September 2, 2019 • 51 mins
Today I'm talking with artist and activist Kimberly Enjoli about the intersection of art and activism, how to support activist movements beyond being out in the streets, and why art is even more necessary in a deeply troubled world.
Some of the organizations discussed on this episode:
- NYC Shut It Down: Twitter | Facebook
- Equality for Flatbush
- Peoples Power Assemblies
Where to find Kimberly:
- @groundwork_zine on Twitter
- @sugarwaterartdept on Instagram
To support Ramsey Orta:
Sign the letter of support of Ramsey Orta's release on parole
Send letters to Ramsey:
Ramsey Orta 16A4200
Collins Correctional Facility
Middle Road p.o. box 340
Collins, NY 14034
*Must include his din # and your whole name and address on the envelope, or it may be sent back*
Donate to Ramsey via PayPal at OfficialRamseyOrta@gmail.com (can also email with any questions)
You can find a full transcript of today's episode at https://howtobecreative.org/?p=148
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:04):
You're listening to How to Be Creative, a podcast about
what it means to be creativeacross different disciplines,
industries, life circumstances,and career structures.
You'll learn tips for fittingcreativity into your daily life
and hear from a bunch ofdifferent people about how being
creative has helped them reachgoals, open doors, and live a
more rewarding or at least moreinteresting life.
(00:25):
I'm your host, Kat O'Leary, andI'm excited to introduce you to
some of my favorite creatives,as well as to the tools that
helped me get my most crucialwork done.
Kat (00:37):
So today I'm here with artist and activist Kimberly
Enjoli.
I'm so glad that you were ableto join me today.
Kimberly.
Thanks so much!
Kimberly (00:44):
Thank you!
Kat (00:45):
So we're both eating snacks and drinking seltzer.
As we're recording it's July20th, which in New York, you may
recall, was the first of whatwe're expecting to be two
100-degree days in a row at kindof the tail end of a really
(01:06):
horrible heat wave.
So we are somehow hanging inthere and staying alive.
But I brought Kimberly onbecause in addition to her like
actual artist and activistcredentials, we've been friends
for over a decade now.
We initially met in the c ommentsection of Jezebel.
(01:27):
c om, back when I feel likeJezebel was a pretty different
place from how it is right now.
But yeah, so we've actuallyknown each other I think
in-person for over a decade aswell.
So I think we'll just kind ofdive in.
So before we started recording,Kimberly and I were just kind of
hanging out and you had startedto talk about what I thought was
(01:49):
a really interesting idea ofkind of you having this sense
about yourself that you wantedto create, for lack of a better
word, that you wanted to"do dumbstuff" in addition to your real,
serious art.
Kimberly (02:06):
Right.
(02:06):
So do you remember what you were talking about before?
I was like,"Uh, can you justpause that so we can hit record?
'Cause I don't want to lose this."
Kimberly (02:13):
So it's funny because I was talking about this last
night to some other friends ofmine who I met through visual
art, which is something I onlyrecently started doing.
Um, like I've always been goodat it, but I wasn't actively,
I'd stopped drawing for a longtime or whatever.
(02:34):
So I was talking to some visualartist friends of mine about how
when I moved here, I wanted JohnC Reilly's career.
Kat (02:42):
Oh yeah.
Oh, that's a really, that's aninteresting analogy.
Okay.
Kimberly (02:46):
I love him because like, he's in Stepbrothers.
Wasn't he in Talladega Nights,too?
(02:54):
Yes, he's so good in Talladega nights.
That's what I think of whenyou're like John C.
Riley.
I'm like Talladega nights.
Kimberly (02:59):
Right.
But also, he was also in TheHours.
The first thing I saw him in wasChicago.
Like, he's clearly smart, but
Kat (03:08):
he's fantastic.
Kimberly (03:09):
He's-- a lot of his work is dumb, but like, it still
has value.
And I love it.
And like, that's basically whatI wanted.
Kat (03:18):
Oh, I love that.
And like, I don't know to whatdegree you're actually, I'm
realizing, I don't know to whatdegree you're still involved in
this, but for many years youwere an actor, right?
Kimberly (03:28):
I'm was, um, I was performing in the beginning, I
was doing not enough.
Um, admittedly, um, pretty earlyon I got kind of, I know nobody
likes auditioning, but I waslike, I hate auditioning.
I don't know why I'm doing it.
(03:49):
If I am capable of writing.
Like I rather just write my ownstuff and be in that.
Um, but I'm also a very slowwriter so I haven't given up on
it.
But until I'm done writing whatI'm writing, it's kind of on the
back burner.
Yeah.
And so I turned to other artforms so that I still get the
(04:13):
satisfaction of completingthings in the meantime.
Kat (04:17):
Yes.
Um, I love that.
And it's funny cause I think Ihave the reverse.
Um, well no, no, not really thereverse actually, but I don't,
so I still don't really think ofmyself as like a visual artist.
I definitely think of you as avisual artist.
Um, but for me, when I write, Iwrite long form fiction for the
most part, but I've started kindof dabbling in like different
(04:40):
aspects of visual arts.
So for example, I've starteddoing these alcohol ink pieces
that I can complete within likehalf an hour and then I'm done
with something.
I have a finished product and I,it feel I get this immediate
sense of accomplishment.
So like really understand that.
(05:00):
Like, that makes a lot of senseto me.
Um, but yeah, and like, sothat's kind of hard though when
it's like, oh, I want, I want todo this, but it's gonna come
later.
Once I've actually like done,I've, I'm done writing the piece
that I'm then going to perform.
Kimberly (05:14):
Right.
So more recently the things thatI've been able to consistently
finish are issues of azine thatI collaborate on with other
local activists.
Um, I usually describeGroundwork Zine as a love note
(05:38):
from New York City prisonabolitionists to our
communities.
Kat (05:42):
I love that.
I love that so much
Kimberly (05:47):
Thanks.
So something that's been reallyimportant to me is even though I
now think of it as my art, um,is that it is first and foremost
, um, a community outreach tool.
And I never want it to become,it was never not going to be
(06:07):
artistic, just because I'm notcapable of putting something out
that I don't think is pretty.
I'm always going to givewhatever I do that part matters.
But it's also something thatneeds to remain cheap to produce
(06:27):
because the purpose was alwaysfor it to be something that I
give out for free.
Um, the copies that people payfor are normally to like
reimburse me for art suppliesand to print more free copies.
So lately I've been trying toget back into doing art projects
(06:53):
that are not related to themovement, just because I never
want that line to get blurred.
Um, I think it's reallyimportant for, I just think it's
really important for whatevermovement work people do to
remain principled and neverbecome about like raising their
(07:15):
own profile.
Right.
It's like don't want, you don'twant to tie things that you're
doing for the purpose ofactivism to capitalism.
Right.
Or even just, yeah.
I just never want it to becomesomething that is self-service.
Yeah.
Um, so lately I've been tryingto make time to do other
(07:37):
projects at the same time, whichis tough because now I have all
of these ideas that I usuallyend up pushing to the back
burner to finish the zine.
But yeah, that's, that'ssomething that's been really
important to me lately, isgetting back to making just
(07:59):
silly sort of meaninglessnonsense.
(08:05):
Um, that's awesome.
I love that.
I mean, I think yeah, likehaving room to play without sort
of a greater purpose behind itis really important to me as
well.
And I think additionally, whenyou are creating art that serves
a movement and an importantmovement like prison abolition,
I think creating art, and I knowthis term self care is like so
(08:29):
overused and it's used in a very, uh, it's used in a very like
take a bubble bath, like light acandle, whatever kind of way.
But I do think like also whenyou think about like, like self
care that's actually valuable.
And I believe there is, um, Ithink Audre Lord has done some
writing on this that I, I'velived perfectly honest, I
(08:50):
haven't read yet.
It's been like, it's a one ofthose things that's on my list
of things to read.
But I think part of what shegets at is more like self-care
as a means of sustainingyourself so that you can serve
that greater purpose.
Kat (09:04):
And apologies to Audre Lorde, cause I'm sure I
completely just butchered whatyou were trying to get at.
But yeah, no, I do think that'sso important.
And then it actually made methink of another question, which
is, so you and I both kind of doour artistic pursuits, like in
the margins of like, we bothhave to work full time to like
(09:25):
support ourselves in New YorkCity.
And so with that, like how doyou, how do you carve out the
time to like, do all thesethings that are important to you
and how do you think about, andwe touched on this a little bit,
I know it's really challengingand we can talk about it to
whatever degree you want, butlike how do you prioritize,
(09:45):
like, within a life, like thereare certain things that you just
absolutely have to do.
And some of those things arebeing in a specific location to
earn money from someone else.
Um, so how do you think aboutgetting done the work that you
need to get done within those,um, you know, kind of the, uh,
(10:07):
constraints?
Kimberly (10:12):
Mostly I do, I'm going to be honest in a way that I
shouldn't, as someone who is jobhunting.
(10:19):
Totally fine.
Kimberly (10:21):
I do a lot of it at work.
Um, and my justification, rightis like most people are not
actually doing their job thatentire time, right?
Kat (10:32):
Yeah.
Kimberly (10:32):
And so it's like, it's just as easy for me to whip out
a notepad and draft the contentfor the next scene as it is for
me to be on Twitter.
Right?
Like neither one of those thingsare what I'm supposed to be
doing, but I might as well dothe thing.
Um, but then I has more value tome.
(10:53):
And I think most people will pick scrolling twitter, so,
like, congratulations to you foractually having that discipline.
Kimberly (10:59):
Thank you.
Um, so yet, uh, I get a lot ofit done at work and I try to
make it so that I'm trying toget better at devoting long
trucks, chunks of time to doingthings because I know that the
amount of work I want to put outis going to require me to spend
more time than I have in thepast.
(11:20):
But what I do is in the earlystages of a project, I just
snatch like 20 minutes here andthere throughout my day to write
sort of the first couple ofdrafts of something.
(11:41):
And it's really only once myidea about what I want something
to look like is really clear tome that I'm like, okay, now I'm
going to devote some time tothis on these specific days to
finish it.
Yeah.
Um, it's not quite a disciplinedway of working.
(12:02):
I mean it's been working for me,um, but it's very much more
inconsistent with the, theworking daily on something in
the early stage.
But honestly, at the end it'smore of a, now I have enough
work and I'm tired of not beingdone with it.
(12:25):
So this week, every day I'mgoing to the print shop and
working on it until it'sfinished.
Kat (12:31):
Yup.
Kimberly (12:31):
Um, so that's kind of my process for now.
Kat (12:35):
I really like that.
Um, especially because, so oneof the things I've been thinking
about a lot is this concept ofbalance, which I think is total
bullshit.
I don't like balance.
I don't value balance.
And yet for most of my adultlife, I have felt like it's
something I'm supposed to strivefor.
And Nicole Antoinette, she's thehost of, um, the Real Talk Radio
(13:01):
podcast, but she led thisretreat that I attended a couple
of weeks ago.
And something that she says islike, you can have balance or
strive for balance, but itshould be, it's not like every
week or every day I do thesethree buckets and I devote the
same percentages.
It's more like over a year youmight have like, oh, there was
(13:23):
that one, that two week periodwhere I hammered out however
many pages of a draft or therewas that month where I was
really focused on getting outthe next issue of my zine or
whatever it is.
And I think like for me atleast, that's a healthier way to
think about it.
And it makes me feel less likeI'm doing something wrong.
When I do have, like, I haveperiods of extremely intense
(13:46):
activity followed by like two orthree months where I'm not doing
anything.
Um, and like the end at the endof the day, like you need those
rest periods too.
But also like, I produce some ofmy best stuff when I'm just like
throwing out everything else inmy life and just focusing on the
one thing.
Kimberly (14:06):
Yeah.
That definitely resonates withme.
One of the things I've beendoing with the zine and at first
this was an accident, right?
Because and mostly plan thepublishing schedule around
(14:27):
actions, right?
So I put one out in the springthat tends to just be whatever
I've been thinking about.
And then the summer--
Kat (14:37):
What do you mean by actions?
You mean like a specificprotest--
Kimberly (14:40):
Right, so in the summer, so in the spring I kind
of put out just whatever generalthing or it might be like the
past couple of years it'sactually been the study guy too.
Um, uprisings.
Um, yeah, like slave rebellion.
Cool.
Yeah.
Kat (14:59):
So you've done some really cool like history, like kind of
edification type of zines that Ifeel like are really valuable
because frankly our Americaneducation system is not teaching
us about a lot of the mostimportant things that have
happened in the history of thiscountry.
Sorry to interrupt you.
Kimberly (15:16):
Oh, you're fine.
Um, so yeah, the spring onetends to be kind of a freebie,
but then the summer one isusually timed to come out the
day of the Sandra Bland Demo,which is always she July13.
Um, and then the fall whenusually coincides with the
(15:40):
African American Day parade inHarlem.
And I usually take the winteroff to go back to binge-watching
television.
(15:47):
Yeah, hibernating--
Kimberly (15:51):
And tweeting memes Yup .
So, um, I'm trying to decide ifI want to start using winter to
work on the sort of joke zenesor if I want winter to continue
to be my break.
Yeah.
And just figure out how tojuggle more than one creative
project at a time during theyear.
Kat (16:14):
I love that.
That's really interesting.
Um, yeah, I think, I don't, Inever think kind of
strategically about what oneseason is going to look like
versus the next.
It's sort of more like, like,um, I'll be like, oh, well,
January I'll, I'll do somethingbig.
Or like this month I expected tobe a lot more, um, productive,
(16:35):
let's say, than I have been.
Um, that's what I think I'vebeen a little better about
accepting that in myself.
Um, but I'd never like, winter'sreally hard for me.
I get like terrible seasonaldepression and like I got
nothing done in the winter.
Like January, I just killed it.
And then February throughprobably April, I really,
(16:57):
whatever the opposite of killedit is.
Okay.
So one of the other things Iwanted to talk about was, and
we've touched a little bit on,um, sort of how your art
intersects with your activistwork.
Um, and I love that.
And kind of a related questionis, why is art important?
(17:20):
Why is art crucial and notfrivolous and like really
necessary in a world that lookshow ours looks right now, which
is, I mean I always say it's onfire.
Kimberly (17:30):
Yeah.
Um, so what's funny is my answerto that is not necessarily like
the one I was thinking it wasgoing to be.
Um, for whatever reason just nowI thought about a conversation
that I had with a coworker ofmine who's also an artist.
(17:52):
He's a photographer.
Um, and we were talking abouthow the way most of us are
educated kind of has a lot ofpeople feeling like-- we were
(18:14):
talking about how a lot ofpeople don't think that they
understand abstract art.
Right.
And it sounds like I'm giving anoff-topic answer, but I'll get
there eventually.
We were talking about how a lotof people feel like they don't
understand abstract art or don'tunderstand experimental art.
(18:38):
Um, and I was talking about aconversation that I had with a
friend of mine who's a reallytalented theater performer.
And he was like, I hateexperimental art.
I hate, you know, abstractstuff.
I don't get it.
And it's frustrating to not getit.
(18:58):
And I was like, obviously Ican't tell you whether or not
you're getting something unlesswe're looking at a specific
piece.
But I really think that mostpeople who don't think they
understand abstract art do, buttwo things kind of make people
(19:23):
feel insecure about the way theyinterpret art, right?
One is the way that we're taughtin school and the way we come
away from things feeling like,"Oh, if I can't write a five
paragraph essay demonstrating,you know, what this piece is
about, then I don't understandit." And I also think that
(19:43):
school teaches us to think ofart simply as things that are
pretty and fun and that make usfeel good.
Um, and so when we encounter artthat's not pretty, or it doesn't
make us feel good, we think thatwe don't get it.
But a lot of times that art isabout something else, right?
(20:03):
Like maybe a piece of art thatmakes you uncomfortable is
supposed to, and if you'reuncomfortable with a piece of
art that's supposed to make youuncomfortable, then you do
actually get it right.
And the fact that you're notable to write a paper on it
doesn't mean you don't.
Yeah.
Oh, I love that.
Oh my gosh, that's so good.
I've never heard anyone explainit quite like that.
Yeah, thanks.
(20:24):
That makes a lot of sense.
Um, and so I think that thereason my mind went there to
answer the question is I thinkthat if we're thinking of art as
frivolous, then we're reallyonly thinking about art that's
pretty, and that, that's not theonly art that's being made,
right?
So, art, if anything, might bemore necessary now, because
(20:47):
everything that we are trying todo, um, to make the world
different is gonna requireimagination.
Right?
And so art is where we use ourimaginations both to hash out
the problems of the currentworld and to envision, you know,
what the future could look like.
Kat (21:11):
That's an amazing answer.
Thanks.
I was like, wow, that wasincredible.
Um, I feel like I just learnedan incredible amount of stuff
from you.
So kind of connected to theintersection of art and
activism.
Um, so, and this is somethingthat you and a few other of my
creative friends came over forbrunch a few months ago.
(21:33):
Um, and we, uh, we had thisconversation about kind of what
activism looks like and, youknow, one of my concerns is
like, I don't feel like I'm goodat activism.
So I'm good at volunteer work.
I'm good at like going andmaking a difference in maybe one
person's life or a small groupof people's lives.
(21:55):
I have attended protests, I'veattended marches and
participated in them.
I don't feel like I'm great atthat work.
And then I feel bad because Ifeel like it doesn't feel like
something that's for me, butthen I feel like I feel like I'm
a terrible person for notparticipating in more.
And not to make this about meand my, my feelings, because I'm
(22:22):
trying to ask a question here,but one of the things we talked
about and I felt like this issuch a valuable conversation was
ways that people who like mefeel like they are bad at
activism can nonetheless supportactivists in other ways that
maybe aren't necessarily likebeing out there every weekend
(22:42):
marching or every week night orwhatever it is.
Kimberly (22:45):
Sure.
Um, so what I would say to thatis one, um, everyone has like a
different role to play inmovement work, right?
And so like of course anytime wecan get extra bodies in the
street, it's great, but at theend of the day, there's so much
(23:09):
that goes into what we do beyondmarching.
Um, so sitting out at a protestis totally fine because the
other things that are involvedare like, I know that raising
awareness isn't enough.
And there are some people wholike lean way too heavily on
(23:31):
that as though it's enough.
But speaking as a grassrootsperson, there is something to be
said for amplifying the work ofpeople who don't have
advertising budgets.
And this isn't even me.
(23:52):
You know, coming for any groupideologically, but it's just, um
, in a practical sense, right.
Your local grassroots organizerdoes not have the name
recognition of, like, the ACLU.
You know what I mean?
Kat (24:08):
That's a great point..
And also probably those people,those organizations are, their
knowledge is so, is probably alot more specialized and
therefore they are positioned tomake a real impact on the issues
that they focus on, but theylack the resources.
Kimberly (24:30):
Right.
And so like, and it can be hard,right, to figure out even who
your local grassroots organizersare.
That's actually my next question.
And it's another reason westarted the zine.
Right.
Um, the zine, I'm always likeconfused about how specific I
want to be about things.
(24:51):
In this case I'm going to bevague.
Okay.
Um, but Groundwork Zine started,um, because there was a protest
that me and some friends went to, um, in the wake of a local
person being murdered.
(25:12):
And there was a clearideological divide within the
family, where half of the familywas very radical and the other
half of the family was beingfriendly to the police who had
zip ties on their hips, ready toarrest people at a candlelight
vigil.
Kat (25:32):
Wow.
Kimberly (25:33):
And that was horrifying.
Um, and so those of us who werethere as radical organizers were
like, it would be nice to have away to stay in touch with the
(25:54):
people who are here who are themore radical element because
they want it to march and partof the family talk them out of
doing it.
And we were like, if we hadsomething to give them, it would
be a completelynon-confrontational way of like
saying, Hey, we hear what you'retalking about.
(26:17):
We're not here to tell you whatto do at all, but if want to get
in touch with us, here's ourinfo.
So that's one thing that'simportant on our end is
organizers.
And this can be hard, which tiesinto like one of my answers to
the question, right.
(26:38):
But as organizers, one thingthat is important is to have
materials and you know, and thatcan be hard, right?
You need access to practicalthings like a copier.
You need like the actual time todraft something.
But if we have info, when wehave an action, having people
(27:00):
spread that to helps.
So if you do like go to a marchor you know, see people doing
outreach or tabling or anything,um, grabbing their info and
blasting it out helps, I'mfollowing them on social media
so that you know, the real scoopon what's happening and not just
(27:25):
what you hear on the local news,right?
Kat (27:26):
Right.
Kimberly (27:26):
And that's important because, okay, here's an example
of what I mean by that, right?
Because a lot of times when yousay that people kind of roll
their eyes cause they're like,oh here we go with the
conspiracy theories, but--
Kat (27:39):
But it's really not right.
We're inundated with spin andlike also, and a lot of like
well intentioned--.
(27:48):
PR is an industry like hello.
I mean, it wouldn't be anindustry of, people weren't
trying to tell a different storyfrom one the facts tell.
Kimberly (27:55):
And even well intentioned people like
accidentally spread it.
Right.
And to give an example of that.
Right.
So we just came off of the fiveyear anniversary of Eric
Garner's murder and the DOJ likethe statute of limitations on
filing the federal charges isfive years.
So they let that run out.
Kat (28:14):
Yeah, of course they did.
Kimberly (28:15):
Even well intentioned people who are on our side are
like, he shouldn't have beenkilled for selling on text
cigarettes.
Okay.
This cigarettes thing was thepretext for the cop stopping him
on that day.
But on that particular day,right.
Eric Garner actually didn't haveany cigarettes.
(28:35):
He had just broken up a fight.
Kat (28:38):
Hmm.
Um, and you, yeah, and the, thestory you hear and it, the story
you hear, as you were saying,from well-intentioned people who
are like on the correct side ofthe issue, all you hear about is
he was selling loose cigarettes.
Right.
Really, I mean, until right now,I had never heard this other
version of this story that isapparently, you know, the, the
real version that no one'shearing.
Kimberly (28:57):
Right.
And the only ones who reallytalk about it are grassroots
organizers who like sat in onthat trial who like write Ramsey
or die in prison all the time.
That's another horrible story.
Right?
Yeah.
Um, and so as much as it isimportant to make sure that
we're not treating, raisingawareness, like it's the only
(29:22):
work, it is work and it stillneeds to get done.
So anytime that you can amplify,um, info coming from people
without the media budget of, youknow, anyone else, including,
you know, the police, obviouslyyou have, you know, the
journalists that they can feedtheir version of the story too
(29:43):
unchecked.
Um, amplifying those voices isalways going to be important.
Um, looping back to the questionof, you know, organizers needing
to have materials, if you candonate to local grassroots
organizers, one of the thingsthat the money that you give
does, is help them pay to printmaterials.
(30:07):
Um, another thing that you cando is if you have design skills
and no one in the group does,like lending your design skills
to helping them with logos,shirts, stickers, posters,
flyers.
Um, another thing I mentionedRamsey Orta, right?
(30:29):
So another thing that really--
Kat (30:30):
I was gonna I was gonna stop you just in case anyone
listening is not familiar in thedetails.
So Ramsey Orta, um, is in jailfor filming the murder of Eric
Garner and what you might, youprobably know a lot more about
this than I do cause I don'tunderstand how it's possible
that he has been in prisoned onthat does not seem like a
(30:52):
violation to me.
Kimberly (30:53):
Well, they nailed him for something else, right?
(30:53):
But that's really why the cops paid attention to him.
Kimberly (31:00):
Exactly.
Kat (31:01):
So yeah, the only person who's gone to jail for anything
connected to Eric Garner is theman who filmed it.
Kimberly (31:07):
The person who supplied evidence.
Um, so writing Ramsey Ortaputting money on his commissary,
which he does need.
Kat (31:15):
Actually if you, if I can get that information from you, I
will put that in a, I'll putthat in the show notes for sure.
Um, I love that.
That's great.
That's something I neverwould've thought of that I will
happily sit down and, and writehim something and, um, and also
share information so others cando the same and yeah.
Ideally give money as well.
Kimberly (31:33):
So that one's important.
Um, speaking of local activists,right.
Um, if you live in New York,you're probably familiar with
the Swipe it Forward campaign.
Um, if you're not, I'll stillgive you some background.
Right.
So definitely fair hikes.
Kat (31:51):
I mean, I think it's a good example of like the role of
creativity and resourcefulnessin activism, right?
Regardless.
And it might, it might even forpeople not in New York, I feel
like it could spur other ideas.
Kimberly (32:04):
Yeah.
For sure.
Like, I want to say that, um, DCorganizers were doing something
similar based on that.
But, um, the fare hikes, um,that had been happening in New
York, as the service getscrappier and crappier has made
(32:24):
the subway increasinglyunaffordable for a lot of
people.
Um, of course people try to getaround that by hopping the
turnstile.
Um, people of, you know, askedfirst for swipes, which can also
get them in trouble with thepolice.
So a lot of grassrootsorganizers, a few years ago, a
(32:48):
few years ago, got together andcame up with the swipe it
forward campaign, which is, youknow, other regular working
class, New Yorkers pooling theirmoney to do these actions in the
subway where, you know, for aset amount of time, they swipe
(33:08):
people coming into the subwayfor free while informing them,
you know, of why if you have anunlimited card, you should swipe
people in on the way out.
Um, and you should look forpeople who need swipes and
volunteer it so that they don'tget in trouble for asking.
Kat (33:24):
So That's interesting.
So I will do it if I seesomeone.
Um, but often I know often theperson will, they might not ask
verbally, but they'll, you know,make kind of the sweeping motion
with their hands.
So is it illegal to ask for aswipe but it's not illegal to
share your swipe.
So that's wow, that's a greatlaw, she says sarcastically.
(33:48):
Um, yeah.
So I didn't realize that.
I actually didn't realize it wasstill illegal to ask.
I knew it was legal for me togive them a swipe.
That's, so, that's great.
Knowing to look what to look forI think is really important.
Cause if someone asks me, I'llof course do it.
Kimberly (34:01):
But yeah, if you can, if you can beat them to even
having to ask that, then theyknow.
Yeah.
(34:07):
Then there's no chance they get in trouble.
Kimberly (34:08):
Yeah.
Um, so the swipe it forwardcampaign swipes people into the
subway for free while raisingawareness of the way fare
beating is used to funnel peopleinto, you know, the criminal
system.
Right.
Um, the, the fare is what,$3 nowand a ticket for fair beating is
(34:32):
$100.
If you don't have the$3?
You definitely don't have ahundred days.
Another.
(34:38):
It's basically just another great example of how we punish
people for being poor.
Right.
And then make them even poorerand then, and then put them in
prison.
And then, um, is this the typeof violation where you can end
up in jail without a way out?
Kimberly (34:57):
Yeah.
Like, yeah.
(34:58):
So this basically just like filter really does truly get
someone into the prison systemfor the crime quote unquote of
not being able to afford a$3swipe.
Kimberly (35:09):
Right.
And if you're undocumented, itcan like actually out you as
well, which is terrifying.
Um, so anytime you see localgrassroots organizers organizing
a swipe campaign, donating togroups, like why accountability,
(35:29):
um, will help you know, some ofthat money go towards those
campaigns to help people out.
Um, and to raise awareness aboutthat and try and shift the
culture so that more and morepeople are calling for not only
for people not to becriminalized in our subway
system, but also there's aradical push going on right now
(35:51):
for like free, accessibletransportation for all.
Um, yeah, so like joining thatpush is a good way to get
involved.
Um, for people who are familiarwith NYC Shut it Down.
Who shortly after Eric Garner'smurder became the longest
(36:13):
running resistance action in NewYork City.
Every Monday they would take tothe streets and do an
unpermitted march for someonewho had been killed by the
state.
Um, they recently, after fiveyears, which is really good,
pivoted to the Feed the Peopleprogram, which takes place in
(36:35):
East Harlem and in the Bronx.
So if you follow NYC Shut itDown on Facebook or Twitter.
(36:43):
I'll add that in the show notes as well.
Kimberly (36:45):
Um, you can get info on how you can either donate
money to Shut it Down, that goesto helping them make the food
for the food serves that theydo.
Or you can let them know thatyou have gently used clothes and
blankets and other things togive away or like tampons, pads,
(37:07):
school supplies, whateverthey're collecting.
Um, they coordinate pickup.
So you can just drop them a lineand say, hey, I have some stuff
and they'll figure out how toget it.
Kat (37:18):
Um, and I think actually that's kind of a, that's sort of
a"safe" way for some people to,to participate in activism that
still has tangible impact.
Exactly.
That's great.
Yeah.
Cause I suspect there are a lotof people out there for whom
like, they might not feel quiteready to even join a protest at
(37:42):
all.
Right.
Um, but yeah, and I think, Idunno, the more kind of
incremental baby steps peoplecan take toward becoming more
aware and getting involved, Ithink the better.
Kimberly (37:52):
Supporting local tenant organizers is also good.
Um, supporting a group likeEquality for Flatbush, which is
a local or that supports thedollar-van drivers, the street
vendors.
Um, the local businesses who areat risk of being, you know,
(38:14):
having their rents jacked up andbeing pushed out of Flatbush,
um, supporting people who arestanding up against their
landlords--that's a good localorg to support.
So yeah, just like funding,funding things or donating
skills if you don't really cash.
Kat (38:36):
That's great.
Yeah.
And so it's now the, now you'remore on the side of helping
amplify, um, you know, get theword out, getting the word out
about organizations, grassrootsorganizations that people might
know now know about.
Ehen you were first startingout, like how did you learn
about some of theseorganizations?
Kimberly (38:54):
Totally by accident.
Kat (38:57):
Yeah.
Okay.
So it's, I feel like it's oftenthat way.
I was wondering if it's like apush or pull thing.
Kimberly (39:01):
No, I think it's by accident.
I think that's why like the, asmuch as we can, like pushing
whoever we do know is the onlyway this stuff really goes
viral.
(39:22):
Um, I found, so I'm kind of justa general member now, but I used
to be active in a group calledPeople's Power Assembly NYC.
Um, and New York's not the onlyplace with People's Power
Assembly.
It's in other cities too, butthat's the first group I got
involved with and I've foundthem because in the beginning,
(39:49):
when I first started protesting,I would always go by myself and
I wasn't always available at thebeginning of a protest.
So like I would miss wheneverthey were giving out flyers
anyway because I got off work atseven and a lot of things were
called for six.
Yeah.
So I kind of just had to figureout where protests were.
(40:10):
So what I would do is I wouldjust guess based off, while I
know this is a majorthoroughfare.
Kat (40:16):
Yeah.
So it's going to go throughthere.
Yeah.
Kimberly (40:18):
So I will just wait there until I see cop cars and
then whichever direction I seethe cop cars going, I know that
must be where the protest is.
Wow.
So I would do that for a while.
Um, and so that's how I made itto protests, but I still hadn't
met anyone yet.
And so then I got kind offrustrated that I was having
such a hard time meeting people.
(40:40):
So I put up a Facebook page, I'mlooking for other people who
were having trouble, um,figuring out how to connect to
protests.
Kat (40:53):
Sorry if you can hear that music.
I'm on a busy avenue in Brooklynand some sounds sometimes pass
by while I'm recording.
So yeah,
Kimberly (41:02):
So I put that up and not a lot of people could come
because since I wasn't connectedto any other groups, I didn't
know that there was anotherevent happening that day that
everybody would be at.
Um, but one of the people whocame, um, is one of the people
who went on to become one of thearchitects of swipe it forward.
(41:24):
Shannon, from whyaccountability.
But she came because she waslike, there is an event today,
but I'm coming to this anywaybecause, you know, I, I felt
like doing something other thanmarching on today.
Um, and she was like, I have agroup, but we're in the Bronx
and you live in Brooklyn.
There's an organization I thinkwould be a great fit for you.
(41:45):
It's called People's powerassembly.
And then I started going tomeetings.
And that's why when I did jointhe group, they had fliers.
But that is why more flyers wasalways my car, you know, because
that is the only way people arereally going to know how to find
us.
(42:05):
Like right in the fire.
They follow you on Facebook orTwitter and then like you can
stay in touch with them.
Yeah,
Kat (42:12):
it's great.
And I feel like, yeah, whenyou're finding, when, when
people are likely to find outabout you by accident, the best
thing you can do a lot of thetime is just, just give them
more opportunities to, you know,kind of stumble upon, uh, upon
your work and your message.
Right.
That's great.
Um, wow, that's really, reallyhelpful.
Um, okay, so shifting gears alittle bit, um, unless there's
(42:39):
anything else that we haven'ttalked about that you feel like
we should touch on with regardto activism?
Kimberly (42:44):
Not necessarily.
No.
Kat (42:51):
Okay.
So you had tweeted a while back,I guess right before I sent you
an email and was like, hey, doyou want to do this?
Um, about not letting otherpeople change your weather?
And I really loved that conceptand I was wondering if you would
mind talking a little bit aboutthat and kind of how it guides
your interactions with peopleand sort of how you manage sort
(43:14):
of unpleasantries that we allhave to deal with.
Um, just as a function of beinghuman on planet earth.
Yeah.
Kimberly (43:20):
So I am really dramatic and
Kat (43:25):
Oh my God, no one believe.
Okay.
No one listening to this isgoing to believe that cause
you're like, you just like, Idon't know, just like this
entire interview I've beenthinking about how you think so
much more linearly than I do.
I am like crazy all over theplace.
Like I interrupt myself to makepoints other than the one I was
making.
I don't think anyone who doesn'tknow you, who's listening so far
(43:48):
is going to believe that you'redramatic but continue.
Kimberly (43:51):
Um, so I used to be very, like, anytime anything
would happen, yeah, my day isruined.
Kat (43:56):
Oh, okay.
Yup.
Kimberly (43:59):
Um, and I guess that like the shifts started a few
years ago when I worked a jobthat was like, I would work from
like six to one, um, and thenhave the rest of the day to
myself, you know, and at thejob, right, things would happen
and I'd be like, this ishorrible.
(44:20):
I hate my life today.
So that, you know, and then Iwould get off work and I would
go do something.
And by the end of the day, Ialmost forgotten that the first
part of the day was horrible.
Kat (44:34):
Right.
Kimberly (44:35):
Um, and so at first it became, uh, okay, I'm gonna make
a resolution to not say that I'mhaving a bad day anymore.
Um, I'll say like, oh, I'mhaving a bad morning, or I had a
bad afternoon.
But like, I learned that likesomething horrible happening in
the morning doesn't necessarilyhave to ruin my day, you know,
(44:57):
depending on what it was andwhether it has any lasting
consequences.
Um, so that was first.
And then, um, more recently I'vejust started to feel like a lot
of the things that I was writingoff as like ruining my day were
(45:20):
things that ultimately didn'thave any like, other
ramifications.
Right.
They might've been frustratingexperiences, but like they
weren't going to have anylasting effect.
Kat (45:31):
Yeah.
Kimberly (45:32):
Or whoever did it, like wasn't in a position to get
me fired or like anything likethat.
So I was like, I shouldn't, youknow, now my qualification for
like, what constitutes likeruining my morning or whatever
is right.
If it doesn't have like anyeffects beyond the moment
(45:54):
itself, then like, I should notget so mad, you know?
So I started doing that and whatit felt like for me was exactly
that.
Right?
Like it felt like, okay, theweather around me doesn't have
(46:16):
to be shitty because one personis really annoying even if
they're awful.
Right.
Um, and it's not even a, it'snot like I became this
enlightened person who doesn'tengage in pettiness, but it's a
like, be petty back in thatmoment and then move on from it.
(46:40):
Um, if it doesn't have any realweight.
Kat (46:43):
Yeah.
And just let it go.
Right.
It can be really hard to do andit's, it's definitely a process
of retraining your brain so thatit works that way versus the way
of, I guess, I think in a lot ofcases like your mind wants to
attach to those little pettygrievances, right.
And hold onto them and like kindof build an identity around
(47:05):
them.
And then it's like you'respending the entire day in this.
And at least for me, it oftenmanifests as like this victim
mindset where like, oh, Ispilled my coffee and then, um,
I didn't get a seat on thesubway or I got on a car that
wasn't air conditioned, likerose.
All these like in the grandscheme of things, very tiny,
(47:26):
inconsequential things.
But then you let them turn intothis idea of like, the world
hates me or, yeah.
And I, I kind of had a similar,um, like change of mindset over
the past few years where Idefinitely used to let really
small things just destroyeverything else.
(47:47):
Um, and, and I think one thingthat's helped me is like, um,
one, I have this idea that Ithink I stole from, um, this
author Byron Katie, which islike about not arguing with
reality.
Like you can't change the factthat, you know, your customer
was a jerk this morning or, um,you know, your, uh, someone
(48:12):
almost hit you while you were inthe crosswalk because drivers
are terrible.
Um, but, um, you can controllike you can, you can kind of
put that in a container where itdoesn't pervade everything else
about your life.
And in doing so, like you'rejust kind of accept like it's a,
(48:35):
it's really acceptance, right?
It's like, oh, this shitty thinghappened and it was shitty.
And then I just sort of likeobserve like, all right, well
how did that, how do I feelabout that?
And then it's like, all right,well, I can continue feeling
bitter about it.
That doesn't change that ithappened.
And it also in most cases won'timpact whether it happens again
(48:56):
or not, especially when it'ssomething that's out of your
control.
So I really, I really love that.
And I think it's, I think thatit can be tempting to think
like, oh, well that's just likegrowing up and whatever.
But I know a lot of people ourage who like really have not
mastered this remotely.
Like there are a lot of peoplewho let these petty grievances
really just take overeverything.
And, um, I, I feel like yes,there are certain things about
(49:21):
my life that have changedtangibly in the last few years,
but I think the, my life is alot better now than it used to
be.
And I would say the biggestreason for that is because I've
had this mindset shift where Ijust don't let shit like that
bother me on the level that itused to.
So I really, really related tothat.
And I, I love the concept of, ofweather.
(49:41):
So I feel like I've learned somuch from you in this short
conversation, even having knownyou for a relatively long period
of time, um, and following yourwork.
Um, so I will put a lot of stuffin the show notes for people who
want to follow up on some of thethings that you've talked about.
Um, where can people find you onsocial media if they want to
(50:03):
follow you?
Um, where's the best place?
Kimberly (50:06):
So, um, my horrible tweets, no, I'm actually not
recommend my horror.
Okay.
Good.
Good tweets.
Okay.
Groundwork Zine.
I'm on Twitter.
Great.
Cool.
It won't be hard to figure outhow to find my horrible tweet.
Yeah.
And then on Instagram,@sugarwaterartdept, which is
(50:29):
kind of the umbrella for likeall of my art projects.
Awesome.
That's great.
Kat (50:34):
So hopefully people will have a chance to check both of
those out, um, along with someof the other things that I drop
into the show notes.
But Kimberly, thank you so much.
I feel like this, I expectedthis conversation to be
incredible and illuminating andI feel like it's nonetheless
like surpassed my expectationsand, um, I just feel really
inspired right now, so thankyou.
(50:56):
I'm so glad you were able tojoin me today.
Kimberly (50:58):
Yay.
Outro (51:03):
So that's this week's episode of how to be creative.
As always, you can find shownotes, including a complete
episode transcript and links toeverything discussed at
howtobecreative.org.
You're listening to How to Be Creative, a podcast about
what it means to be creativeacross different disciplines,
industries, life circumstances,and career structures.
You'll learn tips for fittingcreativity into your daily life
and hear from a bunch ofdifferent people about how being
creative has helped them reachgoals, open doors, and live a
more rewarding or at least moreinteresting life.
(00:25):
I'm your host, Kat O'Leary, andI'm excited to introduce you to
some of my favorite creatives,as well as to the tools that
helped me get my most crucialwork done.
Kat (00:37):
So today I'm here with artist and activist Kimberly
Enjoli.
I'm so glad that you were ableto join me today.
Kimberly.
Thanks so much!
Kimberly (00:44):
Thank you!
Kat (00:45):
So we're both eating snacks and drinking seltzer.
As we're recording it's July20th, which in New York, you may
recall, was the first of whatwe're expecting to be two
100-degree days in a row at kindof the tail end of a really
(01:06):
horrible heat wave.
So we are somehow hanging inthere and staying alive.
But I brought Kimberly onbecause in addition to her like
actual artist and activistcredentials, we've been friends
for over a decade now.
We initially met in the c ommentsection of Jezebel.
(01:27):
c om, back when I feel likeJezebel was a pretty different
place from how it is right now.
But yeah, so we've actuallyknown each other I think
in-person for over a decade aswell.
So I think we'll just kind ofdive in.
So before we started recording,Kimberly and I were just kind of
hanging out and you had startedto talk about what I thought was
(01:49):
a really interesting idea ofkind of you having this sense
about yourself that you wantedto create, for lack of a better
word, that you wanted to"do dumbstuff" in addition to your real,
serious art.
Kimberly (02:06):
Right.
(02:06):
So do you remember what you were talking about before?
I was like,"Uh, can you justpause that so we can hit record?
'Cause I don't want to lose this."
Kimberly (02:13):
So it's funny because I was talking about this last
night to some other friends ofmine who I met through visual
art, which is something I onlyrecently started doing.
Um, like I've always been goodat it, but I wasn't actively,
I'd stopped drawing for a longtime or whatever.
(02:34):
So I was talking to some visualartist friends of mine about how
when I moved here, I wanted JohnC Reilly's career.
Kat (02:42):
Oh yeah.
Oh, that's a really, that's aninteresting analogy.
Okay.
Kimberly (02:46):
I love him because like, he's in Stepbrothers.
Wasn't he in Talladega Nights,too?
(02:54):
Yes, he's so good in Talladega nights.
That's what I think of whenyou're like John C.
Riley.
I'm like Talladega nights.
Kimberly (02:59):
Right.
But also, he was also in TheHours.
The first thing I saw him in wasChicago.
Like, he's clearly smart, but
Kat (03:08):
he's fantastic.
Kimberly (03:09):
He's-- a lot of his work is dumb, but like, it still
has value.
And I love it.
And like, that's basically whatI wanted.
Kat (03:18):
Oh, I love that.
And like, I don't know to whatdegree you're actually, I'm
realizing, I don't know to whatdegree you're still involved in
this, but for many years youwere an actor, right?
Kimberly (03:28):
I'm was, um, I was performing in the beginning, I
was doing not enough.
Um, admittedly, um, pretty earlyon I got kind of, I know nobody
likes auditioning, but I waslike, I hate auditioning.
I don't know why I'm doing it.
(03:49):
If I am capable of writing.
Like I rather just write my ownstuff and be in that.
Um, but I'm also a very slowwriter so I haven't given up on
it.
But until I'm done writing whatI'm writing, it's kind of on the
back burner.
Yeah.
And so I turned to other artforms so that I still get the
(04:13):
satisfaction of completingthings in the meantime.
Kat (04:17):
Yes.
Um, I love that.
And it's funny cause I think Ihave the reverse.
Um, well no, no, not really thereverse actually, but I don't,
so I still don't really think ofmyself as like a visual artist.
I definitely think of you as avisual artist.
Um, but for me, when I write, Iwrite long form fiction for the
most part, but I've started kindof dabbling in like different
(04:40):
aspects of visual arts.
So for example, I've starteddoing these alcohol ink pieces
that I can complete within likehalf an hour and then I'm done
with something.
I have a finished product and I,it feel I get this immediate
sense of accomplishment.
So like really understand that.
(05:00):
Like, that makes a lot of senseto me.
Um, but yeah, and like, sothat's kind of hard though when
it's like, oh, I want, I want todo this, but it's gonna come
later.
Once I've actually like done,I've, I'm done writing the piece
that I'm then going to perform.
Kimberly (05:14):
Right.
So more recently the things thatI've been able to consistently
finish are issues of azine thatI collaborate on with other
local activists.
Um, I usually describeGroundwork Zine as a love note
(05:38):
from New York City prisonabolitionists to our
communities.
Kat (05:42):
I love that.
I love that so much
Kimberly (05:47):
Thanks.
So something that's been reallyimportant to me is even though I
now think of it as my art, um,is that it is first and foremost
, um, a community outreach tool.
And I never want it to become,it was never not going to be
(06:07):
artistic, just because I'm notcapable of putting something out
that I don't think is pretty.
I'm always going to givewhatever I do that part matters.
But it's also something thatneeds to remain cheap to produce
(06:27):
because the purpose was alwaysfor it to be something that I
give out for free.
Um, the copies that people payfor are normally to like
reimburse me for art suppliesand to print more free copies.
So lately I've been trying toget back into doing art projects
(06:53):
that are not related to themovement, just because I never
want that line to get blurred.
Um, I think it's reallyimportant for, I just think it's
really important for whatevermovement work people do to
remain principled and neverbecome about like raising their
(07:15):
own profile.
Right.
It's like don't want, you don'twant to tie things that you're
doing for the purpose ofactivism to capitalism.
Right.
Or even just, yeah.
I just never want it to becomesomething that is self-service.
Yeah.
Um, so lately I've been tryingto make time to do other
(07:37):
projects at the same time, whichis tough because now I have all
of these ideas that I usuallyend up pushing to the back
burner to finish the zine.
But yeah, that's, that'ssomething that's been really
important to me lately, isgetting back to making just
(07:59):
silly sort of meaninglessnonsense.
(08:05):
Um, that's awesome.
I love that.
I mean, I think yeah, likehaving room to play without sort
of a greater purpose behind itis really important to me as
well.
And I think additionally, whenyou are creating art that serves
a movement and an importantmovement like prison abolition,
I think creating art, and I knowthis term self care is like so
(08:29):
overused and it's used in a very, uh, it's used in a very like
take a bubble bath, like light acandle, whatever kind of way.
But I do think like also whenyou think about like, like self
care that's actually valuable.
And I believe there is, um, Ithink Audre Lord has done some
writing on this that I, I'velived perfectly honest, I
(08:50):
haven't read yet.
It's been like, it's a one ofthose things that's on my list
of things to read.
But I think part of what shegets at is more like self-care
as a means of sustainingyourself so that you can serve
that greater purpose.
Kat (09:04):
And apologies to Audre Lorde, cause I'm sure I
completely just butchered whatyou were trying to get at.
But yeah, no, I do think that'sso important.
And then it actually made methink of another question, which
is, so you and I both kind of doour artistic pursuits, like in
the margins of like, we bothhave to work full time to like
(09:25):
support ourselves in New YorkCity.
And so with that, like how doyou, how do you carve out the
time to like, do all thesethings that are important to you
and how do you think about, andwe touched on this a little bit,
I know it's really challengingand we can talk about it to
whatever degree you want, butlike how do you prioritize,
(09:45):
like, within a life, like thereare certain things that you just
absolutely have to do.
And some of those things arebeing in a specific location to
earn money from someone else.
Um, so how do you think aboutgetting done the work that you
need to get done within those,um, you know, kind of the, uh,
(10:07):
constraints?
Kimberly (10:12):
Mostly I do, I'm going to be honest in a way that I
shouldn't, as someone who is jobhunting.
(10:19):
Totally fine.
Kimberly (10:21):
I do a lot of it at work.
Um, and my justification, rightis like most people are not
actually doing their job thatentire time, right?
Kat (10:32):
Yeah.
Kimberly (10:32):
And so it's like, it's just as easy for me to whip out
a notepad and draft the contentfor the next scene as it is for
me to be on Twitter.
Right?
Like neither one of those thingsare what I'm supposed to be
doing, but I might as well dothe thing.
Um, but then I has more value tome.
(10:53):
And I think most people will pick scrolling twitter, so,
like, congratulations to you foractually having that discipline.
Kimberly (10:59):
Thank you.
Um, so yet, uh, I get a lot ofit done at work and I try to
make it so that I'm trying toget better at devoting long
trucks, chunks of time to doingthings because I know that the
amount of work I want to put outis going to require me to spend
more time than I have in thepast.
(11:20):
But what I do is in the earlystages of a project, I just
snatch like 20 minutes here andthere throughout my day to write
sort of the first couple ofdrafts of something.
(11:41):
And it's really only once myidea about what I want something
to look like is really clear tome that I'm like, okay, now I'm
going to devote some time tothis on these specific days to
finish it.
Yeah.
Um, it's not quite a disciplinedway of working.
(12:02):
I mean it's been working for me,um, but it's very much more
inconsistent with the, theworking daily on something in
the early stage.
But honestly, at the end it'smore of a, now I have enough
work and I'm tired of not beingdone with it.
(12:25):
So this week, every day I'mgoing to the print shop and
working on it until it'sfinished.
Kat (12:31):
Yup.
Kimberly (12:31):
Um, so that's kind of my process for now.
Kat (12:35):
I really like that.
Um, especially because, so oneof the things I've been thinking
about a lot is this concept ofbalance, which I think is total
bullshit.
I don't like balance.
I don't value balance.
And yet for most of my adultlife, I have felt like it's
something I'm supposed to strivefor.
And Nicole Antoinette, she's thehost of, um, the Real Talk Radio
(13:01):
podcast, but she led thisretreat that I attended a couple
of weeks ago.
And something that she says islike, you can have balance or
strive for balance, but itshould be, it's not like every
week or every day I do thesethree buckets and I devote the
same percentages.
It's more like over a year youmight have like, oh, there was
(13:23):
that one, that two week periodwhere I hammered out however
many pages of a draft or therewas that month where I was
really focused on getting outthe next issue of my zine or
whatever it is.
And I think like for me atleast, that's a healthier way to
think about it.
And it makes me feel less likeI'm doing something wrong.
When I do have, like, I haveperiods of extremely intense
(13:46):
activity followed by like two orthree months where I'm not doing
anything.
Um, and like the end at the endof the day, like you need those
rest periods too.
But also like, I produce some ofmy best stuff when I'm just like
throwing out everything else inmy life and just focusing on the
one thing.
Kimberly (14:06):
Yeah.
That definitely resonates withme.
One of the things I've beendoing with the zine and at first
this was an accident, right?
Because and mostly plan thepublishing schedule around
(14:27):
actions, right?
So I put one out in the springthat tends to just be whatever
I've been thinking about.
And then the summer--
Kat (14:37):
What do you mean by actions?
You mean like a specificprotest--
Kimberly (14:40):
Right, so in the summer, so in the spring I kind
of put out just whatever generalthing or it might be like the
past couple of years it'sactually been the study guy too.
Um, uprisings.
Um, yeah, like slave rebellion.
Cool.
Yeah.
Kat (14:59):
So you've done some really cool like history, like kind of
edification type of zines that Ifeel like are really valuable
because frankly our Americaneducation system is not teaching
us about a lot of the mostimportant things that have
happened in the history of thiscountry.
Sorry to interrupt you.
Kimberly (15:16):
Oh, you're fine.
Um, so yeah, the spring onetends to be kind of a freebie,
but then the summer one isusually timed to come out the
day of the Sandra Bland Demo,which is always she July13.
Um, and then the fall whenusually coincides with the
(15:40):
African American Day parade inHarlem.
And I usually take the winteroff to go back to binge-watching
television.
(15:47):
Yeah, hibernating--
Kimberly (15:51):
And tweeting memes Yup .
So, um, I'm trying to decide ifI want to start using winter to
work on the sort of joke zenesor if I want winter to continue
to be my break.
Yeah.
And just figure out how tojuggle more than one creative
project at a time during theyear.
Kat (16:14):
I love that.
That's really interesting.
Um, yeah, I think, I don't, Inever think kind of
strategically about what oneseason is going to look like
versus the next.
It's sort of more like, like,um, I'll be like, oh, well,
January I'll, I'll do somethingbig.
Or like this month I expected tobe a lot more, um, productive,
(16:35):
let's say, than I have been.
Um, that's what I think I'vebeen a little better about
accepting that in myself.
Um, but I'd never like, winter'sreally hard for me.
I get like terrible seasonaldepression and like I got
nothing done in the winter.
Like January, I just killed it.
And then February throughprobably April, I really,
(16:57):
whatever the opposite of killedit is.
Okay.
So one of the other things Iwanted to talk about was, and
we've touched a little bit on,um, sort of how your art
intersects with your activistwork.
Um, and I love that.
And kind of a related questionis, why is art important?
(17:20):
Why is art crucial and notfrivolous and like really
necessary in a world that lookshow ours looks right now, which
is, I mean I always say it's onfire.
Kimberly (17:30):
Yeah.
Um, so what's funny is my answerto that is not necessarily like
the one I was thinking it wasgoing to be.
Um, for whatever reason just nowI thought about a conversation
that I had with a coworker ofmine who's also an artist.
(17:52):
He's a photographer.
Um, and we were talking abouthow the way most of us are
educated kind of has a lot ofpeople feeling like-- we were
(18:14):
talking about how a lot ofpeople don't think that they
understand abstract art.
Right.
And it sounds like I'm giving anoff-topic answer, but I'll get
there eventually.
We were talking about how a lotof people feel like they don't
understand abstract art or don'tunderstand experimental art.
(18:38):
Um, and I was talking about aconversation that I had with a
friend of mine who's a reallytalented theater performer.
And he was like, I hateexperimental art.
I hate, you know, abstractstuff.
I don't get it.
And it's frustrating to not getit.
(18:58):
And I was like, obviously Ican't tell you whether or not
you're getting something unlesswe're looking at a specific
piece.
But I really think that mostpeople who don't think they
understand abstract art do, buttwo things kind of make people
(19:23):
feel insecure about the way theyinterpret art, right?
One is the way that we're taughtin school and the way we come
away from things feeling like,"Oh, if I can't write a five
paragraph essay demonstrating,you know, what this piece is
about, then I don't understandit." And I also think that
(19:43):
school teaches us to think ofart simply as things that are
pretty and fun and that make usfeel good.
Um, and so when we encounter artthat's not pretty, or it doesn't
make us feel good, we think thatwe don't get it.
But a lot of times that art isabout something else, right?
(20:03):
Like maybe a piece of art thatmakes you uncomfortable is
supposed to, and if you'reuncomfortable with a piece of
art that's supposed to make youuncomfortable, then you do
actually get it right.
And the fact that you're notable to write a paper on it
doesn't mean you don't.
Yeah.
Oh, I love that.
Oh my gosh, that's so good.
I've never heard anyone explainit quite like that.
Yeah, thanks.
(20:24):
That makes a lot of sense.
Um, and so I think that thereason my mind went there to
answer the question is I thinkthat if we're thinking of art as
frivolous, then we're reallyonly thinking about art that's
pretty, and that, that's not theonly art that's being made,
right?
So, art, if anything, might bemore necessary now, because
(20:47):
everything that we are trying todo, um, to make the world
different is gonna requireimagination.
Right?
And so art is where we use ourimaginations both to hash out
the problems of the currentworld and to envision, you know,
what the future could look like.
Kat (21:11):
That's an amazing answer.
Thanks.
I was like, wow, that wasincredible.
Um, I feel like I just learnedan incredible amount of stuff
from you.
So kind of connected to theintersection of art and
activism.
Um, so, and this is somethingthat you and a few other of my
creative friends came over forbrunch a few months ago.
(21:33):
Um, and we, uh, we had thisconversation about kind of what
activism looks like and, youknow, one of my concerns is
like, I don't feel like I'm goodat activism.
So I'm good at volunteer work.
I'm good at like going andmaking a difference in maybe one
person's life or a small groupof people's lives.
(21:55):
I have attended protests, I'veattended marches and
participated in them.
I don't feel like I'm great atthat work.
And then I feel bad because Ifeel like it doesn't feel like
something that's for me, butthen I feel like I feel like I'm
a terrible person for notparticipating in more.
And not to make this about meand my, my feelings, because I'm
(22:22):
trying to ask a question here,but one of the things we talked
about and I felt like this issuch a valuable conversation was
ways that people who like mefeel like they are bad at
activism can nonetheless supportactivists in other ways that
maybe aren't necessarily likebeing out there every weekend
(22:42):
marching or every week night orwhatever it is.
Kimberly (22:45):
Sure.
Um, so what I would say to thatis one, um, everyone has like a
different role to play inmovement work, right?
And so like of course anytime wecan get extra bodies in the
street, it's great, but at theend of the day, there's so much
(23:09):
that goes into what we do beyondmarching.
Um, so sitting out at a protestis totally fine because the
other things that are involvedare like, I know that raising
awareness isn't enough.
And there are some people wholike lean way too heavily on
(23:31):
that as though it's enough.
But speaking as a grassrootsperson, there is something to be
said for amplifying the work ofpeople who don't have
advertising budgets.
And this isn't even me.
(23:52):
You know, coming for any groupideologically, but it's just, um
, in a practical sense, right.
Your local grassroots organizerdoes not have the name
recognition of, like, the ACLU.
You know what I mean?
Kat (24:08):
That's a great point..
And also probably those people,those organizations are, their
knowledge is so, is probably alot more specialized and
therefore they are positioned tomake a real impact on the issues
that they focus on, but theylack the resources.
Kimberly (24:30):
Right.
And so like, and it can be hard,right, to figure out even who
your local grassroots organizersare.
That's actually my next question.
And it's another reason westarted the zine.
Right.
Um, the zine, I'm always likeconfused about how specific I
want to be about things.
(24:51):
In this case I'm going to bevague.
Okay.
Um, but Groundwork Zine started,um, because there was a protest
that me and some friends went to, um, in the wake of a local
person being murdered.
(25:12):
And there was a clearideological divide within the
family, where half of the familywas very radical and the other
half of the family was beingfriendly to the police who had
zip ties on their hips, ready toarrest people at a candlelight
vigil.
Kat (25:32):
Wow.
Kimberly (25:33):
And that was horrifying.
Um, and so those of us who werethere as radical organizers were
like, it would be nice to have away to stay in touch with the
(25:54):
people who are here who are themore radical element because
they want it to march and partof the family talk them out of
doing it.
And we were like, if we hadsomething to give them, it would
be a completelynon-confrontational way of like
saying, Hey, we hear what you'retalking about.
(26:17):
We're not here to tell you whatto do at all, but if want to get
in touch with us, here's ourinfo.
So that's one thing that'simportant on our end is
organizers.
And this can be hard, which tiesinto like one of my answers to
the question, right.
(26:38):
But as organizers, one thingthat is important is to have
materials and you know, and thatcan be hard, right?
You need access to practicalthings like a copier.
You need like the actual time todraft something.
But if we have info, when wehave an action, having people
(27:00):
spread that to helps.
So if you do like go to a marchor you know, see people doing
outreach or tabling or anything,um, grabbing their info and
blasting it out helps, I'mfollowing them on social media
so that you know, the real scoopon what's happening and not just
(27:25):
what you hear on the local news,right?
Kat (27:26):
Right.
Kimberly (27:26):
And that's important because, okay, here's an example
of what I mean by that, right?
Because a lot of times when yousay that people kind of roll
their eyes cause they're like,oh here we go with the
conspiracy theories, but--
Kat (27:39):
But it's really not right.
We're inundated with spin andlike also, and a lot of like
well intentioned--.
(27:48):
PR is an industry like hello.
I mean, it wouldn't be anindustry of, people weren't
trying to tell a different storyfrom one the facts tell.
Kimberly (27:55):
And even well intentioned people like
accidentally spread it.
Right.
And to give an example of that.
Right.
So we just came off of the fiveyear anniversary of Eric
Garner's murder and the DOJ likethe statute of limitations on
filing the federal charges isfive years.
So they let that run out.
Kat (28:14):
Yeah, of course they did.
Kimberly (28:15):
Even well intentioned people who are on our side are
like, he shouldn't have beenkilled for selling on text
cigarettes.
Okay.
This cigarettes thing was thepretext for the cop stopping him
on that day.
But on that particular day,right.
Eric Garner actually didn't haveany cigarettes.
(28:35):
He had just broken up a fight.
Kat (28:38):
Hmm.
Um, and you, yeah, and the, thestory you hear and it, the story
you hear, as you were saying,from well-intentioned people who
are like on the correct side ofthe issue, all you hear about is
he was selling loose cigarettes.
Right.
Really, I mean, until right now,I had never heard this other
version of this story that isapparently, you know, the, the
real version that no one'shearing.
Kimberly (28:57):
Right.
And the only ones who reallytalk about it are grassroots
organizers who like sat in onthat trial who like write Ramsey
or die in prison all the time.
That's another horrible story.
Right?
Yeah.
Um, and so as much as it isimportant to make sure that
we're not treating, raisingawareness, like it's the only
(29:22):
work, it is work and it stillneeds to get done.
So anytime that you can amplify,um, info coming from people
without the media budget of, youknow, anyone else, including,
you know, the police, obviouslyyou have, you know, the
journalists that they can feedtheir version of the story too
(29:43):
unchecked.
Um, amplifying those voices isalways going to be important.
Um, looping back to the questionof, you know, organizers needing
to have materials, if you candonate to local grassroots
organizers, one of the thingsthat the money that you give
does, is help them pay to printmaterials.
(30:07):
Um, another thing that you cando is if you have design skills
and no one in the group does,like lending your design skills
to helping them with logos,shirts, stickers, posters,
flyers.
Um, another thing I mentionedRamsey Orta, right?
(30:29):
So another thing that really--
Kat (30:30):
I was gonna I was gonna stop you just in case anyone
listening is not familiar in thedetails.
So Ramsey Orta, um, is in jailfor filming the murder of Eric
Garner and what you might, youprobably know a lot more about
this than I do cause I don'tunderstand how it's possible
that he has been in prisoned onthat does not seem like a
(30:52):
violation to me.
Kimberly (30:53):
Well, they nailed him for something else, right?
(30:53):
But that's really why the cops paid attention to him.
Kimberly (31:00):
Exactly.
Kat (31:01):
So yeah, the only person who's gone to jail for anything
connected to Eric Garner is theman who filmed it.
Kimberly (31:07):
The person who supplied evidence.
Um, so writing Ramsey Ortaputting money on his commissary,
which he does need.
Kat (31:15):
Actually if you, if I can get that information from you, I
will put that in a, I'll putthat in the show notes for sure.
Um, I love that.
That's great.
That's something I neverwould've thought of that I will
happily sit down and, and writehim something and, um, and also
share information so others cando the same and yeah.
Ideally give money as well.
Kimberly (31:33):
So that one's important.
Um, speaking of local activists,right.
Um, if you live in New York,you're probably familiar with
the Swipe it Forward campaign.
Um, if you're not, I'll stillgive you some background.
Right.
So definitely fair hikes.
Kat (31:51):
I mean, I think it's a good example of like the role of
creativity and resourcefulnessin activism, right?
Regardless.
And it might, it might even forpeople not in New York, I feel
like it could spur other ideas.
Kimberly (32:04):
Yeah.
For sure.
Like, I want to say that, um, DCorganizers were doing something
similar based on that.
But, um, the fare hikes, um,that had been happening in New
York, as the service getscrappier and crappier has made
(32:24):
the subway increasinglyunaffordable for a lot of
people.
Um, of course people try to getaround that by hopping the
turnstile.
Um, people of, you know, askedfirst for swipes, which can also
get them in trouble with thepolice.
So a lot of grassrootsorganizers, a few years ago, a
(32:48):
few years ago, got together andcame up with the swipe it
forward campaign, which is, youknow, other regular working
class, New Yorkers pooling theirmoney to do these actions in the
subway where, you know, for aset amount of time, they swipe
(33:08):
people coming into the subwayfor free while informing them,
you know, of why if you have anunlimited card, you should swipe
people in on the way out.
Um, and you should look forpeople who need swipes and
volunteer it so that they don'tget in trouble for asking.
Kat (33:24):
So That's interesting.
So I will do it if I seesomeone.
Um, but often I know often theperson will, they might not ask
verbally, but they'll, you know,make kind of the sweeping motion
with their hands.
So is it illegal to ask for aswipe but it's not illegal to
share your swipe.
So that's wow, that's a greatlaw, she says sarcastically.
(33:48):
Um, yeah.
So I didn't realize that.
I actually didn't realize it wasstill illegal to ask.
I knew it was legal for me togive them a swipe.
That's, so, that's great.
Knowing to look what to look forI think is really important.
Cause if someone asks me, I'llof course do it.
Kimberly (34:01):
But yeah, if you can, if you can beat them to even
having to ask that, then theyknow.
Yeah.
(34:07):
Then there's no chance they get in trouble.
Kimberly (34:08):
Yeah.
Um, so the swipe it forwardcampaign swipes people into the
subway for free while raisingawareness of the way fare
beating is used to funnel peopleinto, you know, the criminal
system.
Right.
Um, the, the fare is what,$3 nowand a ticket for fair beating is
(34:32):
$100.
If you don't have the$3?
You definitely don't have ahundred days.
Another.
(34:38):
It's basically just another great example of how we punish
people for being poor.
Right.
And then make them even poorerand then, and then put them in
prison.
And then, um, is this the typeof violation where you can end
up in jail without a way out?
Kimberly (34:57):
Yeah.
Like, yeah.
(34:58):
So this basically just like filter really does truly get
someone into the prison systemfor the crime quote unquote of
not being able to afford a$3swipe.
Kimberly (35:09):
Right.
And if you're undocumented, itcan like actually out you as
well, which is terrifying.
Um, so anytime you see localgrassroots organizers organizing
a swipe campaign, donating togroups, like why accountability,
(35:29):
um, will help you know, some ofthat money go towards those
campaigns to help people out.
Um, and to raise awareness aboutthat and try and shift the
culture so that more and morepeople are calling for not only
for people not to becriminalized in our subway
system, but also there's aradical push going on right now
(35:51):
for like free, accessibletransportation for all.
Um, yeah, so like joining thatpush is a good way to get
involved.
Um, for people who are familiarwith NYC Shut it Down.
Who shortly after Eric Garner'smurder became the longest
(36:13):
running resistance action in NewYork City.
Every Monday they would take tothe streets and do an
unpermitted march for someonewho had been killed by the
state.
Um, they recently, after fiveyears, which is really good,
pivoted to the Feed the Peopleprogram, which takes place in
(36:35):
East Harlem and in the Bronx.
So if you follow NYC Shut itDown on Facebook or Twitter.
(36:43):
I'll add that in the show notes as well.
Kimberly (36:45):
Um, you can get info on how you can either donate
money to Shut it Down, that goesto helping them make the food
for the food serves that theydo.
Or you can let them know thatyou have gently used clothes and
blankets and other things togive away or like tampons, pads,
(37:07):
school supplies, whateverthey're collecting.
Um, they coordinate pickup.
So you can just drop them a lineand say, hey, I have some stuff
and they'll figure out how toget it.
Kat (37:18):
Um, and I think actually that's kind of a, that's sort of
a"safe" way for some people to,to participate in activism that
still has tangible impact.
Exactly.
That's great.
Yeah.
Cause I suspect there are a lotof people out there for whom
like, they might not feel quiteready to even join a protest at
(37:42):
all.
Right.
Um, but yeah, and I think, Idunno, the more kind of
incremental baby steps peoplecan take toward becoming more
aware and getting involved, Ithink the better.
Kimberly (37:52):
Supporting local tenant organizers is also good.
Um, supporting a group likeEquality for Flatbush, which is
a local or that supports thedollar-van drivers, the street
vendors.
Um, the local businesses who areat risk of being, you know,
(38:14):
having their rents jacked up andbeing pushed out of Flatbush,
um, supporting people who arestanding up against their
landlords--that's a good localorg to support.
So yeah, just like funding,funding things or donating
skills if you don't really cash.
Kat (38:36):
That's great.
Yeah.
And so it's now the, now you'remore on the side of helping
amplify, um, you know, get theword out, getting the word out
about organizations, grassrootsorganizations that people might
know now know about.
Ehen you were first startingout, like how did you learn
about some of theseorganizations?
Kimberly (38:54):
Totally by accident.
Kat (38:57):
Yeah.
Okay.
So it's, I feel like it's oftenthat way.
I was wondering if it's like apush or pull thing.
Kimberly (39:01):
No, I think it's by accident.
I think that's why like the, asmuch as we can, like pushing
whoever we do know is the onlyway this stuff really goes
viral.
(39:22):
Um, I found, so I'm kind of justa general member now, but I used
to be active in a group calledPeople's Power Assembly NYC.
Um, and New York's not the onlyplace with People's Power
Assembly.
It's in other cities too, butthat's the first group I got
involved with and I've foundthem because in the beginning,
(39:49):
when I first started protesting,I would always go by myself and
I wasn't always available at thebeginning of a protest.
So like I would miss wheneverthey were giving out flyers
anyway because I got off work atseven and a lot of things were
called for six.
Yeah.
So I kind of just had to figureout where protests were.
(40:10):
So what I would do is I wouldjust guess based off, while I
know this is a majorthoroughfare.
Kat (40:16):
Yeah.
So it's going to go throughthere.
Yeah.
Kimberly (40:18):
So I will just wait there until I see cop cars and
then whichever direction I seethe cop cars going, I know that
must be where the protest is.
Wow.
So I would do that for a while.
Um, and so that's how I made itto protests, but I still hadn't
met anyone yet.
And so then I got kind offrustrated that I was having
such a hard time meeting people.
(40:40):
So I put up a Facebook page, I'mlooking for other people who
were having trouble, um,figuring out how to connect to
protests.
Kat (40:53):
Sorry if you can hear that music.
I'm on a busy avenue in Brooklynand some sounds sometimes pass
by while I'm recording.
So yeah,
Kimberly (41:02):
So I put that up and not a lot of people could come
because since I wasn't connectedto any other groups, I didn't
know that there was anotherevent happening that day that
everybody would be at.
Um, but one of the people whocame, um, is one of the people
who went on to become one of thearchitects of swipe it forward.
(41:24):
Shannon, from whyaccountability.
But she came because she waslike, there is an event today,
but I'm coming to this anywaybecause, you know, I, I felt
like doing something other thanmarching on today.
Um, and she was like, I have agroup, but we're in the Bronx
and you live in Brooklyn.
There's an organization I thinkwould be a great fit for you.
(41:45):
It's called People's powerassembly.
And then I started going tomeetings.
And that's why when I did jointhe group, they had fliers.
But that is why more flyers wasalways my car, you know, because
that is the only way people arereally going to know how to find
us.
(42:05):
Like right in the fire.
They follow you on Facebook orTwitter and then like you can
stay in touch with them.
Yeah,
Kat (42:12):
it's great.
And I feel like, yeah, whenyou're finding, when, when
people are likely to find outabout you by accident, the best
thing you can do a lot of thetime is just, just give them
more opportunities to, you know,kind of stumble upon, uh, upon
your work and your message.
Right.
That's great.
Um, wow, that's really, reallyhelpful.
Um, okay, so shifting gears alittle bit, um, unless there's
(42:39):
anything else that we haven'ttalked about that you feel like
we should touch on with regardto activism?
Kimberly (42:44):
Not necessarily.
No.
Kat (42:51):
Okay.
So you had tweeted a while back,I guess right before I sent you
an email and was like, hey, doyou want to do this?
Um, about not letting otherpeople change your weather?
And I really loved that conceptand I was wondering if you would
mind talking a little bit aboutthat and kind of how it guides
your interactions with peopleand sort of how you manage sort
(43:14):
of unpleasantries that we allhave to deal with.
Um, just as a function of beinghuman on planet earth.
Yeah.
Kimberly (43:20):
So I am really dramatic and
Kat (43:25):
Oh my God, no one believe.
Okay.
No one listening to this isgoing to believe that cause
you're like, you just like, Idon't know, just like this
entire interview I've beenthinking about how you think so
much more linearly than I do.
I am like crazy all over theplace.
Like I interrupt myself to makepoints other than the one I was
making.
I don't think anyone who doesn'tknow you, who's listening so far
(43:48):
is going to believe that you'redramatic but continue.
Kimberly (43:51):
Um, so I used to be very, like, anytime anything
would happen, yeah, my day isruined.
Kat (43:56):
Oh, okay.
Yup.
Kimberly (43:59):
Um, and I guess that like the shifts started a few
years ago when I worked a jobthat was like, I would work from
like six to one, um, and thenhave the rest of the day to
myself, you know, and at thejob, right, things would happen
and I'd be like, this ishorrible.
(44:20):
I hate my life today.
So that, you know, and then Iwould get off work and I would
go do something.
And by the end of the day, Ialmost forgotten that the first
part of the day was horrible.
Kat (44:34):
Right.
Kimberly (44:35):
Um, and so at first it became, uh, okay, I'm gonna make
a resolution to not say that I'mhaving a bad day anymore.
Um, I'll say like, oh, I'mhaving a bad morning, or I had a
bad afternoon.
But like, I learned that likesomething horrible happening in
the morning doesn't necessarilyhave to ruin my day, you know,
(44:57):
depending on what it was andwhether it has any lasting
consequences.
Um, so that was first.
And then, um, more recently I'vejust started to feel like a lot
of the things that I was writingoff as like ruining my day were
(45:20):
things that ultimately didn'thave any like, other
ramifications.
Right.
They might've been frustratingexperiences, but like they
weren't going to have anylasting effect.
Kat (45:31):
Yeah.
Kimberly (45:32):
Or whoever did it, like wasn't in a position to get
me fired or like anything likethat.
So I was like, I shouldn't, youknow, now my qualification for
like, what constitutes likeruining my morning or whatever
is right.
If it doesn't have like anyeffects beyond the moment
(45:54):
itself, then like, I should notget so mad, you know?
So I started doing that and whatit felt like for me was exactly
that.
Right?
Like it felt like, okay, theweather around me doesn't have
(46:16):
to be shitty because one personis really annoying even if
they're awful.
Right.
Um, and it's not even a, it'snot like I became this
enlightened person who doesn'tengage in pettiness, but it's a
like, be petty back in thatmoment and then move on from it.
(46:40):
Um, if it doesn't have any realweight.
Kat (46:43):
Yeah.
And just let it go.
Right.
It can be really hard to do andit's, it's definitely a process
of retraining your brain so thatit works that way versus the way
of, I guess, I think in a lot ofcases like your mind wants to
attach to those little pettygrievances, right.
And hold onto them and like kindof build an identity around
(47:05):
them.
And then it's like you'respending the entire day in this.
And at least for me, it oftenmanifests as like this victim
mindset where like, oh, Ispilled my coffee and then, um,
I didn't get a seat on thesubway or I got on a car that
wasn't air conditioned, likerose.
All these like in the grandscheme of things, very tiny,
(47:26):
inconsequential things.
But then you let them turn intothis idea of like, the world
hates me or, yeah.
And I, I kind of had a similar,um, like change of mindset over
the past few years where Idefinitely used to let really
small things just destroyeverything else.
(47:47):
Um, and, and I think one thingthat's helped me is like, um,
one, I have this idea that Ithink I stole from, um, this
author Byron Katie, which islike about not arguing with
reality.
Like you can't change the factthat, you know, your customer
was a jerk this morning or, um,you know, your, uh, someone
(48:12):
almost hit you while you were inthe crosswalk because drivers
are terrible.
Um, but, um, you can controllike you can, you can kind of
put that in a container where itdoesn't pervade everything else
about your life.
And in doing so, like you'rejust kind of accept like it's a,
(48:35):
it's really acceptance, right?
It's like, oh, this shitty thinghappened and it was shitty.
And then I just sort of likeobserve like, all right, well
how did that, how do I feelabout that?
And then it's like, all right,well, I can continue feeling
bitter about it.
That doesn't change that ithappened.
And it also in most cases won'timpact whether it happens again
(48:56):
or not, especially when it'ssomething that's out of your
control.
So I really, I really love that.
And I think it's, I think thatit can be tempting to think
like, oh, well that's just likegrowing up and whatever.
But I know a lot of people ourage who like really have not
mastered this remotely.
Like there are a lot of peoplewho let these petty grievances
really just take overeverything.
And, um, I, I feel like yes,there are certain things about
(49:21):
my life that have changedtangibly in the last few years,
but I think the, my life is alot better now than it used to
be.
And I would say the biggestreason for that is because I've
had this mindset shift where Ijust don't let shit like that
bother me on the level that itused to.
So I really, really related tothat.
And I, I love the concept of, ofweather.
(49:41):
So I feel like I've learned somuch from you in this short
conversation, even having knownyou for a relatively long period
of time, um, and following yourwork.
Um, so I will put a lot of stuffin the show notes for people who
want to follow up on some of thethings that you've talked about.
Um, where can people find you onsocial media if they want to
(50:03):
follow you?
Um, where's the best place?
Kimberly (50:06):
So, um, my horrible tweets, no, I'm actually not
recommend my horror.
Okay.
Good.
Good tweets.
Okay.
Groundwork Zine.
I'm on Twitter.
Great.
Cool.
It won't be hard to figure outhow to find my horrible tweet.
Yeah.
And then on Instagram,@sugarwaterartdept, which is
(50:29):
kind of the umbrella for likeall of my art projects.
Awesome.
That's great.
Kat (50:34):
So hopefully people will have a chance to check both of
those out, um, along with someof the other things that I drop
into the show notes.
But Kimberly, thank you so much.
I feel like this, I expectedthis conversation to be
incredible and illuminating andI feel like it's nonetheless
like surpassed my expectationsand, um, I just feel really
inspired right now, so thankyou.
(50:56):
I'm so glad you were able tojoin me today.
Kimberly (50:58):
Yay.
Outro (51:03):
So that's this week's episode of how to be creative.
As always, you can find shownotes, including a complete
episode transcript and links toeverything discussed at
howtobecreative.org.
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