January 16, 2025 • 35 mins
Chris McAlister, founder of SightShift and renowned leadership coach, explores the crucial difference between leading for validation versus leading for genuine impact.
[0:00] Introduction
•Welcome, Chris!
•Today’s Topic: Leading for Impact, Not Validation
[5:13] The problem with leadership today
•How the quest for validation undermines effective leadership
•Focusing on the organization’s needs and not personal wishes
[12:55] How do leaders overcome their insecurities?
•Measuring and managing insecurities
•How toxic workplace cultures challenge leaders
[24:57] What can HR practitioners can support leadership development
•Focusing on positive growth over risk management
•Why traditional leadership training often falls short
[33:28] Closing
•Try this: Identify the last time you had a moment of insecurity in the workplace
•Thanks for listening!
Quick Quote
“[HR leaders] are not here just to protect the organization from harm, . . . [they’re] also here for how good it can get.”
Resources
SightShift
Lead For Impact: Why Mindfulness, Empathy, and Psychological Safety Don’t Make Great Leaders
Contact:
Chris' LinkedIn
David's LinkedIn
Podcast Manager: Karissa Harris
Email us!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Announcer (00:01):
The world of business is more complex than ever. The
world of human resources andcompensation is also getting
more complex. Welcome to the HRData Labs podcast, your direct
source for the latest trendsfrom experts inside and outside
the world of human resources.
Listen as we explore the impactthat compensation strategy, data
and people analytics can have onyour organization. This podcast
(00:24):
is sponsored by Salary.com, yoursource for data technology and
consulting for compensation andbeyond. Now here are your hosts,
David Turetsky and Dwight Brown.
David Turetsky (00:38):
Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs
podcast. I'm your host DavidTuretsky, and as always, we try
and find people inside andoutside the world of HR to give
you the latest on what'shappening and how it affects the
world of work. Today, we havewith us Chris McAlister. Chris,
how are you?
Chris McAlister (00:53):
Doing fantastic. It's Friday! I moved
one of my kids into her collegeapartment yesterday.
David Turetsky (00:59):
Oh, my goodness!
Chris McAlister (01:00):
yeah. Life is crazy.
David Turetsky (01:02):
Well, that means a lot of change,
Chris McAlister (01:05):
yes
David Turetsky (01:05):
and we'll talk about that. We're going to be
talking about a lot of change,but, but most especially about
leadership. But first before wedo, tell us a little bit about
yourself and tell us a littlebit about your company
SightShift!
Chris McAlister (01:16):
Yeah, so personally, just obsessed with
how leaders grow and developinto being a leader who develops
other leaders. And as thatobsession kind of grew out of
working with people and helpingthem, one day, friends were in
line, we started a company, andsince then, we've built coaching
processes and data measurementso that we can isolate that out
(01:40):
and help people with it!
David Turetsky (01:41):
Perfect. The people who listen to this
podcast love talk aboutmeasurement, and we're going to
get into a little bit today andeffectiveness of leadership, but
first, before I get to the onefun thing no one knows about,
you talk about your book alittle bit because you've got a
book out there that peopleshould be reading, right?
Chris McAlister (01:57):
Oh, thank you.
Yeah. So the newest book we justreleased, Lead for Impact, why
mindfulness, empathy andpsychological safety don't make
great leaders, and we wanted togive people a real way of
evaluating leadership that was atemplate, not temperament based.
So most leaders are evaluatingleadership based on temperament,
(02:18):
and it's the temperament thatthey most value. So if they're
extroverted and gregarious andthey lead like that, then
they'll hire out of theirinsecurities, build teams and
value leaders who lead likethat. Likewise, if they're data
focused and more logical andmore process oriented, the same
is true, and that's just anunfair way to evaluate leaders,
(02:42):
because we know it's more thantemperament, so we're trying to
offer a template, how to do that
David Turetsky (02:49):
So we're gonna put show notes in the show
regardless of personality.
notes, we're gonna put a link tothe book and to your company,
and everybody can go take a lookat it. But now, before we get
going, what's one fun thing thatno one knows about Chris
McAlister?
Chris McAlister (03:05):
That fun thing that no one knows about Chris
McAlister, and I'm admitting ithere on the podcast,
David Turetsky (03:12):
Breaking news!
Chris McAlister (03:14):
Breaking news.
As ambitious as I am with ourorganization, at home I'm a
complete like, I just want tostand and be a dad meme and
grill. It is the wildest thing,how something completely shifts
for me. And literally, myneighbor just recently asked me,
how's life? And I said, I'mstanding here in front of the
(03:37):
grill, and it's amazing. I don'teven know fully how to make
sense of that experience, butthat that's it for me.
David Turetsky (03:46):
You know what? I actually do know what you're
talking about. Because I openedthe grill for the first time
this summer. I opened up thegrill last weekend, and I
grilled corn and I grilledhamburgers and steak, and I was
in heaven.
Chris McAlister (03:59):
Dude, I get it.
David Turetsky (04:00):
It it was the food. It was the standing there,
it was the cleaning it. It waseverything was just so awesome.
Chris McAlister (04:08):
Isn't that wild? So literally, I think I'm
on my third propane tank sinceMemorial Day, so I'm not even
like an OG guy with charcoal,and I get why that's better or
smoking, I am normy to the core,I want a propane tank. It's
super easy, and I'm excited togrill. Maybe I could talk my
(04:28):
wife into it tonight.
David Turetsky (04:30):
Well, actually, you know what, Chris, there are
a lot of people, in fact thereare, I know there are podcasts
that do grilling, that talktotally about grilling.
Chris McAlister (04:36):
Oh, that's awesome,
David Turetsky (04:37):
That's not this podcast. But we could! We could,
we could start one right now.
Chris McAlister (04:40):
You can get me, you could get me going there.
David Turetsky (04:43):
So our topic for today is one that's quite
fascinating, and for those of usin leadership, we talk a lot
about what makes effectiveleaders, and we talk a lot about
how to grow effective leaders,how to how to foment leadership.
We're going to be talking todayabout are you leading for impact
or validation? And we're goingto talk about the motive of
(05:04):
leadership.
So my first question is, Chris,what's the problem with
leadership today?
Chris McAlister (05:19):
Oh, to tell this, yeah, to tell this, share
this, just from my ownexperience. Even sharing about
my daughter, my mind is goingthere. So the one that moved
out, I had this experience. Thiswas just a few months ago, maybe
four or five months ago, andbecause we do our own books, we
were able to actually put thisstory in the book, but. Um, I am
(05:43):
doing a meeting with a businessheadquartered out of China, and
I didn't have an office at homebecause I after COVID, you know,
we all kind of worked from homefor a while, but I couldn't do
it anymore. So anyway, I'm atthe house, we're having dinner,
and I realized I got to do thismeeting, because if you're going
to meet with a company in China,8am their time is 8pm your time,
(06:04):
you're going to build aroundtheir schedule. So I go into her
bedroom to do the meeting,because she's at work, and I
open up my, uh, my computer, andon the back of the camera, I see
the bed isn't made. And I think,Oh, I gotta make this look nice
at least. So I make her bed! NowI need to tell you, David, this
is a house I pay a mortgage infor. I pay the electric, I pay
the water, I pay her carinsurance and her cell phone.
(06:27):
And now I do this meeting, wentawesome. I'm feeling like a
champion. I go sit down in theliving room. I'm on the couch.
It's after nine. She gets homefrom work, she goes up to her
bedroom and she can see that herbed is made. And here's the text
I get from her, dad, next timeyou're going to use my room,
ask.
David Turetsky (06:47):
Oh, by the way, it's a text. It's not that she
didn't come downstairs. It was atext!
Chris McAlister (06:52):
It was a text, as only people who can
understand, who have been insome moments like this, I'm
paying for all these things.
Electricity started to form atthe center of the Earth's axis.
It starts shooting up throughall of the magma, Earth's core,
into my ankles.
David Turetsky (07:11):
Oh, my God
Chris McAlister (07:12):
Through my legs, through my hips. Without
thinking, David, I started topull the phone that has gotten
this text message into my hands,and I've got my thumbs ready to
fire back a text. Tell me usethe, whose room do you think it
really is? And I've got so manydumb moments that I've led in
such a dumb way out of my owninsecurities. And this just
(07:35):
thankfully was one of thosemoments where freeze frame. I
didn't send that text becauseshe has fought some incredible
battles. She's so bad to thebone. She's saving money,
pulling down a great GPA. I'm soproud of her. I would hate to
have in that moment, led her formy own validation. Don't you
(07:58):
appreciate all I'm doing? Tellme whose room it is?
David Turetsky (08:01):
Right?
Chris McAlister (08:01):
So I think, you know, for me, it's like that
story says so much about what wesee with the teams we work with,
where the CEO is coming in, andhe's not really directing the
attention of the organization ina long form way. She's not
really guiding them to strategicbrilliance. They're really
bringing in whatever is pingingtheir anxiety the most, and
(08:25):
they're starting to very subtlyor big ways, lead for their own
validation, not impact. How canthey get the insecurities they
have about themselves comfortedin some way? And there's a
million ways this plays out.
David Turetsky (08:39):
Wow, and that's a phenomenal example, too,
because I think all of us,whether it's at work or at home,
have kind of felt that way,right, the How dare you, or the
that moment of, you know, notstepping back and saying, yeah,
no, I can see their point, butin their own shoes, saying, What
(09:01):
is going on with this person,and now I'm going to set them
straight. And it probably takesa lot of willpower, a lot of
willpower to what's the wordshort circuit, the way in which
we're thinking about that. Sohow does a leader realize that
(09:23):
they're going through this? Howdo they focus on the things that
need to be done and not thethings that they, I guess, will
to be done or wish to be done?
Chris McAlister (09:34):
Paradoxically, and this is really, really
powerful in the data, and we seeit over and over and over. It's
it's not to to try to conform orcontort yourself to show up
different, but instead, it's tobe honest about what's showing
up so you don't need to do it,but like when you feel that
(09:56):
feeling and you want to say to ateam member, just shut up and do
what I'm telling you to do.
David Turetsky (10:01):
right
Chris McAlister (10:01):
Or or you've made me so uncertain about what
you've challenged and broughtup, I don't want to keep leading
this meeting. I want to go hideaway for a while so that I can
look like I know what I'mtalking about and I have what it
takes. So whether it's, youknow, more of an extreme
outgoing form of insecure forvalidation, or more of an inward
(10:23):
form. Either way, the answerisn't to try to like willpower,
your way white knuckle, your wayto change. It is instead to
learn to see the insecurity.
That's just step one. You justhave to see it, because after
you start to see it, the brainwill self organize new behavior,
and there's ways to acceleratethat. And this goes counter
(10:44):
intuitive to the way a lot ofpeople think about change. It's
that old parable that says, youknow, you've got this good wolf
and bad wolf within you. Feedthe Good Wolf, starve the bad
wolf. And what we're saying isactually, learn to pay attention
to what the bad wolf is hungryfor, feed it a better diet,
transform it, and then you'regoing to learn how to show up
(11:05):
differently.
David Turetsky (11:07):
But, but I guess one of the questions I'll ask is
which goes to the crux of thetopic, and the question, do
those leaders think of this as aproblem?
Chris McAlister (11:17):
Love that. And by the way, I love all the
questions, because the more thebrain is kind of even protesting
or disagreeing or working itout, that's how the mind is
making sense of things. So we weare not ideologically sensitive
or allergic to those, to thosechallenges, but yeah, the way
the brain is working it out isby just starting to see one
(11:39):
moment where under stress youdid not get the result you want.
So even if you're not really,really at a place where you can
acknowledge the insecurity or orfeel the ego's insecurity, all
we need you to do is to see onemoment under stress where you
did not get the result you want,because we're working with high
(12:02):
performing people, and highperforming leaders tend to make
mistakes in about 5% of the timethat cause them their greatest
harm in getting the results theywant. Now we want to talk about
the whole person and what itmeans to see them for who they
are and feelings and all thatgood stuff, but it has to anchor
(12:23):
itself in results.
David Turetsky (12:25):
So that 5% doesn't overcome the 95% of good
that they've done!
Chris McAlister (12:29):
Perfectly stated that like, we're trying
to shine a light on that, like,just, let's start the
conversation here, because that95% is gonna get washed out by
that 5% and we hear it all thetime.
Announcer (12:44):
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Salary.com. Now back to theshow.
David Turetsky (12:53):
So let's now switch gears a little bit and
talk about Okay, so now weunderstand the problem of
leaders being able to kind ofchallenge how they act and
react. How does this manifestinside companies today? What?
What does that leader have to doto either overcome it or, you
know, what is the effect of thaton the populace, on the company?
Chris McAlister (13:16):
Yeah, the first thing is just recognizing how
this shows up in theorganization. And it's, it's so
powerful when you start to graspthis, because you've got leaders
that are saying, Okay, well, theresult is, I'm not getting
heard. Okay, tell me what's notgetting heard. And they're so
quickly worried about the casethey're stating not being
(13:36):
appreciated. Well, already weknow, okay, that person is so
concerned, cliche but true aboutbeing understood, they don't get
understanding. So ask the CEOhow the meeting go? And she
goes. It was great! I made allmy points. Well, there was what
was said and what was heard andwhat was meant, and those are
three different things. Socommunication is one way. Change
(14:00):
is another how are we changingtoo much, too fast? Someone who
values innovation comes in witha new idea every month, or we're
resistant to change! Right? Onboth polarities of that, they're
changing too much, they're notgetting into execution and
excellence, or they're notchanging enough. So we see it in
(14:20):
communication. We see it inchange, and then we see it in
connection. People feel reduceddown. They don't feel seen,
heard and known. They wish theycould have a deeper relationship
with their boss, but that's nothappening. And we know the
saying, people leave the managermore than they leave the company
or their job.
David Turetsky (14:39):
Right. And if you go back to your earlier
point is, if you're measuringthis, what are the measurements
that we can really kind of lookat that will enable us to
understand how this manifests?
Chris McAlister (14:53):
Yeah, so we measure insecurity. We're
looking at where the specificinsecurity shows up. And we
don't compete with othermeasurement tools. We complement
them. So other measurement toolswill say, you know, this is how
you communicate, and this is howpeople should communicate with
you, right? And they say, Wecan't predict things. We can
(15:15):
just tell you what is. And we'resaying this is when you're
insecure how you need to becommunicated with. What if you
transform the insecurity so youcan actually be the kind of
leader who communicates withthem in the way they need right
communicated with? So we measurethe insecurity, we measure the
behavior, and we call it provingand hiding. So in what ways are
(15:39):
they leading for validation, toconvince and prove, or they're
leading for validation to hideand diminish, and that's a
number that we can track. Andthen we look at how are they
activated, in regards to what'shappening in their leadership
role currently? Are they veryoverwhelmed to achieve? Are they
(16:00):
ready for a lot of reinvention,or are they in a place where
they're kind of coasting? And wecan look at all that and see
who's in trouble, who's readyfor more? And it's really,
really powerful. We have a blastwith it, because once we show
them the data, then the weusually start with the
leadership team. People laughand cry, laugh at the hilarity
(16:22):
of how true it is, or there'ssome tears sometimes, because
this is making sense of things.
And of course, there's usuallysomebody who's like, yeah, yeah.
Sometimes you'll have, like, aCEO be like, Well, you've
described Sam perfectly. You'vedescribed Sue perfectly, but
this isn't me, and then theleadership team members are like
snickering.
David Turetsky (16:43):
Yeah, exactly
Chris McAlister (16:44):
Bill, that is totally you!
David Turetsky (16:46):
yeah.
Chris McAlister (16:47):
So data.
David Turetsky (16:48):
And data is good, but data can be
manipulated. And so I guess mynext question is, are you, you
know, do you, have validatedthese models? Do you, do you
really get I mean, not just withpeople, but like, have you done
benchmarking where you look athigher performing organizations
and say, you know, leaders whohave this profile with these
(17:10):
scores, they tend to communicatebetter, or they tend to have
trouble with change, orsomething like that?
Chris McAlister (17:19):
Yeah. So what we have is we build the data out
to what we call culture riskfactors. So when their
insecurities show up under theirstressed, insecure moments, it's
going to have blank impact onthe culture. And we define those
risk factors, they're not goingto get buy in. They're going to
(17:39):
burn people out, you know,they're gonna allow coups to
form. You know, whatever, wehave nine different risk
factors, and then we're lookingat those risk factors to say, in
your unique culture, theserepresent the greatest dangers
or threats to the goals you seekto accomplish, and that that
really is what lights us up,because we're trying to partner
(18:01):
with whatever is that goal orvision they have, what's going
to get in the way of that? Wewant to get that solved, and
that's a people issue, so thatthe people are ready for the
success they envision.
David Turetsky (18:14):
We're in a very, I guess you could say, highly
charged environment. We'rehighly charged from a political,
environmental, culturalperspective. We're charged on
even the DE&I world. Do you seepatterns in how these are
impacting how a leader has torespond, especially given the
(18:38):
fact that their organizations,they're not what they looked
like 20 years ago. They're verydifferent. We're living in a
very different world. Have youseen an evolution? Have you seen
trends on that?
Chris McAlister (18:48):
Yeah, this is awesome. We just put a piece out
on this, and it's probablygotten the most response of
anything recently. And the pieceis just around this idea that if
you're leading a large team now,there isn't any of these larger
affiliations in society whereyou can kind of group people in
(19:09):
big ways, and they know eachother and can somewhat get
along. Instead, it's this hyperfragmentation. And so the task
of leadership is challenging.
You now, especially leading alarge team, have so many
different ideologies andworldviews, and the
sophisticated, aware leaderunderstands this. Throughout the
(19:29):
course of human history, thishas always been the case.
Different ideologies on the teammake a more impactful, explosive
team, because it is all of theviewpoints that are different
that can focus into betterstrategy, innovation in
products, multiplying out intoenterprise value, codifying
(19:50):
things more intelligently withgreat systems, and just getting
the work done. So what'spowerful is for the leader
that's aware, this represents agreat moment in time to provide
great leadership. The hard partis this, a lot of the structures
that we've counted on to supportus, the worldview, the
institution, whatever, as thoseare breaking and people are
(20:13):
disappointed and let down andthere's a loss of trust, a
leader really has to be securein who they are to understand
people are working those thingsout. And if a healthy leader is
aware of this, then they keep itfrom two ditches. Ditch one
where there's too muchpontificating and we have to
have basically a giant therapysession, and everybody's idea
(20:35):
has to be validated. Or theother extreme, we think
everybody's getting along justbecause there's silence, when we
know that's not the case.
David Turetsky (20:46):
And you could imagine in a large global
company with lots of silos, butalso lots of matrices, that
becomes extremely complex to tryand figure out, because it
becomes almost a Rubik's cube ofa leader being a leader for one
side of the fate or one face ofthe cube? No, they have to be a
they have to be a leader for allthe faces. Even though they may
(21:08):
have subordinates that aredealing with one face at a time,
they still have to bring themall together, right?
Chris McAlister (21:13):
Absolutely. And it comes down to being this kind
of leader who leads for impact,not validation. So a leader
leading for validation is goingto ram a vision through and and
be disingenuous, even heartless,lacking compassion to the unique
suffering of others. On theother extreme, a leader who
(21:34):
leads for validation and notimpact is going to be too
passive and let all thecommittees of grievance that
need to form form, and then youhave 75 committees formed around
some certain grievance, and theydevelop a victim mindset, and it
ends up drawing energy andresources from the overall
mission and vision. And so thesetwo ditches are constantly
(21:56):
happening in organizations.
Yeah, well, andwhat you end up doing is, you
David Turetsky (21:57):
Well, I've definitely seen the second one,
where those ditches that arethat are distracting, you know,
the mob mentality of, you know,we have to fix this now, have
know, on one end, you get tonsof rules and policies, rather
kind of driven companies backcrap crazy because of something
that happened that may not havebeen a big thing, but have grown
than having effective systems.
And all these rules and policiesover time to mushroom, to become
something gigantic, and saps allthe energy. A couple of
(22:18):
companies I've worked at, we'vehad small issues that become,
have become gigantic issues. Imean, I think all of us can
think of an example in our pastthat where that's happened and
it just, it just distracts from,you know, the real needs of the
of the organization.
(22:49):
limit the health andeffectiveness of the
organization, because you have amillion pieces of red tape to
get through. And again, that's aculture risk factor, like we
know, the insecurity that aspecific leader profile has that
will tend to create lots ofpolicies. And what's so powerful
to me, and this is not pie inthe sky, this is not high this
(23:10):
is deep joy. Work could providea place for great transformation
that makes all of your lifebetter. We understand what's
happening right now culturallyis individuals very often are
making whatever is the mostpainful part of their identity,
the whole of their identity.
(23:31):
Right
Chris McAlister (23:32):
And so then they're they're on a crusade to
get that part validated. So it'snot just the CEO that has to
make this shift. It's not justthe executive team. It's
throughout the organization! I'mhere for impact, not my own
validation, which surfaces theneed to grow up, which is, I
think, a current challenge we'reseeing with organizations that
are hiring large pools ofespecially younger workers.
David Turetsky (23:54):
Right. And follow up to that question. So
do you see that differently inthe stage of growth of a company
or the industry of the company?
Chris McAlister (24:04):
Great question.
It all comes down to thespecific profile of a leader and
the executive team. Yes, thestage has something to do with
it. Is it a growth company? Youknow, is this a large
enterprise, fortune 100,whatever? But ultimately, we can
measure the leader and theexecutive team and know, because
it starts there, what is thedominating insecurity in that
(24:25):
specific organization.
David Turetsky (24:31):
Hey, are you listening to this and thinking
to yourself, Man, I wish I couldtalk to David about this. Well,
you're in luck. We have aspecial offer for listeners of
the HR Data Labs podcast, a freehalf hour call with me about any
of the topics we cover on thepodcast or whatever is on your
mind. Go toSalary.com/hrdlconsulting to
(24:53):
schedule your free 30 minutecall today.
So let's say you're an HRperson, you're listening to this
and you're saying, okay, Chris,what do I do about this? How can
we give them tools to be able towalk away from the podcast and
say, you know, you know, I heardChris. I'm gonna go read his
(25:13):
book. But, but what else can Ido that will cause impact and
help my leaders out tounderstand that it doesn't need
to be about validation.
Chris McAlister (25:23):
Yeah, I love that. And I'm thinking
specifically of your audiencehere, HR leaders and and they
have to know this, and we knowthis from the HR leaders we
interact with, that much of thenarrative in the HR world
without awareness is going toshape them. And I hate to put it
in a sports analogy, because I'mnot even a huge sports guy, but
(25:45):
it's simple to do. Will shapethem to play defense more than
offense. In other words, they'regoing to be naturally with, you
know, going to conferences andbreakouts, and they're going to
be hearing the bad things thatcan go wrong, and trying to
build policies that protect fromthese bad things, and we need
(26:07):
that! We just need the footforward from HR to be more about
offense. How do we help peoplegrow and develop? And and I
don't mean to make this, youknow, overly simple, but it does
come down to the mindset they'reengaging the role with. I'm not
here just in this HR leadershiprole to protect the organization
(26:30):
from harm on how bad it can go.
I'm also here, and if we needcan get that to at least 51% or
greater for how good it can get.
How can we have an atmospherethat helps people grow and
develop all they can, and thatgets really exciting.
David Turetsky (26:48):
Do you see, though, where HR asks leaders to
try and grow and develop aroundthis, where they're met with a
why? Why do I need to change?
I'm okay, everything's goingfine. Or do you think we need to
effectively build the pipelineof leaders that gets it? Where
this, you know, forget aboutthis one, the next one will be
(27:13):
better!
Chris McAlister (27:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Great question. You know, Ithink more than it's about
people that are resistant togrowth or not. You always are
going to have those. Every team,every organization, we see it
every time. But you want tocreate a groundswell of momentum
with the majority who do want togrow. And the challenge isn't
actually in who wants to grow ornot. It's the effectiveness of
(27:37):
the training, because, likeHarvard and McKinsey both
roughly over 90% I think theyfound of leadership training
doesn't stick. Like you go tothe thing you get, the book, you
take, you go through the book,you take the notes, you put it
on your shelf. There's no realtransformed behavior. And I
think about it in terms of, likea trust fall. So like if my wife
(27:59):
and I were having a big conflictand a fight, we've been married
24 years this summer.
David Turetsky (28:07):
Oh congratulations.
Chris McAlister (28:08):
Oh, thank you.
If I put my hand on her shoulderand I said, Hey, you know what,
at work they do this thing whenwe have problems called a trust
fall. And I know you're reallymad at me that the garage isn't
cleaned, but I want to do atrust fall with you, and that is
going to make every problem wehave better! You know, well,
come on, I'm sleeping on thecouch, and I'm gonna have a sore
back the next day!
David Turetsky (28:30):
Well, I was gonna say you're in the
hospital, you mean!
Chris McAlister (28:32):
If I'm alive, yeah, I love it. That's awesome,
David. And so the idea for usis, how do you how do you do
training that isn't trying toput a tool in people's hands
they don't have the skill tolearn, nor the mindset to
sustain? And so what Harvard andMcKinsey found is like training
(28:54):
isn't doing enough at themindset level. And it's not
about hype, and it's not abouttrying to convince people of
something, that the door intothis is where is the insecurity
showing up under stress? That'swhere the greatest mindset work
can occur.
David Turetsky (29:07):
So instead of going to a training, getting a
book, having it sit on theshelf, and through osmosis, that
shelf and that head are so closetogether, it's gonna happen. Is
this really a psychologicalissue? Is this a and I mean that
not to say that they're sick,I'm saying that do they really
(29:28):
need to speak to someone who'smore of a psychologist or
organizational psychologist?
Shout out to Dr Dawn Nicholsonin the UK! Who really
understands the ins and outs andmaybe this is some work you do
as well, but maybe understandsthe in and outs of how the world
at work could work better, andhelps have that that leader, see
that lens and understand wherethey are versus where they need
(29:52):
to be?
Chris McAlister (29:55):
Love it.
David Turetsky (29:55):
Do you think it's, do you think it's a couch
issue, or is it, is it really ashelf issue?
Chris McAlister (29:59):
Yeah, yeah, when I was in college my
freshman year, that summer. SoI'm 46 now, sometimes I have to
google my age, I forget. My wifewould be proud I remembered it.
I had a concrete constructionjob, and I showed up first day
of the job, and I didn't grow upin handy man's house. They put a
16 pound sledge hammer in myhand, and we had to drive these
(30:21):
metal spikes into these frames.
So they put the sledgehammer inmy hand. Now I'm, you know, 18
years old. This is like 1995, Ididn't know then to say, Wait a
second, I haven't beenonboarded. I haven't been
trained. Where's HR? So they putthis sledgehammer in my hand. I
swing with all my might. There'sno way I'm gonna say that. I
don't know what I'm doing. And Imean, we're working. This isn't
(30:41):
practice. I missed the spike bymillimeters, almost miss
crushing this guy's hand. Eventhough I was in college at the
time, I heard the most creativecombination of the English
language I've ever heard. Thisguy went red, like toes to top
of head. Boom. Blew his, blewhis lid as they say.
David Turetsky (31:01):
Yeah
Chris McAlister (31:02):
And the way I would say it is this, they put a
tool in my hand I did not havethe skill to use. So I think the
couch is important. And I thinkthe couch as a place to graduate
from is critical. It's not aplace we stay forever.
David Turetsky (31:20):
Sure.
Chris McAlister (31:20):
Therapy doesn't have to be a dead end or a
label.
David Turetsky (31:23):
Right
Chris McAlister (31:23):
Instead, it is a place to get us from non
functioning to functioning.
We're dealing with situationswhere we're moving people from
functioning to high performing.
And so it it, you could say it'spsychological, but you could
also say it's philosophical, andit's all of these things. We
just talk about it in terms ofleadership, because that's the
(31:45):
easiest way to engage people ina non defensive way. Because
once you start having some ofthese other conversations, and
it's really laden with a lot oftherapeutic language, it frames
the conversation in a completelydifferent way, and it's more
unhelpful once you're doing itthat way. So we do it in terms
(32:07):
of becoming the best leader youcan be.
David Turetsky (32:10):
Now, by the way, because this section of the
podcast we talked about, whatcan the HR team do? By I think
good advice isn't to go intoyour CEO's office and say, I
think you need to shrink. Butwhat we're saying is, is that
there may be a need forunderstanding that need that
(32:32):
they may have, and trying tofind a way of getting it to them
better than sending them to acourse or sending them to a
book.
Chris McAlister (32:42):
Yeah. And I think that, yeah, thank you for
saying that. And I think a lotof people are going to go, Oh, I
know he's going to say, thenthey're going to need coaching,
right? Because he has a coachingbusiness. And I would stop the
conversation there and say, Youknow what, we step in
organizations all the time wherethe coach is really helping the
CEO feel enlightened aboutcrappy results, to revenue, to
engagement score, to the qualityof life people have. So so even
(33:05):
coaching isn't the answer, ifit's not coming at it from a
place of what are the resultsyou're getting? Are you doing
this for impact or validation?
David Turetsky (33:15):
Right I don't think I could say it any
better, and nor I think we canleave it at that, because I
don't know way to add to that,that that's brilliant, that's a
that's a mic drop moment. Don'tdo it. No, no, we don't want to
(33:38):
break your mic. Is thereanything else though, Chris,
that you'd like to end with?
Chris McAlister (33:43):
Yeah, you know, I think just to encourage
people, like, right now, if youcan just recognize one moment of
insecurity, that's a win. Like,when did you avoid having a
direct conversation? When didyou circle around the context of
an issue rather than beingdirect? When did you power up
and try to convince them ofsomething and kind of shut
something down that needed tooccur. Just notice the moment,
(34:05):
don't beat yourself up, becausethe ego really isn't the enemy.
Once you've framed it that way,then you're in a militaristic
way fighting your insecurities,and that's not how you transform
it. Instead, the ego is justgiving you the clue and the
signal to where you can grow anddevelop next.
David Turetsky (34:22):
Beautiful. Thank you so much, Chris. It's been a
pleasure to have you.
Chris McAlister (34:26):
Thanks for the honor to be here.
David Turetsky (34:27):
My pleasure, and thank you all for listening. And
don't forget, we're going to putall the links to where you can
find Chris's book and learn moreabout his company. Take care and
stay safe.
Announcer (34:38):
That was the HR Data Labs podcast. If you liked the
episode, please subscribe. Andif you know anyone that might
like to hear it, please send ittheir way. Thank you for joining
us this week, and stay tuned forour next episode. Stay safe.
The world of business is more complex than ever. The
world of human resources andcompensation is also getting
more complex. Welcome to the HRData Labs podcast, your direct
source for the latest trendsfrom experts inside and outside
the world of human resources.
Listen as we explore the impactthat compensation strategy, data
and people analytics can have onyour organization. This podcast
(00:24):
is sponsored by Salary.com, yoursource for data technology and
consulting for compensation andbeyond. Now here are your hosts,
David Turetsky and Dwight Brown.
David Turetsky (00:38):
Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs
podcast. I'm your host DavidTuretsky, and as always, we try
and find people inside andoutside the world of HR to give
you the latest on what'shappening and how it affects the
world of work. Today, we havewith us Chris McAlister. Chris,
how are you?
Chris McAlister (00:53):
Doing fantastic. It's Friday! I moved
one of my kids into her collegeapartment yesterday.
David Turetsky (00:59):
Oh, my goodness!
Chris McAlister (01:00):
yeah. Life is crazy.
David Turetsky (01:02):
Well, that means a lot of change,
Chris McAlister (01:05):
yes
David Turetsky (01:05):
and we'll talk about that. We're going to be
talking about a lot of change,but, but most especially about
leadership. But first before wedo, tell us a little bit about
yourself and tell us a littlebit about your company
SightShift!
Chris McAlister (01:16):
Yeah, so personally, just obsessed with
how leaders grow and developinto being a leader who develops
other leaders. And as thatobsession kind of grew out of
working with people and helpingthem, one day, friends were in
line, we started a company, andsince then, we've built coaching
processes and data measurementso that we can isolate that out
(01:40):
and help people with it!
David Turetsky (01:41):
Perfect. The people who listen to this
podcast love talk aboutmeasurement, and we're going to
get into a little bit today andeffectiveness of leadership, but
first, before I get to the onefun thing no one knows about,
you talk about your book alittle bit because you've got a
book out there that peopleshould be reading, right?
Chris McAlister (01:57):
Oh, thank you.
Yeah. So the newest book we justreleased, Lead for Impact, why
mindfulness, empathy andpsychological safety don't make
great leaders, and we wanted togive people a real way of
evaluating leadership that was atemplate, not temperament based.
So most leaders are evaluatingleadership based on temperament,
(02:18):
and it's the temperament thatthey most value. So if they're
extroverted and gregarious andthey lead like that, then
they'll hire out of theirinsecurities, build teams and
value leaders who lead likethat. Likewise, if they're data
focused and more logical andmore process oriented, the same
is true, and that's just anunfair way to evaluate leaders,
(02:42):
because we know it's more thantemperament, so we're trying to
offer a template, how to do that
David Turetsky (02:49):
So we're gonna put show notes in the show
regardless of personality.
notes, we're gonna put a link tothe book and to your company,
and everybody can go take a lookat it. But now, before we get
going, what's one fun thing thatno one knows about Chris
McAlister?
Chris McAlister (03:05):
That fun thing that no one knows about Chris
McAlister, and I'm admitting ithere on the podcast,
David Turetsky (03:12):
Breaking news!
Chris McAlister (03:14):
Breaking news.
As ambitious as I am with ourorganization, at home I'm a
complete like, I just want tostand and be a dad meme and
grill. It is the wildest thing,how something completely shifts
for me. And literally, myneighbor just recently asked me,
how's life? And I said, I'mstanding here in front of the
(03:37):
grill, and it's amazing. I don'teven know fully how to make
sense of that experience, butthat that's it for me.
David Turetsky (03:46):
You know what? I actually do know what you're
talking about. Because I openedthe grill for the first time
this summer. I opened up thegrill last weekend, and I
grilled corn and I grilledhamburgers and steak, and I was
in heaven.
Chris McAlister (03:59):
Dude, I get it.
David Turetsky (04:00):
It it was the food. It was the standing there,
it was the cleaning it. It waseverything was just so awesome.
Chris McAlister (04:08):
Isn't that wild? So literally, I think I'm
on my third propane tank sinceMemorial Day, so I'm not even
like an OG guy with charcoal,and I get why that's better or
smoking, I am normy to the core,I want a propane tank. It's
super easy, and I'm excited togrill. Maybe I could talk my
(04:28):
wife into it tonight.
David Turetsky (04:30):
Well, actually, you know what, Chris, there are
a lot of people, in fact thereare, I know there are podcasts
that do grilling, that talktotally about grilling.
Chris McAlister (04:36):
Oh, that's awesome,
David Turetsky (04:37):
That's not this podcast. But we could! We could,
we could start one right now.
Chris McAlister (04:40):
You can get me, you could get me going there.
David Turetsky (04:43):
So our topic for today is one that's quite
fascinating, and for those of usin leadership, we talk a lot
about what makes effectiveleaders, and we talk a lot about
how to grow effective leaders,how to how to foment leadership.
We're going to be talking todayabout are you leading for impact
or validation? And we're goingto talk about the motive of
(05:04):
leadership.
So my first question is, Chris,what's the problem with
leadership today?
Chris McAlister (05:19):
Oh, to tell this, yeah, to tell this, share
this, just from my ownexperience. Even sharing about
my daughter, my mind is goingthere. So the one that moved
out, I had this experience. Thiswas just a few months ago, maybe
four or five months ago, andbecause we do our own books, we
were able to actually put thisstory in the book, but. Um, I am
(05:43):
doing a meeting with a businessheadquartered out of China, and
I didn't have an office at homebecause I after COVID, you know,
we all kind of worked from homefor a while, but I couldn't do
it anymore. So anyway, I'm atthe house, we're having dinner,
and I realized I got to do thismeeting, because if you're going
to meet with a company in China,8am their time is 8pm your time,
(06:04):
you're going to build aroundtheir schedule. So I go into her
bedroom to do the meeting,because she's at work, and I
open up my, uh, my computer, andon the back of the camera, I see
the bed isn't made. And I think,Oh, I gotta make this look nice
at least. So I make her bed! NowI need to tell you, David, this
is a house I pay a mortgage infor. I pay the electric, I pay
the water, I pay her carinsurance and her cell phone.
(06:27):
And now I do this meeting, wentawesome. I'm feeling like a
champion. I go sit down in theliving room. I'm on the couch.
It's after nine. She gets homefrom work, she goes up to her
bedroom and she can see that herbed is made. And here's the text
I get from her, dad, next timeyou're going to use my room,
ask.
David Turetsky (06:47):
Oh, by the way, it's a text. It's not that she
didn't come downstairs. It was atext!
Chris McAlister (06:52):
It was a text, as only people who can
understand, who have been insome moments like this, I'm
paying for all these things.
Electricity started to form atthe center of the Earth's axis.
It starts shooting up throughall of the magma, Earth's core,
into my ankles.
David Turetsky (07:11):
Oh, my God
Chris McAlister (07:12):
Through my legs, through my hips. Without
thinking, David, I started topull the phone that has gotten
this text message into my hands,and I've got my thumbs ready to
fire back a text. Tell me usethe, whose room do you think it
really is? And I've got so manydumb moments that I've led in
such a dumb way out of my owninsecurities. And this just
(07:35):
thankfully was one of thosemoments where freeze frame. I
didn't send that text becauseshe has fought some incredible
battles. She's so bad to thebone. She's saving money,
pulling down a great GPA. I'm soproud of her. I would hate to
have in that moment, led her formy own validation. Don't you
(07:58):
appreciate all I'm doing? Tellme whose room it is?
David Turetsky (08:01):
Right?
Chris McAlister (08:01):
So I think, you know, for me, it's like that
story says so much about what wesee with the teams we work with,
where the CEO is coming in, andhe's not really directing the
attention of the organization ina long form way. She's not
really guiding them to strategicbrilliance. They're really
bringing in whatever is pingingtheir anxiety the most, and
(08:25):
they're starting to very subtlyor big ways, lead for their own
validation, not impact. How canthey get the insecurities they
have about themselves comfortedin some way? And there's a
million ways this plays out.
David Turetsky (08:39):
Wow, and that's a phenomenal example, too,
because I think all of us,whether it's at work or at home,
have kind of felt that way,right, the How dare you, or the
that moment of, you know, notstepping back and saying, yeah,
no, I can see their point, butin their own shoes, saying, What
(09:01):
is going on with this person,and now I'm going to set them
straight. And it probably takesa lot of willpower, a lot of
willpower to what's the wordshort circuit, the way in which
we're thinking about that. Sohow does a leader realize that
(09:23):
they're going through this? Howdo they focus on the things that
need to be done and not thethings that they, I guess, will
to be done or wish to be done?
Chris McAlister (09:34):
Paradoxically, and this is really, really
powerful in the data, and we seeit over and over and over. It's
it's not to to try to conform orcontort yourself to show up
different, but instead, it's tobe honest about what's showing
up so you don't need to do it,but like when you feel that
(09:56):
feeling and you want to say to ateam member, just shut up and do
what I'm telling you to do.
David Turetsky (10:01):
right
Chris McAlister (10:01):
Or or you've made me so uncertain about what
you've challenged and broughtup, I don't want to keep leading
this meeting. I want to go hideaway for a while so that I can
look like I know what I'mtalking about and I have what it
takes. So whether it's, youknow, more of an extreme
outgoing form of insecure forvalidation, or more of an inward
(10:23):
form. Either way, the answerisn't to try to like willpower,
your way white knuckle, your wayto change. It is instead to
learn to see the insecurity.
That's just step one. You justhave to see it, because after
you start to see it, the brainwill self organize new behavior,
and there's ways to acceleratethat. And this goes counter
(10:44):
intuitive to the way a lot ofpeople think about change. It's
that old parable that says, youknow, you've got this good wolf
and bad wolf within you. Feedthe Good Wolf, starve the bad
wolf. And what we're saying isactually, learn to pay attention
to what the bad wolf is hungryfor, feed it a better diet,
transform it, and then you'regoing to learn how to show up
(11:05):
differently.
David Turetsky (11:07):
But, but I guess one of the questions I'll ask is
which goes to the crux of thetopic, and the question, do
those leaders think of this as aproblem?
Chris McAlister (11:17):
Love that. And by the way, I love all the
questions, because the more thebrain is kind of even protesting
or disagreeing or working itout, that's how the mind is
making sense of things. So we weare not ideologically sensitive
or allergic to those, to thosechallenges, but yeah, the way
the brain is working it out isby just starting to see one
(11:39):
moment where under stress youdid not get the result you want.
So even if you're not really,really at a place where you can
acknowledge the insecurity or orfeel the ego's insecurity, all
we need you to do is to see onemoment under stress where you
did not get the result you want,because we're working with high
(12:02):
performing people, and highperforming leaders tend to make
mistakes in about 5% of the timethat cause them their greatest
harm in getting the results theywant. Now we want to talk about
the whole person and what itmeans to see them for who they
are and feelings and all thatgood stuff, but it has to anchor
(12:23):
itself in results.
David Turetsky (12:25):
So that 5% doesn't overcome the 95% of good
that they've done!
Chris McAlister (12:29):
Perfectly stated that like, we're trying
to shine a light on that, like,just, let's start the
conversation here, because that95% is gonna get washed out by
that 5% and we hear it all thetime.
Announcer (12:44):
Like what you hear so far? Make sure you never miss a
show by clicking subscribe. Thispodcast is made possible by
Salary.com. Now back to theshow.
David Turetsky (12:53):
So let's now switch gears a little bit and
talk about Okay, so now weunderstand the problem of
leaders being able to kind ofchallenge how they act and
react. How does this manifestinside companies today? What?
What does that leader have to doto either overcome it or, you
know, what is the effect of thaton the populace, on the company?
Chris McAlister (13:16):
Yeah, the first thing is just recognizing how
this shows up in theorganization. And it's, it's so
powerful when you start to graspthis, because you've got leaders
that are saying, Okay, well, theresult is, I'm not getting
heard. Okay, tell me what's notgetting heard. And they're so
quickly worried about the casethey're stating not being
(13:36):
appreciated. Well, already weknow, okay, that person is so
concerned, cliche but true aboutbeing understood, they don't get
understanding. So ask the CEOhow the meeting go? And she
goes. It was great! I made allmy points. Well, there was what
was said and what was heard andwhat was meant, and those are
three different things. Socommunication is one way. Change
(14:00):
is another how are we changingtoo much, too fast? Someone who
values innovation comes in witha new idea every month, or we're
resistant to change! Right? Onboth polarities of that, they're
changing too much, they're notgetting into execution and
excellence, or they're notchanging enough. So we see it in
(14:20):
communication. We see it inchange, and then we see it in
connection. People feel reduceddown. They don't feel seen,
heard and known. They wish theycould have a deeper relationship
with their boss, but that's nothappening. And we know the
saying, people leave the managermore than they leave the company
or their job.
David Turetsky (14:39):
Right. And if you go back to your earlier
point is, if you're measuringthis, what are the measurements
that we can really kind of lookat that will enable us to
understand how this manifests?
Chris McAlister (14:53):
Yeah, so we measure insecurity. We're
looking at where the specificinsecurity shows up. And we
don't compete with othermeasurement tools. We complement
them. So other measurement toolswill say, you know, this is how
you communicate, and this is howpeople should communicate with
you, right? And they say, Wecan't predict things. We can
(15:15):
just tell you what is. And we'resaying this is when you're
insecure how you need to becommunicated with. What if you
transform the insecurity so youcan actually be the kind of
leader who communicates withthem in the way they need right
communicated with? So we measurethe insecurity, we measure the
behavior, and we call it provingand hiding. So in what ways are
(15:39):
they leading for validation, toconvince and prove, or they're
leading for validation to hideand diminish, and that's a
number that we can track. Andthen we look at how are they
activated, in regards to what'shappening in their leadership
role currently? Are they veryoverwhelmed to achieve? Are they
(16:00):
ready for a lot of reinvention,or are they in a place where
they're kind of coasting? And wecan look at all that and see
who's in trouble, who's readyfor more? And it's really,
really powerful. We have a blastwith it, because once we show
them the data, then the weusually start with the
leadership team. People laughand cry, laugh at the hilarity
(16:22):
of how true it is, or there'ssome tears sometimes, because
this is making sense of things.
And of course, there's usuallysomebody who's like, yeah, yeah.
Sometimes you'll have, like, aCEO be like, Well, you've
described Sam perfectly. You'vedescribed Sue perfectly, but
this isn't me, and then theleadership team members are like
snickering.
David Turetsky (16:43):
Yeah, exactly
Chris McAlister (16:44):
Bill, that is totally you!
David Turetsky (16:46):
yeah.
Chris McAlister (16:47):
So data.
David Turetsky (16:48):
And data is good, but data can be
manipulated. And so I guess mynext question is, are you, you
know, do you, have validatedthese models? Do you, do you
really get I mean, not just withpeople, but like, have you done
benchmarking where you look athigher performing organizations
and say, you know, leaders whohave this profile with these
(17:10):
scores, they tend to communicatebetter, or they tend to have
trouble with change, orsomething like that?
Chris McAlister (17:19):
Yeah. So what we have is we build the data out
to what we call culture riskfactors. So when their
insecurities show up under theirstressed, insecure moments, it's
going to have blank impact onthe culture. And we define those
risk factors, they're not goingto get buy in. They're going to
(17:39):
burn people out, you know,they're gonna allow coups to
form. You know, whatever, wehave nine different risk
factors, and then we're lookingat those risk factors to say, in
your unique culture, theserepresent the greatest dangers
or threats to the goals you seekto accomplish, and that that
really is what lights us up,because we're trying to partner
(18:01):
with whatever is that goal orvision they have, what's going
to get in the way of that? Wewant to get that solved, and
that's a people issue, so thatthe people are ready for the
success they envision.
David Turetsky (18:14):
We're in a very, I guess you could say, highly
charged environment. We'rehighly charged from a political,
environmental, culturalperspective. We're charged on
even the DE&I world. Do you seepatterns in how these are
impacting how a leader has torespond, especially given the
(18:38):
fact that their organizations,they're not what they looked
like 20 years ago. They're verydifferent. We're living in a
very different world. Have youseen an evolution? Have you seen
trends on that?
Chris McAlister (18:48):
Yeah, this is awesome. We just put a piece out
on this, and it's probablygotten the most response of
anything recently. And the pieceis just around this idea that if
you're leading a large team now,there isn't any of these larger
affiliations in society whereyou can kind of group people in
(19:09):
big ways, and they know eachother and can somewhat get
along. Instead, it's this hyperfragmentation. And so the task
of leadership is challenging.
You now, especially leading alarge team, have so many
different ideologies andworldviews, and the
sophisticated, aware leaderunderstands this. Throughout the
(19:29):
course of human history, thishas always been the case.
Different ideologies on the teammake a more impactful, explosive
team, because it is all of theviewpoints that are different
that can focus into betterstrategy, innovation in
products, multiplying out intoenterprise value, codifying
(19:50):
things more intelligently withgreat systems, and just getting
the work done. So what'spowerful is for the leader
that's aware, this represents agreat moment in time to provide
great leadership. The hard partis this, a lot of the structures
that we've counted on to supportus, the worldview, the
institution, whatever, as thoseare breaking and people are
(20:13):
disappointed and let down andthere's a loss of trust, a
leader really has to be securein who they are to understand
people are working those thingsout. And if a healthy leader is
aware of this, then they keep itfrom two ditches. Ditch one
where there's too muchpontificating and we have to
have basically a giant therapysession, and everybody's idea
(20:35):
has to be validated. Or theother extreme, we think
everybody's getting along justbecause there's silence, when we
know that's not the case.
David Turetsky (20:46):
And you could imagine in a large global
company with lots of silos, butalso lots of matrices, that
becomes extremely complex to tryand figure out, because it
becomes almost a Rubik's cube ofa leader being a leader for one
side of the fate or one face ofthe cube? No, they have to be a
they have to be a leader for allthe faces. Even though they may
(21:08):
have subordinates that aredealing with one face at a time,
they still have to bring themall together, right?
Chris McAlister (21:13):
Absolutely. And it comes down to being this kind
of leader who leads for impact,not validation. So a leader
leading for validation is goingto ram a vision through and and
be disingenuous, even heartless,lacking compassion to the unique
suffering of others. On theother extreme, a leader who
(21:34):
leads for validation and notimpact is going to be too
passive and let all thecommittees of grievance that
need to form form, and then youhave 75 committees formed around
some certain grievance, and theydevelop a victim mindset, and it
ends up drawing energy andresources from the overall
mission and vision. And so thesetwo ditches are constantly
(21:56):
happening in organizations.
Yeah, well, andwhat you end up doing is, you
David Turetsky (21:57):
Well, I've definitely seen the second one,
where those ditches that arethat are distracting, you know,
the mob mentality of, you know,we have to fix this now, have
know, on one end, you get tonsof rules and policies, rather
kind of driven companies backcrap crazy because of something
that happened that may not havebeen a big thing, but have grown
than having effective systems.
And all these rules and policiesover time to mushroom, to become
something gigantic, and saps allthe energy. A couple of
(22:18):
companies I've worked at, we'vehad small issues that become,
have become gigantic issues. Imean, I think all of us can
think of an example in our pastthat where that's happened and
it just, it just distracts from,you know, the real needs of the
of the organization.
(22:49):
limit the health andeffectiveness of the
organization, because you have amillion pieces of red tape to
get through. And again, that's aculture risk factor, like we
know, the insecurity that aspecific leader profile has that
will tend to create lots ofpolicies. And what's so powerful
to me, and this is not pie inthe sky, this is not high this
(23:10):
is deep joy. Work could providea place for great transformation
that makes all of your lifebetter. We understand what's
happening right now culturallyis individuals very often are
making whatever is the mostpainful part of their identity,
the whole of their identity.
(23:31):
Right
Chris McAlister (23:32):
And so then they're they're on a crusade to
get that part validated. So it'snot just the CEO that has to
make this shift. It's not justthe executive team. It's
throughout the organization! I'mhere for impact, not my own
validation, which surfaces theneed to grow up, which is, I
think, a current challenge we'reseeing with organizations that
are hiring large pools ofespecially younger workers.
David Turetsky (23:54):
Right. And follow up to that question. So
do you see that differently inthe stage of growth of a company
or the industry of the company?
Chris McAlister (24:04):
Great question.
It all comes down to thespecific profile of a leader and
the executive team. Yes, thestage has something to do with
it. Is it a growth company? Youknow, is this a large
enterprise, fortune 100,whatever? But ultimately, we can
measure the leader and theexecutive team and know, because
it starts there, what is thedominating insecurity in that
(24:25):
specific organization.
David Turetsky (24:31):
Hey, are you listening to this and thinking
to yourself, Man, I wish I couldtalk to David about this. Well,
you're in luck. We have aspecial offer for listeners of
the HR Data Labs podcast, a freehalf hour call with me about any
of the topics we cover on thepodcast or whatever is on your
mind. Go toSalary.com/hrdlconsulting to
(24:53):
schedule your free 30 minutecall today.
So let's say you're an HRperson, you're listening to this
and you're saying, okay, Chris,what do I do about this? How can
we give them tools to be able towalk away from the podcast and
say, you know, you know, I heardChris. I'm gonna go read his
(25:13):
book. But, but what else can Ido that will cause impact and
help my leaders out tounderstand that it doesn't need
to be about validation.
Chris McAlister (25:23):
Yeah, I love that. And I'm thinking
specifically of your audiencehere, HR leaders and and they
have to know this, and we knowthis from the HR leaders we
interact with, that much of thenarrative in the HR world
without awareness is going toshape them. And I hate to put it
in a sports analogy, because I'mnot even a huge sports guy, but
(25:45):
it's simple to do. Will shapethem to play defense more than
offense. In other words, they'regoing to be naturally with, you
know, going to conferences andbreakouts, and they're going to
be hearing the bad things thatcan go wrong, and trying to
build policies that protect fromthese bad things, and we need
(26:07):
that! We just need the footforward from HR to be more about
offense. How do we help peoplegrow and develop? And and I
don't mean to make this, youknow, overly simple, but it does
come down to the mindset they'reengaging the role with. I'm not
here just in this HR leadershiprole to protect the organization
(26:30):
from harm on how bad it can go.
I'm also here, and if we needcan get that to at least 51% or
greater for how good it can get.
How can we have an atmospherethat helps people grow and
develop all they can, and thatgets really exciting.
David Turetsky (26:48):
Do you see, though, where HR asks leaders to
try and grow and develop aroundthis, where they're met with a
why? Why do I need to change?
I'm okay, everything's goingfine. Or do you think we need to
effectively build the pipelineof leaders that gets it? Where
this, you know, forget aboutthis one, the next one will be
(27:13):
better!
Chris McAlister (27:16):
Yeah, yeah.
Great question. You know, Ithink more than it's about
people that are resistant togrowth or not. You always are
going to have those. Every team,every organization, we see it
every time. But you want tocreate a groundswell of momentum
with the majority who do want togrow. And the challenge isn't
actually in who wants to grow ornot. It's the effectiveness of
(27:37):
the training, because, likeHarvard and McKinsey both
roughly over 90% I think theyfound of leadership training
doesn't stick. Like you go tothe thing you get, the book, you
take, you go through the book,you take the notes, you put it
on your shelf. There's no realtransformed behavior. And I
think about it in terms of, likea trust fall. So like if my wife
(27:59):
and I were having a big conflictand a fight, we've been married
24 years this summer.
David Turetsky (28:07):
Oh congratulations.
Chris McAlister (28:08):
Oh, thank you.
If I put my hand on her shoulderand I said, Hey, you know what,
at work they do this thing whenwe have problems called a trust
fall. And I know you're reallymad at me that the garage isn't
cleaned, but I want to do atrust fall with you, and that is
going to make every problem wehave better! You know, well,
come on, I'm sleeping on thecouch, and I'm gonna have a sore
back the next day!
David Turetsky (28:30):
Well, I was gonna say you're in the
hospital, you mean!
Chris McAlister (28:32):
If I'm alive, yeah, I love it. That's awesome,
David. And so the idea for usis, how do you how do you do
training that isn't trying toput a tool in people's hands
they don't have the skill tolearn, nor the mindset to
sustain? And so what Harvard andMcKinsey found is like training
(28:54):
isn't doing enough at themindset level. And it's not
about hype, and it's not abouttrying to convince people of
something, that the door intothis is where is the insecurity
showing up under stress? That'swhere the greatest mindset work
can occur.
David Turetsky (29:07):
So instead of going to a training, getting a
book, having it sit on theshelf, and through osmosis, that
shelf and that head are so closetogether, it's gonna happen. Is
this really a psychologicalissue? Is this a and I mean that
not to say that they're sick,I'm saying that do they really
(29:28):
need to speak to someone who'smore of a psychologist or
organizational psychologist?
Shout out to Dr Dawn Nicholsonin the UK! Who really
understands the ins and outs andmaybe this is some work you do
as well, but maybe understandsthe in and outs of how the world
at work could work better, andhelps have that that leader, see
that lens and understand wherethey are versus where they need
(29:52):
to be?
Chris McAlister (29:55):
Love it.
David Turetsky (29:55):
Do you think it's, do you think it's a couch
issue, or is it, is it really ashelf issue?
Chris McAlister (29:59):
Yeah, yeah, when I was in college my
freshman year, that summer. SoI'm 46 now, sometimes I have to
google my age, I forget. My wifewould be proud I remembered it.
I had a concrete constructionjob, and I showed up first day
of the job, and I didn't grow upin handy man's house. They put a
16 pound sledge hammer in myhand, and we had to drive these
(30:21):
metal spikes into these frames.
So they put the sledgehammer inmy hand. Now I'm, you know, 18
years old. This is like 1995, Ididn't know then to say, Wait a
second, I haven't beenonboarded. I haven't been
trained. Where's HR? So they putthis sledgehammer in my hand. I
swing with all my might. There'sno way I'm gonna say that. I
don't know what I'm doing. And Imean, we're working. This isn't
(30:41):
practice. I missed the spike bymillimeters, almost miss
crushing this guy's hand. Eventhough I was in college at the
time, I heard the most creativecombination of the English
language I've ever heard. Thisguy went red, like toes to top
of head. Boom. Blew his, blewhis lid as they say.
David Turetsky (31:01):
Yeah
Chris McAlister (31:02):
And the way I would say it is this, they put a
tool in my hand I did not havethe skill to use. So I think the
couch is important. And I thinkthe couch as a place to graduate
from is critical. It's not aplace we stay forever.
David Turetsky (31:20):
Sure.
Chris McAlister (31:20):
Therapy doesn't have to be a dead end or a
label.
David Turetsky (31:23):
Right
Chris McAlister (31:23):
Instead, it is a place to get us from non
functioning to functioning.
We're dealing with situationswhere we're moving people from
functioning to high performing.
And so it it, you could say it'spsychological, but you could
also say it's philosophical, andit's all of these things. We
just talk about it in terms ofleadership, because that's the
(31:45):
easiest way to engage people ina non defensive way. Because
once you start having some ofthese other conversations, and
it's really laden with a lot oftherapeutic language, it frames
the conversation in a completelydifferent way, and it's more
unhelpful once you're doing itthat way. So we do it in terms
(32:07):
of becoming the best leader youcan be.
David Turetsky (32:10):
Now, by the way, because this section of the
podcast we talked about, whatcan the HR team do? By I think
good advice isn't to go intoyour CEO's office and say, I
think you need to shrink. Butwhat we're saying is, is that
there may be a need forunderstanding that need that
(32:32):
they may have, and trying tofind a way of getting it to them
better than sending them to acourse or sending them to a
book.
Chris McAlister (32:42):
Yeah. And I think that, yeah, thank you for
saying that. And I think a lotof people are going to go, Oh, I
know he's going to say, thenthey're going to need coaching,
right? Because he has a coachingbusiness. And I would stop the
conversation there and say, Youknow what, we step in
organizations all the time wherethe coach is really helping the
CEO feel enlightened aboutcrappy results, to revenue, to
engagement score, to the qualityof life people have. So so even
(33:05):
coaching isn't the answer, ifit's not coming at it from a
place of what are the resultsyou're getting? Are you doing
this for impact or validation?
David Turetsky (33:15):
Right I don't think I could say it any
better, and nor I think we canleave it at that, because I
don't know way to add to that,that that's brilliant, that's a
that's a mic drop moment. Don'tdo it. No, no, we don't want to
(33:38):
break your mic. Is thereanything else though, Chris,
that you'd like to end with?
Chris McAlister (33:43):
Yeah, you know, I think just to encourage
people, like, right now, if youcan just recognize one moment of
insecurity, that's a win. Like,when did you avoid having a
direct conversation? When didyou circle around the context of
an issue rather than beingdirect? When did you power up
and try to convince them ofsomething and kind of shut
something down that needed tooccur. Just notice the moment,
(34:05):
don't beat yourself up, becausethe ego really isn't the enemy.
Once you've framed it that way,then you're in a militaristic
way fighting your insecurities,and that's not how you transform
it. Instead, the ego is justgiving you the clue and the
signal to where you can grow anddevelop next.
David Turetsky (34:22):
Beautiful. Thank you so much, Chris. It's been a
pleasure to have you.
Chris McAlister (34:26):
Thanks for the honor to be here.
David Turetsky (34:27):
My pleasure, and thank you all for listening. And
don't forget, we're going to putall the links to where you can
find Chris's book and learn moreabout his company. Take care and
stay safe.
Announcer (34:38):
That was the HR Data Labs podcast. If you liked the
episode, please subscribe. Andif you know anyone that might
like to hear it, please send ittheir way. Thank you for joining
us this week, and stay tuned forour next episode. Stay safe.
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