July 7, 2025 • 12 mins
“First principles are really: know how to be creative and know how to get into your creativity.” - Beth Barany
In this How To Write the Future episode, called “What is Creative Entrepreneurship?,” host Beth Barany gets interviewed about defining creative entrepreneurship and explains the importance of prioritizing creativity over business and why she believes being a creative comes first. Plus she goes in depth on how we can make it work for us as creative individuals.
ABOUT THE HOW TO WRITE THE FUTURE PODCAST
The How To Write The Future podcast is for science fiction and fantasy writers who want to write positive futures and successfully bring those stories out into the marketplace. Hosted by Beth Barany, science fiction novelist and creativity coach for writers. We cover tips for fiction writers and get curious about the future of humanity.
ABOUT BETH BARANY
Beth Barany, an award-winning fantasy and science fiction novelist, teaches novelists how to write, edit, and publish their books as a coach, teacher, consultant, and developmental editor.
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- SHOW PRODUCTION BY Beth Barany
- SHOW CO-PRODUCTION + NOTES by Kerry-Ann McDade
c. 2025 BETH BARANY
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Email: beth@bethbarany.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
BETH BARANY (00:03):
So Beth, tell us what is creative
entrepreneurship?
So yeah, creativeentrepreneurship.
What is it?
So a lot of people definecreative entrepreneurship in
different ways.
I guess what's important here isthe way I define it, so I see
being a creative entrepreneur isabout being a creative first and
an entrepreneur second, which isvery unusual.
A lot of people don't think ofit that way, and I break it down
(00:25):
that way because when we createsomething like the actual zone
of creating, yes, it may havemarketing considerations, but
the zone, what do people callit?
They call it the zone, right?
They call it the flow, being inthe flow.
And I think when you're in theflow, you're not thinking about
the past, you're not thinkingabout the future.
You're just in the flow.
(00:47):
When you think about marketingyour stuff and reaching the
marketplace and reaching yourfans and reaching new readers as
authors, then now you'restarting to think about
marketing considerations and ittakes you outta the flow.
Let's break it down.
I like first principles.
EZRA BARANY (01:00):
So first principles.
Where are the first principles?
BETH BARANY (01:03):
Yeah.
First principles are really: know how to be creative and know (01:03):
undefined
how to get into your creativity.
And then when you're in theentrepreneurship space, now
think about (01:13):
How do you talk about what you're making?
How do you clarify who youraudience is?
How do you reach your audience?
And how do you create a placefor them to purchase your
material or enjoy your material?
And all of those considerationsseem to use a different part of
our brain than the creativepart.
(01:33):
Now, that's not to say you can'tapply your creativity to all
those things.
In fact, that's what I advocatefor.
Like the same energy that we useto come up with story ideas and,
create things, let's apply thatgenerative and like juicy,
bubbly energy, and focus- oftenwhen we're in creative space,
(01:55):
we're super focused.- let'sapply that to entrepreneurship.
I think of being a creativeentrepreneur, as being creative
first and an entrepreneursecond.
So
EZRA BARANY (02:06):
Great.
What is the importance forbecoming a creative
entrepreneur?
BETH BARANY (02:11):
Sure.
it's definitely an electivechoice.
For a lot of writers, and I'mgonna just speak of writers
'cause that's what I know themost.
We write to be read.
I haven't met a single writerwho writes novels and other
short fiction and all thosethings because they just wanna
keep it to themselves.
They want someone to read it,even if it's an intimate group
(02:33):
of fellow writers or theirfamily, or a thousand of their
closest friends.
You agree with me, you're awriter.
Yes.
You've always been driven byhaving other people appreciate
what you've created, right?
What you've written.
EZRA BARANY (02:46):
Yeah.
In fact it's what keeps mewriting is picturing them
reading this moment I'm writingabout.
BETH BARANY (02:52):
Yeah.
But a lot of people are stoppedfrom getting their work into the
marketplace for fear ofcriticism, for fear of- even I
was super afraid when I waspublishing my first book, but I
also was driven just like you bythat desire to be read.
Because I also remembered beinga reader, and I've been an avid
reader since I was a child.
(03:13):
So why is this important?
We tend to think that we have toenter the marketplace a certain
way.
And there's all these rules andthere's all these ways things
have been done.
Just like we write storieswithin a structure of what a
story is and within thatstructure there's so much
freedom.
Even within storytelling.
So why can't we enter themarketplace in a way that works
(03:34):
for us?
So I think by talking more aboutcreative entrepreneurship, we
can talk about how do we make itwork for us?
The principles I'm talking aboutactually doesn't apply just to
being creative people, itapplies to anybody.
'cause I think, if you wanna bein business and you wanna do it
your own way.
now you're applying yourcreativity, you're applying
choice and decisions, I kind ofsee it like an alchemy.
(03:56):
You're basically saying, here'show I want it to be.
Here's my ingredients.
Now how do I cook this up in theway that would fit my taste
buds?
To just use a cooking metaphor,veering a little away from
alchemy.
Does that answer the questionabout why I care about this
issue?
okay, here's the big soapboxthing.
I believe that the ability to becreative is a human right and
(04:20):
something we're all born with.
And bringing our creativity, ourwild imaginations into doing
business is going to serve notonly us as authors, and it maybe
you're a creative writingprofessional.
It's gonna serve everybodybecause there's so many
different ways to do it.
(04:41):
There's not one way.
So let's bring the conversationout.
Let's be creative, let's beplayful.
I believe we need more examplesof that.
There's not one way to sell yourservices or sell your books.
So let's play in that space of: What else could it be? (04:54):
undefined
Just like we play in thestorytelling space of the kinds
of characters and the kinds ofstories that we wanna write.
That's why.
EZRA BARANY (05:04):
So let me ask you this.
What would be the next steps orthe first steps for someone to
take to become a creativeentrepreneur?
BETH BARANY (05:13):
Yes, very good question.
When I work with creativeentrepreneurs, and I do, I work
with people who wanna be- theywanna be a creative writing
professional, like editorialassistant or a virtual assistant
to an author or a book coach.
Or an editor.
The very first thing that youneed to focus on is your
skillset in the chosen field inthe way you wanna help people.
(05:34):
You need to get good at that.
You need to get specializedtraining or get lots of
experience and do everything youcan to get lots of-, have your
training wheels on for a whileand then take off your training
wheels.
And, there are lots of training,different kinds of training
programs for these things.
Specifically I know in editing.
And being a virtual assistant,and then meet people who are
(05:57):
doing what you wanna do or areadjacent to what you wanna do.
Like maybe you only know bookdesigners or cover designers.
Hang out with them, find out howthey do things and just start to
network.
So I first get professionaltraining.
and or lots of experience,network with people in your
adjacent fields.
(06:17):
And then number three is learnsome business skills.
Learn how to talk about what youdo in the marketplace.
Learn how to write a short blurbabout what you do, and have a
professional bio and decide howyou wanna market.
Build a mailing list.
As you get more refined in whatyour offer is, offer freebie.
(06:42):
And then look for ways to do aone to many.
You show up in front of a groupof people, whether you do it
online, or in person And lastly,or also in conjunction- these
are all together.
there are some order of this,but also not, it depends on your
personality.
And in fact, entirely depends onyour personality, but you wanna
(07:05):
learn how to have some kind ofoffer, whether you wanna offer
small group classes or coachingone-on-one or editing one-on-one
or working with a lot of clientsor maybe just a few clients.
That's the business model.
Who do you serve and how willyou earn your money?
And at what price point?
(07:25):
So there's professionaldevelopment that you need to
learn in your skills, but thenthere's also business
development.
I have been doing one form oranother of business development
training ever since I started mybusiness 19 years ago.
So it really never stops in myopinion And neither does the
skillset training in like beinga better writer, being a better
editor, better teacher, bettercoach.
(07:46):
Those are the things I mostlyfocus on.
EZRA BARANY (07:49):
Let me ask you this.
What can you say to creatives,who, when they hear that they
need to market and focus on thebusiness aspect of their
creativity, and they just wantto shut down, what advice would
you give those folks?
BETH BARANY (08:06):
That's a big one.
I would be very, very delicate,or I would say sensitive, to
that when people just wanna shutdown.
It often has nothing to do withtheir lived experience, although
it might have something to dowith their upbringing, but it
also might have something to dowith their ancestry because it
has been very difficult, if notimpossible, to be an
(08:28):
entrepreneur before the 20thcentury.
Before the 20th century, you hadto have some kind of moxie.
The economies weren't there,there was no social systems.
There was no network theresupported it unless you were in
a guild.
And if you're in a guild, thenyou're an apprentice and you
become a master.
And the pathway is very director you do what your parents did
(08:48):
historically and genetically,humans have not been
entrepreneurs in the way we cannow.
So it's very scary.
So there's a lot of fear aroundthat, around being an
entrepreneur that we inheritfrom our families.
And, marketing is often got abad rap because there's a lot of
negative stereotypes around it.
We haven't seen any goodexamples and we have all
(09:11):
experienced- we've all had badexperiences of being marketed to
or sold to, or people trying tobe in our face.
But the really interesting thingis we all love buying things.
How is that?
How is that we love buyingthings?
So in those cases and all thosecases where we had a good
experience buying something thatwas because of marketing.
(09:33):
Nine times outta 10, that wasbecause of marketing.
Yes.
Maybe we went out of our way.
Oh, I need this thing.
I'm gonna go buy this thing.
But then we look at thepackaging and we look at the
ingredients and we look at thereviews, right?
All of that is marketing.
So I think it's a lack ofeducation, but it's also an
instinctive thing that weinherit.
So it does require us to say (09:52):
I am very scared about marketing
and sales, but I wanna learn howto do it.
So it's just shifting themindset from: Yes, I recognize I
have all this fear, and maybeyou don't even know where your
fear comes from.
Maybe you don't even know whyyou shut down, but if there's
another part of you that iscurious...
I'm like, I'm curious.
(10:12):
I'm curious why I react thisway.
I really wish I didn't.
I really wish I had comforthere.
I had ease here.
I really wish I could have thesame feeling of creative flow I
have in creating my stories inmarketing and sales.
And my challenge is yes, we can,we don't necessarily know the
pathway, and that's thechallenge of being a creative
(10:32):
who wants to be selling theircreative stuff or selling their
services that relate to beingcreative is finding a way that's
in alignment with us and itmaybe it's small.
Maybe we start really small andwe start to get comfortable with
all the bits and pieces andparts and ways of doing things.
So yeah, start small.
(10:52):
Be gentle with yourself and becurious.
EZRA BARANY (10:55):
I love that.
And so it sounds like you'resaying that, and would you agree
with this?
That there are multiple ways ofmarketing and some of which
creatives might actually enjoy.
BETH BARANY (11:08):
Absolutely.
When I've taught writersmarketing tools often related to
social media, people wouldcringe around the social media.
And then I would say (11:18):
What do you like to do?
And this one author said to me,I love going to bookstores and
doing book talks.
and going to schools and doingmy talks there.
I'm like, that's great.
Forget the social media.
Go and do those things.
And as soon as I said that, herwhole demeanor changed.
She got super excited.
She's like, Ooh, I know what todo and who to call and who to
(11:38):
talk to and how to prepare.
She knew it was all natural.
So do what's natural to you.
Do what you love.
Like you, Ezra, you love makingvideos, the idea of making
images you love.
and I just see you light up withthat and it's so wonderful.
And then, here's the othersecret.
You don't have to do everything.
You can delegate.
(11:58):
You can ask for help.
You could do a trade, you couldget a group of buddies and do
things together.
It's really important that wecome from our strengths and stay
in there, stay in our strengths.
And actually, I heard someonetoday say it's not just your
strengths.
No.
Be in your zone of genius.
And I believe there is geniuseven in how we can market.
(12:19):
We may think we have no geniusthere, but actually we do.
It's just a matter of skills.
EZRA BARANY (12:25):
Thank you.
Thank you for sharing with usyour wisdom.
BETH BARANY (12:29):
Thank you.
And that's a wrap.
So Beth, tell us what is creative
entrepreneurship?
So yeah, creativeentrepreneurship.
What is it?
So a lot of people definecreative entrepreneurship in
different ways.
I guess what's important here isthe way I define it, so I see
being a creative entrepreneur isabout being a creative first and
an entrepreneur second, which isvery unusual.
A lot of people don't think ofit that way, and I break it down
(00:25):
that way because when we createsomething like the actual zone
of creating, yes, it may havemarketing considerations, but
the zone, what do people callit?
They call it the zone, right?
They call it the flow, being inthe flow.
And I think when you're in theflow, you're not thinking about
the past, you're not thinkingabout the future.
You're just in the flow.
(00:47):
When you think about marketingyour stuff and reaching the
marketplace and reaching yourfans and reaching new readers as
authors, then now you'restarting to think about
marketing considerations and ittakes you outta the flow.
Let's break it down.
I like first principles.
EZRA BARANY (01:00):
So first principles.
Where are the first principles?
BETH BARANY (01:03):
Yeah.
First principles are really: know how to be creative and know (01:03):
undefined
how to get into your creativity.
And then when you're in theentrepreneurship space, now
think about (01:13):
How do you talk about what you're making?
How do you clarify who youraudience is?
How do you reach your audience?
And how do you create a placefor them to purchase your
material or enjoy your material?
And all of those considerationsseem to use a different part of
our brain than the creativepart.
(01:33):
Now, that's not to say you can'tapply your creativity to all
those things.
In fact, that's what I advocatefor.
Like the same energy that we useto come up with story ideas and,
create things, let's apply thatgenerative and like juicy,
bubbly energy, and focus- oftenwhen we're in creative space,
(01:55):
we're super focused.- let'sapply that to entrepreneurship.
I think of being a creativeentrepreneur, as being creative
first and an entrepreneursecond.
So
EZRA BARANY (02:06):
Great.
What is the importance forbecoming a creative
entrepreneur?
BETH BARANY (02:11):
Sure.
it's definitely an electivechoice.
For a lot of writers, and I'mgonna just speak of writers
'cause that's what I know themost.
We write to be read.
I haven't met a single writerwho writes novels and other
short fiction and all thosethings because they just wanna
keep it to themselves.
They want someone to read it,even if it's an intimate group
(02:33):
of fellow writers or theirfamily, or a thousand of their
closest friends.
You agree with me, you're awriter.
Yes.
You've always been driven byhaving other people appreciate
what you've created, right?
What you've written.
EZRA BARANY (02:46):
Yeah.
In fact it's what keeps mewriting is picturing them
reading this moment I'm writingabout.
BETH BARANY (02:52):
Yeah.
But a lot of people are stoppedfrom getting their work into the
marketplace for fear ofcriticism, for fear of- even I
was super afraid when I waspublishing my first book, but I
also was driven just like you bythat desire to be read.
Because I also remembered beinga reader, and I've been an avid
reader since I was a child.
(03:13):
So why is this important?
We tend to think that we have toenter the marketplace a certain
way.
And there's all these rules andthere's all these ways things
have been done.
Just like we write storieswithin a structure of what a
story is and within thatstructure there's so much
freedom.
Even within storytelling.
So why can't we enter themarketplace in a way that works
(03:34):
for us?
So I think by talking more aboutcreative entrepreneurship, we
can talk about how do we make itwork for us?
The principles I'm talking aboutactually doesn't apply just to
being creative people, itapplies to anybody.
'cause I think, if you wanna bein business and you wanna do it
your own way.
now you're applying yourcreativity, you're applying
choice and decisions, I kind ofsee it like an alchemy.
(03:56):
You're basically saying, here'show I want it to be.
Here's my ingredients.
Now how do I cook this up in theway that would fit my taste
buds?
To just use a cooking metaphor,veering a little away from
alchemy.
Does that answer the questionabout why I care about this
issue?
okay, here's the big soapboxthing.
I believe that the ability to becreative is a human right and
(04:20):
something we're all born with.
And bringing our creativity, ourwild imaginations into doing
business is going to serve notonly us as authors, and it maybe
you're a creative writingprofessional.
It's gonna serve everybodybecause there's so many
different ways to do it.
(04:41):
There's not one way.
So let's bring the conversationout.
Let's be creative, let's beplayful.
I believe we need more examplesof that.
There's not one way to sell yourservices or sell your books.
So let's play in that space of: What else could it be? (04:54):
undefined
Just like we play in thestorytelling space of the kinds
of characters and the kinds ofstories that we wanna write.
That's why.
EZRA BARANY (05:04):
So let me ask you this.
What would be the next steps orthe first steps for someone to
take to become a creativeentrepreneur?
BETH BARANY (05:13):
Yes, very good question.
When I work with creativeentrepreneurs, and I do, I work
with people who wanna be- theywanna be a creative writing
professional, like editorialassistant or a virtual assistant
to an author or a book coach.
Or an editor.
The very first thing that youneed to focus on is your
skillset in the chosen field inthe way you wanna help people.
(05:34):
You need to get good at that.
You need to get specializedtraining or get lots of
experience and do everything youcan to get lots of-, have your
training wheels on for a whileand then take off your training
wheels.
And, there are lots of training,different kinds of training
programs for these things.
Specifically I know in editing.
And being a virtual assistant,and then meet people who are
(05:57):
doing what you wanna do or areadjacent to what you wanna do.
Like maybe you only know bookdesigners or cover designers.
Hang out with them, find out howthey do things and just start to
network.
So I first get professionaltraining.
and or lots of experience,network with people in your
adjacent fields.
(06:17):
And then number three is learnsome business skills.
Learn how to talk about what youdo in the marketplace.
Learn how to write a short blurbabout what you do, and have a
professional bio and decide howyou wanna market.
Build a mailing list.
As you get more refined in whatyour offer is, offer freebie.
(06:42):
And then look for ways to do aone to many.
You show up in front of a groupof people, whether you do it
online, or in person And lastly,or also in conjunction- these
are all together.
there are some order of this,but also not, it depends on your
personality.
And in fact, entirely depends onyour personality, but you wanna
(07:05):
learn how to have some kind ofoffer, whether you wanna offer
small group classes or coachingone-on-one or editing one-on-one
or working with a lot of clientsor maybe just a few clients.
That's the business model.
Who do you serve and how willyou earn your money?
And at what price point?
(07:25):
So there's professionaldevelopment that you need to
learn in your skills, but thenthere's also business
development.
I have been doing one form oranother of business development
training ever since I started mybusiness 19 years ago.
So it really never stops in myopinion And neither does the
skillset training in like beinga better writer, being a better
editor, better teacher, bettercoach.
(07:46):
Those are the things I mostlyfocus on.
EZRA BARANY (07:49):
Let me ask you this.
What can you say to creatives,who, when they hear that they
need to market and focus on thebusiness aspect of their
creativity, and they just wantto shut down, what advice would
you give those folks?
BETH BARANY (08:06):
That's a big one.
I would be very, very delicate,or I would say sensitive, to
that when people just wanna shutdown.
It often has nothing to do withtheir lived experience, although
it might have something to dowith their upbringing, but it
also might have something to dowith their ancestry because it
has been very difficult, if notimpossible, to be an
(08:28):
entrepreneur before the 20thcentury.
Before the 20th century, you hadto have some kind of moxie.
The economies weren't there,there was no social systems.
There was no network theresupported it unless you were in
a guild.
And if you're in a guild, thenyou're an apprentice and you
become a master.
And the pathway is very director you do what your parents did
(08:48):
historically and genetically,humans have not been
entrepreneurs in the way we cannow.
So it's very scary.
So there's a lot of fear aroundthat, around being an
entrepreneur that we inheritfrom our families.
And, marketing is often got abad rap because there's a lot of
negative stereotypes around it.
We haven't seen any goodexamples and we have all
(09:11):
experienced- we've all had badexperiences of being marketed to
or sold to, or people trying tobe in our face.
But the really interesting thingis we all love buying things.
How is that?
How is that we love buyingthings?
So in those cases and all thosecases where we had a good
experience buying something thatwas because of marketing.
(09:33):
Nine times outta 10, that wasbecause of marketing.
Yes.
Maybe we went out of our way.
Oh, I need this thing.
I'm gonna go buy this thing.
But then we look at thepackaging and we look at the
ingredients and we look at thereviews, right?
All of that is marketing.
So I think it's a lack ofeducation, but it's also an
instinctive thing that weinherit.
So it does require us to say (09:52):
I am very scared about marketing
and sales, but I wanna learn howto do it.
So it's just shifting themindset from: Yes, I recognize I
have all this fear, and maybeyou don't even know where your
fear comes from.
Maybe you don't even know whyyou shut down, but if there's
another part of you that iscurious...
I'm like, I'm curious.
(10:12):
I'm curious why I react thisway.
I really wish I didn't.
I really wish I had comforthere.
I had ease here.
I really wish I could have thesame feeling of creative flow I
have in creating my stories inmarketing and sales.
And my challenge is yes, we can,we don't necessarily know the
pathway, and that's thechallenge of being a creative
(10:32):
who wants to be selling theircreative stuff or selling their
services that relate to beingcreative is finding a way that's
in alignment with us and itmaybe it's small.
Maybe we start really small andwe start to get comfortable with
all the bits and pieces andparts and ways of doing things.
So yeah, start small.
(10:52):
Be gentle with yourself and becurious.
EZRA BARANY (10:55):
I love that.
And so it sounds like you'resaying that, and would you agree
with this?
That there are multiple ways ofmarketing and some of which
creatives might actually enjoy.
BETH BARANY (11:08):
Absolutely.
When I've taught writersmarketing tools often related to
social media, people wouldcringe around the social media.
And then I would say (11:18):
What do you like to do?
And this one author said to me,I love going to bookstores and
doing book talks.
and going to schools and doingmy talks there.
I'm like, that's great.
Forget the social media.
Go and do those things.
And as soon as I said that, herwhole demeanor changed.
She got super excited.
She's like, Ooh, I know what todo and who to call and who to
(11:38):
talk to and how to prepare.
She knew it was all natural.
So do what's natural to you.
Do what you love.
Like you, Ezra, you love makingvideos, the idea of making
images you love.
and I just see you light up withthat and it's so wonderful.
And then, here's the othersecret.
You don't have to do everything.
You can delegate.
(11:58):
You can ask for help.
You could do a trade, you couldget a group of buddies and do
things together.
It's really important that wecome from our strengths and stay
in there, stay in our strengths.
And actually, I heard someonetoday say it's not just your
strengths.
No.
Be in your zone of genius.
And I believe there is geniuseven in how we can market.
(12:19):
We may think we have no geniusthere, but actually we do.
It's just a matter of skills.
EZRA BARANY (12:25):
Thank you.
Thank you for sharing with usyour wisdom.
BETH BARANY (12:29):
Thank you.
And that's a wrap.
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