February 26, 2025 • 50 mins
You took Spanish in high school, forgot everything except “¿Dónde está la biblioteca?,” and now you want to relearn the language after a long break. How easy is it to pick up that language again? Join us as we break down the struggle (and triumphs) of language comebacks!
Sources:
Bardovi-Harlig, K., & Stringer, D. (2010). Variables in Second Language Attrition: Advancing the State of the Art. Link
Tracy-Ventura, N., Huensch, A., Katz, J. and Mitchell, R. (2025), Is Second Language Attrition Inevitable After Instruction Ends? An Exploratory Longitudinal Study of Advanced Instructed Second Language Users. Link
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeremiah (00:06):
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to How to Language,
a show about remembering, um, Iforget.
Marina (00:15):
Today on How to Language, we'll be addressing a
question that we've heard acouple times from fans, which
is, I learned X language in highschool or college, but I haven't
used it in a long time, and Idon't really remember it.
Is it possible for me to pick itup again, or do I have to start
all over?
Fortunately, you probably don'thave to start from square one.
(00:36):
But it will require some extraeffort on your part, kind of
like cold starting an oldlawnmower.
We'll look at some of the theorybehind memory and forgetting as
it applies to languageretention.
Then we'll offer some practicaladvice on how to prevent
forgetting before it starts, andrecover forgotten knowledge if
you're picking up an oldlanguage again after a
(00:57):
significant period away.
Jeremiah (01:04):
alright, so as we often do on this show, maybe
let's take a little while tojust talk about our own
experiences with this, which Ifeel like anyone who has You
know, in the past, studied alanguage or learned a language,
even if you knew it really well,but then spent some time away
from it, as we often do, youknow, life happens.
Um, I think we'll all have theshared experience of having
(01:25):
forgot, unfortunately forgotten,some or maybe even all of what
we once knew about our targetlanguage.
So, you know, that's anexperience I've had.
I know that's an experience thatyou've had, Marina.
So, I'll throw it over to youfirst, and then I'll jump in.
Um, what has been yourexperience with, You know,
forgetting, or, yeah, just, youknow, forgetting parts or even
(01:48):
all of a language that you'vestudied in the past.
Because I know you've studiedJapanese, I know you've studied
Latin, just like me, and I knowthat you haven't Really touched
either of those in a little bit.
Um, I did get you some Japanesebooks for, uh, for Christmas a
couple years ago that you didn'treally look at, but, you know, I
don't, I don't hold that againstyou, I've, I've learned since
then that books are notnecessarily the best Christmas
(02:08):
presents, but, um, you know,hopefully you'll take another
stab at, maybe after listeningto our episode, you'll take
another stab at those.
Marina (02:15):
Honestly, yeah, cause every time I think about
Japanese, I get really sad,because I really enjoyed
learning Japanese.
I think.
Oh my god, I started in collegeand I, I took Japanese classes
for like, I think three years.
I did a study abroad program onesummer when I was in college
(02:37):
where I took an intensiveJapanese course.
But then after I did that, Inever took another Japanese
class again because I got caughtup in You know, trying to
graduate, and, and then thepandemic happened, and I just
never did anything formal withJapanese again.
And I think that's an experiencethat a lot of people have,
(02:58):
because they learned a languageby taking a class.
Maybe that was in high school,maybe that was in college, maybe
that was, you know In anotherthird party environment or
whatever.
And you stop taking classes andthen you're no longer in an
environment where you need to beusing the language.
(03:19):
And then you just like, don'tever again.
Which is sad, because, I mean,at least for me, I feel kind of
guilty about it on a certainlevel.
Just, you know, I feel like Ilet myself down by Now, I don't
think this is true, but, like, Ido feel this way where I feel
(03:41):
like it was all a waste if Idon't start learning Japanese
again and start using it again,um, because I really valued
those experiences and so there'sa lot of, like, emotion tied up
in it in addition to just, like,when I do think about Japanese
or try to speak Japanese, I, Ifeel really bummed out by how
much I don't remember.
(04:02):
Especially when it's reallybasic stuff, like we're
forgetting basic verbs,forgetting basic nouns, um, it
can be very demoralizing andthat makes me not want to do it.
And so, yeah, that's been myexperience with it.
Um, Latin, I don't, I don'tremember anything and I don't
(04:22):
really feel bad about it.
Sorry.
Jeremiah (04:27):
That's fair.
Um, yeah, you know, youmentioned that For you, and I
think also for a lot of otherpeople, once you stop taking the
class, like the class in school,if you took a language in
school, um, that's really yourreason for coming back to it,
because you have to.
So there's a lot of built inaccountability, which we've
(04:47):
talked about previously, Ithink, and this is kind of the
flip side of that, which is thatif you've been relying on that
accountability of a class and,you know, a group of other
learners who Um, are sharingthat experience with you and
then all of a sudden, you're nottaking those classes anymore.
You're focusing on somethingelse or you've graduated or
whatever happens.
Um, you are now really the onlyone who's responsible for you
(05:13):
continuing to do that learning.
And You know, combining thatwith the fact that, you know, if
you're not taking those classesanymore, it might be because of
a significant life change, likeyou've graduated, you're
working, whatever.
Um, so it can be a really bigupset to your routine, and so it
can be really easy to fall offthe wagon at that point, I
think.
Um, so that's reallyunderstandable.
I think that happened to me toowith Spanish, and um, I never
(05:36):
really took Latin classes, butyou know, um,
Marina (05:39):
oh yeah, like it doesn't.
It's not always like a classroomcontext, either, that triggers a
break.
I think that's just reallycommon.
But, with yourself studying alanguage, the sort of quote
unquote break that you're takingmight be a little bit more
fuzzy, like the boundary is alittle more fuzzy.
Um, because you don't have abuilt in accountability system
(06:01):
necessarily.
You just kind of stop forwhatever reason, or slow down
for whatever reason.
Um, but it can still happen evenif you weren't ever taking a
class.
Jeremiah (06:13):
Yeah, and it's definitely sad, no matter what,
because I get what you meanabout it feeling like a waste.
Um, it feels like you invested aton of time and effort into
something, and, you know, peoplesay use it or lose it, and
there's definitely some truth tothat, which is that, you know,
you've put all this work intoit, and if you're not using it,
it's like it just kind of goes,it seems like it just goes down
(06:35):
the drain.
Um, and it's a bummer, and youmentioned that.
It makes you sad, and so itmakes you not want to pick it up
again, because you'll just bereminded of that feeling.
So, it kind of raises a bit ofan affective barrier to getting
back into it, because there'slike, um, some Catholic guilt
about forgetting your targetlanguage.
(06:58):
So yeah, I can definitely relateto that.
Do you have any otherexperiences to share about that?
Um,
Marina (07:06):
at least for now.
I think I'll talk about somemore stuff later, but that's
kind of it for the intro.
Jeremiah (07:11):
Yeah, and I definitely had similar, similar
experiences, I think, withparticularly Spanish, because
that's the one that I just kindof found myself sticking with
throughout college.
Not even by any sort of plan oridea of what I wanted to do with
that.
I was just like, Oh, yeah, Iguess I'll take Spanish again.
(07:31):
Every quarter I was like, Oh, Ineed a class to take.
Oh, that's okay.
She can be in the podcast.
Our dog just did a little shakeanyway.
Um, you know, every quarter Iwas like, Oh, I guess I'll take
Spanish again, um, sort ofmuddling along, but I enjoyed it
and I got a lot out of it.
Marina (07:49):
You accidentally became fluent in Spanish.
Jeremiah (07:52):
Yeah, I guess literally just cause I had
nothing better to do.
Um, but I'm glad I did.
And I feel like.
We'll talk about this a littlebit later, but I feel like I've
retained a pretty good amount ofit, and we'll talk about why.
Um, but even so, you know, Ifeel a similar sense of guilt.
Um, you know, any time I'm in asituation where I feel like
(08:14):
Spanish would be useful, and I'mlike, I have it, but I'm kind of
embarrassed about, like, whereMy, like where my level has kind
of sunk to as a result of notconsistently practicing it all
the time.
And so it makes me not want touse it.
Sort of like how you feel aboutJapanese.
(08:36):
Um, so yeah, I can definitelyrelate to that.
And then Latin was a differentstory because like I said, I
never took classes for it and itwas really just like my own
impetus to keep going with itjust purely for the vibes I
guess.
And That is, you know, whenyou're doing that, it's really
easy to just stop and not evenbecause you do it consciously.
(08:57):
So often I think it's just thatlike, you get into a routine and
then something happens.
It can be like a really smallthing, like you go on a trip or
you get sick and it just for acouple of days messes up your
routine.
And then it's so easy to notstart again.
Um, you know, for that reason,it's kind of like.
Once you, if you're standing upfor a really long time, it's,
(09:20):
you can kind of keep going.
But once you sit down, you know,it's really hard to get back up.
Yeah.
Um, all of our older listeners Ithink will appreciate that.
Um, so yeah, I would say I havehad similar experiences in that
regard.
Gotta take a break, take a breakto pet the dog.
Marina (09:40):
She needs a lovey.
Jeremiah (09:42):
She needs a microphone.
Marina (09:43):
You need to love it.
Like, uh, have you ever learneda language and then took a
break?
Jeremiah (09:48):
Oh, she doesn't even speak English.
You don't speak English?
Marina (09:51):
What are you talking
Jeremiah (09:52):
about?
What are you talking
Marina (09:54):
about?
Jeremiah (09:54):
Micah, go lie down.
Go find something to do.
Let's keep that in.
Anyway.
Um, yeah.
So, okay.
Those are our experiences.
So, you know, with all that outof the way, do you want to go
ahead and introduce us to someof the theoretical framework
behind this phenomenon of likeforgetting, forgetting language,
(10:19):
like what's it, for one, what'slike the scientific term for it?
And for two, um, you know, whatare, what are kind of the forces
at play?
Because I think it's worthunderstanding those if we want
to try to combat them.
Marina (10:32):
Mm hmm.
Yeah, so the official scientificterm for this phenomenon is
called language attrition.
Jeremiah, you might be able todefine it better than me.
Jeremiah (10:43):
Yeah.
Marina (10:43):
Um, what does attrition mean?
Jeremiah (10:46):
Well, attrition is when you have, you have
something, right?
Um, it can be your language or,It's often used in like a
military context to refer to,um, or not even military, just
any like personnel situationwhere you're having people kind
of drop off for various reasons.
Like in a military context, itmight be because people are
dying.
(11:07):
And so there's a rate ofattrition of people getting, you
know, like in ancient warfare,it might even just be that
people are dying of disease moreso than battle.
Um, but you know.
Uh, like a class might have anattrition rate where over the
course of a year students arejust kind of one by one dropping
the class for whatever reason.
(11:29):
Basically you know attrition ishappening if you start out with
a certain amount of something atthe beginning and then at the
middle or at the end you haveless, right?
Right.
Um, so like your bank accountundergoes attrition throughout
the month while you're waitingfor payday.
Marina (11:43):
Yeah, so language attrition can take place for
your first language.
Um, often that happens mostlywith children.
Um, maybe they, you know, grewup, in the early years with one
language, they move into adifferent context where there's
another language that's spokenand they slowly lose their first
(12:04):
language, that would be L1language attrition, or, or L, or
just L1 attrition, but it canalso more commonly happen with
your second language, and we'llbe referring to it as L2
attrition, but this can happenfor your third language or
fourth language or any language.
We'll just use L2 to make iteasier.
(12:25):
Um, so, there's actually, like,not a lot of research on
language attrition, at least L2language attrition.
Um, it was surprisingly hard tofind studies that have looked at
this phenomenon.
But, We did kind of identify twomain theories about, not
(12:50):
necessarily why it happens,because I think that it sort of
boils down to just the fact thatlanguage has a component of
memory, and memory, when it'snot exercised for a long time,
does tend to go away, right?
Um, because Language is gonna bea combination, at least when
(13:11):
you're learning a language, it'sgonna be a combination of short
term and long term memory.
Where you activate your shortterm memory to learn new things.
You activate your short termmemory to learn new things, like
new vocabulary, but Eventually,hopefully, that becomes a part
of your long term memory.
(13:31):
Um, but, you know, if you don'tuse it, you lose it, and it
eventually goes away.
That's essentially what it boilsdown to.
Jeremiah (13:39):
Yeah, and even long term memory, um, even that can
have attrition.
Marina (13:45):
Oh, yeah.
Which we'll talk about.
Exactly.
Um, but, when it comes to, like,what that actually looks like,
When we're talking aboutlanguage attrition specifically,
there are two kind of maintheories.
Uh, one of them is sort of lastin, first out.
Much like in the big techcompanies that are having
(14:07):
layoffs right now.
Um, the idea is that the lastthing that you learned before
your, before your break, isgonna be the first thing to go.
So, if the last unit in yourJapanese class was imperatives,
um, and then over summer break,you're probably gonna have a
(14:30):
really hard time rememberingimperatives when you come back
in fall semester.
So, that's the idea of, like,the last in, first out.
And So if you follow that allthe way to its logical
conclusion, the idea is that youjust go backwards from where you
(14:50):
last left off, all the way backto the beginning.
So the first thing you lose isgoing to be the last thing you
learned, and then the one thatyou learned before that is going
to go, and the one before thatis going to go, all the way
back.
That's kind of the, sort ofregression hypothesis.
Jeremiah (15:05):
Which seems kind of, um, I don't know, Idealist to me
in the sense that Um, I don'tknow, I'm a little suspicious of
that particular formulation.
Just because it's like, it's toomechanical and nothing about
your brain is mechanical.
Marina (15:21):
I agree.
Jeremiah (15:22):
Um, I don't, I'm not contradicting you or anything,
but.
Marina (15:24):
No, I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just saying
what the theory is.
Jeremiah (15:28):
Yeah, I know.
Well, is there like a, would yousay there's a better, um, or
maybe more competitive theory?
Marina (15:35):
Yeah, so one that sort of came out of that last in
first out theory is the bestlearned last out theory, which.
Is also sometimes, you couldsort of rephrase it as, the more
you know, the less you lose.
So, the idea is that there arecertain, maybe words, or grammar
(15:56):
structures, or things like that,idioms, that you probably know
better than others.
Maybe you use those words morefrequently, they just come up
more, they're maybe more common,things like that.
The more embedded it is in yourmemory, the less likely you are
to lose it during periods oflanguage attrition.
(16:18):
Which makes more sense.
Yeah.
It's also probably a combinationof these two ideas.
Yeah, if you learn somethingmore recently.
It's more likely to be forgottenbecause it hasn't fully cooked
yet into your long term memory.
Jeremiah (16:34):
Yeah, you just have probably haven't reviewed it as
much.
Marina (16:37):
Yeah, exactly, but it doesn't, I don't, I'm also
suspicious of like this verylike regimented regression.
Mm hmm.
Um, that the first theory kindof suggests, so it's most likely
a little bit of a combination ofthose two things.
Jeremiah (16:49):
Yeah, and building off of best learned, last out, I'll
propose, I'll, I'll pose to youlike the analogy that's kind of
forming in my head, which iskind of based on my experience
with Spanish, particularly,which is that, um, specifically,
like you said, the more, youknow, the less you lose.
And I almost think there's likea, um, this is going to sound
(17:13):
really stupid, but like a, agravitational, um, You know, not
literally, but like you canimagine that inside your mind,
um, as you're learning language,like if you just learn a little
bit, then there's not a lot tolike link those bits of separate
knowledge of like differentgrammar rules and different
(17:35):
lexical items, vocabulary itemsto link those together.
And so the structure in yourbrain that's forming of the
language is just a lot less kindof.
Um, dense, I guess, and, and,um, stable.
And so, there's less holding ittogether, so it's easier for
pieces to kind of fly away.
(17:55):
Whereas the more you learn, um,and the more you kind of
consolidate That, that growing,like, I almost imagine like a,
like a ball of stuff of likelanguage stuff.
Kind of like, um, I don't knowif you know how like planets
form, but I'm sorry, I'm sorry,I'm sorry.
I don't know if you know howplanets form, um, but you know,
(18:15):
a long, long time ago, uh, the,the earth was like a bunch of
separate like bits of rock andspace dust and ice and stuff in
space, right?
Um, and the more of it that kindof coalesced in one place, the
more mass it had, and so themore gravity it had, and so it
could suck in even more things,more and more and more.
And so the more there is, themore stuff gets sucked towards
(18:38):
it, and the less is lost.
And I picture like a similarthing happening in your brain,
where if you already know a lotof the language, and you learn
just one extra word or just oneextra grammar concept.
Because of this kind of likeimaginary gravitational effect,
you're more likely to hold on tothat new piece.
If you already know a lot versusif you don't already know a lot,
(19:01):
there's like kind of lessholding it there in the system
overall.
And it's easier for it to kindof float away.
That's my head cannon based onmy experience.
Um, and a little bit based on,you know, the best learned last
out, um, theory, but I couldjust be like, totally.
Talking crazy, I don't
Marina (19:18):
know.
I mean, you are, but also, Yourtheory is, your headcanon is
also supported by theliterature.
Um, the more advanced you are inyour target language, the less
you're going to lose duringperiods of attrition.
Jeremiah (19:34):
Exactly, and that's been my experience with Spanish,
is there are things that I wouldthink that I would have lost,
but that are still almost likemuscle memory for me.
Right.
Even if they're things that Ilearned more recently,
relatively, than like, Dóndeestá la biblioteca?
Like, that's like, first thingyou learn, right?
Um, whereas subjunctive stuff,even, is still pretty solid in
(19:56):
there, even though it's morerecent, which would seem to kind
of contradict a little bit thelast in, first out, um, idea.
That's just my experience,though.
You're, uh, you know.
Marina (20:07):
Oh, yeah.
No, you're, you're, you're spoton there.
Um, there are, like, variables.
That come into play when itcomes to L2 attrition.
Um, and overall aptitude andcompetency in the language
before the break starts is ahuge one.
Um, so, you know, more advancedlearners are, are, are more
(20:30):
likely to retain more, um, overtime.
There are a few other variablesthat seem to also impact this.
One of them is going to beLiteracy and just overall
education level.
So if you have, if you'reliterate in your L2, then you're
(20:50):
more likely to retain thelanguage.
If you have, more education ingeneral, that's also an
indicator.
I'm not sure exactly what theimplications of that are.
It probably has to do withliteracy and just, I don't know,
overall academic preparedness.
I'm not exactly sure.
Um.
So, those are, um, I don't know,just interesting things to know.
(21:15):
Um, and then, when attritionactually does happen, regardless
of, like, what order, order itgoes in, um, there are some
interesting things about, like,what that actually looks like.
Um, so for example, This issomething that's supported by
the literature and also justanecdotally.
(21:36):
I think a lot of people willexperience this Which is that
your productive skills are morelikely to a trit than your
receptive skills, so You knowYou hear this from everybody but
like, you know, oh I can stillunderstand Spanish, but I can't
speak it anymore Right becausethey took it in high school This
(22:00):
is super common where yourspeaking and your writing
abilities might be a lot, theymight suffer a lot more than
your, like, reading andlistening skills.
Jeremiah (22:11):
Yeah, I would, I would, I've definitely heard
that from people, um, and Iwould say.
That's been my experience aswell.
I don't, hold on a second, Iwant to look up and see if a
trit is a word.
Marina (22:23):
I did look it up before because I wanted to know what
the verb was.
Really?
You can say a trit or a trite.
Jeremiah (22:30):
What?
Marina (22:30):
I know.
Jeremiah (22:31):
I've never heard that before in my life.
Right?
That's crazy.
If you're, uh, if you'relearning English and you just
learned that, Good luckretaining that.
Good luck retaining a trit or atrite in your, unless you
already know a lot of Englishand then Chances are you'll
remember it.
And even if you don't you'remore likely to remember
receptively Than productively.
(22:53):
Yeah.
Summary there for you.
Marina (22:55):
In some of the articles I was reading they even uses the
word a tritter
Jeremiah (23:00):
No a tritter
Marina (23:03):
Like
Jeremiah (23:03):
sounds like a slur
Marina (23:06):
I like to talk about students who are experiencing
language attrition.
Oh,
Jeremiah (23:11):
okay.
I was like, that doesn't soundlike any verb I've ever heard.
I'm like, a tritter?
I hardly know her.
Marina (23:17):
Such a weird word.
So yeah.
Um.
So, productive versus receptive,um, so that might have
implications for strategies forpicking up the language again,
which we'll talk about later.
Um, and then another interestingtidbit that I found was that,
(23:41):
um, your vocabulary is morelikely to, go during language
attrition than things likegrammar.
Um, so, you know, which I guessmakes sense because grammar is a
lot more abstract.
What am I trying to say?
(24:07):
Like I think that this, I thinkthis makes sense because
vocabulary is sort of likediscreet units that you have to
memorize.
Yeah.
Which I feel like might be moresusceptible to language loss or
just, you know, forgetting ingeneral.
Whereas grammar is more of likea system that you sort of just,
(24:32):
you, like you said earlier, islike muscle memory.
Jeremiah (24:35):
I have another crazy analogy for you.
Oh boy.
Just to capture this.
Okay.
Which is, okay, check this out.
Um, You can memorize a bunch ofdifferent, like, car makes and
models, right?
Like, the Mazda Miata RFKJR22 orwhatever, right?
You can memorize, like, a bunchof those, like, like one of
(24:57):
those people who, like,memorizes all the different
types of tanks.
Mm hmm.
But you can forget that reallyeasily, especially if you're
not, like, Constantly like a carperson who's looking at it all
the time.
Mm-hmm But it's a lot harder toforget how to drive, huh?
Hmm.
Huh.
Marina (25:14):
That's pretty good.
Jeremiah (25:16):
I'm proud of that one.
Marina (25:18):
Yeah.
So there you go.
however, um.
In looking at the research, itlooks like, potentially, there
might be exceptions to that,like, for example, idioms, you
know, sort of set phrases,things like that, are also more
likely to be retained, versus,individual vocabulary words,
(25:39):
which I think also makes sensefor the same analogy that you
kind of used.
I think things like set phrasesand chunks and things like that
are more likely to be retained.
Jeremiah (25:51):
She's not even wet.
I don't know why she's shakingso much.
Anyway.
Marina (25:55):
She's trying to get our attention.
Jeremiah (25:56):
Yeah, I guess.
Marina (25:59):
Um.
Jeremiah (26:00):
I'm glad you said chunks because I was just
thinking that.
I was like, why would it be thatlike formulas, expressions,
idioms, like what do all thesehave to do with each other?
And I was like, oh, they're all,they're all chunks.
And we're constantly talkingabout how chunks are easier to
learn and remember.
than words, and I think part ofit is because a chunk, um,
(26:22):
typically, or probably almostalways says something about the
grammar of the language, um, ithas at least one, but maybe
multiple grammar rules bakedinto it, usually, you know, for
idioms, it's, it's possible thatit's like.
Not as true, because idioms canhave grammatical forms that are
(26:43):
no longer productive, which isjust a linguistic y way of
saying that, like, people don'treally say, talk that way
anymore, except in that idiom.
It's like a Kind of archaic,
Marina (26:54):
yeah.
Jeremiah (26:54):
Can you think of any examples of that?
Marina (26:56):
In English?
Yeah.
Um, the
Jeremiah (27:09):
Be that as it may.
It's a set phrase.
It uses, like, an Englishsubjunctive, and we don't really
use be in that way in productiveways anymore, even though we
used to.
Yeah,
Marina (27:23):
that's a good example.
Jeremiah (27:24):
Good example, yeah.
Um, speaking of remembering,like, chunks and idioms, I'm
wondering if you remember anychunks, any idioms, set phrases
or expressions from Japanesethat are, like, especially clear
in your mind that can kind of,um, be data or evidence for
this?
Marina (27:59):
No, I probably do.
I'm just trying to think of likeexamples.
Jeremiah (28:07):
I had a Spanish instructor who constantly in
class would say, which I barelyeven remember what it means, but
I remember it really clearly inmy mind or, you know, let's see.
Um, so now like whenever I'mtalking in Spanish and I'm, And
I'm like not sure what I'msaying or I just need a second
(28:30):
to think.
I'll be like, mmm, almost a bit.
Which doesn't really make sense.
It's like a verbal verbal tickof mine, I guess.
Marina (28:37):
Yeah.
I don't know.
I mean, there's a lot of likeset phrases in Japanese like um,
you know all all the differentgreetings that you do like
itekimasu, itterashai Thingslike that which have grammar
baked into them Uh, they justkind of like you just know
(28:58):
That's what you say.
Sure I don't know, my teacherswould always say, Yoku te
kimashita, which is like, goodjob.
So yeah, I think, but then,like, I, when I try and think
of, the word for, like, street,I can see the character for it,
but I don't remember how to sayit.
Jeremiah (29:19):
Yeah.
Interesting.
Marina (29:21):
Yeah.
Vamos a ver.
My Spanish teachers always saythat a lot.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay, so we've talked a bitabout the theory behind language
attrition.
But what does this all mean forthose of us who actually want to
get back on the wagon and startlearning that language again?
Jeremiah (29:39):
Is it on the wagon or off the wagon?
Marina (29:41):
Well, we want to get laughter Wasn't there like an
always sunny?
There's a Seinfeld.
Seinfeld?
Yeah.
I think on the wagon in thiscase.
Jeremiah (29:56):
Is the wagon bad?
Where's the wagon going?
I think the wagon is good.
Doesn't matter.
We're going to get back on thewagon of this conversation.
And Um, yeah, talk about likehow do you actually do that and
I think that, based on myexperience and also based on
the, based on the, uh, theresearch, once you actually
start studying your targetlanguage again, if you can get
(30:18):
over that affective, uh, kind ofroadblock that says, Oh, you
know, I want to, but I'm guiltythat I haven't for a while.
So I'll just.
I just will continue not doingit because that'll make me feel
less guilty somehow, that's howour brains work.
Um, you know, once you startstudying your language, that
target language again, Um,you'll probably be surprised by
(30:40):
how much you actually do stillremember.
Um, and if, if not right away,you'll be surprised how quickly
it comes back to you.
Um, but even, even so, I willsay that just, it might sound a
little tedious, But it's a goodidea to go back to the very
beginning and review everything.
Even if it feels too easy, evenif you're like, Oh, I already
(31:02):
know what, how to say, because Iwatch community, there's a whole
song about it.
Um, you know, even then, even ifyou already know, and, and, and,
uh, Yoroshiku onegai shimasu Iremember that one That was good
What does that one mean?
(31:23):
Like, be nice to me?
Yeah, pretty much Okay, that'snice That's better than, I feel
like, how, uh, we greet eachother Which is just like, hey,
what's up Please be nice to meAnyway, um, yeah, it's a good
idea to go back, revieweverything Um, and a big reason
for that is because pretty oftenconcepts in a language that are
(31:47):
more complex, you know, stuffyou learn later, like in
Spanish, the subjunctive.
They are based on simplerconcepts within the language.
So, for example, uh, in Spanish,certain subjunctive forms, like,
you know, the, uh, She'sscratching herself now.
(32:08):
She's just making as much noiseas she possibly can.
She's going to town.
Go lay down.
Anyway.
Um, like the uh, imperfect Nowshe's trying to climb up in
Marina's chair.
Just go lie on your bed.
Anyway.
Um, the imperfect plural thirdperson.
(32:31):
Um, like for example, tu viera,which means like It's hard to
explain what a subjunctivemeans, like a translation,
because usually it's part of aphrase.
But like, um, Si tuviera, like,if I were Actually, no, that's
not right.
It's kind of right, depending onwho you're talking to, but Um,
(32:55):
no, yeah, it is right.
Si tuviera like, if I had, but Idon't, but if I did.
Si tuviera, um Actually, that'sthe imperfect singular first
person.
Point is, the form is based onOkay, now I remember.
The form is based on the thirdperson plural, um, preterite.
(33:16):
So, tuvieron is, uh, is they hadin the past, not anymore.
And yo, si yo tuviera is like ifI, if I had, if I were to have,
um, you know, it's based on theform.
And so even if you're like, Oh,I already know all the present,
or I already know the preterite,even the past tense.
(33:37):
Um, so I'm just going to skipright to the subjunctive, you
know, you'll have an easier timeremembering and then relearning
the subjunctive if you rememberthat, Oh, right.
All of the, um, or most of the,uh, present subjunctive forms
are based on.
The present indicative firstperson singular.
(33:58):
For one very specific example,but that goes for a lot of
things in language.
Another one is like Chinese, ifyou're um, If you're coming back
to Chinese from a long break,it's a good idea to review and
make sure that you remember andlearn, um, you know, radicals
and like simple characters,because a lot of more complex
characters are made up of thosesimpler characters.
(34:19):
And you'll have a much easiertime Um, one, recognizing what
they mean, maybe even, like,pronouncing them, and also just
being able to write them withthe proper stroke order if you
know, like, the more basicradicals that they're made up
of.
For some very specific examples.
and also, you know, these The,these early reviews of like
(34:39):
reviewing really early conceptsthat you already knew.
Um, these are just easy wins.
Which, if you're learningsomething, you're constantly
fighting a battle againstyourself.
Um, the part of you that justsays like, Oh, you know, this
sucks, I'm not good at this, I'mjust, I just want to quit, you
know.
The Oscar, the grouch that livesinside all of us.
There's two wolves in you.
(35:00):
Um, And, you know, these areeasy wins to feed the good wolf
that says, good job, you'redoing a good job, and that can
boost your motivation to keepgoing.
Marina (35:09):
Yeah, because, you know, it is, it does feel overwhelming
to think about starting, quoteunquote, over.
You're not really starting overbecause you're going to, it's
almost like a big review sessionwhere early on you're going to
be like, yeah, I know all this,and it'll still be valuable to
review.
Um, and then when you do startgetting closer and closer to
(35:32):
where you were before the break,you will be in a much better
spot than if you just dove incold without having done any
review.
Exactly, because like,
Jeremiah (35:42):
I'm not a neuroscientist, but my
understanding, if you've heardthe expression neural pathways,
um, in your brain, when youlearn things, it's creating,
like you can imagine them, aspathways within your brain.
Your brain, um, that kind ofstore that information and the
thicker and stronger and moreextensive those pathways are the
(36:02):
better your memory of whateverthat is.
And so even when you forgetstuff, um, the structures in
your brain, even if they withera little, even if they wither
from like disuse kind of thesame way that your muscles are
not as big if you don'texercise, um, you will never go
back short of like a braininjury.
(36:23):
You'll never go back to whatyour brain was like structurally
before you started learning thelanguage.
Like, structures in your brainwill always exist for most of
the rest of your life, like Isaid, unless you have a brain
injury or some kind of illness.
Um, At least the nubs of thoseneurons will be there.
Um, you know, brain surgeons cantell me that it's more
(36:46):
complicated than that, but for alayman's understanding, which is
all I have, I think that'saccurate enough for our
purposes.
Marina (36:53):
Speaking of neural pathways, um, a really common
thing that comes up in languagelearning but also just like
learning in general andmemorizing, um, is spaced
repetition.
Jeremiah (37:06):
Yeah, you might have heard about this, especially if
you've taken like a psych classor anything really.
Marina (37:11):
Yeah, this is a fantastic way of, optimizing
your learning for long termmemory and retention.
Jeremiah (37:19):
Yeah, most language learning apps, most digital
flashcard apps, um, probablyincluding Quizlet, I think, but
Memrise, I think Duolingo, um,pretty much all of those are
based on, or they use a spacedrepetition algorithm, probably a
proprietary one.
(37:40):
That the basic idea of spacedrepetition is it's kind of what
it sounds like where you don'tjust like learn something once
and then hope to hold on to it.
You learn it and then you reviewit pretty soon after that.
And then you review it again,but like with a longer gap.
And you keep doing that untilthe gaps between when you review
(38:02):
them are so long that youeffectively just like.
thing.
Um, and that's based on sciencethat shows like what reviewing
information does like in yourbrain and for your attention and
stuff, which I'll go over indepth actually.
Um, so yeah, space repetition,it works like this.
You know, when you learnsomething new, there is a wrap,
(38:24):
like if you can imagine a graphwhere when you first learned
something within seconds, Orwithin minutes, the percentage
of what you retain and thelikelihood that you're going to
retain any one little piece ofthing, um, starts to drop
rapidly, almost immediately.
So, for example, if you'resitting in class and you're
(38:45):
introduced to a new verbconjugation or a new vocabulary
word, or, you know, a wholevocabulary list, and you look it
over, you look at it once, andyou look at each word and you're
like, okay, this means that,that means this.
By the time the class is over,there's a really good chance
that you've already forgotten.
Probably all of what you learnedif at least most of what you
learned or you're at leaststarting to you're very far
(39:06):
along on the path of forgettingmost of that information because
you've only looked at it onceand the way that your brain
decides to remember thingstypically is based on importance
and association.
So, um, you know, if, uh, that'skind of why if you have like a
traumatic experience or just anykind of information that's
associated with a strongemotion.
(39:28):
Um, that tells your brain, thisis important.
This is important informationfor my survival.
I better not forget.
Um, and so, you know, that's amechanism that your brain uses
to filter out unnecessary stuffso it doesn't waste space inside
your brain.
Remembering, like, how manysteps there are on the flight of
stairs up to your apartment orwhatever.
Um, and language, the problemwith it is that there's really
(39:51):
nothing telling your brain, hey,this is important.
Hold onto this.
It's not like a decision thatyou can make.
It's kind of an automaticprocess.
So you have to do work or youhave to use like a spaced
repetition algorithm to convinceyour brain to hold on to that
information is kind of one wayto put it.
So, um, like I said, by the timethe class is over, you've
(40:11):
probably forgotten most of whatyou've learned or you're
starting to, but if you thenreview it later that day, and
this goes for anything, this cango for like any other class
you're taking, whatever.
If you review it later that day,right?
Look over your notes, do yourflashcards or whatever.
Not only does that reset yourretention to the level it was in
the first few seconds after youoriginally learned it, which is
like a hundred percent, but thespeed that you forget that
(40:34):
information is actually slowerafter reviewing it that first
time.
Um, just a few hours after itwas first introduced, you forget
it slower than you did after youfirst learned it.
Like the rate of decline, therate of attrition is lower.
Um, but if you leave it there,that's a problem because the
rate of attrition is stillfairly high.
(40:55):
Like you'll forget most of itwithin a few days.
Um, but if the next day, like aday later or two days later, you
review it again, not only willyou reset your retention to that
maximum again, but you will thenforget it even slower.
The rate of attrition will beeven lower and you will forget
less of it.
So the bottom of your attrition,like the most you could possibly
(41:19):
forget.
Um, is lower each time, right?
So, if you just learn it onceand never review it again,
you'll forget all of it.
If you learn it and then reviewit a couple hours later, you
might only forget like 90 or 80percent of it.
And then if you review it acouple days after that, you
might forget only 60 percent ofit.
(41:39):
And 40 percent of it is likelocked in.
So there are kind of a lot ofdata points floating around
here.
Um, but the point is, Each timeyou review it, first of all you
review it At greater intervals,and then each time you forget it
slower, and you retain more.
And that's why it's calledspaced repetition.
Because the space between yourreview sessions gets longer
(41:59):
every time.
And if you keep it up, firstafter a few hours, then after a
day or two, then after a week,Two weeks, and then a month.
By the time you do that review amonth later, the likelihood that
you will fully retain theinformation, or at least almost
all of it, um, is very, veryhigh.
And the speed that you willforget it drops to, not zero,
never zero, but it can drop toeffectively zero.
(42:22):
In the sense that you nowfunctionally know that
information and can recall itSort of at will and then every
time you recall it after thatfor use you're basically
reviewing it So that's yourinformation in your brain.
It's not going anywhere for themost part unless you Don't use
it for years So yeah, you'llprobably remember most of that
(42:44):
information for months if notyears afterwards
Marina (42:48):
Yeah, I mean, there's definitely still words that I
think that we both remember insome of our lost languages.
Um, there are some words inJapanese that I will never ever
forget, even if I never pick itup again.
You know, I think that's alwaysgoing to be the case.
And I think that goes back towhat we were talking about
earlier, too, where the moreadvanced you are in a language
(43:11):
before your break, the moreyou're going to retain.
I think that's because there'smore of that stuff in your long
term memory, whether you didspaced repetition or not.
Spaced repetition is just a coolway to get it into your long
term memory.
Jeremiah (43:25):
Yeah, and a scientifically proven way, you
can think of it as optimizationbecause obviously, you know,
there are lots of ways that youcan review.
And there isn't necessarily aperfect formula, because
everybody's a little bitdifferent and your rate of
attrition might be differentthan somebody else's with the
same amount of review.
(43:47):
But you know, that's kind of oneof the overriding theories
behind most language learningsoftware is that it uses some
kind of spaced repetition.
Marina (43:55):
thanks for breaking that down.
Yeah.
Um, so we've talked about.
Going back to basics andreviewing what you've learned,
ideally using space repetitionto optimize it for long term
memory and retention.
But also, because you're jumpingback into a language that you
haven't learned in a while,you're more likely to drop off
(44:18):
again.
Um, and so, if you're wanting toprevent that, you There, you
have to think about somestrategies that are going to
work for you to stop that fromhappening.
Um, what, you know, we're, we'retalking about accountability,
um, staying consistent, stayingcommitted, um, how to take
(44:40):
breaks without losing progress,like we were talking about,
like, once you sit down, it'shard to stand up again.
So, the way that I think aboutit, that's been helpful for me,
is that it needs to become ahabit again.
So, like, when you're taking alanguage class, your habit or
your routine is going to class.
(45:01):
It's doing your homework.
It's reading a chapter in thetextbook every week, whatever it
is.
Um, when you lose that, um, orif you're totally self studying,
It's hard to have the selfaccountability to do that again,
studying every day or everyother day, um, practicing
(45:21):
regularly, consuming input inthe target language voluntarily,
not for a homework assignment.
Like, that can be tough, andit's tough to rebuild a habit
like that, but that's what'sgoing to keep you consistent.
and help you make progresstowards your goal.
Um, so, implementing some kindof accountability tool is going
(45:47):
to be really important.
Um, maybe that's finding, um, alanguage partner, a friend, um,
a co worker, it could be atutor, if that's something that
you're able to do.
Talking to peers, joining aclub, something like that.
That sort of mimics theaccountability of a classroom.
(46:09):
If taking a class is notsomething that you're interested
or able to do.
Um, so finding someaccountability, that's good in
general for any kind of languagelearning situation, but it's
especially important in theearly stages of jumping back
into a language.
And then once you're kind of atthat point, you also want to
(46:31):
make sure that your plan issustainable for long term
learning.
So you want to make sure thatyou're, you don't want to dive
in doing like five hours ofstudy a day, seven days a week,
because that's going to drop offimmediately.
(46:51):
Um, and so you want to scaleback at least at first.
Maybe you study, like, once ortwice a week when you have time.
Don't learn new concepts.
Focus totally on review.
Um, but, you know, continue topractice what you've learned at
least a little bit so your braindoesn't discard that information
(47:12):
like Jeremiah was talking about.
Um, which is what happens whenyou don't use it for a long
time.
Um, you know.
Like we were talking aboutearlier, people can even lose
their first language in thisway, not so much when you're an
adult, but it does happen.
Um, so.
Jeremiah (47:29):
And you know, I've, I've talked to people who've,
you know, English speakers who,first language English speakers,
who have lived abroad for a longperiod of time, and even as
adults, they'll report that, um,they notice it becoming harder
to recall even basic words fromEnglish, from their first
language.
Um, so, you know, just becausesomething is your first language
(47:51):
doesn't necessarily mean thatit's safe.
Marina (47:55):
Nothing is safe.
That's
Jeremiah (47:56):
right.
Nothing is safe from your ownbrain's Oh my god.
Nothing is safe from your ownbrain's impulse to throw things
away.
It's one of these minimalistgirlies that is insistent on,
like, getting rid of anythingthat doesn't spark joy.
Marina (48:13):
Yeah.
So yeah, I think that thatsummarizes kind of the main
strategies.
I think, you know, the specifictechniques that you use aren't
going to be very different fromthe techniques that you use for
any type of language learningsituation.
I think that's just the overallmessage is going to be.
Be patient and kind to yourself,go slow and steady, and it'll
(48:37):
come back to you faster than youthink.
Jeremiah (48:39):
Yeah, and because of that, it wasn't a waste because
you haven't lost it.
It's just kind of dusty, it'skind of rusted over, you know,
The tires are flat and there's ahole in the I don't actually
know anything about cars But youknow, you ever see like a really
old car That hasn't been touchedin a while.
It's probably got some problemsprobably not drivable anymore,
but It can be restored to itsformer glory a lot more easily
(49:03):
than building a whole new car,right?
Marina (49:05):
Yeah, I don't this whole conversation has made me a
Little more motivated to pick upJapanese
Jeremiah (49:12):
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think if you started studying
Japanese again, even at amoderate rate, you would
probably get back to where youwere pretty quickly.
Like, honestly, this is myclaim, I would say that if
you're picking up a languagelike that, that you haven't
studied in a while, you will getback to where you were in a
fraction of the time that ittook you to get there the first
time.
Marina (49:33):
Yeah, totally.
I don't think it'll take methree years to get back to where
I was with Japanese.
Exactly.
So I should just, I should juststart.
Jeremiah (49:40):
Yeah.
Yoroshiku onegai
Marina (49:41):
shimasu.
Jeremiah (49:45):
Good start.
Thank you for tuning in to Howto Language.
We hope we've inspired you topick up that old language that
you haven't studied since highschool or reconnect with your
first language that you haven'tspoken in years.
It's never too late to recoverthe knowledge you built the
first time around and you willhonestly be surprised at how
(50:05):
much you remember if you juststart putting in the effort
again.
Marina (50:09):
If you like what we do, you can rate and review us on
your preferred podcast app andfollow us on Instagram at
HowToLang for updates on futureepisodes and other fun stuff.
Thanks for listening.
Bye.
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to How to Language,
a show about remembering, um, Iforget.
Marina (00:15):
Today on How to Language, we'll be addressing a
question that we've heard acouple times from fans, which
is, I learned X language in highschool or college, but I haven't
used it in a long time, and Idon't really remember it.
Is it possible for me to pick itup again, or do I have to start
all over?
Fortunately, you probably don'thave to start from square one.
(00:36):
But it will require some extraeffort on your part, kind of
like cold starting an oldlawnmower.
We'll look at some of the theorybehind memory and forgetting as
it applies to languageretention.
Then we'll offer some practicaladvice on how to prevent
forgetting before it starts, andrecover forgotten knowledge if
you're picking up an oldlanguage again after a
(00:57):
significant period away.
Jeremiah (01:04):
alright, so as we often do on this show, maybe
let's take a little while tojust talk about our own
experiences with this, which Ifeel like anyone who has You
know, in the past, studied alanguage or learned a language,
even if you knew it really well,but then spent some time away
from it, as we often do, youknow, life happens.
Um, I think we'll all have theshared experience of having
(01:25):
forgot, unfortunately forgotten,some or maybe even all of what
we once knew about our targetlanguage.
So, you know, that's anexperience I've had.
I know that's an experience thatyou've had, Marina.
So, I'll throw it over to youfirst, and then I'll jump in.
Um, what has been yourexperience with, You know,
forgetting, or, yeah, just, youknow, forgetting parts or even
(01:48):
all of a language that you'vestudied in the past.
Because I know you've studiedJapanese, I know you've studied
Latin, just like me, and I knowthat you haven't Really touched
either of those in a little bit.
Um, I did get you some Japanesebooks for, uh, for Christmas a
couple years ago that you didn'treally look at, but, you know, I
don't, I don't hold that againstyou, I've, I've learned since
then that books are notnecessarily the best Christmas
(02:08):
presents, but, um, you know,hopefully you'll take another
stab at, maybe after listeningto our episode, you'll take
another stab at those.
Marina (02:15):
Honestly, yeah, cause every time I think about
Japanese, I get really sad,because I really enjoyed
learning Japanese.
I think.
Oh my god, I started in collegeand I, I took Japanese classes
for like, I think three years.
I did a study abroad program onesummer when I was in college
(02:37):
where I took an intensiveJapanese course.
But then after I did that, Inever took another Japanese
class again because I got caughtup in You know, trying to
graduate, and, and then thepandemic happened, and I just
never did anything formal withJapanese again.
And I think that's an experiencethat a lot of people have,
(02:58):
because they learned a languageby taking a class.
Maybe that was in high school,maybe that was in college, maybe
that was, you know In anotherthird party environment or
whatever.
And you stop taking classes andthen you're no longer in an
environment where you need to beusing the language.
(03:19):
And then you just like, don'tever again.
Which is sad, because, I mean,at least for me, I feel kind of
guilty about it on a certainlevel.
Just, you know, I feel like Ilet myself down by Now, I don't
think this is true, but, like, Ido feel this way where I feel
(03:41):
like it was all a waste if Idon't start learning Japanese
again and start using it again,um, because I really valued
those experiences and so there'sa lot of, like, emotion tied up
in it in addition to just, like,when I do think about Japanese
or try to speak Japanese, I, Ifeel really bummed out by how
much I don't remember.
(04:02):
Especially when it's reallybasic stuff, like we're
forgetting basic verbs,forgetting basic nouns, um, it
can be very demoralizing andthat makes me not want to do it.
And so, yeah, that's been myexperience with it.
Um, Latin, I don't, I don'tremember anything and I don't
(04:22):
really feel bad about it.
Sorry.
Jeremiah (04:27):
That's fair.
Um, yeah, you know, youmentioned that For you, and I
think also for a lot of otherpeople, once you stop taking the
class, like the class in school,if you took a language in
school, um, that's really yourreason for coming back to it,
because you have to.
So there's a lot of built inaccountability, which we've
(04:47):
talked about previously, Ithink, and this is kind of the
flip side of that, which is thatif you've been relying on that
accountability of a class and,you know, a group of other
learners who Um, are sharingthat experience with you and
then all of a sudden, you're nottaking those classes anymore.
You're focusing on somethingelse or you've graduated or
whatever happens.
Um, you are now really the onlyone who's responsible for you
(05:13):
continuing to do that learning.
And You know, combining thatwith the fact that, you know, if
you're not taking those classesanymore, it might be because of
a significant life change, likeyou've graduated, you're
working, whatever.
Um, so it can be a really bigupset to your routine, and so it
can be really easy to fall offthe wagon at that point, I
think.
Um, so that's reallyunderstandable.
I think that happened to me toowith Spanish, and um, I never
(05:36):
really took Latin classes, butyou know, um,
Marina (05:39):
oh yeah, like it doesn't.
It's not always like a classroomcontext, either, that triggers a
break.
I think that's just reallycommon.
But, with yourself studying alanguage, the sort of quote
unquote break that you're takingmight be a little bit more
fuzzy, like the boundary is alittle more fuzzy.
Um, because you don't have abuilt in accountability system
(06:01):
necessarily.
You just kind of stop forwhatever reason, or slow down
for whatever reason.
Um, but it can still happen evenif you weren't ever taking a
class.
Jeremiah (06:13):
Yeah, and it's definitely sad, no matter what,
because I get what you meanabout it feeling like a waste.
Um, it feels like you invested aton of time and effort into
something, and, you know, peoplesay use it or lose it, and
there's definitely some truth tothat, which is that, you know,
you've put all this work intoit, and if you're not using it,
it's like it just kind of goes,it seems like it just goes down
(06:35):
the drain.
Um, and it's a bummer, and youmentioned that.
It makes you sad, and so itmakes you not want to pick it up
again, because you'll just bereminded of that feeling.
So, it kind of raises a bit ofan affective barrier to getting
back into it, because there'slike, um, some Catholic guilt
about forgetting your targetlanguage.
(06:58):
So yeah, I can definitely relateto that.
Do you have any otherexperiences to share about that?
Um,
Marina (07:06):
at least for now.
I think I'll talk about somemore stuff later, but that's
kind of it for the intro.
Jeremiah (07:11):
Yeah, and I definitely had similar, similar
experiences, I think, withparticularly Spanish, because
that's the one that I just kindof found myself sticking with
throughout college.
Not even by any sort of plan oridea of what I wanted to do with
that.
I was just like, Oh, yeah, Iguess I'll take Spanish again.
(07:31):
Every quarter I was like, Oh, Ineed a class to take.
Oh, that's okay.
She can be in the podcast.
Our dog just did a little shakeanyway.
Um, you know, every quarter Iwas like, Oh, I guess I'll take
Spanish again, um, sort ofmuddling along, but I enjoyed it
and I got a lot out of it.
Marina (07:49):
You accidentally became fluent in Spanish.
Jeremiah (07:52):
Yeah, I guess literally just cause I had
nothing better to do.
Um, but I'm glad I did.
And I feel like.
We'll talk about this a littlebit later, but I feel like I've
retained a pretty good amount ofit, and we'll talk about why.
Um, but even so, you know, Ifeel a similar sense of guilt.
Um, you know, any time I'm in asituation where I feel like
(08:14):
Spanish would be useful, and I'mlike, I have it, but I'm kind of
embarrassed about, like, whereMy, like where my level has kind
of sunk to as a result of notconsistently practicing it all
the time.
And so it makes me not want touse it.
Sort of like how you feel aboutJapanese.
(08:36):
Um, so yeah, I can definitelyrelate to that.
And then Latin was a differentstory because like I said, I
never took classes for it and itwas really just like my own
impetus to keep going with itjust purely for the vibes I
guess.
And That is, you know, whenyou're doing that, it's really
easy to just stop and not evenbecause you do it consciously.
(08:57):
So often I think it's just thatlike, you get into a routine and
then something happens.
It can be like a really smallthing, like you go on a trip or
you get sick and it just for acouple of days messes up your
routine.
And then it's so easy to notstart again.
Um, you know, for that reason,it's kind of like.
Once you, if you're standing upfor a really long time, it's,
(09:20):
you can kind of keep going.
But once you sit down, you know,it's really hard to get back up.
Yeah.
Um, all of our older listeners Ithink will appreciate that.
Um, so yeah, I would say I havehad similar experiences in that
regard.
Gotta take a break, take a breakto pet the dog.
Marina (09:40):
She needs a lovey.
Jeremiah (09:42):
She needs a microphone.
Marina (09:43):
You need to love it.
Like, uh, have you ever learneda language and then took a
break?
Jeremiah (09:48):
Oh, she doesn't even speak English.
You don't speak English?
Marina (09:51):
What are you talking
Jeremiah (09:52):
about?
What are you talking
Marina (09:54):
about?
Jeremiah (09:54):
Micah, go lie down.
Go find something to do.
Let's keep that in.
Anyway.
Um, yeah.
So, okay.
Those are our experiences.
So, you know, with all that outof the way, do you want to go
ahead and introduce us to someof the theoretical framework
behind this phenomenon of likeforgetting, forgetting language,
(10:19):
like what's it, for one, what'slike the scientific term for it?
And for two, um, you know, whatare, what are kind of the forces
at play?
Because I think it's worthunderstanding those if we want
to try to combat them.
Marina (10:32):
Mm hmm.
Yeah, so the official scientificterm for this phenomenon is
called language attrition.
Jeremiah, you might be able todefine it better than me.
Jeremiah (10:43):
Yeah.
Marina (10:43):
Um, what does attrition mean?
Jeremiah (10:46):
Well, attrition is when you have, you have
something, right?
Um, it can be your language or,It's often used in like a
military context to refer to,um, or not even military, just
any like personnel situationwhere you're having people kind
of drop off for various reasons.
Like in a military context, itmight be because people are
dying.
(11:07):
And so there's a rate ofattrition of people getting, you
know, like in ancient warfare,it might even just be that
people are dying of disease moreso than battle.
Um, but you know.
Uh, like a class might have anattrition rate where over the
course of a year students arejust kind of one by one dropping
the class for whatever reason.
(11:29):
Basically you know attrition ishappening if you start out with
a certain amount of something atthe beginning and then at the
middle or at the end you haveless, right?
Right.
Um, so like your bank accountundergoes attrition throughout
the month while you're waitingfor payday.
Marina (11:43):
Yeah, so language attrition can take place for
your first language.
Um, often that happens mostlywith children.
Um, maybe they, you know, grewup, in the early years with one
language, they move into adifferent context where there's
another language that's spokenand they slowly lose their first
(12:04):
language, that would be L1language attrition, or, or L, or
just L1 attrition, but it canalso more commonly happen with
your second language, and we'llbe referring to it as L2
attrition, but this can happenfor your third language or
fourth language or any language.
We'll just use L2 to make iteasier.
(12:25):
Um, so, there's actually, like,not a lot of research on
language attrition, at least L2language attrition.
Um, it was surprisingly hard tofind studies that have looked at
this phenomenon.
But, We did kind of identify twomain theories about, not
(12:50):
necessarily why it happens,because I think that it sort of
boils down to just the fact thatlanguage has a component of
memory, and memory, when it'snot exercised for a long time,
does tend to go away, right?
Um, because Language is gonna bea combination, at least when
(13:11):
you're learning a language, it'sgonna be a combination of short
term and long term memory.
Where you activate your shortterm memory to learn new things.
You activate your short termmemory to learn new things, like
new vocabulary, but Eventually,hopefully, that becomes a part
of your long term memory.
(13:31):
Um, but, you know, if you don'tuse it, you lose it, and it
eventually goes away.
That's essentially what it boilsdown to.
Jeremiah (13:39):
Yeah, and even long term memory, um, even that can
have attrition.
Marina (13:45):
Oh, yeah.
Which we'll talk about.
Exactly.
Um, but, when it comes to, like,what that actually looks like,
When we're talking aboutlanguage attrition specifically,
there are two kind of maintheories.
Uh, one of them is sort of lastin, first out.
Much like in the big techcompanies that are having
(14:07):
layoffs right now.
Um, the idea is that the lastthing that you learned before
your, before your break, isgonna be the first thing to go.
So, if the last unit in yourJapanese class was imperatives,
um, and then over summer break,you're probably gonna have a
(14:30):
really hard time rememberingimperatives when you come back
in fall semester.
So, that's the idea of, like,the last in, first out.
And So if you follow that allthe way to its logical
conclusion, the idea is that youjust go backwards from where you
(14:50):
last left off, all the way backto the beginning.
So the first thing you lose isgoing to be the last thing you
learned, and then the one thatyou learned before that is going
to go, and the one before thatis going to go, all the way
back.
That's kind of the, sort ofregression hypothesis.
Jeremiah (15:05):
Which seems kind of, um, I don't know, Idealist to me
in the sense that Um, I don'tknow, I'm a little suspicious of
that particular formulation.
Just because it's like, it's toomechanical and nothing about
your brain is mechanical.
Marina (15:21):
I agree.
Jeremiah (15:22):
Um, I don't, I'm not contradicting you or anything,
but.
Marina (15:24):
No, I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just saying
what the theory is.
Jeremiah (15:28):
Yeah, I know.
Well, is there like a, would yousay there's a better, um, or
maybe more competitive theory?
Marina (15:35):
Yeah, so one that sort of came out of that last in
first out theory is the bestlearned last out theory, which.
Is also sometimes, you couldsort of rephrase it as, the more
you know, the less you lose.
So, the idea is that there arecertain, maybe words, or grammar
(15:56):
structures, or things like that,idioms, that you probably know
better than others.
Maybe you use those words morefrequently, they just come up
more, they're maybe more common,things like that.
The more embedded it is in yourmemory, the less likely you are
to lose it during periods oflanguage attrition.
(16:18):
Which makes more sense.
Yeah.
It's also probably a combinationof these two ideas.
Yeah, if you learn somethingmore recently.
It's more likely to be forgottenbecause it hasn't fully cooked
yet into your long term memory.
Jeremiah (16:34):
Yeah, you just have probably haven't reviewed it as
much.
Marina (16:37):
Yeah, exactly, but it doesn't, I don't, I'm also
suspicious of like this verylike regimented regression.
Mm hmm.
Um, that the first theory kindof suggests, so it's most likely
a little bit of a combination ofthose two things.
Jeremiah (16:49):
Yeah, and building off of best learned, last out, I'll
propose, I'll, I'll pose to youlike the analogy that's kind of
forming in my head, which iskind of based on my experience
with Spanish, particularly,which is that, um, specifically,
like you said, the more, youknow, the less you lose.
And I almost think there's likea, um, this is going to sound
(17:13):
really stupid, but like a, agravitational, um, You know, not
literally, but like you canimagine that inside your mind,
um, as you're learning language,like if you just learn a little
bit, then there's not a lot tolike link those bits of separate
knowledge of like differentgrammar rules and different
(17:35):
lexical items, vocabulary itemsto link those together.
And so the structure in yourbrain that's forming of the
language is just a lot less kindof.
Um, dense, I guess, and, and,um, stable.
And so, there's less holding ittogether, so it's easier for
pieces to kind of fly away.
(17:55):
Whereas the more you learn, um,and the more you kind of
consolidate That, that growing,like, I almost imagine like a,
like a ball of stuff of likelanguage stuff.
Kind of like, um, I don't knowif you know how like planets
form, but I'm sorry, I'm sorry,I'm sorry.
I don't know if you know howplanets form, um, but you know,
(18:15):
a long, long time ago, uh, the,the earth was like a bunch of
separate like bits of rock andspace dust and ice and stuff in
space, right?
Um, and the more of it that kindof coalesced in one place, the
more mass it had, and so themore gravity it had, and so it
could suck in even more things,more and more and more.
And so the more there is, themore stuff gets sucked towards
(18:38):
it, and the less is lost.
And I picture like a similarthing happening in your brain,
where if you already know a lotof the language, and you learn
just one extra word or just oneextra grammar concept.
Because of this kind of likeimaginary gravitational effect,
you're more likely to hold on tothat new piece.
If you already know a lot versusif you don't already know a lot,
(19:01):
there's like kind of lessholding it there in the system
overall.
And it's easier for it to kindof float away.
That's my head cannon based onmy experience.
Um, and a little bit based on,you know, the best learned last
out, um, theory, but I couldjust be like, totally.
Talking crazy, I don't
Marina (19:18):
know.
I mean, you are, but also, Yourtheory is, your headcanon is
also supported by theliterature.
Um, the more advanced you are inyour target language, the less
you're going to lose duringperiods of attrition.
Jeremiah (19:34):
Exactly, and that's been my experience with Spanish,
is there are things that I wouldthink that I would have lost,
but that are still almost likemuscle memory for me.
Right.
Even if they're things that Ilearned more recently,
relatively, than like, Dóndeestá la biblioteca?
Like, that's like, first thingyou learn, right?
Um, whereas subjunctive stuff,even, is still pretty solid in
(19:56):
there, even though it's morerecent, which would seem to kind
of contradict a little bit thelast in, first out, um, idea.
That's just my experience,though.
You're, uh, you know.
Marina (20:07):
Oh, yeah.
No, you're, you're, you're spoton there.
Um, there are, like, variables.
That come into play when itcomes to L2 attrition.
Um, and overall aptitude andcompetency in the language
before the break starts is ahuge one.
Um, so, you know, more advancedlearners are, are, are more
(20:30):
likely to retain more, um, overtime.
There are a few other variablesthat seem to also impact this.
One of them is going to beLiteracy and just overall
education level.
So if you have, if you'reliterate in your L2, then you're
(20:50):
more likely to retain thelanguage.
If you have, more education ingeneral, that's also an
indicator.
I'm not sure exactly what theimplications of that are.
It probably has to do withliteracy and just, I don't know,
overall academic preparedness.
I'm not exactly sure.
Um.
So, those are, um, I don't know,just interesting things to know.
(21:15):
Um, and then, when attritionactually does happen, regardless
of, like, what order, order itgoes in, um, there are some
interesting things about, like,what that actually looks like.
Um, so for example, This issomething that's supported by
the literature and also justanecdotally.
(21:36):
I think a lot of people willexperience this Which is that
your productive skills are morelikely to a trit than your
receptive skills, so You knowYou hear this from everybody but
like, you know, oh I can stillunderstand Spanish, but I can't
speak it anymore Right becausethey took it in high school This
(22:00):
is super common where yourspeaking and your writing
abilities might be a lot, theymight suffer a lot more than
your, like, reading andlistening skills.
Jeremiah (22:11):
Yeah, I would, I would, I've definitely heard
that from people, um, and Iwould say.
That's been my experience aswell.
I don't, hold on a second, Iwant to look up and see if a
trit is a word.
Marina (22:23):
I did look it up before because I wanted to know what
the verb was.
Really?
You can say a trit or a trite.
Jeremiah (22:30):
What?
Marina (22:30):
I know.
Jeremiah (22:31):
I've never heard that before in my life.
Right?
That's crazy.
If you're, uh, if you'relearning English and you just
learned that, Good luckretaining that.
Good luck retaining a trit or atrite in your, unless you
already know a lot of Englishand then Chances are you'll
remember it.
And even if you don't you'remore likely to remember
receptively Than productively.
(22:53):
Yeah.
Summary there for you.
Marina (22:55):
In some of the articles I was reading they even uses the
word a tritter
Jeremiah (23:00):
No a tritter
Marina (23:03):
Like
Jeremiah (23:03):
sounds like a slur
Marina (23:06):
I like to talk about students who are experiencing
language attrition.
Oh,
Jeremiah (23:11):
okay.
I was like, that doesn't soundlike any verb I've ever heard.
I'm like, a tritter?
I hardly know her.
Marina (23:17):
Such a weird word.
So yeah.
Um.
So, productive versus receptive,um, so that might have
implications for strategies forpicking up the language again,
which we'll talk about later.
Um, and then another interestingtidbit that I found was that,
(23:41):
um, your vocabulary is morelikely to, go during language
attrition than things likegrammar.
Um, so, you know, which I guessmakes sense because grammar is a
lot more abstract.
What am I trying to say?
(24:07):
Like I think that this, I thinkthis makes sense because
vocabulary is sort of likediscreet units that you have to
memorize.
Yeah.
Which I feel like might be moresusceptible to language loss or
just, you know, forgetting ingeneral.
Whereas grammar is more of likea system that you sort of just,
(24:32):
you, like you said earlier, islike muscle memory.
Jeremiah (24:35):
I have another crazy analogy for you.
Oh boy.
Just to capture this.
Okay.
Which is, okay, check this out.
Um, You can memorize a bunch ofdifferent, like, car makes and
models, right?
Like, the Mazda Miata RFKJR22 orwhatever, right?
You can memorize, like, a bunchof those, like, like one of
(24:57):
those people who, like,memorizes all the different
types of tanks.
Mm hmm.
But you can forget that reallyeasily, especially if you're
not, like, Constantly like a carperson who's looking at it all
the time.
Mm-hmm But it's a lot harder toforget how to drive, huh?
Hmm.
Huh.
Marina (25:14):
That's pretty good.
Jeremiah (25:16):
I'm proud of that one.
Marina (25:18):
Yeah.
So there you go.
however, um.
In looking at the research, itlooks like, potentially, there
might be exceptions to that,like, for example, idioms, you
know, sort of set phrases,things like that, are also more
likely to be retained, versus,individual vocabulary words,
(25:39):
which I think also makes sensefor the same analogy that you
kind of used.
I think things like set phrasesand chunks and things like that
are more likely to be retained.
Jeremiah (25:51):
She's not even wet.
I don't know why she's shakingso much.
Anyway.
Marina (25:55):
She's trying to get our attention.
Jeremiah (25:56):
Yeah, I guess.
Marina (25:59):
Um.
Jeremiah (26:00):
I'm glad you said chunks because I was just
thinking that.
I was like, why would it be thatlike formulas, expressions,
idioms, like what do all thesehave to do with each other?
And I was like, oh, they're all,they're all chunks.
And we're constantly talkingabout how chunks are easier to
learn and remember.
than words, and I think part ofit is because a chunk, um,
(26:22):
typically, or probably almostalways says something about the
grammar of the language, um, ithas at least one, but maybe
multiple grammar rules bakedinto it, usually, you know, for
idioms, it's, it's possible thatit's like.
Not as true, because idioms canhave grammatical forms that are
(26:43):
no longer productive, which isjust a linguistic y way of
saying that, like, people don'treally say, talk that way
anymore, except in that idiom.
It's like a Kind of archaic,
Marina (26:54):
yeah.
Jeremiah (26:54):
Can you think of any examples of that?
Marina (26:56):
In English?
Yeah.
Um, the
Jeremiah (27:09):
Be that as it may.
It's a set phrase.
It uses, like, an Englishsubjunctive, and we don't really
use be in that way in productiveways anymore, even though we
used to.
Yeah,
Marina (27:23):
that's a good example.
Jeremiah (27:24):
Good example, yeah.
Um, speaking of remembering,like, chunks and idioms, I'm
wondering if you remember anychunks, any idioms, set phrases
or expressions from Japanesethat are, like, especially clear
in your mind that can kind of,um, be data or evidence for
this?
Marina (27:59):
No, I probably do.
I'm just trying to think of likeexamples.
Jeremiah (28:07):
I had a Spanish instructor who constantly in
class would say, which I barelyeven remember what it means, but
I remember it really clearly inmy mind or, you know, let's see.
Um, so now like whenever I'mtalking in Spanish and I'm, And
I'm like not sure what I'msaying or I just need a second
(28:30):
to think.
I'll be like, mmm, almost a bit.
Which doesn't really make sense.
It's like a verbal verbal tickof mine, I guess.
Marina (28:37):
Yeah.
I don't know.
I mean, there's a lot of likeset phrases in Japanese like um,
you know all all the differentgreetings that you do like
itekimasu, itterashai Thingslike that which have grammar
baked into them Uh, they justkind of like you just know
(28:58):
That's what you say.
Sure I don't know, my teacherswould always say, Yoku te
kimashita, which is like, goodjob.
So yeah, I think, but then,like, I, when I try and think
of, the word for, like, street,I can see the character for it,
but I don't remember how to sayit.
Jeremiah (29:19):
Yeah.
Interesting.
Marina (29:21):
Yeah.
Vamos a ver.
My Spanish teachers always saythat a lot.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay, so we've talked a bitabout the theory behind language
attrition.
But what does this all mean forthose of us who actually want to
get back on the wagon and startlearning that language again?
Jeremiah (29:39):
Is it on the wagon or off the wagon?
Marina (29:41):
Well, we want to get laughter Wasn't there like an
always sunny?
There's a Seinfeld.
Seinfeld?
Yeah.
I think on the wagon in thiscase.
Jeremiah (29:56):
Is the wagon bad?
Where's the wagon going?
I think the wagon is good.
Doesn't matter.
We're going to get back on thewagon of this conversation.
And Um, yeah, talk about likehow do you actually do that and
I think that, based on myexperience and also based on
the, based on the, uh, theresearch, once you actually
start studying your targetlanguage again, if you can get
(30:18):
over that affective, uh, kind ofroadblock that says, Oh, you
know, I want to, but I'm guiltythat I haven't for a while.
So I'll just.
I just will continue not doingit because that'll make me feel
less guilty somehow, that's howour brains work.
Um, you know, once you startstudying your language, that
target language again, Um,you'll probably be surprised by
(30:40):
how much you actually do stillremember.
Um, and if, if not right away,you'll be surprised how quickly
it comes back to you.
Um, but even, even so, I willsay that just, it might sound a
little tedious, But it's a goodidea to go back to the very
beginning and review everything.
Even if it feels too easy, evenif you're like, Oh, I already
(31:02):
know what, how to say, because Iwatch community, there's a whole
song about it.
Um, you know, even then, even ifyou already know, and, and, and,
uh, Yoroshiku onegai shimasu Iremember that one That was good
What does that one mean?
(31:23):
Like, be nice to me?
Yeah, pretty much Okay, that'snice That's better than, I feel
like, how, uh, we greet eachother Which is just like, hey,
what's up Please be nice to meAnyway, um, yeah, it's a good
idea to go back, revieweverything Um, and a big reason
for that is because pretty oftenconcepts in a language that are
(31:47):
more complex, you know, stuffyou learn later, like in
Spanish, the subjunctive.
They are based on simplerconcepts within the language.
So, for example, uh, in Spanish,certain subjunctive forms, like,
you know, the, uh, She'sscratching herself now.
(32:08):
She's just making as much noiseas she possibly can.
She's going to town.
Go lay down.
Anyway.
Um, like the uh, imperfect Nowshe's trying to climb up in
Marina's chair.
Just go lie on your bed.
Anyway.
Um, the imperfect plural thirdperson.
(32:31):
Um, like for example, tu viera,which means like It's hard to
explain what a subjunctivemeans, like a translation,
because usually it's part of aphrase.
But like, um, Si tuviera, like,if I were Actually, no, that's
not right.
It's kind of right, depending onwho you're talking to, but Um,
(32:55):
no, yeah, it is right.
Si tuviera like, if I had, but Idon't, but if I did.
Si tuviera, um Actually, that'sthe imperfect singular first
person.
Point is, the form is based onOkay, now I remember.
The form is based on the thirdperson plural, um, preterite.
(33:16):
So, tuvieron is, uh, is they hadin the past, not anymore.
And yo, si yo tuviera is like ifI, if I had, if I were to have,
um, you know, it's based on theform.
And so even if you're like, Oh,I already know all the present,
or I already know the preterite,even the past tense.
(33:37):
Um, so I'm just going to skipright to the subjunctive, you
know, you'll have an easier timeremembering and then relearning
the subjunctive if you rememberthat, Oh, right.
All of the, um, or most of the,uh, present subjunctive forms
are based on.
The present indicative firstperson singular.
(33:58):
For one very specific example,but that goes for a lot of
things in language.
Another one is like Chinese, ifyou're um, If you're coming back
to Chinese from a long break,it's a good idea to review and
make sure that you remember andlearn, um, you know, radicals
and like simple characters,because a lot of more complex
characters are made up of thosesimpler characters.
(34:19):
And you'll have a much easiertime Um, one, recognizing what
they mean, maybe even, like,pronouncing them, and also just
being able to write them withthe proper stroke order if you
know, like, the more basicradicals that they're made up
of.
For some very specific examples.
and also, you know, these The,these early reviews of like
(34:39):
reviewing really early conceptsthat you already knew.
Um, these are just easy wins.
Which, if you're learningsomething, you're constantly
fighting a battle againstyourself.
Um, the part of you that justsays like, Oh, you know, this
sucks, I'm not good at this, I'mjust, I just want to quit, you
know.
The Oscar, the grouch that livesinside all of us.
There's two wolves in you.
(35:00):
Um, And, you know, these areeasy wins to feed the good wolf
that says, good job, you'redoing a good job, and that can
boost your motivation to keepgoing.
Marina (35:09):
Yeah, because, you know, it is, it does feel overwhelming
to think about starting, quoteunquote, over.
You're not really starting overbecause you're going to, it's
almost like a big review sessionwhere early on you're going to
be like, yeah, I know all this,and it'll still be valuable to
review.
Um, and then when you do startgetting closer and closer to
(35:32):
where you were before the break,you will be in a much better
spot than if you just dove incold without having done any
review.
Exactly, because like,
Jeremiah (35:42):
I'm not a neuroscientist, but my
understanding, if you've heardthe expression neural pathways,
um, in your brain, when youlearn things, it's creating,
like you can imagine them, aspathways within your brain.
Your brain, um, that kind ofstore that information and the
thicker and stronger and moreextensive those pathways are the
(36:02):
better your memory of whateverthat is.
And so even when you forgetstuff, um, the structures in
your brain, even if they withera little, even if they wither
from like disuse kind of thesame way that your muscles are
not as big if you don'texercise, um, you will never go
back short of like a braininjury.
(36:23):
You'll never go back to whatyour brain was like structurally
before you started learning thelanguage.
Like, structures in your brainwill always exist for most of
the rest of your life, like Isaid, unless you have a brain
injury or some kind of illness.
Um, At least the nubs of thoseneurons will be there.
Um, you know, brain surgeons cantell me that it's more
(36:46):
complicated than that, but for alayman's understanding, which is
all I have, I think that'saccurate enough for our
purposes.
Marina (36:53):
Speaking of neural pathways, um, a really common
thing that comes up in languagelearning but also just like
learning in general andmemorizing, um, is spaced
repetition.
Jeremiah (37:06):
Yeah, you might have heard about this, especially if
you've taken like a psych classor anything really.
Marina (37:11):
Yeah, this is a fantastic way of, optimizing
your learning for long termmemory and retention.
Jeremiah (37:19):
Yeah, most language learning apps, most digital
flashcard apps, um, probablyincluding Quizlet, I think, but
Memrise, I think Duolingo, um,pretty much all of those are
based on, or they use a spacedrepetition algorithm, probably a
proprietary one.
(37:40):
That the basic idea of spacedrepetition is it's kind of what
it sounds like where you don'tjust like learn something once
and then hope to hold on to it.
You learn it and then you reviewit pretty soon after that.
And then you review it again,but like with a longer gap.
And you keep doing that untilthe gaps between when you review
(38:02):
them are so long that youeffectively just like.
thing.
Um, and that's based on sciencethat shows like what reviewing
information does like in yourbrain and for your attention and
stuff, which I'll go over indepth actually.
Um, so yeah, space repetition,it works like this.
You know, when you learnsomething new, there is a wrap,
(38:24):
like if you can imagine a graphwhere when you first learned
something within seconds, Orwithin minutes, the percentage
of what you retain and thelikelihood that you're going to
retain any one little piece ofthing, um, starts to drop
rapidly, almost immediately.
So, for example, if you'resitting in class and you're
(38:45):
introduced to a new verbconjugation or a new vocabulary
word, or, you know, a wholevocabulary list, and you look it
over, you look at it once, andyou look at each word and you're
like, okay, this means that,that means this.
By the time the class is over,there's a really good chance
that you've already forgotten.
Probably all of what you learnedif at least most of what you
learned or you're at leaststarting to you're very far
(39:06):
along on the path of forgettingmost of that information because
you've only looked at it onceand the way that your brain
decides to remember thingstypically is based on importance
and association.
So, um, you know, if, uh, that'skind of why if you have like a
traumatic experience or just anykind of information that's
associated with a strongemotion.
(39:28):
Um, that tells your brain, thisis important.
This is important informationfor my survival.
I better not forget.
Um, and so, you know, that's amechanism that your brain uses
to filter out unnecessary stuffso it doesn't waste space inside
your brain.
Remembering, like, how manysteps there are on the flight of
stairs up to your apartment orwhatever.
Um, and language, the problemwith it is that there's really
(39:51):
nothing telling your brain, hey,this is important.
Hold onto this.
It's not like a decision thatyou can make.
It's kind of an automaticprocess.
So you have to do work or youhave to use like a spaced
repetition algorithm to convinceyour brain to hold on to that
information is kind of one wayto put it.
So, um, like I said, by the timethe class is over, you've
(40:11):
probably forgotten most of whatyou've learned or you're
starting to, but if you thenreview it later that day, and
this goes for anything, this cango for like any other class
you're taking, whatever.
If you review it later that day,right?
Look over your notes, do yourflashcards or whatever.
Not only does that reset yourretention to the level it was in
the first few seconds after youoriginally learned it, which is
like a hundred percent, but thespeed that you forget that
(40:34):
information is actually slowerafter reviewing it that first
time.
Um, just a few hours after itwas first introduced, you forget
it slower than you did after youfirst learned it.
Like the rate of decline, therate of attrition is lower.
Um, but if you leave it there,that's a problem because the
rate of attrition is stillfairly high.
(40:55):
Like you'll forget most of itwithin a few days.
Um, but if the next day, like aday later or two days later, you
review it again, not only willyou reset your retention to that
maximum again, but you will thenforget it even slower.
The rate of attrition will beeven lower and you will forget
less of it.
So the bottom of your attrition,like the most you could possibly
(41:19):
forget.
Um, is lower each time, right?
So, if you just learn it onceand never review it again,
you'll forget all of it.
If you learn it and then reviewit a couple hours later, you
might only forget like 90 or 80percent of it.
And then if you review it acouple days after that, you
might forget only 60 percent ofit.
(41:39):
And 40 percent of it is likelocked in.
So there are kind of a lot ofdata points floating around
here.
Um, but the point is, Each timeyou review it, first of all you
review it At greater intervals,and then each time you forget it
slower, and you retain more.
And that's why it's calledspaced repetition.
Because the space between yourreview sessions gets longer
(41:59):
every time.
And if you keep it up, firstafter a few hours, then after a
day or two, then after a week,Two weeks, and then a month.
By the time you do that review amonth later, the likelihood that
you will fully retain theinformation, or at least almost
all of it, um, is very, veryhigh.
And the speed that you willforget it drops to, not zero,
never zero, but it can drop toeffectively zero.
(42:22):
In the sense that you nowfunctionally know that
information and can recall itSort of at will and then every
time you recall it after thatfor use you're basically
reviewing it So that's yourinformation in your brain.
It's not going anywhere for themost part unless you Don't use
it for years So yeah, you'llprobably remember most of that
(42:44):
information for months if notyears afterwards
Marina (42:48):
Yeah, I mean, there's definitely still words that I
think that we both remember insome of our lost languages.
Um, there are some words inJapanese that I will never ever
forget, even if I never pick itup again.
You know, I think that's alwaysgoing to be the case.
And I think that goes back towhat we were talking about
earlier, too, where the moreadvanced you are in a language
(43:11):
before your break, the moreyou're going to retain.
I think that's because there'smore of that stuff in your long
term memory, whether you didspaced repetition or not.
Spaced repetition is just a coolway to get it into your long
term memory.
Jeremiah (43:25):
Yeah, and a scientifically proven way, you
can think of it as optimizationbecause obviously, you know,
there are lots of ways that youcan review.
And there isn't necessarily aperfect formula, because
everybody's a little bitdifferent and your rate of
attrition might be differentthan somebody else's with the
same amount of review.
(43:47):
But you know, that's kind of oneof the overriding theories
behind most language learningsoftware is that it uses some
kind of spaced repetition.
Marina (43:55):
thanks for breaking that down.
Yeah.
Um, so we've talked about.
Going back to basics andreviewing what you've learned,
ideally using space repetitionto optimize it for long term
memory and retention.
But also, because you're jumpingback into a language that you
haven't learned in a while,you're more likely to drop off
(44:18):
again.
Um, and so, if you're wanting toprevent that, you There, you
have to think about somestrategies that are going to
work for you to stop that fromhappening.
Um, what, you know, we're, we'retalking about accountability,
um, staying consistent, stayingcommitted, um, how to take
(44:40):
breaks without losing progress,like we were talking about,
like, once you sit down, it'shard to stand up again.
So, the way that I think aboutit, that's been helpful for me,
is that it needs to become ahabit again.
So, like, when you're taking alanguage class, your habit or
your routine is going to class.
(45:01):
It's doing your homework.
It's reading a chapter in thetextbook every week, whatever it
is.
Um, when you lose that, um, orif you're totally self studying,
It's hard to have the selfaccountability to do that again,
studying every day or everyother day, um, practicing
(45:21):
regularly, consuming input inthe target language voluntarily,
not for a homework assignment.
Like, that can be tough, andit's tough to rebuild a habit
like that, but that's what'sgoing to keep you consistent.
and help you make progresstowards your goal.
Um, so, implementing some kindof accountability tool is going
(45:47):
to be really important.
Um, maybe that's finding, um, alanguage partner, a friend, um,
a co worker, it could be atutor, if that's something that
you're able to do.
Talking to peers, joining aclub, something like that.
That sort of mimics theaccountability of a classroom.
(46:09):
If taking a class is notsomething that you're interested
or able to do.
Um, so finding someaccountability, that's good in
general for any kind of languagelearning situation, but it's
especially important in theearly stages of jumping back
into a language.
And then once you're kind of atthat point, you also want to
(46:31):
make sure that your plan issustainable for long term
learning.
So you want to make sure thatyou're, you don't want to dive
in doing like five hours ofstudy a day, seven days a week,
because that's going to drop offimmediately.
(46:51):
Um, and so you want to scaleback at least at first.
Maybe you study, like, once ortwice a week when you have time.
Don't learn new concepts.
Focus totally on review.
Um, but, you know, continue topractice what you've learned at
least a little bit so your braindoesn't discard that information
(47:12):
like Jeremiah was talking about.
Um, which is what happens whenyou don't use it for a long
time.
Um, you know.
Like we were talking aboutearlier, people can even lose
their first language in thisway, not so much when you're an
adult, but it does happen.
Um, so.
Jeremiah (47:29):
And you know, I've, I've talked to people who've,
you know, English speakers who,first language English speakers,
who have lived abroad for a longperiod of time, and even as
adults, they'll report that, um,they notice it becoming harder
to recall even basic words fromEnglish, from their first
language.
Um, so, you know, just becausesomething is your first language
(47:51):
doesn't necessarily mean thatit's safe.
Marina (47:55):
Nothing is safe.
That's
Jeremiah (47:56):
right.
Nothing is safe from your ownbrain's Oh my god.
Nothing is safe from your ownbrain's impulse to throw things
away.
It's one of these minimalistgirlies that is insistent on,
like, getting rid of anythingthat doesn't spark joy.
Marina (48:13):
Yeah.
So yeah, I think that thatsummarizes kind of the main
strategies.
I think, you know, the specifictechniques that you use aren't
going to be very different fromthe techniques that you use for
any type of language learningsituation.
I think that's just the overallmessage is going to be.
Be patient and kind to yourself,go slow and steady, and it'll
(48:37):
come back to you faster than youthink.
Jeremiah (48:39):
Yeah, and because of that, it wasn't a waste because
you haven't lost it.
It's just kind of dusty, it'skind of rusted over, you know,
The tires are flat and there's ahole in the I don't actually
know anything about cars But youknow, you ever see like a really
old car That hasn't been touchedin a while.
It's probably got some problemsprobably not drivable anymore,
but It can be restored to itsformer glory a lot more easily
(49:03):
than building a whole new car,right?
Marina (49:05):
Yeah, I don't this whole conversation has made me a
Little more motivated to pick upJapanese
Jeremiah (49:12):
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think if you started studying
Japanese again, even at amoderate rate, you would
probably get back to where youwere pretty quickly.
Like, honestly, this is myclaim, I would say that if
you're picking up a languagelike that, that you haven't
studied in a while, you will getback to where you were in a
fraction of the time that ittook you to get there the first
time.
Marina (49:33):
Yeah, totally.
I don't think it'll take methree years to get back to where
I was with Japanese.
Exactly.
So I should just, I should juststart.
Jeremiah (49:40):
Yeah.
Yoroshiku onegai
Marina (49:41):
shimasu.
Jeremiah (49:45):
Good start.
Thank you for tuning in to Howto Language.
We hope we've inspired you topick up that old language that
you haven't studied since highschool or reconnect with your
first language that you haven'tspoken in years.
It's never too late to recoverthe knowledge you built the
first time around and you willhonestly be surprised at how
(50:05):
much you remember if you juststart putting in the effort
again.
Marina (50:09):
If you like what we do, you can rate and review us on
your preferred podcast app andfollow us on Instagram at
HowToLang for updates on futureepisodes and other fun stuff.
Thanks for listening.
Bye.
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