October 20, 2019 • 41 mins
Today I'm chatting with illustrator Shama Hussain about inspiration, her creative process, and discovering new creative pursuits as an adult.
Shama Hussain is a social media strategist and artist living in Manhattan. She currently works at IBM and has previously worked on social media for NBC, UN Women, New York Magazine, Keeping Up with the Kardashians, and the Obama White House. Outside of her day job, she is a self-taught illustrator and likes to create art that shares a story and a message. Shama is a native New Yorker and has lived around the world.
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Intro (00:04):
You're listening to How to be Creative, a podcast about
what it means to be creativeacross different disciplines,
industries, life circumstances,and career structures.
You'll learn tips for fittingcreativity into your daily life
and hear from a bunch ofdifferent people about how being
creative has helped them reachgoals, open doors, and live a
more rewarding, or at least moreinteresting, life.
(00:25):
I'm your host, Kat O'Leary, andI'm excited to introduce you to
some of my favorite creatives,as well as to the tools that
helped me get my most crucialwork done.
Kat (00:37):
Hi and welcome to How to be Creative.
So today I'm going to be talkingwith artist Shama Hussain about
her Sketched by Shama projectand some other things about her
creative process and motivation.
Shama, thank you so much forjoining me today.
Shama (00:55):
Thank you for having me.
I' so excited to be here in yournew podcast studio.
[inaudible]
Kat (01:02):
So that is true.
So today's pretty exciting forme because so far I've recorded
a handful of episodes and all ofthose have happened in my
apartment, whereas today Shamaand I are actually coming to you
from the podcast studio at thewing in Dumbo and is my first
time here and I'm reallyenjoying it.
Um, and it makes me feeldefinitely more like a
(01:22):
professional versus someonewho's just like hanging out in
her PJ's talking into amicrophone.
Shama (01:27):
It's an amazing setup.
Kat (01:28):
Yeah, it's really cool.
Um, so again, thanks so much forjoining me today and I wanted to
start talking by talking alittle bit about, um, your
Instagram, which is at@sketchedbyshama and I'll
obviously throw that in the shownotes as usual.
Um, and I wanted to talk aboutkind of where the idea came
from, how long you've beensketching, and um, also talk a
(01:52):
little bit about a recentproject you did, um, where you
had people commissioned sketcheswith the money going to relief
for Yemen.
Yep.
Shama (02:02):
So starting from the beginning, um, I actually have
not been sketching that long.
Interesting.
Yeah.
I only started sketching lastyear.
Kat (02:17):
So I totally like self-taught?
That's incredible.
Because as somebody who has novisual, artistic talent, I'm
really in awe of that.
Shama (02:21):
Oh, thank you.
Well, so I've always liked todoodle.
Um, so like from when I was akid, I'd always be like, you
know, scribbling and drawinglike random pictures and my
notebook.
But last year I had this momentwhere I was like, I want to stop
consuming stuff and startcreating.
And I'm like, how can I do that?
(02:42):
How can I just stop like readingand watching TV and listening to
music and just like putsomething else out into the
universe.
So I'm like, what am I good at?
And I'm like, okay, why don't Itry drawing?
So I ordered a sketchbook off ofAmazon.
I had a picture in my phone thatI looked at and I'm like, I'm
going to try sketching this.
And I loved it.
(03:04):
Like I loved doing it.
And so I, I kept doing that fora while.
I kept just looking at picturesin my phone and sketching them
and then I would send them tothe people.
I would sketch it like I wasmaking the sketches up and
they'd be like, these areamazing.
So I'm like, all right, I cansketch people.
So then I'm like, what can Isketch besides people?
(03:27):
So that's when I'm like, Istarted thinking about sketching
feelings that I was having.
Um, so like last year I wasgoing through a lot of like,
relationship stuff.
So my sketches will reflect alot of like how I was feeling
when I was in thoserelationships.
And then I started adding wordsto my sketches.
(03:48):
Um, so they became like littlestories, like standalone
stories.
Kat (03:52):
I love that.
Oh my God.
That's so great.
Yeah.
Shama (03:54):
Yeah.
So that was pretty much how Igot started in this.
Now it's been like a little overa year that I've been sketching
and it's become like sotherapeutic for me.
It's such an outlet.
Um, and it's just like, I, Idiscovered something I love
doing.
Kat (04:13):
That's so great.
So it sounds like you actuallyuse sketching as a means of
processing emotions while you'reactually going through them,
which I think is so cool.
And interesting.
I don't know if you follow Mari.
Andrew?
Shama (04:26):
Yes.
I'm obsessed with her work.
Completely obsessed with herwork.
Kat (04:30):
I saw her, it's funny, I kind of came to her work kind of
late, so I saw her speak at aconference a few months ago.
It was actually the yellowconference, which was awesome.
I hope they come back to NewYork next year as well.
I saw her speak and I was justin awe of her and I recognized
her work.
Um, once I looked at it, now I'mlike completely obsessed and,
(04:53):
but during the interview, one ofthe things that she said was she
actually gets her inspirationfrom going through old journals.
So she always deals withfeelings that she's already
processed and put behind her.
So she won't draw anythingthat's related to something
she's going through right atthat moment.
And really, um, and so I lovehearing that your, your process
(05:16):
is kind of the opposite and Iwonder sort of what that means
for her, like what the purposeis behind some of her stuff.
If it's, if it's mostly dealingwith, at least with when it
comes to like romanticrelationships, let's say if
she's talking about a breakup,it's probably one that happened
three years ago that she justhappened to read the journal.
Shama (05:32):
Well, the way I see, I mean that's pretty awesome that
that's her process.
Cause like it, it gives her moreclarity into how she felt.
Kat (05:41):
That's, that's true.
Yeah.
Shama (05:43):
For me it's like my emotions are so raw at the
moment, so I'm like, this is myoutlet for expressing that.
Kat (05:50):
Right.
And you're probably going to be,you'll probably get the most
honest interpretation of whatyou're feeling when you haven't
already intellectualized it andpackaged it up neatly and like
found a purpose that it servesin your life.
Or maybe that's just me.
Shama (06:03):
No, I agree.
I'm also like, I realized likewhen I feel more, my sketches
come out better.
Kat (06:09):
Wow, that's awesome.
I love it.
Shama (06:19):
It's, this is like really sad to say, but it's like when
I'm more sad, the better mysketches.
Um, and I get comments frompeople saying like, I love your
sketch but I can tell you'rereally sad.
Um, so like, yeah, it'sdefinitely more like the whole,
I guess the whole torturedartists where like, I am really
putting all my emotions into myart.
Kat (06:37):
That's amazing.
I love that.
And it's interesting because Ithink the first sketch of yours
that I remember seeing, um, wasright after you'd gone through a
breakup.
And that's how I found out thatyou and your now ex-boyfriend
had broken up.
I think I sent you a message andit was like, I really hope this
doesn't mean what I think itmeans.
Shama (06:58):
And it meant exactly what you thought.
Kat (07:00):
Oh yeah.
And I don't think, I'm prettysure that was on your private
Instagram.
Shama (07:07):
So it was a sketch of, it was a two-part sketch.
It was, um, a girl and a guylaying together in bed.
And then the next one was justthe girl laying in bed by
herself.
And I had written, you can'tmake homes out of human beings,
which I did not come up withthat saying that's like from a
poem.
Yeah.
(07:27):
Um, but like I just remember Icouldn't, I kept remembering
that quote.
And so sometimes this is how mythought process works too.
I'll remember something that Iheard that really touched me and
then I need to sketch it.
Kat (07:41):
Yeah.
Oh, that makes a lot of sense tome.
Yeah.
I mean I, it's funny I do that,but I think, I think I usually
just turn them into likeInstagram caption.
That's my shallow version ofart.
Shama (07:55):
Um, I mean it's for sure.
Like I sometimes I'll, I'll likeread a poem or see a quote on
Instagram.
Um, cause we, we read so many,like I follow a lot of accounts
at least about like about likepositivity and like female
empowerment.
And sometimes I see somethingamazing and I'm like, wow, I
really want to create like anillustration to go with this.
(08:17):
So sometimes that's like wheremy inspiration comes from too.
Kat (08:20):
Very cool.
Yeah, I love that.
Um, yeah.
And so, um, so what drew you tocreate the Instagram account?
Like what, at what point insketching did you decide that
you wanted to share things withthe universe?
Shama (08:34):
You know, I just created it last month.
Um, so I had been posting likemy personal, my sketches on my
personal account on like just mystories, not even as posts cause
I'm like, you know, it'ssomething that's like a doodle I
made and I just want to likeshare it.
But then I get it startedgetting so much feedback from
people saying I would love tosee your work in one place.
(08:57):
You should create a separateaccount.
And I was like, ah, I don't knowhow I feel about that because my
sketches are so personal.
Kat (09:03):
I was going to say, your work is so personal.
That's a lot to have out there.
Shama (09:07):
It's like these are like my feelings to have it public.
It felt very like, I don't know,it made me feel a little
uncomfortable".
But I started doing it more andmore and I loved like hearing
people's thoughts on like,"Oh, Icould really relate to this" or
"This really reminded me of mylast breakup" and I would hear a
lot of that.
(09:27):
And it made me feel good.
It was like, I'm not alone inthis.
And my sketches are making otherpeople like, you know, they're
invoking emotions in otherpeople, which I love.
So, um, after, uh, like a littleover a year of sketching and I
was like, okay, fine, I'm goingto create a separate Instagram
and just see what kind ofresponses it gets.
(09:49):
And it felt very weird at firstcause like I had some strangers
following me and liking my postsand I was like, this is weird.
It's not my friend saying, Oh, Irelate to this.
This is just somebody likeliking my photo or commenting.
Kat (10:02):
Or empathizing with you as a friend or a family member or
whatever it is.
Yeah.
Shama (10:08):
So it felt like a little bit like baring my soul in
public.
Kat (10:11):
Um, it's like invasive, but like an invasion that you've
invited.
Does that make sense?
Shama (10:17):
That does make sense.
It's a lot like that.
But now, now I've kind of builtlike a following on this account
and um, I love, I actually doreally like sharing my work work
, um, and like getting feedbackfrom other artists.
So I have like a lot of spokenword artists following me.
(10:41):
Yeah.
They do like poetry and they'llcome and um, so it's, it's just
nice to like be part of anartist community.
Kat (10:50):
So cool.
I love that so much.
And also I feel like there'spotential for some kind of
collaboration too.
Shama (10:58):
Yeah.
I've actually, like, I've hadsome people reach out and say
like, you know, we should thinkabout working together and I
love opening the door to that.
I have, I don't have anythingjust yet because I'm just so new
to this.
Kat (11:10):
But, okay.
But literally you started this amonth ago and they're already
making these connections, whichI think is really incredible.
That's awesome.
And as a side note, I recentlyasked you to do some sketches of
our upcoming guests, includingyourself.
Is that weird?
Have you ever done a sketch ofyourself?
Shama (11:30):
I have.
And those are the ones thatalways come up the worst.
I like cannot draw myself.
I don't know what it is, butlike I can't look at my face and
get it correct, but I can drawother people.
So, we'll see what happens.
But I'm so excited about thisbecause one having projects is
(11:50):
so fun cause I'm not justdrawing for myself.
It gives me like accountability.
It gives me a challenge.
Um, so like it's like, it givesme a purpose for my work.
Yeah.
And I think that'll be reallygood.
Kat (12:02):
That's awesome.
Yeah.
And it's so funny cause mythought process was like, it
would be awesome if I could hiresomeone to do sketches of the
guests.
And I was like, it has to besomeone who, I mean most of my
guests will be women, I'massuming.
Um, and in particular, I waslike, it has to be someone who
(12:23):
will be able to capably drawwomen of color.
Um, and I like, I I know fromjust kind of almost
eavesdropping in differentcommunities online that like,
um, you know, white artistsdon't always get it right.
And so I'm sitting therethinking about this and I was
like, I feel like I know theexact person that I want to do
this for me.
(12:43):
And then I was like, duh.
I need to ask Shama.
I've been meaning to commissionher for something anyway, like,
why am I so stupid?
Shama (12:50):
I'm so excited you came to me, you know, speaking of
like sketching women of color, Iam like, I actively try to like
draw different kinds of people.
Kat (13:00):
Right.
And so when I had seen recently,I'm trying to remember who, um,
there was a particular quote andI that, that you had, um, Oh,
it's Nayyirah Waheed.
Shama (13:12):
Yes, yes.
She has, um, amazing poetry andyeah, but like, you know, she
writes her poetry for women ofcolor and I was like, the
illustration I draw with thishas to be someone of color
obviously, or even like, um, Iwant to draw people of like
different body types.
(13:33):
I don't want to always just drawlike the same standard
attractive women.
Um, so that's been somethingI've been thinking about.
Kat (13:41):
I love that.
That's great.
Yeah.
And so as soon as it occurred tome, I was like, duh, that's the
only person I couldn't have dothis.
Um, so yes, I'm really excitedabout that.
So then I guess it makes senseto talk next about your recent
project where you had peoplecommission you to do sketches
and donated the money to Yemenrelief.
Shama (14:00):
It was such a fun project.
So I just wrapped it up.
Um, basically earlier thissummer, um, I had been sketching
more and more and I got likesome random requests saying
like, Oh, can I commission youand like pay you to draw
something.
Um, and I had never sketched formoney before.
Um, and so I was a littlehesitant about it, but then I
(14:20):
thought, what if, like what if Iasked people to, what if I said
I could draw people and thenused that money for a good
cause?
And that way I don't feel badabout taking money from someone.
And so I like put it out there.
I was like, you know, what is,what's the cause that I'm really
passionate about?
And so, um, just on August 19th,it was world humanitarian days,
(14:44):
so I was thinking like thecrisis in Yemen, it's now like
the world's worst humanitariancrisis.
So the situation's really bad.
Um, and I thought, okay, likethis is like a small
contribution I can make to it.
Yeah.
So I posted on my personalaccount just saying like, Hey
guys, I want to like draw for acause, um, and I will draw
(15:07):
whatever you want.
So I get a lot of like randomrequests saying like,"Oh, draw
like my favorite like sportsteam, or draw like me at my
wedding." And so I was like,okay, I will draw whatever you
want.
Um, and then I, uh, I was like,it's, it's at a suggested
donation of$30.
I'll draw whatever you want andthen donate it all towards the,
(15:31):
um, IRC, which is theInternational Refugee Committee.
Kat (15:38):
I'll put that in the show notes.
Shama (15:40):
And so, um, and I was so surprised by how many people
have signed up to do it.
So like I ended up doing 14commissions in total.
Awesome.
Yeah.
So we raised$500 in total.
Um, and it was very fun justgetting all these different
requests.
(16:00):
So I had some really funchallenges.
Like one person was like,"Oh, Iwant a celebration of friendship
." So a very general topic.
One person said,"I want you todraw me and my son dancing at
his wedding." And then I had afriend who was like, I want you
to draw me how Game of Thronesshould have ended."
Kat (16:21):
That's so that's like, that's perfect for you, too.
What a fun project.
Shama (16:29):
Such a fun projects, and you can see the variety of
requests too.And it gave melike, you know, it gave me, it
like opened a new door to mysketchings so I loved it.
I like discovered so much and um, just like really homed in on
my skills and had to like forcemyself to be even more creative.
Cause I thought for every personwho requested a sketch, I want
(16:51):
that sketch to be very tailoredto them.
Right.
Um, so I don't want to justcreate like something random for
them.
I want it to be like, so, youknow, if a friend asks me for
something, I thought,"What do Ithink when I think about her,
what does she remind me of?
Um, like what has she gonethrough in her life?
And then I would draw that.
Kat (17:11):
I love that so much.
Shama (17:12):
Yeah.
So put in a lot of, um, timeinto creating something custom
for them.
Kat (17:18):
Very cool.
And then, um, so how many of thecommissioned pieces did you end
up sharing on your Instagram?
So I saw one from our mutualfriend Chris Saunders who is a
musician and you had done Ithink his favorite, his favorite
lyric from Bob Marley.
Shama (17:36):
So he sent me his favorite lyric to sketch.
It was a Bob Marley quote.
So I, and he, you know, he's allabout his music.
So of course his sketch had tobe music related.
Yeah, of course.
Um, I've posted a few of them,so definitely haven't gotten
around to posting of them on myInstagram.
Um, because so I also want myInstagram at sketch by Shauna to
(17:58):
be like more, um, more likeon-brand for what I create.
Um, so a lot of the sketcheswere very specific requests that
I don't think would be somethingI would always, I would consider
as part of like what I do.
So again, like I said, I want tocreate stories and feelings and
(18:19):
some of these were like, draw meat my like wedding.
Kat (18:22):
Right.
Which is not, yeah, that makessense.
And that was actually a questionI had about kind of where do
you, how do you find thatbalance between you and your
work and your kind of brand, forlack of a better term, versus
trying to deliver on that veryspecific request and make it
feel like it was meant for thatperson.
Shama (18:41):
Yeah.
Um, so that's, that's somethingI've been trying to figure out
myself.
I want my sketches to like, Iwant people to look at them and
be like, Oh, Shama created this.
Right?
Um, it's hard with commissionscause sometimes people have very
specific things in mind and I'mhappy to draw that for them.
Uh, but if I love when peoplegive me requests that aren't so
(19:02):
specific, they're like, Oh, justdraw me.
Like I had the friend who said,"Draw me a celebration of
friendship." And so I had likethe room to be creative and add
my own touch into it and add myown words.
Um, so like it's again, reallyit's trying to find a way to, to
(19:22):
tailor their, what they want tolike what I usually do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Makes total sense.
Yeah.
But it was really fun justcoming up with that.
I had one request from somebodywho she wanted a sketch for
somebody as a gift and shewanted to gift it to her friend
who's in an abusive marriage.
(19:43):
And she said,"Can you pleasecreate something really
uplifting for her andincorporate religion into it?"
And I was like, that is such ameaningful request.
So of course I thought a lotabout it.
Like I spent a lot of time justthinking, what can I create for
this person?
Um, and I, I, uh, ended updrawing her this girl praying
(20:07):
and it says,"God will give yousomething better than what's
been taken from you." Yeah.
I think it's one of the mostmeaningful sketches that so
much.
Kat (20:21):
Okay.
I saw that one.
I love that one so much.
And the other thing of justthinking about it from the
perspective of, um, you know, Ispent I guess five years as an
advocate for survivors of sexualassault and domestic violence.
And so where my brain went firstwas like also when you're good,
when you're producing somethinglike that to be given to someone
who's in an abusive situation,you also kind of have to walk
(20:42):
that line of like making surethat whatever it is isn't going
to like endanger them further.
And so that's a very, that's avery safe image for that person
to be quote unquote caught with.
Shama (20:53):
Yeah.
Her spouse.
Yeah.
I had to also, I had to reallythink about that sketch cause
I'm like, I don't want her tolook at it and feel sad or
triggered,
Kat (21:03):
judged or like that.
Like preachy or like here's asolution.
And it's like,
Shama (21:08):
So I I that's why I said it was one of the more
meaningful ones.
I really spent a lot of timecoming up with a concept for it.
Kat (21:17):
Right.
Um, yeah I'll link to that.
Um, there, there are a couple ofsketches that we've talked about
that I'll link to individuallyin the show notes in addition to
linking to the Instagramaccount.
Um, wow, that's amazing.
Cause I haven't seen that withno context for it.
I already thought it was likethis really meaningful, um,
piece of art and was it, youknow, that something that drew a
(21:37):
visceral reaction for me and,and also, you know, really lines
up with kind of how I thinkabout life now.
And yeah, there was this entireother dimension that no one who
was seeing your account couldactually see.
That's amazing.
I love that.
I feel like that's true of a lotof your sketches where like
we're seeing kind of, and alsoit's open to interpretation,
(21:57):
right?
Like everyone's gonna see it andget something out of it.
And it probably looks a littlebit different depending on whose
perspective it is.
Shama (22:04):
For sure.
And even like some of mysketches are, that's why I said
they're so personal.
It's like I could have been in areally bad place when I drew
that.
Um, and so you'll see some ofthe emotion, but you won't know
like a lot of this, this, a lotof what, what detail drew me to
like draw that or um, even justdrawing it for somebody else to,
(22:25):
yeah.
So that's, I think that's likethe beauty of art too.
So I, as long as it invokesemotion in somebody, I think
I'm, I'm getting, I'm doing whatI want with my art.
Kat (22:35):
Yeah.
That's fantastic.
And I also think it kind ofserves combining things that
you're doing for yourself andthings you're doing for others
in one place kind of serves aslike a protective layer for you
almost.
Because if I'm looking atsomething I don't necessarily
know, is this something Shamadrew, um, about a situation that
(22:55):
she's dealing with personally oris it something that someone
else asked her to draw?
So, um, you know, I think whenyou're, when you're putting
something out there that's sopersonal to you, um, as we
talked about earlier, it canfeel very, uh, vulnerable, but
maybe this like if not likesubtracts a layer of
vulnerability.
Vulnerability like allows you alittle bit of space.
Shama (23:22):
Yeah.
It'll, it gives me a little bitof like protection.
Cause I, you know, you don't,nobody ever wants to like share
everything that's going on inyour soul, um, for, so for sure
it does that.
Um, it just, it's been reallyfun, like drawing cause I've
just been drawing for myself, soit has been really fun to like
draw for other people too andtry to like incorporate their
(23:43):
lives into these drawings.
Kat (23:46):
I love that.
And I think, um, I think thisacross like a broad range of
mediums like, um, and not justnecessarily what we think of as
art, but I think empathy is sucha powerful tool for doing great
work.
And I think this is a perfectexample of that.
Yeah.
Shama (24:03):
Yeah.
I hope so.
Kat (24:05):
Yeah.
No, that's amazing.
I love that.
Shama (24:08):
Um, and it's, it's also like really fun to like, since I
do did this commissioningproject, I get people like
sending me pictures of how theyframed their sketches and put it
up in their homes that I'm like,that that like is so meaningful
to me.
I'm like, that's really amazing.
Love it.
You liked the sketch enough tolike hang it somewhere or frame
(24:29):
it somewhere or like frame itand gift it to somebody.
So like, that's just, it's beena really special project.
Kat (24:35):
I love it.
Yeah.
That's so great.
Shama (24:37):
It made me really happy.
Kat (24:39):
Yeah.
Um, and actually this is asidebar but that just occurred
to me.
So you and I have both been kindof dabbling in these alcohol ink
painting recently, which is socool.
And I feel like if you're a waybetter than, I know I talked
about it on every episode, justlike obsessed.
I'm like starting an alcohol inkcult.
So props to yang from tailormade shop.
(24:59):
I'll throw that in the shownotes cause she's the one who
taught both of us and I am nowlike I've had so many friends
reach out and be like, what isthis?
How do I purchase it?
I want to learn more about that.
Um, but I, it just occurred tome like that could be kind of
cool in terms of like using analcohol ink piece as a base
layer and then once it driesdoing like a sketch over that,
Shama (25:22):
Oh, I actually thought about it, but I am not good.
I'm not nowhere near as good asyou've become with these.
Kat (25:24):
I don't think it's a talent .
I think it's like I, it is likea bit random.
It's completely random.
I don't know if it'll turn outgood or not.
And honestly the best one I'vedone so far I think ended up
kind of looking like a skull.
Like they send out my Instagram.
I think that's the best one I'vedone.
Like I had someone reach out andtried to commission a piece.
(25:44):
Wow.
For me after seeing it I waslike, Oh no, I'm sorry it wasn't
that one.
It was a different one I haddone and the one actually the
one I, the one I did where, um,where someone reached out for a
commissioned piece was like thephoto paper I bought wasn't
working.
I found a piece of glossycardboard on my floor and used
that instead and just like threwsome stuff together accidentally
(26:05):
made rainbow colors and like itcame out beautiful.
It's like on my, over my desk atwork now.
But um, no, but I think, Oh myGod, no, you're totally talented
enough with those to to dosomething and I think it'd be
really cool.
Shama (26:17):
I would love to try that actually.
Now that you mention it, I thinkit'd be really fun cause I'm
always thinking about likewhat's the next step for the
sketching?
Right.
Um, and I'm thinking how can Iadd color to these sketches?
How can I like add moredimension to them?
So alcohol inks is definitelyone.
Another thing I really want todo is, um, I sketch on hand.
(26:41):
So just using a sketchbook and apen.
Yeah.
But I'd love to try itdigitally.
Cool.
And start illustrating.
Yeah.
And coloring them.
I think people would like to seemore of that.
So it like gives me a, it opensthe door to a lot of creative
pursuits.
Kat (26:57):
I love that.
And like one of the things I'vebeen thinking about with the
alcohol ink stuff, and it'sfunny, he's like, as I was
saying, like I have no visual,artistic ability.
Like this is the first thingwhere I create where I'm
actually creating things and Ithink they look good afterwards.
So that's a new, uh, feeling forme.
But I've been thinking aboutturning alcohol ink work into
(27:19):
like kind of more multimediastuff.
Like whether it's um, you know,like, uh, adding yarn or
embroidery floss or somethingand doing some kind of like
embroidery onto, um, an alcoholink piece that I've done.
I'm going to start exploringthat.
I haven't, I, it's something Iwant to strategize about a
little bit more.
But I love like mixed media workis like always so fascinating to
(27:43):
me.
Um, and I kind of want to, it'sfunny.
So I, I there's this, um,there's this comic that I
discovered, um, a while back.
I totally going to not rememberwho made it, but I'll put it in
the show notes.
But it's about how it takes likeseven years to master something.
And so if you start this processwhen you are, um, I don't
(28:06):
remember how old, but basicallythere's this idea of like, you
can have like 11 lives withinyour one life.
And so I've been thinking a lotlately about like, well, within
however many seven year blocks Ihave left in my life, what are
the other identities or livesthat I want to have during that
time?
And so, um, one of them is likemixed media artist.
(28:28):
And so I'm trying to startthinking about like, well, what
does that look like for me?
And like another is, um, likeI've always, I wanted to go to
fashion school in high schooland I didn't obviously.
Um, and so like at some point Iwant to be like an avant garde
fashion designer for like sevenyears.
Um, so it's a lot about like howto blend all of these things
together.
Shama (28:47):
It's like you want to discover what's, what talents
you have in you.
Kat (28:52):
That you don't know about.
Shama (28:53):
Yeah.
Cause you really don't knowunless you've tried any of these
things.
Like I, uh, two years ago Iwasn't sketching, so, um, and
suddenly I'm doing it all thetime.
Um, and we've never triedalcohol inks until this summer.
Kat (29:09):
And now we're obsessed.
Shama (29:09):
So yes.
It's like, like try all of thethings.
Yeah.
And then the ones that you loveand like you're saying, mix them
to create something really,truly unique just to you.
I love it.
Kat (29:22):
Yeah, that's totally where I'm at.
And, and I think as adults, andI talk about this a little bit
on one of my solo episodes, butI think as adults it's very easy
to, uh, conform to old ideas wehave about ourselves or
identities that we have formedfor ourselves where you're just
thinking, well, I'm a person whodoes this, not a person who does
that.
I'm good at this.
(29:43):
I'm not good at that.
I like this.
I like that.
And I, I've really tried overthe past few years to just kind
of throw that out completely.
And, and um, you know, growth isa very big thing in my life and
part of that is not holding ontothings that are no longer
serving me.
And I try to incorporate thatmindset in, in things like art,
(30:04):
which is, you know, as I seen,like visual arts really new to
me, but I, yeah.
And it would be easy to kind ofhave like imposter syndrome and
think like, Oh, I'm not good atthis, or I don't do this.
I'm not a person who does this.
And instead I'm just kind oftrying to explore it and play
with it and see what happens.
Shama (30:18):
It's so important for creativity because I think our
minds are way too rigid and it'slike our minds are way too
organized.
We put ourselves in a box.
And say, you know, this is who Iam and this is what I do and I
don't do any of the otherthings.
But like, like you're saying,throw that box away, and just
(30:40):
try it.
Kat (30:41):
I love it.
Throw the box away.
Um, that's awesome.
Shama (30:44):
Yeah.
So, uh, that's, that's reallywhat the creative process is.
It's like nobody has to teachyou that you're good at
something.
You kind of just have to figureit out for yourself.
Kat (30:54):
For yourself.
Yeah.
And so I want us to talk alittle bit about what kind of,
what it looks like for you tocarve out time for sketching and
if that's even the right way toask it, because it might just be
more like you feel inspired andyou just drop things and do it.
Within reason.
Like we both have full timejobs, like not always do that.
Shama (31:13):
Yeah.
Um, I no, I don't really need tolike force myself to carve out
time cause it's really likewhenever I'm feeling something
and I have this idea that I needto sketch this feeling into a
drawing, um, that's when that'swhen the sketch will come out
good.
And I can't like wait to get tomy sketchbook.
Kat (31:33):
Yup.
So that's kind of writing to, Icompletely understand that.
Shama (31:37):
So even just like last week I had this, I was like, I
was somewhere surrounded bypeople and I'm like, even
surrounded by people I feel solike alone in this situation.
And I'm like, I want to sketchthis.
So I went home and I likesketched a girl at a party and I
(31:58):
remembered this Drake lyricwhere he was like, um, I never
actually am alone.
I just always feel alone.
Kat (32:06):
Like emo, Drake lyrics.
Shama (32:12):
So I used it for a sketch, but again, like when I
have moments like that and I'mlike, I need to sketch this, but
sometimes I won't, you know,I'll go like a couple of weeks
and I don't feel like inspiredto draw anything.
So it's really like waiting forthat inspiration to come.
But that's why I like commissionsketches also helps because
people are giving me,
Kat (32:29):
Yeah, it's like forced inspiration, slmost.
Yes, that's exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then I think we kind ofalready touched upon like the
motivation.
It sounds like when you, whenyou get the idea or the
inspiration, like you have to doit.
So it seems like motivationisn't really an issue for you.
But I do think it's probably anissue for some people listening.
So I don't know if you have any,any tips?
Shama (32:52):
Um, well, I've had a really tough year, so I've had a
lot of motivation this year.
But I think when, wheneveryou're like, whenever you're in
a situation where you're feelingan emotion more strongly, ask
yourself, how can I translatethis into whatever creative
field I'm in.
Yeah.
Kat (33:12):
Versus like numbing out with Netflix, which I think is
very common.
It's like, I don't want to feelthis way, so I'm just gonna like
trying to shut it, shut it off.
Shama (33:20):
Exactly.
Instead of avoiding thatfeeling, ask yourself, how can I
use that feeling to like, um, bemore creative.
Kat (33:29):
I love that.
That's great.
Um, so another thing I wanted totalk about is kind of what your
process has been for growingyour, um, audience on Instagram.
Shama (33:43):
Um, I'm so new, so I just started my Instagram account
last month, so I'm still like,I'm still figuring it out, but I
did find that one starting it,it's like, um, your friends and
family who have liked your workwill probably want to follow you
wherever you're putting thatwork.
So I've had people who have beenreally like great about that.
(34:06):
Um, and then it's also likefinding people who do similar
things to what you do.
So like I went out and followeda lot of artists whose work I
like and a lot of like, youknow, people who are putting out
poetry and quotes, um, similarthings to that and you'll find
that they start reciprocatingbecause they're doing something
(34:27):
similar.
So they'll probably, you know,be interested in seeing what
you're putting out too.
So that's my recommendation forbuilding your audience.
It's like, look to see who elseis in that space and then, um,
support, support them so, andthey'll support you.
Kat (34:45):
Yeah, that makes total sense.
And it's interesting, like, sowe met at work, um, working in
social media.
And so I'm wondering like howmuch of that background, and you
have like a really, you havedefinitely a deeper social
background than I do.
You've worked for some prettybig brands and I'm wondering
like how much that experiencecomes into this or if it's just
(35:07):
a completely separate thing.
Shama (35:09):
It's, it plays a little bit into like promoting your
work.
Right?
So like, I guess now I, that Istarted on Instagram, it is
like, okay, thinking about like,okay, what's my brand?
Um, which is such a funny thingto say for something.
Kat (35:24):
I'm, I'm in the same process.
Like I'm like, how do I make abrand?
That's basically me.
Yeah.
But that,
Shama (35:30):
Exactly.
It's like, that's where like myPR and social background come
into.
Like, it absolutely does play arole.
You know, I, I've noticed whenworking with a lot of brands
first on social, they, they all,they always have to have a feel
of this came from that onebrand.
So like if I'm doing somethingfor, um, a media outlet, it has
(35:54):
to look like it came from thatmedia outlet.
Like what does, whatdifferentiates them?
Um, why couldn't it be any otheroutlet that put out that one
thing.
So that's why it's like whenyou're thinking about, um, when
I'm thinking about my art, it'slike I want it to look like it
came from me.
So that was, that's where likethe branding came in.
I was like, what should, like Idon't what, what kind of
(36:16):
branding should I add to mysketches?
And that's when I thought oflike Sketched by Shama.
And so now I've started addingthat to all my sketches so that
I have like my logo
Kat (36:27):
And when the internet steals it and like, like someone
can say can look at it and see,Oh this is who it was stolen
from.
Let me go check that person out.
Shama (36:36):
Cause how many times do you come across something
amazing on it, on the internetand you're like, I don't know
which artists created this.
Kat (36:41):
It makes me really mad.
Especially when I see somethingand I'm like, I know who created
that and it's gross that you'restealing it and passing it off
as your own.
And that happens so much latelyand it's, I don't know, like how
do you not feel gross aboutthat?
Shama (36:53):
Like that was one of the things that when I started my
Instagram we kinda, I saw likepeople posting it and I, I
thought like it's great thatthey're posting my work.
It means they liked it.
They did give credit, but Istill felt protective of it.
So you have to like learn to becomfortable with just realizing
that that's what the internetis.
(37:14):
That's the blessing and thecurse.
Your work will reach so manymore people, but you're going to
have to give up a little bit ofthat, um, ownership of it.
Yeah, no, that makes a lot ofsense.
Kat (37:26):
Um, so we talked a little bit about kind of what you're
thinking in, in terms ofpotentially adding color to your
sketches or exploring kind ofmultimedia, um, opportunities.
Um, is there anything else youkind of have in the pipeline
that you wanted to talk about?
Shama (37:42):
Um, well, I definitely want to buy an iPad and start
digital sketches now.
So that's my next step and I'mreally excited for it cause I,
it'll be something totally newfor me.
Um, so it'll actually end upbeing a totally different
product that I'm creating.
So we'll see how that goes.
Kat (38:01):
That's really cool.
And I like that because it thenmakes it, I feel like it makes
it so much easier for you tothen just share a digital copy,
turn it into like if you want todo, if you're, if you ended up
wanting to do work for a brand,let's say you could, that makes
it so much easier to like turninto various like social sizes
and stuff like that.
(38:22):
Um, it seems, and also probablymakes it easier to add color
within the sketches themselves.
Shama (38:28):
That's the hope.
It's like I'm at once I startdoing it all, see how it opens
more doors and um, like evenlets me try newer things.
So I'm like excited.
I love it.
Yeah.
Kat (38:42):
No, and I think that's kind of, I think that's kind of what
the heart of it, right?
Where you can have all theseideas of like, Oh, I think I'm
going to do this thing and thenI'm going to do this thing.
And then after that I'm going todo this thing.
And then a lot of the time thatdoesn't, it doesn't happen quite
how you expect.
But yeah, at least in my case, Ifind that a lot of the time the
things that I did not imaginedoing ended up being some of the
(39:04):
best things.
Shama (39:05):
Yeah, I absolutely agree.
You again, that's us puttingourselves in those boxes.
So I started sketching and I'mlike, I'm, you know, I think I'm
good at sketching.
So I was like, I must be good atpainting, and I got all these
paint supplies and I realizedlike I'm not going to paint it
at all.
I tried acrylics and it just, itdidn't look as like, you know,
(39:26):
this is nice, but clearly mytalent is in drawing and not
painting.
Kat (39:31):
Or maybe it's something like you can do some kind of
abstract sort of thing with theacrylics and then draw over them
when they're dried or something.
I don't know.
Shama (39:40):
Again, it's trying, trying every outlet open to you,
but dabbling in all of thosethings is what's fun and like
you're saying, coming to realizewhat you are good at, what you,
you know, what you're not sogreat at.
Yeah.
Kat (39:55):
And the, the other thing is we don't have to be good at
everything either.
And that's something that I'm,I've gotten more comfortable.
I then continued to try to getmore comfortable with as an
adult.
Shama (40:05):
Absolutely.
It's like, um, try all thethings.
You don't have to love all thethings.
Kat (40:11):
Yeah.
And you didn't have to be ableto monetize things.
That's so important.
Companies are great.
We should like, you should beable to have hobbies.
You don't need to be great atanything.
I mean, yeah.
Shama (40:22):
If it's bringing you joy, then it's already adding value
to life.
Kat (40:26):
Oh, that's great.
Shama (40:26):
Yeah.
Like, um, I don't need people topay me for my sketches.
I'm happy just doing it becauseyeah.
It's therapeutic.
Kat (40:34):
Yeah.
I really do think that likecreative work has intrinsic
value and it's very easy, Ithink, especially under
capitalism.
And I feel like I like talkingabout capitalism a lot
apparently, but, um, I thinkit's very easy to get into that
mindset of like, Oh, this has toserve X, Y, or Z purpose, or
it's not worth doing.
And I find that to be highlyuntrue.
Shama (40:54):
I think that's a really bad way of thinking because it
prohibits you from exploring howcreative you can be.
Yeah, yeah.
Sure.
Kat (41:02):
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much forjoining me.
I feel like this has been anamazing conversation and I'm
really excited to bring it toour listeners.
Um, Shama, thanks so much forjoining me.
Shama (41:11):
Thank you for having me.
I'm so excited to work togetheron our, on the sketches for your
podcasts.
Kat (41:19):
Agreed.
Outro (41:24):
so that's this week's episode of how to be creative.
As always, you can find shownotes, including a complete
episode transcript and links toeverything discussed at
howtobecreative.org
You're listening to How to be Creative, a podcast about
what it means to be creativeacross different disciplines,
industries, life circumstances,and career structures.
You'll learn tips for fittingcreativity into your daily life
and hear from a bunch ofdifferent people about how being
creative has helped them reachgoals, open doors, and live a
more rewarding, or at least moreinteresting, life.
(00:25):
I'm your host, Kat O'Leary, andI'm excited to introduce you to
some of my favorite creatives,as well as to the tools that
helped me get my most crucialwork done.
Kat (00:37):
Hi and welcome to How to be Creative.
So today I'm going to be talkingwith artist Shama Hussain about
her Sketched by Shama projectand some other things about her
creative process and motivation.
Shama, thank you so much forjoining me today.
Shama (00:55):
Thank you for having me.
I' so excited to be here in yournew podcast studio.
[inaudible]
Kat (01:02):
So that is true.
So today's pretty exciting forme because so far I've recorded
a handful of episodes and all ofthose have happened in my
apartment, whereas today Shamaand I are actually coming to you
from the podcast studio at thewing in Dumbo and is my first
time here and I'm reallyenjoying it.
Um, and it makes me feeldefinitely more like a
(01:22):
professional versus someonewho's just like hanging out in
her PJ's talking into amicrophone.
Shama (01:27):
It's an amazing setup.
Kat (01:28):
Yeah, it's really cool.
Um, so again, thanks so much forjoining me today and I wanted to
start talking by talking alittle bit about, um, your
Instagram, which is at@sketchedbyshama and I'll
obviously throw that in the shownotes as usual.
Um, and I wanted to talk aboutkind of where the idea came
from, how long you've beensketching, and um, also talk a
(01:52):
little bit about a recentproject you did, um, where you
had people commissioned sketcheswith the money going to relief
for Yemen.
Yep.
Shama (02:02):
So starting from the beginning, um, I actually have
not been sketching that long.
Interesting.
Yeah.
I only started sketching lastyear.
Kat (02:17):
So I totally like self-taught?
That's incredible.
Because as somebody who has novisual, artistic talent, I'm
really in awe of that.
Shama (02:21):
Oh, thank you.
Well, so I've always liked todoodle.
Um, so like from when I was akid, I'd always be like, you
know, scribbling and drawinglike random pictures and my
notebook.
But last year I had this momentwhere I was like, I want to stop
consuming stuff and startcreating.
And I'm like, how can I do that?
(02:42):
How can I just stop like readingand watching TV and listening to
music and just like putsomething else out into the
universe.
So I'm like, what am I good at?
And I'm like, okay, why don't Itry drawing?
So I ordered a sketchbook off ofAmazon.
I had a picture in my phone thatI looked at and I'm like, I'm
going to try sketching this.
And I loved it.
(03:04):
Like I loved doing it.
And so I, I kept doing that fora while.
I kept just looking at picturesin my phone and sketching them
and then I would send them tothe people.
I would sketch it like I wasmaking the sketches up and
they'd be like, these areamazing.
So I'm like, all right, I cansketch people.
So then I'm like, what can Isketch besides people?
(03:27):
So that's when I'm like, Istarted thinking about sketching
feelings that I was having.
Um, so like last year I wasgoing through a lot of like,
relationship stuff.
So my sketches will reflect alot of like how I was feeling
when I was in thoserelationships.
And then I started adding wordsto my sketches.
(03:48):
Um, so they became like littlestories, like standalone
stories.
Kat (03:52):
I love that.
Oh my God.
That's so great.
Yeah.
Shama (03:54):
Yeah.
So that was pretty much how Igot started in this.
Now it's been like a little overa year that I've been sketching
and it's become like sotherapeutic for me.
It's such an outlet.
Um, and it's just like, I, Idiscovered something I love
doing.
Kat (04:13):
That's so great.
So it sounds like you actuallyuse sketching as a means of
processing emotions while you'reactually going through them,
which I think is so cool.
And interesting.
I don't know if you follow Mari.
Andrew?
Shama (04:26):
Yes.
I'm obsessed with her work.
Completely obsessed with herwork.
Kat (04:30):
I saw her, it's funny, I kind of came to her work kind of
late, so I saw her speak at aconference a few months ago.
It was actually the yellowconference, which was awesome.
I hope they come back to NewYork next year as well.
I saw her speak and I was justin awe of her and I recognized
her work.
Um, once I looked at it, now I'mlike completely obsessed and,
(04:53):
but during the interview, one ofthe things that she said was she
actually gets her inspirationfrom going through old journals.
So she always deals withfeelings that she's already
processed and put behind her.
So she won't draw anythingthat's related to something
she's going through right atthat moment.
And really, um, and so I lovehearing that your, your process
(05:16):
is kind of the opposite and Iwonder sort of what that means
for her, like what the purposeis behind some of her stuff.
If it's, if it's mostly dealingwith, at least with when it
comes to like romanticrelationships, let's say if
she's talking about a breakup,it's probably one that happened
three years ago that she justhappened to read the journal.
Shama (05:32):
Well, the way I see, I mean that's pretty awesome that
that's her process.
Cause like it, it gives her moreclarity into how she felt.
Kat (05:41):
That's, that's true.
Yeah.
Shama (05:43):
For me it's like my emotions are so raw at the
moment, so I'm like, this is myoutlet for expressing that.
Kat (05:50):
Right.
And you're probably going to be,you'll probably get the most
honest interpretation of whatyou're feeling when you haven't
already intellectualized it andpackaged it up neatly and like
found a purpose that it servesin your life.
Or maybe that's just me.
Shama (06:03):
No, I agree.
I'm also like, I realized likewhen I feel more, my sketches
come out better.
Kat (06:09):
Wow, that's awesome.
I love it.
Shama (06:19):
It's, this is like really sad to say, but it's like when
I'm more sad, the better mysketches.
Um, and I get comments frompeople saying like, I love your
sketch but I can tell you'rereally sad.
Um, so like, yeah, it'sdefinitely more like the whole,
I guess the whole torturedartists where like, I am really
putting all my emotions into myart.
Kat (06:37):
That's amazing.
I love that.
And it's interesting because Ithink the first sketch of yours
that I remember seeing, um, wasright after you'd gone through a
breakup.
And that's how I found out thatyou and your now ex-boyfriend
had broken up.
I think I sent you a message andit was like, I really hope this
doesn't mean what I think itmeans.
Shama (06:58):
And it meant exactly what you thought.
Kat (07:00):
Oh yeah.
And I don't think, I'm prettysure that was on your private
Instagram.
Shama (07:07):
So it was a sketch of, it was a two-part sketch.
It was, um, a girl and a guylaying together in bed.
And then the next one was justthe girl laying in bed by
herself.
And I had written, you can'tmake homes out of human beings,
which I did not come up withthat saying that's like from a
poem.
Yeah.
(07:27):
Um, but like I just remember Icouldn't, I kept remembering
that quote.
And so sometimes this is how mythought process works too.
I'll remember something that Iheard that really touched me and
then I need to sketch it.
Kat (07:41):
Yeah.
Oh, that makes a lot of sense tome.
Yeah.
I mean I, it's funny I do that,but I think, I think I usually
just turn them into likeInstagram caption.
That's my shallow version ofart.
Shama (07:55):
Um, I mean it's for sure.
Like I sometimes I'll, I'll likeread a poem or see a quote on
Instagram.
Um, cause we, we read so many,like I follow a lot of accounts
at least about like about likepositivity and like female
empowerment.
And sometimes I see somethingamazing and I'm like, wow, I
really want to create like anillustration to go with this.
(08:17):
So sometimes that's like wheremy inspiration comes from too.
Kat (08:20):
Very cool.
Yeah, I love that.
Um, yeah.
And so, um, so what drew you tocreate the Instagram account?
Like what, at what point insketching did you decide that
you wanted to share things withthe universe?
Shama (08:34):
You know, I just created it last month.
Um, so I had been posting likemy personal, my sketches on my
personal account on like just mystories, not even as posts cause
I'm like, you know, it'ssomething that's like a doodle I
made and I just want to likeshare it.
But then I get it startedgetting so much feedback from
people saying I would love tosee your work in one place.
(08:57):
You should create a separateaccount.
And I was like, ah, I don't knowhow I feel about that because my
sketches are so personal.
Kat (09:03):
I was going to say, your work is so personal.
That's a lot to have out there.
Shama (09:07):
It's like these are like my feelings to have it public.
It felt very like, I don't know,it made me feel a little
uncomfortable".
But I started doing it more andmore and I loved like hearing
people's thoughts on like,"Oh, Icould really relate to this" or
"This really reminded me of mylast breakup" and I would hear a
lot of that.
(09:27):
And it made me feel good.
It was like, I'm not alone inthis.
And my sketches are making otherpeople like, you know, they're
invoking emotions in otherpeople, which I love.
So, um, after, uh, like a littleover a year of sketching and I
was like, okay, fine, I'm goingto create a separate Instagram
and just see what kind ofresponses it gets.
(09:49):
And it felt very weird at firstcause like I had some strangers
following me and liking my postsand I was like, this is weird.
It's not my friend saying, Oh, Irelate to this.
This is just somebody likeliking my photo or commenting.
Kat (10:02):
Or empathizing with you as a friend or a family member or
whatever it is.
Yeah.
Shama (10:08):
So it felt like a little bit like baring my soul in
public.
Kat (10:11):
Um, it's like invasive, but like an invasion that you've
invited.
Does that make sense?
Shama (10:17):
That does make sense.
It's a lot like that.
But now, now I've kind of builtlike a following on this account
and um, I love, I actually doreally like sharing my work work
, um, and like getting feedbackfrom other artists.
So I have like a lot of spokenword artists following me.
(10:41):
Yeah.
They do like poetry and they'llcome and um, so it's, it's just
nice to like be part of anartist community.
Kat (10:50):
So cool.
I love that so much.
And also I feel like there'spotential for some kind of
collaboration too.
Shama (10:58):
Yeah.
I've actually, like, I've hadsome people reach out and say
like, you know, we should thinkabout working together and I
love opening the door to that.
I have, I don't have anythingjust yet because I'm just so new
to this.
Kat (11:10):
But, okay.
But literally you started this amonth ago and they're already
making these connections, whichI think is really incredible.
That's awesome.
And as a side note, I recentlyasked you to do some sketches of
our upcoming guests, includingyourself.
Is that weird?
Have you ever done a sketch ofyourself?
Shama (11:30):
I have.
And those are the ones thatalways come up the worst.
I like cannot draw myself.
I don't know what it is, butlike I can't look at my face and
get it correct, but I can drawother people.
So, we'll see what happens.
But I'm so excited about thisbecause one having projects is
(11:50):
so fun cause I'm not justdrawing for myself.
It gives me like accountability.
It gives me a challenge.
Um, so like it's like, it givesme a purpose for my work.
Yeah.
And I think that'll be reallygood.
Kat (12:02):
That's awesome.
Yeah.
And it's so funny cause mythought process was like, it
would be awesome if I could hiresomeone to do sketches of the
guests.
And I was like, it has to besomeone who, I mean most of my
guests will be women, I'massuming.
Um, and in particular, I waslike, it has to be someone who
(12:23):
will be able to capably drawwomen of color.
Um, and I like, I I know fromjust kind of almost
eavesdropping in differentcommunities online that like,
um, you know, white artistsdon't always get it right.
And so I'm sitting therethinking about this and I was
like, I feel like I know theexact person that I want to do
this for me.
(12:43):
And then I was like, duh.
I need to ask Shama.
I've been meaning to commissionher for something anyway, like,
why am I so stupid?
Shama (12:50):
I'm so excited you came to me, you know, speaking of
like sketching women of color, Iam like, I actively try to like
draw different kinds of people.
Kat (13:00):
Right.
And so when I had seen recently,I'm trying to remember who, um,
there was a particular quote andI that, that you had, um, Oh,
it's Nayyirah Waheed.
Shama (13:12):
Yes, yes.
She has, um, amazing poetry andyeah, but like, you know, she
writes her poetry for women ofcolor and I was like, the
illustration I draw with thishas to be someone of color
obviously, or even like, um, Iwant to draw people of like
different body types.
(13:33):
I don't want to always just drawlike the same standard
attractive women.
Um, so that's been somethingI've been thinking about.
Kat (13:41):
I love that.
That's great.
Yeah.
And so as soon as it occurred tome, I was like, duh, that's the
only person I couldn't have dothis.
Um, so yes, I'm really excitedabout that.
So then I guess it makes senseto talk next about your recent
project where you had peoplecommission you to do sketches
and donated the money to Yemenrelief.
Shama (14:00):
It was such a fun project.
So I just wrapped it up.
Um, basically earlier thissummer, um, I had been sketching
more and more and I got likesome random requests saying
like, Oh, can I commission youand like pay you to draw
something.
Um, and I had never sketched formoney before.
Um, and so I was a littlehesitant about it, but then I
(14:20):
thought, what if, like what if Iasked people to, what if I said
I could draw people and thenused that money for a good
cause?
And that way I don't feel badabout taking money from someone.
And so I like put it out there.
I was like, you know, what is,what's the cause that I'm really
passionate about?
And so, um, just on August 19th,it was world humanitarian days,
(14:44):
so I was thinking like thecrisis in Yemen, it's now like
the world's worst humanitariancrisis.
So the situation's really bad.
Um, and I thought, okay, likethis is like a small
contribution I can make to it.
Yeah.
So I posted on my personalaccount just saying like, Hey
guys, I want to like draw for acause, um, and I will draw
(15:07):
whatever you want.
So I get a lot of like randomrequests saying like,"Oh, draw
like my favorite like sportsteam, or draw like me at my
wedding." And so I was like,okay, I will draw whatever you
want.
Um, and then I, uh, I was like,it's, it's at a suggested
donation of$30.
I'll draw whatever you want andthen donate it all towards the,
(15:31):
um, IRC, which is theInternational Refugee Committee.
Kat (15:38):
I'll put that in the show notes.
Shama (15:40):
And so, um, and I was so surprised by how many people
have signed up to do it.
So like I ended up doing 14commissions in total.
Awesome.
Yeah.
So we raised$500 in total.
Um, and it was very fun justgetting all these different
requests.
(16:00):
So I had some really funchallenges.
Like one person was like,"Oh, Iwant a celebration of friendship
." So a very general topic.
One person said,"I want you todraw me and my son dancing at
his wedding." And then I had afriend who was like, I want you
to draw me how Game of Thronesshould have ended."
Kat (16:21):
That's so that's like, that's perfect for you, too.
What a fun project.
Shama (16:29):
Such a fun projects, and you can see the variety of
requests too.And it gave melike, you know, it gave me, it
like opened a new door to mysketchings so I loved it.
I like discovered so much and um, just like really homed in on
my skills and had to like forcemyself to be even more creative.
Cause I thought for every personwho requested a sketch, I want
(16:51):
that sketch to be very tailoredto them.
Right.
Um, so I don't want to justcreate like something random for
them.
I want it to be like, so, youknow, if a friend asks me for
something, I thought,"What do Ithink when I think about her,
what does she remind me of?
Um, like what has she gonethrough in her life?
And then I would draw that.
Kat (17:11):
I love that so much.
Shama (17:12):
Yeah.
So put in a lot of, um, timeinto creating something custom
for them.
Kat (17:18):
Very cool.
And then, um, so how many of thecommissioned pieces did you end
up sharing on your Instagram?
So I saw one from our mutualfriend Chris Saunders who is a
musician and you had done Ithink his favorite, his favorite
lyric from Bob Marley.
Shama (17:36):
So he sent me his favorite lyric to sketch.
It was a Bob Marley quote.
So I, and he, you know, he's allabout his music.
So of course his sketch had tobe music related.
Yeah, of course.
Um, I've posted a few of them,so definitely haven't gotten
around to posting of them on myInstagram.
Um, because so I also want myInstagram at sketch by Shauna to
(17:58):
be like more, um, more likeon-brand for what I create.
Um, so a lot of the sketcheswere very specific requests that
I don't think would be somethingI would always, I would consider
as part of like what I do.
So again, like I said, I want tocreate stories and feelings and
(18:19):
some of these were like, draw meat my like wedding.
Kat (18:22):
Right.
Which is not, yeah, that makessense.
And that was actually a questionI had about kind of where do
you, how do you find thatbalance between you and your
work and your kind of brand, forlack of a better term, versus
trying to deliver on that veryspecific request and make it
feel like it was meant for thatperson.
Shama (18:41):
Yeah.
Um, so that's, that's somethingI've been trying to figure out
myself.
I want my sketches to like, Iwant people to look at them and
be like, Oh, Shama created this.
Right?
Um, it's hard with commissionscause sometimes people have very
specific things in mind and I'mhappy to draw that for them.
Uh, but if I love when peoplegive me requests that aren't so
(19:02):
specific, they're like, Oh, justdraw me.
Like I had the friend who said,"Draw me a celebration of
friendship." And so I had likethe room to be creative and add
my own touch into it and add myown words.
Um, so like it's again, reallyit's trying to find a way to, to
(19:22):
tailor their, what they want tolike what I usually do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Makes total sense.
Yeah.
But it was really fun justcoming up with that.
I had one request from somebodywho she wanted a sketch for
somebody as a gift and shewanted to gift it to her friend
who's in an abusive marriage.
(19:43):
And she said,"Can you pleasecreate something really
uplifting for her andincorporate religion into it?"
And I was like, that is such ameaningful request.
So of course I thought a lotabout it.
Like I spent a lot of time justthinking, what can I create for
this person?
Um, and I, I, uh, ended updrawing her this girl praying
(20:07):
and it says,"God will give yousomething better than what's
been taken from you." Yeah.
I think it's one of the mostmeaningful sketches that so
much.
Kat (20:21):
Okay.
I saw that one.
I love that one so much.
And the other thing of justthinking about it from the
perspective of, um, you know, Ispent I guess five years as an
advocate for survivors of sexualassault and domestic violence.
And so where my brain went firstwas like also when you're good,
when you're producing somethinglike that to be given to someone
who's in an abusive situation,you also kind of have to walk
(20:42):
that line of like making surethat whatever it is isn't going
to like endanger them further.
And so that's a very, that's avery safe image for that person
to be quote unquote caught with.
Shama (20:53):
Yeah.
Her spouse.
Yeah.
I had to also, I had to reallythink about that sketch cause
I'm like, I don't want her tolook at it and feel sad or
triggered,
Kat (21:03):
judged or like that.
Like preachy or like here's asolution.
And it's like,
Shama (21:08):
So I I that's why I said it was one of the more
meaningful ones.
I really spent a lot of timecoming up with a concept for it.
Kat (21:17):
Right.
Um, yeah I'll link to that.
Um, there, there are a couple ofsketches that we've talked about
that I'll link to individuallyin the show notes in addition to
linking to the Instagramaccount.
Um, wow, that's amazing.
Cause I haven't seen that withno context for it.
I already thought it was likethis really meaningful, um,
piece of art and was it, youknow, that something that drew a
(21:37):
visceral reaction for me and,and also, you know, really lines
up with kind of how I thinkabout life now.
And yeah, there was this entireother dimension that no one who
was seeing your account couldactually see.
That's amazing.
I love that.
I feel like that's true of a lotof your sketches where like
we're seeing kind of, and alsoit's open to interpretation,
(21:57):
right?
Like everyone's gonna see it andget something out of it.
And it probably looks a littlebit different depending on whose
perspective it is.
Shama (22:04):
For sure.
And even like some of mysketches are, that's why I said
they're so personal.
It's like I could have been in areally bad place when I drew
that.
Um, and so you'll see some ofthe emotion, but you won't know
like a lot of this, this, a lotof what, what detail drew me to
like draw that or um, even justdrawing it for somebody else to,
(22:25):
yeah.
So that's, I think that's likethe beauty of art too.
So I, as long as it invokesemotion in somebody, I think
I'm, I'm getting, I'm doing whatI want with my art.
Kat (22:35):
Yeah.
That's fantastic.
And I also think it kind ofserves combining things that
you're doing for yourself andthings you're doing for others
in one place kind of serves aslike a protective layer for you
almost.
Because if I'm looking atsomething I don't necessarily
know, is this something Shamadrew, um, about a situation that
(22:55):
she's dealing with personally oris it something that someone
else asked her to draw?
So, um, you know, I think whenyou're, when you're putting
something out there that's sopersonal to you, um, as we
talked about earlier, it canfeel very, uh, vulnerable, but
maybe this like if not likesubtracts a layer of
vulnerability.
Vulnerability like allows you alittle bit of space.
Shama (23:22):
Yeah.
It'll, it gives me a little bitof like protection.
Cause I, you know, you don't,nobody ever wants to like share
everything that's going on inyour soul, um, for, so for sure
it does that.
Um, it just, it's been reallyfun, like drawing cause I've
just been drawing for myself, soit has been really fun to like
draw for other people too andtry to like incorporate their
(23:43):
lives into these drawings.
Kat (23:46):
I love that.
And I think, um, I think thisacross like a broad range of
mediums like, um, and not justnecessarily what we think of as
art, but I think empathy is sucha powerful tool for doing great
work.
And I think this is a perfectexample of that.
Yeah.
Shama (24:03):
Yeah.
I hope so.
Kat (24:05):
Yeah.
No, that's amazing.
I love that.
Shama (24:08):
Um, and it's, it's also like really fun to like, since I
do did this commissioningproject, I get people like
sending me pictures of how theyframed their sketches and put it
up in their homes that I'm like,that that like is so meaningful
to me.
I'm like, that's really amazing.
Love it.
You liked the sketch enough tolike hang it somewhere or frame
(24:29):
it somewhere or like frame itand gift it to somebody.
So like, that's just, it's beena really special project.
Kat (24:35):
I love it.
Yeah.
That's so great.
Shama (24:37):
It made me really happy.
Kat (24:39):
Yeah.
Um, and actually this is asidebar but that just occurred
to me.
So you and I have both been kindof dabbling in these alcohol ink
painting recently, which is socool.
And I feel like if you're a waybetter than, I know I talked
about it on every episode, justlike obsessed.
I'm like starting an alcohol inkcult.
So props to yang from tailormade shop.
(24:59):
I'll throw that in the shownotes cause she's the one who
taught both of us and I am nowlike I've had so many friends
reach out and be like, what isthis?
How do I purchase it?
I want to learn more about that.
Um, but I, it just occurred tome like that could be kind of
cool in terms of like using analcohol ink piece as a base
layer and then once it driesdoing like a sketch over that,
Shama (25:22):
Oh, I actually thought about it, but I am not good.
I'm not nowhere near as good asyou've become with these.
Kat (25:24):
I don't think it's a talent .
I think it's like I, it is likea bit random.
It's completely random.
I don't know if it'll turn outgood or not.
And honestly the best one I'vedone so far I think ended up
kind of looking like a skull.
Like they send out my Instagram.
I think that's the best one I'vedone.
Like I had someone reach out andtried to commission a piece.
(25:44):
Wow.
For me after seeing it I waslike, Oh no, I'm sorry it wasn't
that one.
It was a different one I haddone and the one actually the
one I, the one I did where, um,where someone reached out for a
commissioned piece was like thephoto paper I bought wasn't
working.
I found a piece of glossycardboard on my floor and used
that instead and just like threwsome stuff together accidentally
(26:05):
made rainbow colors and like itcame out beautiful.
It's like on my, over my desk atwork now.
But um, no, but I think, Oh myGod, no, you're totally talented
enough with those to to dosomething and I think it'd be
really cool.
Shama (26:17):
I would love to try that actually.
Now that you mention it, I thinkit'd be really fun cause I'm
always thinking about likewhat's the next step for the
sketching?
Right.
Um, and I'm thinking how can Iadd color to these sketches?
How can I like add moredimension to them?
So alcohol inks is definitelyone.
Another thing I really want todo is, um, I sketch on hand.
(26:41):
So just using a sketchbook and apen.
Yeah.
But I'd love to try itdigitally.
Cool.
And start illustrating.
Yeah.
And coloring them.
I think people would like to seemore of that.
So it like gives me a, it opensthe door to a lot of creative
pursuits.
Kat (26:57):
I love that.
And like one of the things I'vebeen thinking about with the
alcohol ink stuff, and it'sfunny, he's like, as I was
saying, like I have no visual,artistic ability.
Like this is the first thingwhere I create where I'm
actually creating things and Ithink they look good afterwards.
So that's a new, uh, feeling forme.
But I've been thinking aboutturning alcohol ink work into
(27:19):
like kind of more multimediastuff.
Like whether it's um, you know,like, uh, adding yarn or
embroidery floss or somethingand doing some kind of like
embroidery onto, um, an alcoholink piece that I've done.
I'm going to start exploringthat.
I haven't, I, it's something Iwant to strategize about a
little bit more.
But I love like mixed media workis like always so fascinating to
(27:43):
me.
Um, and I kind of want to, it'sfunny.
So I, I there's this, um,there's this comic that I
discovered, um, a while back.
I totally going to not rememberwho made it, but I'll put it in
the show notes.
But it's about how it takes likeseven years to master something.
And so if you start this processwhen you are, um, I don't
(28:06):
remember how old, but basicallythere's this idea of like, you
can have like 11 lives withinyour one life.
And so I've been thinking a lotlately about like, well, within
however many seven year blocks Ihave left in my life, what are
the other identities or livesthat I want to have during that
time?
And so, um, one of them is likemixed media artist.
(28:28):
And so I'm trying to startthinking about like, well, what
does that look like for me?
And like another is, um, likeI've always, I wanted to go to
fashion school in high schooland I didn't obviously.
Um, and so like at some point Iwant to be like an avant garde
fashion designer for like sevenyears.
Um, so it's a lot about like howto blend all of these things
together.
Shama (28:47):
It's like you want to discover what's, what talents
you have in you.
Kat (28:52):
That you don't know about.
Shama (28:53):
Yeah.
Cause you really don't knowunless you've tried any of these
things.
Like I, uh, two years ago Iwasn't sketching, so, um, and
suddenly I'm doing it all thetime.
Um, and we've never triedalcohol inks until this summer.
Kat (29:09):
And now we're obsessed.
Shama (29:09):
So yes.
It's like, like try all of thethings.
Yeah.
And then the ones that you loveand like you're saying, mix them
to create something really,truly unique just to you.
I love it.
Kat (29:22):
Yeah, that's totally where I'm at.
And, and I think as adults, andI talk about this a little bit
on one of my solo episodes, butI think as adults it's very easy
to, uh, conform to old ideas wehave about ourselves or
identities that we have formedfor ourselves where you're just
thinking, well, I'm a person whodoes this, not a person who does
that.
I'm good at this.
(29:43):
I'm not good at that.
I like this.
I like that.
And I, I've really tried overthe past few years to just kind
of throw that out completely.
And, and um, you know, growth isa very big thing in my life and
part of that is not holding ontothings that are no longer
serving me.
And I try to incorporate thatmindset in, in things like art,
(30:04):
which is, you know, as I seen,like visual arts really new to
me, but I, yeah.
And it would be easy to kind ofhave like imposter syndrome and
think like, Oh, I'm not good atthis, or I don't do this.
I'm not a person who does this.
And instead I'm just kind oftrying to explore it and play
with it and see what happens.
Shama (30:18):
It's so important for creativity because I think our
minds are way too rigid and it'slike our minds are way too
organized.
We put ourselves in a box.
And say, you know, this is who Iam and this is what I do and I
don't do any of the otherthings.
But like, like you're saying,throw that box away, and just
(30:40):
try it.
Kat (30:41):
I love it.
Throw the box away.
Um, that's awesome.
Shama (30:44):
Yeah.
So, uh, that's, that's reallywhat the creative process is.
It's like nobody has to teachyou that you're good at
something.
You kind of just have to figureit out for yourself.
Kat (30:54):
For yourself.
Yeah.
And so I want us to talk alittle bit about what kind of,
what it looks like for you tocarve out time for sketching and
if that's even the right way toask it, because it might just be
more like you feel inspired andyou just drop things and do it.
Within reason.
Like we both have full timejobs, like not always do that.
Shama (31:13):
Yeah.
Um, I no, I don't really need tolike force myself to carve out
time cause it's really likewhenever I'm feeling something
and I have this idea that I needto sketch this feeling into a
drawing, um, that's when that'swhen the sketch will come out
good.
And I can't like wait to get tomy sketchbook.
Kat (31:33):
Yup.
So that's kind of writing to, Icompletely understand that.
Shama (31:37):
So even just like last week I had this, I was like, I
was somewhere surrounded bypeople and I'm like, even
surrounded by people I feel solike alone in this situation.
And I'm like, I want to sketchthis.
So I went home and I likesketched a girl at a party and I
(31:58):
remembered this Drake lyricwhere he was like, um, I never
actually am alone.
I just always feel alone.
Kat (32:06):
Like emo, Drake lyrics.
Shama (32:12):
So I used it for a sketch, but again, like when I
have moments like that and I'mlike, I need to sketch this, but
sometimes I won't, you know,I'll go like a couple of weeks
and I don't feel like inspiredto draw anything.
So it's really like waiting forthat inspiration to come.
But that's why I like commissionsketches also helps because
people are giving me,
Kat (32:29):
Yeah, it's like forced inspiration, slmost.
Yes, that's exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then I think we kind ofalready touched upon like the
motivation.
It sounds like when you, whenyou get the idea or the
inspiration, like you have to doit.
So it seems like motivationisn't really an issue for you.
But I do think it's probably anissue for some people listening.
So I don't know if you have any,any tips?
Shama (32:52):
Um, well, I've had a really tough year, so I've had a
lot of motivation this year.
But I think when, wheneveryou're like, whenever you're in
a situation where you're feelingan emotion more strongly, ask
yourself, how can I translatethis into whatever creative
field I'm in.
Yeah.
Kat (33:12):
Versus like numbing out with Netflix, which I think is
very common.
It's like, I don't want to feelthis way, so I'm just gonna like
trying to shut it, shut it off.
Shama (33:20):
Exactly.
Instead of avoiding thatfeeling, ask yourself, how can I
use that feeling to like, um, bemore creative.
Kat (33:29):
I love that.
That's great.
Um, so another thing I wanted totalk about is kind of what your
process has been for growingyour, um, audience on Instagram.
Shama (33:43):
Um, I'm so new, so I just started my Instagram account
last month, so I'm still like,I'm still figuring it out, but I
did find that one starting it,it's like, um, your friends and
family who have liked your workwill probably want to follow you
wherever you're putting thatwork.
So I've had people who have beenreally like great about that.
(34:06):
Um, and then it's also likefinding people who do similar
things to what you do.
So like I went out and followeda lot of artists whose work I
like and a lot of like, youknow, people who are putting out
poetry and quotes, um, similarthings to that and you'll find
that they start reciprocatingbecause they're doing something
(34:27):
similar.
So they'll probably, you know,be interested in seeing what
you're putting out too.
So that's my recommendation forbuilding your audience.
It's like, look to see who elseis in that space and then, um,
support, support them so, andthey'll support you.
Kat (34:45):
Yeah, that makes total sense.
And it's interesting, like, sowe met at work, um, working in
social media.
And so I'm wondering like howmuch of that background, and you
have like a really, you havedefinitely a deeper social
background than I do.
You've worked for some prettybig brands and I'm wondering
like how much that experiencecomes into this or if it's just
(35:07):
a completely separate thing.
Shama (35:09):
It's, it plays a little bit into like promoting your
work.
Right?
So like, I guess now I, that Istarted on Instagram, it is
like, okay, thinking about like,okay, what's my brand?
Um, which is such a funny thingto say for something.
Kat (35:24):
I'm, I'm in the same process.
Like I'm like, how do I make abrand?
That's basically me.
Yeah.
But that,
Shama (35:30):
Exactly.
It's like, that's where like myPR and social background come
into.
Like, it absolutely does play arole.
You know, I, I've noticed whenworking with a lot of brands
first on social, they, they all,they always have to have a feel
of this came from that onebrand.
So like if I'm doing somethingfor, um, a media outlet, it has
(35:54):
to look like it came from thatmedia outlet.
Like what does, whatdifferentiates them?
Um, why couldn't it be any otheroutlet that put out that one
thing.
So that's why it's like whenyou're thinking about, um, when
I'm thinking about my art, it'slike I want it to look like it
came from me.
So that was, that's where likethe branding came in.
I was like, what should, like Idon't what, what kind of
(36:16):
branding should I add to mysketches?
And that's when I thought oflike Sketched by Shama.
And so now I've started addingthat to all my sketches so that
I have like my logo
Kat (36:27):
And when the internet steals it and like, like someone
can say can look at it and see,Oh this is who it was stolen
from.
Let me go check that person out.
Shama (36:36):
Cause how many times do you come across something
amazing on it, on the internetand you're like, I don't know
which artists created this.
Kat (36:41):
It makes me really mad.
Especially when I see somethingand I'm like, I know who created
that and it's gross that you'restealing it and passing it off
as your own.
And that happens so much latelyand it's, I don't know, like how
do you not feel gross aboutthat?
Shama (36:53):
Like that was one of the things that when I started my
Instagram we kinda, I saw likepeople posting it and I, I
thought like it's great thatthey're posting my work.
It means they liked it.
They did give credit, but Istill felt protective of it.
So you have to like learn to becomfortable with just realizing
that that's what the internetis.
(37:14):
That's the blessing and thecurse.
Your work will reach so manymore people, but you're going to
have to give up a little bit ofthat, um, ownership of it.
Yeah, no, that makes a lot ofsense.
Kat (37:26):
Um, so we talked a little bit about kind of what you're
thinking in, in terms ofpotentially adding color to your
sketches or exploring kind ofmultimedia, um, opportunities.
Um, is there anything else youkind of have in the pipeline
that you wanted to talk about?
Shama (37:42):
Um, well, I definitely want to buy an iPad and start
digital sketches now.
So that's my next step and I'mreally excited for it cause I,
it'll be something totally newfor me.
Um, so it'll actually end upbeing a totally different
product that I'm creating.
So we'll see how that goes.
Kat (38:01):
That's really cool.
And I like that because it thenmakes it, I feel like it makes
it so much easier for you tothen just share a digital copy,
turn it into like if you want todo, if you're, if you ended up
wanting to do work for a brand,let's say you could, that makes
it so much easier to like turninto various like social sizes
and stuff like that.
(38:22):
Um, it seems, and also probablymakes it easier to add color
within the sketches themselves.
Shama (38:28):
That's the hope.
It's like I'm at once I startdoing it all, see how it opens
more doors and um, like evenlets me try newer things.
So I'm like excited.
I love it.
Yeah.
Kat (38:42):
No, and I think that's kind of, I think that's kind of what
the heart of it, right?
Where you can have all theseideas of like, Oh, I think I'm
going to do this thing and thenI'm going to do this thing.
And then after that I'm going todo this thing.
And then a lot of the time thatdoesn't, it doesn't happen quite
how you expect.
But yeah, at least in my case, Ifind that a lot of the time the
things that I did not imaginedoing ended up being some of the
(39:04):
best things.
Shama (39:05):
Yeah, I absolutely agree.
You again, that's us puttingourselves in those boxes.
So I started sketching and I'mlike, I'm, you know, I think I'm
good at sketching.
So I was like, I must be good atpainting, and I got all these
paint supplies and I realizedlike I'm not going to paint it
at all.
I tried acrylics and it just, itdidn't look as like, you know,
(39:26):
this is nice, but clearly mytalent is in drawing and not
painting.
Kat (39:31):
Or maybe it's something like you can do some kind of
abstract sort of thing with theacrylics and then draw over them
when they're dried or something.
I don't know.
Shama (39:40):
Again, it's trying, trying every outlet open to you,
but dabbling in all of thosethings is what's fun and like
you're saying, coming to realizewhat you are good at, what you,
you know, what you're not sogreat at.
Yeah.
Kat (39:55):
And the, the other thing is we don't have to be good at
everything either.
And that's something that I'm,I've gotten more comfortable.
I then continued to try to getmore comfortable with as an
adult.
Shama (40:05):
Absolutely.
It's like, um, try all thethings.
You don't have to love all thethings.
Kat (40:11):
Yeah.
And you didn't have to be ableto monetize things.
That's so important.
Companies are great.
We should like, you should beable to have hobbies.
You don't need to be great atanything.
I mean, yeah.
Shama (40:22):
If it's bringing you joy, then it's already adding value
to life.
Kat (40:26):
Oh, that's great.
Shama (40:26):
Yeah.
Like, um, I don't need people topay me for my sketches.
I'm happy just doing it becauseyeah.
It's therapeutic.
Kat (40:34):
Yeah.
I really do think that likecreative work has intrinsic
value and it's very easy, Ithink, especially under
capitalism.
And I feel like I like talkingabout capitalism a lot
apparently, but, um, I thinkit's very easy to get into that
mindset of like, Oh, this has toserve X, Y, or Z purpose, or
it's not worth doing.
And I find that to be highlyuntrue.
Shama (40:54):
I think that's a really bad way of thinking because it
prohibits you from exploring howcreative you can be.
Yeah, yeah.
Sure.
Kat (41:02):
Yeah.
Well, thank you so much forjoining me.
I feel like this has been anamazing conversation and I'm
really excited to bring it toour listeners.
Um, Shama, thanks so much forjoining me.
Shama (41:11):
Thank you for having me.
I'm so excited to work togetheron our, on the sketches for your
podcasts.
Kat (41:19):
Agreed.
Outro (41:24):
so that's this week's episode of how to be creative.
As always, you can find shownotes, including a complete
episode transcript and links toeverything discussed at
howtobecreative.org
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