
filmed next month?
So you talk about the story,you talk about the smaller
stories within it, you write anoutline and then, as the one
writer, you'll be handed that asan assignment.
Take that episode, go home.
(20:11):
You've got a week and a half towrite it, and then you come
back and then it's workshoppedby the other writers.
So you've got people cycling inand out of the writer's room
depending on where they are inthe writing of their episode.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
So did it happen to you that you had a writer's
block?
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Oh yes.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
What happens then?
What do you do?
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I really succumbed to that.
I think it's a luxury that alot of people don't have,
Especially when you're workinglike there would be times when
we were called to turn a scriptaround in two days.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Right.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
So we would just all jump on it together.
If I was given a week and ahalf to write a script, I would
freeze for the first seven days.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
What.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, that's my process, apparently, and I would
just wring my hands and stareat the sky and think I can never
do this.
I'm going to write my way outof my career and then I would
scare myself into writing and Iwould sit down and do two or
three all-nighters, but that was.
I don't recommend that.
(21:15):
I don't recommend it.
It was exhausting physicallyand emotionally and it was
terrible on my loved ones andanyone who watched my process.
So I don't recommend that.
But I'm constantly still.
I come from a place of fear.
I want to write what's great,and in order to write great, you
have to write really shittily.
Really.
Yeah, I do, and I tell writersthese days write poorly.
(21:36):
I would write what I call theswill draft.
It's nothing but pure swill,horrible, unreadable.
But at least I got on the paperso then I can go in and start
writing from there.
But the blank page is somethingthat just takes the wind out of
me.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
That leads me to the question about AI Also.
I know the last strike wasabout AI.
Yeah, how can you help that?
Don't you think studios willjust write through AI?
They are, they already are.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
There are studios, I think it's Sony Through AI they
are, they already are.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Really.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
There are studios I think it's Sony that has said
that they are going to use theirown AI.
Let's call it a machine.
It's a plagiarizing machine.
They're saying they're going totake all the Sony intellectual
properties and funnel it intotheir own AI system and then
they're going to pull from that.
So it's not really poaching,it's not stealing if you're
(22:28):
stealing from yourself.
I mean what we're headingtowards is you can take any
existing pilot or pre-existingpilot, run all of the episodes
that are ever written for itinto AI and say write me a new
season of 10 episodes.
It's not going to be very good,but it's always.
You know the writing of it'sgetting better.
(22:50):
So when we went on strike in2022, we didn't even it was not
that long ago we didn't evenknow what AI was going to be
doing other than it was going tobe a threat.
It is.
It's unregulated.
I think that my peers and Iwere not for no AI.
(23:11):
That would be foolish.
It's like saying no internet.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
But there's no regulation I can tell when
someone writes with AI.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Really.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah, there are so many tells.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Really.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yes, and even when you ask it to write in a more
human voice, it's not there yet.
It has a lot to do with theprompts that you feed it.
I'll do research using AI andsome of it's really in-depth and
amazing.
Some of it's incorrect.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yes, I saw that a lot , yeah, but what stops you as a
writer?
You have a week to write, or aweek and a half.
Seven days, you are paralyzed,basically.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
What stops you from just feeding all the characters
and stuff into ai and spewingsomething?
Speaker 1 (23:54):
because it takes you out of your brain and your
talent.
It extracts that and thenyou're a, you're passive, and
any writing that I've done usingai which is more for
administrative, or I do tablesand spreadsheets I am just
watching it give me answers.
As a writer, you have to godeep, you have to go emotional,
(24:19):
otherwise what you're writing isjust words on a page.
You'll never find your voice,and that's one of the things
that you get to do as a.
As a writer, throughout yourcareer, your voice deepens.
You find a way to say somethingthat no one else can say in a
way that no one else can say it,and all of that would be erased
with AI.
(24:39):
So I caution young writers.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
What show you wish you had worked on.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
The Tracy Ullman Show which is sketch comedy.
I know it was sketch comedy andthat's where the Simpsons got
its start.
I was up for King of the Hill.
It is an animated show and Ijust loved it so much I thought
I was perfect for it and Ididn't get the job.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
There was major depression right.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah, yeah, that one hurt.
There was a lot of things thatI didn't get.
Oh, I turned down shows thatbecame juggernauts.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Oh, why Don't tell me you turned down Friends?
Speaker 1 (25:13):
I didn't turn down Friends, I turned down Sex and
the City because I thought itwas going nowhere.
I watched the pilot and theysaid, Dawn, you can move back to
New York where so many of yourfriends are.
And I was like, yeah, I'vewatched the pilot.
I said no, I don't see ithappening.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
I hated this show.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah, I mean I ended up loving the show.
The first season was bizarreand bad and then it kind of
found its stride.
All of my close friends workedon it, made a career of it,
bought homes.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Did you kick yourself oh?
Speaker 1 (25:43):
my God, yes, my daughter's.
Like we all love Sex and theCity.
They're all in their 20s.
And I said, you know?
And she goes, mom, don't tellthe story about you.
Turn that show down.
You can't watch it withoutbeing bitter.
I was like, no, I'm bitter.
I am so bitter, my God.
And there were many shows thatI should have gone with that
(26:04):
stayed around for years andyears, and I was like, no, I
don't see it.
There was a time that I was100% wrong on every call that I
made with my career.
It cost me everything.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Oh well, and your?
Speaker 1 (26:17):
agent didn't push you to accept it.
They did, they did.
My agent called me at like latenight.
I found this show for you.
You've got to get on Sex andthe City.
Oh yeah, yeah, oh well.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
It is what it is.
Everybody has a missed story.
I know Any industry that theyare.
Yes, if you would have thepossibility of producing or
writing any project, what wouldthat be?
Speaker 1 (26:42):
I do have a project that I want to do and it's a
post-Civil War feminist screed.
But funny, oh, oh yeah, I just.
There's a woman outlaw thatexisted that I want to write
about, and in order to get thatdone, first I have to write
about it and stop talking aboutit.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
As a film or as a TV show as a TV show.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
And in order to get that made and realized, I would
reach out to producers that I'veworked with.
I would reach out to actorsthat I've reached out to one and
he said I think it's a greatidea and I'd be a part of that.
I'd have to do the producingand pulling it together myself,
and it's just really a matter ofcan I?
You know, if I can get past myown self.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
For someone without connections to producers or
network executives?
What's the best way for them tobreak into the business?
Speaker 1 (27:33):
I talked to a lot of university students in the film
and TV programs and I said firstoff, you've got YouTube.
I think it's an amazing force.
You've got TikTok, you've gotInstagram.
You have ways of getting yourwork as a comedian, especially
as a musician.
There are formats that wedidn't have at our fingertips
right.
That it requires you toself-produce.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
So when you apply for the job, they look how many
followers you have.
They do now.
They do huh.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Yeah, that's a big part of it.
Even for actors now, it's notwhere we wanted things to go and
you've got writers who arecamera shy.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
And you're very solitary usually.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Very solitary.
Yeah, we're introverts by andlarge and there's a lot of us
being called to get our names,our brands, as ourselves out
there.
I did that a lot last year.
It worked.
I didn't enjoy it, but I've gotto do it again if I want to get
some heat behind my name sothat people will read me.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Wow, I looked up your history a little bit and I see
that you went into producing andinto coaching other writers.
That's why you started that.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
It is, and also there's the notes giving process
to scripts that I always reallyloved.
I was always in writers groups.
I feel like I'm in a reallygood position to mentor and help
other people, so I shiftedafter 2020, because we all
shifted, we all pivoted where welived, how we lived and you
(29:05):
mean after the pandemic.
After the pandemic Right, yeah,we did it.
We had a lot of time for soulsearching and I did not want the
hustle of getting my nextproject up.
But I did want the hustle ofwhat if I can create a company
that people can come to as awriting community and they can
form their own writers groupsand I can coach and I can do one
(29:27):
on one script consultation.
So I've been doing that for thelast couple of years and I love
it.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
What's the best advice you got as a writer in
your career?
Speaker 1 (29:37):
I think it was simple Get out of your own way.
Get out of your own way.
When you're writing, we tend tolike get precious about oh, I
want to tell, oh, that was areally good line, oh, this is
not great.
Like it's the all theeditingthat will slow up your writing
and really put a kink in theworks.
(29:57):
Let the writing happen, followit.
You don't have to be sostressed about it like you're
hanging on too tight.
Let it go see where it goes.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
And that to me was like a free fall on your website
, I saw something that reallyperked my interest.
You said that everybody canwrite, that writing is a muscle,
right?
Please talk about it, because Idon't believe it, but maybe so
tell me what you don't believeabout.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Writing is a muscle.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
I think a lot of it has to do with talent, with how
articulate you are, howobserving you are, that kind of
thing.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Yeah, that you have to have.
I think that I jumped over allof that.
You have to have talent, buttalent can be brought out.
You do have to have a point ofview, and that's something that
comes with maturity.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Right.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
And then the muscle part of it is what has kept me
working in an industry thatlikes to disappear people after
40.
What's kept me working is myhabits and rituals and my habit
of writing every morning, andthat's the morning pages, the
Julia Cameron artist way stuffVery corny.
I resisted it for 20 years andthen, at a very particular time
(31:07):
in my life in 2018, my marriagewas failing.
We were losing everything it.
It was very I'd lost my voiceand my ability to write and I,
out of desperation, turned tomorning pages and I would sit
there with my cup of coffee andgo I don't want to do this, I
don't want to do this.
And weeks into months, I startedcoming back to myself, just
(31:29):
stream of consciousness, writing.
Stream of consciousness becausewhen you first wake up, it's
that diffuse thinking, youranalytical brain is not kicked
in yet and that was the muscleof just getting my thoughts out
of my cranium and onto a pageand then going on with my day
and what I found out.
It cleared out my day to get tomy other writing, which is the.
(31:51):
That's the professional writing.
But I couldn't do theprofessional writing because I
was so lost and it was thosemorning pages.
That got me back on track.
So when I talk about, it's likethe muscle that you have to
develop, it does mean writingeach day.
I think talent can be broughtout by that.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Interesting.
That's good to know for all theaudience out there that are
dreaming to become writers.
Yeah, what is the biggestchallenge for a screenplay
writer?
I?
Speaker 1 (32:17):
would say that they think it's breaking in.
I think it is learning theformat and how to tell a great
story they need to know I mean,let's just talk about film
writers To write a screenplayyou've got to have the outline,
the treatment, the breaking, thestory.
(32:38):
You've got to know all thebeats to hit.
And if you're trying to bereally creative and artistic and
work outside of that, then goodluck.
But you're not going to be ascreenwriter unless you can go
make it yourself.
I think that's the hardesthurdle is reining in your talent
and putting it into the formatthat will get you read and made.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
When you say format, let's take film, for example.
I know they have like oh, byseven minutes.
You have to have your firstplot point and then another 21
minutes, you have to haveanother plot point, you have to
have three acts.
So do you follow that formula?
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Absolutely.
I follow it to the T, to thepage number, and here's why.
That's what helped me break in.
And I studied the beats to asitcom.
I watched Frasier episodes, Iwatched anything that was on and
I wrote it down in a notepadand I thought, oh, in this one
minute, this is the informationthey conveyed.
(33:37):
How they conveyed it?
Which character conveyed it?
When you're writing ascreenplay, by page three, you
want to know what the genre isLike.
Am I reading a horror?
Am I reading a romantic comedy?
You've got to pick your lane.
I think a lot of other writerswould disagree with me, but this
is what worked for me.
I stuck to the format and thestructure and it mattered.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Interesting.
Yeah, they always talk aboutthe format.
Yeah, it's incredible.
Yeah, what advice would youhave given yourself when you
were just starting out, when youwere 20, you said you started
to write.
Yeah, the first thing thatcomes to mind is don't take it
personally.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
What do you mean to write?
Yeah, the first thing thatcomes to mind is don't take it
personally, but I think that'swhat do you mean by that?
Don't take it personally, well,like when you get Rejected.
Rejected, and when you getnotes and when you're told
you'll never make it in thisbusiness, all these things.
Even I was told that inadvertising you got to be
(34:31):
ayear-old guys.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Right, so we talked about the challenge.
What's the biggest reward?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
It's the people that I have gotten to work with and
have become close to thefunniest, brightest, sharpest
people on the planet, and Ididn't, you know, I had that
when I was talking about that,poolside with Lucy and Desi.
That's kind of what I wanted.
That's kind of what I wanted mylife to look like, and my life
(34:56):
is that.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Do you have a dream of writing a novel?
Like when you were back inwherever Germany, you said In
England.
In England.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
You do.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Yes, I have various outlines and titles and ideas.
All right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
We're going to look forward to it.
Thank you so much for your time.
That was a real good lesson inTV behind the scenes Cool my
pleasure.
That's a wrap for today.
If you have a comment orquestion or would like us to
cover a certain job, please letus know.
(35:33):
Visit our website athowmuchcanimakeinfo.
We would love to hear from you.
And, on your way out, don'tforget to subscribe and share
this episode with anyone who iscurious about their next job.
See you next time.
We poach from our family and friends.
Watch what you say.
Around a screenwriter, I wouldcarry a notepad where I had my
joke file.
I had conversation snippets.
If I was eavesdropping on thesubway, I would take all of that
.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Hi, welcome back to how Much Can I Make, the podcast
where we pull back the curtainson career you've always
wondered about.
I'm your host, mara Vozzeri,and today we're diving into the
world of punchlines, rewritesand writer's rooms with none
other than Don DeCaser, aseasoned sitcom and comedy
writer whose credit includes hitshows like Ugly, betty, news
(00:47):
Radio and many others.
In the show notes I put a linkto Dawn's IMBD page and you can
see the huge amount of shows shewrote for.
So let's dive right in and findout what it takes to write
funny for a living.
First, dawn, I would like tothank you for your time.
I know you're really busy and Ireally appreciate it that
(01:07):
you're willing to sit with us.
My pleasure, that's great.
I have a lot of questions, butlet's start with.
What made you become a writer?
Was it a moment in time or didyou always know?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
So I did not always know, and I would say that when
I was growing up it was CarolBurnett at first and Lucille
Ball it was these comedic womenthat had their own shows that
just kind of opened my world up.
I didn't know that that existed.
I lived overseas.
I lived in Europe, we were amilitary family, so when we came
(01:41):
to America I was just blownaway by funny women who seemed
to have their lives in order andI didn't know that you could be
a writer for TV.
I didn't even know that was anoption.
I had in the back of my mindthat I wanted to be an artist or
a novelist, but I was from avery middle class background and
(02:01):
those were not options.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
So, but you always loved writing yes.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Okay, yes.
So you didn't know, it was anoption and and so I studied
international business when Iwas in college in Texas and I
went over to Europe and lived inBelgium for a while.
I thought I don't know, I don'twant to know business.
I came back and I stumbled intothe television and radio
department on the University ofTexas campus and within that
(02:29):
they had an advertising programand I discovered art direction
and copywriting and that was theclosest I could even get my
head around being in a creativefield, Like OK, well, that's
kind of you can still earn aliving that way.
It was all about how do I paymy bills when I become an adult?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
So did you start as a copywriter?
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I started as a copywriter.
I started in Austin, thenDallas, then moved to New York
and became a copywriter and thena creative director.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
So how do you get from copywriter to comedy writer
?
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Well, that was a big leap.
I was living and working in NewYork.
A friend of mine moved out toLA and was discovered as an
actor and he said you know, youwrite 30 second segments and 60
second commercials.
Have you ever thought ofwriting 30 minute TV shows?
I love sitcoms more thananything.
(03:23):
By then I was like in my 20sand I was watching all of these
great 80s, like sitcoms from 70s, 80s and 90s and I just loved
them.
I thought I don't know if I cando that.
So he sent me some scripts fromthe shows that he was working
on and I began to study them,and then I took writing classes.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Oh, specifically for sitcom writing.
Yes, oh, wow and fell in lovewith that.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
And I fell in love with that.
I also took improv classes inNew York and film writing
classes and just sort of did adeep dive to educate myself.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
All right.
So what was the first show youwrote for?
Speaker 1 (04:03):
The first one was it was kind of a cult classic
called News Radio and it starredPhil Hartman and Dave Foley,
more Tierney.
It was just like a little NBCsitcom that gained this
following.
It was really well written, Ihave to say it was like a real
feather in my cap, but it wasone of the most difficult shows
I've ever worked on.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Why.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I was the only woman and every guy on staff was from
the Harvard Lampoon.
They all knew each other.
They were privileged, they werewhite dudes and they were
vicious.
They were vicious andcompetitive with each other, but
that was a game for them.
For me it just it was really ahostile work environment.
(04:46):
So I loved the actors.
They kind of adopted me andthey try to get their storylines
to me to take to the writer'sroom and, you know, be heard
that way.
It was difficult.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Interesting.
You know, I interviewed acamera, a TV camera woman, and
she said that the guys weresabotaging her work.
At the beginning they didn'twant to see a woman there.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
I can believe that.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
They took my work away from me.
They didn't allow me into somemeetings.
We would write all night inorder to get the scripts down to
the actors.
In the morning they would shutme out but then take all of my
work and use it on the air.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Without giving you credit for it.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Sometimes I'd get credit, but a lot of times no.
But that wasn't even the partthat concerned me.
We all share credit.
Sometimes we get our names onthe scripts, sometimes not, but
it is a very collaborativeprocess.
It was just the way theytreated a woman.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Wow.
So, but from the writing pointof view was it nerve-wracking to
the first show that you did.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
It was very nerve-wracking and when you
start out as a young writer, youwant to perform really well.
You put this inordinate amountof pressure on yourself, but
you're really not usuallyrequired to perform that well
because you are learning, you'reapprenticing, if anything.
That was a particularlydifficult work environment, so I
(06:18):
was very disciplined and Iwrote night and day and kept
turning in work and then ducking.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
So it's basically the comedy.
You chose it, but it's actuallyalso chose you.
You had the break.
That's always it's all aboutluck, yeah well the luck part.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
I moved out to LA with, I think, maybe $3,000 to
my name, which is, I mean, youknow, in the 90s.
You can get by on that.
I temped, I got odd jobs andthen I was able to get into the
Disney Writers Fellowship.
So they picked five out of afew thousand people and they
that is where I was able tostart getting my scripts
(06:56):
together to start submitting toshows.
So so how does it work?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
you have, you write like a spec script, right, and
then submit it.
How?
Speaker 1 (07:04):
do you know about spec scripts?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
I have been in that business a little bit.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you write, you put your specwork together and you start
making connections on your ownand I was able to make
connections through thefellowship and through the
Disney executives.
That didn't get me my first job.
It got me time on one of theirshows and a chance to get my
scripts together.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
You mentioned before that you write.
You wrote with other people,they all wrote and you all got
credit.
How do you write with a numberof people.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
So in a writer's room we spend weeks before called
pre-production, before we evergo into production and the
actors get there just talkingabout what the season's going to
look like.
If on network shows we had 22episodes to write, we would talk
about what are our first fourepisodes going to cover?
Who has ideas?
(07:58):
We'd come in with All sorts ofstory ideas for A stories, b, c,
joke runners it's just like abig mixing pot and then we would
start mapping out where wewanted our characters to go.
And we would do a lot of all ofthis, this initial work,
together.
And then we would startportioning out the scripts, like
(08:20):
who wants to write this firstone?
Who's got a really strong takeon this?
Who pitched this episode three?
Do you want to write that?
And there's a lot of stepsbefore you get to the first
draft.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
So when you said that you were sitting in the room
and deciding, only the writersor the network tells you listen,
the show has to be aboutso-and-so.
How does it work?
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Only the writers.
We'll have meetings with thenetwork saying this is what
we're looking for in this show.
They already know.
They kind of know that already,because they picked it up.
They've bought the show.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
So that's after a pilot.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
After pilot they get an idea of you know who the
writers are, what kind of workthey do and where the show is
going to go, and they do give usnotes.
They would give us notes weeklyon each script but it wasn't
suffocating at all.
You know, everyone wants theshow to work.
The smarter network executiveswould hand that over to the
(09:14):
writers because they know whatyou know.
We knew what we were doing.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
So I know that in television writers end up being
showrunner.
That's like the head writer fora show.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
It is the showrunner runs the show.
Usually you're the executiveproducer, they're the head
writer, and running the showmeans they run the writer's room
or they use proxies.
Like your executive, your co-EP, your producers, we all have
producing titles, but we're allwriters in the writer's room and
(09:47):
it just means that as you moveup the ladder you get to do more
producing, like going down tothe sets, talking to the actors,
going into the editing bays anda showrunner has had time on
other people's shows.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
She knows the process of getting a week's worth of
work together I like how yousaid she is it mostly women that
are showrunners?
Speaker 1 (10:08):
no, no, but that's been.
That's been changing for thelast 10 years in such a great
way, but not when I was startingout.
No, but like one of the firstshowrunners, not one of the
first, like Diane English, therewas Susan Harris, there were a
lot of, really, uh.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Diane English is known.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yeah, she created Murphy Brown.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
When I saw that show I was in my 20s and I remember
going to work at an ad agencyand asking anyone did you see
this new show, Murphy Brown?
It's incredible and no one hadseen it and I thought it's also
run by a woman and this, again,like it, fed into my.
I want to be a Carol Burnett, Iwant to work with a Tracy
Ullman, I want to know thisDiane English.
(10:53):
And the showrunner just hasthis overview and is suddenly
running a multimillion dollarempire.
It's difficult because you comeup from a creative standpoint
as a writer.
And suddenly you're given these-.
Like a producer A producer veryadministrative role, right.
(11:16):
Do you have a dream of becominga showrunner?
I did for a while.
I've run rooms plenty.
I've been a co-EP, which isnext to the exec producer.
I have sold pilots.
I've sold series that, had theygone forward, I would have been
the showrunner on.
Okay series that had they gone,had they gone forward, I would
have been the showrunner on okay, as I was reaching that part in
my career.
The tv industry was changing sorapidly and a lot of people
were taking a hit like this.
(11:37):
You know just our strikes andeverything going to streaming,
digital residuals, all thesethings were just totally
changing the landmark thelandscape of it.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
So you worked on a lot of shows, like Ugly Betty.
I know Jenna Davis these arethe names that I remember.
What was your favorite show towork on, and why?
Speaker 1 (11:59):
It was Ugly Betty.
I made my leap from beingpurely in the comedy writing
room to dramedy, so it was a bigwriter's room, 12 to 14 people.
Sometimes people would come andgo as consultants and it was
half drama writers and halfcomedy.
It was women, gay men, couples.
It was the most egalitarianroom I'd ever walked into and it
(12:21):
was a joy.
It was so much fun and it wasmore about when you're in a
comedy writing room I call it afull contact sport.
And it was more about whenyou're in a comedy writing room
I call it a full contact sport.
These people jump.
You jump on the table to sellyour idea.
You act out your jokes.
You're always trying to hityour mark.
With drama, it's much morewriterly.
Let's talk about how we'regoing to shift this act into act
(12:44):
two how do we end this scene?
And I loved that because I hadnot been around that.
It was much more performativewhere I was coming from.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Do you sit in the reading when the actors actually
read it?
Do you give them somedirections also?
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah, that is called the weekly table read.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
So when you're about to go to the stage with a new
script, all the network andstudio executives, the actors
and the writers, everybody comesin, sits around a table and
they read, cold, from thescripts that they'd gotten the
night before.
And the network says okay, weheard the whole episode.
We're going to talk to you guys, the writers, here's our notes
(13:23):
Studio may have notes and thenwe go back to the writer's room
and we figure out what worked,what fell flat, what kind of
rewrite we need to do that day.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Do you tape it or do you just listen?
As it happens, you listen, youlisten yeah.
And you can tell and you don'tmiss Right.
So okay, so when you writesomething characters especially
where is your inspiration from?
Where do you take the details?
Family, friends, your life,imagination, what?
Speaker 1 (13:50):
We poach from our family and friends.
Watch what you say.
Around a screenwriter, I wouldcarry a notepad where I had my
joke file.
I had conversation snippets.
If I was eavesdropping on thesubway, I would take all of that
.
And when you're pitching toother writers in the room you
(14:12):
want to have, you want it to begrounded with you know what?
I was just on the bus and Iheard these two people talking
about this.
It makes it more immediate andreal.
I mean because it is real.
That's just sort of a good ruleof thumb.
When you're pitching your idea,you want to make it accessible
so people can go.
Oh, I can totally see thatscene.
I can see where it plays out.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
So we pull from everything right, yeah, so you,
you, you write the episode.
Do you watch it when it airs?
Speaker 1 (14:41):
we do.
I mean, we have viewing parties.
A lot of times I I don't watchmy shows from 10 and 20 years
ago.
It's a weird thing to do that,because it takes me right back
to the time we'd have on the setand all of the politics going
on with the network.
It's very, it's very jarringfor me.
(15:01):
But you know, especially whenyou're on a hit show, you can't
wait for it to air.
You go over to everyone's houseor the actors' houses and you
watch it debut.
It's great.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Does it happen to you when you watch and say, oh
shoot, I should have written itthis way.
And does it happen?
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And also in editing you canlose entire parts of the script
and sometimes the script can endup not making a lot of sense.
Right yeah you lose a lot inthe process.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
So you mentioned residuals.
I know that on Broadway theyget royalties.
The creative people Do you getroyalties?
I mean on reruns and all ofthat.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
We do get residuals and it's one of the things that
I think in the 1980s the WritersGuild, which I'm a member of
it's our type of union.
They fought for residuals,pension and health coverage, and
without that I don't know howI'd be getting by.
I relied on residuals and withthe prime time shows that I
(16:01):
worked on abc, cbs, nbc thosepaid really well.
I think the minimum guild was,say, twenty thousand dollars for
a script for an episode for anepisode.
Sorry for an episode.
Okay, when it runs, you gethalf of that, ten thousand wow I
know, and then every time itwould run.
After that it would go down byhalf half, half.
(16:22):
All of that changed when itstarted going to cable into
streaming what do you mean?
Well, there was a different kindof negotiations that happened.
So we went on strike in 2007,2008, because we didn't even
know that was on the verybeginning.
There was a verge of everythinggoing streaming, so we didn't
even know how to argue fordigital residuals, where
(16:46):
something can be pumped out in50 different iterations on
different platforms.
So residuals really took a hit.
Writers that were reliant onthat kind of stream of income
were taken a hit.
I still get tiny checks from mynetwork days and very small
checks from my digital streamingdays.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
And if the show was shown overseas?
I mean, some shows gointernational.
Do you get residuals from that?
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah, and it's not a lot, but you'll get a chunk of.
They'll aggregate a lot of yoursmaller payments for
international usage and you'llget that in a lump sum.
It could be anywhere from $dollars to thousands yeah it's,
it's I just don't even know whatthey base it on, but so it's
(17:37):
always just it's christmas.
Well, every quarter for me Iget oh, like the other day I got
a check for 87 cents.
For what for it was?
Um, it was for a nickelodeonshow that I wrote that I'd
totally forgotten about and Ithought the 87 cents that they
sent me in a paper check thathad to then go through all these
(17:57):
guilds and paycheck companiesand then being mailed to me was
a loss.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Of course, just the stamp is 75 cents now.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Are they?
Yeah, oh my God.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
That is crazy.
Okay, so comedy, we know, isvery subjective.
How do you know when you writea line, that it's really funny?
Speaker 1 (18:19):
That is a difficult question to answer.
I gosh, where do I start?
I did not consider myself afunny person until I met someone
in my later 20s who said you'rereally funny.
And that again was like theseopportunities that I eventually
(18:39):
got were not even on my radarwhen I was young.
So I started exploring, Istarted doing improv and just
sort of stretching that doing,doing improv, performing or
writing.
Performing and I was terribleand I will only be behind a
camera.
I was just so terrible.
But it taught me, like, how doyou think in the moment, what
(19:01):
would a character really reallysay in those instances?
The comedy part of it is I knewthat I wanted to be around
really funny people and Iimagined that Lucy and Desi had
a beautiful house in Hollywoodand poolside it was all of the
great comedians and I thought Iwonder if they still do that in
this time and age.
And come to find out they do.
(19:22):
When you break in as a comedywriter, you go to parties where
it's the funniest, most amazing.
As a comedy writer, you go toparties where it's the funniest,
most amazing talented people inthe world.
And so I got my dream to bearound funny people and you just
keep up.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
So what?
They just run lines around thepool.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Well, I mean, they're just funny, naturally, and you
want to not be crushed in aconversation, so you step up
your game.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Interesting.
So how long does it typicallytake to write an episode?
Speaker 1 (19:50):
When you're on staff, you're usually given two weeks,
and that's from the time that.
Hey, what are we doing withthis episode that's going to be
filmed next month?
So you talk about the story,you talk about the smaller
stories within it, you write anoutline and then, as the one
writer, you'll be handed that asan assignment.
Take that episode, go home.
(20:11):
You've got a week and a half towrite it, and then you come
back and then it's workshoppedby the other writers.
So you've got people cycling inand out of the writer's room
depending on where they are inthe writing of their episode.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
So did it happen to you that you had a writer's
block?
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Oh yes.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
What happens then?
What do you do?
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I really succumbed to that.
I think it's a luxury that alot of people don't have,
Especially when you're workinglike there would be times when
we were called to turn a scriptaround in two days.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Right.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
So we would just all jump on it together.
If I was given a week and ahalf to write a script, I would
freeze for the first seven days.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
What.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah, that's my process, apparently, and I would
just wring my hands and stareat the sky and think I can never
do this.
I'm going to write my way outof my career and then I would
scare myself into writing and Iwould sit down and do two or
three all-nighters, but that was.
I don't recommend that.
(21:15):
I don't recommend it.
It was exhausting physicallyand emotionally and it was
terrible on my loved ones andanyone who watched my process.
So I don't recommend that.
But I'm constantly still.
I come from a place of fear.
I want to write what's great,and in order to write great, you
have to write really shittily.
Really.
Yeah, I do, and I tell writersthese days write poorly.
(21:36):
I would write what I call theswill draft.
It's nothing but pure swill,horrible, unreadable.
But at least I got on the paperso then I can go in and start
writing from there.
But the blank page is somethingthat just takes the wind out of
me.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
That leads me to the question about AI Also.
I know the last strike wasabout AI.
Yeah, how can you help that?
Don't you think studios willjust write through AI?
They are, they already are.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
There are studios, I think it's Sony Through AI they
are, they already are.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Really.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
There are studios I think it's Sony that has said
that they are going to use theirown AI.
Let's call it a machine.
It's a plagiarizing machine.
They're saying they're going totake all the Sony intellectual
properties and funnel it intotheir own AI system and then
they're going to pull from that.
So it's not really poaching,it's not stealing if you're
(22:28):
stealing from yourself.
I mean what we're headingtowards is you can take any
existing pilot or pre-existingpilot, run all of the episodes
that are ever written for itinto AI and say write me a new
season of 10 episodes.
It's not going to be very good,but it's always.
You know the writing of it'sgetting better.
(22:50):
So when we went on strike in2022, we didn't even it was not
that long ago we didn't evenknow what AI was going to be
doing other than it was going tobe a threat.
It is.
It's unregulated.
I think that my peers and Iwere not for no AI.
(23:11):
That would be foolish.
It's like saying no internet.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
But there's no regulation I can tell when
someone writes with AI.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Really.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah, there are so many tells.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Really.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yes, and even when you ask it to write in a more
human voice, it's not there yet.
It has a lot to do with theprompts that you feed it.
I'll do research using AI andsome of it's really in-depth and
amazing.
Some of it's incorrect.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yes, I saw that a lot , yeah, but what stops you as a
writer?
You have a week to write, or aweek and a half.
Seven days, you are paralyzed,basically.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
What stops you from just feeding all the characters
and stuff into ai and spewingsomething?
Speaker 1 (23:54):
because it takes you out of your brain and your
talent.
It extracts that and thenyou're a, you're passive, and
any writing that I've done usingai which is more for
administrative, or I do tablesand spreadsheets I am just
watching it give me answers.
As a writer, you have to godeep, you have to go emotional,
(24:19):
otherwise what you're writing isjust words on a page.
You'll never find your voice,and that's one of the things
that you get to do as a.
As a writer, throughout yourcareer, your voice deepens.
You find a way to say somethingthat no one else can say in a
way that no one else can say it,and all of that would be erased
with AI.
(24:39):
So I caution young writers.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
What show you wish you had worked on.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
The Tracy Ullman Show which is sketch comedy.
I know it was sketch comedy andthat's where the Simpsons got
its start.
I was up for King of the Hill.
It is an animated show and Ijust loved it so much I thought
I was perfect for it and Ididn't get the job.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
There was major depression right.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Yeah, yeah, that one hurt.
There was a lot of things thatI didn't get.
Oh, I turned down shows thatbecame juggernauts.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Oh, why Don't tell me you turned down Friends?
Speaker 1 (25:13):
I didn't turn down Friends, I turned down Sex and
the City because I thought itwas going nowhere.
I watched the pilot and theysaid, Dawn, you can move back to
New York where so many of yourfriends are.
And I was like, yeah, I'vewatched the pilot.
I said no, I don't see ithappening.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
I hated this show.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah, I mean I ended up loving the show.
The first season was bizarreand bad and then it kind of
found its stride.
All of my close friends workedon it, made a career of it,
bought homes.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Did you kick yourself oh?
Speaker 1 (25:43):
my God, yes, my daughter's.
Like we all love Sex and theCity.
They're all in their 20s.
And I said, you know?
And she goes, mom, don't tellthe story about you.
Turn that show down.
You can't watch it withoutbeing bitter.
I was like, no, I'm bitter.
I am so bitter, my God.
And there were many shows thatI should have gone with that
(26:04):
stayed around for years andyears, and I was like, no, I
don't see it.
There was a time that I was100% wrong on every call that I
made with my career.
It cost me everything.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Oh well, and your?
Speaker 1 (26:17):
agent didn't push you to accept it.
They did, they did.
My agent called me at like latenight.
I found this show for you.
You've got to get on Sex andthe City.
Oh yeah, yeah, oh well.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
It is what it is.
Everybody has a missed story.
I know Any industry that theyare.
Yes, if you would have thepossibility of producing or
writing any project, what wouldthat be?
Speaker 1 (26:42):
I do have a project that I want to do and it's a
post-Civil War feminist screed.
But funny, oh, oh yeah, I just.
There's a woman outlaw thatexisted that I want to write
about, and in order to get thatdone, first I have to write
about it and stop talking aboutit.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
As a film or as a TV show as a TV show.
Okay.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
And in order to get that made and realized, I would
reach out to producers that I'veworked with.
I would reach out to actorsthat I've reached out to one and
he said I think it's a greatidea and I'd be a part of that.
I'd have to do the producingand pulling it together myself,
and it's just really a matter ofcan I?
You know, if I can get past myown self.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
For someone without connections to producers or
network executives?
What's the best way for them tobreak into the business?
Speaker 1 (27:33):
I talked to a lot of university students in the film
and TV programs and I said firstoff, you've got YouTube.
I think it's an amazing force.
You've got TikTok, you've gotInstagram.
You have ways of getting yourwork as a comedian, especially
as a musician.
There are formats that wedidn't have at our fingertips
right.
That it requires you toself-produce.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
So when you apply for the job, they look how many
followers you have.
They do now.
They do huh.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Yeah, that's a big part of it.
Even for actors now, it's notwhere we wanted things to go and
you've got writers who arecamera shy.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
And you're very solitary usually.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Very solitary.
Yeah, we're introverts by andlarge and there's a lot of us
being called to get our names,our brands, as ourselves out
there.
I did that a lot last year.
It worked.
I didn't enjoy it, but I've gotto do it again if I want to get
some heat behind my name sothat people will read me.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Wow, I looked up your history a little bit and I see
that you went into producing andinto coaching other writers.
That's why you started that.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
It is, and also there's the notes giving process
to scripts that I always reallyloved.
I was always in writers groups.
I feel like I'm in a reallygood position to mentor and help
other people, so I shiftedafter 2020, because we all
shifted, we all pivoted where welived, how we lived and you
(29:05):
mean after the pandemic.
After the pandemic Right, yeah,we did it.
We had a lot of time for soulsearching and I did not want the
hustle of getting my nextproject up.
But I did want the hustle ofwhat if I can create a company
that people can come to as awriting community and they can
form their own writers groupsand I can coach and I can do one
(29:27):
on one script consultation.
So I've been doing that for thelast couple of years and I love
it.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
What's the best advice you got as a writer in
your career?
Speaker 1 (29:37):
I think it was simple Get out of your own way.
Get out of your own way.
When you're writing, we tend tolike get precious about oh, I
want to tell, oh, that was areally good line, oh, this is
not great.
Like it's the all theeditingthat will slow up your writing
and really put a kink in theworks.
(29:57):
Let the writing happen, followit.
You don't have to be sostressed about it like you're
hanging on too tight.
Let it go see where it goes.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
And that to me was like a free fall on your website
, I saw something that reallyperked my interest.
You said that everybody canwrite, that writing is a muscle,
right?
Please talk about it, because Idon't believe it, but maybe so
tell me what you don't believeabout.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Writing is a muscle.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
I think a lot of it has to do with talent, with how
articulate you are, howobserving you are, that kind of
thing.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Yeah, that you have to have.
I think that I jumped over allof that.
You have to have talent, buttalent can be brought out.
You do have to have a point ofview, and that's something that
comes with maturity.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Right.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
And then the muscle part of it is what has kept me
working in an industry thatlikes to disappear people after
40.
What's kept me working is myhabits and rituals and my habit
of writing every morning, andthat's the morning pages, the
Julia Cameron artist way stuffVery corny.
I resisted it for 20 years andthen, at a very particular time
(31:07):
in my life in 2018, my marriagewas failing.
We were losing everything it.
It was very I'd lost my voiceand my ability to write and I,
out of desperation, turned tomorning pages and I would sit
there with my cup of coffee andgo I don't want to do this, I
don't want to do this.
And weeks into months, I startedcoming back to myself, just
(31:29):
stream of consciousness, writing.
Stream of consciousness becausewhen you first wake up, it's
that diffuse thinking, youranalytical brain is not kicked
in yet and that was the muscleof just getting my thoughts out
of my cranium and onto a pageand then going on with my day
and what I found out.
It cleared out my day to get tomy other writing, which is the.
(31:51):
That's the professional writing.
But I couldn't do theprofessional writing because I
was so lost and it was thosemorning pages.
That got me back on track.
So when I talk about, it's likethe muscle that you have to
develop, it does mean writingeach day.
I think talent can be broughtout by that.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Interesting.
That's good to know for all theaudience out there that are
dreaming to become writers.
Yeah, what is the biggestchallenge for a screenplay
writer?
I?
Speaker 1 (32:17):
would say that they think it's breaking in.
I think it is learning theformat and how to tell a great
story they need to know I mean,let's just talk about film
writers To write a screenplayyou've got to have the outline,
the treatment, the breaking, thestory.
(32:38):
You've got to know all thebeats to hit.
And if you're trying to bereally creative and artistic and
work outside of that, then goodluck.
But you're not going to be ascreenwriter unless you can go
make it yourself.
I think that's the hardesthurdle is reining in your talent
and putting it into the formatthat will get you read and made.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
When you say format, let's take film, for example.
I know they have like oh, byseven minutes.
You have to have your firstplot point and then another 21
minutes, you have to haveanother plot point, you have to
have three acts.
So do you follow that formula?
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Absolutely.
I follow it to the T, to thepage number, and here's why.
That's what helped me break in.
And I studied the beats to asitcom.
I watched Frasier episodes, Iwatched anything that was on and
I wrote it down in a notepadand I thought, oh, in this one
minute, this is the informationthey conveyed.
(33:37):
How they conveyed it?
Which character conveyed it?
When you're writing ascreenplay, by page three, you
want to know what the genre isLike.
Am I reading a horror?
Am I reading a romantic comedy?
You've got to pick your lane.
I think a lot of other writerswould disagree with me, but this
is what worked for me.
I stuck to the format and thestructure and it mattered.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
Interesting.
Yeah, they always talk aboutthe format.
Yeah, it's incredible.
Yeah, what advice would youhave given yourself when you
were just starting out, when youwere 20, you said you started
to write.
Yeah, the first thing thatcomes to mind is don't take it
personally.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
What do you mean to write?
Yeah, the first thing thatcomes to mind is don't take it
personally, but I think that'swhat do you mean by that?
Don't take it personally, well,like when you get Rejected.
Rejected, and when you getnotes and when you're told
you'll never make it in thisbusiness, all these things.
Even I was told that inadvertising you got to be
(34:31):
ayear-old guys.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Right, so we talked about the challenge.
What's the biggest reward?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
It's the people that I have gotten to work with and
have become close to thefunniest, brightest, sharpest
people on the planet, and Ididn't, you know, I had that
when I was talking about that,poolside with Lucy and Desi.
That's kind of what I wanted.
That's kind of what I wanted mylife to look like, and my life
(34:56):
is that.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Do you have a dream of writing a novel?
Like when you were back inwherever Germany, you said In
England.
In England.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
You do.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Yes, I have various outlines and titles and ideas.
All right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
We're going to look forward to it.
Thank you so much for your time.
That was a real good lesson inTV behind the scenes Cool my
pleasure.
That's a wrap for today.
If you have a comment orquestion or would like us to
cover a certain job, please letus know.
(35:33):
Visit our website athowmuchcanimakeinfo.
We would love to hear from you.
And, on your way out, don'tforget to subscribe and share
this episode with anyone who iscurious about their next job.
See you next time.
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