September 30, 2019 • 56 mins
Today I'm chatting with writer Theodora Blanchfield about the role creative work has played in her mental health journey. In this candid conversation, Theodora shares what caring for her mental health has meant for her in the aftermath of her mother's death from cancer and while she's navigated other challenges including career changes and breakups.
Where to find Theodora:
- Instagram: @theodorable
- Twitter: @tblanchfield
- Blog: Preppy Runner
As always, you can find show notes, including a complete episode transcript and links to everything discussed today, at howtobecreative.org.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:03):
You're listening to How to Be Creative, a podcast about
what it means to be creativeacross different disciplines,
industries, life circumstances,and career structures.
You'll learn tips for fittingcreativity into your daily life
and hear from a bunch ofdifferent people about how being
creative has helped them reachgoals, open doors, and live a
more rewarding or at least moreinteresting life.
(00:25):
I'm your host, Kat O'Leary, andI'm excited to introduce you to
some of my favorite creatives,as well as to the tools that
help me get my most crucial workdone.
Kat (00:37):
So today my guest is my friend Theodora Blanchfield and
Theodora is a writer who writesabout mental health and fitness.
She she does that at PreppyRunner, at preppyrunner.com,
right?
Yup.
And then, um, she also podcastsat this may be oversharing
because Theodora believes thatthe stuff that we don't talk
(00:58):
about is the stuff we most needto talk about.
So Theodora and I have beenfriends for a few years.
We met through our volunteerwork.
Um, and I asked her to join theshow today to talk a little bit
about creativity as a mentalhealth practice.
Um, so Theodora I don't knowwhere you want to get started on
that and maybe it makes sense totalk a little bit about your
(01:20):
mental health journey and whatis that, what that has looked
like and then kind of, um, howit's sort of evolved your
creative work from, um, youknow, originally you were really
more focused on like the healthand fitness part of this, that
world.
Um, and now it's really, um,more of like an overall wellness
(01:42):
, um, kind of thing where likeyou talk a lot and very candidly
about your mental health, whichI think is awesome and stuff
that a lot of people need tohear and need to talk about.
Sorry.
Theodora (01:52):
First of all, thank you so much for having me.
Yes.
Okay.
I had my, I'm gonna embarrassyou.
I mean, no, please do hire yourcreativity.
So I'm honored that you admiremine.
Um, so I mean, I think really mymental health and creativity
stuff kind of go together andare interwoven.
So like Kat said, I startedblogging at, well it was
(02:14):
originally called Losing Weightin the City.
I started blogging there inMarch, 2009 which is 10 years.
Kat (02:21):
Yes.
That's so amazing.
Congratulations! Your blog is infifth grade.
Theodora (02:27):
Well, if you put that way.
Yeah.
Um, time is weird.
Um, I started blogging therebecause I was 2000, like I said,
2009 right after the recession,I was working at a legal print
magazine, which was every bit asfun as it sounded.
Kat (02:46):
That was DC, right?
Theodora (02:47):
No, that was here.
I had been working in an act ofpolitical trade magazine in D C
and I want him to get up, moveup here and in lifestyle, but I
kind of got pigeonholed intoworking for trade magazines.
I started working for thatmagazine in June, 2008 so I
(03:10):
learned a few months later thatI was just lucky to have a job.
But I was lucky as I was to havea job then it didn't mean I
liked it.
Right.
So I was also trying to loseweight.
I was trying to lose 50 poundsfor a friend's wedding and Aruba
and I decided, okay, I needdigital skills, I want to lose
(03:33):
weight.
Let me kind of start doing thetwo together.
You know, typical blog story.
Didn't think anyone, but my momwould read.
Kat (03:46):
At least your mom read it.
I feel like a lot of people'sparents are eating on this
podcast, so we have pastries infront of us.
Yeah.
Um, but I feel like honestly noteveryone's parents support their
art.
Even just having your mom that'slike better than a lot of people
are doing.
Theodora (04:03):
That's true.
Um, yeah.
So I started, I didn't, didn'treally know what I was doing,
kind of figured it out along theway.
Like if I look back at those oldposts, like they are incredibly
cringe-worthy, like terribleiPhone photos.
Not that my photography hasrisen to some elevated level.
Um, iPhones have just gottenbetter.
(04:27):
But my blog kind of started, youknow, I guess really following
my journey and like Kat said,you know, at the beginning that
was weight loss and I lost theweight successfully, thankfully
started parlaying the blog intomoving into a career in social
media, which was also part of mygoal.
(04:48):
And then I got really, reallyinto running and with a blog
called Losing Weight in theCity, people would be like, oh,
are you trying to lose weight?
And I'd be like, are you sayingI looked like I needed to?
Kat (05:01):
And it just became an awkward title and basically
turned something that I thinkwas probably very personal for
you despite having a public blogabout it, like into like an
invitation for other people tocomment.
Theodora (05:11):
to comment on my weight,
Kat (05:12):
which is disgusting.
Theodora (05:13):
Yes, exactly.
So in 2013 I had become prettyobsessed with running at that
point I was training for, Ithink it was my fourth marathon.
I was training for the New YorkCity Marathon and I was trying
to break four hours, which Idid.
Kat (05:32):
Oh my God, you're amazing.
Theodora (05:33):
Which is honestly still one of the best days of my
life.
Kat (05:36):
Wow.
Um, that's incredible.
And as someone who ran the NewYork marathon in November and
did not have a great day, I likeadmire you even more.
Theodora (05:45):
The four times that I've run the New York marathon
have been four of the best daysof my life.
I've been lucky.
I've had really goodexperiences.
Um, so I changed my blog toPreppy Runner then and it was at
that point, that was when I alsostarted writing about mental
health stuff.
I was connect curse.
Yeah.
(06:06):
Excellent.
I was at a really shitty job andI started having these really
terrible panic attacks because Ifelt like nothing I could do at
this job was right.
Yeah.
I've been there.
Yup.
And I one day had to go home andgo straight to my doctor because
I was having such a bad panicattack.
I got to my doctor, my bloodpressure was something like one
(06:29):
40 or one 50 over like ahundred.
And I was like, this isn't okay.
And she gave me a prescriptionfor Xanax.
I wrote about this all a fewdays later on my blog and just
the outpouring of support andcomments that I got was amazing.
And you know, obviously I'vebeen afraid to share something
(06:53):
that personal and that raw.
This was also six years ago whenmental health wasn't as big of a
part of the conversation.
Kat (07:01):
Yeah, that's a really good point.
Theodora (07:05):
And I was like, okay, um, this is a thing.
I can talk about this, I canstart this conversation.
So that was 2013.
I'm 20 actually at the end ofthat year, I got laid off and
started a new job that sameyear.
The new job that I started wasbasically the polar opposite of
(07:26):
the old job.
I loved it.
Everyone was so supportive,except the anxiety still
continued.
Because at that point I waslike, oh, this is too good to be
true.
Kat (07:36):
Oh yeah, I think that's a very normal experience.
Theodora (07:42):
The other shoe, I was afraid the other shoe was going
to drop.
Anytime I saw my coworkerstalking, I was confused about
was about me.
Kat (07:50):
And the fact that you were gonna get fired.
Yep.
Um, so it's interesting cause I,sorry to interrupt you.
Like I had a very commonexperience so I had a horrible
four months into the job fromthe fall of 2016 to early 2017
and um, yeah.
And it was, it was horrific.
(08:10):
It was so horrific that likewhen I left that job, the most
overpowering, um, feeling that Iassumed that I had through that
experience was relief eventhough I didn't have anything
else lined up yet.
But I, I've been, fortunately itwas interviewing, etc.
But when I first started the jobthat I have now, which I love
and is the polar opposite of thetoxic environment that I'd been
(08:32):
in, I had the same thing.
Like I was constantly worried.
Like even if I made, anytime Imade a tiny mistake, I thought I
was going to get fired, which islike, actually that's not what
happens at a healthy workplacewith normal people.
Yeah.
It's like a bad relationship ormanaging their own stuff and
like aren't super ego-driven andare like just basically kind,
normal people.
(08:53):
So I totally relate.
So sorry to interrupt you withthat sidebar, but yeah, I get
it.
Theodora (08:57):
Yeah.
It's, I think it's a prettycommon experience.
And I think another thing thatwe don't talk about, you know,
people are like, oh, it's justwork.
But it's not.
Kat (09:04):
No it's not.
And in New York, especially inNew York or New York.
Theodora (09:08):
Where we live at our jobs, we're defined by our job.
Um, but I had started therapywhen I started having the panic
attacks and you know, was stillafter I got let go from that
job, I was still anxious causethen I didn't have a job and I
was looking for a job and wasconvinced I was never going to
find one because I was thisterrible employee and terrible
(09:30):
person because I got let go.
Um, so once I started the newjob I was like, oh, everything's
fine.
I don't need therapy anymore.
But I realized how much thosebeliefs that the other shoe was
gonna drop, that everyone wastalking about me, how pervasive
they were and how they werereally affecting my ability to
(09:52):
do my job.
To do this job that I loved.
Yeah.
So I started therapy again.
I was in the, I guess the springof 2014 and haven't really
stopped since then.
I tried and I'm skipping arounda little bit now, but I tried,
I've tried twice in those fiveyears to stop therapy.
(10:15):
Um, both times my mom gotdiagnosed with cancer.
Yeah.
One time was the first time andthen it came back and I was
like, okay, so bad things happenwhen I stopped there.
Get so not good.
Stop there.
[inaudible].
Kat (10:30):
What a mind fuck that is though.
Right?
Right.
Yet you're like, oh, I did this.
I cause this, I stopping therapyand I'm bad.
I'm like, I mean I worked sohard to break myself of the
pattern of like thinking like,Oh, you know, everything bad
that happens is a punishment forme not doing what I'm supposed
to do.
And I actually think now thatnow that I'm thinking about it,
(10:51):
um, I have more or less brokenmyself with that pattern.
Thank you therapy.
Um, but like at that level, likeI can't even imagine.
That's, yeah.
I mean, but you did not causeyour mom to get sick.
Right.
Theodora (11:07):
Right.
I know that stopping therapy didnot cause that, but it certainly
felt like it.
Yeah.
Um, but so, you know, I hadstarted therapy kind of
addressing anxiety.
I got really deep to the rootsof all the anxiety and it mostly
went away no sooner than it wentaway.
Did I start getting reallydepressed?
(11:27):
Yeah.
Which my therapist at the timetold me was pretty normal.
Yeah.
Um, and I kind of had what feltlike seasonal blues that just
didn't go away for six or sevenmonths.
And that was when I finallyconsented to start taking
(11:49):
medication.
Yeah.
Um, my therapist had suggestedbefore and I was like, oh, I
don't need that.
And I was like, you know what?
This has been going on seven oreight months that I felt this
way.
Like, enough is enough.
And so I'm a, as I said earlier,I'd love to run and I was
injured at the time that Istarted.
I decided to start takingmedication.
(12:11):
Not being able to run was likemy last straw.
Like it was one of my biggestcoping skills at the time.
Kat (12:18):
I was going to say running is like I started running during
business school because I, and Idon't want to get into a huge
other conversation about this,but, um, like I went through a
horrible breakup, the verybeginning of business school and
I at the time like was so I hadso much anxiety I could not
(12:38):
breathe.
And I was like, well, I caneither take a shot of whiskey,
not a great idea when your classis starting before 9:00 AM or I
can like go run.
Even I would just run like oneor two miles.
And like even that like runningbecame a huge coping strategy
for me and like.
Theodora (12:57):
Or you could run and then take a shot of whiskey.
Kat (12:59):
Yeah, that's true.
But probably not before drivingto class or like going to class
at like eight 30 in the morning.
Yeah.
But yeah, no, I think running,running like was basically uh,
like started as like a form of,I don't like to say this.
(13:25):
I need to think a little bitabout how I want to say this,
but like to me it's like a formof therapy but I do not at all
think.
Theodora (13:30):
It's very therapeutic but it's not therapy.
Kat (13:33):
That's a good way of putting it.
Thank you.
Yeah.
People say running is therapy inthat it's like, like what am I
biggest actually scares me causeI'm like are you get, are you
doing all the other stuff youneed to maintain your mental
health?
Like, and I don't want toproject like not, I mean I think
therapy's amazing.
I've learned so much aboutmyself through it.
Um, I also don't like to projectlike my own stuff onto other
(13:54):
people.
Like I think that there aremultiple ways to get to a place
where you're able to manage yourmental health in a way that
works for you.
And like therapy I think is avery strong version of that.
But it's not, everything is foreveryone all the time, always,
you know, so yeah.
Theodora (14:14):
So yeah.
So without running as, you know,one of my biggest coping skills
in my life, I was like, no.
Like I just can't anymore.
I started taking medication.
Then three months after that mymom got diagnosed with cancer.
So kind of in retrospect, I waslike, well, I'm glad I'm already
on medication.
(14:35):
Um, my mom got diagnosed withovarian cancer, the long story
short of that, she had maybe sixmonths or so, she was in
treatment.
She responded so well.
She went into remission andreally like, okay, great.
Like this was, this is John thatchapters over.
This was like the shitty timethat we had in our lives that we
(14:56):
had to go through and like,we're good now.
We're good.
Everything can return to normal.
So we were really lucky and thateverything did kind of return to
normal for about four months.
And looking back, I'm sograteful now that we had those
four months.
Yeah.
Um, but then she, and duringthose four months is when I was
(15:18):
like, everything is great now.
My mommy better.
Um, I love my job.
I've made, I've gotten theanxiety under control.
Cool.
Stop therapy.
Yeah.
Stop for like two weeks.
And then she got the cancer cameback and I was like, okay.
So yeah I'm going back totherapy.
So unfortunately the second timearound she did not respond as
(15:43):
well to treatment as she did thefirst time around.
Had this really big emergencysurgery in December of 2016 she
had an emergency bowelresection.
Friends who are doctors didn'ttell me at the time, but that
even without cancers andincredibly risky surgery, it's
(16:03):
like 50% survival rate.
Like I'm glad nobody told methat at the time.
Well I think it makes sensethough cause my, I mean it makes
sense for them not to tell youthey're going to do with that.
Kat (16:14):
It doesn't, it doesn't change the reality.
And also it, I dunno, I thinklike people have talked a lot
about like, patients who have,you know, who are, have a
positive outlook and have hopeare more like to and like, so
for you it's PR and your mom isprobably good for you to have
(16:34):
like, yeah.
That kind of energy around herversus like, you secretly know
that like this is, I mean, I'msure she knew the odds and
didn't tell you either, butright.
Theodora (16:42):
Yeah.
I think we all knew but didn'twant to acknowledge it.
Yeah.
Except for my dad who called thepriest for last rights and I was
like, nope, this lady is notdying.
So, uh, no.
Kat (16:54):
Yeah, I think that's so dad-like though, right?
It's like what practical taskscan I take on?
Theodora (16:59):
And it's like, I appreciate that, but like think
a little bit about how that'sgoing to be received right now.
And he said it right in front ofher too and I was like, nope,
nope, nope.
You go outside.
Yeah.
You go outside right now.
So the very long story short ofthat is that that was really
kind of the beginning of theend.
(17:19):
Um, you know, thing after thingwent wrong.
Um, she never recovered from it.
So she passed away in July of2017 and clearly I'm still going
to therapy throughout all ofthis.
I, you know, knew it was coming.
It was very obvious when all ofher bodily system started
(17:41):
shutting down or needed likemedical assistance.
Like it was, it was pretty clearwhat was happening.
So yeah, my therapist, I talkedabout it a lot and I felt like I
was as prepared as possible tohandle it.
I was in the immediateaftermath.
(18:02):
Um, but that turned into a verylong and very serious mental
health journey.
Um, so that was July of 2017that she passed away.
Six weeks later I got dumped,six weeks after that I got laid
off from this job that I hadreally loved.
(18:25):
Somehow I managed to make itthrough the rest of 2017.
I was running the marathon.
I went to Ireland on a solo tripright after that.
I was focusing on gettingthrough the holidays and getting
my friends and I were going on atrip to South America.
I kept having all these thingsto look forward to.
That kind of kept me hanging on.
Kat (18:47):
But then I think it's also hard to be like to have your
ability to navigate things likedependent on external stuff.
Llike that doesn't work for me.
Sorry like not trying to projectmy stuff onto you, but like for
me if I'm ever like--
Theodora (19:04):
It's a Band-Aid.
Kat (19:05):
Yeah.
To me that that doesn't work.
Theodora (19:06):
So yeah, it got me through until I got back from it
kind of got me through until Igot back from South America.
It kept me, it kept me fromentirely falling apart.
Then I got back from SouthAmerica.
It's mid January in New York,which is a depressing time in
and of itself.
(19:27):
If you don't have shit going on,don't come here to visit then
God, No God, no.
Stay wherever you are unlessit's Alaska, maybe come visit.
Um, and then I also had to faceall of this.
Yeah.
Not having a job, not having mymom.
I honestly couldn't have caredless about this guy.
(19:47):
He was just a Douche.
Kat (19:48):
Right.
But it was one more thing on thepile.
Theodora (19:50):
And there was left to face all of this and things got
really, really dark for me.
Um, I was thinking a lot aboutending it all.
And then that March I had hadbasically what was a really,
(20:10):
really rough weekend for a wholevariety of reasons.
And I came home and after havinga few drinks, I took a handful
of pills.
I immediately regretted it andtook myself to the hospital,
which ended up being a week inthe psych ward.
And going into that, one of my,one of my friends and her mom
(20:34):
came to the hospital and theywere like, oh, you know, you
should go do an inpatient thing.
And I was like, no, I'm good.
I don't need that.
I'm fine.
Not fine, but I don't needsomething dress.
Right.
Kat (20:48):
Yeah.
Because we always have this ideathat that stuffs for other
people.
Theodora (20:51):
Right.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Like, yeah, even checking intothe psych ward, I'm looking
around at everyone and I'm like,this is very privileged and an
asshole.
But like, well, I don't, I don'tlook like them.
Yeah.
I don't belong here.
You know?
Kat (21:07):
I think that's very honest and I think that's, I mean, what
a lot of people probably thinkin that situation.
Theodora (21:14):
On the surface I look like, I think I can look like I
have my shit together.
Yeah.
Um, that did not mean that Ididn't need it.
They asked if I wanted to do anintensive outpatient program,
which was, um, like five days oftherapy a week.
(21:38):
That's like three or four hoursof group therapy.
Like three individual sessions.
Still thought I didn't needthat.
No, I'm okay.
I can manage this.
I'll be okay.
I'll figure it out.
I think I've really thought thatthat was just the wake up call
that I needed and I would beable to pull, pull myself out
(21:59):
from there.
You know, with the help of mytherapist, with the help of my
psychiatrist, I started doingtwice weekly therapy sessions.
Well, it's not really enough.
I like managed to hold thingstogether for a few weeks, fall
apart all over again.
(22:20):
Repeat, repeat, repeat.
Few months later my doctordiagnosed me with bipolar, which
was a terrifying diagnosis toreceive.
Yeah.
Um, but it kind of,
Kat (22:35):
Because it's so stigmatized, right?
I mean that's the thing, right.
And like I will say like I, Ihave throughout my life I've had
several friends diagnosed withbipolar or other mental health
diagnoses that are kind ofsimilarly thought about in our
cultural narrative.
And they are all livingfulfilling productive lives and
(23:02):
a mid like having to man, thisis just one thing you have to
manage.
But I don't think that's thecultural conversation we're
having.
Right.
And I think like, so as a resultof that, like to be given that
diagnosis, it feels more direthan it probably has to be.
Right.
Theodora (23:18):
I mean it is a very serious illness and you know,
untreated, you know, the ratesof suicide and suicide attempts
are much higher than bipolar andI guess other similar diseases
than in the general population.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, but that I think beganstarting to get me on the right
(23:38):
path with the right medications.
I thought I was doing a littlebetter.
I moved to California for thefall.
It was a Band-Aid.
Yeah.
Well it was a Band-Aid I think.
No, I think I knew that goinginto it too, but I had to try
it.
I came back and I came backright before the holidays, took
(24:04):
another big trip, came back,basically it was on this same
crash cycles I'd been on theyear before.
Almost 11 months to the day Iended myself back up in the
hospital.
Literally same exact thing.
Um, even down to, it was aSunday night again.
(24:28):
It was after I'd been out withfriends and had been drinking
and took pills again.
Yeah.
Same time of night.
Like I recognized the doctorsand the nurses that were there
the previous time and thatdidn't feel good.
And I was like, okay, now I'mlike this repeat patient.
And they asked me if I wanted tobe admitted and I was like, no,
(24:50):
but thank you for asking.
Because I knew that the purposeof being admitted to a psych
ward in a general hospital likethat is only to keep you safe
and stable.
And I did believe that I coulddo that temporarily.
Ending myself up in the hospitalagain like that, I realized
(25:11):
immediately that I did need moreserious treatment.
So I started looking upresidential treatment programs,
so meaning going away, um, youknow, being under 24 hours
supervision.
I was terrified.
I was absolutely terrified.
(25:33):
One of my very good friendssaid,"Okay, I'm gonna make you a
deal.
I'm going to help you with theresearch." I was terrified to
tell my dad because I alsoneeded his help paying because
these things are not cheap.
Terrified to tell my dad.
She was like,"I'm gonna help youwith research.
I'm going to call your dad ifyou go." I can't say no to that.
Right.
(25:53):
So I ended up going to a centerin San Diego.
Of course.
Now I wish I had done itearlier.
It was,
Kat (26:04):
But you went when you were ready to go.
I mean, and actually if you'dgone earlier--
Theodora (26:07):
I don't think it would , would've gotten as much out of
it.
Exactly.
Um, like I,
Kat (26:11):
I understand that you need to like re-litigate stuff like
that.
Right?
But like, yeah, cause I do itall the time.
But also, yeah.
You went when you went, when youwere ready to go.
Yeah.
And even going into it,
Theodora (26:23):
I still don't know how ready I was.
I was going, I was going forother people.
I wasn't going for myself.
Yeah.
I was going because I knew thatpeople in my life were worried
and it didn't feel fair to keepdoing this to them.
Kat (26:35):
I think that's a form of readiness though.
Yeah, I guess you know, becauseit's not like that was new
information that people wereworried about you trio, you
know?
Theodora (26:45):
That's very true.
Yes.
So I picked the place that I didbecause it also like Kat I'm
into all the woo-woo stuff.
Kat (26:55):
Oh yeah.
Have to be, that's why we'refriends.
We live in 2019, like hand me ahealing crystal fucking crystal.
This plane sucks.
Let's try a higher one.
Theodora (27:05):
Like seriously.
So I like, you know that theyconsidered more holistic
therapies.
I liked that they took us to thegym every day.
If I haven't previouslyestablished, I'm kind of
addicted to working out.
We also had lots of journalinggroups.
(27:29):
So the like overall structurewas kind of similar to the
outpatient stuff that I hadmentioned.
We had five days of therapy, aweek, five hours, and so that
was mostly group therapy otherthan meeting with our individual
therapists.
Terrified.
Walking into all of that,especially group therapy.
I'm like, what the fuck is this?
Kat (27:51):
It's hard for me to wrap myself around that amount of
therapy as a person for whomlike therapy was once a week for
an hour.
And like even that, like feltlike so much work and so much
like thinking between sessionsabout like what I still needed
(28:16):
to work on.
Right.
Things like that.
Like I it's yeah, it's amazingthat you did this.
I can imagine why that wasextremely daunting.
Theodora (28:24):
Thank you.
The first, so the first day Iwrote in my journal, I don't
know if I can ever be happyagain.
I don't know if this is gonnawork the first day of groups.
I think as soon as we were doneI just crawled back into bed
because I was so overwhelmed andI still didn't see a path to
(28:46):
where or how that would trulyhelp me.
Yeah.
Um, and yeah, it is by far themost intense thing I have ever
done in my life.
There were some sessions that Iwas literally physically
uncomfortable.
There was one session with mytherapist that I wish there was
like a time lapse video of,because I'm sitting on this
(29:07):
Adirondack chair cause we wereout in San Diego in the sun and
I'm just like rubbing my handson the chair like the entire
time I'm squirming, I'm souncomfortable.
But my therapist was amazing andyou know, she would just keep
pulling and get this stuff outof me.
I'm like, where did this comefrom?
(29:28):
And then she would totallyvalidate it.
"Of course.
Of course.
I understand why you would feelthat way and let's figure out
how we move forward." Yeah.
So yeah, it was the best, ohmaybe not the best six weeks of
my life.
I don't know.
Kat (29:49):
So let's get this straight.
So the best days of your lifehave been checking into
inpatient mental health, like aninpatient mental health facility
and running a marathon with alot of hills four times.
Theodora (30:03):
I don't know what this says about my personality.
Kat (30:08):
I think it's really helpful to understand like exactly what
all that looks like and like howyou got to that point.
And I think no one fucking evertalks about it.
Right.
That's a really good point ever.
Like I've never, I can't, Ilistened to a million podcasts,
I listened to him, I've listenedto a million discussions about
mental health.
I've never really heard someonetalk about,"Here are the false
starts that I've had.
(30:30):
And then here's like when thingsgot real bad, and then here's
when I said, all right, I'mgoing to do nothing about this.
And I did it.
Thank you so much for sharingall of that.
Um, I really feel like we don't,we don't have candid
conversations about what likethis truly what you just walked
through is truly a mental healthjourney.
(30:52):
And I feel like we don't havethat conversation enough right
now.
Theodora (30:56):
We either see people like in the midst of it or you
see people who have like zerovisibility to like where they
are, what they're going through.
Right.
Or you see like the shiny happysuccess story, right.
Kat (31:07):
Exactly.
Like, Oh, I'm, here's my story.
I went to therapy and now I'mfixed.
Which by the way, not a realthing.
Right.
Like, it's basically, yeah, Iknow, like therapy just gives
you the tools to continue to fixyourself for the rest of your
life.
You know?
Theodora (31:20):
That's a great way to put.
(31:21):
Like probably at some point, or maybe you'll need to go back
into therapy.
So I'm not currently seeing atherapist, but I, it's not, it
would not be surprising to me ifat some point in my life I'm
back in a place where I needsome additional tools, um, that
I don't have quite yet.
So, um, yeah.
(31:41):
So I would love to kind oftransition into like what, what
creativity has kind of meant toyou or looked like for you along
the way.
Um, how you use like creativepractices and here this can mean
literally anything.
It can mean, obviously you're awriter, you've got your podcast.
(32:02):
Um, even things like, honestlyjust picking out like which
healing crystals or like I'mlooking at your bracelets, which
are amazing.
Theodora (32:09):
I'm wearing four different beaded bracelets right
now.
Kat (32:12):
Yeah.
And they're gorgeous.
Theodora (32:14):
Five.
Yeah.
Um, but things like that, that Ithink, I mean, that's a creative
practice.
Like figuring out like, oh, whatcombination of things do I need
to like get through the day?
So I guess I've, I've alwaysbeen a writer.
I was gonna say, I've alwaysconsidered myself a writer, but
that's actually kind of a lie.
(32:35):
Even though I have a journalismmajor and have been working in
creative and content stuff sinceI graduated.
Kat (32:43):
But isn't it interesting?
So you haven't, okay.
So from my, to my mind, you'vealways been a writer.
True.
You've always consideredyourself a writer, maybe not
true.
There's this idea that like, oh,I'm only a writer if they write
in the specific under thesespecific circumstances or I'm
getting paid for it, or otherpeople are reading my work or
(33:04):
whatever.
And like frankly, if you write,you're right.
It's just not true.
If you sit down and write,you're a writer.
Right?
Theodora (33:11):
So right after my mom died, so since I'd started this
blog, you know, basicallyeverything I had written up
until my mom died, I did writefor public consumption.
Yeah.
I had never really written formyself at all.
I was a journalism major and ablogger.
I was used to writing for otherpeople.
One of my friends at the timewho had lost both of her parents
(33:34):
was like, you know, you shouldreally start journaling.
I did that when I lost myparents and it was really
helpful.
I am so grateful that my friendsuggested it because losing your
mother, you have more emotionsthan you know what to do with
more emotion being flooded withmore emotions than I ever had in
(33:57):
my entire life.
Kat (33:58):
And new ones that are like, what?
I don't, I don't recognize this.
I don't know how to name this.
Yeah.
Theodora (34:05):
And you know, talking to friends, going to therapy,
still, none of that was enoughto get all of this out of my
head.
Yeah.
So I started journaling.
I started transitioning some ofmy writing more into personal
essays.
So it was really, at that time,kind of a combination of both
(34:26):
writing for myself and lettingmyself explore all of those
feelings and exploring all ofthose feelings kind of took my
professional writing in adifferent direction that I, you
know, I don't think I everwould've been able to find you
(34:46):
without doing that writing formyself and doing that.
That's so interesting.
I love that deep reflectionthat, you know, I don't think I
could have done if I were tryingto blog about that.
Kat (34:56):
Because you can't, there are certain things that you
would never put in a blog postbecause you, you, you're allowed
to have boundaries.
You're allowed to have thingsthat you keep inside that other
people don't get to know aboutand yet it's probably still very
valuable for you to know aboutthose things.
On a level, like a, a consciouslevel where it's not just like
(35:20):
I've got all this buried shitthat I've never examined.
Like at this, I suspect like andI, it's interesting that we're
having this conversation aboutjournaling today.
Cause as I mentioned, I'm goingto write a journal, a journaling
class, I think it's calledjournaling 101 tonight because I
have decided that I need tostart journaling.
Um, I did all through likejunior high and high school, but
(35:40):
I really have dropped thatpractice as an adult and I kind
of think like it would bebeneficial to me as well.
So, yeah.
Theodora (35:47):
No, I mean I, I kind of think of it as really just
like a life changing practice.
So I did a little bit ofresearch on, you know, kind of
why it's so helpful.
It's so cool.
Kat (35:57):
Yeah, I would love to hear about that.
Thank you for coming betterprepared than I did Theodora
shows up and I'm like, so I justwant you to know, uh, I didn't
do any prep work for this andI'm hoping we can just do our
usual conversational stuff.
Theodora (36:12):
I knew that I would babble, so I wanted to at least
know, yeah, things, but I meanjournaling it like helps you
access things that you wouldn'totherwise.
And creativity is so helpful formental health because it focuses
the mind and it's even beencompared to meditation.
Kat (36:33):
Wow.
Right.
Okay.
That's awesome.
And that is new information tome.
So I love that, but at the sametime though, it kind of makes
sense that it's meditativebecause at least for me with
writing, um, you get into aflow, you get into a flow and
like my brain will often justalmost go blank.
And then, I mean, unless I'mlike trying to solve a problem
(36:55):
in like a work of fiction, let'ssay, where I actually have to
like consciously think about it.
And yet even still sometimesgoing for a walk and freeing
myself of it will help.
Um, but I do find there's sortof this, there are these like
lulls in my, when I'm really inflow, like my brain goes blank
and then I just have like thereare words, they're coming from
somewhere, they're landing on apage.
(37:15):
Um, but it's not me.
It's not my brain, my overactivebrain that's like creating this.
Theodora (37:24):
Right.
And so actually fun facts.
Oh, awesome.
I love fun facts when you getinto that kind of flow.
So I mean, when you createthings, you're creating tangible
results and creating thosetangible results turns into your
brain releasing dopamine.
Kat (37:45):
Oh, right.
Wait, that makes total sense.
There's a science reason behindthis.
Theodora (37:51):
There's physical effects that it's having on your
brain.
It's literally being creativeliterally changes your brain.
Kat (37:57):
Oh my God.
That's amazing.
We have, by the way, I'mclipping that for like the
Internet.
Yeah.
Being creative literally changesyour brain.
Wow.
That's amazing.
Oh my God.
Thank you for validating myentire podcast.
Theodora (38:12):
Entire life.
Kat (38:13):
Yeah.
Seriously.
My entire life.
Thank you for validating myentire life, my entire
existence.
Um, wow.
That's so cool.
Um, yeah.
And so like, well, so that allmakes sense.
And then, I don't know, is thereanything, so as you, like, what
do you think has most changedabout like your creative work or
(38:34):
your creative over the pastcouple of years while you've
been dealing with all of thisstuff that you've been dealing
with?
Theodora (38:42):
Wow.
That's a good question.
You know, so actually last year,right after I got out of the
hospital, I went to a writingretreat.
Kat (38:52):
Yeah, that's right.
And our friend Lara went too,right?
Theodora (38:53):
Yeah.
Kat (38:54):
Right.
Cool.
Theodora (38:55):
Yes.
Um, and that was honestly kindof life changing.
Like if I look back at lastyear, that is probably the
highlight of my year.
Yeah.
And so I would say that thatreally changed things in, I
really felt like it was okay toconsider myself a writer or to
(39:19):
consider myself an artist.
That if I had things to put outin the world that they were
valuable, that my contributioncreatively and artistically
mattered just as much as theperson sitting next to me.
Kat (39:33):
Yeah.
Well my whole, one of the thingsI really like that I think has
been repeated ad nauseum is thisidea that like only you are the
like what your creative outputor whatever you're putting out
into the world, you areliterally the only person who
can do it exactly in your way.
Um, so I listened to thispodcast, it's called, so she's
(39:55):
@thealisonshow on Instagram, buther, her podcast is Awesome with
Alison.
I started listening to that afew times about it.
Love her.
I think she like amazing energy,but her like closing line is
always only you can be you andyou're already as awesome as you
need to be.
And Like I love that and it'sjust, it's such a good reminder.
Um, but yeah, this idea thatonly you can be you, cause I
(40:17):
think we're all so self criticaland like, right, these are like
the things that are wrong withme that everyone else has nailed
and everyone else's sayingperfectly all the time always.
I mean everyone has those thingsbut it almost doesn't matter
because whatever your mix ofstuff is, you are truly the only
(40:40):
person in the entire world whois going to be you.
And that's a good thing.
Theodora (40:44):
Damn.
So one of the other things thatwas really transformative, um,
all of these have taken, leavingNew York, by the way too, to
find.
Kat (40:57):
That actually might be a pattern that you should explore.
Maybe I don't want to be here.
Oh wait, you are exploring it.
Theodora (41:03):
I'm moving to California next week!
Kat (41:04):
But it's like not, I think this feels, this version of
moving to California.
It feels very different from thelike dipping my toe into leaving
California that you did before.
Theodora (41:16):
Yeah.
No, totally.
Um, but when, so when I was intreatment, they had us do art
therapy the first day.
I was like, oh good God.
Yeah.
Like my art is words.
I, I don't know about any ofthis visual shit.
Yeah.
And we started every art therapywith meditation.
Yup.
Um, sort of like kind of pre getyourself into a flow and you
(41:38):
know, we did stuff like paintingand drawing and of course I
start in, most of us startedwith, well, I'm not an artist.
And like if I can't do thisperfect, then it's not good.
I never considered myself aperfectionist because I was
like, well, my output isn'tperfect, so therefore I'm not a
perfectionist.
(41:58):
No, that's not true.
But over the course of all ofthis art therapy, which I mean,
there were some days that I waskicking and screaming inside,
not wanting to go.
Um, you know, because that kindof art brings a lot of feelings
out too, which I had neverreally considered it because I
just didn't consider myself anartist.
(42:19):
Right.
Um, you know, and being aprofessional writer, a lot of my
thinking is, okay, how can Imonetize this?
Yes.
How can I make more money on myblog?
How can I pitch this to x, Y, Zoutlet?
Kat (42:36):
It's like, it almost turns your life into like a content
farm or something.
Like you're just going toinstantly track content, ties
everything you're doing and thatcan't be healthy.
Theodora (42:50):
But it, it really gave me permission to do things and
suck at them and still getenjoyment out of them.
Which other than surfing,surfing is the thing that I've
loved.
But say it's my favorite thing.
I Suck at other than surfing, Idon't know if I've ever let
myself do that in my life.
Kat (43:09):
So that's me with running.
Like I'm allowed to be bad atthis, which I think has been a
very healthy thing for me toovercome.
My like achievement orientedperfectionist tendencies.
You're in New York tendencies.
Yeah, I don't know.
I didn't grow up here.
Like I clearly don't.
I like that you're lying and I'mported.
That shit.
True.
Theodora (43:27):
True.
Um, but yeah, I started, youknow, I started doing stuff like
drawing and being shitty at it.
Coloring and not always beingable to stay in the lines even
though I'm 36, I'm like, I loveit.
When I was a little kid, sidenote, they said that I lacked
motor skills.
I'm 36 and I think I still do.
(43:47):
I might attribute it to drinkingtoo much caffeine.
I'm gonna that's my story andI'm sticking to it.
Um, you know, I, I actually ammade one of the bracelets that
I'm wearing.
Um, you know, so giving myselfpermission to do that kind of
stuff.
Realizing through the course ofall the notes that I took
throughout this, Oh, I actuallyhave pretty good handwriting.
(44:08):
Play with lettering andrealizing that I could get into
all of that stuff and you couldfeel good and I didn't have to
walk into Michael's and be like,I want to do this, but I suck at
it.
Kat (44:32):
I mean, have you seen my, like my mind, like kind of meta
artwork that I did that says Iam not afraid to make bad art.
Yes.
Soif you look at it, it's right.
Yeah.
It's like right in my livingroom and I like, I feel like, I
love that as a reminder of like,I think and my other, my other
thing is like, bad art is betterthan no art.
It's way better.
Yeah.
Um, so I love this and I thinkalso there's like the thing
(44:54):
about calling yourself anartist, I think one thing, at
least a struggle for me hasbeen, oh, well I'm not a visual
artist so I can call myself anartist.
Yeah.
And I don't believe thatanymore, but I still think it's
like a little bit of a stumblingblock sometimes when I'm like,
like my friend Lauren is thisbrilliant visual artist.
(45:16):
She is a painter.
She's extremely gifted.
Um, and so, you know, sometimesI'll go to her studio and I'll
see the work that she's done orI'll go to a show that she's
done and I'm like, I'm not onthat level, therefore I don't
deserve this title.
Theodora (45:32):
And I never considered myself an artist because I've
only ever written nonfiction,either journalism or now, you
know, kind of creativenonfiction.
Yeah.
But yeah, it took me awhile toembrace that.
I'm air quotes artistic.
Kat (45:49):
Totally.
Well, I mean, the name of thispodcast is how to be creative.
Right.
And I do believe so.
Like I'm a big fan of, um,Creative Mornings events, which
I go to the ones in New York,but they have them in over 200
cities around the world now.
So check out the LA one.
Um, yeah, I'm going to, I, it'samazing.
But their creative manifestobegins and I'm going to butcher
(46:11):
it probably, but it begins with,we believe that everyone is
creative and like, I reallythink that, and it's, I don't
know, like I have conversationswith people sometimes where
they're like, oh, you're socreative, I'm not creative.
At all, and I've heard this frompeople that I think are, you
know, creative geniuses in theirown right.
Their creativity might not looklike mine.
They might not, you know, sitdown and like write a novel or
(46:34):
like write an essay about theirfeelings or whatever.
But I mean, you can be creativewithin the confines of like a
PowerPoint deck, you know, nowthat entirely possible, you're
telling, you're doing visualstorytelling.
And I don't think that way atall.
So to me that is like someartistic magic, right?
Theodora (46:53):
Yeah.
Being able to put together agood deck is a skillset.
Kat (46:58):
Yeah.
And then the people who designthose decks, I don't know,
artistry looks like a lot ofdifferent things.
And again, I think it's just,we've, we've grown up with this
cultural assumption that like,no, it looks like one way or
like one of three ways.
And like anything else outsideof that isn't art.
(47:20):
So I also wanted to talk about,um, sort of what creativity
looks like for you on a dailybasis.
Like, what is your sort of likecreative maintenance, what does
that look like?
Theodora (47:31):
That's a really good question.
So yeah, maintenance is a reallygood word for it because I mean
both my mental stability and mycreativity kind of get I guess
off center when I'm not doingthese things daily.
Kat (47:46):
Same.
Ooh yikes.
Cause I feel called out by thatcomment.
Theodora (47:52):
So for me, I mean I'm a freelancer so I can design my
day however I want to.
And I always say that that's whyI like freelancing yet until a
few months ago I was stilltrying to keep myself completely
on a nine to five schedule.
Like if I wasn't sitting at mydesk in my apartment by nine,
(48:15):
then I was slacking.
Yeah.
And.
Kat (48:19):
Wow.
Capitalism.
Theodora (48:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So for me it's been realizingthat if I don't do the daily
things I need to do, which forme before I can start working.
And again, I'm lucky that I havethe luxury because I freelance.
But you know, it's journaling,it's meditating, it's
(48:45):
exercising.
Um, sometimes, and it's gettingbetter now that the weather's
good in New York, but you know,it's taking a walk if I can and
just slowing down for a littlebit and like taking life in a
little bit rather than justrushing to the next thing.
(49:05):
This is the whole newrealization for me because it's
very new.
Kat (49:06):
Yeah.
Well, and we talked about this,we, we grabbed breakfast before
work last week and talked alittle bit about this, which I
think is like a natural topic ofconversation when you're like,
oh yeah, we both made space inour lives to do this before we
were starting our work day.
Right.
Um, but yeah, I think it's so,there's such a tendency to like
(49:30):
rush through everything in orderto like do the things that are
quote unquote important.
Um, which in my experience hasoften meant putting other
people's priorities first,right.
And ahead of my own.
And when I have gotten too muchinto that mindset of like, I
need to be doing this, I need tobe doing that versus, oh, let me
(49:51):
slow down and be present where Iam.
Like, do things that aremeaningful to me and that make
my life feel bigger and more, Idunno, complete maybe, for lack
of a better word.
Yeah.
So I love that.
Theodora (50:05):
I mean rushing is just not the lifestyle that I want
anymore, which is also why I'mleaving New York.
Yeah.
But, you know, for me, and youknow, since I'm a freelancer, a
lot of what I do is puttingmyself out there and pitching
and like with pretty highrejection rates.
Yeah.
You know, so it's really easy toget for me to get into the
(50:26):
mindset.
Like I suck.
Like no one's going to buy mywork.
So this is so cheesy actually tocheese and things.
Um, I, a lot of times before Istart working, I write
affirmations to myself.
Kat (50:43):
I love it.
No, that's supposed to be sogood for you.
I don't do it and I probablyshould.
Theodora (50:48):
Um, I don't do it as much as I should, but you know,
I write like, you're awesome oryou got this or you know,
whatever I'm feeling insecureabout.
Like I try and tell myself theopposite thing.
Um, and also, and we talkedabout this before we started
recording, but gratitude, youknow, something that like
literally every therapist thatsuggested to me and um, when I
(51:10):
started doing it, I realizedthey suggested it for a reason
that it does help.
Kat (51:15):
Right.
And like I think the most commonform of that is like a gratitude
journal.
But I think it can look like, Ithink what I heard, and this is
not any sort of likeprofessional literature, it's
more like me hearing like fivedifferent people on five
different podcasts say it.
Um, is that the, the importantthing is to have it have it as a
(51:36):
practice.
It has to be a practice becauseif it's not a regular routine
thing that is just built intoyour life, then you're not
reaping the benefits of it.
Theodora (51:46):
I've also been trying lately, like a few months ago, I
would never include myself or myskills or my abilities on it.
It was entirely outwardlyfocused.
Kat (51:58):
Oh my God, I love that.
Theodora (51:59):
Sometimes, well, often, coffee makes it on it.
I am grateful for coffee everyday, but sometimes it made me
really acknowledge my privilegeand realize I have a functioning
heater during the New York Citywinter.
I have a coat that keeps mewarm.
(52:24):
Um, I know I'm just going toswing it back to myself, to go
from being very outwardlyfocused, very inwardly focused.
But you know, lately I've beenwriting like my strength or my
courage to share my story.
You know, like I've been tryingto find something in myself that
I'm grateful for that I canacknowledge.
(52:46):
Which is new.
Kat (52:47):
Theodora.
I love that.
I love that so much and I don'tthink it's honestly, I don't
think it's um, like solipsisticor like too inward looking at
all.
Like, I think it's sort of thatvery, um, kind of overstated.
Yeah.
Sorry, go ahead.
Theodora (53:04):
It help me figure out like what my places in this
world and what I can bring toit.
Yeah.
So I was gonna say, agreed and Iwas gonna say, um, so there's
like that really kind ofhackneyed, overused phrase about
putting on your own oxygen maskbefore you, you know, you know
what I'm talking about?
Like I don't really everythingeveryone, I feel like I can't
(53:27):
read, listen to you or otherwiseconsume anything that doesn't
mention that.
I'm laughing because I'm notsure if you remember this, but
when you were on my podcast, Itried to make that analogy and I
called it a gas mask.
Kat (53:43):
[ Laughter] Yeah.
But yeah, so, but like that, butthat idea, and the reason why
it's repeated so often isbecause it's true.
Um, you, in order for you to goout in the world and kind of
provide what you bring to thetable, you need to be caring for
yourself.
(54:04):
You need to be aware of whatyour strengths are so that as
you say, you can share them withothers.
Um, and it's like, it's not, Idon't, I don't know how to say
this, but like it's, it's goodto like yourself.
It's not self-serving.
It's not like honestly ifanything, people who don't like
themselves, it manifests asnarcissism.
(54:26):
It manifests as,
Theodora (54:28):
I mean more trite sayings, but hurt people hurt
people.
Kat (54:31):
Yes.
So true.
And like, it's ego bullshit thatlike you have to spew outward
outwardly.
It's projecting shit about thatyou don't like about yourself,
onto the people closest to you.
It's stuff like that and like,um, you know, I sometimes if I'm
trying to have compassion forsomeone who is, um, really toxic
(54:56):
or borderline abusive, um, I tryto remember like, oh, this is
just this person who hasn'tdealt with childhood trauma.
Um, I'm not, uh, not at theplace I'd like to be with, like
that type of generosity.
Theodora (55:10):
You're human.
Kat (55:12):
But it's, I mean, I think it's probably true.
Like, why would you, why wouldyou put that out into the world
unless there was something goingon right in you that you haven't
quite grappled with yet?
So I don't know.
I really appreciate that and I,I honestly, it's a reminder that
I needed.
So thank you.
Theodora (55:27):
You're welcome.
Kat (55:29):
So, um, as we begin to wrap up Theodora thank you so much
for joining me today.
I feel like our conversationsare always like, I always walk
away from them with like abetter sense of kind of where
I'm at, which is interestingcause like we just talked about
like a lot of like, you know,your mental health journey.
But I think because we have somuch in common, like it like
(55:52):
kind of brings things up for methat I'm like, oh I hadn't
thought about it that way.
So thank you so much.
I feel like I'm benefitingsecondhand from like your
inpatient therapy.
Theodora (56:01):
A lot of people in my life have actually said that.
Kat (56:04):
it's so true.
Well and that's, that's actuallya perfect example of what we
were just talking about.
When you take care of yourself,make it, it branches out and it
goes outwards.
So thank you for taking care ofyourself and also thank you for
joining me today.
Theodora (56:17):
This was a lot of fun.
Thank you so much for having me.
Outro (56:25):
So that's this week's episode of how to be creative.
As always, you can find shownotes, including a complete
episode transcript and links toeverything discussed at
howtobecreative.org.
You're listening to How to Be Creative, a podcast about
what it means to be creativeacross different disciplines,
industries, life circumstances,and career structures.
You'll learn tips for fittingcreativity into your daily life
and hear from a bunch ofdifferent people about how being
creative has helped them reachgoals, open doors, and live a
more rewarding or at least moreinteresting life.
(00:25):
I'm your host, Kat O'Leary, andI'm excited to introduce you to
some of my favorite creatives,as well as to the tools that
help me get my most crucial workdone.
Kat (00:37):
So today my guest is my friend Theodora Blanchfield and
Theodora is a writer who writesabout mental health and fitness.
She she does that at PreppyRunner, at preppyrunner.com,
right?
Yup.
And then, um, she also podcastsat this may be oversharing
because Theodora believes thatthe stuff that we don't talk
(00:58):
about is the stuff we most needto talk about.
So Theodora and I have beenfriends for a few years.
We met through our volunteerwork.
Um, and I asked her to join theshow today to talk a little bit
about creativity as a mentalhealth practice.
Um, so Theodora I don't knowwhere you want to get started on
that and maybe it makes sense totalk a little bit about your
(01:20):
mental health journey and whatis that, what that has looked
like and then kind of, um, howit's sort of evolved your
creative work from, um, youknow, originally you were really
more focused on like the healthand fitness part of this, that
world.
Um, and now it's really, um,more of like an overall wellness
(01:42):
, um, kind of thing where likeyou talk a lot and very candidly
about your mental health, whichI think is awesome and stuff
that a lot of people need tohear and need to talk about.
Sorry.
Theodora (01:52):
First of all, thank you so much for having me.
Yes.
Okay.
I had my, I'm gonna embarrassyou.
I mean, no, please do hire yourcreativity.
So I'm honored that you admiremine.
Um, so I mean, I think really mymental health and creativity
stuff kind of go together andare interwoven.
So like Kat said, I startedblogging at, well it was
(02:14):
originally called Losing Weightin the City.
I started blogging there inMarch, 2009 which is 10 years.
Kat (02:21):
Yes.
That's so amazing.
Congratulations! Your blog is infifth grade.
Theodora (02:27):
Well, if you put that way.
Yeah.
Um, time is weird.
Um, I started blogging therebecause I was 2000, like I said,
2009 right after the recession,I was working at a legal print
magazine, which was every bit asfun as it sounded.
Kat (02:46):
That was DC, right?
Theodora (02:47):
No, that was here.
I had been working in an act ofpolitical trade magazine in D C
and I want him to get up, moveup here and in lifestyle, but I
kind of got pigeonholed intoworking for trade magazines.
I started working for thatmagazine in June, 2008 so I
(03:10):
learned a few months later thatI was just lucky to have a job.
But I was lucky as I was to havea job then it didn't mean I
liked it.
Right.
So I was also trying to loseweight.
I was trying to lose 50 poundsfor a friend's wedding and Aruba
and I decided, okay, I needdigital skills, I want to lose
(03:33):
weight.
Let me kind of start doing thetwo together.
You know, typical blog story.
Didn't think anyone, but my momwould read.
Kat (03:46):
At least your mom read it.
I feel like a lot of people'sparents are eating on this
podcast, so we have pastries infront of us.
Yeah.
Um, but I feel like honestly noteveryone's parents support their
art.
Even just having your mom that'slike better than a lot of people
are doing.
Theodora (04:03):
That's true.
Um, yeah.
So I started, I didn't, didn'treally know what I was doing,
kind of figured it out along theway.
Like if I look back at those oldposts, like they are incredibly
cringe-worthy, like terribleiPhone photos.
Not that my photography hasrisen to some elevated level.
Um, iPhones have just gottenbetter.
(04:27):
But my blog kind of started, youknow, I guess really following
my journey and like Kat said,you know, at the beginning that
was weight loss and I lost theweight successfully, thankfully
started parlaying the blog intomoving into a career in social
media, which was also part of mygoal.
(04:48):
And then I got really, reallyinto running and with a blog
called Losing Weight in theCity, people would be like, oh,
are you trying to lose weight?
And I'd be like, are you sayingI looked like I needed to?
Kat (05:01):
And it just became an awkward title and basically
turned something that I thinkwas probably very personal for
you despite having a public blogabout it, like into like an
invitation for other people tocomment.
Theodora (05:11):
to comment on my weight,
Kat (05:12):
which is disgusting.
Theodora (05:13):
Yes, exactly.
So in 2013 I had become prettyobsessed with running at that
point I was training for, Ithink it was my fourth marathon.
I was training for the New YorkCity Marathon and I was trying
to break four hours, which Idid.
Kat (05:32):
Oh my God, you're amazing.
Theodora (05:33):
Which is honestly still one of the best days of my
life.
Kat (05:36):
Wow.
Um, that's incredible.
And as someone who ran the NewYork marathon in November and
did not have a great day, I likeadmire you even more.
Theodora (05:45):
The four times that I've run the New York marathon
have been four of the best daysof my life.
I've been lucky.
I've had really goodexperiences.
Um, so I changed my blog toPreppy Runner then and it was at
that point, that was when I alsostarted writing about mental
health stuff.
I was connect curse.
Yeah.
(06:06):
Excellent.
I was at a really shitty job andI started having these really
terrible panic attacks because Ifelt like nothing I could do at
this job was right.
Yeah.
I've been there.
Yup.
And I one day had to go home andgo straight to my doctor because
I was having such a bad panicattack.
I got to my doctor, my bloodpressure was something like one
(06:29):
40 or one 50 over like ahundred.
And I was like, this isn't okay.
And she gave me a prescriptionfor Xanax.
I wrote about this all a fewdays later on my blog and just
the outpouring of support andcomments that I got was amazing.
And you know, obviously I'vebeen afraid to share something
(06:53):
that personal and that raw.
This was also six years ago whenmental health wasn't as big of a
part of the conversation.
Kat (07:01):
Yeah, that's a really good point.
Theodora (07:05):
And I was like, okay, um, this is a thing.
I can talk about this, I canstart this conversation.
So that was 2013.
I'm 20 actually at the end ofthat year, I got laid off and
started a new job that sameyear.
The new job that I started wasbasically the polar opposite of
(07:26):
the old job.
I loved it.
Everyone was so supportive,except the anxiety still
continued.
Because at that point I waslike, oh, this is too good to be
true.
Kat (07:36):
Oh yeah, I think that's a very normal experience.
Theodora (07:42):
The other shoe, I was afraid the other shoe was going
to drop.
Anytime I saw my coworkerstalking, I was confused about
was about me.
Kat (07:50):
And the fact that you were gonna get fired.
Yep.
Um, so it's interesting cause I,sorry to interrupt you.
Like I had a very commonexperience so I had a horrible
four months into the job fromthe fall of 2016 to early 2017
and um, yeah.
And it was, it was horrific.
(08:10):
It was so horrific that likewhen I left that job, the most
overpowering, um, feeling that Iassumed that I had through that
experience was relief eventhough I didn't have anything
else lined up yet.
But I, I've been, fortunately itwas interviewing, etc.
But when I first started the jobthat I have now, which I love
and is the polar opposite of thetoxic environment that I'd been
(08:32):
in, I had the same thing.
Like I was constantly worried.
Like even if I made, anytime Imade a tiny mistake, I thought I
was going to get fired, which islike, actually that's not what
happens at a healthy workplacewith normal people.
Yeah.
It's like a bad relationship ormanaging their own stuff and
like aren't super ego-driven andare like just basically kind,
normal people.
(08:53):
So I totally relate.
So sorry to interrupt you withthat sidebar, but yeah, I get
it.
Theodora (08:57):
Yeah.
It's, I think it's a prettycommon experience.
And I think another thing thatwe don't talk about, you know,
people are like, oh, it's justwork.
But it's not.
Kat (09:04):
No it's not.
And in New York, especially inNew York or New York.
Theodora (09:08):
Where we live at our jobs, we're defined by our job.
Um, but I had started therapywhen I started having the panic
attacks and you know, was stillafter I got let go from that
job, I was still anxious causethen I didn't have a job and I
was looking for a job and wasconvinced I was never going to
find one because I was thisterrible employee and terrible
(09:30):
person because I got let go.
Um, so once I started the newjob I was like, oh, everything's
fine.
I don't need therapy anymore.
But I realized how much thosebeliefs that the other shoe was
gonna drop, that everyone wastalking about me, how pervasive
they were and how they werereally affecting my ability to
(09:52):
do my job.
To do this job that I loved.
Yeah.
So I started therapy again.
I was in the, I guess the springof 2014 and haven't really
stopped since then.
I tried and I'm skipping arounda little bit now, but I tried,
I've tried twice in those fiveyears to stop therapy.
(10:15):
Um, both times my mom gotdiagnosed with cancer.
Yeah.
One time was the first time andthen it came back and I was
like, okay, so bad things happenwhen I stopped there.
Get so not good.
Stop there.
[inaudible].
Kat (10:30):
What a mind fuck that is though.
Right?
Right.
Yet you're like, oh, I did this.
I cause this, I stopping therapyand I'm bad.
I'm like, I mean I worked sohard to break myself of the
pattern of like thinking like,Oh, you know, everything bad
that happens is a punishment forme not doing what I'm supposed
to do.
And I actually think now thatnow that I'm thinking about it,
(10:51):
um, I have more or less brokenmyself with that pattern.
Thank you therapy.
Um, but like at that level, likeI can't even imagine.
That's, yeah.
I mean, but you did not causeyour mom to get sick.
Right.
Theodora (11:07):
Right.
I know that stopping therapy didnot cause that, but it certainly
felt like it.
Yeah.
Um, but so, you know, I hadstarted therapy kind of
addressing anxiety.
I got really deep to the rootsof all the anxiety and it mostly
went away no sooner than it wentaway.
Did I start getting reallydepressed?
(11:27):
Yeah.
Which my therapist at the timetold me was pretty normal.
Yeah.
Um, and I kind of had what feltlike seasonal blues that just
didn't go away for six or sevenmonths.
And that was when I finallyconsented to start taking
(11:49):
medication.
Yeah.
Um, my therapist had suggestedbefore and I was like, oh, I
don't need that.
And I was like, you know what?
This has been going on seven oreight months that I felt this
way.
Like, enough is enough.
And so I'm a, as I said earlier,I'd love to run and I was
injured at the time that Istarted.
I decided to start takingmedication.
(12:11):
Not being able to run was likemy last straw.
Like it was one of my biggestcoping skills at the time.
Kat (12:18):
I was going to say running is like I started running during
business school because I, and Idon't want to get into a huge
other conversation about this,but, um, like I went through a
horrible breakup, the verybeginning of business school and
I at the time like was so I hadso much anxiety I could not
(12:38):
breathe.
And I was like, well, I caneither take a shot of whiskey,
not a great idea when your classis starting before 9:00 AM or I
can like go run.
Even I would just run like oneor two miles.
And like even that like runningbecame a huge coping strategy
for me and like.
Theodora (12:57):
Or you could run and then take a shot of whiskey.
Kat (12:59):
Yeah, that's true.
But probably not before drivingto class or like going to class
at like eight 30 in the morning.
Yeah.
But yeah, no, I think running,running like was basically uh,
like started as like a form of,I don't like to say this.
(13:25):
I need to think a little bitabout how I want to say this,
but like to me it's like a formof therapy but I do not at all
think.
Theodora (13:30):
It's very therapeutic but it's not therapy.
Kat (13:33):
That's a good way of putting it.
Thank you.
Yeah.
People say running is therapy inthat it's like, like what am I
biggest actually scares me causeI'm like are you get, are you
doing all the other stuff youneed to maintain your mental
health?
Like, and I don't want toproject like not, I mean I think
therapy's amazing.
I've learned so much aboutmyself through it.
Um, I also don't like to projectlike my own stuff onto other
(13:54):
people.
Like I think that there aremultiple ways to get to a place
where you're able to manage yourmental health in a way that
works for you.
And like therapy I think is avery strong version of that.
But it's not, everything is foreveryone all the time, always,
you know, so yeah.
Theodora (14:14):
So yeah.
So without running as, you know,one of my biggest coping skills
in my life, I was like, no.
Like I just can't anymore.
I started taking medication.
Then three months after that mymom got diagnosed with cancer.
So kind of in retrospect, I waslike, well, I'm glad I'm already
on medication.
(14:35):
Um, my mom got diagnosed withovarian cancer, the long story
short of that, she had maybe sixmonths or so, she was in
treatment.
She responded so well.
She went into remission andreally like, okay, great.
Like this was, this is John thatchapters over.
This was like the shitty timethat we had in our lives that we
(14:56):
had to go through and like,we're good now.
We're good.
Everything can return to normal.
So we were really lucky and thateverything did kind of return to
normal for about four months.
And looking back, I'm sograteful now that we had those
four months.
Yeah.
Um, but then she, and duringthose four months is when I was
(15:18):
like, everything is great now.
My mommy better.
Um, I love my job.
I've made, I've gotten theanxiety under control.
Cool.
Stop therapy.
Yeah.
Stop for like two weeks.
And then she got the cancer cameback and I was like, okay.
So yeah I'm going back totherapy.
So unfortunately the second timearound she did not respond as
(15:43):
well to treatment as she did thefirst time around.
Had this really big emergencysurgery in December of 2016 she
had an emergency bowelresection.
Friends who are doctors didn'ttell me at the time, but that
even without cancers andincredibly risky surgery, it's
(16:03):
like 50% survival rate.
Like I'm glad nobody told methat at the time.
Well I think it makes sensethough cause my, I mean it makes
sense for them not to tell youthey're going to do with that.
Kat (16:14):
It doesn't, it doesn't change the reality.
And also it, I dunno, I thinklike people have talked a lot
about like, patients who have,you know, who are, have a
positive outlook and have hopeare more like to and like, so
for you it's PR and your mom isprobably good for you to have
(16:34):
like, yeah.
That kind of energy around herversus like, you secretly know
that like this is, I mean, I'msure she knew the odds and
didn't tell you either, butright.
Theodora (16:42):
Yeah.
I think we all knew but didn'twant to acknowledge it.
Yeah.
Except for my dad who called thepriest for last rights and I was
like, nope, this lady is notdying.
So, uh, no.
Kat (16:54):
Yeah, I think that's so dad-like though, right?
It's like what practical taskscan I take on?
Theodora (16:59):
And it's like, I appreciate that, but like think
a little bit about how that'sgoing to be received right now.
And he said it right in front ofher too and I was like, nope,
nope, nope.
You go outside.
Yeah.
You go outside right now.
So the very long story short ofthat is that that was really
kind of the beginning of theend.
(17:19):
Um, you know, thing after thingwent wrong.
Um, she never recovered from it.
So she passed away in July of2017 and clearly I'm still going
to therapy throughout all ofthis.
I, you know, knew it was coming.
It was very obvious when all ofher bodily system started
(17:41):
shutting down or needed likemedical assistance.
Like it was, it was pretty clearwhat was happening.
So yeah, my therapist, I talkedabout it a lot and I felt like I
was as prepared as possible tohandle it.
I was in the immediateaftermath.
(18:02):
Um, but that turned into a verylong and very serious mental
health journey.
Um, so that was July of 2017that she passed away.
Six weeks later I got dumped,six weeks after that I got laid
off from this job that I hadreally loved.
(18:25):
Somehow I managed to make itthrough the rest of 2017.
I was running the marathon.
I went to Ireland on a solo tripright after that.
I was focusing on gettingthrough the holidays and getting
my friends and I were going on atrip to South America.
I kept having all these thingsto look forward to.
That kind of kept me hanging on.
Kat (18:47):
But then I think it's also hard to be like to have your
ability to navigate things likedependent on external stuff.
Llike that doesn't work for me.
Sorry like not trying to projectmy stuff onto you, but like for
me if I'm ever like--
Theodora (19:04):
It's a Band-Aid.
Kat (19:05):
Yeah.
To me that that doesn't work.
Theodora (19:06):
So yeah, it got me through until I got back from it
kind of got me through until Igot back from South America.
It kept me, it kept me fromentirely falling apart.
Then I got back from SouthAmerica.
It's mid January in New York,which is a depressing time in
and of itself.
(19:27):
If you don't have shit going on,don't come here to visit then
God, No God, no.
Stay wherever you are unlessit's Alaska, maybe come visit.
Um, and then I also had to faceall of this.
Yeah.
Not having a job, not having mymom.
I honestly couldn't have caredless about this guy.
(19:47):
He was just a Douche.
Kat (19:48):
Right.
But it was one more thing on thepile.
Theodora (19:50):
And there was left to face all of this and things got
really, really dark for me.
Um, I was thinking a lot aboutending it all.
And then that March I had hadbasically what was a really,
(20:10):
really rough weekend for a wholevariety of reasons.
And I came home and after havinga few drinks, I took a handful
of pills.
I immediately regretted it andtook myself to the hospital,
which ended up being a week inthe psych ward.
And going into that, one of my,one of my friends and her mom
(20:34):
came to the hospital and theywere like, oh, you know, you
should go do an inpatient thing.
And I was like, no, I'm good.
I don't need that.
I'm fine.
Not fine, but I don't needsomething dress.
Right.
Kat (20:48):
Yeah.
Because we always have this ideathat that stuffs for other
people.
Theodora (20:51):
Right.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Like, yeah, even checking intothe psych ward, I'm looking
around at everyone and I'm like,this is very privileged and an
asshole.
But like, well, I don't, I don'tlook like them.
Yeah.
I don't belong here.
You know?
Kat (21:07):
I think that's very honest and I think that's, I mean, what
a lot of people probably thinkin that situation.
Theodora (21:14):
On the surface I look like, I think I can look like I
have my shit together.
Yeah.
Um, that did not mean that Ididn't need it.
They asked if I wanted to do anintensive outpatient program,
which was, um, like five days oftherapy a week.
(21:38):
That's like three or four hoursof group therapy.
Like three individual sessions.
Still thought I didn't needthat.
No, I'm okay.
I can manage this.
I'll be okay.
I'll figure it out.
I think I've really thought thatthat was just the wake up call
that I needed and I would beable to pull, pull myself out
(21:59):
from there.
You know, with the help of mytherapist, with the help of my
psychiatrist, I started doingtwice weekly therapy sessions.
Well, it's not really enough.
I like managed to hold thingstogether for a few weeks, fall
apart all over again.
(22:20):
Repeat, repeat, repeat.
Few months later my doctordiagnosed me with bipolar, which
was a terrifying diagnosis toreceive.
Yeah.
Um, but it kind of,
Kat (22:35):
Because it's so stigmatized, right?
I mean that's the thing, right.
And like I will say like I, Ihave throughout my life I've had
several friends diagnosed withbipolar or other mental health
diagnoses that are kind ofsimilarly thought about in our
cultural narrative.
And they are all livingfulfilling productive lives and
(23:02):
a mid like having to man, thisis just one thing you have to
manage.
But I don't think that's thecultural conversation we're
having.
Right.
And I think like, so as a resultof that, like to be given that
diagnosis, it feels more direthan it probably has to be.
Right.
Theodora (23:18):
I mean it is a very serious illness and you know,
untreated, you know, the ratesof suicide and suicide attempts
are much higher than bipolar andI guess other similar diseases
than in the general population.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, but that I think beganstarting to get me on the right
(23:38):
path with the right medications.
I thought I was doing a littlebetter.
I moved to California for thefall.
It was a Band-Aid.
Yeah.
Well it was a Band-Aid I think.
No, I think I knew that goinginto it too, but I had to try
it.
I came back and I came backright before the holidays, took
(24:04):
another big trip, came back,basically it was on this same
crash cycles I'd been on theyear before.
Almost 11 months to the day Iended myself back up in the
hospital.
Literally same exact thing.
Um, even down to, it was aSunday night again.
(24:28):
It was after I'd been out withfriends and had been drinking
and took pills again.
Yeah.
Same time of night.
Like I recognized the doctorsand the nurses that were there
the previous time and thatdidn't feel good.
And I was like, okay, now I'mlike this repeat patient.
And they asked me if I wanted tobe admitted and I was like, no,
(24:50):
but thank you for asking.
Because I knew that the purposeof being admitted to a psych
ward in a general hospital likethat is only to keep you safe
and stable.
And I did believe that I coulddo that temporarily.
Ending myself up in the hospitalagain like that, I realized
(25:11):
immediately that I did need moreserious treatment.
So I started looking upresidential treatment programs,
so meaning going away, um, youknow, being under 24 hours
supervision.
I was terrified.
I was absolutely terrified.
(25:33):
One of my very good friendssaid,"Okay, I'm gonna make you a
deal.
I'm going to help you with theresearch." I was terrified to
tell my dad because I alsoneeded his help paying because
these things are not cheap.
Terrified to tell my dad.
She was like,"I'm gonna help youwith research.
I'm going to call your dad ifyou go." I can't say no to that.
Right.
(25:53):
So I ended up going to a centerin San Diego.
Of course.
Now I wish I had done itearlier.
It was,
Kat (26:04):
But you went when you were ready to go.
I mean, and actually if you'dgone earlier--
Theodora (26:07):
I don't think it would , would've gotten as much out of
it.
Exactly.
Um, like I,
Kat (26:11):
I understand that you need to like re-litigate stuff like
that.
Right?
But like, yeah, cause I do itall the time.
But also, yeah.
You went when you went, when youwere ready to go.
Yeah.
And even going into it,
Theodora (26:23):
I still don't know how ready I was.
I was going, I was going forother people.
I wasn't going for myself.
Yeah.
I was going because I knew thatpeople in my life were worried
and it didn't feel fair to keepdoing this to them.
Kat (26:35):
I think that's a form of readiness though.
Yeah, I guess you know, becauseit's not like that was new
information that people wereworried about you trio, you
know?
Theodora (26:45):
That's very true.
Yes.
So I picked the place that I didbecause it also like Kat I'm
into all the woo-woo stuff.
Kat (26:55):
Oh yeah.
Have to be, that's why we'refriends.
We live in 2019, like hand me ahealing crystal fucking crystal.
This plane sucks.
Let's try a higher one.
Theodora (27:05):
Like seriously.
So I like, you know that theyconsidered more holistic
therapies.
I liked that they took us to thegym every day.
If I haven't previouslyestablished, I'm kind of
addicted to working out.
We also had lots of journalinggroups.
(27:29):
So the like overall structurewas kind of similar to the
outpatient stuff that I hadmentioned.
We had five days of therapy, aweek, five hours, and so that
was mostly group therapy otherthan meeting with our individual
therapists.
Terrified.
Walking into all of that,especially group therapy.
I'm like, what the fuck is this?
Kat (27:51):
It's hard for me to wrap myself around that amount of
therapy as a person for whomlike therapy was once a week for
an hour.
And like even that, like feltlike so much work and so much
like thinking between sessionsabout like what I still needed
(28:16):
to work on.
Right.
Things like that.
Like I it's yeah, it's amazingthat you did this.
I can imagine why that wasextremely daunting.
Theodora (28:24):
Thank you.
The first, so the first day Iwrote in my journal, I don't
know if I can ever be happyagain.
I don't know if this is gonnawork the first day of groups.
I think as soon as we were doneI just crawled back into bed
because I was so overwhelmed andI still didn't see a path to
(28:46):
where or how that would trulyhelp me.
Yeah.
Um, and yeah, it is by far themost intense thing I have ever
done in my life.
There were some sessions that Iwas literally physically
uncomfortable.
There was one session with mytherapist that I wish there was
like a time lapse video of,because I'm sitting on this
(29:07):
Adirondack chair cause we wereout in San Diego in the sun and
I'm just like rubbing my handson the chair like the entire
time I'm squirming, I'm souncomfortable.
But my therapist was amazing andyou know, she would just keep
pulling and get this stuff outof me.
I'm like, where did this comefrom?
(29:28):
And then she would totallyvalidate it.
"Of course.
Of course.
I understand why you would feelthat way and let's figure out
how we move forward." Yeah.
So yeah, it was the best, ohmaybe not the best six weeks of
my life.
I don't know.
Kat (29:49):
So let's get this straight.
So the best days of your lifehave been checking into
inpatient mental health, like aninpatient mental health facility
and running a marathon with alot of hills four times.
Theodora (30:03):
I don't know what this says about my personality.
Kat (30:08):
I think it's really helpful to understand like exactly what
all that looks like and like howyou got to that point.
And I think no one fucking evertalks about it.
Right.
That's a really good point ever.
Like I've never, I can't, Ilistened to a million podcasts,
I listened to him, I've listenedto a million discussions about
mental health.
I've never really heard someonetalk about,"Here are the false
starts that I've had.
(30:30):
And then here's like when thingsgot real bad, and then here's
when I said, all right, I'mgoing to do nothing about this.
And I did it.
Thank you so much for sharingall of that.
Um, I really feel like we don't,we don't have candid
conversations about what likethis truly what you just walked
through is truly a mental healthjourney.
(30:52):
And I feel like we don't havethat conversation enough right
now.
Theodora (30:56):
We either see people like in the midst of it or you
see people who have like zerovisibility to like where they
are, what they're going through.
Right.
Or you see like the shiny happysuccess story, right.
Kat (31:07):
Exactly.
Like, Oh, I'm, here's my story.
I went to therapy and now I'mfixed.
Which by the way, not a realthing.
Right.
Like, it's basically, yeah, Iknow, like therapy just gives
you the tools to continue to fixyourself for the rest of your
life.
You know?
Theodora (31:20):
That's a great way to put.
(31:21):
Like probably at some point, or maybe you'll need to go back
into therapy.
So I'm not currently seeing atherapist, but I, it's not, it
would not be surprising to me ifat some point in my life I'm
back in a place where I needsome additional tools, um, that
I don't have quite yet.
So, um, yeah.
(31:41):
So I would love to kind oftransition into like what, what
creativity has kind of meant toyou or looked like for you along
the way.
Um, how you use like creativepractices and here this can mean
literally anything.
It can mean, obviously you're awriter, you've got your podcast.
(32:02):
Um, even things like, honestlyjust picking out like which
healing crystals or like I'mlooking at your bracelets, which
are amazing.
Theodora (32:09):
I'm wearing four different beaded bracelets right
now.
Kat (32:12):
Yeah.
And they're gorgeous.
Theodora (32:14):
Five.
Yeah.
Um, but things like that, that Ithink, I mean, that's a creative
practice.
Like figuring out like, oh, whatcombination of things do I need
to like get through the day?
So I guess I've, I've alwaysbeen a writer.
I was gonna say, I've alwaysconsidered myself a writer, but
that's actually kind of a lie.
(32:35):
Even though I have a journalismmajor and have been working in
creative and content stuff sinceI graduated.
Kat (32:43):
But isn't it interesting?
So you haven't, okay.
So from my, to my mind, you'vealways been a writer.
True.
You've always consideredyourself a writer, maybe not
true.
There's this idea that like, oh,I'm only a writer if they write
in the specific under thesespecific circumstances or I'm
getting paid for it, or otherpeople are reading my work or
(33:04):
whatever.
And like frankly, if you write,you're right.
It's just not true.
If you sit down and write,you're a writer.
Right?
Theodora (33:11):
So right after my mom died, so since I'd started this
blog, you know, basicallyeverything I had written up
until my mom died, I did writefor public consumption.
Yeah.
I had never really written formyself at all.
I was a journalism major and ablogger.
I was used to writing for otherpeople.
One of my friends at the timewho had lost both of her parents
(33:34):
was like, you know, you shouldreally start journaling.
I did that when I lost myparents and it was really
helpful.
I am so grateful that my friendsuggested it because losing your
mother, you have more emotionsthan you know what to do with
more emotion being flooded withmore emotions than I ever had in
(33:57):
my entire life.
Kat (33:58):
And new ones that are like, what?
I don't, I don't recognize this.
I don't know how to name this.
Yeah.
Theodora (34:05):
And you know, talking to friends, going to therapy,
still, none of that was enoughto get all of this out of my
head.
Yeah.
So I started journaling.
I started transitioning some ofmy writing more into personal
essays.
So it was really, at that time,kind of a combination of both
(34:26):
writing for myself and lettingmyself explore all of those
feelings and exploring all ofthose feelings kind of took my
professional writing in adifferent direction that I, you
know, I don't think I everwould've been able to find you
(34:46):
without doing that writing formyself and doing that.
That's so interesting.
I love that deep reflectionthat, you know, I don't think I
could have done if I were tryingto blog about that.
Kat (34:56):
Because you can't, there are certain things that you
would never put in a blog postbecause you, you, you're allowed
to have boundaries.
You're allowed to have thingsthat you keep inside that other
people don't get to know aboutand yet it's probably still very
valuable for you to know aboutthose things.
On a level, like a, a consciouslevel where it's not just like
(35:20):
I've got all this buried shitthat I've never examined.
Like at this, I suspect like andI, it's interesting that we're
having this conversation aboutjournaling today.
Cause as I mentioned, I'm goingto write a journal, a journaling
class, I think it's calledjournaling 101 tonight because I
have decided that I need tostart journaling.
Um, I did all through likejunior high and high school, but
(35:40):
I really have dropped thatpractice as an adult and I kind
of think like it would bebeneficial to me as well.
So, yeah.
Theodora (35:47):
No, I mean I, I kind of think of it as really just
like a life changing practice.
So I did a little bit ofresearch on, you know, kind of
why it's so helpful.
It's so cool.
Kat (35:57):
Yeah, I would love to hear about that.
Thank you for coming betterprepared than I did Theodora
shows up and I'm like, so I justwant you to know, uh, I didn't
do any prep work for this andI'm hoping we can just do our
usual conversational stuff.
Theodora (36:12):
I knew that I would babble, so I wanted to at least
know, yeah, things, but I meanjournaling it like helps you
access things that you wouldn'totherwise.
And creativity is so helpful formental health because it focuses
the mind and it's even beencompared to meditation.
Kat (36:33):
Wow.
Right.
Okay.
That's awesome.
And that is new information tome.
So I love that, but at the sametime though, it kind of makes
sense that it's meditativebecause at least for me with
writing, um, you get into aflow, you get into a flow and
like my brain will often justalmost go blank.
And then, I mean, unless I'mlike trying to solve a problem
(36:55):
in like a work of fiction, let'ssay, where I actually have to
like consciously think about it.
And yet even still sometimesgoing for a walk and freeing
myself of it will help.
Um, but I do find there's sortof this, there are these like
lulls in my, when I'm really inflow, like my brain goes blank
and then I just have like thereare words, they're coming from
somewhere, they're landing on apage.
(37:15):
Um, but it's not me.
It's not my brain, my overactivebrain that's like creating this.
Theodora (37:24):
Right.
And so actually fun facts.
Oh, awesome.
I love fun facts when you getinto that kind of flow.
So I mean, when you createthings, you're creating tangible
results and creating thosetangible results turns into your
brain releasing dopamine.
Kat (37:45):
Oh, right.
Wait, that makes total sense.
There's a science reason behindthis.
Theodora (37:51):
There's physical effects that it's having on your
brain.
It's literally being creativeliterally changes your brain.
Kat (37:57):
Oh my God.
That's amazing.
We have, by the way, I'mclipping that for like the
Internet.
Yeah.
Being creative literally changesyour brain.
Wow.
That's amazing.
Oh my God.
Thank you for validating myentire podcast.
Theodora (38:12):
Entire life.
Kat (38:13):
Yeah.
Seriously.
My entire life.
Thank you for validating myentire life, my entire
existence.
Um, wow.
That's so cool.
Um, yeah.
And so like, well, so that allmakes sense.
And then, I don't know, is thereanything, so as you, like, what
do you think has most changedabout like your creative work or
(38:34):
your creative over the pastcouple of years while you've
been dealing with all of thisstuff that you've been dealing
with?
Theodora (38:42):
Wow.
That's a good question.
You know, so actually last year,right after I got out of the
hospital, I went to a writingretreat.
Kat (38:52):
Yeah, that's right.
And our friend Lara went too,right?
Theodora (38:53):
Yeah.
Kat (38:54):
Right.
Cool.
Theodora (38:55):
Yes.
Um, and that was honestly kindof life changing.
Like if I look back at lastyear, that is probably the
highlight of my year.
Yeah.
And so I would say that thatreally changed things in, I
really felt like it was okay toconsider myself a writer or to
(39:19):
consider myself an artist.
That if I had things to put outin the world that they were
valuable, that my contributioncreatively and artistically
mattered just as much as theperson sitting next to me.
Kat (39:33):
Yeah.
Well my whole, one of the thingsI really like that I think has
been repeated ad nauseum is thisidea that like only you are the
like what your creative outputor whatever you're putting out
into the world, you areliterally the only person who
can do it exactly in your way.
Um, so I listened to thispodcast, it's called, so she's
(39:55):
@thealisonshow on Instagram, buther, her podcast is Awesome with
Alison.
I started listening to that afew times about it.
Love her.
I think she like amazing energy,but her like closing line is
always only you can be you andyou're already as awesome as you
need to be.
And Like I love that and it'sjust, it's such a good reminder.
Um, but yeah, this idea thatonly you can be you, cause I
(40:17):
think we're all so self criticaland like, right, these are like
the things that are wrong withme that everyone else has nailed
and everyone else's sayingperfectly all the time always.
I mean everyone has those thingsbut it almost doesn't matter
because whatever your mix ofstuff is, you are truly the only
(40:40):
person in the entire world whois going to be you.
And that's a good thing.
Theodora (40:44):
Damn.
So one of the other things thatwas really transformative, um,
all of these have taken, leavingNew York, by the way too, to
find.
Kat (40:57):
That actually might be a pattern that you should explore.
Maybe I don't want to be here.
Oh wait, you are exploring it.
Theodora (41:03):
I'm moving to California next week!
Kat (41:04):
But it's like not, I think this feels, this version of
moving to California.
It feels very different from thelike dipping my toe into leaving
California that you did before.
Theodora (41:16):
Yeah.
No, totally.
Um, but when, so when I was intreatment, they had us do art
therapy the first day.
I was like, oh good God.
Yeah.
Like my art is words.
I, I don't know about any ofthis visual shit.
Yeah.
And we started every art therapywith meditation.
Yup.
Um, sort of like kind of pre getyourself into a flow and you
(41:38):
know, we did stuff like paintingand drawing and of course I
start in, most of us startedwith, well, I'm not an artist.
And like if I can't do thisperfect, then it's not good.
I never considered myself aperfectionist because I was
like, well, my output isn'tperfect, so therefore I'm not a
perfectionist.
(41:58):
No, that's not true.
But over the course of all ofthis art therapy, which I mean,
there were some days that I waskicking and screaming inside,
not wanting to go.
Um, you know, because that kindof art brings a lot of feelings
out too, which I had neverreally considered it because I
just didn't consider myself anartist.
(42:19):
Right.
Um, you know, and being aprofessional writer, a lot of my
thinking is, okay, how can Imonetize this?
Yes.
How can I make more money on myblog?
How can I pitch this to x, Y, Zoutlet?
Kat (42:36):
It's like, it almost turns your life into like a content
farm or something.
Like you're just going toinstantly track content, ties
everything you're doing and thatcan't be healthy.
Theodora (42:50):
But it, it really gave me permission to do things and
suck at them and still getenjoyment out of them.
Which other than surfing,surfing is the thing that I've
loved.
But say it's my favorite thing.
I Suck at other than surfing, Idon't know if I've ever let
myself do that in my life.
Kat (43:09):
So that's me with running.
Like I'm allowed to be bad atthis, which I think has been a
very healthy thing for me toovercome.
My like achievement orientedperfectionist tendencies.
You're in New York tendencies.
Yeah, I don't know.
I didn't grow up here.
Like I clearly don't.
I like that you're lying and I'mported.
That shit.
True.
Theodora (43:27):
True.
Um, but yeah, I started, youknow, I started doing stuff like
drawing and being shitty at it.
Coloring and not always beingable to stay in the lines even
though I'm 36, I'm like, I loveit.
When I was a little kid, sidenote, they said that I lacked
motor skills.
I'm 36 and I think I still do.
(43:47):
I might attribute it to drinkingtoo much caffeine.
I'm gonna that's my story andI'm sticking to it.
Um, you know, I, I actually ammade one of the bracelets that
I'm wearing.
Um, you know, so giving myselfpermission to do that kind of
stuff.
Realizing through the course ofall the notes that I took
throughout this, Oh, I actuallyhave pretty good handwriting.
(44:08):
Play with lettering andrealizing that I could get into
all of that stuff and you couldfeel good and I didn't have to
walk into Michael's and be like,I want to do this, but I suck at
it.
Kat (44:32):
I mean, have you seen my, like my mind, like kind of meta
artwork that I did that says Iam not afraid to make bad art.
Yes.
Soif you look at it, it's right.
Yeah.
It's like right in my livingroom and I like, I feel like, I
love that as a reminder of like,I think and my other, my other
thing is like, bad art is betterthan no art.
It's way better.
Yeah.
Um, so I love this and I thinkalso there's like the thing
(44:54):
about calling yourself anartist, I think one thing, at
least a struggle for me hasbeen, oh, well I'm not a visual
artist so I can call myself anartist.
Yeah.
And I don't believe thatanymore, but I still think it's
like a little bit of a stumblingblock sometimes when I'm like,
like my friend Lauren is thisbrilliant visual artist.
(45:16):
She is a painter.
She's extremely gifted.
Um, and so, you know, sometimesI'll go to her studio and I'll
see the work that she's done orI'll go to a show that she's
done and I'm like, I'm not onthat level, therefore I don't
deserve this title.
Theodora (45:32):
And I never considered myself an artist because I've
only ever written nonfiction,either journalism or now, you
know, kind of creativenonfiction.
Yeah.
But yeah, it took me awhile toembrace that.
I'm air quotes artistic.
Kat (45:49):
Totally.
Well, I mean, the name of thispodcast is how to be creative.
Right.
And I do believe so.
Like I'm a big fan of, um,Creative Mornings events, which
I go to the ones in New York,but they have them in over 200
cities around the world now.
So check out the LA one.
Um, yeah, I'm going to, I, it'samazing.
But their creative manifestobegins and I'm going to butcher
(46:11):
it probably, but it begins with,we believe that everyone is
creative and like, I reallythink that, and it's, I don't
know, like I have conversationswith people sometimes where
they're like, oh, you're socreative, I'm not creative.
At all, and I've heard this frompeople that I think are, you
know, creative geniuses in theirown right.
Their creativity might not looklike mine.
They might not, you know, sitdown and like write a novel or
(46:34):
like write an essay about theirfeelings or whatever.
But I mean, you can be creativewithin the confines of like a
PowerPoint deck, you know, nowthat entirely possible, you're
telling, you're doing visualstorytelling.
And I don't think that way atall.
So to me that is like someartistic magic, right?
Theodora (46:53):
Yeah.
Being able to put together agood deck is a skillset.
Kat (46:58):
Yeah.
And then the people who designthose decks, I don't know,
artistry looks like a lot ofdifferent things.
And again, I think it's just,we've, we've grown up with this
cultural assumption that like,no, it looks like one way or
like one of three ways.
And like anything else outsideof that isn't art.
(47:20):
So I also wanted to talk about,um, sort of what creativity
looks like for you on a dailybasis.
Like, what is your sort of likecreative maintenance, what does
that look like?
Theodora (47:31):
That's a really good question.
So yeah, maintenance is a reallygood word for it because I mean
both my mental stability and mycreativity kind of get I guess
off center when I'm not doingthese things daily.
Kat (47:46):
Same.
Ooh yikes.
Cause I feel called out by thatcomment.
Theodora (47:52):
So for me, I mean I'm a freelancer so I can design my
day however I want to.
And I always say that that's whyI like freelancing yet until a
few months ago I was stilltrying to keep myself completely
on a nine to five schedule.
Like if I wasn't sitting at mydesk in my apartment by nine,
(48:15):
then I was slacking.
Yeah.
And.
Kat (48:19):
Wow.
Capitalism.
Theodora (48:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So for me it's been realizingthat if I don't do the daily
things I need to do, which forme before I can start working.
And again, I'm lucky that I havethe luxury because I freelance.
But you know, it's journaling,it's meditating, it's
(48:45):
exercising.
Um, sometimes, and it's gettingbetter now that the weather's
good in New York, but you know,it's taking a walk if I can and
just slowing down for a littlebit and like taking life in a
little bit rather than justrushing to the next thing.
(49:05):
This is the whole newrealization for me because it's
very new.
Kat (49:06):
Yeah.
Well, and we talked about this,we, we grabbed breakfast before
work last week and talked alittle bit about this, which I
think is like a natural topic ofconversation when you're like,
oh yeah, we both made space inour lives to do this before we
were starting our work day.
Right.
Um, but yeah, I think it's so,there's such a tendency to like
(49:30):
rush through everything in orderto like do the things that are
quote unquote important.
Um, which in my experience hasoften meant putting other
people's priorities first,right.
And ahead of my own.
And when I have gotten too muchinto that mindset of like, I
need to be doing this, I need tobe doing that versus, oh, let me
(49:51):
slow down and be present where Iam.
Like, do things that aremeaningful to me and that make
my life feel bigger and more, Idunno, complete maybe, for lack
of a better word.
Yeah.
So I love that.
Theodora (50:05):
I mean rushing is just not the lifestyle that I want
anymore, which is also why I'mleaving New York.
Yeah.
But, you know, for me, and youknow, since I'm a freelancer, a
lot of what I do is puttingmyself out there and pitching
and like with pretty highrejection rates.
Yeah.
You know, so it's really easy toget for me to get into the
(50:26):
mindset.
Like I suck.
Like no one's going to buy mywork.
So this is so cheesy actually tocheese and things.
Um, I, a lot of times before Istart working, I write
affirmations to myself.
Kat (50:43):
I love it.
No, that's supposed to be sogood for you.
I don't do it and I probablyshould.
Theodora (50:48):
Um, I don't do it as much as I should, but you know,
I write like, you're awesome oryou got this or you know,
whatever I'm feeling insecureabout.
Like I try and tell myself theopposite thing.
Um, and also, and we talkedabout this before we started
recording, but gratitude, youknow, something that like
literally every therapist thatsuggested to me and um, when I
(51:10):
started doing it, I realizedthey suggested it for a reason
that it does help.
Kat (51:15):
Right.
And like I think the most commonform of that is like a gratitude
journal.
But I think it can look like, Ithink what I heard, and this is
not any sort of likeprofessional literature, it's
more like me hearing like fivedifferent people on five
different podcasts say it.
Um, is that the, the importantthing is to have it have it as a
(51:36):
practice.
It has to be a practice becauseif it's not a regular routine
thing that is just built intoyour life, then you're not
reaping the benefits of it.
Theodora (51:46):
I've also been trying lately, like a few months ago, I
would never include myself or myskills or my abilities on it.
It was entirely outwardlyfocused.
Kat (51:58):
Oh my God, I love that.
Theodora (51:59):
Sometimes, well, often, coffee makes it on it.
I am grateful for coffee everyday, but sometimes it made me
really acknowledge my privilegeand realize I have a functioning
heater during the New York Citywinter.
I have a coat that keeps mewarm.
(52:24):
Um, I know I'm just going toswing it back to myself, to go
from being very outwardlyfocused, very inwardly focused.
But you know, lately I've beenwriting like my strength or my
courage to share my story.
You know, like I've been tryingto find something in myself that
I'm grateful for that I canacknowledge.
(52:46):
Which is new.
Kat (52:47):
Theodora.
I love that.
I love that so much and I don'tthink it's honestly, I don't
think it's um, like solipsisticor like too inward looking at
all.
Like, I think it's sort of thatvery, um, kind of overstated.
Yeah.
Sorry, go ahead.
Theodora (53:04):
It help me figure out like what my places in this
world and what I can bring toit.
Yeah.
So I was gonna say, agreed and Iwas gonna say, um, so there's
like that really kind ofhackneyed, overused phrase about
putting on your own oxygen maskbefore you, you know, you know
what I'm talking about?
Like I don't really everythingeveryone, I feel like I can't
(53:27):
read, listen to you or otherwiseconsume anything that doesn't
mention that.
I'm laughing because I'm notsure if you remember this, but
when you were on my podcast, Itried to make that analogy and I
called it a gas mask.
Kat (53:43):
[ Laughter] Yeah.
But yeah, so, but like that, butthat idea, and the reason why
it's repeated so often isbecause it's true.
Um, you, in order for you to goout in the world and kind of
provide what you bring to thetable, you need to be caring for
yourself.
(54:04):
You need to be aware of whatyour strengths are so that as
you say, you can share them withothers.
Um, and it's like, it's not, Idon't, I don't know how to say
this, but like it's, it's goodto like yourself.
It's not self-serving.
It's not like honestly ifanything, people who don't like
themselves, it manifests asnarcissism.
(54:26):
It manifests as,
Theodora (54:28):
I mean more trite sayings, but hurt people hurt
people.
Kat (54:31):
Yes.
So true.
And like, it's ego bullshit thatlike you have to spew outward
outwardly.
It's projecting shit about thatyou don't like about yourself,
onto the people closest to you.
It's stuff like that and like,um, you know, I sometimes if I'm
trying to have compassion forsomeone who is, um, really toxic
(54:56):
or borderline abusive, um, I tryto remember like, oh, this is
just this person who hasn'tdealt with childhood trauma.
Um, I'm not, uh, not at theplace I'd like to be with, like
that type of generosity.
Theodora (55:10):
You're human.
Kat (55:12):
But it's, I mean, I think it's probably true.
Like, why would you, why wouldyou put that out into the world
unless there was something goingon right in you that you haven't
quite grappled with yet?
So I don't know.
I really appreciate that and I,I honestly, it's a reminder that
I needed.
So thank you.
Theodora (55:27):
You're welcome.
Kat (55:29):
So, um, as we begin to wrap up Theodora thank you so much
for joining me today.
I feel like our conversationsare always like, I always walk
away from them with like abetter sense of kind of where
I'm at, which is interestingcause like we just talked about
like a lot of like, you know,your mental health journey.
But I think because we have somuch in common, like it like
(55:52):
kind of brings things up for methat I'm like, oh I hadn't
thought about it that way.
So thank you so much.
I feel like I'm benefitingsecondhand from like your
inpatient therapy.
Theodora (56:01):
A lot of people in my life have actually said that.
Kat (56:04):
it's so true.
Well and that's, that's actuallya perfect example of what we
were just talking about.
When you take care of yourself,make it, it branches out and it
goes outwards.
So thank you for taking care ofyourself and also thank you for
joining me today.
Theodora (56:17):
This was a lot of fun.
Thank you so much for having me.
Outro (56:25):
So that's this week's episode of how to be creative.
As always, you can find shownotes, including a complete
episode transcript and links toeverything discussed at
howtobecreative.org.
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