“ Four essential elements of what does it take to build this epic rivalry between your hero and the villain.” - Said by Beth Barany, quoting Bonnie Johnston
Would you like to know how to build epic rivalries between heroes and villains? In this How To Write the Future podcast episode, host Beth Barany reads an article written by writing mentor and award-winning author Bonnie Johnston, in which she shares an in-depth breakdown of the four essential elements of epic rivalries, with step-by-step worksheets, available by signing up to Bonnie’s “Arch Enemies” class.
ABOUT BONNIE JOHNSTON
Bonnie Johnston is a writing mentor and award-winning author with a passion for teaching fiction writers how to increase the emotional impact of their stories to turn readers into fans.
She blogs at Write Smarter, Not Harder, where you can download her free ebook, Editing for Story.
She’s also the author of The 30 Day Novel Workbook and The Writer’s Guide to Getting Organized.
ABOUT BETH BARANY
Beth Barany, an award-winning fantasy and science fiction novelist, teaches novelists how to write, edit, and publish their books as a coach, teacher, consultant, and developmental editor.
RESOURCES
Support our work for creatives! Buy me a coffee: https://ko-fi.com/bethbarany
Read the article: How to Build an Epic Rivalry Between Your Hero and Your Villain by Bonnie Johnston
- Epic rivalries make for memorable stories -- the kinds of stories that are worth re-reading so we can immerse ourselves in the emotional intensity of the hero’s multi-layered relationship with the villain.
- Get the course “Arch-Enemies” here: **https://bethbarany.com/archenemies [Affiliate link]
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- SHOW PRODUCTION BY Beth Barany
- SHOW CO-PRODUCTION + NOTES by Kerry-Ann McDade
c. 2025 BETH BARANY
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Episode Transcript
Hey everyone.
Beth Barany here with How toWrite the Future Podcast, Tips
for Writers, And today I have aspecial share for you Today, I
am going to share with you afriend and colleague's,
wonderful course and materialabout how to build epic
(00:20):
rivalries between your hero andyour villain.
Essentially, we are going tolook at four main points- four
essential elements of what doesit take to build this epic
rivalry between your hero andthe villain.
We're gonna look at chemistry,the dark push pull dynamic that
(00:43):
gets under both character skin.
We're gonna look at thepsychological opposition, how
the characters shouldfundamentally frustrate each
other through opposing traits.
And we're gonna look at thepoint of connection.
That's number three, showing howthey could have been allies in
different circumstances.
(01:03):
And lastly, number four, we'regonna look at the resonant
relationship dynamics, how theirrelationship dynamic is somehow
familiar to real liferelationship patterns.
The benefit to you as the writerand actually the ultimate
benefit to your reader is whenyou combine these four layers,
(01:24):
the conflicts between the heroand the villain become more
emotional, meaningful, and, canbe incredible reveals of
character.
By the time we're done with thispodcast today, I hope you will
have some real takeaways thatyou can design really dynamic
(01:45):
and compelling rivalries betweenyour hero and your villain.
All right, so today I'm gonnaread this article that Bonnie
wrote for us about her class.
And, so to start off, I'm justgonna tell you a little bit
about the teacher and the authorof this material, Bonnie
Johnston.
Bonnie Johnston is a writingmentor and award-winning author
(02:08):
with a passion for teachingfiction writers how to increase
the emotional impact of theirstories to turn readers into
fans.
She blogs at Write Smarter NotHarder, where you can download
her free book,"Editing forStory".
And she's also the author of the30 Day Novel Workbook, The 30
(02:29):
Day Romance Novel Workbook, andThe Writer's Guide to Getting
Organized.
Alright, here we go.
Deepen characterization,intensify conflicts, and write
stories readers crave.
JK Rowing did it.
Victor Hugo did it, Sir ArthurConan Doyle did it.
It's one of the reasons that allthree of these authors were
(02:52):
massively successful.
Rowling, Hugo, and Doyle createdepic rivalries between their
heroes and their villains.
Deep multi-layered relationshipsthat locked good guys and bad
guys together in high stakesconflicts that couldn't be
easily resolved.
Not only do these rivalriesgenerate compelling conflicts,
(03:15):
powerful enough to drive bigstories and big series, they
also take the reader on a deepdive into the psychology of both
hero and villain.
Epic rivalry.
We get to know Harry Potterbetter through Harry's struggle
to understand how Voldemortbecame an evil wizard.
(03:36):
We love Sherlock Holmes morewhen we see him resist the
temptation to join Moriarty inusing his genius for personal
gain.
And our hearts ache both forValjean and Javert when we
realize they've been set at eachother's throats by the tragic
social inequities that shapedtheir lives.
(03:57):
Epic rivalries make formemorable stories, the kinds of
stories that are worth rereadingso we can immerse ourselves in
the emotional intensity of thehero's multilayered relationship
with the villain.
In other words, what liesbetween them is complicated and
we love it.
Your story's epic rivalry.
(04:18):
How do you create this kind ofrelationship between your hero
and your villain?
You already know that you needto give them mutually exclusive
goals to make sure that theyhave a compelling reason to
oppose each other.
You might assume that you needto tie your hero and your
villain together closely throughtheir backstory.
(04:38):
But while that can be a greatfoundation for the hero villain
relationship, Voldemort's attackon the infant Harry and his
parents is at the heart ofHarry's saga, a childhood
connection is not essential.
Batman didn't know the Jokerbefore he started committing
crimes, and Holmes didn't knowMoriarty before he became a
(04:58):
criminal mastermind either.
Essential elements in creatingan epic rivalry.
What are the essential elementsin creating an epic rivalry?
First, you need to createchemistry between your hero and
villain.
Their relationship needs to havethe same kind of push and pull
that the hero and heroine of aromance have albeit in a much
(05:20):
darker way.
When your villain calls yourhero to taunt him, your hero
isn't just staying on the linebecause he is hoping for a clue
to what the villain has done.
He is also continuing theconversation because the villain
has gotten under his skin.
The conflict they're engaged inis intense because they're both
viewing it through their deeplypersonal connection.
(05:42):
Second, you need to add a layerof psychological opposition to
their relationship.
Something in the psychology ofeach that is fundamentally
frustrating to the other.
The most common way to do thatis to make them opposites in
some way, emotionally,ideologically, or in terms of
their abilities and skills.
(06:03):
But it's not the only way.
Third, you need to give them apoint of connection.
Some way in which theyunderstand each other deeply and
perhaps even agree with eachother.
Some of the greatest epicrivalries are ones where you can
see how in differentcircumstances the hero and the
villain could have been friendsor lovers or teammates.
If you're creating a rivalrywhere you want the reader to
(06:24):
root for the villain to beredeemed by the hero, that point
of connection becomes incrediblyimportant.
That point of connection servesas a tool that the hero can use
to bring the villain over to theside of good.
Fourth, you can add yet anotherlayer to the hero villain
relationship with what I callresonant relationship dynamics.
(06:47):
Dynamics we see all the time inour real life relationships that
are separate from thepersonality dynamic.
For example, your villain mighttreat your hero like an annoying
little brother, triggering yourhero's childish or bratty
tendencies, even if your heronever had an older sibling
during their own childhood.
Or maybe your hero sees himselfin the villain, recognizing he's
(07:12):
one misstep away from becomingjust like the villain.
O r maybe your villain acts asyour hero's conscience giving
your hero exactly the advice heneeds to hear, clearly
identifying your hero's flawsand mistakes with brutal
honesty.
This one's my favorite.
Four layers of epic rivalry.
(07:34):
When your hero's relationshipwith your villain contains these
four layers (07:37):
chemistry, psychological opposition, a
point of connection, and adynamic that resonates for
readers-- every conflict in yourstory becomes meaningful, more
emotionally charged, and morelikely to trigger character
revelations.
If you are interested inlearning more about mastering
(07:58):
the art of creating a memorableepic rivalry for your
characters, please do check outher course"Arch enemies", and
that link will be connected tothis podcast, whether it's, in
the show notes, below the videoor in the article that we post
on our blog.
In this way in her course"ArchEnemies", you will not only get
(08:20):
an in-depth breakdown of thesefour layers with step by step
worksheets, you'll also discoverthe number one must-have trait
of villains that readers love tohate.
Also, the six characteristics oftruly terrifying villains; the
three types of stakes you mustestablish for your hero and
(08:43):
stakes are very important; 10tricks for creating powerful
chemistry between your hero andvillain; and 12 resonant
relationship dynamics that youcan use to intensify your hero's
internal conflict.
So be sure to check, out thisclass by Bonnie Johnston and
dive deeper and master the epicrivalry of your characters at
(09:09):
the link that will be in theshow notes.
And I'll also put the link onthe screen here.
And yes, this is an affiliatelink.
I hope you like this episode onthe four layers of building your
epic rivalry by Bonnie Johnston.
If you have any questions aboutit, let me know.
You can also connect with Bonniedirectly via her website, Write
(09:30):
Smarter Not Harder.
Uh, That's it for this week,everyone.
Write long and prosper.
That's a wrap.
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