How to Grow Creativity, Vulnerability and Community with Charlie Dark

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
If I was starting Run Dem Crew now, itprobably wouldn't be a running crew.

(00:04):
It would be an organization that didlots of different things that were good
for you. When I started Run Dem,
I was just so blown away by theimpact that running had on me,
that I thought that was all you needed...
The more you start gettinginto wellness and wellbeing,
you suddenly realize that running isjust one very small component of all this
other stuff that you could be doing.

(00:34):
[
Levitate theme by Nic Nell].
Hello and welcome to Levitate with RyanNell - the show where we talk to people
who are changing the worldfor good. In today's episode,
we're talking to Charlie Dark.

(00:55):
Charlie has had an incredible careeras an international DJ and signed
musician, as the founder of Run Dem Crew,
an international phenomenon in theworld of running, as a brand ambassador,
as a proud father - and Charlie isnow shaking up the world of yoga.
In our super wide-ranging conversation,

(01:16):
we talk about how vulnerabilitycan be a superpower,
the pressure of starting something atyour kitchen table and sticking with it as
it grows beyond your wildest imaginings,
some of the challenges and benefitsaround building a community,
and why drawing a one mile circle aroundyour house might be the best thing you

(01:36):
could do. Charlie is incrediblyhonest during this conversation.
That's something that Ireally, really love about him.
It comes across in everything he does.
And I'm particularly excited for youto hear this episode because Charlie
is a huge part of the Levitate story.
I met with him really early on toget inspiration and advice about how

(01:58):
to start a community.
And I constantly turn to him forinspiration when the going gets tough.
So without further ado,
introducing the one and only Charlie Dark!
I'm absolutely thrilled to behere with you today, Charlie.
It's been a little while in thecoming and you've been on my radar for
quite a long time actually. SoI've been a bit of a fan from afar.

(02:22):
You were very,
very kind to meet me for a coffee anda sandwich a couple of years ago...
Oh yeah!
When you were just gettingstarted... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I was furiously noting down all theadvice on how to start a community and
get one going.
Yeah. Did it work?
It's not very easy at all.
It's not [laughing].
It takes a lot of hard work [laughing].

(02:45):
So, before we get into that, I wantto ask you about where you came up.
I know you started in East Dulwich?
Yeah, I grew up in East Dulwichand went to school in South London.
I spent a large amount of mytime kind of in South London.
And then I would say probablyabout 1985, I started exploring...
Exploring?
Exploring via music.
So my love of music basically introducedme to areas that I didn't really know

(03:08):
about, or didn't know existed.Didn't know if I was welcome.
And it just started, you know,
I kind of got this realthirst for traveling around London and discovering new
places, you know? And thatwas kind of really important.
And I think it's a really importantthing when you live anywhere,
is kind of really trying todiscover your city and explore it.
Yeah, because you were a jungle DJ?

(03:29):
I started off as a hiphop DJ actually. Yeah.
And then got into playingall different types of music,
but I was signed to a labelcalled Mo' Wax in the nineties,
and so kind of got into -a lot into electronic music heavily around that period
of time. Playing all forms of musicand it obviously was like, you know,
jungle kind of descended onLondon in the early nineties.
I was definitely fullyinto that [laughing].

(03:51):
Yeah [laughing]. There was quitea big rave scene in London.
Yeah, there was a really big ravescene. And prior to the rave scene,
there was like a warehouse party scenethat was really interesting. Again,
that introduced me todifferent areas of London.
Like I'd never been to East Londonbefore, until I went to a warehouse party.

(04:11):
It was like a no go area.
I'd never been to Brick Laneuntil I went to warehouse party.
Invariably what would happen is,you'd go to these kinds of events,
stay until the sun came up,
because it was really hard toget home if you weren't driving,
and then you would kind of explorethe area that you had ended up in,
or the person's housethat you'd ended up in.
I can remember ending up in OldStreet for the very first time,

(04:33):
and just thinking "this place is surreal"!
[Laughing].
It was so weird back in 1990, likethe early nineties, it was so barren.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I remember it...
I suppose I moved to London in2005, so a little bit later...
Yeah. Where were you before then?
Living out in Taiwanfor a couple of years.
As one does [laughing].

(04:53):
As one does [laughing]!Studying Chinese. But that's a
story for another podcast.And then before that Hampshire.
Okay.
Yeah, which is why I just feel likean adoptive Londoner. But in 2005,
Old Street, Shoreditch... theywere already becoming, very cool.
Yeah, they were definitely on their way.
Yeah and then quicklyunaffordable and full of bankers.
Yeah, I mean I had thiswarehouse, and it's so stupid now,

(05:17):
but I had this warehouse in Old Street,
from about '95 to '98 -.
Oh yeah?

And the guy who owned it was like: "Okay, I'm going to sell this place. (05:24):
undefined
You can have it for 85,000 pounds".It was like a thousand square feet -.
[Laughing].
And we were like, ah, youknow, it's a bit expensive,
you know? Because it was still ahole... It was a massive warehouse.
I dread to think how much that placeis worth now. But hindsight, you know,

(05:45):
is a wonderful thing.
Right? It's 20/20.
You've got to keep moving forward.
You had a whole music career -Attica Blues and Sony and Mo Wax.
And are you still DJing now?Are you still making music?
Yeah, I'm still - I took some time off.
I start getting anxiety attacksand panic attacks when I was DJing.

(06:08):
So and this is probably about 12,
13 years ago. So I kind of hadto just take some time out. Yeah.
And I kind of started getting back intoit maybe about three years ago, three,
four years ago. First of all, I startedgetting back into making music again,
because I completely stopped. I'dreally fallen out of love with it.

(06:28):
And then kind of got, started gettingback into DJing and buying records,
and now I've got radio show andyeah, I'm back in the music mix,
which is quite interesting. But it'sback in the music mix on my own terms,
which is a much nicer place to be.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The whole musical landscape haschanged now. So the way you make music,
the way you release music, the way youcollaborate is completely different.
And that's really refreshing.

(06:49):
Yeah. It almost feels like the labelsare pretty incidental for a lot of
musicians.
Yeah, you know,
I think people are veryunconcerned about how a song
was made. Where in the world itwas made, what it was mixed on,
what label released it. It'sreally very much kind of:
"If it's good we likeit". And if it's not,

(07:10):
then it's kind of just goes into the heapof the other numerous tracks that are
coming out in the moment.
The also rans! And so, are youwriting anything at the moment?
Yeah. I'm in the middle of workingon a new project, which is kind of,
because time is limitedand I'm getting on in age,
you know? I'm very, very consciousof the fact that whatever I do,

(07:33):
has to kind of have somepurpose, of some sort,
and [is] kind of consolidating ideas.And I'm also trying to, you know,
not expend energy in areaswhich are not going to serve me.
This is the wiseness growing up. So yeah,
which is a long way of sayingthat I'm making this project,
which has got lots of differentstrands. And at the moment,

(07:53):
we're just kind of boiling them downinto a thing that we can take around the
world.
Oh man. Amazing.
And that's the idea.
It's to kind of take this thing thatkind of brings in all my different
influences. Really what I should bedoing is making an album about running...
Yeah [laughing]?
But that's the last thing I want to do.
I just really don't want to do thateveryone keeps saying to me, "Hey,
you need to write a book about running,

(08:13):
and you need to kind of make an albumabout running". I'm just like: "Ah...
I dunno. It feels like a job" [laughing].
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, whendid Run Dem Crew get started?
End of 2006,
early 2007 is when it began. And
I just kind of,

(08:34):
I never thought it was going togrow into what it has grown into.
But that was never the aim. It wasn'tthis aim to grow this organization.
I really was just like, youknow: "My friends keep dying.
They keep getting sick,ending up in hospital,
our lifestyles that we're leading areally unhealthy, we need an intervention.

(08:56):
We need to do something". Andthen also, as is well documented,
I kind of started to miss people,
because what happens when youare successful at what you do,
is then you start making more money,and then you also start traveling a lot.
So then you're just chasingyour friends around the world,
and you never in the sameplace at the same time...
Yeah.
And so it was just an attempt tokind of bring people together.

(09:17):
And I've always liked bringing peopletogether and I guess that's a skill that
I've learned from DJingand I was just like:
OK, cool. And, you know,every day I wake up, I
feel very,
very blessed that Run Dem Crew hasgrown into the kind of institution that
it has.
Yeah. Yeah.

(09:38):
But as you know, as you know, whenyou have a thing that you've grown,
it does become a bit of an albatrossat times. You know, it's like...
Yeah. We're multi dimensional.
That's it. Yeah. I do have days when itgets to Tuesday, and I'm like: "Oh God,
it's Run Dem Crew".
Yeah. It seems like,

(09:59):
you're obviously anincredibly creative guy.
And you could just keepon evolving it. Right?
So it seems like it's had all sorts ofdifferent shapes and sizes and you're in
Brixton Street Gym now...
Yeah we're in Brixton Street Gym now.We're kind of back in the community phase.
Which is a really good place to be.
And it's been really interesting movingback to Brixton and seeing the different

(10:19):
types of people that are coming down.That's really interesting as well.
And you know,
I'm really excited by the collaborationthat we have going down with Brixton
Street Gym. It kind ofmakes a lot of sense for us.
And it's good to be outof Shoreditch. You know,
it's good to be tuckedaway where, you know,
there's not really too muchattention on what we're doing.
We can kind of just get on with it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Underthe radar. Although,

(10:41):
I kind of had the sense that BrixtonStreet Gym's going to become something
quite...
I mean, Brixton Street Gymalready is something big,
but I think the concept of what theyhave, because it's so brilliant,
I think that's something that's goingto spread globally. Definitely. Yeah.
Definitely. That'd be really lovelyto see. Yeah. I love it down there.
It's good. We need to get youdown there. They could do with...

(11:02):
They need some meditation in the place.
Yeah, well, yeah, I'd love to. Wearing
a very different hat,
I used to work in a creative agencycalled Champion in Brixton. And
we did this whole seriesof branding for them.
It's kind of pre Brixton Street Gym.
Oh nice. Wicked.
You've had various associationswith very large sporting labels...

(11:25):
I like the way you diplomaticallyput that. That was really cool.
That's clever.
How is that, how does that work? I imagineit's a bit of a double-edged sword.
Maybe not speaking aboutthe current one, but...
The current one that I'm with islovely. They're really lovely, really,
really lovely.
And I think what happens is it takesyou a bit of time to find your tribe,

(11:46):
you know?
Yeah.
But definitely working with major sportsbrands, or major brands in general,
can have some amazing plus factors.
And then some alsoreally frustrating lows.
Because they are like large cruise ships.
They take an incredibly longtime to turn. And, you know,

(12:07):
I've worked with sports brands since 2007.
Some of it has been lovely and amazingand some of it has been quite, you know,
quite hair-pulling at times. ButI'm in a good place at the moment.
I like the brands that I'm workingwith at the moment. They're really,
they're really cool.
Well it's taken a while to kind of weedout the bad ones from the good ones.

(12:28):
[Laughing]. It's a process. Yeah. Isuppose one of the things going on there
is that they'll want a certainversion of you, which isn't
necessarily the you of a particular day.
Yeah. It's not really, Idon't know if it's even that.
I just think the ideas that gettalked about around the board table,
often sound really greataround the boardroom table.

(12:48):
But in reality of life,they just don't work.
Yeah.
And that's really hard, you know,to get people to understand that.
And then also I think ultimatelyat the end of the day,
they ultimately want to makemoney. That's their ultimate thing.
And I like making money, butI also like helping people.
And I liked building communities.I like maintaining them.
And so at some point you alwayscome to a loggerhead, you know,

(13:10):
you start putting in different directions.
And it's cool if you're workingwith people who understand and
also come down and get involved...
Yeah.
But when you're workingwith people who kind of,
it's almost like you'reworking with them remotely,
so they're kind of judging everythingyou do through the Instagram lens.
Because they're actually too scaredto actually come down and participate.
Then life just gets really hard. Andthat's the one thing I like about,

(13:32):
you know, the brands that I get towork with now. Because you know,
we just put this rule in. It's kind of:
"We will not have a conversation with you.
We will not do any work with you unlessyou come down. If you don't come down,
then we can't do it". You know?And I think that's because,
I don't think that brands realize theimpact, both positive and negative,
on communities thatthey can have. You know,
and a lot of the problems thatwe have in the world right now,

(13:56):
particularly in London,are caused by brands.
Yeah.
You know, and unfortunately,
lots of them won't takeresponsibility for their actions.
So I have a love hate relationship withthe whole brand thing. But you know,
obviously, you know, it's greatwhen you first starting out,
when you start an idea and thenyou get recognized by, you know,
a major corporation. It's kindof, that's quite exciting. My

(14:20):
advice to anyone...
Mm, it's good for the ego...
It's good for ego. You know, itdefinitely is great for the ego,
particularly if you've grown upin kind of inner cities. You know,
and you get to work with like theluxury bands that you've aspired,
and have been told by society that thosethat are the brands that give you kudos
- by wearing them, bybeing associated with them.
When you then enter intorelationships with them,

(14:41):
it's kind of mindblowing for theego. It's like: "I've made it".
Yeah.
You know? But it is really hard. Andsome are easier to work with than others.
My advice say to everyone is, you know,
write down what your ownpersonal brand values are.
That will give you an idea of whetheryou really want to go and work with X, Y,
Z.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(15:02):
And, but at the same time, sometimesyou have to do a Robin Hood. You know,
you have to kind of work with the devil,
so that you can basically feedthe poor. You have to do it.
Exactly. You know, you're kind of,
you're cleaning the moneyas it comes through.
[Laughing]. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
That's a really, really superinteresting thing to think about.
I was thinking about that ego thing,

(15:24):
and the confidence boost of, youknow, working with someone massive.
And the implied, whatthey're saying about you,
when they get into that relationship...You were born to Ghanaian parents...
Yes. I have got Ghanaian parents. Yes.They're also a blessing and a curse.
It's a blessing and a curse?
It's a blessing and a curse, dependingon what day of the week it is.
Most of the time it's a blessing.Sometimes it can definitely be...

(15:45):
[Sighs]. Yeah, definitely. Culture!I think culturally being brought up in some situations can be really hard when you're trying to kind of push the boundaries of what you can and can't do.
Yeah.
Definitely, when I was younger it wasreally hard. But in some ways, you know,
it was a blessing because it meant youworked twice as hard to prove that,

(16:06):
you know, this crazy idea,
this out of the norm idea that youwanted to do would actually work. So,
yeah [laughing].
Yeah. And were your parents kind ofencouraging of you pushing boundaries?

Or was there a sense that kind of (16:17):
"Why can't you just... keep a low profile?".
Um yeah, I mean my mum hasalways been quite rebellious.
She's the rebellious one ofthe family. So she's always...
She pushed her own boundariesto get where she got to.
Yeah.
I think with me... I think aftershe actually realized that:
"This guy is really serious aboutthis, and this is what he wants to do",

(16:39):
then, you know, the encouragementalways came. Definitely,
when I was at school it was aboutacademia is get as many A's as possible.
B's are not allowed.
You might as well leave thecountry you've got a C [laughing].
Right, right, right. C wasa serious conversation.
C was a serious conversation
[laughing]. But yeah, you know, comingback to your original point, you know, about the brands, it's kind of amazing when you go home and you're like, you know, "I'm working with the BBC or I'm working with the British Council, or I'm working with, you know, this sports brand, or that TV station and so forth. You know, you can see this kind of flicker in their eyes of: "OK. This is something we can call home and boast about". You know,
it's cool. I think ultimately end of
the day, I think parentsjust want you to do well.

(17:23):
Hmm. Yeah.
And I think one of the things I didn'trealize when I was growing up is the
amount of trauma that yourparents have gone through,
particularly if they've come fromanother country and resettled.
And they come with thesehopes and these dreams.
And then they have children and they'reraising children in a world that is
ever-changing.
And I think it's actually quite hard forthem to basically accept the fact that

(17:47):
this dream, this path that they'vebeen working to lay out for you,
is not the path that you're going to take.
Yeah. And it's, and it's not your dream.
And it's not your dream. Yeah. And Ithink there's a real kind of like shock.
I was like, wow. You know?So I think, you know, again,
these are lessons that I've learnedfrom becoming a parent myself.
Where my children do things, and I'mjust like: "Why are they doing that?" Oh,

(18:08):
because you did that as well. OK.
Yeah. Really the common elementis rebellion [laughing].
The common element is rebellion,you know, rebellion all the way.
I was definitely a rebelliouschild. Definitely. Definitely.
I'm still rebellious now. Yeah.
Yeah, I'm the son of immigrants,a little bit less exotic,
but Dad came over from South Africa...
Amazing. Where are you parents from?
From Germany to South Africa tohere. And Mum came from Ireland.

(18:32):
So yeah that's a pretty short journey.
But it was amazing seeing their differentstyles of parenting. My Dad, you know,
he'd say himself, he wouldn't callhimself a strict or authoritarian guy,
but that's sort of his style. Andthen Mum was all nurturing, caring,
you know, all about the storytellingand the rest of it. But you know,

(18:52):
the more I learn,
the more I realize they were massivelyrebelling against what their parents kind
of did for them in their time. So...
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. But younever think about that actually.
It's like when I hang out with my kids,
and there's always a comment aboutwhat I'm wearing. There's always like:
"What are you wearing Dad?"That's always one thing.
And then the second thing is kind of...
What do they want you in like, aV-neck or something [laughing]?

(19:13):
Well they just want me in a... Kind ofyeah. They want me in a gray tracksuit.
V-Neck. Very plain.
But there is definitely thisthing where they're just like,
they don't believe I was ever ateenager. And that's really funny.

When they do things and you're like: "Well, I know what you're doing. (19:27):
undefined
I was a teenager, I didexactly the same thing".
And they just can't imagine you notbeing their dad. That's really funny.
So it's funny when you meetpeople, you know me from, you know,
even music days are running and they'rekind of talking to me and not talking to
me like a dad. You kind of look downand your kids are looking at you like:
"What is...? These two arereally weird"![Laughing].

(19:48):
Oh man. Yeah. Actually it's got tobe good for them to see that though.
You know?
I think they're just immensely embarrassedby it. They just think I'm this guy.
It's just like, "Why can't wejust have a normal dad"? Sorry.
You won't understand now, but youwill understand soon. Hopefully.
Yeah. And what's their mum do?
Their mum teaches

(20:11):
design and technology in school.She's like a big graphic head. Yeah.
She's like the big kindof... I'm the music guy.
They're the graphic people.Both of [our kids] played music,
both of them play instruments. Oneof them is really into photography,
one of them wants to bea pro gamer. And yeah,
I've got pretty cool kids.They turned out pretty well.

(20:32):
I'm quite happy with them.Really happy. I'm very,
I'm really proud of them andthey, they're doing well.
They don't give me any trouble at all.You know, so... But again, you know,
it's difficult because you aretrying to kind of nurture them,
whilst at the same timeintroducing them to the world,
whilst at the same time keeping them safe.
And at the same time allowing them freedomand allowing them to make their own
decisions. And no one gives you ablueprint for being a father is kind of,

(20:55):
that's really weird...
Yeah, yeah.
I just thought that itwould be like the movies.
And it's so not like themovies at all. Really not...
The movies are likethose edited highlights.
The dad said just the right thing...
At just the right time [laughing].Yeah. It's really weird. Yeah.
What do you wish that you knewthen that you know now? You know,

(21:17):
when you were starting out as afather? What would have been helpful?
Wow, that's a good question.
I wish that I had done my yogateacher training before I became
a father.
One I would have had something to help me
cope with the change. Secondly,
I think doing my yoga teacher training,just changed my mind state completely.

(21:41):
Yeah.
And I just wish I had thatmind state coming into it,
because when you're having kids,
you know and you are involvedin the creative industries...
You see your friends,
and they're coming down to theevents and the gallery openings,
and they've got the kids and alldressed up in all the cool gear.

And they're like sleeping, and you think: "Oh man, it's gonna be really cool. (21:54):
undefined
I'm going to get these two little matesand am just going to walk around town
with them, and be reallycool". And then they arrive,
and it's kind of not like that. Andyou just realize the sleep deprivation,
no matter how manymidnight, or late night,
or all night DJ sets you've ever donein your life, nothing prepares you.
The sleep deprivation isso unreal. It's crazy.

(22:18):
And also just this idea ofresponsibility that comes when you have
children and there's a really weird daywhere you suddenly realize that these
small people who you helped make,
actually think that youknow what you're doing.
And they're looking for you forguidance and you've got no idea.
Mm, yeah.
So a classic... You know? A classic,

(22:41):
classic thing is thefirst time you have mice.
Kids are all running around the house.My missus is running around the house.
Everyone's running around andeveryone's looking at you like: "Batman,
superhero, da da da da! He's going tocome and say the day! Come on Daddy,
you're going to take care of the mess.You're going to get rid of the mice,
you're going to do the thing!" Andyou're just sitting there like: My God,
I'm terrified of mice and I don'tknow, I actually don't know what to do.

(23:01):
And everyone here thinksI know what to do.
And that's kind of, you know,
it's a series of these thingsthat happen where kind of...
Tire breaks down on the car andthen everyone's like: "It's OK,
'cause Daddy's going to go sort itout". And you're just like: "Argh,
I don't know how to change a car tire"!
I know how to program a drum machine...

(23:22):
[Laughing].
So I wish I was more practical. There'sloads of things, you know, that,
that I wish that I knew.
Yeah,
you get a bit of practice looking afteryounger folk doing Run Dem Crew and kind
of building that community?
Yeah. But it's different. It's really,really different growing, you know,
your kids from, they've just arrivedthrough kind of toddler years...

(23:44):
school, you know, to Run Dem.By the time they get to...
Run Dem has its different challenges.
It's kind of weird because I thinkwhen people arrive at Run Dem,
when young people arrive at Run Dem,they're looking for help. You know,
they've arrived at thatpoint where they're like:
"I need some help in my life and I'veheard that you or this organization can
help me, so I'm going to beopen". When it's your own kids.

(24:07):
It's just a natural thing to rebelagainst what your dad is telling you
you should be doing. It's kind of:
"Why am I going to do that?" And so I'vejust really just come to the thing now
where it used to really kind ofworry me and now I just kind of,
I'm just relaxed. I'm justlike, "Cool, great, brilliant...
You don't do your homework? Allright, amazing. Brilliant. Cool.

(24:27):
Let's see how that goes for you"!
Let's see how that goesfor you [laughing].
Yeah
[laughing]. Because then liketwo days later you get the call: "Like dad, I got detention".

Like (24:29):
"Oh really? Okay, cool. We'll see how that goes for you".
Let's join the dots [laughing].
Yeah. It's kind of like one of thosethings where... It's like anything.
Like having to be angry,
with a situation whereyou're actually kind of like:
"I can understand why you did that.So I'm actually not that angry,

(24:49):
but society is telling me that I kindof have to be firm with you right now".
Right. Yeah.

But really I'd just be like (24:53):
"OK, you know, don't do it again".
So there's always this push and pull.
Because I always remember kids at schoolwho had those super relaxed parents.
You'd go round there and it was likethey could come in and out whenever they
wanted to,
you'd walk into their bedroom and they'dkind of graffitti'd the whole room.
It was like, you know...
Yeah, yeah. What are they like now?
They would never eat what theirparents were eating. It's kind of,

(25:13):
there was always peoplesleeping over or living there.
I just always wondered like whatare they doing now? Actually,
they probably married andhave got 2.5 children,
and they've kind of gone really corporate.In fact, most of the ones I know,
who were super rebellious -that's actually what they did.
Yeah. It's weird that. They're lookingfor more boundaries than they had.
Exactly [laughing].

(25:33):
Yeah. Well I think the truth, asfar as I've been able to work out,
is that you can't get it right. So -.
Yeah. Yeah. That's it.And I think one, you know,
one thing that yoga has taught me,
is not to focus so much onthings that haven't happened.
Not to worry myself about thingsin the past that I cannot change.
And just to enjoy the now.
And that's been a real mentalshift in my whole being.

(25:58):
It's been really cool. And that'sone of the things I say to people,
who come down to the yogastudio. It's kind of like:
"It isn't really about the shapesthat you make with your body.
It is about how it makes youfeel". But there's this thing,
if you can capture this thing of kindof just taking each day as it comes,
and enjoying the day for what it is,you know, then some magic could happen.
Yeah. That's beautiful.
Yeah. That's kind of my thing.But you know, it's hard.

(26:20):
I don't know how you find,
do you find it easy to get peopleinto the meditation studio?
Yes and no. You know, they'vecome in their hundreds.
That's been nice. For the ego!
But I'm obviously trying toget the ego out of the way.
But I think they've overcome all kindsof resistance to getting through the door
in the first place. SometimesI felt like Catholic priest...
Yeah [laughing]. It's like a confessionalwe have to go through first, you know,

(26:45):
people telling me about - whetherthey have they got label for it, like:
"I'm depressed, I'm anxious, I'm onthese pills or those pills or whatever,
I lost someone, broke up withsomeone" ... something's going on.
Then then there's another subset.Who are just curious explorers,
honestly doing it as a bitof almost entertainment.

(27:06):
The people kind of really needit, are the ones who stick around.
And that's amazing, because then I getto see them go on a bit of journey.
And I suppose a bit like you,
I'm always trying to get across thatI'm not living like a totally mindful
existence. Yeah I know [laughing].That's really funny! Yeah.
I'm not meditating my way throughmy days. Mostly I'm, you know,
running around like a bluearsed fly. Just going: "Argh!

(27:30):
How am I going to get it all done"?
Just buy more beads. Buy more beadsand incense and stuff like that.
All of that stuff helps [laughing]. Itkind of gets you in the mood, but -.
Have you heard RZA's meditation album?
No.
Okay. So that's my tipfor you to check out.
So RZA from Wu Tang Clan has done analbum about meditation. So go listen
to it on your streaming service.

(27:52):
Ah, nice. No way! Yeah, I will do,on my 'streaming service of choice'.
It's actually, and it's really...
I've been talking to a fewmeditation teachers about it.
I'm really interested to know what theythink. Because it's actually, you know,
as an entry level, "I'venever meditated before",
it's kind of really interestingthat there are these people,
who are kind of really unlikely people,are getting into meditation now.

(28:14):
And that's why I'd be like, youknow, really, really like...
I'd love to be become ameditation teacher. I'd love to.
I'll talk to you about that later.
Yeah. Oh man, I get a lot out of itand I'm always saying to people like:
"I don't have anything to teach you".I mean I do have something to teach,
but we're trying to unlearn alifetime of bad habits. You know,

(28:35):
so if it's a - well, there are newarrivals, right? Like there's always new,
you know, Netflix wasn't around. Nowit is. Now it takes so much of my time.
I shouldn't say that, but it's true.
It's funny actually. Because Iwas thinking about that actually,
because I've just binge-watched Hunters.And I was just thinking to myself,

(28:56):
like back in the day,
there was no way that you would justsit down and watch like 25 episodes of
EastEnders back to back to backto back to back to back to back...
Impossible - you just wouldn't doit. It's just really weird now...
EastEnders was sandwichedby something less good.
I think it's really interesting how timehas become such a precious commodity

(29:16):
now.
And how it's taken up by so muchstuff that wasn't there before.
Like I took myself to the theater thisweek in the afternoon and that was a real
like 'thing'.
Yeah. Yeah.
I kind of felt really rebellious doingthat. And it was just kind of, you know,
I just think I really wish I rememberedpre Netflix, pre MySpace, pre-internet.

(29:37):
Just like, what were peopledoing pre mobile phones? Like,
what were people doing? I guess youdon't remember. You know, I kind of,
will have times where I go and spendlike an hour deep diving YouTube,
kind of getting really obscure.And I just think to myself:
like what was myequivalent of that before?
Probably actually I was just spendinglarge amount of times in the studio.

(29:58):
Right now you can kind of like do yourpre studio before you're in the studio.
You know, it's kind of weird. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean I used to, I used to reada lot. I've got a lot of books here,
but now they're just... They'relike the decorations, you know?
Yeah.
And I keep on acquiring them, becauseI'm a bit of a hoarder. But yeah,
the time for reading, seemslike it's so precious.
Yeah. It's weird with books actually,because even, I always feel like if I'm,

(30:22):
if I read a book - if Ilisten to an audio book,
I feel that I don't absorbit as much, as reading it.
But then there's always this thing oflike: "where am I going to put the book"?
Now I just buy books andread them and give them away.
Yeah. That's nice man.
Yeah, I'm trying to, well, you know,my missus is kind of real like:
"Okay, so you've got seven copiesof Ian Fleming 'Moonraker',

(30:46):
first edition to the latest.You don't need all of them.
You need to get rid of them"!
That's probably good for you.
It's probably good. Yeah. ButI do like a first edition book.
It's funny actually, I think onceyou start getting rid of things,
once the flood gates open, it'squite easy. I think it's quite easy.
Yeah. I did a massive clear out a coupleof years ago, kind of a lot of bags,
bin bags to charity -.
It's very tidy here.

(31:07):
Right.
I mean I suppose as a meditationteacher, I suppose it has to be zen?
Yeah.
Do you find though, when thespace that you're in is crowded,
that your head feels crowded?
Yeah. But my head has noproblems crowding itself.
You put me in a cave and itwould be complicated somehow.

(31:27):
Have you found this stuffwith mindfulness, with yoga?
Has that been helpful for your own sanity?
It's been the best thing I'veever introduced to my life.
And I can't believe that it took meso long to actually find out about it.
And then to accept it into my life.
Obviously when you do your yoga teachertraining, it's kind of, you know,

(31:49):
it starts with the hardcoremeditation. They've got you in there.
It's like half six in the morning,
it's freezing in the studio andyou're meditating, and you know,
they deep dive you in.Well, I just found, for me,
I just had this really weird epiphanyone day. I was just like: Dude,
this is like the bestdrugs in the world ever.

(32:09):
And it's free"!
No come down.
And there's no come down andI can access it at any time.
And it's inside my body. Howdo I not know about this?
It was like a real thing where Iwas just like: Oh man it's amazing!
It's amazing. And again,I feel quite empowered.
By taking time out of the day to go andmeditate. I feel really kind of like...

(32:32):
I still haven't learnt how to takea good meditation picture though...
It can't be done.
It can't be done [laughing].
I've got a few photographers.
Someone wants to like film me,film me teaching, and I'm like:
"You do understand I'm going to besitting still with my eyes closed?".
Close your eyes. Make loveto the camera. Right. Yeah.

(32:54):
That's funny. Yeah. Meditation islike, how did you get into meditation?
Yeah. So pretty poor mental health...
Okay. Yeah.
I was thinking, all right. You know,
I had a successful advertisingcareer but I was battling anxiety...
lots of hiding in the hidingin the loo at work. Right.

(33:15):
You got like a thousand people on thefloor and they're all super kind of alpha
types, like very, veryextroverted. I'm very extroverted,
but then I've got this shier sideas well that manifested in me. Yeah.
Literally kind of like running to theloo to chill out in there until I felt
like I could face the world again.
Yeah.
And you know, so I was doing all thewrong things actually. Cause there's,

(33:37):
I was sort of escaping it ratherthan dealing with it. But yeah,
so I started doing a bit ofmindfulness and meditation and
CBT, and of all the things I tried,[meditation] was the one that I loved,
I felt like I could do on my own. Andyeah, it's more like not meditating,
than meditating. I kept on goingback to that career and yeah,

(34:00):
it took a while before I was, like,
"I'm going to start my own thing andit's going to be a meditation studio.
I'm going to try andkind of democratize it".
So it isn't the way thatHeadspace democratized it, but it's like "in the real".
Because there's something kind ofqualitatively different about it. I mean,
I think it's amazing, you know,sitting on a cushion and meditating.

(34:21):
Yep.
Your eyes are closed, but I thinkthe point of it is to connect.
My little working theory,very not original,
just stolen from other people really,
is that you know what wethink of as spirituality?
Well everyone's going to have adifferent answer for that one,
but we want it to be really complicated.
It's going to involve slaying somedragons and covering some serious ground

(34:44):
before you get there. I kindof had this hunch that cats,
animals are... Okay,
they are spiritual - they've got whatwe want. And it's not more complicated.
It's simpler.
Being in touch with their bodiesand their emotions and, you know,
if they're hungry, they're hungry,if they're tired, they're tired.

(35:05):
So that's what I mean by trying to kindof unteach people and connect to our
bodies, but I think alsoconnect to the people around us.
Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
So the more I did it the morekind of connected I felt,
and specifically doing it with people,well that's how we ended up here.
Yeah. Yeah. It's cool,man. That's really cool.
You talk a lot about a one mile circle,

(35:27):
like drawing a one milecircle around your house.
Yes.
What's that about? Where's,where's that come from?
It's just this idea that if youdraw a one mile circle around your
house and you,
then you kind of have a look intothat circle and see what within that
circle you can serve and help.

(35:49):
I think interesting thingsstart to happen. So I think it's really interesting,
like particularly one of the classicthings we get with people who, you know,
they move into an areathat's been gentrified...
Yeah.
They don't realize that they're part ofthe problem (of the gentrification) and
then don't know any of their neighborsor any of the people who were displaced.

(36:09):
But the fact that, you know,they've moved into the area.
Yeah.
And then there's this weird kind oflike thing where they live in the area,
but yeah really they live in a house inthe area. They don't live in the area.
It's kind of an island. they've made.
My thing is always just kind of, you know,
draw a circle around yourhouse a mile, you know,

(36:30):
find out where the nearest school is.
Get your CRB checks and go downto offer some time and help.
You know if you've got kids who werehanging about in the neighborhood.
Make them some cakes. Yeah,they're probably hungry. You know,
if you've got some old ladies in yourroad, you go and buy them some flowers.

(36:52):
I just think that lots ofpeople say that they feel
lonely and they feeldisplaced. Then they, you know,
they feel disconnected butthey're actually not doing any of the things that you
need to do to connect with theirneighborhood. So, really simple thing:
the next time you go into theshop to pay for your stuff,

(37:13):
put the money in the person'shand and see their reaction,
see what happens. Like reallysmall things like that.
Yeah.
A smile.
How are you opening the door for someoneas they come into the corner shop?
You know, it's just kind of, I just feelreally small things that you can do.
And if one did, these small little thingsthen you know... So my thing is if,
if everyone did a mile,
then that scene kind of grows into likea bigger kind of circle of influence and

(37:38):
yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful.
I'm just old school,like I just, I guess...
It is old school, but weneed to bring it back.
We do need to bring back,
but I think when I was growing up inSouth London and I'd say was landlocked.
To a mile area, you know, the boundarywas my school and then you know,
the other boundary was themarket and those were the two...

(37:59):
So I just had to explore everything inbetween those boundaries because I wasn't
allowed to stray beyond them. Sothat's I guess where it came from...
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know. Know your area inside out.
Yeah. Yeah. We had a street party here,
like last summer.
Amazing.
It was, it was amazing, butit was terrible as well.
It was like some kind of apartheid.

(38:20):
Yeah.
It was a street over, like, youknow, the end of the street,
like kind of swung into action,
put all the bunting up andand the stalls and you know,
it was very sweet. They'd grown potplants and they kind of, you know,
like come and get pot plant and the restof it, and games for kids and whatever.
And then there was like a barbecueup at the other end. But no bunting.

(38:43):
And I was like "what's with thebunting"? And they said "Oh,
well we, we told them it was goingto be down this end of the road"!
Ah OK, yeah, yeah.
But you could see the messagethat people got. It was bonkers!
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think as well,
the thing about gentrification is like,it's coming, it's here, it's coming to,
you know, it's sweeping through the world.

(39:05):
And I think that actuallypeople almost need to be taught
how to interact. With eachother again, you know,
because it's kind of what's really,
I think is really interesting is likewhenever you go into a place where you
feel like you're intimidatedby being in that place,
what you have to understand is thatthose people are intimidated by your
presence as well. Yeah. And so at somepoint you have to find a middle ground.

(39:27):
And some discussion.
Yeah.
You know, and then it's kind of, you know,
and then I think it's really amazingwhat happens as a result of that.
But I think one of theproblems that's happened,
is there are no longer these spaceswhere people can come together.
To do something.
Right yeah.
And so, you know, I grew up inwarehouse party, rave culture,
which was all about, youknow, we all love music.

(39:50):
So we're going to find this big space,
the biggest space we can find and aboutas many people as we can to share this
experience. It doesn't really happenanymore now. Well where do you...
I mean it probably it does, but ithappens under corporate matters.
So I think it's a bit different.You know, I think it's really,
really different.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I went toprint works the other day and it was,

(40:14):
I still try to keep likea hand in things, but...
Yeah. Who'd you go see?
DJ Koze...
The drum and bass DJ. Ah OK cool.
And Floating points and Max Cooper,
very kind of credible... Ah, man,it was amazing. It was amazing.
But the getting there, I was like thiswhole corporate experience. It was, yeah,

(40:35):
it was crazy, you know?Queuing for an hour,
to get to a very intense search.
And then you're in and then you'requeuing for lockers for another hour.
Yeah. Yeah [laughing].
And thinking "why did I bring my bag"?
Yeah. And Printworks is like a long tunnelas well. It's kind of a bit of an odd
venue.
But yeah, I did, and by the end of thenight I felt very kind of connected.

(40:56):
There's 3000 people inthe room. Yeah, it's,
it's rare and I think that maybe there'ssomething kind of going on where what
our families and villageswould have done for us is now,
well it's not there becausewe we've all atomized.
Yep.
But we haven't entirely lost it becausewe are surrounding ourselves with people
we love. Right. You know, so kind oflike almost building our own families.
Yeah. But I, I think,

(41:18):
we're quite blessed in that we aresurrounding our selves with people we love
and we are surrounded by people we love.A lot of people don't have that. No.
You know, and I think...
And that's the cozybubble, isn't it really?
I think, I don't think it'snecessarily people doing it by choice.
I just think it's one ofthose things that can happen.
Because obviously the thingwith social media is kind of,

(41:38):
you take it for granted that everyone'sokay because you see the highlight reel,
you know, so you don't reallyknow what's really going on.
Well I like that in your socialmedia you are vulnerable.
Oh yeah. I have to be. Becauseyou know, after a while. I mean,
I think that what happened to me isafter I kind of had the big kind of

(41:59):
major label record companyDJ experience. Yeah.
The burning emerging from that kindof the embers of that just meant
that I just thought this next time around,
I'm just going to lay it all on the line.
And then once you realize that peopleactually listening to what you've got to
say and really followingwhat you say right,

(42:19):
then you realize that you have aresponsibility to be vulnerable.
Yeah.
You got to show peoplewhat's really going down.
So one of my things at the moment,particularly with Instagram.
Just because my mental health isin a weird place at the moment,
maybe cause I'm, you know, I'm gonnabe 50 this year, which is amazing.
But at the same time it'sa bit like, "Oh my God'!

(42:40):
Like how did that happen?
Well, it's not even that you juststart thinking to yourself, "OK,
so hold on a minute.So I'm going to be 50.
I might need to reallystart thinking about
what I'm actually doing, whatI'm going to be doing. You know,
because you know you talk to peoplethat are like 20, and they're like,
you know, they don't haveto think about this stuff...

(43:00):
No.
When you get to my age you kindof think about it. But then also,
so one of my things is not reallykind of using the social media.
You know, I'm not postingevery day anymore and you know,
haven't been really been on Instagramstories with myself on there.
Just kind of just trying toprotect my self a little bit more.

(43:21):
Cause there's also, I hada stalker for two years...
That was really weird as well,that kind of threw things.
Oh sh*t.
You know, that was kind of a bitlike "this is really annoying.
Just like stop being annoying"!
And then also that weirdthing where you see people and
you don't know them but they know youand they know everything about you. Yeah.
It just kind of starts to freak youout after a while. A bit like, "Yeah.

(43:45):
It's a bit spooky"! It's just like,ah, okay. Yeah maybe I need to be...
It's a double edged sword. Ithink it's a really hard one,
because obviously there are people whokind of, they rinse their social media.
Yeah.
And they, you know, they'rehighly successful as a result.
And then there are the people, youknow, like Burial, [who] ghost,
don't see them at all. Ithink it's weird. You know,

(44:05):
it's just hard to kind of find your space.
Ah, it's really, really hard. Yeah.
Yeah, really hard to findyour space. You know,
there's definitely been a lot of umm, Ithink when you're self employed as well,
you don't hide in the office...You hide in your own toilet,
you don't hide in youroffice toilet, you know?
Right, right, right!
But I think it's, yeah, vulnerability.I've always been kind of, you know,

(44:26):
a vulnerable person. I think it's oneof my superpowers. I definitely was one,
you know, one of the first people to starttalking publicly about mental health.
I can remember kind of, you know,
I was with the sports brandwho shall not be mentioned,
and kind of woke up one day andwas just like, "you know what,
I kind of don't really feel great andI'm going to tell the world I don't feel
great". And then went to sleep,

(44:48):
woke up and then the world hadkind of been like, "Oh my God,
I can't believe he talkedabout mental health publicly".
That's like yeah it was,why would you? [laughing].
Yeah, yeah, we need more people to do it.
We do. But then,
I think what's happened now is it's kindof become a bit kind of like a social
currency. It's like I've seenthat and I've got mental health.
Yeah. Well, okay. You know, it was like,

(45:08):
so I think it's almostswung the opposite way.
Yeah. It's like a pendulum...
Yeah it's like a pendulum swinging fromleft to right. It's kind of really,
you know...
It's kind of it's hard to get right.
But I think somehowyou manage to you know,
I suppose you can't go wrong withbeing authentic. Unless you have very,
very objectionable views, you know?
That's it! Yeah. Yeah.

(45:29):
I mean it's funny cause havingchildren will keep you authentic.
Because yeah, they are so, particularlywhen they become teenagers,
they're so unimpressed.
By things that would previously wouldmake your ego go out of control.
I was on a billboard. Yeah,I did a thing for Bumble Biz.
I was on a massive billboard. Yeah Iwas in Peckham, I was in Shoreditch,

(45:51):
it was all over the place. I was withmy kids, I took them down. They're like,
you know, "I'm going to gosee the thing. Big surprise"!
My daughter was just like,"Oh, is that it? Yeah,
anyway, what are wegoing to have for dinner?
[Laughing].
I know it was really funny actually,
cause I just had a moment where Iwas just like, "yeah, I guess. Yeah.

(46:11):
Cool. That's it. Onward andforward we go"! So you know,
it's good.
So now. I want to be mindfulof your time cause...
I've got time, it's cool. It's cool.
Well I want to ask you,
having just said that you want to be abit more guarded I suppose about what
goes out on social media. Well thesame goes for podcasts, doesn't it?

(46:34):
Is there something you wishpeople knew about you, you know,
that you didn't have to keep on saying?
I mean, I... I wish that peopleunderstood despite the fact of what I do,
you know, and I'm kind of outgoing andquite a gregarious person, you know,
I'm still quite shy, definitely.I still have imposter syndrome.

(46:55):
You know, it's definitely I walk intosituations and I think, "Oh my God,
these people think I know what I'm talkingabout and they're going to pay me for
me to tell them what I'm talking aboutand I actually don't know what I'm
talking about or I don'tthink I'm qualified to tell them". I still have that.
I have fears, you know, I'mstruggling with masculinity.
I think in the present is hard, you know.
Like I'm not like some super alpha maletype of dude. That is not me. Yeah.

(47:20):
At the same time, I'm not kind of,you know, the opposite spectrum.
So trying to find yourplace in the middle is hard.
Yeah.
I think actually one of the things thatpeople don't realize is when you have
these ideas at your kitchen tableand then they grow into these big
things,
it's a large amount of pressure tokind of keep turning up for it and

(47:41):
keep being there for people andto keep trying to evolve it and to
keep trying to protect it aswell. And I think that's really...
I just think people, in fact,
I know people just don't understand theconversations that you have that are
offline that they will never know aboutand the extent that you have to go to,

(48:01):
to maintain an organization this bigand to keep everyone happy. Yeah,
it's really, really hard because you'redealing with a large amount of egos.
Yeah.
And you know, the one thingabout running is, you know,
once you run any form of distance,
your ego is immediately inflated becauseyou've just done this thing of wonder.

(48:21):
It's kind of, "Oh yeah, you just ran26 miles. Go and take the rubbish out"!
"I'm not taking the rubbishout, I just ran 26 miles.
What are you talking about"? Youknow, it's kind of, you know,
it's really hard to kind of deal...
and still have to show upand have that enthusiasm for
it. You know, becauseyou're the one leading.
Yeah. How do you recharge?

(48:42):
Well,
one of the things that I've been doingto recharge is trying to fall back in
love with the things that I was intowhen I had the freedom to fall in
love with things.
Right right right. Yeah.
So retracing things I was intowhen I was a teenager when
I didn't really have any responsibilityand getting back into kind of reading

(49:02):
books and reading comics andhunting for records and going to
the theatre and kind of, you know,
just the kind of things I would do whenI was in my teens and I didn't have a
mortgage and kids and Run DemCrew and responsibilities,
and I was just deejaying in my bedroomand that was cool. And you know,
learning to dream again.
And part of this new put it I'm workingon is about kind of rediscovering things

(49:26):
that make me happy and not havingto share them with the world.
That's another one as well. Yeah. And
if I think back now,
I mean I love the fact the impact thatRun Dem Crew has had but actually there
are some days where I wish, I wishI'd never told anyone about this.
Mm. Because then youwouldn't have to do it...

(49:48):
Well it's not so that youwouldn't have to do it,
but you wouldn't have to basically doit to the extent that I have to do it.
Yeah.
Cause I'm responsible for a largeamount of people. Yeah. And you know,
on the good days, that's great. Butthere are some days where you just like,
actually, you know, I'm reallytrying to focus on myself right now.
And I don't have the braincapacity to focus on, you know...
But because I've created thissituation in this movement,

(50:11):
I have responsibility tobasically be there... You know,
once you turn it on it's verydifficult to turn it off. Hmm.
That's a good question though.
Like the Queen, it's a job for life. Yeah.
Exactly. I don't likemice. Petrified of mice.
[Laughing].
I'm absolutely petrified of mice,
we've got building work going on at ourhouse at the moment in the houses on

(50:32):
either side of us. So justlike, and so you're like,
you just suddenly randomly...I'm sitting there watching TV,
mouse just runs across in front of me.The dog did not move at all! In fact,
he looked at me to be like, "whatare you gonna go and do about that"?
[Laughing].
It's like, "I don't know what I'mgoing to do"! So um, but yeah,
that's a good question. Imean, there's so many things.

(50:54):
I just think people don't understand aswell when you've grown up in the Bermuda
triangle and I call it that, you know,I went to a very posh private school.
Mhm.
My parents are from Ghana. Most of myfriends growing up were from Jamaica...
Trying to find yourself in thattriangle of who you are. It was really,
really hard. You know, like, "who am I"?

(51:15):
I know who everyone else wants me tobe. "Who am I"? That was, you know,
really hard. And it's still to this day,
something that I struggle withjust trying to, you know, be me.
Yeah.
Well those clues might be in and thosethings that you loved doing when you were
a kid, before all theresponsibilities came in.
Yeah.
This Canadian [originallyHungarian] doctor Gabor Maté.

(51:36):
I don't know if you have come acrosshim on YouTube?I'll send you a link,
he's awesome. But he talks aboutaddiction but he's kind of,
he's got a very kind ofbroad definition of it.
And it is anything that you keep on doingthat causes you to disconnect a little
bit and then you keep on doing it eventhough it's caused that disconnection.
And so he's got this interestingtake, firstly that we're all addicts.

(51:58):
Whether there are anysubstances or anything involved,
we're all addicted to something.
But that recovery is reallyabout recovering your young self.
Ooooh, I like that!
Little Charlie who neveractually went anywhere.
You just disconnected from hima little bit along the way.
That's good. I like that. Recoveringwho you were before. Yeah.
I always say that, like when youcome out of a bad relationship,

(52:20):
rather than spending time crying actuallyspend some time rediscovering who you
were before you go into the relationship.
Yeah. Yeah, that's true [laughing].
That's always a good thing [laughing].
Alright! Before this gets too deep,do you have anything you want to plug?
No, not at all.
That's refreshing!
I mean, I, if anything, no,not at all. You know, I just,

(52:42):
one thing I've realized,I kind of went into yoga.
When I retrained to become a yoga teacher,I kind of went in there like, "Right,
I'm going to remix the wellnessworld and I'm going to remix yoga.
I'm going to strip it apart and put itback together and I'm going to take it to
the people who really need it andI'm going to Run Dem-ify yoga. Well,
exactly what I did to running is whatI'm going to go and do it with yoga...
Anti-running anti-yoga.

(53:03):
And actually what I've realized ispeople will just come to it when they are
ready. There's effort required to takeit to the people and you can create those
situations. But the interestingthing, particularly now,
you can create all these situations totry and reach the people that you're
trying to reach. They willonly come when they are ready.
Yeah.
And that's okay. Yeah. Cause that wouldhave used to just really freaked me out.

(53:26):
I'd be like, "man, you know,
I trained to become a yoga teacherto kind of take it to the people,
but the people aren't coming.Why is that? What can I do"?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I just realized "it's just relaxed,they're going to come when they come.
So with Run Dem, you know? I've gotfriends who every time I see them,
say "yeah man, I'm coming RunDem next time. I'm going to come,
I'm going to come"! And I'm like, "It's14 years now. No, you're not coming"!

(53:48):
Yeah [laughing]. Right yeah.
And that's okay. Yeah. That'sokay. I've got nothing to plug,
you know, if anything,
one of my reasons why I wanted to dothis show is that I think that meditation
is really important. I think it'ssomething that everyone should be doing.
I think it's a skill that shouldbe accessible to everyone.

(54:08):
Yeah.
And so by doing this, I'm hopingthat, you know, people who follow me,
who don't know any of this stuff,who are like, "I'm not running,
I'm definitely not doing the yoga"!
Actually sitting in their house onthe cushion, might do them some good.
"That I can manage"!
Yeah. They can manage. And that's,you know, and that's okay. You know,
it's funny, I was actuallythinking about this.
Like if I was starting Run DemCrew now. What would it be like?

(54:33):
Yeah.
And I actually thought to myself, "itprobably wouldn't be a running crew,
you know,
it would be a new organizationthat did lots of different
things that were good for you".
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It definitely was nicewhen I started Run Dem.
I was just so blown away by the impactthat running had on me that I thought

(54:54):
that was all you needed.
It's like a cure.
Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know,
the more you start getting into,you know, wellness and wellbeing,
you suddenly realize that running isjust one very small component of all this
other stuff that you could be doing.
Yeah.
Well, you know, that's my thing.
Amen to that. Yeah. Same withsame with meditation. Brilliant.

(55:15):
If you're meditating,
but if you're not moving andyou're not eating well then yeah...
Yeah, you're just going tobe an unhealthy meditator.
What's the most about people thatyou've ever done a session for?
I had 75 people in a room. Yeah,
a big kind of corporate client adagency, but it felt good actually.
It felt good to kind of go,it's terrifying personally,

(55:38):
I used to be so scared of public speaking,
so getting in front of a crowdlike that. It's like, "Oh my God"!
But good to kind of go back into thisindustry that I thought I never wanted to
step through the doors again. Kindof go back wearing a different hat.
Yeah.
You know, I've got somethingof value. It was cool. Yeah.
Yeah. That's cool. Hmm.
I did a thing in Australia withthis guy called Manoj Diaz.

(56:01):
He's like one of the Lululemon...
Yeah, yeah.
... meditation guys. With KAWS the artist.
Underneath the KAWS statue. It wastwo to three hundred people turned up,
but it was like, it was, it wasreally weird. It was kind of,
it was really interesting actually justkind of meditating with that amount of
people.
That's amazing.
It was like really, reallycool. And then obviously it was,

(56:25):
you know, in conjunctionwith the KAWS exhibition.
There were loads of people who came, notbecause they wanted to meditate at all,
but because they want it tobe first in line for the shop.
Meditation was the price of entry,but they got really into it as well.
And that was really cool.
That's amazing. I think you know,
the more I see what you're doing,

(56:45):
there's so much kind of cross pollinationgoing on that the running and the yoga
and the music and all the communitystuff that kind of goes around it.
Yeah. I mean, I think I'min a good space. I'm lucky.
It's inspiring, man.Keep doing what you do.
Keep doing what you're doing. I mean,
I love it when people come and speakto me about ideas and then you see them
actually go in and do them. And bringthem to life. And that's really, you know,

(57:09):
this your whole journey.I've, I've been like,
this guy is going to open a meditationstudio in deep South London. "Okay.
We'll see how that goes"! But it's beenreally interesting to see, you know,
to see it coming together.
Thanks man.
Really, really cool.
Appreciate that. Appreciate that.
Right.
So I want to say a big thank you toCharlie for his participation in this

(57:29):
episode. I found it really,
really powerful hearing histhoughts on authenticity,
on the responsibility of beingand showing your vulnerability.
And how candid he was as well about thedifficulties and challenges of being a
dad.
The power of drawing a one milecircle around your house and
really taking the time and effortto engage with the people within it.

(57:53):
But let me know what youfound most powerful in the comments and do me a favor.
Hit the subscribe button on thepodcasting service of your choice.
Leave us a rating or review or sharethis episode with a friend who you
think might enjoy it. Again, I wantto say a huge thank you to Charlie.
Also to my brother, Nic Nell,who did the music for this show.

(58:18):
I also want to say a big thank youto this show's sponsor Levitate.
Levitate in case you don't know, isa meditation and wellbeing community.
We teach individuals,
groups and companies howto find clarity, calm,
and connection in a world of distraction.
If you're interested in findingout more about what Levitate does,

(58:40):
just head on over to www.levitate.london
and we will catch you backhere for another episode soon.

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