January 13, 2020 • 44 mins
Today I'm chatting with Jennifer Wiese, founder of Workroom Social, about running a creative small business, authenticity, and the value of hobbies.
Discussed on this episode:
- Jen's upcoming Intro to Garment Sewing Intensive!
- Workroom Social website
- Workroom Social on YouTube
- Workroom Social on Instagram
- Workroom Social on Facebook
- Workroom Social on Twitter
- Workroom Social on Pinterest
- Claryville Jeans
- Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal: 11 Lives
- In Praise of Mediocrity
- Stanford d.school
- Kat's social presence: Instagram | Twitter
- HTBC Instagram
Find a full episode transcript at https://howtobecreative.org/?p=267
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:04):
You're listening to How to Be Creative, a podcast about
what it means to be creativeacross different disciplines,
industries, life circumstances,and career structures.
You'll learn tips for fittingcreativity into your daily life
and hear from a bunch ofdifferent people about how being
creative has helped them reachgoals, open doors, and live a
more rewarding--or at least moreinteresting--life.
(00:24):
I'm your host, Kat O'Leary, andI'm excited to introduce you to
some of my favorite creatives,as well as to the tools that
help me get my most crucial workdone.
Kat (00:40):
So today I'm here with Jennifer Wiese.
Hi Jen!
Jennifer (00:44):
Hi!
Kat (00:45):
Jen is the founder of Workroom Social, which is a
sewing studio based in Brooklyn,New York, where I also live.
And Jen's philosophy is that shebelieves that every woman can
lead a joyful, creative andconfident life, and she knows
that sewing your own clothes andwearing these you-made clothes
is a surefire way to find joy,creativity, and confidence every
(01:08):
day.
Jennifer is on a mission toempower women just like you to
sew clothes, the clothes theywant to wear.
I love that so much.
I think that's reallyincredible.
Jennifer (01:16):
Listen, I'm wearing jeans that I made today and I
love them.
Kat (01:20):
Those are the Claryville jeans.
Jennifer (01:22):
Yes they are.
Kat (01:24):
They're really, I feel like they're like so flattering and I
love the wash of themespecially.
Jennifer (01:29):
Thanks.
Kat (01:31):
Um, so if you're listening to this and you want to know
what they look like, you canactually go find Jen's
Instagram, which is just@workroomsocial.
Jennifer (01:37):
Yep,@workroomsocial.
Oh.
Or you can search#clarvillejeansand see all of the different
genes that other people havemade.
Kat (01:44):
Very cool.
And[inaudible] am I rememberingcorrectly, you did some
something over the summer whereyou did like a workshop where
everyone made their own.
Jennifer (01:51):
Yeah, so I teach classes here in Brooklyn and we
teach people, like you said, howto sew their own clothes.
We cater specifically to women,but of course men are welcome
too, and we have had men in ourjeans making intensives.
So that's what you're talkingabout.
We teach jeans-making intensivesfor people who want to, sew
(02:11):
their own jeans come to us andyou make them together with us.
And the jeans pattern that theyuse in that class is the
Claryville, too.
Kat (02:19):
Very powerful.
And that's like your originaldesign.
That's so awesome.
I love that.
So I wanted to get started, justtalk a little bit about, um,
kind of your background, how youended up starting this business.
Um, and I guess maybe thelogical part to start with is
how did you start sewing in thefirst place?
Jennifer (02:37):
I was in an independent study class in high
school and I had a friend whosemother sewed, and I don't
totally remember all of thedetails c ause that's h igh s
chool, a long time ago.
But the best thing that I canguess is that she had made me a
couple of things in thisindependent study class.
(02:57):
I needed a project.
So was like, h uh, maybe Ishould learn how to sew, just
because I h ad t hat influence.
My teacher at the time wasreally amazing.
She's one of those specialteachers that you'll remember
forever and ever.
And she, I d on't k now, foundme a sewing machine somehow.
And u m, I taught myself how tos ew through that class.
Kat (03:17):
That's so interesting.
And it's funny because we'vebeen friends for several years
now and I don't think I everasked you that or knew about
that before.
Um, sometimes when I'm talkingto someone for the podcast who I
already know, I'm askingquestions where I'm like, I knew
the answer to this, but I wanteveryone else to make it to you.
And this time like I was like,Oh no, I learned something.
Um, cause I guess in my head Iwas like, Oh well you must have
(03:40):
grown up like your mom must havesewn or your grandmother or
something.
It must've been t his thingthat's passed down.
S o I kind of love that.
It's, that's actually kind of asurprise.
U m, and so from there, like howdid you end up, c ause I know
early on in your career you werein PR, right?
And so like you, it'sinteresting because I think one
of the things that I l ike somuch about you and like your
(04:02):
work and one of the reasons whyI wanted to bring you on the
podcast is I think you have thisunique blend of the ability.
You have this amazing skillwhich is sewing, right?
And the ability to teach.
And then you're also just such astrong strategic communicator.
And I feel like that has to belike a combination of like your
PR background.
(04:22):
Um, and just it needs skill andthen also like doing sewing as
well, kind of sounds like fromhigh school on.
So I'm interested in hearingmore about what the evolution
looked like from like kind oflike a standard like
communications career to likemorphing into being an
entrepreneur and running yourown business and this particular
type of business.
Jennifer (04:42):
Yeah, I mean that sounds so like linear and
planned.
Yeah, it definitely was not likethat.
I, you know, sewing was sort of,I've always been a maker ever
since I was little.
And I think that one of thethings I've read somewhere is
like the thing that you are themost successful at or can be the
(05:03):
most successful at when you're agrown up is like the thing that
you really just naturallygravitated towards.
And not that I am, I mean I runa business so I'm not sewing all
the time.
Like I'm making lots of otherthings, um, whether it's, you
know, updates to my website or Ilike whatever, producing some
(05:24):
new class curriculum orwhatever, but I was always
making some and um, so I dunno,just throughout, I guess from
being a child to an adult, itwas always, I was always trying
to figure out how to makesomething new.
So in college I was reallyinterested in, uh, well I
(05:45):
studied economics, so it was allabout sort of like psychology
and more about like how to makepeople do things.
Um, and then I always loved[inaudible].
Kat (05:56):
Like behavioral economics?
Jennifer (05:57):
Yeah.
Economics was what I really,yeah, which I always thought of.
It's more of like a psychologythan a study of money, but it's
all about decision making.
So, um, and then I always lovedentertainment and so I was
always interested in makingvideos and like storytelling.
(06:22):
And so that was sort of a hobby.
In college.
I would produce these littlelike videos that I don't even
know how to explain it, likelittle music videos with friends
and all kinds of stuff likethat.
And then that led me to film.
So I worked in, um, just likeinterning on film sets and stuff
like that.
(06:42):
But it was, I don't know, thatwas not a career that I could
see myself doing mostly becauseI think I didn't have any role
models or like no real lifeexamples of that working for
people.
And so that was when I made theleap into an office job, which I
knew people who had office jobs.
(07:03):
So like, so then I went intofilm marketing and then I was
making marketing campaigns fordays that, you know, I was
working on.
Um, that eventually led to medeciding that, uh, I dunno, it
just wasn't the rightpersonality fit.
It's cause at the end of theday, movies in that regard are
(07:25):
all about money and makingmoney, which we all need to make
money, but it just didn't feelit wasn't the right fit for me.
So I left and, um, I don't know.
I didn't know what I was gonnado for a long time.
So then I made all kinds ofother random things.
I made logos, I did freelance,graphic design, I did, um,
(07:50):
photographies.
So I made images and I don'tknow, at some point I, um,
decided to make this littlebusiness.
And at first I thought it wasgoing to be a fabric store.
Um, but that was too much of afinancial investment.
You do produce now I producefabrics.
Yeah.
(08:10):
But back then, you know, Ithought I would, I don't know,
build up an inventory.
It'd be like a regular fabricstore, but that's so expensive,
and I funded the company all bymyself.
So like that just wasn'tfeasible.
So in the beginning I wasactually making the actual
fabrics, like screen printingthem by hand and that just was
(08:33):
not a, that's not viable.
You know, you can't feasiblysupport yourself on yeah, no
that did not work.
So I started teaching because Ilove teaching and I've always,
you know, going back to thatthing like what did you do as a
kid?
Also as a kid I was always likevolunteering to teach people.
(08:54):
They like run little trainings.
This completely trial.
Kat (08:58):
It makes so much sense.
Jennifer (08:59):
So I dunno.
And then I was like, huh, well Iwas teaching for other studios,
both screen printing and sewingand I was just like, I don't, I
don't control anything.
And I love controlling things.
So that was when I decided tostart my own teachings.
And so that's what we do now.
Kat (09:19):
So did you, when you started your studio, did you
rent a space or did you have it?
Jennifer (09:25):
When I started my studio, I actually started it in
my house.
So you would show up to my houseand probably be a little bit
confused.
Um, but I had a section on myhouse that was dedicated to the,
you know, quote studio area andit was enough space for six
(09:45):
students and we did all of ourclasses there.
It was great.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
Kat (09:49):
And then you've, I've, cause I've been to a couple of
different, I guess locations[inaudible] around and then you
also do a lot of offsite stuff.
Like you do a camp right everysummer.
So maybe we should talk aboutthat.
Cause actually I always, I amalways so envious of any kind of
camp experience.
And I don't know at some pointlike it's funny, I kind of have
like this very like longtermlife to-do list thing.
(10:14):
And at some point I'm like goingto take classes with you and I'm
going to learn how to sewbecause, and I've like talked
about this like I feel like on acouple of different episodes or
maybe I've just been having thisconversation with people in my
life lately, but there's this,um, this comic that I discovered
that talks about this idea oflike, Oh, it takes seven years
(10:35):
to master something.
So if you're like, whatever ageyou still have, you know,
potentially like 11 other livesthat you can live.
As I started thinking about therest of my life in terms of like
what are all the careers that Ikind of have like knocked off my
list because like I'm doing thisright now.
Um, and what's, what's sort ofthe timeline for like doing some
of those things later.
(10:55):
And one of them that I keepcoming back to is like, I really
want to be like an avant gardefashion designer and in order to
do that I want to like learnlike actually like how to sew
garments.
Cause like I can sit there andlike draw something but I don't
have any sense of like what goesinto like ensuring that it has
the structural integrity.
Jennifer (11:12):
Yes.
I like where your thinking isgoing, but so the audience at
home can't see this when you'rewearing a pretty killer
jumpsuit, I guess a jumpsuitthat's like, I don't know,
grass, green, beautifuljumpsuit.
And you could totally make this.
Kat (11:29):
You think so?
Jennifer (11:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
Kat (11:31):
This is like all I would wear if I could make this, I
would just make it in like 20different colors.
Jennifer (11:36):
You can, you can, yeah.
So that's, sorry, that's my kindof little sidebar there.
But um, but yeah, like so camp,okay, let's talk about camp.
Yeah.
So I produce an adult sleepawaycamp.
It is not during the summerbecause we do it at a real
summer camp.
So they need the space duringthe summer.
(11:58):
It's fall.
Yeah.
It's every October and it's herein New York state in the
Catskills.
And it's about a hundred womenwho get together once a year and
learn how to sew something overa long weekend and also do
summer, campy type activities.
That's sleep in the mostuncomfortable[inaudible] in the
(12:20):
world, but it doesn't matter.
Kat (12:23):
So who tends to sign up for that is that people who are very
experienced sewers?.
Jennifer (12:27):
We have a range.
Yeah.
It really ranges.
Sewer is I think thegrammatically correct, but
sewist is the, I feel like themodern version of the word that
people are using.
I think people don't like theway, sewer is spelled was this
sewer, they were so, you know,to each their own, call it
(12:50):
whatever you want the person whosews.
So it's a range of beginninglevel people to experienced
people.
We don't do any, just likeyou've never touched a sewing
machine.
But we do have classes thatrange in our classes are
(13:10):
designed for you to really divedeep into a subject, versus
conventions where you might havelike 10 classes and they're all
like an hour long, whatever.
Our class is designed where youhave one and you do it for 16
hours over the course of twodays.
Kat (13:28):
Yeah.
I love it.
Oh, that sounds so fun.
Jennifer (13:30):
And you can make the jeans.
Kat (13:31):
Yeah.
Very, very cool.
Um, so getting back to what Iwas saying earlier about how
like I've just been reallyimpressed with your strategic
communication ability andobviously like as a small
business owner, that's huge.
Um, so I wanted to talk a littlebit about kind of how you've
built out like using like I feellike you've, you've done a
(13:52):
really great job of likebuilding out a social media
strategy to support your brand.
And so I wanted to talk a littlebit about kind of like what
that's looked like.
Um, and, um, and like what, whatdoes marketing look like in
general for you?
Not to like make this like superbusinessy like you, like I'm
asking this question reallybadly, but like I want your
(14:13):
perspective.
Jennifer (14:14):
I guess like the big secret is that it is, I just
tried to be as honest aspossible and as real as
possible, which is why you'llnotice that I go through spurts
where like I don't post anythingbecause I actually don't really
(14:38):
have a plan, which is somethingthat my fellow colleagues have
challenged me on to actually sitdown and like make a real plan.
But you know, I, it's me andsometimes I get tired.
So, you know, I then I just, Idon't do that work, but I think
(15:00):
in just trying to be as honestas possible, I think that
resonates with people a lot.
And so, you know, for me sewingis about more than just the act
of sewing itself.
I think like hobbies are reallyimportant.
I think being a little bit morein it and yeah, I'll keep
(15:23):
talking, but I love that.
Yeah.
I think for a lot of people it'sabout having interests that you
know, give you more fulfillmentin life that build a community
of friends.
I always say like the hardestthing, one of the hardest things
to do as a grownup is to makenew friends, to make friends
(15:44):
with strangers.
And sewing allows us to do that.
So you know, as far as likestrategic communications goes,
it's just I'm a human and I feelall the same things that I think
a lot of people feel.
So where I'm comfortable I tryto share that I struggle a
(16:05):
little bit because I do think ifI shared more than I would grow
even bigger, faster.
But again, back to that like I'ma human just like everyone else
thing I'm, I do, I'm not totallycomfortable with, you know, just
being like fully, fullyvulnerable and out there on the
(16:27):
internet.
And if you listen to some of myother interviews with other
people, like I talk a lot abouthow like I actually don't really
like social media.
It makes me very uncomfortable.
I've been trying to,
Kat (16:41):
I feel like you're so good at it and you, and I think this
is probably like, this happens alot where like what, what people
who are observing your socialpresence see is very different
from how it feels to you on theother side of that.
Jennifer (16:53):
Yeah.
I'm like a good in-personperson.
I just don't feel which isdifferent.
Right.
I feel like nowadays people lovethe internet because it gives
you the flexibility to likepresent whatever it is you want
to portray.
I don't know.
I don't like that.
I'd rather just like meet youand you can actually see that
this is just how I[inaudible].
Kat (17:11):
Right.
Yeah, that's very true.
Um, yeah.
So, uh, just touching a littlebit on your comment about having
hobbies, this is something thatyou and I have discussed, um, in
the past, this idea.
So I think there's thispervasive idea and I think with
probably in part because ofsocial media and how we're all
so digitally connected all thetime, there's this sense that
(17:34):
like anything you're spendingyour time on has to be tied to
some like greater purpose and ina lot of cases some kind of like
moneymaking purpose.
And I really do see a lot ofvalue in hobbies and I, I get
the sense that they're devaluedin a way now that they, I feel
like they were more valued likeI don't know, several decades.
Jennifer (17:56):
Yeah.
Maybe by society, like you'resaying just in general, but I
kind of feel like who cares?
Like I mean I think that's thepoint or that's part of the
thing that you have to figureout what makes you happy and do
that thing and like who careswhat other people think about
it.
The times had a, the New Yorktimes had a good article a
(18:17):
couple of years ago.
I feel like it was called someof the case for being mediocre.
You sent it to me actually tryto dig that up and put it in the
shower.
It's talking about just like howpeople used to have hobbies.
And there, there is a lot ofsatisfaction that can be found
in just spending your time doingsomething just to do it just for
fun and you know.
Kat (18:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
And that's, it's something thatI, um, you know, really tried to
do for myself.
Um, not just do things wherelike, Oh, I know if I do this
I'm going to be the best at itor I'm going to be really good
at it.
But I try to do a lot of thingswhere I'm like, I'm mediocre at
best at this.
But there's still value in mysitting down.
And I think it's especially truefor things where there's like a
(18:59):
finished product associated withit.
Um, so for example, you had run,so you and I met through
volunteer work and a few yearsago you ran, um, a day long
training for us, for ourvolunteer group.
And, um, we made part of one ofour activities was that cause we
held it at your studio.
We made these little, um, likeenvelope clutches and I feel
(19:21):
like that was just such asatisfying thing.I still have
mine.
Like I saw it in my room theother day.
It was so funny.
I was like, Oh good, I get tosee Jennifer this week.
And it's great and it's great.
And like it was such a funproject and it's like we did all
of those, like we sent sat downand spent like, I don't know,
maybe a couple of hours on it,but it wasn't like, all right,
(19:43):
and now we're going to go intothe clutch and the envelope,
clutch producing business andwe're just going to sell these
and we're going to like, youknow, build a brand based on
them.
And it's like, no, we sat down,we did the work.
We enjoyed the process ofcreating something for the
purpose of creating it.
Um, and I tried to do more andmore of that when I can,
especially with like, I don'tthink of myself as a person with
(20:05):
like a lot of, um, kind ofvisual, artistic ability, but
I've tried to dabble more inlike just doing things.
Like I know I'm going to be badat that and that's, that's fine.
And I still enjoy the process oflike sitting down and sketching
or you know, doing a watercolorcoloring.
Jennifer (20:20):
Totally, but also like, I think the wonderful
thing is like, listen, you'renot going to be the next
Picasso, but the more you do it,the better you're going to get
at it.
And I move that is totallysatisfied.
Read completely.
Even if you're not going to bethe super bestest, bestest ever
in the whole world, you're goingto be better than you were a
month ago.
And I think that that is cool.
Kat (20:40):
Yeah.
And I think also kind ofviolates this idea that people
have of talent being innate.
Um, I like for me, somethingthat I really value is growth
and progress and improvement.
And, um, I don't know, at leastI feel like I was raised with
this idea of like, either you'regood at something or you're not,
or like you like this or you'renot, like, you don't like this.
(21:01):
And I've tried to be a lot less,uh, or, um, kind of embraced
less of a fixed mindset as I'vegrown as an adult.
Um, and so a lot of that for meis like this idea of like, maybe
I'm bad at this today, but if Ikeep doing it, then I will see
incremental growth on it and alland improvement.
Um, and I think sewing isprobably a really great example
(21:22):
of that.
Like, it's literally, it's likeno one is going to sit down at a
sewing machine.
It's not something you can havean innate skill in.
Right.
I don't think so.
Like you might have, like,
Jennifer (21:31):
Definitely certain people are better at just using
their hands than others, youknow?
But yeah, no, it is somethingyou have to learn how to do.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah.
Um, and so I feel like I'mjumping around a lot.
Um, but one of the things that Iwant to talk about, so we were
talking a little bit aboutsocial media.
I wanted to talk about your#sewinginreallife campaign,
which as a non-sewist um, youknow, I've watched it, just from
the perspective of someone whois interested in your business,
(22:00):
who's a friend of yours, um, andI've really like, uh, and, and
I'd like to hear like how youdescribe it, but my impression
of it is like, it's aboutshowing kind of the reality of
what your relationship withsewing looks like.
So I think on Instagramespecially, there's a tendency
(22:21):
to like show only, and I'm fullycapable, fully guilty of this.
And like, it's actually kind oflike, I like to have a more
polished feed I guess.
But I think also like that's notthe reality of the situation.
And it's, um, it's kind of likepeople create these polished
feeds that are supposed to bevery aspirational, but how can
(22:43):
something be aspirational thatisn't based in reality?
Do you understand what I'msaying?
Sorry, I'm asking this in a veryroundabout way, but I just
wanted to talk to you a littlebit about why you started that
hashtag and like what that'slooked like and um, you know,
and what you've seen peopledoing with it.
Jennifer (23:00):
Yeah, I started it sort of on a whim.
Again, back to that whole, like,I don't really have a plan, I'm
just trying to be honest thing.
I just felt like I hadn't postedon Instagram in a long time and
I was wearing a dress that I hadmade and I didn't feel like I
was downtown Manhattan.
(23:20):
I'm not gonna like pop out atripod and like, I don't know,
selfie myself on the street.
I feel uncomfortable even justholding my phone for let alone a
dress.
And you know, I was at thedentist and I was just, I just
needed to give myself permissionto post a non-model photo
(23:43):
because I to share this dress.
And so, you know, I just saidlike, why?
I mean, of course there are norules, right?
Like, of course I can shareanything I want, but I do think
that there is that extremepressure, especially on posting
from a business account.
You know, it's not just like,it's not just me.
(24:04):
There is this pressure to lookso good and have everything be
so polished and whatever.
Where does that pressure comefrom?
Again, it comes from myself.
Like it's not, there are norules, but because I had these
feelings, I just felt the needto like give myself permission
to do this, like just set tomake the rule that I can do
(24:25):
this.
And um, yeah, I think a lot ofpeople resonated with it too
now.
And not to say that like, yes, Iget it.
Some people, their real life isposing for modeling pictures
every day.
Instagram influencers are a realthing.
I get this at work, I mean,whatever.
And people make a living doingthat.
(24:46):
So I get that.
I guess I just wanted to alsoshow, you know, what my real
life looks like and that's notmy real life.
That particular day was, I wasat the dentist office, so, you
know.
Yeah.
Kat (25:01):
I wonder if some of this somehow is tied to what you were
saying earlier about feelinglike you're very good in person
and I think the closer you canget on social to like the, I
know authenticity is like such abuzzword now, but like the
closer you can get to like thatauthenticity of like what you're
actually like in person, I wouldsuspect that would feel a little
bit more comfortable or at leasta little bit, right?
Jennifer (25:23):
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, that's where Ipersonally feel the best.
So there are times when I'll dolike Instagram stories about
things that I'm working on orwhatever, and those feel the
best to me because it's justwhat I'm doing.
I'm not, I haven't rehearsed amessage, I'm not trying to
(25:44):
whatever, it's just this is comehang out with me, you know?
And I think people like that.
Kat (25:50):
Yeah, definitely.
Jennifer (25:51):
I mean, I like it.
Kat (25:54):
I think if you start from a place of like, as you were
saying, like you're a humanbeing, you have a sense of like
what it's like to be a humanbeing and what other human
beings are looking for.
Um, but I think always if youstart from a place with empathy,
it's a lot easier to kind ofunderstand like what everyone
else is looking for and what theintersection of that is with
(26:15):
what you have on offer.
So, um, so you're talking aboutlike being at the dentist,
right?
And that's obviously kind of anatypical day and what it looks
like in your life, right?
Like we don't go to the dentistevery day.
Um, so I'm wondering like, isthere a typical day in the life
of running your sewing studio orlike what could a typical day
(26:36):
look like or what are thedifferent things that kind of go
into running your business?
Jennifer (26:41):
I think probably no typical day, although I would
probably get a lot more done ifI did create more structure for
myself.
But you know, I think in anysmall business, I'm doing
everything from literallycleaning the toilets in the
studio space to right now I'mbuilding a new website because
(27:05):
our old website is old and buggyand crashing.
So I'm doing that.
I'm also doing all the logisticstuff for this camp that we
talked about earlier.
So that's coming up in about amonth and there's a lot of prep
to do.
Meanwhile, I've got threeclasses, three big classes that
are running in the studio thismonth.
So before I came here, I wasjust setting up prepping for the
(27:28):
class that's running thisweekend.
And through all of it, I'mtrying to make time to build my
YouTube channel because if youremember earlier I said I used
to make fun little videos andI'm trying to force myself into
being more creative and get backto some of those things that I
really enjoyed when I wasyounger.
(27:50):
So yeah, I haven't figured outhow to build that time and yet I
love that it's in the back of mymind all the time.
Kat (27:55):
Yeah.
Now, another question that arose, um, while I was just listening
to you talk, um, is kind ofabout, so when you're, when
you're an entrepreneur andyou're kind of, um, I feel like
in a lot of ways thatnecessitates like sort of like
building out a career track thatit's not like you can look at
someone else and do exactly whatthey did.
Right.
Cause like your business isgoing to differ from any other
(28:16):
business that you look at andyou as a person and a business
owner are going to differ.
So I'm wondering how do you kindof uplevel your skills?
Like what, how do you getbetter?
Jennifer (28:28):
Like it's really hard.
My complaint about being selfemployed is I don't have a boss
to learn from.
I l ean a lot on my colleaguesso I have really good
relationships with several ofmy, quite frankly, competitors.
Kat (28:44):
That's what I was gonna ask, too, like what does
community look like in thisindustry?
Jennifer (28:48):
But we are super supportive of each other.
Even this morning I wasstruggling with some stuff and
you know, texting some friends Ineed help and everyone rallies
and you know, so that's good.
We can learn from each other inthat way.
But I will say this questionthat you've asked about like how
to grow professionally is areally hard thing I think for
(29:11):
self-employed people.
So especially when you're sosmall like me, I don't know.
I did, I imagine like, I'mtrying to think about like CEOs
or like really top people at bigcompanies.
I feel like they have moreresources cause more people
believe in them because they aremore successful.
Kat (29:31):
So other stuff gets pushed up to them.
Like it's not just like boss inlike a traditional hierarchical
office situation where like yourboss would be like, Oh I think
you should go to this training,we're going to pay for you to
fly to this conference orwhatever it is.
But I think also like if you're,if let's say CEO of like a
Fortune 500 company, it's alsolike you've got a team
(29:51):
underneath you whose, like, partof their job is probably to
know, like to anticipate likewhat does this person need to
know next?
Like where is the world headed?
And then like help them helpensure that they have all of the
materials they need or whateverit is to get there.
Um, yeah, so that's reallyinteresting and I think like
also with, with your businesswhere it's like, I feel like
(30:13):
there are so many differenttypes of skillsets that go into
it.
And so that to me would alsolike seem like a challenge.
Like how do you decide, how doyou figure out like allocating
your time?
Jennifer (30:24):
Yeah.
Again, another reallychallenging thing that I have
faced because when it's only youat my size, I have limited
resources so I can spend my timedoing a or B.
And a lot of times I have tobalance like making money now
versus the potential to makemoney in the future.
(30:46):
And that I think can be a hardthing for a small business
because sometimes it feels likeif I don't make the money now,
I'm not going to make to makethe money in the future.
And so you have to sort of, Idon't know, just make your best,
most educated guesses to decidehow to spend your time.
Kat (31:06):
Yeah.
It's like that urgent versusimportant matrix.
So getting back to our earlierdiscussion on hobbies, so
obviously you are a businessowner, time is at a premium.
Um, how do you make time forthings that, you know, like
hobbies that don't necessarilycorrelate or correspond to what
(31:27):
you do in your business?
Jennifer (31:28):
Yes, I have been working on that for the last
year because it is reallyimportant I think to me.
So I don't, I don't have a goodanswer, but I will tell you
about some of the hobbies thatI've kind of been exploring.
And um, so one is knitting.
I learned how to knit a coupleof years ago and that's a pretty
(31:50):
easy and portable thing to have.
So I build time for knittinginto transit.
Like when I'm commuting ortravel or sometimes I'm not very
good.
So I have to look at my, uh, mydream is like one day I'll be
able to like, I don't know,watch watching to knit or
something.
(32:11):
I've also been trying to read alittle bit more because I don't
go into an office anymore.
I don't have a lot of readingtime.
So it's like, again, I don'tcommute.
Um, and so when I do commute,it's sort of in short spurts
versus like a longer sit down.
So knitting has been better onmy commuting time than reading.
So I've been trying to read alittle bit every night before
(32:34):
bed.
Kat (32:35):
What are you reading?
Jennifer (32:36):
Oh, actually I'm reading a really book right now
called, So You Want to Start aPodcast?
Kat (32:41):
Oh my God, you are, that's amazing.
Jennifer (32:44):
But because of I want to build up my YouTube channel
and the book is really aboutlike storytelling.
Oh, that's so cool.
Okay.
I'm going to add that in theshow notes and also I should
probably read it.
Yeah, it's great.
Well, and it is podcastspecific.
So, right.
It is good.
But I have again been wanting tobuild out my YouTube channel, so
(33:04):
that is, it is tied to mybusiness but still had the ish
and I haven't figured out a goodway to do that yet.
So maybe I can come back nextyear and tell you more.
Yeah, no, that would be amazing.
Um, yeah.
And then like my other questionis even with hobbies that aren't
tied to your business, right, doyou feel like they kind of pay
(33:28):
dividends in sort of roundaboutways like does doing, does like
having like diversity of how youspend your time like positively
impact your, your ability to, todo the things that you get paid
to do?
I'm sure they do.
I don't know if I can articulateexactly how, one thing that I do
(33:50):
really like to do that I stinkat is building things.
So I was going to saywoodworking, but it's not
woodworking because it's so,it's so, um, I don't know,
remedial, like woodworkers...
Kat (34:05):
Like a woodworker is going to like come out of the woodwork
and I'm sorry to make that joke
Jennifer (34:10):
But listen, I can use a circular saw and like I can
cut some wood.
So you know, my old studiolocation, I had built all the
furniture.
Kat (34:19):
No, that's awesome.
Okay.
You might get one for her thenit's
Jennifer (34:23):
just shelving and desks and things.
But you know, so I like doing,we built our, my husband and I
built our dining table in ourhouse.
So I like doing things likethat.
And that I think is directlyapplicable to sewing because
sewing, you know, they're bothbuilding things physical flat
into something three D.
(34:44):
I love that.
Yeah.
So it's just another way toexercise that like spatial, I
don't know, visibility in yourmind or whatever, like thinking
through, uh, an order ofoperations.
Okay.
You put this together first andthat means you put this together
second and if you get the orderout of whack, then what does
that mean to your final product?
(35:04):
And you know, that kind of likea, what point can you, like, is
there a point of no return wherelike you've gone too far in like
one quote unquote wrongdirection where you can't kind
of like, you know, as long asyou're not trying to, if you
are, if we're advocating for thecase being mediocre, everything
is salvageable in some way.
Kat (35:23):
That's very true.
Yeah.
I mean I recently took thisclass on um, tapestry weaving.
Oh, cool.
And, um, and I like, I think Ihad this cute idea that I was
going to be really good at itright off the bat and cause
there are other things that I'vedone, like I've been doing a lot
of these alcohol ink art thingsrecently.
Um, where I like did kind offeel like I had like a baseline,
(35:46):
like level of decency at itstarting off and the tapestry
weaving, I was like, yeah, this,it's almost like, um, what's
that thing called where like,like a Pinterest fail.
There's that show that they lookbased off of Pinterest fails or
it's like the Cookie Monstercupcakes that like are these
pristine, like they looked likethey were made by a professional
(36:07):
baker.
And then there's like the, likea melted where like it barely
looks like cookie monster.
And I feel like that's like kindof where I'm at on my tapestry
weaving.
Um, and yet at the same timelike I feel like doing that is
making me is like payingdividends, um, on other creative
projects that I'm doing and likethings like that I tend to feel,
(36:28):
and I don't know if I canproperly articulate this, but
like the more kind of the moredifferent, um, like buckets that
I have a hand in on likecreative projects and stuff.
It like has this way of makingmy mind feel more expansive
overall.
Um, so that when I sit down todo something that is like
squarely within my wheelhouse,like I'm, I've been writing a
(36:51):
lot of fiction this year or um,you know, like, I feel pretty
comfortable like talking topeople on podcast, things like
that.
Like, I feel like I come at itfrom almost like a different,
um, like with a different energythat all the other stuff feeds
into.
So I think that's reallyinteresting.
Yeah.
And so, um, yeah, as we start towrap up, like I, I'm wondering
(37:14):
like, so I think there's thisidea of like people are creative
or people are not creative and Ithink creativity can be kind of
an intimidating word sometimesfor people who don't view
themselves that way.
Um, and so sometimes the waythat all like reframe it is like
creativity can also be seen aslike a synonym for like
(37:36):
resourcefulness.
So I'm interested in like whatthat looks like in your business
or like if you have any examplesof how you've been, have you
used your creative mind to likebe resourceful to solve problems
that have arisen as a businessowner?
I know it's a big question.
Sorry.
Just throw that in at the end.
Jennifer (37:51):
Yeah, that is a big question.
I love solving problems and Ithink that this comes from my
old career as a publicist.
My favorite job used to beattending press junkets and
sitting in the like headquarterroom, the war room.
(38:12):
And I would just sit at thephone.
And so anytime anyone had aproblem, they would calm my line
inside.
It would be like, you know, haveone phone receiving the
problems, come up with asolution, pick up another phone
in like, or you know, dictatewhat the solution was.
Kat (38:28):
I wish this were a video podcast.
[inaudible] people that havelike the video of you, like just
pantomiming one phone, and thena second phone.
Jennifer (38:36):
I'm using my hands to like fake the phones in my ears.
Um, so, you know, I don't, I amnot totally sure when you say
like business problems, youknow, of course I think of sort
of abstract-y things, but I canthink of are the camp that we
produced.
There's always problems withthat.
And so I think being able tothink creatively or, you know,
(38:59):
just think differently to fixsomething that is broken.
I do that at that events a ton.
Our first year we blewelectricity in the building and
I to run a sewing machine youneed electricity.
So, you know, that was a problemthat had to be solved.
We did that by finding reallylong extension cords and running
(39:21):
power from the one part of thebuilding from the actually the
kitchen that ran all of theindustrial refrigerators.
Kat (39:28):
Oh my God.
Jennifer (39:29):
We unplugged all the refrigerators and ran power.
There was nothing in them.
And we ran those throughout thebuilding.
Um, I've had, you know, for thecamp, I have staff that fly in
from the United States andsometimes out of country.
And I've had two situationswhere staff members weren't able
(39:51):
to attend last minute.
So it's like, who's teachingthis class?
How, you know, what are we doingfor that?
And so, you know, being able to,to, to solve those problems, I
think it requires specialcreative skills.
And yeah, I don't thinkcreativity means just being able
to draw a pretty picture.
You know, it's, there's lots ofdifferent kinds of creative and
(40:13):
one of my favorite things that Ithink you should link to is the,
I don't remember if it's Harvardor, I feel like it's one of the
Ivy league schools.
They have a department oncreative problem solving or
design, I think it's called withdesign.
Kat (40:29):
So Stanford has a design, the d.school, the Stanford
d.school.
Jennifer (40:33):
There you go.
Kat (40:33):
They have an amazing, their website is actually really
great.
They've got a lot of resources.
So I should share those.
But sorry, continue.
Jennifer (40:40):
Yeah, I just love that philosophy.
It's all about like having aproblem, you know, coming up
with a solution and then tryingthat solution and if that
solution doesn't work, you know,going back like why.
Yeah.
And you know, I think that thatis a great way to think about
(41:00):
creativity because your problemcould be, I want to make this
pretty picture.
I don't know how or it could be,I have this like really
important bad thing happening.
How do I make it fixed?
Yeah.
Or like you think you're solvingone problem for a client or
customer or student or whateverit is.
Um, and you're actually, theproblem you are trying to solve
(41:22):
is not the problem they'recoming to you with.
And maybe they're notarticulating it.
So, yeah, because you, and Ithink this is like one of the
tenets of, of actually designedthinking is like getting to the
bottom of like what is theactual problem you're trying to
solve.
Yeah.
So I love that.
Um, so where can people findyou?
Well listen, you people inpodcast land are interested in
(41:46):
learning how to sew your ownclothes.
Cause let me tell ya, everyone'sgot to wear clothes every year.
Kat (41:51):
That's true.
Sadly, this oppressive societywe live in.
Jennifer (41:55):
You can find me at worksocial.com where we have all
of our classes listed for righthere in Brooklyn.
And sometimes I traveled toteach other places too.
Kat (42:04):
Very cool.
So I will include all of that inthe show notes as long as where
to find you on social media.
Although obviously we've.
Jennifer (42:10):
Workroom Social everywhere.
Luckily I have a weird name.
Kat (42:15):
Okay.
Actually, I'm sorry, I said wewere wrapping up, but can we
talk about where the name camefrom and how you,
Jennifer (42:21):
so I was actually talking to some friends about
this recently because um, youknow, if you have like a sewing
sounding name, you run the riskof other people using that same
name without knowing orwhatever.
So my, the original company namewas going to be Top Stitched or
Top Stitch or something likethat.
(42:41):
I don't know which is uh, justvisible stitching on clothes.
Kat (42:45):
I know that from legally blonde, but that's it.
There you go.
Yeah, that's my reference.
Jennifer (42:50):
And the recommendation to me was do not do that because
you might be faced with, youknow, infringing on someone
else's rights or someone comingin later and infringe on yours.
So I went back to the drawingboard trying to figure out a
name.
And you know, I think sewing andany kind of hobby or creative
endeavor is work.
(43:11):
Right?
And I don't think that worknecessarily needs to be like, it
needs to have a negativeconnotation where it can be a
positive thing.
And we do work in a room.
So I don't know, that's just howthat came together.
But I also wanted to communicatethis idea of building community
and having fun and makingfriends.
So that's where the social partcame in.
(43:32):
I love it.
It's perfect.
Um, I've wondered that for yearsand I never thought to ask you
until now.
So there you go.
Work room Social.
Kat (43:39):
Great.
Um, thank you so much for takingthe time to speak with me today.
Thanks for helping me bring thisto my audience and, um, again,
I'll drop everything in the shownotes, but Jennifer, thanks so
much.
Outro (43:57):
So that's this week's episode of How to Be Creative.
As always, you can find shownotes, including a complete
episode transcript and links toeverything discussed at
howtobecreative.org.
You're listening to How to Be Creative, a podcast about
what it means to be creativeacross different disciplines,
industries, life circumstances,and career structures.
You'll learn tips for fittingcreativity into your daily life
and hear from a bunch ofdifferent people about how being
creative has helped them reachgoals, open doors, and live a
more rewarding--or at least moreinteresting--life.
(00:24):
I'm your host, Kat O'Leary, andI'm excited to introduce you to
some of my favorite creatives,as well as to the tools that
help me get my most crucial workdone.
Kat (00:40):
So today I'm here with Jennifer Wiese.
Hi Jen!
Jennifer (00:44):
Hi!
Kat (00:45):
Jen is the founder of Workroom Social, which is a
sewing studio based in Brooklyn,New York, where I also live.
And Jen's philosophy is that shebelieves that every woman can
lead a joyful, creative andconfident life, and she knows
that sewing your own clothes andwearing these you-made clothes
is a surefire way to find joy,creativity, and confidence every
(01:08):
day.
Jennifer is on a mission toempower women just like you to
sew clothes, the clothes theywant to wear.
I love that so much.
I think that's reallyincredible.
Jennifer (01:16):
Listen, I'm wearing jeans that I made today and I
love them.
Kat (01:20):
Those are the Claryville jeans.
Jennifer (01:22):
Yes they are.
Kat (01:24):
They're really, I feel like they're like so flattering and I
love the wash of themespecially.
Jennifer (01:29):
Thanks.
Kat (01:31):
Um, so if you're listening to this and you want to know
what they look like, you canactually go find Jen's
Instagram, which is just@workroomsocial.
Jennifer (01:37):
Yep,@workroomsocial.
Oh.
Or you can search#clarvillejeansand see all of the different
genes that other people havemade.
Kat (01:44):
Very cool.
And[inaudible] am I rememberingcorrectly, you did some
something over the summer whereyou did like a workshop where
everyone made their own.
Jennifer (01:51):
Yeah, so I teach classes here in Brooklyn and we
teach people, like you said, howto sew their own clothes.
We cater specifically to women,but of course men are welcome
too, and we have had men in ourjeans making intensives.
So that's what you're talkingabout.
We teach jeans-making intensivesfor people who want to, sew
(02:11):
their own jeans come to us andyou make them together with us.
And the jeans pattern that theyuse in that class is the
Claryville, too.
Kat (02:19):
Very powerful.
And that's like your originaldesign.
That's so awesome.
I love that.
So I wanted to get started, justtalk a little bit about, um,
kind of your background, how youended up starting this business.
Um, and I guess maybe thelogical part to start with is
how did you start sewing in thefirst place?
Jennifer (02:37):
I was in an independent study class in high
school and I had a friend whosemother sewed, and I don't
totally remember all of thedetails c ause that's h igh s
chool, a long time ago.
But the best thing that I canguess is that she had made me a
couple of things in thisindependent study class.
(02:57):
I needed a project.
So was like, h uh, maybe Ishould learn how to sew, just
because I h ad t hat influence.
My teacher at the time wasreally amazing.
She's one of those specialteachers that you'll remember
forever and ever.
And she, I d on't k now, foundme a sewing machine somehow.
And u m, I taught myself how tos ew through that class.
Kat (03:17):
That's so interesting.
And it's funny because we'vebeen friends for several years
now and I don't think I everasked you that or knew about
that before.
Um, sometimes when I'm talkingto someone for the podcast who I
already know, I'm askingquestions where I'm like, I knew
the answer to this, but I wanteveryone else to make it to you.
And this time like I was like,Oh no, I learned something.
Um, cause I guess in my head Iwas like, Oh well you must have
(03:40):
grown up like your mom must havesewn or your grandmother or
something.
It must've been t his thingthat's passed down.
S o I kind of love that.
It's, that's actually kind of asurprise.
U m, and so from there, like howdid you end up, c ause I know
early on in your career you werein PR, right?
And so like you, it'sinteresting because I think one
of the things that I l ike somuch about you and like your
(04:02):
work and one of the reasons whyI wanted to bring you on the
podcast is I think you have thisunique blend of the ability.
You have this amazing skillwhich is sewing, right?
And the ability to teach.
And then you're also just such astrong strategic communicator.
And I feel like that has to belike a combination of like your
PR background.
(04:22):
Um, and just it needs skill andthen also like doing sewing as
well, kind of sounds like fromhigh school on.
So I'm interested in hearingmore about what the evolution
looked like from like kind oflike a standard like
communications career to likemorphing into being an
entrepreneur and running yourown business and this particular
type of business.
Jennifer (04:42):
Yeah, I mean that sounds so like linear and
planned.
Yeah, it definitely was not likethat.
I, you know, sewing was sort of,I've always been a maker ever
since I was little.
And I think that one of thethings I've read somewhere is
like the thing that you are themost successful at or can be the
(05:03):
most successful at when you're agrown up is like the thing that
you really just naturallygravitated towards.
And not that I am, I mean I runa business so I'm not sewing all
the time.
Like I'm making lots of otherthings, um, whether it's, you
know, updates to my website or Ilike whatever, producing some
(05:24):
new class curriculum orwhatever, but I was always
making some and um, so I dunno,just throughout, I guess from
being a child to an adult, itwas always, I was always trying
to figure out how to makesomething new.
So in college I was reallyinterested in, uh, well I
(05:45):
studied economics, so it was allabout sort of like psychology
and more about like how to makepeople do things.
Um, and then I always loved[inaudible].
Kat (05:56):
Like behavioral economics?
Jennifer (05:57):
Yeah.
Economics was what I really,yeah, which I always thought of.
It's more of like a psychologythan a study of money, but it's
all about decision making.
So, um, and then I always lovedentertainment and so I was
always interested in makingvideos and like storytelling.
(06:22):
And so that was sort of a hobby.
In college.
I would produce these littlelike videos that I don't even
know how to explain it, likelittle music videos with friends
and all kinds of stuff likethat.
And then that led me to film.
So I worked in, um, just likeinterning on film sets and stuff
like that.
(06:42):
But it was, I don't know, thatwas not a career that I could
see myself doing mostly becauseI think I didn't have any role
models or like no real lifeexamples of that working for
people.
And so that was when I made theleap into an office job, which I
knew people who had office jobs.
(07:03):
So like, so then I went intofilm marketing and then I was
making marketing campaigns fordays that, you know, I was
working on.
Um, that eventually led to medeciding that, uh, I dunno, it
just wasn't the rightpersonality fit.
It's cause at the end of theday, movies in that regard are
(07:25):
all about money and makingmoney, which we all need to make
money, but it just didn't feelit wasn't the right fit for me.
So I left and, um, I don't know.
I didn't know what I was gonnado for a long time.
So then I made all kinds ofother random things.
I made logos, I did freelance,graphic design, I did, um,
(07:50):
photographies.
So I made images and I don'tknow, at some point I, um,
decided to make this littlebusiness.
And at first I thought it wasgoing to be a fabric store.
Um, but that was too much of afinancial investment.
You do produce now I producefabrics.
Yeah.
(08:10):
But back then, you know, Ithought I would, I don't know,
build up an inventory.
It'd be like a regular fabricstore, but that's so expensive,
and I funded the company all bymyself.
So like that just wasn'tfeasible.
So in the beginning I wasactually making the actual
fabrics, like screen printingthem by hand and that just was
(08:33):
not a, that's not viable.
You know, you can't feasiblysupport yourself on yeah, no
that did not work.
So I started teaching because Ilove teaching and I've always,
you know, going back to thatthing like what did you do as a
kid?
Also as a kid I was always likevolunteering to teach people.
(08:54):
They like run little trainings.
This completely trial.
Kat (08:58):
It makes so much sense.
Jennifer (08:59):
So I dunno.
And then I was like, huh, well Iwas teaching for other studios,
both screen printing and sewingand I was just like, I don't, I
don't control anything.
And I love controlling things.
So that was when I decided tostart my own teachings.
And so that's what we do now.
Kat (09:19):
So did you, when you started your studio, did you
rent a space or did you have it?
Jennifer (09:25):
When I started my studio, I actually started it in
my house.
So you would show up to my houseand probably be a little bit
confused.
Um, but I had a section on myhouse that was dedicated to the,
you know, quote studio area andit was enough space for six
(09:45):
students and we did all of ourclasses there.
It was great.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
Kat (09:49):
And then you've, I've, cause I've been to a couple of
different, I guess locations[inaudible] around and then you
also do a lot of offsite stuff.
Like you do a camp right everysummer.
So maybe we should talk aboutthat.
Cause actually I always, I amalways so envious of any kind of
camp experience.
And I don't know at some pointlike it's funny, I kind of have
like this very like longtermlife to-do list thing.
(10:14):
And at some point I'm like goingto take classes with you and I'm
going to learn how to sewbecause, and I've like talked
about this like I feel like on acouple of different episodes or
maybe I've just been having thisconversation with people in my
life lately, but there's this,um, this comic that I discovered
that talks about this idea oflike, Oh, it takes seven years
(10:35):
to master something.
So if you're like, whatever ageyou still have, you know,
potentially like 11 other livesthat you can live.
As I started thinking about therest of my life in terms of like
what are all the careers that Ikind of have like knocked off my
list because like I'm doing thisright now.
Um, and what's, what's sort ofthe timeline for like doing some
of those things later.
(10:55):
And one of them that I keepcoming back to is like, I really
want to be like an avant gardefashion designer and in order to
do that I want to like learnlike actually like how to sew
garments.
Cause like I can sit there andlike draw something but I don't
have any sense of like what goesinto like ensuring that it has
the structural integrity.
Jennifer (11:12):
Yes.
I like where your thinking isgoing, but so the audience at
home can't see this when you'rewearing a pretty killer
jumpsuit, I guess a jumpsuitthat's like, I don't know,
grass, green, beautifuljumpsuit.
And you could totally make this.
Kat (11:29):
You think so?
Jennifer (11:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
Kat (11:31):
This is like all I would wear if I could make this, I
would just make it in like 20different colors.
Jennifer (11:36):
You can, you can, yeah.
So that's, sorry, that's my kindof little sidebar there.
But um, but yeah, like so camp,okay, let's talk about camp.
Yeah.
So I produce an adult sleepawaycamp.
It is not during the summerbecause we do it at a real
summer camp.
So they need the space duringthe summer.
(11:58):
It's fall.
Yeah.
It's every October and it's herein New York state in the
Catskills.
And it's about a hundred womenwho get together once a year and
learn how to sew something overa long weekend and also do
summer, campy type activities.
That's sleep in the mostuncomfortable[inaudible] in the
(12:20):
world, but it doesn't matter.
Kat (12:23):
So who tends to sign up for that is that people who are very
experienced sewers?.
Jennifer (12:27):
We have a range.
Yeah.
It really ranges.
Sewer is I think thegrammatically correct, but
sewist is the, I feel like themodern version of the word that
people are using.
I think people don't like theway, sewer is spelled was this
sewer, they were so, you know,to each their own, call it
(12:50):
whatever you want the person whosews.
So it's a range of beginninglevel people to experienced
people.
We don't do any, just likeyou've never touched a sewing
machine.
But we do have classes thatrange in our classes are
(13:10):
designed for you to really divedeep into a subject, versus
conventions where you might havelike 10 classes and they're all
like an hour long, whatever.
Our class is designed where youhave one and you do it for 16
hours over the course of twodays.
Kat (13:28):
Yeah.
I love it.
Oh, that sounds so fun.
Jennifer (13:30):
And you can make the jeans.
Kat (13:31):
Yeah.
Very, very cool.
Um, so getting back to what Iwas saying earlier about how
like I've just been reallyimpressed with your strategic
communication ability andobviously like as a small
business owner, that's huge.
Um, so I wanted to talk a littlebit about kind of how you've
built out like using like I feellike you've, you've done a
(13:52):
really great job of likebuilding out a social media
strategy to support your brand.
And so I wanted to talk a littlebit about kind of like what
that's looked like.
Um, and, um, and like what, whatdoes marketing look like in
general for you?
Not to like make this like superbusinessy like you, like I'm
asking this question reallybadly, but like I want your
(14:13):
perspective.
Jennifer (14:14):
I guess like the big secret is that it is, I just
tried to be as honest aspossible and as real as
possible, which is why you'llnotice that I go through spurts
where like I don't post anythingbecause I actually don't really
(14:38):
have a plan, which is somethingthat my fellow colleagues have
challenged me on to actually sitdown and like make a real plan.
But you know, I, it's me andsometimes I get tired.
So, you know, I then I just, Idon't do that work, but I think
(15:00):
in just trying to be as honestas possible, I think that
resonates with people a lot.
And so, you know, for me sewingis about more than just the act
of sewing itself.
I think like hobbies are reallyimportant.
I think being a little bit morein it and yeah, I'll keep
(15:23):
talking, but I love that.
Yeah.
I think for a lot of people it'sabout having interests that you
know, give you more fulfillmentin life that build a community
of friends.
I always say like the hardestthing, one of the hardest things
to do as a grownup is to makenew friends, to make friends
(15:44):
with strangers.
And sewing allows us to do that.
So you know, as far as likestrategic communications goes,
it's just I'm a human and I feelall the same things that I think
a lot of people feel.
So where I'm comfortable I tryto share that I struggle a
(16:05):
little bit because I do think ifI shared more than I would grow
even bigger, faster.
But again, back to that like I'ma human just like everyone else
thing I'm, I do, I'm not totallycomfortable with, you know, just
being like fully, fullyvulnerable and out there on the
(16:27):
internet.
And if you listen to some of myother interviews with other
people, like I talk a lot abouthow like I actually don't really
like social media.
It makes me very uncomfortable.
I've been trying to,
Kat (16:41):
I feel like you're so good at it and you, and I think this
is probably like, this happens alot where like what, what people
who are observing your socialpresence see is very different
from how it feels to you on theother side of that.
Jennifer (16:53):
Yeah.
I'm like a good in-personperson.
I just don't feel which isdifferent.
Right.
I feel like nowadays people lovethe internet because it gives
you the flexibility to likepresent whatever it is you want
to portray.
I don't know.
I don't like that.
I'd rather just like meet youand you can actually see that
this is just how I[inaudible].
Kat (17:11):
Right.
Yeah, that's very true.
Um, yeah.
So, uh, just touching a littlebit on your comment about having
hobbies, this is something thatyou and I have discussed, um, in
the past, this idea.
So I think there's thispervasive idea and I think with
probably in part because ofsocial media and how we're all
so digitally connected all thetime, there's this sense that
(17:34):
like anything you're spendingyour time on has to be tied to
some like greater purpose and ina lot of cases some kind of like
moneymaking purpose.
And I really do see a lot ofvalue in hobbies and I, I get
the sense that they're devaluedin a way now that they, I feel
like they were more valued likeI don't know, several decades.
Jennifer (17:56):
Yeah.
Maybe by society, like you'resaying just in general, but I
kind of feel like who cares?
Like I mean I think that's thepoint or that's part of the
thing that you have to figureout what makes you happy and do
that thing and like who careswhat other people think about
it.
The times had a, the New Yorktimes had a good article a
(18:17):
couple of years ago.
I feel like it was called someof the case for being mediocre.
You sent it to me actually tryto dig that up and put it in the
shower.
It's talking about just like howpeople used to have hobbies.
And there, there is a lot ofsatisfaction that can be found
in just spending your time doingsomething just to do it just for
fun and you know.
Kat (18:38):
Yeah, absolutely.
And that's, it's something thatI, um, you know, really tried to
do for myself.
Um, not just do things wherelike, Oh, I know if I do this
I'm going to be the best at itor I'm going to be really good
at it.
But I try to do a lot of thingswhere I'm like, I'm mediocre at
best at this.
But there's still value in mysitting down.
And I think it's especially truefor things where there's like a
(18:59):
finished product associated withit.
Um, so for example, you had run,so you and I met through
volunteer work and a few yearsago you ran, um, a day long
training for us, for ourvolunteer group.
And, um, we made part of one ofour activities was that cause we
held it at your studio.
We made these little, um, likeenvelope clutches and I feel
(19:21):
like that was just such asatisfying thing.I still have
mine.
Like I saw it in my room theother day.
It was so funny.
I was like, Oh good, I get tosee Jennifer this week.
And it's great and it's great.
And like it was such a funproject and it's like we did all
of those, like we sent sat downand spent like, I don't know,
maybe a couple of hours on it,but it wasn't like, all right,
(19:43):
and now we're going to go intothe clutch and the envelope,
clutch producing business andwe're just going to sell these
and we're going to like, youknow, build a brand based on
them.
And it's like, no, we sat down,we did the work.
We enjoyed the process ofcreating something for the
purpose of creating it.
Um, and I tried to do more andmore of that when I can,
especially with like, I don'tthink of myself as a person with
(20:05):
like a lot of, um, kind ofvisual, artistic ability, but
I've tried to dabble more inlike just doing things.
Like I know I'm going to be badat that and that's, that's fine.
And I still enjoy the process oflike sitting down and sketching
or you know, doing a watercolorcoloring.
Jennifer (20:20):
Totally, but also like, I think the wonderful
thing is like, listen, you'renot going to be the next
Picasso, but the more you do it,the better you're going to get
at it.
And I move that is totallysatisfied.
Read completely.
Even if you're not going to bethe super bestest, bestest ever
in the whole world, you're goingto be better than you were a
month ago.
And I think that that is cool.
Kat (20:40):
Yeah.
And I think also kind ofviolates this idea that people
have of talent being innate.
Um, I like for me, somethingthat I really value is growth
and progress and improvement.
And, um, I don't know, at leastI feel like I was raised with
this idea of like, either you'regood at something or you're not,
or like you like this or you'renot, like, you don't like this.
(21:01):
And I've tried to be a lot less,uh, or, um, kind of embraced
less of a fixed mindset as I'vegrown as an adult.
Um, and so a lot of that for meis like this idea of like, maybe
I'm bad at this today, but if Ikeep doing it, then I will see
incremental growth on it and alland improvement.
Um, and I think sewing isprobably a really great example
(21:22):
of that.
Like, it's literally, it's likeno one is going to sit down at a
sewing machine.
It's not something you can havean innate skill in.
Right.
I don't think so.
Like you might have, like,
Jennifer (21:31):
Definitely certain people are better at just using
their hands than others, youknow?
But yeah, no, it is somethingyou have to learn how to do.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah.
Um, and so I feel like I'mjumping around a lot.
Um, but one of the things that Iwant to talk about, so we were
talking a little bit aboutsocial media.
I wanted to talk about your#sewinginreallife campaign,
which as a non-sewist um, youknow, I've watched it, just from
the perspective of someone whois interested in your business,
(22:00):
who's a friend of yours, um, andI've really like, uh, and, and
I'd like to hear like how youdescribe it, but my impression
of it is like, it's aboutshowing kind of the reality of
what your relationship withsewing looks like.
So I think on Instagramespecially, there's a tendency
(22:21):
to like show only, and I'm fullycapable, fully guilty of this.
And like, it's actually kind oflike, I like to have a more
polished feed I guess.
But I think also like that's notthe reality of the situation.
And it's, um, it's kind of likepeople create these polished
feeds that are supposed to bevery aspirational, but how can
(22:43):
something be aspirational thatisn't based in reality?
Do you understand what I'msaying?
Sorry, I'm asking this in a veryroundabout way, but I just
wanted to talk to you a littlebit about why you started that
hashtag and like what that'slooked like and um, you know,
and what you've seen peopledoing with it.
Jennifer (23:00):
Yeah, I started it sort of on a whim.
Again, back to that whole, like,I don't really have a plan, I'm
just trying to be honest thing.
I just felt like I hadn't postedon Instagram in a long time and
I was wearing a dress that I hadmade and I didn't feel like I
was downtown Manhattan.
(23:20):
I'm not gonna like pop out atripod and like, I don't know,
selfie myself on the street.
I feel uncomfortable even justholding my phone for let alone a
dress.
And you know, I was at thedentist and I was just, I just
needed to give myself permissionto post a non-model photo
(23:43):
because I to share this dress.
And so, you know, I just saidlike, why?
I mean, of course there are norules, right?
Like, of course I can shareanything I want, but I do think
that there is that extremepressure, especially on posting
from a business account.
You know, it's not just like,it's not just me.
(24:04):
There is this pressure to lookso good and have everything be
so polished and whatever.
Where does that pressure comefrom?
Again, it comes from myself.
Like it's not, there are norules, but because I had these
feelings, I just felt the needto like give myself permission
to do this, like just set tomake the rule that I can do
(24:25):
this.
And um, yeah, I think a lot ofpeople resonated with it too
now.
And not to say that like, yes, Iget it.
Some people, their real life isposing for modeling pictures
every day.
Instagram influencers are a realthing.
I get this at work, I mean,whatever.
And people make a living doingthat.
(24:46):
So I get that.
I guess I just wanted to alsoshow, you know, what my real
life looks like and that's notmy real life.
That particular day was, I wasat the dentist office, so, you
know.
Yeah.
Kat (25:01):
I wonder if some of this somehow is tied to what you were
saying earlier about feelinglike you're very good in person
and I think the closer you canget on social to like the, I
know authenticity is like such abuzzword now, but like the
closer you can get to like thatauthenticity of like what you're
actually like in person, I wouldsuspect that would feel a little
bit more comfortable or at leasta little bit, right?
Jennifer (25:23):
Yeah.
I mean, yeah, that's where Ipersonally feel the best.
So there are times when I'll dolike Instagram stories about
things that I'm working on orwhatever, and those feel the
best to me because it's justwhat I'm doing.
I'm not, I haven't rehearsed amessage, I'm not trying to
(25:44):
whatever, it's just this is comehang out with me, you know?
And I think people like that.
Kat (25:50):
Yeah, definitely.
Jennifer (25:51):
I mean, I like it.
Kat (25:54):
I think if you start from a place of like, as you were
saying, like you're a humanbeing, you have a sense of like
what it's like to be a humanbeing and what other human
beings are looking for.
Um, but I think always if youstart from a place with empathy,
it's a lot easier to kind ofunderstand like what everyone
else is looking for and what theintersection of that is with
(26:15):
what you have on offer.
So, um, so you're talking aboutlike being at the dentist,
right?
And that's obviously kind of anatypical day and what it looks
like in your life, right?
Like we don't go to the dentistevery day.
Um, so I'm wondering like, isthere a typical day in the life
of running your sewing studio orlike what could a typical day
(26:36):
look like or what are thedifferent things that kind of go
into running your business?
Jennifer (26:41):
I think probably no typical day, although I would
probably get a lot more done ifI did create more structure for
myself.
But you know, I think in anysmall business, I'm doing
everything from literallycleaning the toilets in the
studio space to right now I'mbuilding a new website because
(27:05):
our old website is old and buggyand crashing.
So I'm doing that.
I'm also doing all the logisticstuff for this camp that we
talked about earlier.
So that's coming up in about amonth and there's a lot of prep
to do.
Meanwhile, I've got threeclasses, three big classes that
are running in the studio thismonth.
So before I came here, I wasjust setting up prepping for the
(27:28):
class that's running thisweekend.
And through all of it, I'mtrying to make time to build my
YouTube channel because if youremember earlier I said I used
to make fun little videos andI'm trying to force myself into
being more creative and get backto some of those things that I
really enjoyed when I wasyounger.
(27:50):
So yeah, I haven't figured outhow to build that time and yet I
love that it's in the back of mymind all the time.
Kat (27:55):
Yeah.
Now, another question that arose, um, while I was just listening
to you talk, um, is kind ofabout, so when you're, when
you're an entrepreneur andyou're kind of, um, I feel like
in a lot of ways thatnecessitates like sort of like
building out a career track thatit's not like you can look at
someone else and do exactly whatthey did.
Right.
Cause like your business isgoing to differ from any other
(28:16):
business that you look at andyou as a person and a business
owner are going to differ.
So I'm wondering how do you kindof uplevel your skills?
Like what, how do you getbetter?
Jennifer (28:28):
Like it's really hard.
My complaint about being selfemployed is I don't have a boss
to learn from.
I l ean a lot on my colleaguesso I have really good
relationships with several ofmy, quite frankly, competitors.
Kat (28:44):
That's what I was gonna ask, too, like what does
community look like in thisindustry?
Jennifer (28:48):
But we are super supportive of each other.
Even this morning I wasstruggling with some stuff and
you know, texting some friends Ineed help and everyone rallies
and you know, so that's good.
We can learn from each other inthat way.
But I will say this questionthat you've asked about like how
to grow professionally is areally hard thing I think for
(29:11):
self-employed people.
So especially when you're sosmall like me, I don't know.
I did, I imagine like, I'mtrying to think about like CEOs
or like really top people at bigcompanies.
I feel like they have moreresources cause more people
believe in them because they aremore successful.
Kat (29:31):
So other stuff gets pushed up to them.
Like it's not just like boss inlike a traditional hierarchical
office situation where like yourboss would be like, Oh I think
you should go to this training,we're going to pay for you to
fly to this conference orwhatever it is.
But I think also like if you're,if let's say CEO of like a
Fortune 500 company, it's alsolike you've got a team
(29:51):
underneath you whose, like, partof their job is probably to
know, like to anticipate likewhat does this person need to
know next?
Like where is the world headed?
And then like help them helpensure that they have all of the
materials they need or whateverit is to get there.
Um, yeah, so that's reallyinteresting and I think like
also with, with your businesswhere it's like, I feel like
(30:13):
there are so many differenttypes of skillsets that go into
it.
And so that to me would alsolike seem like a challenge.
Like how do you decide, how doyou figure out like allocating
your time?
Jennifer (30:24):
Yeah.
Again, another reallychallenging thing that I have
faced because when it's only youat my size, I have limited
resources so I can spend my timedoing a or B.
And a lot of times I have tobalance like making money now
versus the potential to makemoney in the future.
(30:46):
And that I think can be a hardthing for a small business
because sometimes it feels likeif I don't make the money now,
I'm not going to make to makethe money in the future.
And so you have to sort of, Idon't know, just make your best,
most educated guesses to decidehow to spend your time.
Kat (31:06):
Yeah.
It's like that urgent versusimportant matrix.
So getting back to our earlierdiscussion on hobbies, so
obviously you are a businessowner, time is at a premium.
Um, how do you make time forthings that, you know, like
hobbies that don't necessarilycorrelate or correspond to what
(31:27):
you do in your business?
Jennifer (31:28):
Yes, I have been working on that for the last
year because it is reallyimportant I think to me.
So I don't, I don't have a goodanswer, but I will tell you
about some of the hobbies thatI've kind of been exploring.
And um, so one is knitting.
I learned how to knit a coupleof years ago and that's a pretty
(31:50):
easy and portable thing to have.
So I build time for knittinginto transit.
Like when I'm commuting ortravel or sometimes I'm not very
good.
So I have to look at my, uh, mydream is like one day I'll be
able to like, I don't know,watch watching to knit or
something.
(32:11):
I've also been trying to read alittle bit more because I don't
go into an office anymore.
I don't have a lot of readingtime.
So it's like, again, I don'tcommute.
Um, and so when I do commute,it's sort of in short spurts
versus like a longer sit down.
So knitting has been better onmy commuting time than reading.
So I've been trying to read alittle bit every night before
(32:34):
bed.
Kat (32:35):
What are you reading?
Jennifer (32:36):
Oh, actually I'm reading a really book right now
called, So You Want to Start aPodcast?
Kat (32:41):
Oh my God, you are, that's amazing.
Jennifer (32:44):
But because of I want to build up my YouTube channel
and the book is really aboutlike storytelling.
Oh, that's so cool.
Okay.
I'm going to add that in theshow notes and also I should
probably read it.
Yeah, it's great.
Well, and it is podcastspecific.
So, right.
It is good.
But I have again been wanting tobuild out my YouTube channel, so
(33:04):
that is, it is tied to mybusiness but still had the ish
and I haven't figured out a goodway to do that yet.
So maybe I can come back nextyear and tell you more.
Yeah, no, that would be amazing.
Um, yeah.
And then like my other questionis even with hobbies that aren't
tied to your business, right, doyou feel like they kind of pay
(33:28):
dividends in sort of roundaboutways like does doing, does like
having like diversity of how youspend your time like positively
impact your, your ability to, todo the things that you get paid
to do?
I'm sure they do.
I don't know if I can articulateexactly how, one thing that I do
(33:50):
really like to do that I stinkat is building things.
So I was going to saywoodworking, but it's not
woodworking because it's so,it's so, um, I don't know,
remedial, like woodworkers...
Kat (34:05):
Like a woodworker is going to like come out of the woodwork
and I'm sorry to make that joke
Jennifer (34:10):
But listen, I can use a circular saw and like I can
cut some wood.
So you know, my old studiolocation, I had built all the
furniture.
Kat (34:19):
No, that's awesome.
Okay.
You might get one for her thenit's
Jennifer (34:23):
just shelving and desks and things.
But you know, so I like doing,we built our, my husband and I
built our dining table in ourhouse.
So I like doing things likethat.
And that I think is directlyapplicable to sewing because
sewing, you know, they're bothbuilding things physical flat
into something three D.
(34:44):
I love that.
Yeah.
So it's just another way toexercise that like spatial, I
don't know, visibility in yourmind or whatever, like thinking
through, uh, an order ofoperations.
Okay.
You put this together first andthat means you put this together
second and if you get the orderout of whack, then what does
that mean to your final product?
(35:04):
And you know, that kind of likea, what point can you, like, is
there a point of no return wherelike you've gone too far in like
one quote unquote wrongdirection where you can't kind
of like, you know, as long asyou're not trying to, if you
are, if we're advocating for thecase being mediocre, everything
is salvageable in some way.
Kat (35:23):
That's very true.
Yeah.
I mean I recently took thisclass on um, tapestry weaving.
Oh, cool.
And, um, and I like, I think Ihad this cute idea that I was
going to be really good at itright off the bat and cause
there are other things that I'vedone, like I've been doing a lot
of these alcohol ink art thingsrecently.
Um, where I like did kind offeel like I had like a baseline,
(35:46):
like level of decency at itstarting off and the tapestry
weaving, I was like, yeah, this,it's almost like, um, what's
that thing called where like,like a Pinterest fail.
There's that show that they lookbased off of Pinterest fails or
it's like the Cookie Monstercupcakes that like are these
pristine, like they looked likethey were made by a professional
(36:07):
baker.
And then there's like the, likea melted where like it barely
looks like cookie monster.
And I feel like that's like kindof where I'm at on my tapestry
weaving.
Um, and yet at the same timelike I feel like doing that is
making me is like payingdividends, um, on other creative
projects that I'm doing and likethings like that I tend to feel,
(36:28):
and I don't know if I canproperly articulate this, but
like the more kind of the moredifferent, um, like buckets that
I have a hand in on likecreative projects and stuff.
It like has this way of makingmy mind feel more expansive
overall.
Um, so that when I sit down todo something that is like
squarely within my wheelhouse,like I'm, I've been writing a
(36:51):
lot of fiction this year or um,you know, like, I feel pretty
comfortable like talking topeople on podcast, things like
that.
Like, I feel like I come at itfrom almost like a different,
um, like with a different energythat all the other stuff feeds
into.
So I think that's reallyinteresting.
Yeah.
And so, um, yeah, as we start towrap up, like I, I'm wondering
(37:14):
like, so I think there's thisidea of like people are creative
or people are not creative and Ithink creativity can be kind of
an intimidating word sometimesfor people who don't view
themselves that way.
Um, and so sometimes the waythat all like reframe it is like
creativity can also be seen aslike a synonym for like
(37:36):
resourcefulness.
So I'm interested in like whatthat looks like in your business
or like if you have any examplesof how you've been, have you
used your creative mind to likebe resourceful to solve problems
that have arisen as a businessowner?
I know it's a big question.
Sorry.
Just throw that in at the end.
Jennifer (37:51):
Yeah, that is a big question.
I love solving problems and Ithink that this comes from my
old career as a publicist.
My favorite job used to beattending press junkets and
sitting in the like headquarterroom, the war room.
(38:12):
And I would just sit at thephone.
And so anytime anyone had aproblem, they would calm my line
inside.
It would be like, you know, haveone phone receiving the
problems, come up with asolution, pick up another phone
in like, or you know, dictatewhat the solution was.
Kat (38:28):
I wish this were a video podcast.
[inaudible] people that havelike the video of you, like just
pantomiming one phone, and thena second phone.
Jennifer (38:36):
I'm using my hands to like fake the phones in my ears.
Um, so, you know, I don't, I amnot totally sure when you say
like business problems, youknow, of course I think of sort
of abstract-y things, but I canthink of are the camp that we
produced.
There's always problems withthat.
And so I think being able tothink creatively or, you know,
(38:59):
just think differently to fixsomething that is broken.
I do that at that events a ton.
Our first year we blewelectricity in the building and
I to run a sewing machine youneed electricity.
So, you know, that was a problemthat had to be solved.
We did that by finding reallylong extension cords and running
(39:21):
power from the one part of thebuilding from the actually the
kitchen that ran all of theindustrial refrigerators.
Kat (39:28):
Oh my God.
Jennifer (39:29):
We unplugged all the refrigerators and ran power.
There was nothing in them.
And we ran those throughout thebuilding.
Um, I've had, you know, for thecamp, I have staff that fly in
from the United States andsometimes out of country.
And I've had two situationswhere staff members weren't able
(39:51):
to attend last minute.
So it's like, who's teachingthis class?
How, you know, what are we doingfor that?
And so, you know, being able to,to, to solve those problems, I
think it requires specialcreative skills.
And yeah, I don't thinkcreativity means just being able
to draw a pretty picture.
You know, it's, there's lots ofdifferent kinds of creative and
(40:13):
one of my favorite things that Ithink you should link to is the,
I don't remember if it's Harvardor, I feel like it's one of the
Ivy league schools.
They have a department oncreative problem solving or
design, I think it's called withdesign.
Kat (40:29):
So Stanford has a design, the d.school, the Stanford
d.school.
Jennifer (40:33):
There you go.
Kat (40:33):
They have an amazing, their website is actually really
great.
They've got a lot of resources.
So I should share those.
But sorry, continue.
Jennifer (40:40):
Yeah, I just love that philosophy.
It's all about like having aproblem, you know, coming up
with a solution and then tryingthat solution and if that
solution doesn't work, you know,going back like why.
Yeah.
And you know, I think that thatis a great way to think about
(41:00):
creativity because your problemcould be, I want to make this
pretty picture.
I don't know how or it could be,I have this like really
important bad thing happening.
How do I make it fixed?
Yeah.
Or like you think you're solvingone problem for a client or
customer or student or whateverit is.
Um, and you're actually, theproblem you are trying to solve
(41:22):
is not the problem they'recoming to you with.
And maybe they're notarticulating it.
So, yeah, because you, and Ithink this is like one of the
tenets of, of actually designedthinking is like getting to the
bottom of like what is theactual problem you're trying to
solve.
Yeah.
So I love that.
Um, so where can people findyou?
Well listen, you people inpodcast land are interested in
(41:46):
learning how to sew your ownclothes.
Cause let me tell ya, everyone'sgot to wear clothes every year.
Kat (41:51):
That's true.
Sadly, this oppressive societywe live in.
Jennifer (41:55):
You can find me at worksocial.com where we have all
of our classes listed for righthere in Brooklyn.
And sometimes I traveled toteach other places too.
Kat (42:04):
Very cool.
So I will include all of that inthe show notes as long as where
to find you on social media.
Although obviously we've.
Jennifer (42:10):
Workroom Social everywhere.
Luckily I have a weird name.
Kat (42:15):
Okay.
Actually, I'm sorry, I said wewere wrapping up, but can we
talk about where the name camefrom and how you,
Jennifer (42:21):
so I was actually talking to some friends about
this recently because um, youknow, if you have like a sewing
sounding name, you run the riskof other people using that same
name without knowing orwhatever.
So my, the original company namewas going to be Top Stitched or
Top Stitch or something likethat.
(42:41):
I don't know which is uh, justvisible stitching on clothes.
Kat (42:45):
I know that from legally blonde, but that's it.
There you go.
Yeah, that's my reference.
Jennifer (42:50):
And the recommendation to me was do not do that because
you might be faced with, youknow, infringing on someone
else's rights or someone comingin later and infringe on yours.
So I went back to the drawingboard trying to figure out a
name.
And you know, I think sewing andany kind of hobby or creative
endeavor is work.
(43:11):
Right?
And I don't think that worknecessarily needs to be like, it
needs to have a negativeconnotation where it can be a
positive thing.
And we do work in a room.
So I don't know, that's just howthat came together.
But I also wanted to communicatethis idea of building community
and having fun and makingfriends.
So that's where the social partcame in.
(43:32):
I love it.
It's perfect.
Um, I've wondered that for yearsand I never thought to ask you
until now.
So there you go.
Work room Social.
Kat (43:39):
Great.
Um, thank you so much for takingthe time to speak with me today.
Thanks for helping me bring thisto my audience and, um, again,
I'll drop everything in the shownotes, but Jennifer, thanks so
much.
Outro (43:57):
So that's this week's episode of How to Be Creative.
As always, you can find shownotes, including a complete
episode transcript and links toeverything discussed at
howtobecreative.org.
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