January 11, 2024 • 35 mins
In this special bonus episode, Travis sits down with one of the godfathers of podcasting - Eric Nuzum.
Eric created and developed podcasts such as TED Radio Hour, Invisibilia, Fresh Air with Terry Gross, and many others and he shares that wisdom and expertise in his new book Make Noise: A Creator's Guide To Podcasting And Great Audio Storytelling.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hey, Travis Albritton here.
So I hope these episodes havebeen super helpful for you
getting your show off the groundand having the confidence that
you need to really launch apodcast, which is such an
incredible thing.
Now, I recently had theopportunity to sit down for a
conversation with Eric Newsom,who has been an executive
producer on some of the biggestpodcasts in the world, many of
(00:22):
NPR's podcasts, Ted's podcasts,and just brings a lot of insight
and depth of wisdom topodcasting.
And so I wanted to share thiswith you as kind of like a
podcasting 201.
This interview is what to doonce you have your show going
and you really want to seewhat's the next step, what's the
next level that I can get towith my podcast.
(00:45):
He just wrote a brand new bookon podcasting called Make Noise.
I will leave a link to the bookin the episode description.
It's a fantastic book.
So I hope that this conversationis helpful for you and that you
get a lot out of it.
And without further ado, here'smy conversation with Eric
Newsom.
SPEAKER_01 (01:05):
So my name is Eric Newsom, and I spent most of the
early part of my career inbroadcast and eventually worked
my way up to working at NPR.
And I started there in 2004, andless than a year later, I was in
the cafeteria line at NPR, andthe guy who was our COO at the
time was behind me trying tomake some kind of awkward
(01:28):
chitchat.
He says, well, what'sinteresting that you've seen
lately?
And I said, well, there's thispodcasting thing.
And I started explaining to himin the lunch line, just to kind
of make conversation.
He's like, oh, come by and giveme a little spiel on it.
And so I came, I made anappointment, went and gave him a
spiel.
A couple of weeks later, heshows back up at my door and
says, you have a team of eightand you have 12 weeks.
(01:51):
And at the end of that 12 weeks,we want there to be NPR
podcasts.
I'm like, okay.
And we actually delivered it amonth.
We got an extra month.
We delivered it.
It was 32 podcasts.
And then for the followingdecade, I kind of remained kind
of the editorial lead on NPRpodcasts, both podcasts.
figuring out how to take NPRprogramming and have it thrive
in the podcast world, soundauthentic there, and also making
(02:13):
new things that were intendedoriginally to be in that space.
And did that for a decade.
And then a couple of years ago,probably four and a half years
or so ago, I left NPR and wentto Audible, which is part of the
Amazon extended universe, andcreated the original content
team there.
And Then about a year or so ago,one of my friends and I left and
(02:38):
started Magnificent Noise, whichis a podcast production and
consultation company based inNew York.
SPEAKER_00 (02:45):
And so now you have your first podcast-related book,
Make Noise.
Yeah.
And as I was going through andreading it, and specifically one
of the things that you harp on,which we'll dive into about the
10-word description, I was like,let me go back to the front
cover and see if he...
followed his own rules, and youdid.
(03:06):
You even got an extra word tospare, A Creator's Guide to
Podcasting and Great AudioStorytelling.
So why did you feel like now wasthe time to publish this book?
You've been in podcastingbasically since the beginning,
longer than just about anyonelistening to this episode.
So why did you feel like now wasa really good time to bring this
(03:27):
book out into the world and topromote
UNKNOWN (03:30):
it?
SPEAKER_01 (03:30):
That's a really good question because I think there's
two factors.
One, I think we are now at thepoint where there is such a
groundswell of interest inpodcasting that having a book
about podcast creation thatisn't like tips for equipment to
buy or how to make money at itbut is really focused on how to
do something well, that's acommercially viable product now.
(03:51):
And I don't think even a coupleyears ago it was when I've been
approached a couple times aboutdoing this over the years.
And I'm like, I just don't thinkit's– I think it's a niche
product.
I don't think it's– It's goingto be worth my time to spend
time writing that book.
And the last time I was askedabout it, I said yes and was
kind of shocked at the reaction.
And one of the great thingsabout seeing podcasting evolve
(04:13):
is watching at points like this.
that this is a profession and avocation and a hobby, and there
are tools for it, both a book ormicrophones or recording units
or things that were literallyunimaginable four or five years
ago.
Now, I'm a big fan of theRodecaster Pro, which is a
(04:35):
little desktop unit that Iadvocate a lot of podcasters buy
because it's$600, containingtechnology that would have cost
you$10,000,$15,000 to duplicateforever.
Four or five years ago.
I mean, that to me is excitingand amazing.
So first, I think we've kind ofmatured into being an industry
now that can support that kindof thinking and a product like a
(04:57):
book.
And the second reason is...
There's so many new podcasts.
And the thing that surprises meas someone who is a consultant
for a lot of people,individuals, and I work with
people who are sitting aroundtheir kitchen table trying to
figure things out, up to some ofthe largest media companies in
the world.
(05:17):
And the conversations they haveare almost identical, even
though you have many moredollars, much bigger names and
crazy resources compared topeople who are trying to figure
out how to do this with theirfriend.
Their obstacles are often thesame.
They're kind of concerns orfears of how to get into this.
(05:39):
And they get stuck on the samethings too.
And so when I started to realizehow universal a lot of the
problems are that prevent peoplefrom being able to achieve what
they want to do, I'm like,there's solutions to that.
I've struggled through this alot myself.
So I just, and I was alsoworried when I was first asked
about this book that I couldwrite about a chapter and that
(06:01):
would be about it.
And so I had a couple of daysoff for some reason.
I sat down and said, okay, I'mjust going to try.
I didn't even say yes to writingthe book.
I'm just going to try to write achapter.
And I sat down and I thoughtabout what frustrates people and
I just started.
And it became very clear to methat there was something to be
said to an increasingly growingcommunity of people.
SPEAKER_00 (06:22):
Well, and what I appreciate about the angle that
you took with the book is thatit's not, it is and it isn't a
book for beginner podcasters inthe sense that if you're just
getting started, it's a veryvaluable resource to help you
avoid some of those earlymistakes, classic mistakes,
rookie mistakes that you see.
But it's also extremelychallenging to, Even for someone
(06:44):
like myself that's been inpodcasting for years, you start
reading through this and you'relike, I don't do half the stuff
that I even intellectually knowI should be doing.
And one that I want to reallyspend some time with, because I
feel like it would be the mostvaluable for people listening,
is the 10-word description.
Because one of my constantwrestling matches is that I, as
(07:08):
a...
As a creative outlet, I want mypodcast to be self-serving in
certain ways.
I want to wake up excited aboutmaking new episodes.
I want to expand my creativity.
I want to try new things,experiment with new things.
But you do a really good job ofkind of helping push against
that in a really good way andthe importance of staying
focused.
And and really being laserfocused on why does your podcast
(07:32):
exist for the expectations ofyour listeners and making sure
you over deliver on that.
So I'd love to just maybe evenif you want to just share the
anecdote that you had about youryoga teacher and kind of going
through that exercise.
So I thought that was a goodstory.
And I think we'll flesh out theimportance of having a really
clear idea of what your podcastis about.
SPEAKER_01 (07:51):
Yeah, I think a lot of my work is, just in general,
a lot of my work, including thisbook, is simply taking people's
heads and pointing them in aslightly different direction.
They're worried about whatthey're going to do whenever
someone says they want to do apodcast, and I say, what is it?
They often describe it from avery features-based perspective.
Oh, I'm going to haveconversations with women
(08:11):
filmmakers about women in film.
That's a feature that's not abenefit.
And I always try to get peoplewhen that perspective shift is,
and this is where my history asa broadcaster comes in, of let's
think about the audience forthat.
Let's not think about what youare at this moment.
Let's start with the listener.
(08:32):
It used to be part of my kind ofstandard stump speech.
I would say even the yogainstructor down the street has a
podcast.
And one day I was in yoga classand my yoga instructor came up
to me and said, can I talk toyou after class?
My first thought was like, oh,what did I do that required a
(08:52):
talking to after class?
I'm like, oh, I didn't want tothink about this.
And I kind of forgot about it.
And then he kind of came he cameup to me like that day or a day
later next class and said, hey,you know, everybody tells me I
should have a podcast.
And I'm like, oh, now even myyoga instructor has a podcast or
wants to have a podcast.
And so I sat down with him and Istarted kind of talking about
(09:14):
some of the concepts that I usewith broadcasters or media
people and realized they werefar too advanced for where he
was at.
He just had this passion to talkto people and he had something
to say, but he had no idea ofhow to think about it.
And so I ended up drawing on apiece of paper, a circle or what
became a circle with a couple ofpoints on it.
(09:35):
And it kind of developed anexercise that I still use with
people all the time, whether I'mdoing it in a bar napkin or on a
dry erase board in a conferenceroom where we talk about who is
the audience for this, getincredibly specific about who
they are and what journey areyou putting them on?
And that's why it becomes acircle because all these things
kind of flow into each other ofasking yourself, what do you
(09:58):
have to say to that person onceyou've defined them?
And you get very specific.
I make people look up picturesand print them out.
We put them up on the wall.
We give them names and fakebios.
And then we consolidate them allinto what we think the person
is.
What do you have to say to them?
Who are you?
What version of yourself or whatis your voice in this?
What is your perspective, yourpersonality?
(10:20):
And then what is the outcome,the desired outcome?
And then we get into thisexercise that I kind of force
people into.
And the way I usually do it now,since I'm always evolving this
exercise, is I make people writeit, and then they kind of hide
it from everyone.
And during the rest of theworkshop, they can edit it.
And at the end of the workshop,everyone reads their versions of
these 10-word descriptions thatdescribe your project and
(10:43):
nothing else in the world.
No one in the room should beable to say, yeah, there's also
another podcast of women talkingto women filmmakers about
women's film.
There are others.
So what makes yours distinct?
Are you focusing on filmmakersin the Minneapolis-St.
Paul area?
Are you talking about a specificage or a specific genre of film
(11:07):
or a specific time period inwhich films were made?
Include that in yourdescription.
So you're literally describingone podcast in a world of almost
a million others, right?
And that provides you with aneditorial lens that you can then
use to make all kinds ofdecisions about what's right for
your podcast from its title, howit describes itself, its
(11:28):
artwork, the type of guests youhave, the kind of conversations
you have.
The answer to those fivequestions, the basic things that
go around the circle in the10-word exercise, you have that.
You have a huge amount ofclarity.
that you never would have hadbefore or spent years kind of
figuring out one episode at atime.
And many people don't have yearsto figure it out.
SPEAKER_00 (11:49):
Sure.
Yeah.
Most people starting podcastsaren't funded.
It's all, you know, I've got aspare bedroom and a microphone
and maybe this will work andmaybe it won't.
And so, and I think somethingthat you...
If I had to kind of create asecond subtitle for your book,
it would be saving the worldfrom mediocre podcast.
(12:11):
Trying to.
And not to say that anyone can'tjust buy a microphone and start
a podcast with their friends.
I think that's the beauty ofpodcasting.
But really appropriatelymatching the expectations.
That if you dream of creating apodcast that has a worldwide
impact and is getting tens ofthousands of downloads every
single episode, then there's acertain threshold that you need
(12:34):
to reach in the quality of yourcontent and in the way that you
stay focused on your lane andwhat makes you unique to set
yourself up for that kind ofsuccess.
Would you say that that is trueor am I totally misjudging?
No,
SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
it's actually quite deliberate.
I spend a lot of my professionaltime kind of looking at things
that work that other people doand that I do too.
But obviously I do so manythings and the rest of the world
does a lot of other things.
So I spend a lot of time lookingat things, trying to kind of
deconstruct why things don'twork.
(13:09):
and why they do work, and thentrying to figure out, okay,
what's my spin on that thing?
From starting my company to thework we did at Audible to lots
of things at NPR, theinspiration for A Bright Idea
was actually watching otherpeople struggle with the same
problem.
And I can't help but apply thatto many aspects of my life.
(13:31):
And when I give talks, one ofthe things that surprises people
pleasantly that they recognizethis because I do it very
deliberately is a lot of timeswhen you see a podcast or
someone with some modicum ofsuccess get up on a stage, it's
basically show and tell and bragabout how great I am and the
work I've done and shouldn't yoube– Thank you so much.
(14:14):
And you are passionate aboutdoing it.
They love it.
That to me is just as successfulas S-Town or Ted Radio Hour or
the Joe Rogan experience withmillions of downloads.
And you can equally have thingsthat are at that level that end
up failing because even thoughthey're being downloaded
millions of times, they've kindof lost their spark.
(14:34):
They're not really kind ofinnovating anymore, so on and so
forth.
So I think that success isreally one of the benefits of
defining your audience andunderstanding who you're
speaking to is it gives you areal clear set of expectations
around what success means.
And you can have all the passionin the world towards doing a
podcast.
And if your expectations are offabout what you should be hearing
(14:59):
back, what you should be seeingas downloads, what you consider
to be worth your time, it candeflate that passion.
And I think that's a crime.
You know, passion is the onething you can't– passion and
curiosity are the two things inpodcasting that you can't fake.
You can't kind of get up in themorning and say, okay, I'm going
to be passionate and curioustoday.
I'm going to force my waythrough it.
(15:20):
You can't fake it until you makeit.
You have to have it.
And there are people who throwtons of money at podcasting and
tons of time at podcasting, tonsof resources, and they don't
have those two things.
And they just– and it ends upkind of flopping.
And then they're curious as towhy.
Yeah.
So when I hear someone stand upin a Q&A session at a talk or
(15:42):
whatever, and they tell me abouttheir podcast they're making,
and you can kind of tell themtheir voice that they're
expecting me to be dismissive ofthem.
I'm actually, I'm giving them mybest thinking of like, okay, you
want to make a podcast forpeople who knit?
Here's three things you shouldthink about.
And this is how you can be thevoice of a group of people who
care about this the way you do.
(16:03):
And I think that's really animportant thing.
And if you walk into podcastingthinking you're going to make a
million dollars or every episodeneeds to have a million
downloads, I can tell you nowthere's no mystery to that.
You're probably going to fail.
But if you set your expectationsaccording to, like, I have
things to say that I won't beable to sleep at night unless
I'm able to say them.
Or I care about something somuch that I want to be part of
(16:27):
the conversation around thatthing.
That's passion driving it.
And all the other markers ofsuccess originate from that
passion.
Joe Rogan didn't get intopodcasting for any other reason
other than it was fun.
He had something to say, andbasically it was fun.
Marc Maron, fun.
Roman Mars, fun.
(16:48):
Ira Glass, fun.
And then they figured out how tomake it into something that was
big.
But it started off just beingfun.
SPEAKER_00 (16:57):
Yeah, you don't make a podcast so you can be
sponsored by Cash App.
SPEAKER_01 (17:02):
Right, right.
But there's this comical NewYork Times article that came out
a couple months ago of thiswoman.
She and her friend put out amarketing podcast and stopped a
couple months later because theyhadn't gotten any sponsorship
offers.
It's just like, is this an Onionarticle?
It just reads like it's– whatwere they thinking was going to
(17:22):
happen?
UNKNOWN (17:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:23):
I think that some podcasts that could be very good
embracing what they are and havea fruitful, long life and really
be a rewarding experience bothfor the creator and the
audience, they get discouragedand stop because they just don't
understand how to setexpectations.
I think that's an important partof the creative process.
SPEAKER_00 (17:46):
For sure.
Well, and you touch on this alittle bit in the book about the
balance of ambition versusresources.
And you couch it in the terms oflike, if you're doing a live
radio show, there's only so muchediting you can do.
But if you have three months toplan out this serial podcast,
then you can do a lot more.
(18:06):
But even applying that to timeand financial resources for
independent podcasters versusthe podcast that a lot of
people...
C is being like, this is what asuccessful podcast sounds like.
It can be very overwhelming tothink, well, that's what I have
to do to make a podcast.
But kind of what you weretalking about, what counts as
(18:27):
success for an NPR-style podcastwith a team of 15 people is
totally different than someonetalking about what they're
passionate about in theirbedroom.
So I thought that was just agreat point that you made in the
book.
SPEAKER_01 (18:40):
Well, thank you.
I think that a lot of people...
get very confused about theamount of resources they should
be putting into something andthink that they can spend their
way, some companies think theycan spend their way to success,
and other people think that Ihave to lower my editorial
ambition because I only have somuch time.
(19:00):
And I think both those areabsolutely wrong.
My company works on a podcastwith Esther Perel, where she is
giving therapy to romanticcouples, and it's called Where
Should We Begin?
And then there's another new onewe're doing with Esther, How's
Work?, which is looking at workrelationships.
And that whole podcast isdesigned around having a very
(19:23):
limited resource, which isEsther's time.
That she doesn't have time tosit there and spend 15 hours to
prep something and write a hugelong script and whatever.
We get her in little grabs anddribbles throughout her
schedule, and so we had todesign the podcast Not about
money, not about...
The best asset we had was themost limited thing we had, which
(19:45):
was her time.
And so we kind of figured outhow to make the podcast with
that as a factor.
Other podcasts have differentcreative restrictions.
I am a believer that creativerestrictions actually...
Editorial restrictions, timerestrictions, asset resource
restrictions...
inspire creativity becausepeople want to come up with
(20:09):
solutions to problems.
So if you don't have a lot oftime or you don't have a lot of
help or you don't have a lot ofmoney, that doesn't mean you
can't do something reallyexciting.
It just means you have to thinkabout how to work with those
realities, right?
If I have two arms and I loseone arm, I'm not going to say,
okay, well, I'm done living now.
I figured out how to live withone arm.
(20:30):
Right.
So with any scarcity of resourceis something that is almost any
scarcity of resources, somethingyou can kind of counterbalance
with something else.
SPEAKER_00 (20:39):
So I want to get into some, I guess, some more
practical questions that I thinkwill specifically relate to
questions that independentpodcasters would have, because
that's most of the people thatwill be listening to this.
The first one would be thenature of the launch.
and how much of early success isattributed to the connections
(21:00):
and exposure and the networkthat you have and can tap versus
the quality of the contentitself.
Because I know a lot ofindependent podcasters feel
like, well, I'm in control ofmaking a podcast I'm proud of,
but I'm not friends with MarcMaron.
I'm not friends with Joe Rogan.
I'm not a part of the NPRpodcast network and getting
airtime on all those othershows.
(21:21):
So for them, for an independentpodcaster that's trying to pop,
that's trying to really have agreat launch and get some
positive momentum, what are thethings that they could focus on
that might be more in theircontrol?
SPEAKER_01 (21:31):
Well, there's a lot more in control than most people
think.
I think people look at theresources that some podcasters
have, and they think, I don'thave that, so I can't set my
ambitions high.
But again, there's a workaroundfor almost everything.
I say all this with the caveatthat the best marketing plan
starts with a tenacious effortto just make the next episode
(21:53):
better than the last one.
How can I make it better?
How can I be sharper if I'minterviewing someone?
How can I get something out ofthat conversation that person
hasn't said 80 times?
If I'm doing a narrative, howcan I bring more to the story or
tell a better version of thestory?
And just being relentless inpursuing being a little bit
(22:13):
better every time you do it.
Because you can have the bestmarketing resources in the world
and a crappy show.
And it's what you'll see, oreven you see all this all the
time when celebrities jump in,there's a huge splash.
And then where are they twomonths later?
You know, if they're still doingit, it's not as, you know,
they're not as high up in thecharts.
They're not commanding theattention they were.
(22:34):
People aren't as excited aboutit because they've heard the
reality and the reality isn'tall that great many times, not
all the time, obviously.
But so I think that having greatcontent is key number one and
always trying to improve it ispart of that as well.
So if you don't know a MarkMaron or you don't know a Joe
Rogan or don't have an NPR orRadiotopia or whatever, how can
(22:59):
you create something that maynot be one friend but is a bunch
of other friends?
So if you are making a podcastabout beekeeping and you are
trying to make it a podcast forother enthusiasts in beekeeping,
where do those peoplecongregate?
They congregate in Facebookgroups and conventions and
newsletters and websites andforums and whatever.
(23:22):
You can sit there and list offwithout...
spending a lot of time.
Where do these peoplecongregate?
And as I mentioned this in thebook, it's actually all ideas
that I've stolen over the yearsfrom various guerrilla marketers
that you really have to build anetwork of people who are
connected to the subject matter,who have a little bit of
(23:43):
influence, even a tiny bit ofinfluence.
And if you look at...
If you get...
20 people to tweet on yourbehalf who are reaching the
people you care about or whohave those friends, that's more
powerful than one big, hugething.
If you're trying to make apodcast about beekeeping, you
actually don't want Mark Marontweeting about you because most
of his audience aren't going tocare about what you're talking
(24:06):
about.
But if you go to the people whodo care, find out where they
are, build yourself into thatcommunity and say, hey, I'm
doing this for our community.
Would you like to be part of it?
The story in the book I tell,which has proven true time and
time again, which is a podcasterI was working with as a client.
I just like this guy.
I don't even really charge himvery often, but I like this guy.
(24:27):
He's like, I feel kind offlatlined.
I can't get my numbers to grow.
And I said, for six weeks, startoff every episode.
He's doing a weekly podcast.
Start off every episode with, ifyou love this podcast, I need
something from you to help itgrow.
I need you to tell one person.
I need you to tell one, write anemail, a tweet, Facebook post,
(24:47):
reach out to someone and tellone person.
And six weeks went by and I'mtalking to him and I call him up
and he's like, something'swrong.
I don't understand what'shappening.
Like, what is happening?
He's like, my numbers are up35%.
There's no mystery to that.
You asked your audience ofpeople who love you and care for
you.
And in his case, when he wasalready doing like a listener
(25:08):
support thing, they were givinghim money.
He said, look, what I need fromyou now to really keep this
going is just to share it withsomebody.
And they did it.
And it worked.
It didn't cost a dime.
I say frequently, and peopleraise their eyebrows when I say
this, who are at largercompanies, because they spend a
(25:29):
lot advertising podcasts.
I tell them I have never seenanyone spend a dollar
advertising a podcast that paidback.
I just don't think it works.
I do see network effect of, Ilove this.
Listen to it.
You'll love it too.
That works.
You know, bringing people ontoyour podcast and kind of you
being guests, kind of swappingguest spots on each other's
(25:50):
podcast works.
Dropping in promos into onepodcast feed works.
Dropping an episode into apodcast feed works.
Like all this stuff works and itdoesn't cost anything.
And if you can't do that on amassive scale, like a Radiotopia
or a Stitcher, you can do it onyour friends and other
podcasters or find people inlike a ring of influence where
(26:12):
you can all support each other.
One thing I mentioned in thebook is find five other
podcasters and agree that everyweek you're all going to promote
one of you.
And you just circle it around soeveryone gets a turn being in
the spotlight, and you spend theother four or five weeks giving
the spotlight.
And that works.
We figured that out at NPR, andNPR still follows those tactics
(26:36):
today that we developed of thebest marketing we have is just
telling people who probably areinterested that they would like
it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:43):
Well, and I love how everything kind of comes back to
understanding your listenersuper well.
The better you understand thelistener, the better able you
are to make those decisionsabout what to include and not
include in your podcast, whereto find more of them, how to
speak to their pain points andwhy they would want to listen to
a show like that.
So I love that it all kind ofcomes full circle.
(27:06):
Now, one other thing I want tomake sure that we have time for
is you go pretty in-depth in thebook on the art of interviewing.
And I call it the art ofinterviewing because every
single person brings their ownsense of curiosity and their own
angle of the kinds of questionsthey like to ask and the process
that they have.
But I would love just to hear...
(27:26):
You walk through kind of theprocess of preparing for an
interview, what goes into that.
And then even after theinterview is done, when you have
all the tape that you're goingto have and you have to figure
out what's going to make it intothe final episode, what kind of
decisions that you make as aproducer to really create the
best episode possible?
SPEAKER_01 (27:46):
That's an interesting question because of
all the things I wrote about inthe book.
Interviewing is the thing that Ithink I am weakest at and have
struggled the most with.
There's two basic forms ofinterviews.
One is when you're out in thefield working on a narrative
story and you're interviewingpeople who will be part of your
narrative story that you'reproducing.
(28:06):
If you hear any clip in anynarrative podcast, that came out
of an interview most likely.
And I love doing that.
And actually, I think I'mcompetent at it.
I am not someone who shines in asituation like what we're doing,
being the questioner.
I find it really difficult forme to do.
(28:27):
And I've struggled with it tothe point that I don't really do
that much of it anymore.
Because I just think there'sother people I'd rather put in
the position of doing it becausethey're stronger at it.
But in my struggles with it,I've learned a couple
perspective approaches that Ithink really help.
And the first one is to stoppretending to be Terry Gross or
(28:47):
Howard Stern or Trevor Noah orEllen or whomever you admire
who's an interviewer and justtrying to be that person like
you're a play acting.
And I think that's where mostinterviews go sideways is people
forget to just be themselves.
If you don't have a sense ofwonder about your subject,
there's lots that you want toask them.
(29:08):
If you're curious, you shouldn'tbe doing that interview.
They aren't the right booking oryou weren't the right host for
that conversation.
And so that's like number one,80% of problems are solved with
just that perspective shift.
But, you know, so let's say youare really curious.
You want to go in and interviewsomeone.
(29:30):
I make my staff do this when weare doing interviews.
I train people that we work withto think like this of you walk
into that interview with a plan.
You know what you're going totalk about.
You know what order you're goingto talk about things in.
You have written out questions.
You've debated questions withyour colleagues, or if you have
(29:51):
them, or had someone to give youfeedback and give you like, what
are we really trying to find outhere?
What are we trying to know?
What are we trying to learn?
And you come up with a realrigorous plan and then you go
into the interview prepared tothrow it out if you want to.
I often counsel people.
We went out and did a fieldrecording the other day of like,
(30:11):
you know what you need to get inthis interview.
You know what the table stakesare for this to be an interview.
So go in, get that, and thendon't worry about the rest.
You'll remember questions thatwere on your list.
You'll think of new questions.
You'll be listening so thatyou'll follow up on things.
And just make sure that you haveboth the discipline to have a
(30:33):
roadmap of where to go, but thenthe freedom of allowing yourself
to just follow what the momentfeels right.
And trust that that's probably,if you find it an interesting
subject, most other people inyour audience are also going to
find it interesting.
Then you scale this depending onthe amount of resource and time
you have.
(30:54):
Afterwards, what I like to do,my process is I use a program
called Descript, which is afantastic program where you dump
audio files in and it does an AItranscript kind of on the fly.
And you can edit the text and itactually creates a Pro Tools and
audition session for you.
based off the cuts you make.
So we often make the first cutof an interview in Descript just
(31:17):
based off paper without evenlistening to it.
But you go back in once you'vehad that, you've dumped into
Descript and it happens like ina minute.
And I believe for even an entrylevel interview, you get a
certain amount of time that theywill do it for free.
So it's very low cost.
And you look at what you haveand you read it and you, I'd
mark it up like, okay, this isthis section.
This is about when they werelearning to play guitar.
(31:39):
And this is a section abouttheir first band.
And this is a section abouttheir recording contract.
And this is a section when theywrote the song.
Right.
And I kind of write this.
I'm like, which, where do I wantto start this conversation?
And how do I make it flow?
And I make little notes andtreat an interview.
Like it's a story.
Like you're actually creatingsomething that is meant to be
(31:59):
listened to in an order as if itwas you were telling a story.
And even very technicalinterviews still can follow into
that same flow.
And that's when you start toedit.
And whether you have an hour toedit or 20 hours to edit,
there's a version of thatprocess that you can use.
If I only have an hour to editsomething and sometimes when
you're editing on deadline, it'sthe reality of it.
(32:20):
Okay, what are the mostimportant beats here and how do
I get rid of everything else?
And don't worry about timebecause in podcasting there are
no rules.
You can make it whatever lengthyou want to usually.
Make it as good as it needs tobe and not a minute longer.
SPEAKER_00 (32:34):
No, I love that.
I love that advice.
And I was, on first reading,overwhelmed by the amount of
editing that goes into, becauseyour background is NPR, some of
those shows where it's 15 hoursat times of prep for an
interview.
And then that long, if notlonger, on the backside to
(32:55):
actually create the episodes.
And for me, it just gave me areal appreciation for when I
listen to a podcast episodeExactly.
And that's totally fine.
I don't have to be NPR to have agreat podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (33:19):
No, and you could also think of the reality of
what if you have time to...
I always tell people, take theamount of time you have to spend
on an episode and divide it inhalf.
Half of it should be before youdo the interview and half of it
afterwards.
And if you only have two orthree hours, you can devote to
it.
And there are many people that'sthe case.
Hour and a half thinking abouthow you want to do the episode,
(33:41):
hour and a half afterwards toclean it up and get rid of the
stuff that doesn't really feelexciting to you.
And that's enough.
I think any investment of timeis a good investment of time.
I see some of these people.
I just talked to a couple ofthem for my media tour.
They crank out an episode a day.
Their limit is how many hoursthey have in that day to prep
(34:04):
for an interview, do theinterview, cut the interview,
and post the interview in a day.
And they turn out good stuff.
So sometimes just because likean NPR takes 15 hours of prep
and 15 hours of editing doesn'tnecessarily mean they end up
with something that's 15 timesbetter than the guy who has an
hour to prepare and an hour toedit afterwards.
I think it's a false construct.
SPEAKER_00 (34:24):
Final question for you.
What would you say is the pieceof advice you find yourself
giving most often to people thatare just getting started or on
the front end of theirpodcasting kind of trajectory?
SPEAKER_01 (34:35):
I often tell people, forget about format and worry
more about function.
Who are you talking to andwhat's your message?
If you want to make a podcastabout the future and you're
really excited about the future,and think the future is full of
great things, that's a verydifferent podcast than if you
(34:56):
think the future is dire andmaybe the end of our species or
what have you.
Those are two very differentpodcasts.
So even when you have a podcastor interview with people about
the future, what does that mean?
What is your message, yourattitude?
What are you bringing to it,your perspective?
And spend as much time thinking,and the questions about like,
(35:19):
What format should I have?
Should I have a co-host?
Should I have any people?
Should I be interviewing atonce?
All that stuff is like the lastthing you think about.
And just spend time thinkingabout who are you, what do you
have to say, and who you want tosay it to.
And that most people don't takethe time to think that through,
and that's why most peoplestruggle.
Hey, Travis Albritton here.
So I hope these episodes havebeen super helpful for you
getting your show off the groundand having the confidence that
you need to really launch apodcast, which is such an
incredible thing.
Now, I recently had theopportunity to sit down for a
conversation with Eric Newsom,who has been an executive
producer on some of the biggestpodcasts in the world, many of
(00:22):
NPR's podcasts, Ted's podcasts,and just brings a lot of insight
and depth of wisdom topodcasting.
And so I wanted to share thiswith you as kind of like a
podcasting 201.
This interview is what to doonce you have your show going
and you really want to seewhat's the next step, what's the
next level that I can get towith my podcast.
(00:45):
He just wrote a brand new bookon podcasting called Make Noise.
I will leave a link to the bookin the episode description.
It's a fantastic book.
So I hope that this conversationis helpful for you and that you
get a lot out of it.
And without further ado, here'smy conversation with Eric
Newsom.
SPEAKER_01 (01:05):
So my name is Eric Newsom, and I spent most of the
early part of my career inbroadcast and eventually worked
my way up to working at NPR.
And I started there in 2004, andless than a year later, I was in
the cafeteria line at NPR, andthe guy who was our COO at the
time was behind me trying tomake some kind of awkward
(01:28):
chitchat.
He says, well, what'sinteresting that you've seen
lately?
And I said, well, there's thispodcasting thing.
And I started explaining to himin the lunch line, just to kind
of make conversation.
He's like, oh, come by and giveme a little spiel on it.
And so I came, I made anappointment, went and gave him a
spiel.
A couple of weeks later, heshows back up at my door and
says, you have a team of eightand you have 12 weeks.
(01:51):
And at the end of that 12 weeks,we want there to be NPR
podcasts.
I'm like, okay.
And we actually delivered it amonth.
We got an extra month.
We delivered it.
It was 32 podcasts.
And then for the followingdecade, I kind of remained kind
of the editorial lead on NPRpodcasts, both podcasts.
figuring out how to take NPRprogramming and have it thrive
in the podcast world, soundauthentic there, and also making
(02:13):
new things that were intendedoriginally to be in that space.
And did that for a decade.
And then a couple of years ago,probably four and a half years
or so ago, I left NPR and wentto Audible, which is part of the
Amazon extended universe, andcreated the original content
team there.
And Then about a year or so ago,one of my friends and I left and
(02:38):
started Magnificent Noise, whichis a podcast production and
consultation company based inNew York.
SPEAKER_00 (02:45):
And so now you have your first podcast-related book,
Make Noise.
Yeah.
And as I was going through andreading it, and specifically one
of the things that you harp on,which we'll dive into about the
10-word description, I was like,let me go back to the front
cover and see if he...
followed his own rules, and youdid.
(03:06):
You even got an extra word tospare, A Creator's Guide to
Podcasting and Great AudioStorytelling.
So why did you feel like now wasthe time to publish this book?
You've been in podcastingbasically since the beginning,
longer than just about anyonelistening to this episode.
So why did you feel like now wasa really good time to bring this
(03:27):
book out into the world and topromote
UNKNOWN (03:30):
it?
SPEAKER_01 (03:30):
That's a really good question because I think there's
two factors.
One, I think we are now at thepoint where there is such a
groundswell of interest inpodcasting that having a book
about podcast creation thatisn't like tips for equipment to
buy or how to make money at itbut is really focused on how to
do something well, that's acommercially viable product now.
(03:51):
And I don't think even a coupleyears ago it was when I've been
approached a couple times aboutdoing this over the years.
And I'm like, I just don't thinkit's– I think it's a niche
product.
I don't think it's– It's goingto be worth my time to spend
time writing that book.
And the last time I was askedabout it, I said yes and was
kind of shocked at the reaction.
And one of the great thingsabout seeing podcasting evolve
(04:13):
is watching at points like this.
that this is a profession and avocation and a hobby, and there
are tools for it, both a book ormicrophones or recording units
or things that were literallyunimaginable four or five years
ago.
Now, I'm a big fan of theRodecaster Pro, which is a
(04:35):
little desktop unit that Iadvocate a lot of podcasters buy
because it's$600, containingtechnology that would have cost
you$10,000,$15,000 to duplicateforever.
Four or five years ago.
I mean, that to me is excitingand amazing.
So first, I think we've kind ofmatured into being an industry
now that can support that kindof thinking and a product like a
(04:57):
book.
And the second reason is...
There's so many new podcasts.
And the thing that surprises meas someone who is a consultant
for a lot of people,individuals, and I work with
people who are sitting aroundtheir kitchen table trying to
figure things out, up to some ofthe largest media companies in
the world.
(05:17):
And the conversations they haveare almost identical, even
though you have many moredollars, much bigger names and
crazy resources compared topeople who are trying to figure
out how to do this with theirfriend.
Their obstacles are often thesame.
They're kind of concerns orfears of how to get into this.
(05:39):
And they get stuck on the samethings too.
And so when I started to realizehow universal a lot of the
problems are that prevent peoplefrom being able to achieve what
they want to do, I'm like,there's solutions to that.
I've struggled through this alot myself.
So I just, and I was alsoworried when I was first asked
about this book that I couldwrite about a chapter and that
(06:01):
would be about it.
And so I had a couple of daysoff for some reason.
I sat down and said, okay, I'mjust going to try.
I didn't even say yes to writingthe book.
I'm just going to try to write achapter.
And I sat down and I thoughtabout what frustrates people and
I just started.
And it became very clear to methat there was something to be
said to an increasingly growingcommunity of people.
SPEAKER_00 (06:22):
Well, and what I appreciate about the angle that
you took with the book is thatit's not, it is and it isn't a
book for beginner podcasters inthe sense that if you're just
getting started, it's a veryvaluable resource to help you
avoid some of those earlymistakes, classic mistakes,
rookie mistakes that you see.
But it's also extremelychallenging to, Even for someone
(06:44):
like myself that's been inpodcasting for years, you start
reading through this and you'relike, I don't do half the stuff
that I even intellectually knowI should be doing.
And one that I want to reallyspend some time with, because I
feel like it would be the mostvaluable for people listening,
is the 10-word description.
Because one of my constantwrestling matches is that I, as
(07:08):
a...
As a creative outlet, I want mypodcast to be self-serving in
certain ways.
I want to wake up excited aboutmaking new episodes.
I want to expand my creativity.
I want to try new things,experiment with new things.
But you do a really good job ofkind of helping push against
that in a really good way andthe importance of staying
focused.
And and really being laserfocused on why does your podcast
(07:32):
exist for the expectations ofyour listeners and making sure
you over deliver on that.
So I'd love to just maybe evenif you want to just share the
anecdote that you had about youryoga teacher and kind of going
through that exercise.
So I thought that was a goodstory.
And I think we'll flesh out theimportance of having a really
clear idea of what your podcastis about.
SPEAKER_01 (07:51):
Yeah, I think a lot of my work is, just in general,
a lot of my work, including thisbook, is simply taking people's
heads and pointing them in aslightly different direction.
They're worried about whatthey're going to do whenever
someone says they want to do apodcast, and I say, what is it?
They often describe it from avery features-based perspective.
Oh, I'm going to haveconversations with women
(08:11):
filmmakers about women in film.
That's a feature that's not abenefit.
And I always try to get peoplewhen that perspective shift is,
and this is where my history asa broadcaster comes in, of let's
think about the audience forthat.
Let's not think about what youare at this moment.
Let's start with the listener.
(08:32):
It used to be part of my kind ofstandard stump speech.
I would say even the yogainstructor down the street has a
podcast.
And one day I was in yoga classand my yoga instructor came up
to me and said, can I talk toyou after class?
My first thought was like, oh,what did I do that required a
(08:52):
talking to after class?
I'm like, oh, I didn't want tothink about this.
And I kind of forgot about it.
And then he kind of came he cameup to me like that day or a day
later next class and said, hey,you know, everybody tells me I
should have a podcast.
And I'm like, oh, now even myyoga instructor has a podcast or
wants to have a podcast.
And so I sat down with him and Istarted kind of talking about
(09:14):
some of the concepts that I usewith broadcasters or media
people and realized they werefar too advanced for where he
was at.
He just had this passion to talkto people and he had something
to say, but he had no idea ofhow to think about it.
And so I ended up drawing on apiece of paper, a circle or what
became a circle with a couple ofpoints on it.
(09:35):
And it kind of developed anexercise that I still use with
people all the time, whether I'mdoing it in a bar napkin or on a
dry erase board in a conferenceroom where we talk about who is
the audience for this, getincredibly specific about who
they are and what journey areyou putting them on?
And that's why it becomes acircle because all these things
kind of flow into each other ofasking yourself, what do you
(09:58):
have to say to that person onceyou've defined them?
And you get very specific.
I make people look up picturesand print them out.
We put them up on the wall.
We give them names and fakebios.
And then we consolidate them allinto what we think the person
is.
What do you have to say to them?
Who are you?
What version of yourself or whatis your voice in this?
What is your perspective, yourpersonality?
(10:20):
And then what is the outcome,the desired outcome?
And then we get into thisexercise that I kind of force
people into.
And the way I usually do it now,since I'm always evolving this
exercise, is I make people writeit, and then they kind of hide
it from everyone.
And during the rest of theworkshop, they can edit it.
And at the end of the workshop,everyone reads their versions of
these 10-word descriptions thatdescribe your project and
(10:43):
nothing else in the world.
No one in the room should beable to say, yeah, there's also
another podcast of women talkingto women filmmakers about
women's film.
There are others.
So what makes yours distinct?
Are you focusing on filmmakersin the Minneapolis-St.
Paul area?
Are you talking about a specificage or a specific genre of film
(11:07):
or a specific time period inwhich films were made?
Include that in yourdescription.
So you're literally describingone podcast in a world of almost
a million others, right?
And that provides you with aneditorial lens that you can then
use to make all kinds ofdecisions about what's right for
your podcast from its title, howit describes itself, its
(11:28):
artwork, the type of guests youhave, the kind of conversations
you have.
The answer to those fivequestions, the basic things that
go around the circle in the10-word exercise, you have that.
You have a huge amount ofclarity.
that you never would have hadbefore or spent years kind of
figuring out one episode at atime.
And many people don't have yearsto figure it out.
SPEAKER_00 (11:49):
Sure.
Yeah.
Most people starting podcastsaren't funded.
It's all, you know, I've got aspare bedroom and a microphone
and maybe this will work andmaybe it won't.
And so, and I think somethingthat you...
If I had to kind of create asecond subtitle for your book,
it would be saving the worldfrom mediocre podcast.
(12:11):
Trying to.
And not to say that anyone can'tjust buy a microphone and start
a podcast with their friends.
I think that's the beauty ofpodcasting.
But really appropriatelymatching the expectations.
That if you dream of creating apodcast that has a worldwide
impact and is getting tens ofthousands of downloads every
single episode, then there's acertain threshold that you need
(12:34):
to reach in the quality of yourcontent and in the way that you
stay focused on your lane andwhat makes you unique to set
yourself up for that kind ofsuccess.
Would you say that that is trueor am I totally misjudging?
No,
SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
it's actually quite deliberate.
I spend a lot of my professionaltime kind of looking at things
that work that other people doand that I do too.
But obviously I do so manythings and the rest of the world
does a lot of other things.
So I spend a lot of time lookingat things, trying to kind of
deconstruct why things don'twork.
(13:09):
and why they do work, and thentrying to figure out, okay,
what's my spin on that thing?
From starting my company to thework we did at Audible to lots
of things at NPR, theinspiration for A Bright Idea
was actually watching otherpeople struggle with the same
problem.
And I can't help but apply thatto many aspects of my life.
(13:31):
And when I give talks, one ofthe things that surprises people
pleasantly that they recognizethis because I do it very
deliberately is a lot of timeswhen you see a podcast or
someone with some modicum ofsuccess get up on a stage, it's
basically show and tell and bragabout how great I am and the
work I've done and shouldn't yoube– Thank you so much.
(14:14):
And you are passionate aboutdoing it.
They love it.
That to me is just as successfulas S-Town or Ted Radio Hour or
the Joe Rogan experience withmillions of downloads.
And you can equally have thingsthat are at that level that end
up failing because even thoughthey're being downloaded
millions of times, they've kindof lost their spark.
(14:34):
They're not really kind ofinnovating anymore, so on and so
forth.
So I think that success isreally one of the benefits of
defining your audience andunderstanding who you're
speaking to is it gives you areal clear set of expectations
around what success means.
And you can have all the passionin the world towards doing a
podcast.
And if your expectations are offabout what you should be hearing
(14:59):
back, what you should be seeingas downloads, what you consider
to be worth your time, it candeflate that passion.
And I think that's a crime.
You know, passion is the onething you can't– passion and
curiosity are the two things inpodcasting that you can't fake.
You can't kind of get up in themorning and say, okay, I'm going
to be passionate and curioustoday.
I'm going to force my waythrough it.
(15:20):
You can't fake it until you makeit.
You have to have it.
And there are people who throwtons of money at podcasting and
tons of time at podcasting, tonsof resources, and they don't
have those two things.
And they just– and it ends upkind of flopping.
And then they're curious as towhy.
Yeah.
So when I hear someone stand upin a Q&A session at a talk or
(15:42):
whatever, and they tell me abouttheir podcast they're making,
and you can kind of tell themtheir voice that they're
expecting me to be dismissive ofthem.
I'm actually, I'm giving them mybest thinking of like, okay, you
want to make a podcast forpeople who knit?
Here's three things you shouldthink about.
And this is how you can be thevoice of a group of people who
care about this the way you do.
(16:03):
And I think that's really animportant thing.
And if you walk into podcastingthinking you're going to make a
million dollars or every episodeneeds to have a million
downloads, I can tell you nowthere's no mystery to that.
You're probably going to fail.
But if you set your expectationsaccording to, like, I have
things to say that I won't beable to sleep at night unless
I'm able to say them.
Or I care about something somuch that I want to be part of
(16:27):
the conversation around thatthing.
That's passion driving it.
And all the other markers ofsuccess originate from that
passion.
Joe Rogan didn't get intopodcasting for any other reason
other than it was fun.
He had something to say, andbasically it was fun.
Marc Maron, fun.
Roman Mars, fun.
(16:48):
Ira Glass, fun.
And then they figured out how tomake it into something that was
big.
But it started off just beingfun.
SPEAKER_00 (16:57):
Yeah, you don't make a podcast so you can be
sponsored by Cash App.
SPEAKER_01 (17:02):
Right, right.
But there's this comical NewYork Times article that came out
a couple months ago of thiswoman.
She and her friend put out amarketing podcast and stopped a
couple months later because theyhadn't gotten any sponsorship
offers.
It's just like, is this an Onionarticle?
It just reads like it's– whatwere they thinking was going to
(17:22):
happen?
UNKNOWN (17:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:23):
I think that some podcasts that could be very good
embracing what they are and havea fruitful, long life and really
be a rewarding experience bothfor the creator and the
audience, they get discouragedand stop because they just don't
understand how to setexpectations.
I think that's an important partof the creative process.
SPEAKER_00 (17:46):
For sure.
Well, and you touch on this alittle bit in the book about the
balance of ambition versusresources.
And you couch it in the terms oflike, if you're doing a live
radio show, there's only so muchediting you can do.
But if you have three months toplan out this serial podcast,
then you can do a lot more.
(18:06):
But even applying that to timeand financial resources for
independent podcasters versusthe podcast that a lot of
people...
C is being like, this is what asuccessful podcast sounds like.
It can be very overwhelming tothink, well, that's what I have
to do to make a podcast.
But kind of what you weretalking about, what counts as
(18:27):
success for an NPR-style podcastwith a team of 15 people is
totally different than someonetalking about what they're
passionate about in theirbedroom.
So I thought that was just agreat point that you made in the
book.
SPEAKER_01 (18:40):
Well, thank you.
I think that a lot of people...
get very confused about theamount of resources they should
be putting into something andthink that they can spend their
way, some companies think theycan spend their way to success,
and other people think that Ihave to lower my editorial
ambition because I only have somuch time.
(19:00):
And I think both those areabsolutely wrong.
My company works on a podcastwith Esther Perel, where she is
giving therapy to romanticcouples, and it's called Where
Should We Begin?
And then there's another new onewe're doing with Esther, How's
Work?, which is looking at workrelationships.
And that whole podcast isdesigned around having a very
(19:23):
limited resource, which isEsther's time.
That she doesn't have time tosit there and spend 15 hours to
prep something and write a hugelong script and whatever.
We get her in little grabs anddribbles throughout her
schedule, and so we had todesign the podcast Not about
money, not about...
The best asset we had was themost limited thing we had, which
(19:45):
was her time.
And so we kind of figured outhow to make the podcast with
that as a factor.
Other podcasts have differentcreative restrictions.
I am a believer that creativerestrictions actually...
Editorial restrictions, timerestrictions, asset resource
restrictions...
inspire creativity becausepeople want to come up with
(20:09):
solutions to problems.
So if you don't have a lot oftime or you don't have a lot of
help or you don't have a lot ofmoney, that doesn't mean you
can't do something reallyexciting.
It just means you have to thinkabout how to work with those
realities, right?
If I have two arms and I loseone arm, I'm not going to say,
okay, well, I'm done living now.
I figured out how to live withone arm.
(20:30):
Right.
So with any scarcity of resourceis something that is almost any
scarcity of resources, somethingyou can kind of counterbalance
with something else.
SPEAKER_00 (20:39):
So I want to get into some, I guess, some more
practical questions that I thinkwill specifically relate to
questions that independentpodcasters would have, because
that's most of the people thatwill be listening to this.
The first one would be thenature of the launch.
and how much of early success isattributed to the connections
(21:00):
and exposure and the networkthat you have and can tap versus
the quality of the contentitself.
Because I know a lot ofindependent podcasters feel
like, well, I'm in control ofmaking a podcast I'm proud of,
but I'm not friends with MarcMaron.
I'm not friends with Joe Rogan.
I'm not a part of the NPRpodcast network and getting
airtime on all those othershows.
(21:21):
So for them, for an independentpodcaster that's trying to pop,
that's trying to really have agreat launch and get some
positive momentum, what are thethings that they could focus on
that might be more in theircontrol?
SPEAKER_01 (21:31):
Well, there's a lot more in control than most people
think.
I think people look at theresources that some podcasters
have, and they think, I don'thave that, so I can't set my
ambitions high.
But again, there's a workaroundfor almost everything.
I say all this with the caveatthat the best marketing plan
starts with a tenacious effortto just make the next episode
(21:53):
better than the last one.
How can I make it better?
How can I be sharper if I'minterviewing someone?
How can I get something out ofthat conversation that person
hasn't said 80 times?
If I'm doing a narrative, howcan I bring more to the story or
tell a better version of thestory?
And just being relentless inpursuing being a little bit
(22:13):
better every time you do it.
Because you can have the bestmarketing resources in the world
and a crappy show.
And it's what you'll see, oreven you see all this all the
time when celebrities jump in,there's a huge splash.
And then where are they twomonths later?
You know, if they're still doingit, it's not as, you know,
they're not as high up in thecharts.
They're not commanding theattention they were.
(22:34):
People aren't as excited aboutit because they've heard the
reality and the reality isn'tall that great many times, not
all the time, obviously.
But so I think that having greatcontent is key number one and
always trying to improve it ispart of that as well.
So if you don't know a MarkMaron or you don't know a Joe
Rogan or don't have an NPR orRadiotopia or whatever, how can
(22:59):
you create something that maynot be one friend but is a bunch
of other friends?
So if you are making a podcastabout beekeeping and you are
trying to make it a podcast forother enthusiasts in beekeeping,
where do those peoplecongregate?
They congregate in Facebookgroups and conventions and
newsletters and websites andforums and whatever.
(23:22):
You can sit there and list offwithout...
spending a lot of time.
Where do these peoplecongregate?
And as I mentioned this in thebook, it's actually all ideas
that I've stolen over the yearsfrom various guerrilla marketers
that you really have to build anetwork of people who are
connected to the subject matter,who have a little bit of
(23:43):
influence, even a tiny bit ofinfluence.
And if you look at...
If you get...
20 people to tweet on yourbehalf who are reaching the
people you care about or whohave those friends, that's more
powerful than one big, hugething.
If you're trying to make apodcast about beekeeping, you
actually don't want Mark Marontweeting about you because most
of his audience aren't going tocare about what you're talking
(24:06):
about.
But if you go to the people whodo care, find out where they
are, build yourself into thatcommunity and say, hey, I'm
doing this for our community.
Would you like to be part of it?
The story in the book I tell,which has proven true time and
time again, which is a podcasterI was working with as a client.
I just like this guy.
I don't even really charge himvery often, but I like this guy.
(24:27):
He's like, I feel kind offlatlined.
I can't get my numbers to grow.
And I said, for six weeks, startoff every episode.
He's doing a weekly podcast.
Start off every episode with, ifyou love this podcast, I need
something from you to help itgrow.
I need you to tell one person.
I need you to tell one, write anemail, a tweet, Facebook post,
(24:47):
reach out to someone and tellone person.
And six weeks went by and I'mtalking to him and I call him up
and he's like, something'swrong.
I don't understand what'shappening.
Like, what is happening?
He's like, my numbers are up35%.
There's no mystery to that.
You asked your audience ofpeople who love you and care for
you.
And in his case, when he wasalready doing like a listener
(25:08):
support thing, they were givinghim money.
He said, look, what I need fromyou now to really keep this
going is just to share it withsomebody.
And they did it.
And it worked.
It didn't cost a dime.
I say frequently, and peopleraise their eyebrows when I say
this, who are at largercompanies, because they spend a
(25:29):
lot advertising podcasts.
I tell them I have never seenanyone spend a dollar
advertising a podcast that paidback.
I just don't think it works.
I do see network effect of, Ilove this.
Listen to it.
You'll love it too.
That works.
You know, bringing people ontoyour podcast and kind of you
being guests, kind of swappingguest spots on each other's
(25:50):
podcast works.
Dropping in promos into onepodcast feed works.
Dropping an episode into apodcast feed works.
Like all this stuff works and itdoesn't cost anything.
And if you can't do that on amassive scale, like a Radiotopia
or a Stitcher, you can do it onyour friends and other
podcasters or find people inlike a ring of influence where
(26:12):
you can all support each other.
One thing I mentioned in thebook is find five other
podcasters and agree that everyweek you're all going to promote
one of you.
And you just circle it around soeveryone gets a turn being in
the spotlight, and you spend theother four or five weeks giving
the spotlight.
And that works.
We figured that out at NPR, andNPR still follows those tactics
(26:36):
today that we developed of thebest marketing we have is just
telling people who probably areinterested that they would like
it.
SPEAKER_00 (26:43):
Well, and I love how everything kind of comes back to
understanding your listenersuper well.
The better you understand thelistener, the better able you
are to make those decisionsabout what to include and not
include in your podcast, whereto find more of them, how to
speak to their pain points andwhy they would want to listen to
a show like that.
So I love that it all kind ofcomes full circle.
(27:06):
Now, one other thing I want tomake sure that we have time for
is you go pretty in-depth in thebook on the art of interviewing.
And I call it the art ofinterviewing because every
single person brings their ownsense of curiosity and their own
angle of the kinds of questionsthey like to ask and the process
that they have.
But I would love just to hear...
(27:26):
You walk through kind of theprocess of preparing for an
interview, what goes into that.
And then even after theinterview is done, when you have
all the tape that you're goingto have and you have to figure
out what's going to make it intothe final episode, what kind of
decisions that you make as aproducer to really create the
best episode possible?
SPEAKER_01 (27:46):
That's an interesting question because of
all the things I wrote about inthe book.
Interviewing is the thing that Ithink I am weakest at and have
struggled the most with.
There's two basic forms ofinterviews.
One is when you're out in thefield working on a narrative
story and you're interviewingpeople who will be part of your
narrative story that you'reproducing.
(28:06):
If you hear any clip in anynarrative podcast, that came out
of an interview most likely.
And I love doing that.
And actually, I think I'mcompetent at it.
I am not someone who shines in asituation like what we're doing,
being the questioner.
I find it really difficult forme to do.
(28:27):
And I've struggled with it tothe point that I don't really do
that much of it anymore.
Because I just think there'sother people I'd rather put in
the position of doing it becausethey're stronger at it.
But in my struggles with it,I've learned a couple
perspective approaches that Ithink really help.
And the first one is to stoppretending to be Terry Gross or
(28:47):
Howard Stern or Trevor Noah orEllen or whomever you admire
who's an interviewer and justtrying to be that person like
you're a play acting.
And I think that's where mostinterviews go sideways is people
forget to just be themselves.
If you don't have a sense ofwonder about your subject,
there's lots that you want toask them.
(29:08):
If you're curious, you shouldn'tbe doing that interview.
They aren't the right booking oryou weren't the right host for
that conversation.
And so that's like number one,80% of problems are solved with
just that perspective shift.
But, you know, so let's say youare really curious.
You want to go in and interviewsomeone.
(29:30):
I make my staff do this when weare doing interviews.
I train people that we work withto think like this of you walk
into that interview with a plan.
You know what you're going totalk about.
You know what order you're goingto talk about things in.
You have written out questions.
You've debated questions withyour colleagues, or if you have
(29:51):
them, or had someone to give youfeedback and give you like, what
are we really trying to find outhere?
What are we trying to know?
What are we trying to learn?
And you come up with a realrigorous plan and then you go
into the interview prepared tothrow it out if you want to.
I often counsel people.
We went out and did a fieldrecording the other day of like,
(30:11):
you know what you need to get inthis interview.
You know what the table stakesare for this to be an interview.
So go in, get that, and thendon't worry about the rest.
You'll remember questions thatwere on your list.
You'll think of new questions.
You'll be listening so thatyou'll follow up on things.
And just make sure that you haveboth the discipline to have a
(30:33):
roadmap of where to go, but thenthe freedom of allowing yourself
to just follow what the momentfeels right.
And trust that that's probably,if you find it an interesting
subject, most other people inyour audience are also going to
find it interesting.
Then you scale this depending onthe amount of resource and time
you have.
(30:54):
Afterwards, what I like to do,my process is I use a program
called Descript, which is afantastic program where you dump
audio files in and it does an AItranscript kind of on the fly.
And you can edit the text and itactually creates a Pro Tools and
audition session for you.
based off the cuts you make.
So we often make the first cutof an interview in Descript just
(31:17):
based off paper without evenlistening to it.
But you go back in once you'vehad that, you've dumped into
Descript and it happens like ina minute.
And I believe for even an entrylevel interview, you get a
certain amount of time that theywill do it for free.
So it's very low cost.
And you look at what you haveand you read it and you, I'd
mark it up like, okay, this isthis section.
This is about when they werelearning to play guitar.
(31:39):
And this is a section abouttheir first band.
And this is a section abouttheir recording contract.
And this is a section when theywrote the song.
Right.
And I kind of write this.
I'm like, which, where do I wantto start this conversation?
And how do I make it flow?
And I make little notes andtreat an interview.
Like it's a story.
Like you're actually creatingsomething that is meant to be
(31:59):
listened to in an order as if itwas you were telling a story.
And even very technicalinterviews still can follow into
that same flow.
And that's when you start toedit.
And whether you have an hour toedit or 20 hours to edit,
there's a version of thatprocess that you can use.
If I only have an hour to editsomething and sometimes when
you're editing on deadline, it'sthe reality of it.
(32:20):
Okay, what are the mostimportant beats here and how do
I get rid of everything else?
And don't worry about timebecause in podcasting there are
no rules.
You can make it whatever lengthyou want to usually.
Make it as good as it needs tobe and not a minute longer.
SPEAKER_00 (32:34):
No, I love that.
I love that advice.
And I was, on first reading,overwhelmed by the amount of
editing that goes into, becauseyour background is NPR, some of
those shows where it's 15 hoursat times of prep for an
interview.
And then that long, if notlonger, on the backside to
(32:55):
actually create the episodes.
And for me, it just gave me areal appreciation for when I
listen to a podcast episodeExactly.
And that's totally fine.
I don't have to be NPR to have agreat podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (33:19):
No, and you could also think of the reality of
what if you have time to...
I always tell people, take theamount of time you have to spend
on an episode and divide it inhalf.
Half of it should be before youdo the interview and half of it
afterwards.
And if you only have two orthree hours, you can devote to
it.
And there are many people that'sthe case.
Hour and a half thinking abouthow you want to do the episode,
(33:41):
hour and a half afterwards toclean it up and get rid of the
stuff that doesn't really feelexciting to you.
And that's enough.
I think any investment of timeis a good investment of time.
I see some of these people.
I just talked to a couple ofthem for my media tour.
They crank out an episode a day.
Their limit is how many hoursthey have in that day to prep
(34:04):
for an interview, do theinterview, cut the interview,
and post the interview in a day.
And they turn out good stuff.
So sometimes just because likean NPR takes 15 hours of prep
and 15 hours of editing doesn'tnecessarily mean they end up
with something that's 15 timesbetter than the guy who has an
hour to prepare and an hour toedit afterwards.
I think it's a false construct.
SPEAKER_00 (34:24):
Final question for you.
What would you say is the pieceof advice you find yourself
giving most often to people thatare just getting started or on
the front end of theirpodcasting kind of trajectory?
SPEAKER_01 (34:35):
I often tell people, forget about format and worry
more about function.
Who are you talking to andwhat's your message?
If you want to make a podcastabout the future and you're
really excited about the future,and think the future is full of
great things, that's a verydifferent podcast than if you
(34:56):
think the future is dire andmaybe the end of our species or
what have you.
Those are two very differentpodcasts.
So even when you have a podcastor interview with people about
the future, what does that mean?
What is your message, yourattitude?
What are you bringing to it,your perspective?
And spend as much time thinking,and the questions about like,
(35:19):
What format should I have?
Should I have a co-host?
Should I have any people?
Should I be interviewing atonce?
All that stuff is like the lastthing you think about.
And just spend time thinkingabout who are you, what do you
have to say, and who you want tosay it to.
And that most people don't takethe time to think that through,
and that's why most peoplestruggle.
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