Navigating Data Careers: Mental Health, Networking, and Personal Branding with Bethany Lyons

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
So it should be higher quality.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Look, lola, no barking.

(00:48):
Thank you, hello and welcomeback to the podcast.
So we're not having anystudents on this one.
We're actually recording thison a Sunday afternoon.
I guess it's Sunday eveningover in London.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
So we're going to be talking with Bethany Lyons, who,
I mean you're a seasoned dataprofessional at this point, so
you've actually worked forTableau.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
That's a nice way of saying I'm old, I'll take it
Well, I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
so how?

Speaker 2 (01:30):
long have you been working in data for?
Since 2013.
So yeah, about 11 years, gotcha.
Yeah, I started out at Tableau.
Tableau was my first job out ofuniversity, gotcha, I joined it
before anyone knew it was goingto be a thing.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
You've only been working in data three years
longer than me, so we're bothquite seasoned professionals.
At this point, I would say yeahbut I actually had a sales
career before this though, so Ithink I'm, I think I might be
older than you at this point1988.
Okay, I'm 89.
So you got one year on me, yeah, but yeah.

(02:09):
So just why don't you introyourself, kind of give us like
the origin story of yournarrative arc, of what have you
been up to within the analytics?

Speaker 2 (02:18):
space Sure, I guess.
So I was born on.
No, I'm kidding, it was a coldwinter day.
Pardon me.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
I said it was a cold winter day.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
No, I'm just kidding.
So my background originally wasI studied pure math in college
and then realized I needed to dosomething that could get me a
job and that is not pure math.
So then I did a master's inoperational research and that
was actually how I landed my jobat Tableau was because the same

(02:51):
like one of the alumni of myprogram was the very first
consultant at Tableau in Europe,and so he came recruiting in
our pool of of grads.
And that's when I realized likethe the value of the network
that you get with such a degreeis like amazing.
It's like the alumni network issuper powerful.

(03:13):
So, yeah, he came recruiting andwas telling me about this thing
called Tableau and I was likevisualization software sounds
great.
Like I'd spent all of my summerjust building graphs in Excel,
so I felt like the productreally resonated with me like
right out the gates.
And then, yeah, I started outin like pre-sales at Tableau, so

(03:33):
that would be like helpingcustomers do technical
evaluations of the product andmake sure it fits their needs.
Then I did like somepartnership stuff.
So I built out a lot of ourpartner network in Europe, which
is pretty cool because, likethose companies are still going
strong today, and then I movedon to like working with our
largest enterprise accounts andthen moved into product

(03:56):
management.
So I don't know if you guys arefamiliar with Tableau, but like
I, I worked on stuff like LOD,calculations and relationships.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
Those are tricky.
That's tricky to explain.
Level of detail.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
Level of detail.
Calcs yeah, there's.
There's a blog out in the etherlike top 15 LOD expressions.
It has like millions of views.
I wrote that in like 2015.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
Ooh wow, who was the Tableau local user group leader
for like a few years?

Speaker 2 (04:29):
I'm amazed we haven't met before this, you what I'm
amazed we haven't met beforethis at a conference or
something.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
Well, so I have been pretty local to North Carolina.
I met Christopher Scott whoruns the RallyTug Do you know
him?
To North Carolina.
I met Christopher Scott whoruns the?
Rally Tug.
Do you know him?
No, it's funny because heactually just sent me a message.
He wants me to talk about myexperience in the job market
this year.
Oh cool, it is bad right now.
Like you know, I shut down mycareer services training program

(04:59):
because, like, our placementrate dropped below 90% and I was
like I feel bad taking money, Ifeel unethical, or ethically
gray at least, taking money frompeople who don't have a job.
So I was like I'm just gonnaget get out of that space.
Um, but yeah, so he, becauseyou one thing that I'm teaching

(05:20):
my students in the classroom andI don't even think they realize
we're doing this with likesearch engine optimization for
their profile.
So my students are theclassroom and I don't even think
they realize we're doing thiswith like search engine
optimization for their profile.
So my students are activelygetting recruited once they get
their first job or actually, Imean I had one that was like, oh
yeah, I got extremely lucky.
A company reached out to methat's local because they found
me on LinkedIn.
It's like, well, I mean, we,it's not lucky if you like you.

(05:42):
Kind of built, build the rightmouse trap.
Well, I mean, we, it's notlucky if you like you kind of
built, build the right mouthstrap.
You know, yes, we go into likekeyword optimization.
Um, they get to.
They get a project with aconsulting company my company on
there and it really helpsposition them, I think, separate
from 99 of the grads you knowbecause it's greensboro college.

(06:03):
It's tiny, and it's GreensboroCollege.
It's tiny and it's not aprestige brand, it's not Harvard
or anything like that.
But you know, I was askingsomebody this are you familiar
with Maven Analytics?

Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, so I was me and John Paul had like a little
catch up meeting earlier thisweek and I was asking him.
I was like is there anotheranalytics professor that like
has a brand out on LinkedIn?
And maybe the data professor?
But I think he's like more onthe data engineering side.
I think he's over in likeSoutheast Asia, but most
professors just kind of livequietly.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
Quiet lives behind the screen, yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
So yeah, those networks are very, very um
powerful though that sounds likeyou got played in your grad
school yes, that like that was.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
I was very lucky with the, the network that I got out
of grad school.
Um, so, like totally, I I'mtrying to think I've got one job
in my life through recruitersand all other jobs have been
through like network and the onejob that I got through
recruiters did not go well andthe other three were like great,

(07:17):
yeah, well see that's.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
that's something that the reason I started my own
consulting agency is that I hadtwo terrible back-to-back
internships when I was fresh outof my MBA program.
Uh, actually, no, I.
It was a required internshipduring the summer of me, so I
worked full time for threemonths at a company and, um, in

(07:41):
hindsight, I just had really badmanagers.
Like the the, the, the way Ilike to describe the guy, and
it's funny because he reachedout to me.
He might even hear this.
I'm not naming names oranything, but he kind of came
off like Patrick Bateman alittle bit.
He was trying to corporate play.
He made me as uncomfortable inthe interview process as
possible and tried to put me onthe spot.

(08:03):
It's like oh, that's a red flagright there and then and then
the next guy um, he english washis second language and he had a
stutter.
I couldn't understand what hesaid at all.
So he, we had our first meeting.
I did not none, I caught noneof what he was saying.
And then I I came back and Iwas like, is this what you want?
He's like this is the level ofthe.

(08:26):
This, this level of work, iswhat I would expect from a high
school or where I'm from, which,like I'm realizing that's the
horse.
Like I don't.
I don't think I've heard anotherstory that bad from an intern.
Like you have lowerexpectations and and then, like
I just didn't have the socialintelligence to navigate that

(08:47):
situation.
And also, too, like I was verymuch in a scarcity mindset
because the MBA program that Iwent through didn't have as
robust of a network it soundslike yours.
So I was like I felt just luckyto be there to where now
interviewing this year I've hadtwo companies reach out to me

(09:09):
specifically to hire me, butthen I had three other cold
companies that I applied for, soI had five companies that were
on the table.
So then I'm like much moreabundance mindset and also, too,
I feel a little bit weirdtalking about money and finances
, but I think it ties into.
One of the topics we're goingto talk about later is mental

(09:31):
health.
I can live off my passiverevenue streams, so like I don't
even need to work right now.
It's more like I'm doing thisbecause I spent a quarter of the
year last year on a beach inMexico and I got super depressed
.
You know, like you think you'renot a dream right, yeah, yeah,
like I'm 35, I don't feel likeI'm, you know, in my twilight

(09:53):
years like where I just want tolike lay around.
So I'm like it was cool forlike seven days or five days,
but then it's like I felt likeyou feel?
Unproductive.
Yeah, I felt like that movieGroundhog Day, where it was just
like the same thing over and,over and over again.
There was no like stimulationfrom the environment.
You know, I was like a, I waslike a monkey in the zoo.

(10:14):
You know like.
OK like I was just bored out ofmy mind, but yeah, so now I'm
working at the Fresh Market,which is a high-end grocery
store that started in Greensboroand they've got 165 stores now,
so it's a pretty big business.
But it's also cool because it'slike we can talk about bananas
and how much they cost and it'slike, okay, but we're doing, you

(10:37):
know, 50 million in sales ofthat and you're seeing it at
scale, so it's really cool.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
Hey, I just want to make a comment on what point you
made about like prestige of thenetwork and whatever.
I don't want to.
I don't want to come acrosslike I just had a prestigious
network and then it justhappened Like that's something I
worked very actively to build.
So so this week, if I look atmy calendar of what I have going
on in the evenings, I have liketwo meetings in the evenings,

(11:10):
like every night from monday tothursday this week.
So I'm meeting with eight peopleokay and for no reason other
than they contacted me and werelike let's chat, and I was like
that sounds like a great idea,let's do it, why not?
And and're like let's chat andI was like that sounds like a
great idea, let's do it, why not?
And so, like, building networkis something that I it's like.

(11:31):
I do it like a form of exercise, it's, you know, just, it's a
muscle that you have to build.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
Okay, two things.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
First of all, I wasn't implying that you, it was
your network.
No, it's fine.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
I just wanted to clarify for the listeners.
But two, I've got a challengefor you, yeah why don't you
record those episode?
Why don't you record those andstart a podcast?
oh, because I like, maybe, but Ithink, well, because think
about what we've done just now.
Like we had our off air wherewe got to kind of talk and like
name names and be like this iswhat I'm seeing in the industry,
and then we we jump on thepodcast and it's like, okay,

(12:09):
we're.
There's a certain level of likeI'm not going.
I don't want to stir up a bunchof drama.
You know, I'm not like in theyoutube reactionary space, where
that's that's how I get clicks,um, but I'm sure that there are
a lot of things you're learningfrom these people that that are
worth you know because you?
because think about the leverageyou get from a podcast.
This, this podcast gets about athousand downloads every

(12:31):
episode I post right and thensome of them I post them on my,
the podcasting, all theplatforms there, but then also
on YouTube, and then some of theYouTube videos are getting like
tens of thousands of views, solike it's basically, it's going
to add fire.
Yeah, I just had thisconversation with one of my
former business partners who hishis whole thing is.

(12:53):
He's a fractional CEO and hehis goal is to have 150 coffee
chats a year.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
And I'm like it is funny because you saw the, the,
the Google duck that was labeledthe Internet Sensation Playbook
.
He came to me and was like Iwant to do what you're doing
with building the brand.
You know, taking theconversations I'm having and

(13:21):
distilling them down, becausenow we've got well, okay, we're
going to're gonna jump, butbecause I was gonna end the
podcast on ai, but like now I'vegot ai tools, that I I've got
210 episodes.
I can go in and transcribe allof them in ai and then turn them
into articles, I can turn theminto sound bites.
So then it's like I've got likea whole content mill.

(13:41):
That is not because I I don'tthink generative ai is to the
point where you can say make apost for me on LinkedIn.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
That's definitely not .
I would never put my name toanything written by Right.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
But AI is amazing at curating.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
Totally.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
Because it's like reading.
Right.
Synthesizing, so like it canget me 95 percent of the way
there to where I could write anarticle in five minutes and I
could post.
Do you do that at all?
This is a question that I wasactually talking about with him.
Should we write LinkedInarticles?
Does anybody read them?

Speaker 2 (14:19):
I don't do it, but that doesn't mean that we
shouldn't, it's just something Idon't do.
Like I, um, I find that, likethe stuff that gets the like,
traction is inverselyproportional to length.
So like, yeah, you want to, youwant to, I go for like high
volume, like short sound bites,and then, like some of them, go

(14:42):
viral.

Speaker 1 (14:43):
Well, okay.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
Long blogs and like well, you know that kind of
stuff is it's.
We're just in an age wherepeople want to consume like
really dense content.
That's my perspective on it.

Speaker 1 (14:59):
Okay, my perspective is that that is true and the
opposite is true.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
You're sounding like Rory Sutherland.
Now Go on.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
We're getting into dialectics here, which is what I
learned in PBT therapy.
I think it's like a U-shapeddistribution.
Yeah, it's like what you coulddo, like a layer of
sophistication could be, andthis has been my experience.
So, like I had a meetup onthursday.
Like my intern came into townand I just posted on linkedin.

(15:28):
People showed up.
I've never met before but theyhad listened to me talk for 200
hours, like in their car whilethey're working out, because,
right, but you, you can havethose long-form content where
people get to know you.
They get to like yeah, I meanwhat my opinions now have
changed quite a bit.
When I started this podcast fouror five years ago, I'm a lot,

(15:49):
you know, like a lot of myassumptions were wrong.
But, that being said, likepeople actually like seeing that
evolution, I think, and thenthey also will be like yeah, in
episode 23, around 30 minutes in, you said this I think you're
right, but you haven'tconsidered this variable, which
is crazy to think about.
But, that being said, it's likeyou can have that long form

(16:12):
content but then the short soundbites and snippets, you get
them into the funnel and thenyou nurture that through the
long form stuff.
Yeah, I mean that's more,that's more like a marketing
funnel.
It is, but like I don't know, Imean it could be something
valuable for you.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
I think it probably is.
I think I haven't figured outwhat I'm marketing yet.
Well, what are the topics?

Speaker 1 (16:36):
you're talking about in these networking?

Speaker 2 (16:39):
I know, At the moment I have this deep held
conviction that the mostvaluable asset you can build is
your social capital.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
Your network is your network.

Speaker 2 (16:54):
Pardon me.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
What's the saying?

Speaker 2 (16:57):
Here's the sound bite your network is your network.
It's a little.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
Gary V-esque, it's not really.

Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yeah, I don't know.
I'm like I need to invest insocial capital it.
I don't know like I'm like Ineed to invest in social capital
, but I don't know what I'mgoing to spend it on.
And it's like when I was a kidI I was like I know that I need
to save money, but I don't knowwhat I'm going to spend it on.
So I would like I spent all myteen years like working at dairy
queen, saving up money yeah,yeah, and I'm like, just, I was

(17:24):
like, I'm somebody who's justlike bank, put, put, put
something in the bank for arainy day Like I don't know, and
that ended up paying off, likeI was able to get through
university with no dad, and soon Good for you.
I was about to say I'm still, Idon't live in America, though,
so it's different, like our feesaren't the same in Canada or in

(17:47):
the UK.
But, yeah, like I have thatsame mindset as I did when I was
a kid.
Just now, I'm like no the thing, this bank is social capital
and I haven't figured out whatI'm going to spend it on, but I
do believe that, like, thefuture of entrepreneurship is
content creators and people whocan build an audience are like

(18:08):
the next CEOs, because it's andI did work for like my last job
was for an early stage startupand we built I was the chief
product officer.
We built like Excel for big data.
It was an awesome product.
But at the end of the day I waslike, oh, we built a product
but we haven't built adistribution channel and like,

(18:29):
what good is a product thatnobody knows about?
You need to have thatdistribution channel first and
then build the product that youraudience wants, rather than
building a product than tryingto find an audience for it.
So I think that's like thevalue in building up.

Speaker 1 (18:45):
So you're the distribution.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
It's like, yes, I'm like I'm building a distribution
channel for something that Idon't yet know what it's going
to be, but like I'm.
My background is like I didn'tyeah, I kind of talked about
Tableau, but then yeah, I'vespent the last five years in
product management and buildingproducts and I've realized that
if you want to do anythinguseful in products, you need to
know how to build distributionchannels as well.
So it's actually being acontent person is.
Is the new like yeah, beinglike a yeah, being being

(19:17):
somebody who builds anddistributes content is the new
way to like found companies, Ithink.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
Yeah, well, I mean, you could keep it vague, like
what's interesting is, like thehow to get an analytics job
title of this podcast.
Right, it's such a wideumbrella because we could talk
about resumes, we could talkabout LinkedIn, we could talk
about interviewing and we couldtalk about, you know, getting
the job we talked about.
Now, like there's so manytopics that, because what's
coming to mind and you, you cancompletely throw this in the

(19:44):
trash if you want, but like what?
If you called it like dataculture or something like that
called what data culture thelike the podcast, the
theoretical podcast, oh thetheoretical podcast that you're
convincing me to start.

Speaker 2 (19:55):
Yes, if, if I do, you'll be my first guest um yeah
yeah, I mean that that's.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
That is.
An interesting thought, though,of the future is because I was
thinking about this as itrelates to AI, and it's like AI
is going to going to affectwhite collar jobs more so than
blue collar jobs, like what isgoing to keep me buoyant in my
career, moving forward, and Ithink it's the relationships.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
Totally.
Yeah, it's the network and likebecause also, ai is one of the
things that is making getting ajob the traditional way so hard,
because now everybody has thesetools help you tweak your

(20:41):
resume so that you can stand out, and it's like, yeah, but
everybody else is doing that andso it just moves the baseline.
It's like the baseline is nowyou have to use the AI tool.

Speaker 1 (20:52):
But, like it's not helping you stand out.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
It's helping you not get left behind Right, and so
actually if you want to standout, you have to like get a move
around the process and figureout, like how do I get a?

Speaker 1 (21:09):
job without submitting a CV.
Okay, well, this is a perfectsegue into the next topic I
wanted to ask you about, whichis LinkedIn.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
So what's going on with that?

Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah, what's going on ?

Speaker 1 (21:20):
Dumpster fire.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
Pardon me.

Speaker 1 (21:22):
So LinkedIn seems like a dumpster fire right now.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
I like see, I don't see the dumpster fire because
I've like highly curated my feed.
Yeah, I like I only like likereally high quality content, so
my feed is like super highquality, and so the dumpster
fire isn't so visible to me.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah, it's more so like I see a lot of like really
low IQ posts from people thatare like oh, like the big
influencers, yeah, yeah.
And it's like I don't know.
I have mixed feelings becauseyou know, some of them have been
on the podcast and it's like Idon't want to disparage them.
What seems to happen is thatit's almost like a playbook, in

(22:04):
that they get, they create afollowing while they're getting
their job, then they get theirjob and they get more of a
following and then they quittheir job and become an
influencer.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
And then they tell everyone you should become an
influencer.
I think the influencers thatyou should ignore are the ones
that are like at just they don'thave.
They don't have anything totalk about except being an
influencer.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yeah, it's like circular logic it is circular
logic.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
It's like I know you don't actually want your 100,000
followers to become aninfluencer, because then they'll
drown you out.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
Right.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
Like I like following people who are influencers
because they have something tosay.
Like Leah Tarrin in likeproduct-led growth, or like
Anthony Pieri in like productmarketing, or, like you know,
they're influencers with contentand something, an opinion about
something.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
Well, yeah, so can I ask?
I mean and you probably don'tknow this off the top of your
head but how much engagement arethey getting on average, would
you say?

Speaker 2 (23:16):
The people that I've just mentioned.

Speaker 1 (23:17):
Yeah, like the, because what I've noticed is
that it seems like the peoplewho like so.
Are you familiar with SolomonKahn?

Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
So I just joined his mentorship program, and what's
crazy is that-.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
I signed up as well.
Oh, we're going to be in ittogether.
Nice, I think so.
That's so funny Well he's oneof the most high quality people
I think like-.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yeah, and it's funny because I have double the amount
of followers than he does.
And I think like, yeah, andit's funny because I have double
the amount of followers than hedoes.
Yeah, and I have no business.
Why would you listen to me?
He was like the vp of nielsenand and he's, you know, got this
like pedigree and like he'salso super humble and nice.
Like it's a part of this, I'mpublished on linkedin so I have

(24:01):
like probably 15 to 20,000people take my courses a month.
So, like you know, that leadsto them just like following me
to learn more about, you know,tools and analytics and stuff
like that.
But so there's like kind of astructural thing in my favor,
but like I think that, like most, most people getting a job

(24:21):
don't even know what to look for.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
Right.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
Because, like they don't, they don't it's too
sophisticated for to resonatewith them Because they're.
Because, like, what I'm seeingis like here are the top three
things that you should do to geta job.
That's going to get 500engagements versus, like a very
nuanced story from Solomon abouthow he blew up his first
internship and it led to aleadership position.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
That's getting a hundred engagements.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
And it's funny because it's like I don't know,
I mean, is that going to levelout in time?
Like, because they like stay inthat lane of like entry level
people, they, they, they likestay in that lane of like
entry-level people, um, but it'slike they're, every year or day
that goes by, they're gettingmore and more irrelevant because
they aren't close to thatprocess.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
They're close to that process totally right yeah,
they'll get replaced by somebodyelse who has the same playbook
yeah, and then I love that we'rehaving this conversation
because I have I have wonderedbefore like why does solomon can
not have like 50 000 followers?

Speaker 1 (25:30):
I find him so interesting, like everything he
puts out is like super highquality it's funny because, like
the conversation that I hadwith gary the fractional ceo,
like that internet sensationplaybook is going to go after
the solomons of the world, likewe're potentially going to
monetize that.
Because, like I have a studentI think it was actually in the

(25:52):
last podcast episode who I thinkit's funny because I think he's
the smartest student I've hadso far.
He's smarter than I am, buthe's like young and you know
just not I don't want to saynaive, he's a little unpolished,
he's a senior in college nowand he studied the Instagram
algorithm to build up like ameme account.

(26:15):
So, he has an interest in that.
And what I just pitched him onis like I'm just leaving
sponsorship money on the tablefor the podcast.
And it's funny because, likethose of you who are listening
to this, I'm sorry if we moneyon the table for the podcast.
And it's funny because, likethose of you who are listening
to this, I'm sorry if we'regoing to start incorporating ads
, but the caveat being, we canstudy our, our, monitor our

(26:36):
monetization through that and wecan pull it on the podcast and
say, hey, here's like what.
What Craig has told me is thatyou need to have like a hashtag
and you need to postconsistently on that topic on a
day.
So like I think I want tobranch out into talking about
mental health, because there'san a men's health mental, like a

(26:57):
mental health crisis for menthat, for whatever reason, I
don't hear very much good adviceabout that.
And there's not, there's notreally, like you know, there's
no, mr Rogers, there's no goodrole model, I feel like for many
.
So like maybe that's a littlepresumptuous and like I'm
delusional and like maybe I canbe that role model maybe not for

(27:17):
everybody, but for people inthe analytics space.
But like hashtag mental healthMonday and having that over and
over again.
The algorithm on linkedin isgoing to recognize that.
Yeah, and it's going to.
Um, if I keep it in that seriesand let's say I do it for six
months on mondays I have a postabout that it's going to like

(27:38):
it's going to probably get somedecent, and then it's.
The theory is that it's goingto exponentially get more
traction and then people will goback and then they'll be
promoted.
The other hashtags because it'sgoing to exponentially get more
traction and then people willgo back and then they'll be
promoted.
The other hashtags because it'slike you got to think about the
game that's being played.
Linkedin's intention is to geteyeballs on the site and if I'm
creating, like craig was sayingthat there's like a, there's a

(28:01):
tier of users on there that arelike like Elon Musk on Twitter,
of course he's going to elevatehis own, his own posts, but it's
also in the best interest ofthe company to elevate certain
people because you know they get, they get traction in the
algorithm and they built anaudience.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
So it's almost like a real effect.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
Right, it's funny because this is.
I feel like we're going alittle bit down a rabbit hole
about LinkedIn.
Because I'm not sure it isfunny because in my career
services program I turned liketwo or three of my students into
influencers.
And it's funny because I thinksome of them are actually
getting sponsorship deals nowand on top of working in
analytics job.

Speaker 2 (28:41):
It's amazing.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
But it's funny because it's like it's all play
and I think understanding howthe algorithm works is, I mean,
how to get an analytics job.
Analytics is a part of business, so it's like within kind of
the pale of what I want to talkabout on this podcast.
But really, realistically,those my the people listening to

(29:07):
this are they don't need tobecome influencers, they just
need to optimize their linkedin.
So they need to get the rightkeywords, they need to get a
project on there.
Uh, preferably like what we didis um, craig came on the
podcast last week and he'sinterested in potentially
getting into the banking sector.
So, um, the one of the v atCitibank has been following me

(29:28):
for years and I was like oh, Igot a student that wants to get
into the banking sector.
Do you want to come in?
You guys can network for alittle bit.
We can do an interview question, give him feedback from your
perspective on that, and thenalso a portfolio review.
We recorded that portfolioreview and he put it in his
project section within hisLinkedIn profile.

(29:50):
So actually, let me pull that upthat's brilliant right, yeah,
and it's funny because, um, Idon't know I.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
I think another thing that's really good for getting
a job is putting out tutorialson like when you learn something
, just make a recording of itand throw it out in a post.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
Right, like that goes a long way.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
It starts building your brand as like an expert, or
like at least a person who canlearn and teach others as like
an expert, or like at least aperson who can learn and teach
others.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
Well, because you know what's funny is that.
I mean what?
What's the basic like hiringprocess?
For most companies it's it'sthree phases, right?
It's phone screening,behavioral, technical interview.
If you have a video of youexplaining a project, that is,
functionally speaking, the sameas a phone screening.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
Totally.

Speaker 1 (30:46):
But yeah, so here's.
Actually just took this pictureof Craig yesterday.
I got my lights in there.
I think it looks short, but ifyou come down you can see he's
added.
Marketing analyst projectmanager for my company.
He had an internship with thisconstruction company, um, and

(31:07):
then under his where is it soprojects he I guess he hasn't
uploaded the video of himpresenting his project to the vp
, but this is what we worked inclass last semester okay
actually no, this is.
This is from two semesters ago.
This is from last semester.
So when you think about all theexperience he has and he's

(31:30):
currently a junior, he's aboutto be a senior in like 15 days
when the semester starts.

Speaker 2 (31:36):
Amazing.

Speaker 1 (31:37):
So yeah, so, like what we did in my capstone
course, is I connected with theexecutive director of this.
It's called cancer culture andthey like raise awareness, for I
think it's breast cancer mainlyyeah, we did a whole social
listening project and it's likethat's he's got multiple stories

(31:57):
he can pull out of that yeah,but I think to this point on the
hiring process.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
so I get a lot of people reaching out to me being
like, hey, do you know, like anentry level analyst to go is
like there's going to be likethis CV, like apply online with
your resume process thatcontinues for a while but like
nobody's actually using it.
It's just like candidates likeautomate, like automating the

(32:39):
submission of their CV to like100 companies, and then the
hiring managers get so many thatthey're just like I don't even
want to read these.
I'm going to just go pingsomebody that I know who has a
big network of analysts and askthem to like make me a
recommendation and then they'regoing to go with that instead of
like any of the stuff that cameinbound.
So like.

(33:01):
That's why I say like yeah,like your resume is important,
but like, instead of optimizingyour resume, like optimize for
like not needing it.

Speaker 1 (33:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
And like you can do that by just becoming somebody
that puts out educationalcontent online, and then you get
known and then you're top ofmind and I think there's there's
something to the cadence of itas well, because it's like
people's memories are very short, so you might be the most
awesome like analyst, but likeif you haven't been in my feed

(33:39):
for like three months, likeyou're just not top of mind, so
just posting something regularlyso that you're like not top of
mind, right, so just postingsomething regularly so that
you're like always top of mind.
Then, like somebody's gonna getan, an email from a hiring
manager saying, do you knowanyone?
Then they can say, oh yeah,like there's this guy that keeps
showing up in my feed, or thisgirl or you know whatever.
Um, that's the way I would goabout.

(34:00):
It is like make yourself top ofmind as an expert in something.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
Yeah, Well, it's um.
Are you familiar with the con,the concept or the term vector
force?

Speaker 2 (34:14):
Uh, I am not, but you have used it in our pre-call.
Okay, that's funny.
You should pause me.

Speaker 1 (34:21):
Like I don't know what you're talking about.
You're you're speakinggibberish which, like I realize
I'm a very online person, kindof like JD Vance.
I think that's what thecriticism he's getting right now
.
So Kevin Kelly is like an earlyinternet evangelist and he
wrote a blog in early internetdays called A Thousand True Fans

(34:44):
and he was talking about, ifyou can get a thousand people
who give you a hundred dollars,right then you know, like you
can, that's a hundred thousanddollars, right there.
You can live off of that.
Um, but he was also talkingabout I think in that article
maybe it was an interview that Iheard with him about like a
vector force.
You like I, I have positionedmyself as a vector force, so I

(35:06):
have a ton of people who wantanalytics jobs and then I also
know a lot of people who needanalytics.

Speaker 2 (35:12):
You're a marketplace.

Speaker 1 (35:14):
Essentially.
Yeah, it's weird because itsounds a little bit grandiose to
say that, but it's like it'strue though.

Speaker 2 (35:24):
And you are a marketplace.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
Yeah, and there's money there.
I mean I feel weird.
I think I should be a littlebit more transparent about money
.
But I probably made about$350,000 through LinkedIn over
the years, through the courses,through selling my own stuff
through it, and, yeah, it's likeI see the economic value of it
and it's I.

(35:48):
I made the active decision tostop selling it because I feel
like it cheapened myself in someway.
You know, I like that social.
It's like the.
Do you want to cash out now?
Because, like, if I were, if acompany reached out to me and
said all right, I'll do this forfive thousand dollars, I'll
find you a student and I'll betthem or I can, can just, you
know, connect them, and thenI've got a strong relationship.

Speaker 2 (36:09):
You've got like social capital that you're
betting, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:12):
So it's like a, it's like a trade-off, of like do I
want to optimize for now or do Iwant to try to build?
You know, cause it's?
it's weird, working a full-timejob now and I will say this a
good corporate culture is that Ifeel like I'm back in college
right and and that that was likea complete paradigm shift of

(36:33):
mine, because I got for years Itold myself I'm unemployable,
I'm professionally feral likeI'm not, I'm not going to be
able to work a full-time job andit's weird, I'm like I enjoy
this and I hate that aboutmyself on some level, but it's
like no, I just need to updatethat script or that narrative in
my mind about, well, I'mextremely financially stable,

(36:53):
like I'm living off of about 50%of what I bring home each month
, and it's like one way to framethat up is like every month I
work, I buy myself an extramonth of runway if I wanted to
pull the plug and go and launchanother business which is so
much more responsible than likeI had no business starting a
consulting agency back in 2017.

(37:15):
I turned my last internship intomy first consulting client and
I would just like I will saythis I'm realizing there's a lot
of skills that I didn't evenrealize I had because, like I
would, I got real used toambiguity.
Like I would pitch clients toknow about 80% of what I was
talking about and had to go andfill in the other 20%, and I had
to do that over and over andover again, and if I didn't do

(37:37):
it, I didn't get paid.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
I didn't you know um.
You can't know everything upfront, like no, and it's like.

Speaker 1 (37:44):
It's like it's there's like a almost, like a
political skill of like how tohandle that Cause.
You don't want to say that youdon't know it, but you also
don't want to say that you doknow it.
So it's like oh, I can lookinto that you know or like like
it's, it's.

Speaker 2 (37:58):
Oh, I'll figure it out.
This is actually the master.
The master skill of my boss umis like he has like utmost
confidence in his ability tofigure stuff out, and so he
sells stuff all the time that helike we don't know how to
deliver, but like I shouldn'tsay this, but like a hundred

(38:21):
percent of the time he's likeknows how to figure it out, and
it's just like yeah, well, Imean like comes through that
like this is a problem I cansolve.

Speaker 1 (38:32):
Yes, like well, I mean, let's, let's think through
what's the upside and thedownside of that.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
The downside to that is that you get stuck with the
projects that you can't deliveron.
The upside is that you get alot more business than you know.
I think the key is you have tohave the capability Like,
because there's a lot of idiotsthat have like utmost confidence
but don't have the capabilityto back it up.
The reason I work for this guyis because he has the capability

(39:02):
to back it up.
He's like one of the besttechnical people I've ever met
in my life.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
Oh, that's cool.
See, it's funny because I'm nota very technical person.
I actually outsource most of mylike coding work, or at least I
have okay, okay, yeah, so it'slike I could go, and I can go
and find somebody who can figureit out for me and pay yeah,
yeah, yeah, because you're amarketplace, yeah I guess that's
true.
I that's.
That is an interesting way ofthinking about it.
Yeah, I guess that's true.
That is an interesting way ofthinking about it.

Speaker 2 (39:25):
You connect demand and supply.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
Yeah, I've hired a few people through Upwork just
to work on consultingengagements.
But now it's like I've got afriend that's getting a PhD in
machine learning at Georgia Techfor finance and it's like I can
just go tap him and say hey,can you do this for me If he's
got time for it yeah I mean,he's way more sophisticated with

(39:49):
um like his, just the technicalside.
It actually makes me think ofthis story.
So when I was in plateau carmellast year, I was at a coffee
shop and this guy came up to meand was like hey, I took course.
And it turns out that he was aguy that was working as a
consultant for formula one,building out like he built out,

(40:10):
an interface that like you know,how they talk to their through
their like walkie talkies orwhatever.
It's not a walkie talkie, it'sa headset, yeah.
They're not like five-year-oldchildren being like hey, so he
built out a system that took allof that speech and turned it
into text and it was streamingdown so people could, like make

(40:30):
sense of what was going on inreal time.
But yeah, but that's crazybecause it's like there are
people out there, once you startgetting more traction, like I'm
sure that there's more peoplein my network that could solve
problems for me that I don'teven know about right now.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
Right, totally yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
So, yeah, there's a benefit to building out, I guess
, a following, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (40:55):
If you want to be a marketplace.
Having a following is like thatis the best way to build a
marketplace.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
Yeah Well, because a part of me is like am I just
doing this for my own ego Cause?
It's like I'm internet famous.
It's so funny when I meetpeople and they're intimidated
by me because they're like wow,I don't know.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
What you have a lot of followers.

Speaker 1 (41:20):
Yeah, I need more, though I'm working on it.
So if you're, interested, weI'm open to like doing writing
sessions with you If you, if youwanted to like, sit down and be
like you know what is your core.
What is your core thing?
Break it down into like five toseven subtopics, and then
that's your, your cadence.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
Yeah, I mean I.

Speaker 1 (41:40):
there is no science behind anything that I do, I can
tell you've got a bright mindand you're like on it because of
the posts, because you saidit's all stream of consciousness
for you.
It is.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
I literally just like I have a thought and I'm like
I'll share that.
Like there is no science behind.
Like I've got 17,000 followersthrough.
Like zero science.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
Well, I mean, that is a sign, I think, that like
where could it be, if youactually like?

Speaker 2 (42:07):
If I actually applied science to it.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
Yes, yeah, it's not even science, like it's just a
systems thinking approach to it.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:17):
It's almost like therapy in a way.
You know, it's like if you puta structure behind it, like you
can think, you can take thethemes that that you're kind of
working on in your brain andthen put them down on paper.
It's almost like a form ofjournaling, in a way.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (42:35):
But on that note, are you ready?
Do you have any other thoughtson LinkedIn or do you want to
dive into the topic of mentalhealth?

Speaker 2 (42:42):
Let's dive into the topic of mental health.
All right, because this is howwe connected right Cause you
yeah, Cause you, I think you youposted about bipolar.
I did yes, cause I have bipolar.
I was diagnosed in 2020, aboutfour years ago and it was like
totally it was a very workrelated incident as well, like

(43:07):
the way that I got.
I actually originally thought Ihad like ADHD and my husband's
a doctor and I was like runningin circles and just telling him
like I have like sudden onsetADHD.
I don't know what's going on, Ican't read a paragraph Like I.
Just I literally lost theability to read and I was
running like I had like thisinsane amount of like unbounded

(43:28):
energy and was just transportingmy body like 30 kilometers a
day, like on foot.
It's like mania and couldn'tconcentrate on anything.
And two days later I ended upsending this insane email to
Adam Solipski.
If anybody knows him, he's theguy who was the most recent CEO

(43:50):
of AWS.
He's like one of the mostpowerful men in business.
He was my CEO at that time atTableau.
And so I sent him this likecrazy email where I was like it
was the middle of the U Spresidential election and I was
like, hey, there's this guy inour German team, Timo, and we

(44:13):
need to make him American sothat he can run for president.
And so I sent this email toliterally one of the most
powerful men in business, Likewe need to make my colleague
American, Run against Trump.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
That's amazing.
Did you respond?

Speaker 2 (44:34):
No, I responded about 16 times because I then had
like racing thoughts and I thenreplied to myself and cc'd a
whole bunch more people.
By the time this email threadwas done, I had cc'd a bunch of
people in the leadership team.

(44:55):
I added my partner, my oldroommate, some friends, a random
neuroscientist who was quotedin a book I was reading.
It was just the most randomcollection of people and there
was about 16 threads of mereplying to myself and the HR
team ended up being like okay,nobody's allowed to talk about

(45:17):
this, this is a mental healthcrisis.
And then my husband basicallytricked me into going to the
hospital.
He was like forget what I saidtwo days ago.
We need, we're just going tolike take this precautionary
measure.
And I don't know.
He somehow tricked me intogoing into the hospital and I
ended up being like an inmatefor a month, like in a lockup

(45:39):
unit.
They were like you are severelymanic.
And what was crazy was therewere people who came in with
like schizophrenia, suicideattempts, like really severe
conditions, sometimes both andthey were like admitted and
discharged in like less timethan I was.
I was still there dancing, likeI just danced for a month

(45:59):
around a psych ward like a crazyum so, yeah, because you're
you're.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
this happened in the in england.
So, yeah, I imagine it'sdifferent because, like, the
whole history of mental healthin this country is fast, like in
in america is interestingbecause there was an experiment,
I think in the 70s, where theyadmitted grad students into a
psych ward and then theycouldn't get out, so that was

(46:32):
like a massive shift, andbecause what's unfortunate is a
lot of the homeless population.
They're just mentally ill andthere's just no place for them
in our society, which it's weird.

Speaker 2 (46:38):
I hung out with them, I was in a public hospital, so
I was with a lot of homelesspeople for that month and I
think, you know, one of the mosthumbling moments of my life was
like.
At the time I didn't thinkanything of it, but I think back
to it now and like whenever I,if I feel my head getting big, I

(47:00):
remember this moment and itbrings me back down to earth.
I remember this moment andbrings me back down to earth.
But there was this woman, tina,and she was I think she'd
smoked for 69 out of her 70years on earth and she was like
just laying on the couch andvery, very overweight.

(47:22):
And she says to me like as I'mdancing around, she's like
haven't you got any other moves?
Wow that's amazing and I'm likeI am being insulted.
Yeah, like no, I don't have anyother moves.

Speaker 1 (47:50):
Well, yeah, I mean, that's gotta be such a surreal
experience of like losing agency.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
Like, yeah, but the thing is, you don't lose.
You lose agency, but you, like,don't have insight into the
fact that you've lost agency,and so the feeling of mania is
actually very similar to beingon like a drug trip right?
no, I was talking about um beinginstitutionalized oh, yeah,

(48:18):
yeah you were aware of thatright I, I was, but like I just
made up a story about how I waslike, yeah, I'm here because I'm
an undercover agent, like, andI'm I'm like doing this research
into the state of mental health, like system, and then I'm
gonna go and like publish it inthe BBC like I made up.

(48:40):
I had a great time when I wasthere because I fabricated so
many stories in my mind aboutwhy I was there and why it was
like the right place for me tobe at that time.
Like it was horrible for myfamily, it was horrible for my
friends.
They were all very concernedbut I had like no concern.
When you lose your mind, you'relike not worried.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
Well, what's interesting is, in a way, I
don't want to.
This might sound off, but letme finish the thought.
You're kind of lucky that it'snot functional for you Because,
like, for example, kanye West, alot of his musical insights
come from the mania and he'slike, built so like because I

(49:23):
saw him on Joe Rogan and he wastalking about how I don't want
to get on this medicationbecause then I lose my muse.
Oh, totally Because there's a Ithink there's a fascinating
connection between creativityand mental illness.
Oh, there's something there,Without a doubt.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
Yeah, yeah, I was like in the lead up to like it's
a, you know it's a curve.
Um, it's kind of a invertedu-shaped curve where, like when
you're on the way up, you it'samazing, right, really creative.
And, yeah, just, I think partof it is like mania, hypomania,
let's call it is a feeling ofgreat disinhibition, and when

(50:03):
you lose your inhibition, itallows you to be a lot more
creative.
Because if you think about, like, what stops people from being
creative, it's like they shootdown their own ideas before
they've had a chance toformulate, whereas, like, if
you're in the state of likeextreme disinhibition, you stop
shooting down your ideas and sothey just like flow freely and
you have more of them, but thenit reaches a point where you've

(50:27):
like lost your mind and then youare going down the earth and I
had hit that other, that otherend.
Um, but in the lead up to thisperiod I was writing like 16
pages a day, like just prose forLike.
So yeah, that's so.

Speaker 1 (50:47):
Do you have bipolar one?

Speaker 2 (50:48):
then it's I don't know Cause in the UK we don't
have that distinction.
Okay, it's just have bipolar oryou don't.
But I have the kind where Ihave like severe mania, so I
think that's bipolar one, butyeah bipolar.

Speaker 1 (51:03):
bipolar one is more on the mania side.
Bipolar two is more on thedepression side.
Yeah, then think that's bipolarone.
But yeah, bipolar bipolar oneis more on the mania side,
bipolar two is more on thedepression side.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
Yeah, then I would have bipolar one.

Speaker 1 (51:10):
Yeah, because, yeah, like I, I think I've talked
about this in a LinkedIn post.
I don't think I've talked abouton the podcast yet, but I'm
coming out of the most severedepression that I've had in my
entire life and it's weirdbecause on all appearances, I
would have made it Like I wasliving in Mexico off my passive

(51:30):
revenue stream.
I had an Airbnb that I rentedfor three months that was two
blocks from the beach, rooftoppool, you know, like amazing
food.
The thing about Plato Carmen isthat it's a digital nomad hub.
So like I got plugged into thatsocial scene immediately for

(51:52):
other people looking to meetpeople like me.
So I felt like almost like Iwas like back in undergrad or
college again or it's likesocial and fun and people were
available to where, like, as youknow, as as as you get older,
people become less, and like Iwas.
I was joking with gary um whenI saw him yesterday of I'm like
jealous of my friend ryan's baby, because he's the baby she

(52:15):
stole my friend away from melike I don't see him anymore you
know, I mean, um, but it's likeyou grow up and you have less.
You have less free time.
But what's weird is that youknow, while that happening, I
was losing traction on mybusiness.

Speaker 2 (52:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:31):
You know, because part of how I was growing that
business was like organicin-person networking.
But, to be quite honest, though, I was like just burnt out on
consulting.
I just didn't want to do thatanymore.
Be quite honest, though, I waslike just burnt out on on
consulting.
I just didn't want to do thatanymore.
So, like I tried to pivot intodata literacy training.
That got no traction on it.

(52:53):
I mean, I got a few.
I had had people reaching outto me to like hire me as a
contractor to come train theircompany, but that didn't really
pan out and it was like I don'tknow, I don't.
I didn't really pan out.
It was like I don't know, Idon't.
I didn't really want to be acontractor.
I wanted to be more of like abusiness owner and provide a
service offering.
Um, so, around march, I decidedto shut down the business and

(53:17):
then I enrolled in a six-weekoutpatient dialectical
behavioral therapy, like in agroup setting, and it was
interesting because, yeah, I sawpeople who were severely
mentally ill and chronically solike it was really.
It was so hard.
I felt like I was, like I hadsevere.
I just I felt like I wasjumping out of my skin because,

(53:39):
like you know, eight hours in aor six hours a day, you sit down
and talk about your issues andlike for me it was like the
failure and loss of identity ofbeing an entrepreneur and it was
weird, um and like.
What I kind of landed on waslike this, this idea of like,
surrender, like you just it's,it's like you let go of, because

(54:00):
a lot of that was just like egodriven, but like, once you let
go, and there's this conceptcalled radical acceptance of
like you just have to acceptwhat's going on right now and
you know, I live a lot of mylike time in my mind thinking
about what could be in thefuture and I think that's good.
But I think you need to have agood ratio of like what is

(54:23):
actually happening now.
Yeah, To where?
Like you know, I'm starting anagency when I was like 26 years
old and had no experience orskills.
It's like not what I would tellmy students to go do.
Like you should probably getwork for a while and learn this
and then start it.
But you know I'm more like a lot.

(54:43):
It's interesting because mostof the friends that I track seem
to be on the opposite end ofthe spectrum of like they they
wish they had.
You know, more confidence.
Like I kind of tread the lineof like delusions of grandeur or
like being like too into myself, and I mean part of that
probably stems back from likeyou know, I was the first born
male in my family.

(55:04):
I was adored and you know, likeall of that.
But the the getting back to thedialectical behavior therapy,
like that really it sucked and Ifelt like I wanted to quit
every day for the first twoweeks.
But then it was like weirdbecause I started to kind of
crave it.
Like you would sit down, theway they'd structure the day you

(55:25):
check in they have like a it'salmost like what you see in the
movies where it's like a circleand you sit down and you talk
through your day and then it'slike, um, you'd have to ask
permission, like hey, can I giveyou a compliment or can I give
you feedback on that?
Um, and it's almost like you're.
it's so antithetical to Americanculture because it's group

(55:47):
based to where almost all myfriends are entrepreneurs and
we're all in our own lane, andI've kind of realized, like how
lonely I've been because I'vejust been like doing my own
thing.
I have friends and I see them,but you know, like it's weird
that, working in a corporationthat has a good culture, I

(56:08):
almost feel like I'm part of atribe and I get to say the same,
I see the same people, and it'svery therapeutic for me, which
is so weird.
Like if you, if we could goback four months, I would be
like that is a crazy thought,but it's true though.
Like it really going throughthat and like really like
breaking down all of theseassumptions I had, has been, has

(56:31):
been really, really valuablefor me, and I feel like I'm
switched from much more of ascarcity mindset to much more of
a um, abundance mindset andjust but I mean, that was my job
for six weeks was to.
I need to get my mental healthsorted out.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
I'm also yeah, and it's one of the hardest things
that you can ever do in life.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
But I mean, what an investment, though, right.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
It is.
It's a very good investment,yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
So, yeah.
But yeah, I mean it's and I I'mhesitant to like post more about
it because you're right, likein one of the posts that I saw,
like it's there's a stigmaaround it and I think that's
totally bullshit.
And you know, kind of gettingback to that frame of scarcity

(57:18):
versus abundance, like, if, like, I went through this experience
and if I could talk about it,it actually might, instead of be
a hindrance to me and I itmight actually endear me or,
like you know, help other peopleand help like kind of grow that
like marketplace idea that youyou keep kind of harping back to
yeah, I so I'm very publicabout, like, my condition, um,

(57:41):
and I've actually never feltstigma or judgment, and it might
just be because I have too manydelusions of grandeur to pick
up on the stigma, but thegeneral sentiment that I've got
from people is one of acceptanceand gratitude, because it helps

(58:04):
them understand something thatthey maybe have friends and
family have experienced, um, andso it gives them like a window
of insight into their friends orfamily.

Speaker 2 (58:16):
Um, like other people with the condition often reach
out to me and are like, oh, youknow, I feel so understood now,
like let's have a conversation.
So.
I've found only positive thingscome from it and, like my boss
at my last two companies, likemy employers, were both very
grateful that I was transparentabout it.

(58:37):
It just I don't know.
It's just easier when peopleunderstand what's going on.
So, yeah, I think it'severybody's going understand
what's going on.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
So yeah, I think it's .

Speaker 2 (58:48):
Everybody's going to have a different experience.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
Yeah, that's true.
Well, I mean it also shows thatyou're proactive, active about
kind of keeping, taking care ofyourself, which I think is
really valuable I try to be yeah, actually sorry.
I had to go and find my uh, mycharger.
I'm so glad.

(59:11):
So, those of you who are goingto be listening to this, I'm in
my parents house dog sitting, souh, luckily the dogs haven't
been acting up, which is nice,so, uh, cool.
But yeah, I also like one thingwe kind of talked about in like
the uh pre-interview chat was Ithink there's like systemic bias

(59:37):
against men within therapy.
Is that because one-on-onetherapy doesn't really work for
me?
Um, and I feel like most menare probably better off joining
like a jujitsu gym where theyget to do something physical.
Um, I think that they're doingthis in nordic countries where,
like they have a village andthen they just have a shed with

(59:59):
work tools and men will work onsomething together and that's
how they bond Right.
Like women will talk and lookat each other.
Men are usually on the sameside of the table looking at
something, which I think it'slike it's a very nuanced thing,
but I think it it does reallymatter, that's really
interesting.
Well, because I was actuallyhaving this conversation with my

(01:00:20):
girlfriend last night.
I think the education system,at least in the united states I
don't know about in the uk isbiased towards women as well.
It has become in recent yearsyeah, well, well, number one.
It's like openly hostile towardsmen.
I remember my freshmanorientation.
They said if you're drunk andshe's drunk and you guys have
sex, you're a rapist, whichfeels like really gross Because

(01:00:45):
it's like, wait, it's, it's likenumber one.
I think a lot of men feel likea predator until they're proven
to be one of the good ones.
And then also, too, that takesagency away from women.
It's like, well, ok, so shecan't consent when she's drunk,
can she consent to drive?
Like what if she like drove,got in a car, killed a family of
four?

(01:01:05):
That also feels like oddlyunderhanded, subversively
patronizing towards women aswell.
But I mean, I, I get, I, I, Idon't I'm hesitant to jump on
these like hot button issuesbecause, like I know, there's a
lot of trauma around these kindof issues and I don't want to,
like you know, touch on that andthen them like, kind of like

(01:01:28):
attack me because, like I'm, I'mpart of, they see me as kind of
like part of the problem right,yeah, it's tricky but and
that's that's one thing thatI've been thinking about is like
hitting on thinking about mybrand as it relates to what's
going on in the world.

(01:01:49):
Like I showed you that thumbnailof like Trump versus Kamala,
and like the narrative battle ofmake America great again versus
we're not going back, like thatis a math, there's, that's a
masterclass, and Words likewordsmithing, you know, because
like that resonates so well forboth of your bases you know,

(01:02:11):
because I think men want to goback, or at least a lot of men
feel, I guess, marginalized orpushed aside or not heard and
that's why they're so pro-Trumpand at the same time, women are
feeling like we're regressing.

(01:02:32):
It's such a weird politicalclimate we're in right now and
I'm not even going to, if I do,pull the trigger off making that
content.
I'm not going to take apolitical stance because, like,
I'm not a political commentator,but I think it's an interesting
like microcosm to like flushout an idea even more.
Yeah, for sure, becausenarratives are powerful and like

(01:02:52):
we all interact with them allthe time, both externally and
internally, and like being alittle bit more I don't even
know how to phrase that a littlebit more intentional maybe, or
like active and like thinkingabout the narratives that are
surrounding you.
I think is really important.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
I agree with that.
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
Gotcha All right, so AI are you?
Using it at all.

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
I use it every day.
I couldn't do a job without it?
Yeah, totally.
So I use it for coding.
I have a really like oppositeopinion to the vast majority of
the world when it comes to AI.
Everyone's like, oh, it's goingto replace engineers and I'm
like I'm going to become anengineer, that's maybe like

(01:03:48):
maybe I'm the person that'sgoing to replace the engineers,
but like the time being, untilAI replaces me.
But I viewed it as anopportunity to improve my
technical skills.
Like my, my background is likemath and so like algorithms come
really naturally to me, butI've always been like it's been
at an arm's distance for me tobe able to implement those

(01:04:11):
algorithms, Whereas now I canactually implement my own math
and so like that's a hugesuperpower.
So I'm working for a clientright now.
It's a hedge fund and they havethis problem where their
trading system doesn't exposethe links between the buy and
sell side trades.
Without those links, you can'tcalculate stuff like profit and

(01:04:32):
loss, because profit and loss iscalculated across the trade
pair, and so we have to gothrough the data and like work
out what the links are based onpatterns in the data, and it's a
super complicated math problembecause it's like if you
incorrectly match a pair, thenyou lose that pair to match with
the next correct pair, blah,blah, blah.

(01:04:54):
So you have to get a reallyhigh match rate.
Otherwise, like yeah, if youmake a mistake, the cascading
effect is massive.

Speaker 1 (01:05:05):
It's like millions of dollars.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
Yeah, so I've been working on like building this
trade matching algorithm forthem.
It's something that they wantedto do for like five years, but
just engineers the engineersthat they hired were, like never
able to do it because it's amath problem, and so it's like
well, if you hire a math personand give them, like, the ability
to code.
that's a much more tractableapproach to the problem.

(01:05:30):
So when I, when I joined mycurrent firm, I couldn't write a
line of code, I couldn't read aline of code.
I was like totally codeilliterate and they threw me.
They gave me this code base andthey're like here's like what
we've got so far, like make itwork and I was like, okay,
you're charging how much to theclient for my time?

(01:05:51):
Good God Pressure's on.
So I just like threw the codebase into chat GPT and was like
tell me what this thing does.
And code base into chat GPT andwas like tell me what this
thing does.
And then it breaks it down andexplains it to me and from there
I was able to like learn how toread code.
And then I'm like, yeah, onceyou can read code, then you can
be literate and like, when youask it to write your own code,

(01:06:14):
you can debug it.
And that I find is the mostimportant thing with AI is like
it's never going to get theright answer.
So you need to be able topinpoint where the error is.
And so you have to have somelevel of code literacy to be
able to say, like you know youmade this error in this for loop
or whatever, do this otherthing instead.

(01:06:35):
And so like I really I think Ihave a really good understanding
of the logic of programming,but I'm like totally shit at
like knowing the right syntax orlike what function can I use
with what data structure andthat kind of stuff, and I really
don't see it with that.

Speaker 1 (01:06:56):
I too am code illiterate, and you know whose
fault it is it's Tableau's.

Speaker 2 (01:07:02):
Oh, that was like literally what we set out as
like a mission was like let'senable real code to be able to
do really powerful things withdata.

Speaker 1 (01:07:11):
Well, cause, like I could, if I were being a little
bit nefarious, I could say, ohyeah, I have what?
Eight years of working with sqland it's like yeah, kind of,
because in tableau built on a nosql framework no, it's built on
a sql framework yeah, so it'slike generate sql behind the
scenes right yeah, so it's likeI can come in.
I guess I shouldn't say I'm codeilliterate, because like I I

(01:07:34):
can do like a if, then statementor something.
But it's like basically tableauhas been telling me like here's
the right framework for that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:46):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:07:47):
But one thing that I have been.
So I just, in my current role,I just got access to the SQL or
the snowflake database.
So like.
I think I want to start gettinginto actually building out my
own SQL queries, because that'sone of the biggest holes that I
have, I think, as a educator inthe analytics space is that I

(01:08:07):
don't know SQL.
So, like I recently like took Ijust watched a YouTube video
and like built out a very basicSQL database and like did some
basic joins.
I understand the high-levelframework of this is how data
works.
These are all the different usecases.

(01:08:28):
I think what it is is.
I've seen SQL in the wild andsome of them have 38 lines.
I'm like this looks like thecode to like launch a rocket to
me.
It seems so complex and whatI'm realizing now as I'm saying
this, it's like oh, this isprobably just someone who isn't

(01:08:50):
thinking very efficiently.
I could be wrong, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:53):
It's like usually the like if you're really good at
coding, you can be reallyconcise.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
Right, yeah, cause it's.
It's almost like a glimpse intosomeone else's mind and how it
works, and I don't want to be inthat person's mind.
It's like it's like when Ishare my screen and you saw that
I had 38 tabs running on myChrome browser.
It's kind of like that whereit's like all these different
threads and it's like, oh, I'mnot going to close this time, I
might come back to it.

(01:09:19):
So yeah, it's.
Chatgpt is definitely a gamechanger, because when I reached
out to my friend, michaelGlarnek, he was saying that I
could learn Python super, superquickly using ChatGPT.
I need a use case and I need totell ChatGPT hey, here's the use

(01:09:40):
case, here's how the data isstructured, how would you
approach it?
And then it will basicallywrite it out for me, and then I
can study the syntax and justkind of build out from there,
which is it's interestingbecause the state of education
is rapidly shifting and I thinksome educators are trying to

(01:10:02):
fight against chat, gpt, andthey're not going to win.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
They're not going to win, nope.

Speaker 1 (01:10:06):
Yeah, and also, if you are a professor that is
threatened by chat GPT, you'reprobably a bad professor.
Right, right, because it's likerote memorization in the age of
AI is just useless.

Speaker 2 (01:10:22):
There's no value, yeah Right.

Speaker 1 (01:10:24):
And it's.
But what's kind of tricky onthe flip side of that is like,
how do you actually teachcritical thinking?
Yeah, did you feel like youdeveloped the critical thinking
muscle while you were inundergrad?

Speaker 2 (01:10:36):
grad school or once you started.
I think I developed it when Istarted working.
Yeah, I think I learned howwhen I started working.
Yeah, I think I learned how topass exams before then.

Speaker 1 (01:10:45):
Right, see, that's not how I teach.
I don't have a final in myclass.
Like I have them, go out, finda data set.
I mean, I have a ton ofdifferent data sets that like I
can give them, and it's like Iwant you to think about what you
want by the time you graduateand we're going to optimize your
LinkedIn, your resume and yourportfolio to that, and your

(01:11:07):
final exam is your portfolio.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
And then also how you present it.
That's amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
Yeah, which like it's weird.

Speaker 2 (01:11:15):
It's a more useful practical output than, like, 80%
of this exam.

Speaker 1 (01:11:21):
Right, yeah, yeah, I was.
I was joking with Terrell Tyson, who's the last podcast guest,
about like well, I mean, whatlike we were going through?
So Craig had pulled Kaggle, aKaggle data source that looked
at like lending trees, loan data, and then he did like a Power
BI dashboard that like looked atthe different types of loans,

(01:11:41):
the seasonality, the topic, thesize, um, and he had like
actually created like a wholepresentation to pitch him, um,
and and then he had like gottendone and I was like, uh, terrell
, do you think it might be moreimpressive?
As if I gave him a test and hejust got 100% on it.
It's like, no, not at all,because, yeah, it's like.

(01:12:09):
I don't know how education isgoing to work in the future.

Speaker 2 (01:12:12):
In the future, I know .

Speaker 1 (01:12:14):
Right, because it feels like it's antiquated at
this point.

Speaker 2 (01:12:19):
Extremely antiquated.
Yeah, I've got a six-month-oldbaby in my belly and I'm like.

Speaker 1 (01:12:26):
Yeah, you're probably thinking about that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
I'm like I don't want to send her to school.
What are they going to teachher?
I don't know, because even whenI look at how I'm learning to
code, I'm like all of the codeacademies they teach you how to
code are irrelevant.
They they come nowhere here,like what I've just done with
chat GPT, just like throwing acode base in it and being like

(01:12:50):
tell me what this does, and likelearning iteratively from there
, because the way they teachcoding is like from an atomic
level up.
So it's like this is an array,this is a list, this is a
whatever the different datastructures are and like these
are the functions that you canperform on a dictionary.
And like you're like you don'tget to the like and here's what

(01:13:12):
you can do with it and why itmatters until, like you're like
a year into your comp sci degreeuh, you know, maybe not a year,
but like it takes a long timeto get to the why, uh and the
what, um, whereas I started withlike here's a use case and I'm
like reverse engineering down tothe atomic level where like

(01:13:34):
okay, now, like three months in,I I start to have a bit of an
understanding of the differencebetween a list and a dictionary
and an array and whatever.
So, yeah, it's like learningbackwards from how things are
traditionally taught.

Speaker 1 (01:13:52):
Well, so from a educator or content creator
standpoint, I get it.
It so I have certain courses onudemy or linkedin that, like
during the pandemic, I created a100 hour long course on power
bi, like for the wow and what'sfunny is that by the time I had

(01:14:14):
posted, they had done an update,so it was outdated yeah, and
then I realized like, oh, Idon't want to be in this arms
race with the different tools oflike having to go back and
update everything.
Yeah, the the move seems to beto create evergreen content.
So, like my course on how dataanalytics for students, that's

(01:14:34):
evergreen right.
Marketing analytics, salesanalytics, like that's, like
those are frameworks and I getthat, that's why they would want
to approach it that way, from,like, a efficiency standpoint,
because there's no way in hellthat colleges are going to be
able to keep up with that.

Speaker 2 (01:14:50):
They're just not nimble enough, they're too big.

Speaker 1 (01:14:53):
And it's funny because, um, you know, I I'm on
the board at high pointuniversity in greensboro college
and it's part of the reason whyI'm not teaching at High Point
right now is because you knowit's a 30 minute drive and it's
like that's what, if I'mteaching three, that's three
hours of my week that I won'tget back.
So I don't want to do that.
But also, too, like I have muchmore influence on the school at

(01:15:15):
Greensboro College than I do atHigh Point, so I get to control
my own class.
You know, like I just met withthe VP of admissions and he
wants to like put me up on stageand we can film it and it's
like that's great for my contentand also like help me with my
brand positioning Right.
You know, I could have like aJordan Peterson style talk where

(01:15:38):
, like, I have a student and wecan talk about like his success
story of how he got in my classand he worked with one of my
clients, got his first actualtaste of real world analytics.
He then brought that into hisinterview for an internship,
killed like just knocked out ofthe park of the internship, got
his first job.
That'll have that wholenarrative happened within the

(01:15:58):
last year.
Right.
And it's like those are thestories that are narrative,
happened within the last year,right, um, and it's like.
Those are the stories that aregoing to help the vp sell more.
You know, get more students in,because right now it's a crap
shoot, like you're going tospend a hundred thousand dollars
and you might not get what youpay for, or like I guess, like
what do you even pay for?
Because, like it's, what'scrazy is, education is uniquely

(01:16:23):
positioned in that students payfor it, but then they don't want
to go to it.
You know, it's like you'repaying for this and you're not
going to class Like what's.

Speaker 2 (01:16:32):
What is going on?
Yeah, yeah, hmm.
So, yeah, I don't have theanswer, I just I agree with the
problem statement.

Speaker 1 (01:16:44):
Well, I think the answer is Like what I'm doing
this upcoming semester.
I'll go ahead and pull myscreen up again.
So what I'm doing is I'm goingto be live streaming my guest
lectures on Thursday evenings.

Speaker 2 (01:17:01):
Amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:17:02):
The first.
The first guest lecture isgoing to be my intern who came
into town, okay, last month orlast week, and he number one,
he's going to.
He's going to give them anarrative arc of like okay, I
got a job in analytics withinthe past year, here's my
experience, here's how Iapproached it, just so they have

(01:17:24):
a mental model of how to goabout doing that.
But then also too, so, yeah, soyou know, he worked for me for
two years and now he got he'salready gotten a promotion
within the first year of working, but what?
he so awesome, so the potentialactivity is going to be the
roadmap, but then also, too,he's using ChatGPT to automate a

(01:17:46):
lot of his job and it's like Iwant a use case.

Speaker 2 (01:17:50):
Yep, isn't that?
Awesome, that is awesome I wantto use ChatGPT to learn Python.
That's exactly what I'm doingthat's amazing.
So this is Michael Galarnik,right here, phd candidate at
Georgia, how to use chat GPT tolearn Python.

Speaker 1 (01:18:00):
That's exactly what I'm doing.
That's amazing, oh yeah, sothis is Michael Galarnik, right
here, phd candidate at GeorgiaTech Finance.
Yeah, right there.
And then I got Solomon comingon.
Gary Fly, john's the analyticsmanager at Home Depot.
Joey Cheek's an interesting one, so he's an Olympic gold
medalist in speed skating who'snow the um executive vice

(01:18:23):
president of the chambercommerce, and, uh, so I went
through their incubator program.
So I've got I've got goodconnections with the chamber
commerce here in greensbororight, yeah, so I don't know if
this feels like play to me yeahlike I don't, like I like this
has technically worked for me, Iguess, because, like you know,
like there's money in thepodcast, but this feels like

(01:18:46):
loose and creative and fun, andlike I'm open to your input.
I'm not like I feel like thelast eight years I've like white
knuckled my life where I'm likethis has to work, and now I'm
like the concept of surrender islike I'm like I'm relaxed, um

(01:19:06):
I'm open to new ideas.
You know, have traction, um, Imean, a big part of that is, uh,
the finances, though, becausewhen I was making the most money
so in 2023, in the fall I hadlike three months where I made
five figures in revenue throughthe Career Services program on
top of my other revenue stream.
What's crazy about that is thatI was so stressed I was just

(01:19:30):
like Uber Eats.
On top of I was paying apersonal chef to like cook my
own meals and going out anddoing this, and I probably spent
like seven grand in November.
I'm spending like half of thatnow, so I've gotten my finances

(01:19:51):
in order, cause I also had 15grand worth of credit card debt
at that time.

Speaker 2 (01:19:55):
Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 (01:19:56):
Cause.
It was like cause, yeah, I hadthose three really high months
and then that competitor enteredthe market at a quarter of my
price.
At that same time I had hiredthree people to help me run the
program.
Sales went to zero.
I lost 15 grand oh god well, butI've got space from it now and

(01:20:17):
it's like, holy, I've got such adifferent perspective on work,
cause every day I walk in thefresh market, there's a part of
me that's like, oh, it's stillhere, like it's still here, we
can, I can still collect apaycheck, like that's not a
worry that I have.
And just having like base levelof gratitude is such a
different mindset.

(01:20:38):
But also, too, I think havingfounders mentality as an
employee is like such adifferent mindset.
But also, too, I think havingfounders mentality as an
employee is like such adifferent, like vibe and energy.

Speaker 2 (01:20:48):
Yes, I would agree with that.

Speaker 1 (01:20:51):
So, okay, I feel like the audience may not know what
I mean when I say foundersmentality.
What can you explain?
Like how you Founders mentalityis like?
And I say founders mentality,what can you explain?

Speaker 2 (01:20:58):
Like, like founders mentality is like, like, I feel
like I have a founders mentalitybecause I came from like a pre
product market fit startup whereI like poured my heart into
building this product and andactually the hardest part of
building the product was sellingthe product.
Cause, like I, I reallysubscribe to the rob snyder view

(01:21:22):
of the world that, um, he'slike a, he's like a startup
founder advisor on like go tomarket wait, rob snyder.

Speaker 1 (01:21:32):
I thought he was an actor rob.

Speaker 2 (01:21:35):
No, I think, hold on, am I?

Speaker 1 (01:21:37):
thinking of rob reiner.

Speaker 2 (01:21:40):
I think hold on.
Am I thinking of Rob Reiner?
Rob, no, it's, I'm going tolook him up now.

Speaker 1 (01:21:45):
Yeah, rob.

Speaker 2 (01:21:45):
Snyder yeah, he's a fellow at the Harvard Innovation
Lab.
Anyway, his whole thing is,like if you want to like, like
basically throw out the textbook.
If you want to build a business, the only thing you should do
is try and sell your product andlike if people are buying,
you're not solving a problemthat they care about, and so,
like, do the sales part firstand then build the product once

(01:22:08):
you've like sold it.
And then the reverse, which hashistorically been build the
product and then sell it Anywayso that's what I spent the whole
time I was like the CPO, but Iwas actually like the CRO
because I was just likemilitantly working on sales,
because I'm like if we can'tsell the thing, there's no point
building it.
So, yeah, what is founder'smentality?

(01:22:32):
I don't know.
It's like I've come into mynext company with just an
enormous amount of respect andgratitude for the fact that,
like, my bosses are able togenerate revenue.
And it's, I think, unfoundersmentality is like I think you
should pay me more because I'mworth this.
And it's like I'm like dude,I'm so glad that you're doing

(01:22:54):
the selling and I'm not Likethank you for making a viable
business where I can work oninteresting things and like
teach myself how to code inpython, like right, I don't know
like.
So it's having much moregratitude for like the struggle
of like actually making money,because yeah until until you are

(01:23:16):
responsible for earning revenue.
You don't know shit.
That's kind of funny.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:23:26):
It is interesting because that's an angle I didn't
even think about, of the likepay me more, you know.
So I was talking about.
Are you familiar with DavisClark?

Speaker 2 (01:23:36):
No.

Speaker 1 (01:23:37):
Okay, he's like all over TikTok and he's so funny
and it's like Channel 5 did likea little mini documentary on
him.
So he's a guy that's like it'slike a new shift in the culture
where he's young, he's probablyin his mid-20s and he's like I'm
stoked.
He's like I woke up.
It's a riser routine.

(01:23:57):
I woke up at 4 30 this morning.
This morning I hit the gym, Igot a nice pump in.
I'm now on the subway, I'm herewith my boys and we're getting
hype because we're going to goin there and we're going to
bring home the shareholder valueand it's like and he's making
TikToks about that and at firstI thought it was a meme, I

(01:24:22):
thought he was making fun ofcorporate percent, genuine, oh
wow, and he has like 60 millionfollowers.
So it's like a cultural shiftthat's going on from you know,
us millennials and like the gigeconomy and being like you know,
um, self-sufficient andentrepreneurial, to where it's
like no, we're gonna be in thisbig company and you know we're
gonna be, you know, locked.
It's basically like a frat bro,and I was talking about it with

(01:24:42):
Gary yesterday.
We were talking about who wouldyou rather hire the golden
retriever energy person or theangry black cat person?

Speaker 2 (01:24:59):
It's true, right.

Speaker 1 (01:25:06):
Yeah, you know, know, like the like, uh, the the
marxist, communist mentality oflike we need to seize the means
of labor, it's, it's that is theantithetical of the founder's
mentality it's an interestingconversation.
I haven't had this specificconversation before?
I don't think, but I'm startingto piece it together.
It's also a broader trendthat's happening with Gen Z,

(01:25:27):
where there's a void between themen and the women and that the
men are becoming increasinglyconservative and the women are
becoming increasingly liberal.
I don't know what that's goingto look like.

Speaker 2 (01:25:39):
I actually saw an Econom economist article about
exactly that.

Speaker 1 (01:25:43):
Well, I mean, it's like yeah, it's like well, it's
like, are we gonna have, justlike, a population collapse?
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:25:51):
Right, but also too.

Speaker 1 (01:25:52):
I've seen this with.
So with one of my friends, ryanwho's he's doing very, very
well, he's got his, hismarketing agency.
Just got Ryan who's who's doingvery, very well, he's got his,
his, his marketing agency justgot like major traction, like
they they landed a deal and Ithink they're they're doing well
into the millions of revenue atthis point.
I introduced him to my friendKelly.

(01:26:13):
He was like was very liberaland outspoken, but then they got
together and all of a suddennow she's like well, you know,
know, maybe we should lowertaxes you know it's interesting
very funny just like, uh, youknow now that she's like wifed
up by a wealthy guy.
It's like you know, there's,there's some, I don't know, I

(01:26:40):
it's.
I was afraid to become aprofessor at first because it
was like right around the timewhere, like, all the madness was
going on on campus.
And what's interesting atGreensboro college most of my
kids are like pretty normal.
There's there's not, like youknow, extremist students that
are in my classroom.
So I'm pretty grateful for that.

(01:27:02):
And I don't know, because Iwent to UNCG University of North
Carolina, greensboro, and thatcampus seems split Like.
On one side it's like all theartistic people and they're, you
know, kind of in that likeleftist, far leftist, and then
there's like the frat bros whogo to, like you know, the sports
bar and watch sports and drinkbeer and play pool and it's

(01:27:24):
right, it's weird because it'slike.
It's like separate cultureswithin one culture right, I
don't know I mean.
Well, so you're in london.
I don't know if any of this,any of this, resonate with you
like it's.

Speaker 2 (01:27:36):
It's like I hear about it, but it's not like my
reality okay, well, yeah, what'sgen z in england like?
I, I think like I, yeah, I'm.
I realized how old I am andlike disconnected from gen z
when I went out for dinner lastweek with a bunch of um, the
european team at sigma computing.
I don't know if they're like anemerging analytics company,

(01:27:59):
that's like a tablo.

Speaker 1 (01:28:03):
I'm starting to work Gen Z slang in Facts.

Speaker 2 (01:28:05):
Oh yeah, I don't even know.
I don't even know the Gen Zslang.
I just learned yesterday thatlike high socks are back in.
I am so behind.

Speaker 1 (01:28:15):
Yeah, high socks with sandals.
I was thinking about like AI tocreate men.
Gen Z men are getting perms nowand I was thinking about doing
an AI picture with me of a perm.

Speaker 2 (01:28:31):
Right, yeah.
No, I'm like I need to get backin with Gen Z because I feel
like I'm becoming disconnectedfrom where the kids are at.
Yeah, you want to get back inwith Gen Z because I feel like
I'm becoming disconnected fromlike where the kids are at.
I went and hung out with allthese people from Sigma and I
asked them.
I was like you guys are all GenZ right and they're like yeah,
yeah.
They asked me, you're amillennial right.

(01:28:51):
And I was like what else wouldI be?
They were like I don't know,like the one above.
I was like that's people intheir like 40s, like.

Speaker 1 (01:29:03):
Gen X.

Speaker 2 (01:29:03):
It's like pregnant.
Yeah, I don't know.
I was like oh, how humbling.

Speaker 1 (01:29:13):
It's fascinating.
I had no idea where all thiswas going, although I kind of to
piggyback off some Gen Z slanglike do it for the plot, that's
a big one.
Um, I'm kind of here for it all, like it's such an interesting
time to be alive it is likethink about what happened
politically like joe biden wasin the debate was incoherent.

(01:29:40):
Then Donald Trump got shot.
Then Kamala came out.
Like if I saw a post on socialmedia that was like if you saw,
if someone wrote this in a likea TV show, you'd be like this
isn't real.

Speaker 2 (01:29:52):
I mean the only thing that could make it better is if
we took my German colleague andmade him American, so he could
run into president.

Speaker 1 (01:30:07):
That's true.
Yeah, we need, uh, we need.
That's awesome.
Well, hey, bethany, I feel likewe've, we've.
How long have we been talking?

Speaker 2 (01:30:11):
It's an hour and a half.

Speaker 1 (01:30:12):
It's an hour and a half.
So so I'm gonna, I'm gonna endthe episode, um, but I'm down to
chat a little bit more so wecan drop names and say things
that I don't want to drop outthere.
But thank you so much for beingon.
This has been an amazingconversation.
I've really enjoyed yourcompany.

Speaker 2 (01:30:29):
I've really enjoyed this conversation as well.
Thanks so much for inviting meon the show, yeah.

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