October 27, 2025 • 25 mins
“So the habits of mind are: curiosity, openness, engagement, creativity, persistence, responsibility, flexibility, and metacognition. So that's a whole lot of terms. Metacognition is typically the one where people go, huh, I don't know what you're talking about. So that's the one that I wanna talk about. It is also one of the ones that I think is foundational to all the rest.” - Bailey Lang
In this How To Write the Future podcast episode, “Bailey Lang's Habits of Mind for Writers,” host Beth Barany talks to book coach, editor, and ghostwriter Bailey Lang, where they discuss the uses of AI in a creative world, and Bailey shares what the Habits of Mind are and why they are important to writers and how they can help them build sustainable practices.
ABOUT BAILEY LANG
Dr. Bailey Lang is a book coach, editor, and ghostwriter. At the Writing Desk, Bailey offers one-on-one coaching and manuscript reviews to support authors in building sustainable, enjoyable writing practices that take their books from draft to done. Bailey pairs a deep knowledge of the writing process with intuitive and highly customized practices that help writers develop confidence, grow in their craft, and produce writing they’re proud of—without burning out.
Bailey's free newsletter, Word to the Wise, features writing advice you'll actually use—plus regular interviews with published authors. https://usethewritingdesk.kit.com/
Website: https://usethewritingdesk.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bailey-lang/
ABOUT BETH BARANY
Beth Barany, an award-winning fantasy and science fiction novelist, teaches novelists how to write, edit, and publish their books as a coach, teacher, consultant, and developmental editor.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
BETH BARANY (00:00):
Hey everyone, welcome to or welcome back, to
How to Write the Future Podcast.
I'm your host Beth Barany, and Iam a science fiction and fantasy
writer, helping writers go fromlight bulb" to draft.
I also work with creativeentrepreneurs to take their
business into action and put itinto the world and help their
(00:22):
audience.
And I love running this podcastbecause at How to Write the
Future podcast, I not only getto talk to science fiction and
fantasy writers, but I also getto talk to thinkers and people
who are helping us expand intomaybe a new version of who we
want to be.
So I believe in the power of theimagination, and I believe in
the power of creativity.
(00:43):
So especially storytellers andwriters and all artists, we are
such an important job in ourculture, and I believe, and
here's my motto, that when wevision what is possible for us
as humans on this planet, wehelp make it so.
That is my optimism showing andI just wanna welcome to our
(01:06):
stage, Bailey.
Hi Bailey.
BAILEY LANG (01:08):
Hello.
Thank you for having me.
I'm so excited to talk to youtoday.
BETH BARANY (01:12):
me too.
I am so excited.
So if you could introduceyourself to everyone, that would
be awesome.
BAILEY LANG (01:19):
Yeah.
So hi everybody.
Uh, I'm Bailey Lang.
I am a book coach, editor, andwriter.
Um, my company's called TheWriting Desk and I work with
authors, creatives, academics,entrepreneurs, a little bit of
everybody, to build sustainable,enjoyable writing practices that
take their books from draft todone.
BETH BARANY (01:40):
I just love that, from draft to done.
Good job.
great little pithy statementthere.
You're writing for our blog,Writer's Fun Zone, and I'm
really intrigued by your topic,"habits of mind," and I find
that just so attractive.
If you could tell us a littlebit about: What are the habits
of mind and why are theyimportant to writers?
BAILEY LANG (02:04):
yes.
Such a good question.
So often when we think about ourwriting habits, right, we're
thinking about the actualphysical act of sitting down to
write, right?
Like the external sorts ofhabits that maybe it's happening
once a day, maybe it's happeningonce a week, but it's something
you're sitting down and, anddoing physically in some way.
And the habits of mind are ourthinking patterns, right?
(02:27):
It's the things that arehappening in our heads kind of
all of the time.
Um, and those sort of underpinall of our other habits.
And so my dissertation researchway back when was about about
these habits of mind, right?
So there is this research thatcame out in.
Oh gosh, 2011, on Habits of Mindthat help writers be successful.
(02:51):
And they were specificallylooking at post-secondary
writers.
So college students,transitioning out of high school
into college.
What are the mental habits thathelp people succeed in writing
in this new environment?
And the sort of researchquestion that I was pursuing is
like, are these habits of mind?
Things that we see show up insuccessful writers in other
(03:12):
places.
Are these habits of minegenerally true of successful
writers?
And so I am a big old archivalresearch dork.
so my research project waslooking at: can we find evidence
for these habits of mind in thehistorical record, uh, in the
writing of, of people from thepast?
and so what I found was, yeah,we do see it.
(03:35):
And so part of the work that Ido now is really helping writers
get a handle on what thesehabits of mind look like for
them in their practicescurrently.
Are these things that they areactively engaging in?
Are these things that they couldbe cultivating more?
and just seeing how, like whenyou practice some of this stuff,
when you really train your brainto think in these specific ways,
(03:57):
the payoff for your writingpractice can be pretty
impressive.
Um, it's really cool to see.
BETH BARANY (04:03):
And when you say payoff, like what tangible
results are you talking about?
BAILEY LANG (04:07):
Yeah.
People who work on the habits ofmind typically find that they
have an easier time sitting downto write.
They have more ideas, they feelmore confident in their writing.
all of those things that kind ofcontribute to feeling blocked.
Right?
And struggling to sit down atthe page and write.
Some of that starts toalleviate, when you focus on
these habits of mind, becauseoften the stuff that keeps us
(04:29):
from writing is, is mentalbefore it's anything else,
right?
We're like, we get in our ownway.
that the internal critic, all ofthat kind of stuff can come up.
And so working on your habits ofmind can really inform the
entire rest of your writingpractice.
BETH BARANY (04:44):
Yeah, so, so important.
So what can writers do?
How can they cultivate stronghabits of mind?
Maybe you could just tell us oneof these habits that you think,
or that you've seen having thebiggest impact with your
clients.
BAILEY LANG (04:58):
Oh my gosh.
It's so hard to pick.
there are eight habits of mindthat are studied, and so I'll
just give you a brief kind oflist of what those are, and then
I'll talk about one inparticular.
So the habits of mind are: curiosity, openness, engagement, (05:07):
undefined
creativity, persistence,responsibility, flexibility, and
metacognition.
So that's a whole lot of terms.
Metacognition is typically theone where people go, huh, I
don't know what you're talkingabout.
So that's the one that I wannatalk about.
it is also one of the ones thatI think is foundational to all
(05:29):
the rest.
So metacognition is the abilityto think about your own
thinking.
Which sounds very Inception.
but if you are someone whojournals who has a mindfulness
meditation practice, who hasdone breath work, who has any
sort of intuitive practicethat's metacognition, you're
already doing it.
(05:50):
and so if you're thinking thatsounds too esoteric and
complicated and difficult, it'sreally not right.
It really is just a matter ofbeing able to notice what is
going on mentally.
Then you get into a positionwhere you can make decisions
about whether you want tocontinue down that path or do
something that is going tointervene.
so if you are like me, someonewho has anxiety and you catch
(06:14):
yourself like, oh, I am in aspiral right now.
I need to go sit outside for afew minutes and do some breath
work and like ground myself.
it's metacognition that kind ofintervenes in that spiral and
goes, Hey, here's the pattern.
We've seen this before.
Like, what do we need to dohere?
So when it comes to writing,metacognition can really help
you.
If every time you sit down onthe page you're like.
(06:36):
this is gonna be really hard andI'm not gonna produce anything
good and I'm, am I just wastingmy time, et cetera.
You can start to notice thosethought patterns and then
actively replace them withthings that feel more helpful.
Um, so that's like metacognitionis a really powerful tool to
practice with.
BETH BARANY (06:54):
I love that.
And, and metacognition, I woulddefinitely say is a big part of,
the NLP training.
I received a huge part.
It's all about like noticing.
What do you notice?
That's a big question.
We might ask others, but I askmyself too, what do I notice?
And so one of my journal promptsfor myself is: what's going on
here, Beth?
BAILEY LANG (07:15):
I love that.
BETH BARANY (07:16):
Because I notice when I get in a spiral and I've
had low level anxiety, I reallynoticed it when I started my
business 20 years ago.
I would have, I would just bekind of anxious and I didn't
know.
And, and finally I realized, oh,I am like operating on low level
anxiety, like all the time.
So what, starting to ask myself,what's going on here?
(07:37):
And especially when I'm stuck inthe hard parts of writing, like
editing like I am now and havebeen for a while, I'm constantly
asking myself, what's going onhere?
Because the meta of editing to,from my perspective.
Is the reason we're having a,I'm having a hard time is that
I'm asking myself to deal withsome difficult things in the
(07:58):
story itself.
The story's asking me to dealwith some difficult emotions,
and it's totally okay that Imight be having a challenging
time at that because there's areason why I left this part of
the editing to the end, and hereI am bumping up against it and,
and feeling overwhelmed by it.
I'm like, oh, okay.
So when I ask myself in myjournal sessions before I write.
(08:20):
And edit.
It's, Hey, what's going on here?
Then I start to recognize thepattern, the, yeah.
Habit of mind.
Yeah.
BAILEY LANG (08:28):
Oh, I love that.
Yeah.
That's such a beautifulquestion, and it, it really
just, it does put you into kindof that observer mode and not
being this stuck in theexperience mode, and that's,
that's the power of thatquestion.
That's great.
BETH BARANY (08:40):
So powerful.
So what else should writers knowabout building a sustainable,
enjoyable writing practice?
BAILEY LANG (08:47):
I have a issue of my newsletter about this coming
out in a couple weeks.
I was just writing about thistopic like all morning.
One of the big things that I'malways trying to tell people is
you have to figure out whatworks for you and what works for
somebody else may not be whatworks for you.
So if you ever are gettingadvice from someone and they're
like, well, this worked for me,It should work for you too.
(09:09):
Just remember, that's notnecessarily true, right?
They don't have your life, theydon't have your experiences,
they don't have yourconstraints.
They may have the absolute bestof intentions and they may just
be really excited that like,Hey, this worked for them,
right?
It's, I'm not saying that peoplesaying that have any bad
intentions, but you have to bereally discerning about writing
(09:30):
advice and be willing toexperiment with stuff.
Right.
Um, you may have a sensesometimes that like, ooh, I
don't know, that doesn't soundlike it's gonna be fun or
enjoyable.
Or effective.
And then sometimes you trysomething and you're like, wow,
that really, that really worked.
so being willing to experiment Ithink is really good, but also
cultivate that awareness oflike, something that somebody
(09:51):
says is the best piece ofwriting advice in the world may
not be the best piece of writingadvice for you.
And the only writing practicethat is truly sustainable is the
one that you are going to tomaintain, right, and stick with
or adapt as circumstanceschange.
But it has to work for you.
It can't be the other wayaround.
BETH BARANY (10:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and what I noticed ispeople can get frozen at the
threshold.
And I don't know about you.
I'd be curious to hear what youthink, but my solution to that
is timed writing and thesmallest amount of timed writing
that feels feasible.
So not an impossible, like Igonna write for an hour, but my
favorite is 20 minutes.
(10:30):
Some people love 15.
I even say stand in yourkitchen, heat your coffee up.
And write for two minutes.
And just to have the experienceof what is it actually like to
physically be writing constantlyfor a very, very small, almost
dumb amount of time.
Like I could do a minute, Icould do two minutes, well do
it.
Go and see what that's like.
(10:50):
Write small.
Challenge yourself self to writefive 50 words or a hundred
words.
So it doesn't have to be a timebound.
It could be word bound, whateverworks.
But really, if you have the urgeto write, but you're not
writing, that's actually wherethe pain sits.
That's why you're in pain.
You're not in pain because ofsomething else.
You're actually in pain'causeyou're not doing what you love.
(11:11):
Yes.
and what's the easiest ask Youcan ask your system like, oh
sure, but I could do a minute.
So I don't know what yourthought is on that.
if your habits of mind includethat like threshold I wanna be
writing, but I'm not writing.
BAILEY LANG (11:26):
I think there's a few that kind of touch on that.
So you have like the, theflexibility element, right?
Is that willingness to, say, I'mgonna try something right?
I am.
While my tea steeps, I'm justgonna pull a notebook out and
write.
You know, that's three, fourminutes.
so being willing to, to tryother stuff and just see like
what clicks, what doesn't.
(11:46):
Yeah.
Flexibility is huge in that,that openness, I think is big
too.
Just again, that willingness totry, not to close off
possibilities before you givethem a shot.
but also then the responsibilityelement of like, I'm going to,
to try this and then reflect onit, And taking that element of:
did this really work for me?
I'm going to evaluate it.
(12:06):
I'm going to be the owner of thechoices that I'm making about my
writing and like puttingyourself back in the driver's
seat I think can be huge.
And yeah, I love the example oflike, how can you set the bar so
low that you kind of trip overit, right?
Like it, you don't have to cleara huge hurdle to start writing.
Like what is, what is an amountof writing that feels almost
(12:28):
silly to, to say you could do.
Start there if you are superstuck, like set that bar so, so
low.
BETH BARANY (12:36):
let's Switch gears a little bit to something that's
super timely and also, affectingour lives now and will continue
to affect our lives, which isAI.
And what role do you see AIplaying in the future of
creative business, especiallyonline?
And we're talking to be morespecific, the tools like chat
GPT, the LLMs, the largelanguage models.
(12:59):
yeah.
What are your thoughts on that?
BAILEY LANG (13:01):
ideally none at all.
That would be my ideal world.
I think that these tools areactively harmful in many, many
ways to our creativity, to ourability to think, to our ability
to produce new ideas, right?
Because they're.
Aside from all of the hype aboutthem, right, they are based on
probabilistic models.
They are constantly pullingeverything toward sameness and
(13:24):
the mean, right?
That's how they, that's how theyoperate.
So the more we see people relyon them, the more everything's
gonna sound and look the same.
that said these tools are outthere.
I don't, barring a completecollapse of all technology, I
don't think they're fully gonnago anywhere.
I think that once this hypecycle kind of dies down and we
see what really is theirfunction, what really is their
(13:47):
utility, I think we'll start tosee some more realistic use
cases.
Right?
Like right now we're still inthat cycle where.
There's a lot of people who arelike, oh, you know, it's gonna
replace writers and, you know,we're not gonna need creatives
and artists and people who makethings and think creatively.
And I simply don't think thatthat will ever be true.
Right?
I don't think that thesetechnologies can replace your
(14:08):
human creativity, but I do thinkthat there are really narrow,
well scoped use cases for someof these tools.
so Karen, how's book Empire ofAI is a really, really good read
on this topic.
She has a lot of informationjust first about how like weird
and deceptive and dysfunctionala lot of AI companies and
(14:29):
marketing are, but also thehistory of LLMs and the use
cases that they would actuallybe really well suited for.
So there's this beautifulexample of how LLMs are being
used to preserve some indigenouslanguages and they're being used
and owned and operated byspeakers of those languages to
(14:51):
serve their communities.
that's incredible.
If we can get stuff like thatwhere these tools really are
serving our needs and notexploiting and extracting from
creatives and data workers inthe environment.
That would be amazing.
Right?
I would love to see things movein that direction.
That's definitely not where weare right now, but I think that
(15:13):
possibility still exists.
BETH BARANY (15:15):
Then for creative businesses.
I have some examples that Icould share that I could answer
this question, but I'm curiouswhat you think.
There you are, you're a writer,you're a novelist, you have a
book.
You might be a nonfictionwriter, maybe you're, you're
writing articles in what way canthese tools actually, maybe be
(15:36):
useful or, or do you think notat all for us, writers.
BAILEY LANG (15:40):
I talk to a lot of writers who use these tools for,
they'll give it a piece of textthey've written and say, what
have I missed here?
What's another angle on thisthat maybe I have not thought
of?
That can be helpful up to anextent.
I think that is a potential usecase.
I think you still have to becareful, right?
Because these tools are notthinking, they're not truly
evaluating anything that yougive them.
(16:02):
they're taking text data setsand spitting out the most likely
answer that, that seemsplausible, right?
So you still have to be reallycareful, but I know that there
are some people who have used itin that way, um, as kind of like
a very early stage brainstormythought partner.
So that's, that's onepossibility.
(16:23):
it with, 50 caveats stacked ontop.
Uh, but I would be reallycurious to hear like what you
see as some possibilities forthese tools.
BETH BARANY (16:31):
Where I find it the most useful is when I've spent a
lot of time creating somethingand then I want the AI tool to
extract my short marketingmessages from it because, and
I've always felt this way sinceyears and years and years ago
where I had to, I wrote it, thenovel, and then someone's like,
Hey, you've gotta write a pitchfor this novel.
And I was just like horrifiedand actually felt.
(16:54):
I felt like I was being asked todo damage to the story by
condensing it to two sentences.
Well.
These tools can help you dothat.
Um, I know now how to write anelevator pitch for my fiction,
but, writing an article andthen, or writing, writing a
landing page, you know that Ispend tons of time writing a
sales page for class and thenhaving the tools extract.
(17:14):
20, you know, marketing messagesfrom it.
it's like a writing assistant.
And then of course I go througheverything and make sure it's my
voice and, and I can train thetool.
I don't use Chat GPT I useNotion's AI and it's trained on
me so I can say, you know, usingmy voice, my branding voice,
which I've already trained iton, You know, x, y, z types of
(17:36):
marketing messages and be surenot to hallucinate or use
emojis.
use my brand voice guidelines.
you know, I've gone through alot of processes to, to be able
to do that.
So it shortcuts the work for me.
And then I can go through it,review it, and test them.
You know, I usually test theminside of the different social
medias, make sure they have theright length or whatever, and
then I can hand them off to myteam that will put them out into
(17:58):
the world for me.
So.
I find that incredibly helpful.
Also, I've used it to write,emails, same kind of thing,
like, here's the marketingmaterial I created on my own.
Now adapt this to differentkinds of emails.
Then I've also used it togenerate lists of hashtags.
Like, here's 10 hashtags, pleasegenerate 20 more for me in this
this audience for this purpose,for this content.
(18:18):
Its strength is that it'spulling from what is already
known.
BAILEY LANG (18:22):
Yes.
BETH BARANY (18:22):
So if you're wanting to address like what is
known, what is popular, andyou're adapting-- maybe you have
some unusual content and you'relike, well, what is this like,
that's already there.
Okay, that's useful.
Or what are the hashtags peopleare currently using?
Pull those in'cause you wannacatch people's attention right
now.
Mm-hmm.
So that's where I use it themost.
(18:42):
I also use it for ideageneration for names, naming.
That's a huge thing for me.
Give me 30 names, that mean thisor this type of culture, or mix
these two cultures and come upwith a bunch of names or, fun
things, inventions.
And then I'll take what it givesme and I'll invent on top of
that.
I'm like, oh, I like a bit fromhere and a bit from there.
So it's a quick way to get awhole bunch of ideas.
(19:04):
So I'm not staring at a babynaming site I need a kind of
newness.
those are pretty much the mainthing.
And then I also use it forresearch.
I use Perplexity for researchbecause it's pulling right from
the web and I can get it tocompile information quickly for
me.
Mm-hmm.
so it's a time saver.
I think they're primarily timesavers, but it's icky for me to
use it for fiction.
(19:24):
I'm like, are you kidding?
Right.
Never do that.
Right.
But I also have used it, andthen on the business side, I've
used it to help me draft somebusiness things because, and
tell me where my blind spotsare, because it is working on
today's know-how.
So I find that useful because Ihave a lot of blind spots, so,
I'm using, I guess like a miniteacher, I suppose.
BAILEY LANG (19:46):
Yeah.
I hear you saying, you know,like, yeah, this is not
something that you would use togenerate your fiction.
Right.
That would be so outside, so farbeyond the pale, but like all of
these uses of saving time.
Right.
Taking a task that wouldnormally take you way longer and
having a tool that lets youstreamline that a little bit.
(20:06):
These are really narrow usesthat I think, it's, that's a
good function for this tool.
I don't think that it is areplacement for creativity.
And like you said, right?
You're taking what it gives youand then you are riffing on that
further.
You are still using all of thosecritical thinking skills.
All of those writing skills, allof that creativity that you have
honed over the course of yourcareer to say you can look at
(20:28):
that and then discern this isuseful and this is not right.
And that's, that's where I worryabout like overreliance on those
tools by people with lessexperience.
Then they won't build thosemuscles, right.
And they'll lose the ability tosay, this is helpful and this is
not.
And so I think there's, I thinkthere are like risks there, but
the way that you have describedusing it like that makes total
(20:50):
sense to me.
BETH BARANY (20:51):
Yeah.
And I do think there's a hugerisk, and I saw it from day one
'cause I was fiddling aroundwith chat GPT when it first came
out in November, 2022, I didtests on it.
I did some podcast episodes onthose tests.
critical thinking skills- theyare, they're diminishing.
it's measurable and our abilityto handle the blank page and our
(21:13):
ability to ask criticalquestions and, and evaluate and
discern and critique and all ofthat.
Uh, they're, they arediminishing and they're, I think
more important than ever.
And I foresee that there's gonnabe more and more classes.
But as we wrap up today, I'dlove this question that you
offered up, and I think it's soimportant, which is: What tips
(21:35):
do you have for neurodivergentwriters who wanna build a strong
writing practice?
BAILEY LANG (21:40):
Yeah, this is one of my favorite things to talk
About.
so I am autistic.
so this is a topic that is nearand dear to my heart personally.
It's something that I spend alot of time reading and writing
and thinking about.
a lot of people that I work withare neurodivergent in one way or
another.
and so I think it's important,particularly for neurodivergent
writers, kinda like I wastalking about earlier, to
(22:02):
recognize that, advice thatworks for somebody else.
May not be the advice that worksfor you, right?
So if you are someone like mewho requires both a lot of
structure and a lot of noveltyin your writing process, right?
That may be a situation where.
You're gonna set up a writingpractice and then blow it up
(22:22):
every three weeks and dosomething different, because
that is what your brain needs.
if you are someone who justrequires novelty, right?
Someone being like, Hey, usethis habit tracker is going to
feel like someone told you tosit on this fire anthill, right?
Like, you're just, it's notgonna work for you.
Um, and it'll be painful if youtry.
so really recognizing like, whatare.
(22:43):
The features of yourneurodivergence that intersect
with that bump up against thatalign really well with different
pieces of writing advice, anddon't be afraid to modify stuff
to make it work for you.
it's, it is extra work forneurodivergent people to be in
the world and try to doanything, and that sucks and is
(23:04):
unfair.
but it is really hard on us alsoto try to do something that, a
way, the way a neurotypicalperson would, right.
It's, that's gonna add a lot ofcognitive burden, uh, and it'll
burn you out to try.
So don't be afraid to do thatwork.
Right?
And, and kind of start there andsay, what is it that my mind and
body need to fully let me be inmy creativity and to live that
(23:29):
out in the best way possible?
And to be okay with that, notlooking like how it.
Quote, unquote should look orhow somebody else tells you it
ought to be right.
It, it has to work for you.
Um, so that's something that I,I will probably be beating that
drum for the rest of my career.
It's like it doesn't have towork for anybody else, it just
has to work for you.
(23:50):
How do we make space foreverybody?
How do we all get to be thecreators and the storytellers
and the thinkers that we are?
BETH BARANY (24:00):
Yeah, and I would say that's definitely the
premise of my work here with thepodcast, but also my fiction.
It's like, well, why can't weall be supported fully?
Supported fully, emotionally,creatively, psychologically,
physically.
You know, why is it only somepeople and I just call BS on
that, that's baloney.
We're all human animals andwe're all part of the animal
(24:23):
kingdom.
So even the animals, right?
Like we are in the animalkingdom, let us include that.
I like to throw one morequestion at people toward the
end of the podcast, which is,what does it mean for you this
whole notion of to write thefuture?
BAILEY LANG (24:40):
Oh, it's such a beautiful question and I really
believe that writing is a formof magic.
Like storytelling is quiteliterally magical.
You are creating.
Worlds and people and ideas andvisions that didn't exist
before.
And you are bringing those forthinto being, and I think similar
(25:04):
to your motto, right?
Like our ability to, to imaginethese things, to share these
ideas with each other, that ishow we move forward.
That's how we get a future thatis better for all of us.
We have to have stories.
They, they foster connection.
They build empathy.
You know, they lighten the loadwhen things are really heavy.
(25:24):
If that's not magic, I don'tknow what is.
BETH BARANY (25:27):
Oh, I love it.
Bailey, thank you so, so muchfor being a guest
BAILEY LANG (25:30):
Thank you for having me.
BETH BARANY (25:33):
All right, everyone.
That's it for this week.
Write long and prosper.
And that's a wrap.
Hey everyone, welcome to or welcome back, to
How to Write the Future Podcast.
I'm your host Beth Barany, and Iam a science fiction and fantasy
writer, helping writers go fromlight bulb" to draft.
I also work with creativeentrepreneurs to take their
business into action and put itinto the world and help their
(00:22):
audience.
And I love running this podcastbecause at How to Write the
Future podcast, I not only getto talk to science fiction and
fantasy writers, but I also getto talk to thinkers and people
who are helping us expand intomaybe a new version of who we
want to be.
So I believe in the power of theimagination, and I believe in
the power of creativity.
(00:43):
So especially storytellers andwriters and all artists, we are
such an important job in ourculture, and I believe, and
here's my motto, that when wevision what is possible for us
as humans on this planet, wehelp make it so.
That is my optimism showing andI just wanna welcome to our
(01:06):
stage, Bailey.
Hi Bailey.
BAILEY LANG (01:08):
Hello.
Thank you for having me.
I'm so excited to talk to youtoday.
BETH BARANY (01:12):
me too.
I am so excited.
So if you could introduceyourself to everyone, that would
be awesome.
BAILEY LANG (01:19):
Yeah.
So hi everybody.
Uh, I'm Bailey Lang.
I am a book coach, editor, andwriter.
Um, my company's called TheWriting Desk and I work with
authors, creatives, academics,entrepreneurs, a little bit of
everybody, to build sustainable,enjoyable writing practices that
take their books from draft todone.
BETH BARANY (01:40):
I just love that, from draft to done.
Good job.
great little pithy statementthere.
You're writing for our blog,Writer's Fun Zone, and I'm
really intrigued by your topic,"habits of mind," and I find
that just so attractive.
If you could tell us a littlebit about: What are the habits
of mind and why are theyimportant to writers?
BAILEY LANG (02:04):
yes.
Such a good question.
So often when we think about ourwriting habits, right, we're
thinking about the actualphysical act of sitting down to
write, right?
Like the external sorts ofhabits that maybe it's happening
once a day, maybe it's happeningonce a week, but it's something
you're sitting down and, anddoing physically in some way.
And the habits of mind are ourthinking patterns, right?
(02:27):
It's the things that arehappening in our heads kind of
all of the time.
Um, and those sort of underpinall of our other habits.
And so my dissertation researchway back when was about about
these habits of mind, right?
So there is this research thatcame out in.
Oh gosh, 2011, on Habits of Mindthat help writers be successful.
(02:51):
And they were specificallylooking at post-secondary
writers.
So college students,transitioning out of high school
into college.
What are the mental habits thathelp people succeed in writing
in this new environment?
And the sort of researchquestion that I was pursuing is
like, are these habits of mind?
Things that we see show up insuccessful writers in other
(03:12):
places.
Are these habits of minegenerally true of successful
writers?
And so I am a big old archivalresearch dork.
so my research project waslooking at: can we find evidence
for these habits of mind in thehistorical record, uh, in the
writing of, of people from thepast?
and so what I found was, yeah,we do see it.
(03:35):
And so part of the work that Ido now is really helping writers
get a handle on what thesehabits of mind look like for
them in their practicescurrently.
Are these things that they areactively engaging in?
Are these things that they couldbe cultivating more?
and just seeing how, like whenyou practice some of this stuff,
when you really train your brainto think in these specific ways,
(03:57):
the payoff for your writingpractice can be pretty
impressive.
Um, it's really cool to see.
BETH BARANY (04:03):
And when you say payoff, like what tangible
results are you talking about?
BAILEY LANG (04:07):
Yeah.
People who work on the habits ofmind typically find that they
have an easier time sitting downto write.
They have more ideas, they feelmore confident in their writing.
all of those things that kind ofcontribute to feeling blocked.
Right?
And struggling to sit down atthe page and write.
Some of that starts toalleviate, when you focus on
these habits of mind, becauseoften the stuff that keeps us
(04:29):
from writing is, is mentalbefore it's anything else,
right?
We're like, we get in our ownway.
that the internal critic, all ofthat kind of stuff can come up.
And so working on your habits ofmind can really inform the
entire rest of your writingpractice.
BETH BARANY (04:44):
Yeah, so, so important.
So what can writers do?
How can they cultivate stronghabits of mind?
Maybe you could just tell us oneof these habits that you think,
or that you've seen having thebiggest impact with your
clients.
BAILEY LANG (04:58):
Oh my gosh.
It's so hard to pick.
there are eight habits of mindthat are studied, and so I'll
just give you a brief kind oflist of what those are, and then
I'll talk about one inparticular.
So the habits of mind are: curiosity, openness, engagement, (05:07):
undefined
creativity, persistence,responsibility, flexibility, and
metacognition.
So that's a whole lot of terms.
Metacognition is typically theone where people go, huh, I
don't know what you're talkingabout.
So that's the one that I wannatalk about.
it is also one of the ones thatI think is foundational to all
(05:29):
the rest.
So metacognition is the abilityto think about your own
thinking.
Which sounds very Inception.
but if you are someone whojournals who has a mindfulness
meditation practice, who hasdone breath work, who has any
sort of intuitive practicethat's metacognition, you're
already doing it.
(05:50):
and so if you're thinking thatsounds too esoteric and
complicated and difficult, it'sreally not right.
It really is just a matter ofbeing able to notice what is
going on mentally.
Then you get into a positionwhere you can make decisions
about whether you want tocontinue down that path or do
something that is going tointervene.
so if you are like me, someonewho has anxiety and you catch
(06:14):
yourself like, oh, I am in aspiral right now.
I need to go sit outside for afew minutes and do some breath
work and like ground myself.
it's metacognition that kind ofintervenes in that spiral and
goes, Hey, here's the pattern.
We've seen this before.
Like, what do we need to dohere?
So when it comes to writing,metacognition can really help
you.
If every time you sit down onthe page you're like.
(06:36):
this is gonna be really hard andI'm not gonna produce anything
good and I'm, am I just wastingmy time, et cetera.
You can start to notice thosethought patterns and then
actively replace them withthings that feel more helpful.
Um, so that's like metacognitionis a really powerful tool to
practice with.
BETH BARANY (06:54):
I love that.
And, and metacognition, I woulddefinitely say is a big part of,
the NLP training.
I received a huge part.
It's all about like noticing.
What do you notice?
That's a big question.
We might ask others, but I askmyself too, what do I notice?
And so one of my journal promptsfor myself is: what's going on
here, Beth?
BAILEY LANG (07:15):
I love that.
BETH BARANY (07:16):
Because I notice when I get in a spiral and I've
had low level anxiety, I reallynoticed it when I started my
business 20 years ago.
I would have, I would just bekind of anxious and I didn't
know.
And, and finally I realized, oh,I am like operating on low level
anxiety, like all the time.
So what, starting to ask myself,what's going on here?
(07:37):
And especially when I'm stuck inthe hard parts of writing, like
editing like I am now and havebeen for a while, I'm constantly
asking myself, what's going onhere?
Because the meta of editing to,from my perspective.
Is the reason we're having a,I'm having a hard time is that
I'm asking myself to deal withsome difficult things in the
(07:58):
story itself.
The story's asking me to dealwith some difficult emotions,
and it's totally okay that Imight be having a challenging
time at that because there's areason why I left this part of
the editing to the end, and hereI am bumping up against it and,
and feeling overwhelmed by it.
I'm like, oh, okay.
So when I ask myself in myjournal sessions before I write.
(08:20):
And edit.
It's, Hey, what's going on here?
Then I start to recognize thepattern, the, yeah.
Habit of mind.
Yeah.
BAILEY LANG (08:28):
Oh, I love that.
Yeah.
That's such a beautifulquestion, and it, it really
just, it does put you into kindof that observer mode and not
being this stuck in theexperience mode, and that's,
that's the power of thatquestion.
That's great.
BETH BARANY (08:40):
So powerful.
So what else should writers knowabout building a sustainable,
enjoyable writing practice?
BAILEY LANG (08:47):
I have a issue of my newsletter about this coming
out in a couple weeks.
I was just writing about thistopic like all morning.
One of the big things that I'malways trying to tell people is
you have to figure out whatworks for you and what works for
somebody else may not be whatworks for you.
So if you ever are gettingadvice from someone and they're
like, well, this worked for me,It should work for you too.
(09:09):
Just remember, that's notnecessarily true, right?
They don't have your life, theydon't have your experiences,
they don't have yourconstraints.
They may have the absolute bestof intentions and they may just
be really excited that like,Hey, this worked for them,
right?
It's, I'm not saying that peoplesaying that have any bad
intentions, but you have to bereally discerning about writing
(09:30):
advice and be willing toexperiment with stuff.
Right.
Um, you may have a sensesometimes that like, ooh, I
don't know, that doesn't soundlike it's gonna be fun or
enjoyable.
Or effective.
And then sometimes you trysomething and you're like, wow,
that really, that really worked.
so being willing to experiment Ithink is really good, but also
cultivate that awareness oflike, something that somebody
(09:51):
says is the best piece ofwriting advice in the world may
not be the best piece of writingadvice for you.
And the only writing practicethat is truly sustainable is the
one that you are going to tomaintain, right, and stick with
or adapt as circumstanceschange.
But it has to work for you.
It can't be the other wayaround.
BETH BARANY (10:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and what I noticed ispeople can get frozen at the
threshold.
And I don't know about you.
I'd be curious to hear what youthink, but my solution to that
is timed writing and thesmallest amount of timed writing
that feels feasible.
So not an impossible, like Igonna write for an hour, but my
favorite is 20 minutes.
(10:30):
Some people love 15.
I even say stand in yourkitchen, heat your coffee up.
And write for two minutes.
And just to have the experienceof what is it actually like to
physically be writing constantlyfor a very, very small, almost
dumb amount of time.
Like I could do a minute, Icould do two minutes, well do
it.
Go and see what that's like.
(10:50):
Write small.
Challenge yourself self to writefive 50 words or a hundred
words.
So it doesn't have to be a timebound.
It could be word bound, whateverworks.
But really, if you have the urgeto write, but you're not
writing, that's actually wherethe pain sits.
That's why you're in pain.
You're not in pain because ofsomething else.
You're actually in pain'causeyou're not doing what you love.
(11:11):
Yes.
and what's the easiest ask Youcan ask your system like, oh
sure, but I could do a minute.
So I don't know what yourthought is on that.
if your habits of mind includethat like threshold I wanna be
writing, but I'm not writing.
BAILEY LANG (11:26):
I think there's a few that kind of touch on that.
So you have like the, theflexibility element, right?
Is that willingness to, say, I'mgonna try something right?
I am.
While my tea steeps, I'm justgonna pull a notebook out and
write.
You know, that's three, fourminutes.
so being willing to, to tryother stuff and just see like
what clicks, what doesn't.
(11:46):
Yeah.
Flexibility is huge in that,that openness, I think is big
too.
Just again, that willingness totry, not to close off
possibilities before you givethem a shot.
but also then the responsibilityelement of like, I'm going to,
to try this and then reflect onit, And taking that element of:
did this really work for me?
I'm going to evaluate it.
(12:06):
I'm going to be the owner of thechoices that I'm making about my
writing and like puttingyourself back in the driver's
seat I think can be huge.
And yeah, I love the example oflike, how can you set the bar so
low that you kind of trip overit, right?
Like it, you don't have to cleara huge hurdle to start writing.
Like what is, what is an amountof writing that feels almost
(12:28):
silly to, to say you could do.
Start there if you are superstuck, like set that bar so, so
low.
BETH BARANY (12:36):
let's Switch gears a little bit to something that's
super timely and also, affectingour lives now and will continue
to affect our lives, which isAI.
And what role do you see AIplaying in the future of
creative business, especiallyonline?
And we're talking to be morespecific, the tools like chat
GPT, the LLMs, the largelanguage models.
(12:59):
yeah.
What are your thoughts on that?
BAILEY LANG (13:01):
ideally none at all.
That would be my ideal world.
I think that these tools areactively harmful in many, many
ways to our creativity, to ourability to think, to our ability
to produce new ideas, right?
Because they're.
Aside from all of the hype aboutthem, right, they are based on
probabilistic models.
They are constantly pullingeverything toward sameness and
(13:24):
the mean, right?
That's how they, that's how theyoperate.
So the more we see people relyon them, the more everything's
gonna sound and look the same.
that said these tools are outthere.
I don't, barring a completecollapse of all technology, I
don't think they're fully gonnago anywhere.
I think that once this hypecycle kind of dies down and we
see what really is theirfunction, what really is their
(13:47):
utility, I think we'll start tosee some more realistic use
cases.
Right?
Like right now we're still inthat cycle where.
There's a lot of people who arelike, oh, you know, it's gonna
replace writers and, you know,we're not gonna need creatives
and artists and people who makethings and think creatively.
And I simply don't think thatthat will ever be true.
Right?
I don't think that thesetechnologies can replace your
(14:08):
human creativity, but I do thinkthat there are really narrow,
well scoped use cases for someof these tools.
so Karen, how's book Empire ofAI is a really, really good read
on this topic.
She has a lot of informationjust first about how like weird
and deceptive and dysfunctionala lot of AI companies and
(14:29):
marketing are, but also thehistory of LLMs and the use
cases that they would actuallybe really well suited for.
So there's this beautifulexample of how LLMs are being
used to preserve some indigenouslanguages and they're being used
and owned and operated byspeakers of those languages to
(14:51):
serve their communities.
that's incredible.
If we can get stuff like thatwhere these tools really are
serving our needs and notexploiting and extracting from
creatives and data workers inthe environment.
That would be amazing.
Right?
I would love to see things movein that direction.
That's definitely not where weare right now, but I think that
(15:13):
possibility still exists.
BETH BARANY (15:15):
Then for creative businesses.
I have some examples that Icould share that I could answer
this question, but I'm curiouswhat you think.
There you are, you're a writer,you're a novelist, you have a
book.
You might be a nonfictionwriter, maybe you're, you're
writing articles in what way canthese tools actually, maybe be
(15:36):
useful or, or do you think notat all for us, writers.
BAILEY LANG (15:40):
I talk to a lot of writers who use these tools for,
they'll give it a piece of textthey've written and say, what
have I missed here?
What's another angle on thisthat maybe I have not thought
of?
That can be helpful up to anextent.
I think that is a potential usecase.
I think you still have to becareful, right?
Because these tools are notthinking, they're not truly
evaluating anything that yougive them.
(16:02):
they're taking text data setsand spitting out the most likely
answer that, that seemsplausible, right?
So you still have to be reallycareful, but I know that there
are some people who have used itin that way, um, as kind of like
a very early stage brainstormythought partner.
So that's, that's onepossibility.
(16:23):
it with, 50 caveats stacked ontop.
Uh, but I would be reallycurious to hear like what you
see as some possibilities forthese tools.
BETH BARANY (16:31):
Where I find it the most useful is when I've spent a
lot of time creating somethingand then I want the AI tool to
extract my short marketingmessages from it because, and
I've always felt this way sinceyears and years and years ago
where I had to, I wrote it, thenovel, and then someone's like,
Hey, you've gotta write a pitchfor this novel.
And I was just like horrifiedand actually felt.
(16:54):
I felt like I was being asked todo damage to the story by
condensing it to two sentences.
Well.
These tools can help you dothat.
Um, I know now how to write anelevator pitch for my fiction,
but, writing an article andthen, or writing, writing a
landing page, you know that Ispend tons of time writing a
sales page for class and thenhaving the tools extract.
(17:14):
20, you know, marketing messagesfrom it.
it's like a writing assistant.
And then of course I go througheverything and make sure it's my
voice and, and I can train thetool.
I don't use Chat GPT I useNotion's AI and it's trained on
me so I can say, you know, usingmy voice, my branding voice,
which I've already trained iton, You know, x, y, z types of
(17:36):
marketing messages and be surenot to hallucinate or use
emojis.
use my brand voice guidelines.
you know, I've gone through alot of processes to, to be able
to do that.
So it shortcuts the work for me.
And then I can go through it,review it, and test them.
You know, I usually test theminside of the different social
medias, make sure they have theright length or whatever, and
then I can hand them off to myteam that will put them out into
(17:58):
the world for me.
So.
I find that incredibly helpful.
Also, I've used it to write,emails, same kind of thing,
like, here's the marketingmaterial I created on my own.
Now adapt this to differentkinds of emails.
Then I've also used it togenerate lists of hashtags.
Like, here's 10 hashtags, pleasegenerate 20 more for me in this
this audience for this purpose,for this content.
(18:18):
Its strength is that it'spulling from what is already
known.
BAILEY LANG (18:22):
Yes.
BETH BARANY (18:22):
So if you're wanting to address like what is
known, what is popular, andyou're adapting-- maybe you have
some unusual content and you'relike, well, what is this like,
that's already there.
Okay, that's useful.
Or what are the hashtags peopleare currently using?
Pull those in'cause you wannacatch people's attention right
now.
Mm-hmm.
So that's where I use it themost.
(18:42):
I also use it for ideageneration for names, naming.
That's a huge thing for me.
Give me 30 names, that mean thisor this type of culture, or mix
these two cultures and come upwith a bunch of names or, fun
things, inventions.
And then I'll take what it givesme and I'll invent on top of
that.
I'm like, oh, I like a bit fromhere and a bit from there.
So it's a quick way to get awhole bunch of ideas.
(19:04):
So I'm not staring at a babynaming site I need a kind of
newness.
those are pretty much the mainthing.
And then I also use it forresearch.
I use Perplexity for researchbecause it's pulling right from
the web and I can get it tocompile information quickly for
me.
Mm-hmm.
so it's a time saver.
I think they're primarily timesavers, but it's icky for me to
use it for fiction.
(19:24):
I'm like, are you kidding?
Right.
Never do that.
Right.
But I also have used it, andthen on the business side, I've
used it to help me draft somebusiness things because, and
tell me where my blind spotsare, because it is working on
today's know-how.
So I find that useful because Ihave a lot of blind spots, so,
I'm using, I guess like a miniteacher, I suppose.
BAILEY LANG (19:46):
Yeah.
I hear you saying, you know,like, yeah, this is not
something that you would use togenerate your fiction.
Right.
That would be so outside, so farbeyond the pale, but like all of
these uses of saving time.
Right.
Taking a task that wouldnormally take you way longer and
having a tool that lets youstreamline that a little bit.
(20:06):
These are really narrow usesthat I think, it's, that's a
good function for this tool.
I don't think that it is areplacement for creativity.
And like you said, right?
You're taking what it gives youand then you are riffing on that
further.
You are still using all of thosecritical thinking skills.
All of those writing skills, allof that creativity that you have
honed over the course of yourcareer to say you can look at
(20:28):
that and then discern this isuseful and this is not right.
And that's, that's where I worryabout like overreliance on those
tools by people with lessexperience.
Then they won't build thosemuscles, right.
And they'll lose the ability tosay, this is helpful and this is
not.
And so I think there's, I thinkthere are like risks there, but
the way that you have describedusing it like that makes total
(20:50):
sense to me.
BETH BARANY (20:51):
Yeah.
And I do think there's a hugerisk, and I saw it from day one
'cause I was fiddling aroundwith chat GPT when it first came
out in November, 2022, I didtests on it.
I did some podcast episodes onthose tests.
critical thinking skills- theyare, they're diminishing.
it's measurable and our abilityto handle the blank page and our
(21:13):
ability to ask criticalquestions and, and evaluate and
discern and critique and all ofthat.
Uh, they're, they arediminishing and they're, I think
more important than ever.
And I foresee that there's gonnabe more and more classes.
But as we wrap up today, I'dlove this question that you
offered up, and I think it's soimportant, which is: What tips
(21:35):
do you have for neurodivergentwriters who wanna build a strong
writing practice?
BAILEY LANG (21:40):
Yeah, this is one of my favorite things to talk
About.
so I am autistic.
so this is a topic that is nearand dear to my heart personally.
It's something that I spend alot of time reading and writing
and thinking about.
a lot of people that I work withare neurodivergent in one way or
another.
and so I think it's important,particularly for neurodivergent
writers, kinda like I wastalking about earlier, to
(22:02):
recognize that, advice thatworks for somebody else.
May not be the advice that worksfor you, right?
So if you are someone like mewho requires both a lot of
structure and a lot of noveltyin your writing process, right?
That may be a situation where.
You're gonna set up a writingpractice and then blow it up
(22:22):
every three weeks and dosomething different, because
that is what your brain needs.
if you are someone who justrequires novelty, right?
Someone being like, Hey, usethis habit tracker is going to
feel like someone told you tosit on this fire anthill, right?
Like, you're just, it's notgonna work for you.
Um, and it'll be painful if youtry.
so really recognizing like, whatare.
(22:43):
The features of yourneurodivergence that intersect
with that bump up against thatalign really well with different
pieces of writing advice, anddon't be afraid to modify stuff
to make it work for you.
it's, it is extra work forneurodivergent people to be in
the world and try to doanything, and that sucks and is
(23:04):
unfair.
but it is really hard on us alsoto try to do something that, a
way, the way a neurotypicalperson would, right.
It's, that's gonna add a lot ofcognitive burden, uh, and it'll
burn you out to try.
So don't be afraid to do thatwork.
Right?
And, and kind of start there andsay, what is it that my mind and
body need to fully let me be inmy creativity and to live that
(23:29):
out in the best way possible?
And to be okay with that, notlooking like how it.
Quote, unquote should look orhow somebody else tells you it
ought to be right.
It, it has to work for you.
Um, so that's something that I,I will probably be beating that
drum for the rest of my career.
It's like it doesn't have towork for anybody else, it just
has to work for you.
(23:50):
How do we make space foreverybody?
How do we all get to be thecreators and the storytellers
and the thinkers that we are?
BETH BARANY (24:00):
Yeah, and I would say that's definitely the
premise of my work here with thepodcast, but also my fiction.
It's like, well, why can't weall be supported fully?
Supported fully, emotionally,creatively, psychologically,
physically.
You know, why is it only somepeople and I just call BS on
that, that's baloney.
We're all human animals andwe're all part of the animal
(24:23):
kingdom.
So even the animals, right?
Like we are in the animalkingdom, let us include that.
I like to throw one morequestion at people toward the
end of the podcast, which is,what does it mean for you this
whole notion of to write thefuture?
BAILEY LANG (24:40):
Oh, it's such a beautiful question and I really
believe that writing is a formof magic.
Like storytelling is quiteliterally magical.
You are creating.
Worlds and people and ideas andvisions that didn't exist
before.
And you are bringing those forthinto being, and I think similar
(25:04):
to your motto, right?
Like our ability to, to imaginethese things, to share these
ideas with each other, that ishow we move forward.
That's how we get a future thatis better for all of us.
We have to have stories.
They, they foster connection.
They build empathy.
You know, they lighten the loadwhen things are really heavy.
(25:24):
If that's not magic, I don'tknow what is.
BETH BARANY (25:27):
Oh, I love it.
Bailey, thank you so, so muchfor being a guest
BAILEY LANG (25:30):
Thank you for having me.
BETH BARANY (25:33):
All right, everyone.
That's it for this week.
Write long and prosper.
And that's a wrap.
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