November 1, 2023 • 33 mins
You unlock this episode with the key of curiosity. Beyond the door is a journey into the realm of self-directed language learning. "Can you learn a language by yourself?" is not just a question, but a portal, where sociocultural theory and Vygotsky's insights await. Brace yourself, for you are entering—the Zone of Proximal Development!
Bonus: if drinking games are your thing, take a drink every time we say the word “zone.”
New episodes every month! Transcripts available at howtolanguagepod.com. To stay in the loop, follow us on Instagram @howtolang
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Jeremiah (00:04):
Welcome, everybody, to another episode of How to
Language, a podcast aboutlanguage learning and everything
that entails.
I'm your host, Jeremiah, andwith me is my co host, Marina.
Say hi, Marina.
Marina (00:13):
Hi!
Jeremiah (00:14):
In this episode, we're going to be getting into some
questions that are fundamentalto the whole project of language
learning.
In particular, the main questionwe're looking at is, can you
learn a language by yourself?
As with most things that we talkabout, the answer isn't as
simple as you might think.
(00:36):
Marina, to kick off this topic,let's start with a related
question.
Can you talk about yourexperiences with language
learning by yourself, and howthat compares with learning a
language as part of a group?
Marina (00:47):
I think the first thing that comes to mind for me is the
fact that when you're learning alanguage by yourself, you not
only have to do the learningyourself, but you also have to
kind of fill the role of theteacher and the curriculum
designer and the discipliner.
You take on a lot of roles thata teacher or an instructor or a
(01:09):
peer mentor teacher would takeon.
And that can be difficult,depending on how much you know
about the language.
It's kind of like...
the saying that's like, youdon't know how much you don't
know.
And so, unless you maybe buy atextbook that guides you very,
closely, it can be difficult tofigure out where to start
(01:32):
sometimes.
That's been my experience.
Even just knowing which textbookto get, that alone can be a
difficult decision.
Finding resources on your own.
Understanding your own learningstyle.
Those are all things that, youknow, you're taking on more
responsibilities, I guess, whenyou're learning a language on
your own.
You have to know a lot aboutyourself.
Jeremiah (01:53):
Absolutely.
One way to look at it maybe isthat, you know, when you're
learning a language as part of aclass or some other structure
where somebody handles all ofthat for you, in that case, you
just have one job, which is tolearn the language and to do the
homework, whatever.
But, when you're learning byyourself, just like you just
(02:14):
said, you have to be the learnerbut also the teacher in the
sense that now you have twojobs.
You're doing, you're doing theteacher's whole job of teaching
you yourself, but you're alsodoing, still doing the learner's
whole job, which is to learn thelanguage.
And so in that sense, you'rekind of taking on, I don't know,
maybe twice, maybe twice as muchof the labor.
And so maybe that's certainlynot the only reason that people
(02:38):
who try to learn a language bythemselves don't always stick
with it, but that might be partof the reason.
It's just a lot more work.
Marina (02:44):
Right.
You just show up to class whenyou're taking a class and you
just kind of take it all in asmuch as you can.
Jeremiah (02:50):
Exactly.
Somebody else creates thelearning opportunities for you,
at least in the class they do.
They know what you don't know.
Not just in the sense that theyhave knowledge that you don't,
but they are aware of your gapsand they're aware of your level,
whereas just, you know,yourself, yeah, it's hard to
know what you don't know.
That's kind of the wholeproblem.
(03:11):
And a book can help with that,but even then it's hard to know
how important different topicsare.
It's hard to know how difficultsomething is going to be before
you've learned it.
And so you're kind of learning,you know, blind.
even if you do have a textbook,you can see what's coming, but
you don't really know, you can'treally grasp what it's gonna be
the experience of learning ituntil you actually do it.
Marina (03:33):
Right.
What about you?
You've had quite a lot ofexperience with self directed
learning.
Do you have any takes?
Jeremiah (03:41):
hard to stick with it for kind of the reason that I
said because you have to put intwice as much labor but it's
also hard because like youmentioned you have to be a self
discipliner and as much as youmight be invested, as much as
you might be motivated, it'svery easy to just let yourself
off the hook and be like,"well,I'll do this later.
(04:04):
Or"I've earned a day off," eventhough you've just taken three
day offs consecutively.
It's, it's, yeah, it's easy togive yourself a pass, it's easy
to say, well,"I don't feel likeworking on this right now, this
part's a little extra hard, soI'm going to do something I find
fun.
Like, I find, oh, I find thegrammar drills fun, so I'll just
do a couple more grammar drills.
I'm still studying, I'm stilldoing work, it's still good, I'm
still learning," but, you know,if you're learning by yourself,
(04:27):
you're not necessarily forcingyourself into uncomfortable
situations, and it's inuncomfortable situations that we
do our best learning, as we'lltalk about.
Marina (04:35):
So...
As interesting as this is, itdoesn't feel like we're any
closer to actually answering thequestion that's the title of
this episode.
Um, which is like, can you learna language by yourself?
Jeremiah (04:47):
Yeah, I think, yeah, to answer that question, we're
probably going to have to turnto our old friend, Theory,
friend of the show, Theory, andto do that, I'll go ahead and
introduce sort of the maintheorist that we're going to be
referring to in this episode,educational-- or child
psychologist rather, by the nameof Lev Vygotsky.
Lev Vygotsky was a Soviet childpsychologist.
(05:12):
He was born in 1896.
He lived through the OctoberRevolution in Russia in 1917,
which he was very inspired by.
Marina (05:23):
Wait, what?
He was inspired by the OctoberRevolution?
Jeremiah (05:26):
He was! As a matter of fact.
Post revolutionary Russia was atime of tremendous upheaval
because this empire that hadbeen around for hundreds of
years had now been overthrown,not to mention the fact that
there was a lot of chaosimmediately after the revolution
for various reasons, that Iwould love to get into.
(05:47):
[both chuckle] But it was amajor era of change on every
conceivable level.
New ideas were being embracedand one of the important points
of the October Revolution, aswith many such revolutions, is a
huge, huge emphasis oneducation, on educating people
(06:07):
about their circumstances andjust everything to do with
education.
Because before the RussianRevolution, most people weren't
literate, and it's been the,it's been that way in many
revolutions.
And after the revolution, thereare huge literacy campaigns, and
that was the case in the OctoberRevolution.
And so, Yeah, Vygotsky washugely, uh, inspired by this
(06:29):
atmosphere of change and thisatmosphere of emphasis on
education.
Vygotsky himself sort ofredefined learning, in a way
that wasn't just relevant to theSoviet context, but really has
had a ripple effect across theentire world.
He challenged ideas of solitarylearning that had been dominant
(06:51):
up to that point.
The ideas that Vygotsky hadabout learning were, you could
kind of see how they came out ofthe October Revolution because
Vygotsky really saw thatlearning was more of a
collective process thananything, which really fit with
the collective spirit of thetime of the October Revolution.
And he really applied sort of arevolutionary spirit to
(07:13):
learning.
So he was more than just aproduct of his time, he was kind
of a visionary.
Marina (07:17):
I did not know any of that.
I mean, I know the nameVygotsky.
He's...
If you've ever taken anyeducation class, he's like one
of the first names that youlearn as like a major theorist
of the 20th century.
But I didn't know all thatbackground.
That's really interesting.
Jeremiah (07:32):
Yeah, and as a matter of fact, that's kind of by
design, because Vygotsky had alot of really revolutionary
ideas and a lot of really greatideas, that were hugely
inspiring for educators all overthe world.
But the thing is, he also camefrom this milieu of actual,
actual revolution, and he was arevolutionary theorist in the
(07:54):
most realist sense of the word.
And that has been, he's beensort of separated from that.
He's been sort of whitewashed inthat respect, for...for reasons.
But, uh, I think to reallyunderstand Vygotsky, you have to
understand that context.
So yeah, to transition to whatexactly Vygotsky's theories
consisted of, why they'rerelevant to language learning,
(08:15):
and also how they help answerthe question, can you learn a
language by yourself, I thinkthe first thing to talk about is
sociocultural theory.
We won't spend a ton of time onsociocultural theory because it
was really...well, it's relevantto language learning, especially
in the sense that we'll talkabout it later.
But for Vygotsky, socioculturaltheory was really a theory of
how children develop.
(08:37):
So, it's partially relevant tous, but also partially not.
So we'll kind of, uh, skim overit.
So as I said, socioculturaltheory originally described
cognitive development inchildren and it contrasts very
sharply with individualistictheories which as I said had
been pretty dominant up untilthat point.
Learning and development, uh, inVygotsky's view, are collective
(09:00):
processes.
They don't just happen insidethe individual brain.
You might say it's the system orparadigm that conditions
Vygotskian approaches toteaching and learning to this
day.
This idea that, yes, as a matterof fact, learning and
development are highly, highlysocial, cultural, collective
processes.
(09:20):
They don't just happen in avacuum.
So sociocultural theory saysthat social interaction and
cultural context have a centralrole in shaping cognitive
development.
They're not just sort ofhappening around.
They're not just interesting.
They are central to howdevelopment happens in children,
(09:41):
but also in other ways.
They're central to that, andthey're central to what
development even means, what itlooks like.
Interaction with peers andadults isn't just about getting
support the way that it's oftensort of framed.
It's like, oh, you know, you canget support, like if you're
learning something new, yeah,it's good to have a support
network.
People who, you know, keep youaccountable and support you.
Vygotsky says"no, there's moreto it than that." It's not just
(10:03):
support, learning requires that.
That is a fundamental aspect oflearning.
Learning isn't the same if youdon't have others to not just
support your learning, but be apart of your learning.
Vygotsky really contrasts withanother psychologist of the era
that you'll hear a lot about inPsych 101 classes, uh, Jean
(10:24):
Piaget.
He was a contemporary ofVygotsky and he thought that
children develop cognitively inpredetermined stages.
And that their learning followsthose stages.
Vygotsky said,"well, no, it'sthe opposite.
Through social interaction,children learn how to be
socially in their particularcontext and their cognitive
development follows theirlearning." So for Piaget,
(10:45):
learning follows development,for Vygotsky, development
follows learning.
It's maybe a little bit of asimplification, but that's just
cognitive development inchildren.
And you might be wondering,"whatrelevance does that have for
language learners?" And reallywhat we're talking about is
language learning.
It's about how children learntheir first languages, which is
why Vygotsky still gets talkedabout, especially in applied
(11:07):
linguistics, circles, especiallyin the context of first language
acquisition.
Piaget thought that aschildren's brains developed,
their language learning wouldfollow that.
So, for example, for a child touse words like"bigger" and
"more," their brains would haveto have developed to a point
where they can comprehend that,where they can comprehend the
(11:28):
concepts of"bigger" and"more."So a child couldn't learn
"bigger" until their brain is ata stage where"bigger" is a thing
that they can visualize andconceive of.
Vygotsky argued that whenchildren are in a supportive and
interactive environment, theycan advance to higher levels of
language proficiency than theyotherwise would.
So, as a matter of fact, thereare actual cases of people who
(11:49):
were starved of interactionduring childhood.
And, as such, their languagedevelopment was stunted.
And I think this shows thatlanguage proficiency isn't just
a question of brain development.
Your brain can develop as fastas it wants, as much as it
wants, but if you don't havethat social context and that
cultural context, then yourlinguistic powers will be
stunted.
Marina (12:09):
Right, and correct me if I'm wrong, but this is why it's
recommended to parents of youngchildren to talk to their kids
as much as possible, even whenthey're preverbal.
Because, you know, talking tothem, reading to them, is what
helps them acquire their firstlanguage.
Not just, oh, once they're likeat the right age, when they're
(12:32):
like three months old and twodays,[laughs] they'll suddenly
be able to start saying whatwell, you know what I mean.
Jeremiah (12:39):
Oh yeah, exactly.
So ok, so first of all, we'renot child psychologists.
[laughs]
Marina (12:50):
Right, that's not really our area.
Jeremiah (12:50):
Not really our area.
So I'm not gonna go ahead andsay,"Oh, what determines when a
child becomes verbal is howtheir sociocultural interaction
goes.
I'm not gonna say that because Idon't know that, but, um, I
think that there's some evidenceto say, well, maybe that's a big
part of it.
Marina (12:59):
Mmhmm.
Jeremiah (13:00):
And yeah, I think exactly you're right.
That is why that's recommended,so, yes.
So sociocultural theory sets thestage for understanding the real
concept that is the whole pointof this episode, which is called
the Zone of ProximalDevelopment.
And this is really one ofVygotsky's most well known
concepts, and I think this willhelp us answer the question,
(13:21):
definitively, can you learn alanguage by yourself?
Marina (13:24):
We should add in the Twilight Zone theme song when
you say Zone of ProximalDevelopment.
I always think of that whenI...[chuckles]
Jeremiah (13:31):
That's funny.
Marina (13:31):
--When I talk about this.
Jeremiah (13:32):
I forget how that introduction goes.
It's like, what does he say?
Marina (13:36):
I don't know.
[laughs]
Jeremiah (13:37):
But it's like, yeah, the theme music.
And he is like--
Marina (13:39):
Well it's something different every time.
Jeremiah (13:40):
Oh.
It's like,[in a Rod Serlingvoice]"you're entering the
Twilight Zone." Mm-hmm Yeah.
"You're entering the Zone ofProximal Development."
Marina (13:47):
Yep.
Jeremiah (13:48):
So, sociocultural theory is to the Zone of
Proximal Development, or ZPD.
That's how we'll refer to itgoing forward.
Sociocultural theory is to theZPD what the principles of
thermodynamics are to theinternal combustion engine.
To use an analogy.
I love using analogies.
Marina (14:06):
And one that I don't understand.
Jeremiah (14:08):
Well, okay, so, well, let me explain.
[both laugh] What do, yeah, whatdo I mean by that?
Sociocultural theory is thetheoretical basis, but by itself
it doesn't explain in concreteterms how or where learning
happens.
Zone of proximal development, orZPD, is the mechanism of
learning.
The concrete approach thataccepting sociocultural theory
(14:29):
leads you to.
So you could go back in time andteach a cave person
thermodynamics, and they could,they could understand it, you
know, perfectly.
You could teach it to them untilthey're an expert on
thermodynamics, but are theygoing to be able to build a car?
No, because, yeah, because,yeah, the internal combustion
engine is thermodynamics appliedin a practical way.
(14:52):
Vygotsky defined the zone ofproximal development as, and I'm
quoting here,"the distancebetween the actual developmental
level of the learner asdetermined by independent
problem solving, and the levelof potential development as
determined through problemsolving under adult guidance, or
in collaboration with morecapable peers."
Marina (15:14):
Phew!
Jeremiah (15:15):
Yeah.
End quote.
In simple terms, this is thedistance between what you can
accomplish on your own and whatyou can accomplish with a more
capable peer or with a teacher.
And according to Vygotsky, and Iam inclined to agree, this is
where the best learning happens.
You can kind of think of it as,um, learning in the construction
(15:35):
zone.
That's a, a fun, a funformulation because you have
what you can already do byyourself, right?
Stuff that you're so good at itthat you don't even need help to
do it.
And so doing it, when you'realready good enough at it that
you don't need help doing it,you're not going to learn that
much because you already knowhow to do it.
(15:56):
You don't learn that much fromdoing stuff you already know how
to do.
And then there's stuff that youcan't do unless you have
somebody to help you.
And so if you're by yourself,you can't do those things.
And the zone between those twopoints, what you can do by
yourself, and what you can doonly when you have guidance from
a more capable peer, is theconstruction zone.
That's where you're constructingnew learning.
You're learning in theconstruction zone.
Marina (16:18):
So...
Vygotsky's formulation of theZPD says that you learn in the
space between what you can do onyour own and what you can do
with the help of a more capablepeer, or most cases a teacher.
So, does that mean that the onlyway you can learn is if it's
with people who know more thanyou?
Jeremiah (16:39):
That's a good question, and I.
If you were to ask Vygotsky thatquestion, uh, he would probably
say yes, but since Vygotsky'stime, the concept of the zone of
proximal Development has beenexpanded.
There are a number ofresearchers who have added
different types of interactionsthat all allow the learner to
(17:00):
work in the Zone of proximalDevelopment.
One such interaction is betweenequal peers, right?
So not a more capable peer, buta peer who is about at your
level.
And it says that even two peerswho are at relatively equal
levels of knowledge can createZones of Proximal Development
for each other because, forexample, maybe one peer really
(17:21):
gets the past tense and theother has a strong command of
language chunks.
But, the first one maybe isn'tso good at language chunks.
The second one maybe isn't sogood at the past tense.
Even if they're both in the sameclass, and even if they're both
ostensibly at the same level,technically, we know that what
we call proficiency is actuallymuch more nuanced than that.
(17:43):
So, in different respects,they're more capable peers for
each other.
Marina (17:47):
Interesting.
It's like they're compatible.
They complete each other.
Jeremiah (17:50):
Exactly.
And it's always going to be likethat, right?
Because proficiency developsunevenly.
And there are things that peopleare really good at, things that
people aren't so good at, andit's just the way it is.
You can even build your Zone ofProximal Development with less
capable peers.
So, Marina, we are bothteachers.
When you teach a class, do youfind that you don't really learn
anything because you alreadyknow everything?
(18:12):
Or do you yourself find that youlearn in the process of
teaching?
Marina (18:16):
I definitely learn every single time Yeah.
If there's were a teacher whosays that they don't ever learn
anything in their job, thenthey're not doing teaching
right.
I learn a lot from the processof teaching.
And just like the analogy thatwe did a while ago with, like,
grabbing the cat's tail.
Jeremiah (18:36):
Yeah.
Marina (18:36):
There's things that you learn when you teach that you
can't learn in any other way.
I also am constantly learningfrom my students.
Oh yeah, it's, it's neverending.
Jeremiah (18:46):
Yeah.
I've definitely had the sameexperience, because when you're
teaching, you know, I think notonly did I learn about teaching
from teaching, because that'sjust the way it is, right?
You learn what you do.
Marina (18:57):
You learn by doing.
Jeremiah (18:57):
You learn by doing.
Not only that, but I learned alot about the topics that I was
teaching about.
Yeah.
Because I already knew a prettydecent amount about those
topics.
I kind of, you know, in generalI had to to get the teaching
jobs.
But, there are always gaps.
There are always things that arekind of fuzzy.
And...
I think that's the, that's thegreat part about being a
(19:20):
teacher, but that's also part ofwhat being a good teacher looks
like, not to, you know, blow onmy own trumpet, but, uh, it's
treating your students not justas vessels that you're trying to
fill up, but as peers, I guess,in the sense that you're
learning together.
And, I don't, that's not just,that's, I'm not just saying that
in kind of the trendy sense oflike, Oh, I'm just a facilitator
(19:43):
and whatever, like, lifelonglearners, like, that's cool and
all, but no, what I'm talkingabout is actually, like, you're
the teacher, they're thestudent, that's the
relationship, but it's not a oneway relationship.
Marina (19:55):
Some researchers have even suggested that you can work
within your ZPD, even whenyou're alone, by using learning
strategies, inner speech, whichis basically talking to yourself
in your head, resources in yourenvironment, and experimentation
that you've internalized.
However, it's worth noting thatto get these things, you still
(20:18):
have to have that socioculturalelement.
So working alone in your ZPDshould be seen as supplemental,
but I don't know howconsistently you can do it if
it's all you're doing.
Jeremiah (20:29):
Yeah, so I was just gonna ask do you think that that
last point kind of invalidates,or not invalidates, but, sort of
inversely answers the questionof can you learn a language by
yourself?
Like, do you think that lastpoint is saying, well, yeah, you
can learn a language byyourself, or is there more to
it?
Marina (20:44):
I think you definitely can.
It's not like it's impossible,but I think it's a lot harder.
Jeremiah (20:49):
Definitely a lot harder.
I think you made, you made agood point there too, that, uh,
to be working in your Zone ofProximal Development when you're
by yourself, it's not that youdon't need a teacher, you don't
need a more capable peer or justa peer, it's just that you can
do some of the, you can do someof the learning in the
construction zone by yourself,but, to make the construction
(21:11):
zone, you still need somebody.
And that's why it'ssupplemental.
Marina (21:14):
The ZPD also reminds us that learning is about practice.
And by that we don't just meanrepetition, but actual problem
solving.
Jeremiah (21:24):
When we say problem solving, what we're really
talking about, if you thinkabout it, is changing the world,
and not just in big ways.
seeing learning as a question ofpractice really just means that
the only way to learn aboutsomething is to engage in the
work of changing it.
Marina (21:40):
...What?
[laughs incredulously]
Jeremiah (21:41):
How do you learn what a pear tastes like?
Marina (21:43):
You eat it.
Jeremiah (21:46):
You change it by eating it.
And this helps explain why it'snot enough to study grammar and
memorize vocabulary.
Those things are important, butI would argue that they're not
the same as learning.
Remember, that language is atool for accomplishing social
action, as much as a hammer is atool for hammering nails.
(22:07):
Learning grammar and memorizingvocab is kind of like building
your own hammer.
You're building the tool.
You can shape it, polish it,make it the most beautiful
hammer in existence, but none ofthat actually teaches you how to
hammer nails.
The only way to learn how to usea hammer is through changing a
nail by hammering it into wood.
(22:27):
Just so, the only way to learnto use a language is to try and
use it to change something inyour social surroundings,
otherwise known as socialaction.
Marina (22:37):
Interesting, because I know that this is--so, like, I'm
familiar with the Japanesecontext just because that's
where I studied and that's wherea lot of my research was
focused.
And so I know that in Japan, acommon complaint about language
education there is that theyteach the test.
They teach students who arelearning English to take the
(22:59):
test to get into college or toget into high school or
whatever.
And they do really well on thesetests.
But when it actually comes tousing the language, their
proficiency is a lot lower thanwhat you might expect from their
test scores.
That's exactly what you'retalking about, where you study
the grammar, you memorize thevocabulary, but that is not to
(23:20):
say that they learned thelanguage, if that's the case.
Jeremiah (23:24):
Exactly.
And they learned how to dosomething.
Marina (23:26):
They learned how to take the
Jeremiah (23:27):
They learned how--exactly--they learned how
to take the test, they learnedhow to fill in the bubbles, they
learned what to look out for,and this is like a whole
different debate.
But...
Yeah, when you teach to thetest, you are teaching how to
take a specific test.
Marina (23:40):
So, let's look to the theory again for an explanation
of why this
Jeremiah (23:43):
A non pear based explanation.
Marina (23:46):
Oh, thank god.
[laughs] So there's been a lotof research in this area, but
one particular article that Ifound is called"The Zone of
Proximal Development, anAffirmative Perspective in
Teaching ELLs/MLLs." ELL standsfor English Language Learner,
and MLL stands for MultilingualLanguage Learners.
(24:07):
Essentially the same thing,except the ELL is more specific
to people who are learningEnglish, obviously.
this article is by Elsa Billingsand Aida Waqui.
Apologies.
Even though that this is...
sort of directed towardsteachers, I think it's still
relevant for learners as itgives you a glimpse into how
(24:28):
language is taught, which is aperspective that learners don't
often get to see.
So here's a quote from thisarticle.
It's long, so bear with me.
"Too often, ELLs and MLLs areremoved from heterogeneous
classrooms and isolated inEnglish as a Second Language or
English Language Developmentcourses, rendering students
(24:51):
devoid of contact andinteraction with ELLs and MLLs
who have better command ofEnglish or native English
speaking peers.
As a result, they are providedvery narrowly focused education,
in which grammar and vocabulary,not content, are the focus and
where language iscurricularized.
(25:11):
However, what Vygotsky's andother researchers work shows us
is that by identifying theskills, knowledge, and practices
that are on the edge ofdevelopment, i.
e.
the ZPD, teachers can providetargeted support, or scaffolds,
for students to reach thedesired level of skill and
(25:33):
knowledge and thus move towardsautonomy in that area.
It is in this space that ateacher's role is to recognize
and integrate the exactpedagogical scaffolds that
support students ripening oflinguistic, conceptual, and/or
academic potential.
For ELLs and MLLs, to reachtheir potential, it is essential
(25:56):
that we provide them access tocontent, as well as regular and
consistent opportunities toengage with their peers in a
heterogeneous classroomsetting."[sigh of relief]
Jeremiah (26:08):
End quote.
Marina (26:08):
End quote.
[laughs]
Jeremiah (26:10):
Earlier I talked about practice and learning as a
process of trying to changereality.
In applied linguistics, this hasa different name.
It's generally called problemsolving.
So to summarize all of that, theZPD shows how the best learning
happens when you are solvingproblems with the help of a peer
or a teacher.
(26:31):
All this is pretty neatly summedup in a saying that I think most
people know (26:34):
two heads are better than one.
And ZPD explains why that is.
Marina (26:40):
is.
Sidenote.
Another consequence ofunderstanding learning in
sociocultural terms isunderstanding that language
learning doesn't happen in avacuum.
It's affected by oursociocultural context, which
includes political and economicsystems.
Jeremiah (26:56):
Put really simply, not everyone has the same access to
language learning resources.
We won't tell you to just take aclass because that's not an
option for many people.
So language learning is not apurely meritocratic process.
Why are we saying this?
Well, because we don't want youto come away from this episode
and think,"Oh gosh, I got toenroll in a class," because, and
(27:17):
I hope we've shown, that the ZPDis something that you construct
with a peer.
And they don't have to be ateacher at a university.
It's literally just somebodyelse who can allow you to
accomplish more with them thanyou can all by yourself.
That's really all it takes.
(27:37):
So for you, in your languagelearning, to bring it back to
you the listener, to reiterate,learning doesn't happen in a
vacuum.
So if you are embarking on aquest of learning a language,
this is something that's reallyimportant to remember, is that
yeah you can do a lot byyourself.
You can do a lot with Duolingo.
You can do a lot with Memrise.
You can do a lot with atextbook.
(27:59):
You can achieve some, somepretty great things.
You can become veryknowledgeable, you can become
proficient in a lot of thingsand all of that is really
invaluable, right?
Another thing is that learning,according to Vygotsky, is a
profoundly social activity, andwhether you are a beginner,
intermediate, or an advancedlanguage learner or language
(28:22):
user, there's a limit to whatyou can accomplish on your own.
illustrate the Zone of ProximalDevelopment in action, let me
just give you an example or ascenario.
Imagine that you're cleaningyour apartment your dorm, your
house, whatever, and you decideto use that as an opportunity to
talk to yourself in the languagethat you're learning.
That's a pretty good littlehabit to get into it's a good
(28:45):
way to get a little extraproduction.
So you're narrating what you'redoing, but oh no, you can't
remember the word for vacuumcleaner.
It's in your brain somewhere,but for the life of you, you
can't recall what it is.
You've bumped up against abarrier that you're not equipped
to surmount.
Later in the week, you'retalking to your friend who is a
highly competent speaker of thelanguage you're learning.
(29:05):
You decide to take thisopportunity to practice your
speaking skills, so you start totell them about your week how,
you cleaned your apartment.
But again, you can't recall theword for vacuum cleaner.
So you pause think and maybe youmake a vacuum gesture and go
vrrrr vrrr vrrrrr.
And your friend immediatelysupplies the word for you.
Alone, you weren't capable ofsurmounting that barrier and yet
(29:26):
with a more competent peer youwere.
And according to Vygotsky, thespace between those two points,
the Zone of ProximalDevelopment, that's where
learning takes place.
Marina (29:36):
So for you, as a learner, this means a few
things.
One, it means you actually haveto talk to people.
[Jeremiah gasps dramatically] Iknow, I'm sorry to be the break
this to you.
This shouldn't surprise you, aswe've talked about it before,
but it bears repeating.
What talking to people lookslike for you will vary depending
(29:56):
on your goals, and the resourcesyou have access to, and your
learning preferences, amongother things.
So, we're not saying that if youdon't go out and talk to random
strangers in the street, thenthat means you're not going to
learn anything.
Not at all.
What we are saying is what we'vesaid before.
You learn to speak by speaking.
(30:19):
And that's hard to do all byyour lonesome.
Jeremiah (30:22):
Yeah, and two, it means that you have to find or
create situations there will bepeople for you to talk to.
Uh, just to name a fewpossibilities: this could be a
language exchange.
It could be collaborativelearning activities.
It could be working with atutor.
It could be a traditionalclassroom.
Some of these are things thatare gatekept by, expense.
(30:42):
Some of them kinda aren't.
Some of them, well, all of themrequire a little bit of time
from you.
But if you're learning anotherlanguage, then you've probably
set aside a little bit of timein which to do so.
Online language exchange sites,like Tandem and HelloTalk, are
also completely valid for this,by the way.
You don't have to be in the sameroom with somebody for Zone of
(31:02):
Proximal Development to count.
This isn't a, uh,"phone bad"type situation.
Marina (31:08):
Now, some learners might feel apprehensive about speaking
to strangers, or even peoplethey know, and making mistakes,
sounding ungrammatical, thingslike that.
And that is 100 percent valid.
But one thing that might helpand bring you some comfort is
that ZPD understands thatlearners are inherently capable.
(31:32):
You are a capable languagelearner.
You might be a different levelthan your peers, you might be a
different level than your tutor,or your teacher, or your
language exchange partner, oryour classmate, whoever you're
talking to.
But ZPD rejects the stagistnotion that a person's potential
(31:52):
is limited to their currentdevelopment.
It also rejects theindividualism that says that
your development is fixed orsomehow predetermined.
So, making mistakes, means thatyou are learning.
It doesn't mean that you areincompetent.
You, the learner, are inherentlycapable.
Jeremiah (32:13):
Yeah.
And I think we'll leave you withthat because it really doesn't,
uh, it really doesn't get anybetter than that.
That's just the bottom line.
You, the learner, are inherentlycapable.
That is the basis of ZPD.
And to get into the space wherethat capability grows, that's
the Zone of ProximalDevelopment.
And to get there, uh, you can'tdo it on your own.
Marina (32:36):
Use the buddy system.
Thanks for tuning in to How toLanguage.
We hope this episode on thescience of learning a language
by yourself helped you toappreciate the opportunities and
(32:56):
limitations for self-directedlearning.
To keep up to date onannouncements and get your
weekly dose of language memes,you can follow us on X and
Instagram at@howtolang.
See you next time!
Jeremiah (33:09):
Later days!
Welcome, everybody, to another episode of How to
Language, a podcast aboutlanguage learning and everything
that entails.
I'm your host, Jeremiah, andwith me is my co host, Marina.
Say hi, Marina.
Marina (00:13):
Hi!
Jeremiah (00:14):
In this episode, we're going to be getting into some
questions that are fundamentalto the whole project of language
learning.
In particular, the main questionwe're looking at is, can you
learn a language by yourself?
As with most things that we talkabout, the answer isn't as
simple as you might think.
(00:36):
Marina, to kick off this topic,let's start with a related
question.
Can you talk about yourexperiences with language
learning by yourself, and howthat compares with learning a
language as part of a group?
Marina (00:47):
I think the first thing that comes to mind for me is the
fact that when you're learning alanguage by yourself, you not
only have to do the learningyourself, but you also have to
kind of fill the role of theteacher and the curriculum
designer and the discipliner.
You take on a lot of roles thata teacher or an instructor or a
(01:09):
peer mentor teacher would takeon.
And that can be difficult,depending on how much you know
about the language.
It's kind of like...
the saying that's like, youdon't know how much you don't
know.
And so, unless you maybe buy atextbook that guides you very,
closely, it can be difficult tofigure out where to start
(01:32):
sometimes.
That's been my experience.
Even just knowing which textbookto get, that alone can be a
difficult decision.
Finding resources on your own.
Understanding your own learningstyle.
Those are all things that, youknow, you're taking on more
responsibilities, I guess, whenyou're learning a language on
your own.
You have to know a lot aboutyourself.
Jeremiah (01:53):
Absolutely.
One way to look at it maybe isthat, you know, when you're
learning a language as part of aclass or some other structure
where somebody handles all ofthat for you, in that case, you
just have one job, which is tolearn the language and to do the
homework, whatever.
But, when you're learning byyourself, just like you just
(02:14):
said, you have to be the learnerbut also the teacher in the
sense that now you have twojobs.
You're doing, you're doing theteacher's whole job of teaching
you yourself, but you're alsodoing, still doing the learner's
whole job, which is to learn thelanguage.
And so in that sense, you'rekind of taking on, I don't know,
maybe twice, maybe twice as muchof the labor.
And so maybe that's certainlynot the only reason that people
(02:38):
who try to learn a language bythemselves don't always stick
with it, but that might be partof the reason.
It's just a lot more work.
Marina (02:44):
Right.
You just show up to class whenyou're taking a class and you
just kind of take it all in asmuch as you can.
Jeremiah (02:50):
Exactly.
Somebody else creates thelearning opportunities for you,
at least in the class they do.
They know what you don't know.
Not just in the sense that theyhave knowledge that you don't,
but they are aware of your gapsand they're aware of your level,
whereas just, you know,yourself, yeah, it's hard to
know what you don't know.
That's kind of the wholeproblem.
(03:11):
And a book can help with that,but even then it's hard to know
how important different topicsare.
It's hard to know how difficultsomething is going to be before
you've learned it.
And so you're kind of learning,you know, blind.
even if you do have a textbook,you can see what's coming, but
you don't really know, you can'treally grasp what it's gonna be
the experience of learning ituntil you actually do it.
Marina (03:33):
Right.
What about you?
You've had quite a lot ofexperience with self directed
learning.
Do you have any takes?
Jeremiah (03:41):
hard to stick with it for kind of the reason that I
said because you have to put intwice as much labor but it's
also hard because like youmentioned you have to be a self
discipliner and as much as youmight be invested, as much as
you might be motivated, it'svery easy to just let yourself
off the hook and be like,"well,I'll do this later.
(04:04):
Or"I've earned a day off," eventhough you've just taken three
day offs consecutively.
It's, it's, yeah, it's easy togive yourself a pass, it's easy
to say, well,"I don't feel likeworking on this right now, this
part's a little extra hard, soI'm going to do something I find
fun.
Like, I find, oh, I find thegrammar drills fun, so I'll just
do a couple more grammar drills.
I'm still studying, I'm stilldoing work, it's still good, I'm
still learning," but, you know,if you're learning by yourself,
(04:27):
you're not necessarily forcingyourself into uncomfortable
situations, and it's inuncomfortable situations that we
do our best learning, as we'lltalk about.
Marina (04:35):
So...
As interesting as this is, itdoesn't feel like we're any
closer to actually answering thequestion that's the title of
this episode.
Um, which is like, can you learna language by yourself?
Jeremiah (04:47):
Yeah, I think, yeah, to answer that question, we're
probably going to have to turnto our old friend, Theory,
friend of the show, Theory, andto do that, I'll go ahead and
introduce sort of the maintheorist that we're going to be
referring to in this episode,educational-- or child
psychologist rather, by the nameof Lev Vygotsky.
Lev Vygotsky was a Soviet childpsychologist.
(05:12):
He was born in 1896.
He lived through the OctoberRevolution in Russia in 1917,
which he was very inspired by.
Marina (05:23):
Wait, what?
He was inspired by the OctoberRevolution?
Jeremiah (05:26):
He was! As a matter of fact.
Post revolutionary Russia was atime of tremendous upheaval
because this empire that hadbeen around for hundreds of
years had now been overthrown,not to mention the fact that
there was a lot of chaosimmediately after the revolution
for various reasons, that Iwould love to get into.
(05:47):
[both chuckle] But it was amajor era of change on every
conceivable level.
New ideas were being embracedand one of the important points
of the October Revolution, aswith many such revolutions, is a
huge, huge emphasis oneducation, on educating people
(06:07):
about their circumstances andjust everything to do with
education.
Because before the RussianRevolution, most people weren't
literate, and it's been the,it's been that way in many
revolutions.
And after the revolution, thereare huge literacy campaigns, and
that was the case in the OctoberRevolution.
And so, Yeah, Vygotsky washugely, uh, inspired by this
(06:29):
atmosphere of change and thisatmosphere of emphasis on
education.
Vygotsky himself sort ofredefined learning, in a way
that wasn't just relevant to theSoviet context, but really has
had a ripple effect across theentire world.
He challenged ideas of solitarylearning that had been dominant
(06:51):
up to that point.
The ideas that Vygotsky hadabout learning were, you could
kind of see how they came out ofthe October Revolution because
Vygotsky really saw thatlearning was more of a
collective process thananything, which really fit with
the collective spirit of thetime of the October Revolution.
And he really applied sort of arevolutionary spirit to
(07:13):
learning.
So he was more than just aproduct of his time, he was kind
of a visionary.
Marina (07:17):
I did not know any of that.
I mean, I know the nameVygotsky.
He's...
If you've ever taken anyeducation class, he's like one
of the first names that youlearn as like a major theorist
of the 20th century.
But I didn't know all thatbackground.
That's really interesting.
Jeremiah (07:32):
Yeah, and as a matter of fact, that's kind of by
design, because Vygotsky had alot of really revolutionary
ideas and a lot of really greatideas, that were hugely
inspiring for educators all overthe world.
But the thing is, he also camefrom this milieu of actual,
actual revolution, and he was arevolutionary theorist in the
(07:54):
most realist sense of the word.
And that has been, he's beensort of separated from that.
He's been sort of whitewashed inthat respect, for...for reasons.
But, uh, I think to reallyunderstand Vygotsky, you have to
understand that context.
So yeah, to transition to whatexactly Vygotsky's theories
consisted of, why they'rerelevant to language learning,
(08:15):
and also how they help answerthe question, can you learn a
language by yourself, I thinkthe first thing to talk about is
sociocultural theory.
We won't spend a ton of time onsociocultural theory because it
was really...well, it's relevantto language learning, especially
in the sense that we'll talkabout it later.
But for Vygotsky, socioculturaltheory was really a theory of
how children develop.
(08:37):
So, it's partially relevant tous, but also partially not.
So we'll kind of, uh, skim overit.
So as I said, socioculturaltheory originally described
cognitive development inchildren and it contrasts very
sharply with individualistictheories which as I said had
been pretty dominant up untilthat point.
Learning and development, uh, inVygotsky's view, are collective
(09:00):
processes.
They don't just happen insidethe individual brain.
You might say it's the system orparadigm that conditions
Vygotskian approaches toteaching and learning to this
day.
This idea that, yes, as a matterof fact, learning and
development are highly, highlysocial, cultural, collective
processes.
(09:20):
They don't just happen in avacuum.
So sociocultural theory saysthat social interaction and
cultural context have a centralrole in shaping cognitive
development.
They're not just sort ofhappening around.
They're not just interesting.
They are central to howdevelopment happens in children,
(09:41):
but also in other ways.
They're central to that, andthey're central to what
development even means, what itlooks like.
Interaction with peers andadults isn't just about getting
support the way that it's oftensort of framed.
It's like, oh, you know, you canget support, like if you're
learning something new, yeah,it's good to have a support
network.
People who, you know, keep youaccountable and support you.
Vygotsky says"no, there's moreto it than that." It's not just
(10:03):
support, learning requires that.
That is a fundamental aspect oflearning.
Learning isn't the same if youdon't have others to not just
support your learning, but be apart of your learning.
Vygotsky really contrasts withanother psychologist of the era
that you'll hear a lot about inPsych 101 classes, uh, Jean
(10:24):
Piaget.
He was a contemporary ofVygotsky and he thought that
children develop cognitively inpredetermined stages.
And that their learning followsthose stages.
Vygotsky said,"well, no, it'sthe opposite.
Through social interaction,children learn how to be
socially in their particularcontext and their cognitive
development follows theirlearning." So for Piaget,
(10:45):
learning follows development,for Vygotsky, development
follows learning.
It's maybe a little bit of asimplification, but that's just
cognitive development inchildren.
And you might be wondering,"whatrelevance does that have for
language learners?" And reallywhat we're talking about is
language learning.
It's about how children learntheir first languages, which is
why Vygotsky still gets talkedabout, especially in applied
(11:07):
linguistics, circles, especiallyin the context of first language
acquisition.
Piaget thought that aschildren's brains developed,
their language learning wouldfollow that.
So, for example, for a child touse words like"bigger" and
"more," their brains would haveto have developed to a point
where they can comprehend that,where they can comprehend the
(11:28):
concepts of"bigger" and"more."So a child couldn't learn
"bigger" until their brain is ata stage where"bigger" is a thing
that they can visualize andconceive of.
Vygotsky argued that whenchildren are in a supportive and
interactive environment, theycan advance to higher levels of
language proficiency than theyotherwise would.
So, as a matter of fact, thereare actual cases of people who
(11:49):
were starved of interactionduring childhood.
And, as such, their languagedevelopment was stunted.
And I think this shows thatlanguage proficiency isn't just
a question of brain development.
Your brain can develop as fastas it wants, as much as it
wants, but if you don't havethat social context and that
cultural context, then yourlinguistic powers will be
stunted.
Marina (12:09):
Right, and correct me if I'm wrong, but this is why it's
recommended to parents of youngchildren to talk to their kids
as much as possible, even whenthey're preverbal.
Because, you know, talking tothem, reading to them, is what
helps them acquire their firstlanguage.
Not just, oh, once they're likeat the right age, when they're
(12:32):
like three months old and twodays,[laughs] they'll suddenly
be able to start saying whatwell, you know what I mean.
Jeremiah (12:39):
Oh yeah, exactly.
So ok, so first of all, we'renot child psychologists.
[laughs]
Marina (12:50):
Right, that's not really our area.
Jeremiah (12:50):
Not really our area.
So I'm not gonna go ahead andsay,"Oh, what determines when a
child becomes verbal is howtheir sociocultural interaction
goes.
I'm not gonna say that because Idon't know that, but, um, I
think that there's some evidenceto say, well, maybe that's a big
part of it.
Marina (12:59):
Mmhmm.
Jeremiah (13:00):
And yeah, I think exactly you're right.
That is why that's recommended,so, yes.
So sociocultural theory sets thestage for understanding the real
concept that is the whole pointof this episode, which is called
the Zone of ProximalDevelopment.
And this is really one ofVygotsky's most well known
concepts, and I think this willhelp us answer the question,
(13:21):
definitively, can you learn alanguage by yourself?
Marina (13:24):
We should add in the Twilight Zone theme song when
you say Zone of ProximalDevelopment.
I always think of that whenI...[chuckles]
Jeremiah (13:31):
That's funny.
Marina (13:31):
--When I talk about this.
Jeremiah (13:32):
I forget how that introduction goes.
It's like, what does he say?
Marina (13:36):
I don't know.
[laughs]
Jeremiah (13:37):
But it's like, yeah, the theme music.
And he is like--
Marina (13:39):
Well it's something different every time.
Jeremiah (13:40):
Oh.
It's like,[in a Rod Serlingvoice]"you're entering the
Twilight Zone." Mm-hmm Yeah.
"You're entering the Zone ofProximal Development."
Marina (13:47):
Yep.
Jeremiah (13:48):
So, sociocultural theory is to the Zone of
Proximal Development, or ZPD.
That's how we'll refer to itgoing forward.
Sociocultural theory is to theZPD what the principles of
thermodynamics are to theinternal combustion engine.
To use an analogy.
I love using analogies.
Marina (14:06):
And one that I don't understand.
Jeremiah (14:08):
Well, okay, so, well, let me explain.
[both laugh] What do, yeah, whatdo I mean by that?
Sociocultural theory is thetheoretical basis, but by itself
it doesn't explain in concreteterms how or where learning
happens.
Zone of proximal development, orZPD, is the mechanism of
learning.
The concrete approach thataccepting sociocultural theory
(14:29):
leads you to.
So you could go back in time andteach a cave person
thermodynamics, and they could,they could understand it, you
know, perfectly.
You could teach it to them untilthey're an expert on
thermodynamics, but are theygoing to be able to build a car?
No, because, yeah, because,yeah, the internal combustion
engine is thermodynamics appliedin a practical way.
(14:52):
Vygotsky defined the zone ofproximal development as, and I'm
quoting here,"the distancebetween the actual developmental
level of the learner asdetermined by independent
problem solving, and the levelof potential development as
determined through problemsolving under adult guidance, or
in collaboration with morecapable peers."
Marina (15:14):
Phew!
Jeremiah (15:15):
Yeah.
End quote.
In simple terms, this is thedistance between what you can
accomplish on your own and whatyou can accomplish with a more
capable peer or with a teacher.
And according to Vygotsky, and Iam inclined to agree, this is
where the best learning happens.
You can kind of think of it as,um, learning in the construction
(15:35):
zone.
That's a, a fun, a funformulation because you have
what you can already do byyourself, right?
Stuff that you're so good at itthat you don't even need help to
do it.
And so doing it, when you'realready good enough at it that
you don't need help doing it,you're not going to learn that
much because you already knowhow to do it.
(15:56):
You don't learn that much fromdoing stuff you already know how
to do.
And then there's stuff that youcan't do unless you have
somebody to help you.
And so if you're by yourself,you can't do those things.
And the zone between those twopoints, what you can do by
yourself, and what you can doonly when you have guidance from
a more capable peer, is theconstruction zone.
That's where you're constructingnew learning.
You're learning in theconstruction zone.
Marina (16:18):
So...
Vygotsky's formulation of theZPD says that you learn in the
space between what you can do onyour own and what you can do
with the help of a more capablepeer, or most cases a teacher.
So, does that mean that the onlyway you can learn is if it's
with people who know more thanyou?
Jeremiah (16:39):
That's a good question, and I.
If you were to ask Vygotsky thatquestion, uh, he would probably
say yes, but since Vygotsky'stime, the concept of the zone of
proximal Development has beenexpanded.
There are a number ofresearchers who have added
different types of interactionsthat all allow the learner to
(17:00):
work in the Zone of proximalDevelopment.
One such interaction is betweenequal peers, right?
So not a more capable peer, buta peer who is about at your
level.
And it says that even two peerswho are at relatively equal
levels of knowledge can createZones of Proximal Development
for each other because, forexample, maybe one peer really
(17:21):
gets the past tense and theother has a strong command of
language chunks.
But, the first one maybe isn'tso good at language chunks.
The second one maybe isn't sogood at the past tense.
Even if they're both in the sameclass, and even if they're both
ostensibly at the same level,technically, we know that what
we call proficiency is actuallymuch more nuanced than that.
(17:43):
So, in different respects,they're more capable peers for
each other.
Marina (17:47):
Interesting.
It's like they're compatible.
They complete each other.
Jeremiah (17:50):
Exactly.
And it's always going to be likethat, right?
Because proficiency developsunevenly.
And there are things that peopleare really good at, things that
people aren't so good at, andit's just the way it is.
You can even build your Zone ofProximal Development with less
capable peers.
So, Marina, we are bothteachers.
When you teach a class, do youfind that you don't really learn
anything because you alreadyknow everything?
(18:12):
Or do you yourself find that youlearn in the process of
teaching?
Marina (18:16):
I definitely learn every single time Yeah.
If there's were a teacher whosays that they don't ever learn
anything in their job, thenthey're not doing teaching
right.
I learn a lot from the processof teaching.
And just like the analogy thatwe did a while ago with, like,
grabbing the cat's tail.
Jeremiah (18:36):
Yeah.
Marina (18:36):
There's things that you learn when you teach that you
can't learn in any other way.
I also am constantly learningfrom my students.
Oh yeah, it's, it's neverending.
Jeremiah (18:46):
Yeah.
I've definitely had the sameexperience, because when you're
teaching, you know, I think notonly did I learn about teaching
from teaching, because that'sjust the way it is, right?
You learn what you do.
Marina (18:57):
You learn by doing.
Jeremiah (18:57):
You learn by doing.
Not only that, but I learned alot about the topics that I was
teaching about.
Yeah.
Because I already knew a prettydecent amount about those
topics.
I kind of, you know, in generalI had to to get the teaching
jobs.
But, there are always gaps.
There are always things that arekind of fuzzy.
And...
I think that's the, that's thegreat part about being a
(19:20):
teacher, but that's also part ofwhat being a good teacher looks
like, not to, you know, blow onmy own trumpet, but, uh, it's
treating your students not justas vessels that you're trying to
fill up, but as peers, I guess,in the sense that you're
learning together.
And, I don't, that's not just,that's, I'm not just saying that
in kind of the trendy sense oflike, Oh, I'm just a facilitator
(19:43):
and whatever, like, lifelonglearners, like, that's cool and
all, but no, what I'm talkingabout is actually, like, you're
the teacher, they're thestudent, that's the
relationship, but it's not a oneway relationship.
Marina (19:55):
Some researchers have even suggested that you can work
within your ZPD, even whenyou're alone, by using learning
strategies, inner speech, whichis basically talking to yourself
in your head, resources in yourenvironment, and experimentation
that you've internalized.
However, it's worth noting thatto get these things, you still
(20:18):
have to have that socioculturalelement.
So working alone in your ZPDshould be seen as supplemental,
but I don't know howconsistently you can do it if
it's all you're doing.
Jeremiah (20:29):
Yeah, so I was just gonna ask do you think that that
last point kind of invalidates,or not invalidates, but, sort of
inversely answers the questionof can you learn a language by
yourself?
Like, do you think that lastpoint is saying, well, yeah, you
can learn a language byyourself, or is there more to
it?
Marina (20:44):
I think you definitely can.
It's not like it's impossible,but I think it's a lot harder.
Jeremiah (20:49):
Definitely a lot harder.
I think you made, you made agood point there too, that, uh,
to be working in your Zone ofProximal Development when you're
by yourself, it's not that youdon't need a teacher, you don't
need a more capable peer or justa peer, it's just that you can
do some of the, you can do someof the learning in the
construction zone by yourself,but, to make the construction
(21:11):
zone, you still need somebody.
And that's why it'ssupplemental.
Marina (21:14):
The ZPD also reminds us that learning is about practice.
And by that we don't just meanrepetition, but actual problem
solving.
Jeremiah (21:24):
When we say problem solving, what we're really
talking about, if you thinkabout it, is changing the world,
and not just in big ways.
seeing learning as a question ofpractice really just means that
the only way to learn aboutsomething is to engage in the
work of changing it.
Marina (21:40):
...What?
[laughs incredulously]
Jeremiah (21:41):
How do you learn what a pear tastes like?
Marina (21:43):
You eat it.
Jeremiah (21:46):
You change it by eating it.
And this helps explain why it'snot enough to study grammar and
memorize vocabulary.
Those things are important, butI would argue that they're not
the same as learning.
Remember, that language is atool for accomplishing social
action, as much as a hammer is atool for hammering nails.
(22:07):
Learning grammar and memorizingvocab is kind of like building
your own hammer.
You're building the tool.
You can shape it, polish it,make it the most beautiful
hammer in existence, but none ofthat actually teaches you how to
hammer nails.
The only way to learn how to usea hammer is through changing a
nail by hammering it into wood.
(22:27):
Just so, the only way to learnto use a language is to try and
use it to change something inyour social surroundings,
otherwise known as socialaction.
Marina (22:37):
Interesting, because I know that this is--so, like, I'm
familiar with the Japanesecontext just because that's
where I studied and that's wherea lot of my research was
focused.
And so I know that in Japan, acommon complaint about language
education there is that theyteach the test.
They teach students who arelearning English to take the
(22:59):
test to get into college or toget into high school or
whatever.
And they do really well on thesetests.
But when it actually comes tousing the language, their
proficiency is a lot lower thanwhat you might expect from their
test scores.
That's exactly what you'retalking about, where you study
the grammar, you memorize thevocabulary, but that is not to
(23:20):
say that they learned thelanguage, if that's the case.
Jeremiah (23:24):
Exactly.
And they learned how to dosomething.
Marina (23:26):
They learned how to take the
Jeremiah (23:27):
They learned how--exactly--they learned how
to take the test, they learnedhow to fill in the bubbles, they
learned what to look out for,and this is like a whole
different debate.
But...
Yeah, when you teach to thetest, you are teaching how to
take a specific test.
Marina (23:40):
So, let's look to the theory again for an explanation
of why this
Jeremiah (23:43):
A non pear based explanation.
Marina (23:46):
Oh, thank god.
[laughs] So there's been a lotof research in this area, but
one particular article that Ifound is called"The Zone of
Proximal Development, anAffirmative Perspective in
Teaching ELLs/MLLs." ELL standsfor English Language Learner,
and MLL stands for MultilingualLanguage Learners.
(24:07):
Essentially the same thing,except the ELL is more specific
to people who are learningEnglish, obviously.
this article is by Elsa Billingsand Aida Waqui.
Apologies.
Even though that this is...
sort of directed towardsteachers, I think it's still
relevant for learners as itgives you a glimpse into how
(24:28):
language is taught, which is aperspective that learners don't
often get to see.
So here's a quote from thisarticle.
It's long, so bear with me.
"Too often, ELLs and MLLs areremoved from heterogeneous
classrooms and isolated inEnglish as a Second Language or
English Language Developmentcourses, rendering students
(24:51):
devoid of contact andinteraction with ELLs and MLLs
who have better command ofEnglish or native English
speaking peers.
As a result, they are providedvery narrowly focused education,
in which grammar and vocabulary,not content, are the focus and
where language iscurricularized.
(25:11):
However, what Vygotsky's andother researchers work shows us
is that by identifying theskills, knowledge, and practices
that are on the edge ofdevelopment, i.
e.
the ZPD, teachers can providetargeted support, or scaffolds,
for students to reach thedesired level of skill and
(25:33):
knowledge and thus move towardsautonomy in that area.
It is in this space that ateacher's role is to recognize
and integrate the exactpedagogical scaffolds that
support students ripening oflinguistic, conceptual, and/or
academic potential.
For ELLs and MLLs, to reachtheir potential, it is essential
(25:56):
that we provide them access tocontent, as well as regular and
consistent opportunities toengage with their peers in a
heterogeneous classroomsetting."[sigh of relief]
Jeremiah (26:08):
End quote.
Marina (26:08):
End quote.
[laughs]
Jeremiah (26:10):
Earlier I talked about practice and learning as a
process of trying to changereality.
In applied linguistics, this hasa different name.
It's generally called problemsolving.
So to summarize all of that, theZPD shows how the best learning
happens when you are solvingproblems with the help of a peer
or a teacher.
(26:31):
All this is pretty neatly summedup in a saying that I think most
people know (26:34):
two heads are better than one.
And ZPD explains why that is.
Marina (26:40):
is.
Sidenote.
Another consequence ofunderstanding learning in
sociocultural terms isunderstanding that language
learning doesn't happen in avacuum.
It's affected by oursociocultural context, which
includes political and economicsystems.
Jeremiah (26:56):
Put really simply, not everyone has the same access to
language learning resources.
We won't tell you to just take aclass because that's not an
option for many people.
So language learning is not apurely meritocratic process.
Why are we saying this?
Well, because we don't want youto come away from this episode
and think,"Oh gosh, I got toenroll in a class," because, and
(27:17):
I hope we've shown, that the ZPDis something that you construct
with a peer.
And they don't have to be ateacher at a university.
It's literally just somebodyelse who can allow you to
accomplish more with them thanyou can all by yourself.
That's really all it takes.
(27:37):
So for you, in your languagelearning, to bring it back to
you the listener, to reiterate,learning doesn't happen in a
vacuum.
So if you are embarking on aquest of learning a language,
this is something that's reallyimportant to remember, is that
yeah you can do a lot byyourself.
You can do a lot with Duolingo.
You can do a lot with Memrise.
You can do a lot with atextbook.
(27:59):
You can achieve some, somepretty great things.
You can become veryknowledgeable, you can become
proficient in a lot of thingsand all of that is really
invaluable, right?
Another thing is that learning,according to Vygotsky, is a
profoundly social activity, andwhether you are a beginner,
intermediate, or an advancedlanguage learner or language
(28:22):
user, there's a limit to whatyou can accomplish on your own.
illustrate the Zone of ProximalDevelopment in action, let me
just give you an example or ascenario.
Imagine that you're cleaningyour apartment your dorm, your
house, whatever, and you decideto use that as an opportunity to
talk to yourself in the languagethat you're learning.
That's a pretty good littlehabit to get into it's a good
(28:45):
way to get a little extraproduction.
So you're narrating what you'redoing, but oh no, you can't
remember the word for vacuumcleaner.
It's in your brain somewhere,but for the life of you, you
can't recall what it is.
You've bumped up against abarrier that you're not equipped
to surmount.
Later in the week, you'retalking to your friend who is a
highly competent speaker of thelanguage you're learning.
(29:05):
You decide to take thisopportunity to practice your
speaking skills, so you start totell them about your week how,
you cleaned your apartment.
But again, you can't recall theword for vacuum cleaner.
So you pause think and maybe youmake a vacuum gesture and go
vrrrr vrrr vrrrrr.
And your friend immediatelysupplies the word for you.
Alone, you weren't capable ofsurmounting that barrier and yet
(29:26):
with a more competent peer youwere.
And according to Vygotsky, thespace between those two points,
the Zone of ProximalDevelopment, that's where
learning takes place.
Marina (29:36):
So for you, as a learner, this means a few
things.
One, it means you actually haveto talk to people.
[Jeremiah gasps dramatically] Iknow, I'm sorry to be the break
this to you.
This shouldn't surprise you, aswe've talked about it before,
but it bears repeating.
What talking to people lookslike for you will vary depending
(29:56):
on your goals, and the resourcesyou have access to, and your
learning preferences, amongother things.
So, we're not saying that if youdon't go out and talk to random
strangers in the street, thenthat means you're not going to
learn anything.
Not at all.
What we are saying is what we'vesaid before.
You learn to speak by speaking.
(30:19):
And that's hard to do all byyour lonesome.
Jeremiah (30:22):
Yeah, and two, it means that you have to find or
create situations there will bepeople for you to talk to.
Uh, just to name a fewpossibilities: this could be a
language exchange.
It could be collaborativelearning activities.
It could be working with atutor.
It could be a traditionalclassroom.
Some of these are things thatare gatekept by, expense.
(30:42):
Some of them kinda aren't.
Some of them, well, all of themrequire a little bit of time
from you.
But if you're learning anotherlanguage, then you've probably
set aside a little bit of timein which to do so.
Online language exchange sites,like Tandem and HelloTalk, are
also completely valid for this,by the way.
You don't have to be in the sameroom with somebody for Zone of
(31:02):
Proximal Development to count.
This isn't a, uh,"phone bad"type situation.
Marina (31:08):
Now, some learners might feel apprehensive about speaking
to strangers, or even peoplethey know, and making mistakes,
sounding ungrammatical, thingslike that.
And that is 100 percent valid.
But one thing that might helpand bring you some comfort is
that ZPD understands thatlearners are inherently capable.
(31:32):
You are a capable languagelearner.
You might be a different levelthan your peers, you might be a
different level than your tutor,or your teacher, or your
language exchange partner, oryour classmate, whoever you're
talking to.
But ZPD rejects the stagistnotion that a person's potential
(31:52):
is limited to their currentdevelopment.
It also rejects theindividualism that says that
your development is fixed orsomehow predetermined.
So, making mistakes, means thatyou are learning.
It doesn't mean that you areincompetent.
You, the learner, are inherentlycapable.
Jeremiah (32:13):
Yeah.
And I think we'll leave you withthat because it really doesn't,
uh, it really doesn't get anybetter than that.
That's just the bottom line.
You, the learner, are inherentlycapable.
That is the basis of ZPD.
And to get into the space wherethat capability grows, that's
the Zone of ProximalDevelopment.
And to get there, uh, you can'tdo it on your own.
Marina (32:36):
Use the buddy system.
Thanks for tuning in to How toLanguage.
We hope this episode on thescience of learning a language
by yourself helped you toappreciate the opportunities and
(32:56):
limitations for self-directedlearning.
To keep up to date onannouncements and get your
weekly dose of language memes,you can follow us on X and
Instagram at@howtolang.
See you next time!
Jeremiah (33:09):
Later days!
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