April 24, 2025 • 42 mins
Christopher “CJ” Gross, CEO of Jabbar HR Solutions, CEO and Founder of Ascension Worldwide, and author, joins us this episode to discuss key takeaways from his book, What’s Your ZIP Code Story? CJ shares how our backgrounds shape workplace interactions, techniques for navigating difficult conversations, and practical approaches to addressing class bias in professional settings.
[0:00] Introduction
- Welcome, CJ!
- Today’s Topic: Understanding and Overcoming Class Bias in the Workplace
[6:55] What inspired CJ to write his book?
- Where to begin when discussing class in the workplace
- Understanding that it’s human to develop biases
[19:26] Where did CJ start the journey to write his book?
- The power of conversations that stems from curiosity
- Exploring the dualities within people
[31:39] How do you navigate difficult conversations with people who share opposing opinions?
- How to engage productively with people who hold opposing opinions
- Why face-to-face conversations build trust in ways digital communication cannot
[41:18] Closing
- Thanks for listening!
Connect with CJ:
Connect with David:
Connect with Dwight:
Podcast Team
Produced by Afogato Media
Quick Quote
“If we’re not able to share [our stories] without fear of retaliation, then we don’t have an environment where we can have dialogue. When that happens, people will use power to protect themselves.”
For more HR Data Labs®, enjoy the HR Data Labs Brown Bag Lunch Hours every Friday at 2:00PM-2:30PM EST. Check it out here: https://hrdatalabs.com/brown-bag-lunch/
To schedule a meeting with us: https://salary.com/hrdlconsulting
For more HR Data Labs®, enjoy the HR Data Labs Brown Bag Lunch Hours every Friday at 2:00PM-2:30PM EST. Check it out here: https://hrdatalabs.com/brown-bag-lunch/
Produced by Affogato Media
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Announcer (00:01):
The world of business is more complex than ever. The
world of human resources andcompensation is also getting
more complex. Welcome to the HRdata labs podcast, your direct
source for the latest trendsfrom experts inside and outside
the world of human resources.
Listen as we explore the impactthat compensation strategy, data
and people analytics can have onyour organization. This podcast
(00:29):
is sponsored by salary.com Yoursource for data technology and
consulting for compensation andbeyond. Now here are your hosts,
David Turetsky and Dwight Brown.
David Turetsky (00:38):
Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs
podcast. I'm your host. DavidTuretsky, alongside my friend,
co host, partner in crime.
Dwight Brown from salary.com,Dwight, how are you
Dwight Brown (00:47):
Mostly partner in crime? But we want to talk about
those. Yeah, statute oflimitations, Yeah, I'm good. How
are you doing today?
David Turetsky (00:55):
I'm okay. It's actually beautiful here. It's
not freezing cold in my office.
So I'm good, nice. But you knowwhy I'm better?
Dwight Brown (01:02):
Why is that?
David Turetsky (01:03):
We have a brilliant guest with us. His
name is Christopher. CJ, gross.
CJ, welcome to the HR DataLabs podcast.
CJ Gross (01:10):
Thank you. David and Dwight I appreciate it? And I
mean, I'm excited to be here.
I've been waiting for this.
David Turetsky (01:15):
Yeah, we've been excited too. CJ, tell us a
little bit about you
CJ Gross (01:19):
Sure. So I am a business management consultant.
I have two companies since I'vetalked to you last so I have the
ascension worldwide, which dealswith, you know, culture work
within organizations. And Irecently have launched Jabbar HR
(01:39):
solutions that deals with allthings. HR, awesome. I will say
a little bit about mybackground. I come from the the
industry of engineering. I was amechanical designer for General
Electric many, many moons ago.
(02:01):
And I, you know, was exposed tosix sigma process improvement.
Tell people, I'm a black beltSix Sigma and I know karate,
both are there
David Turetsky (02:08):
you go, there you go. Both
Dwight Brown (02:10):
are true. Point I'm tired.
CJ Gross (02:14):
Yeah, both are true.
But the reason why that'simportant is because it informs
the work, the work that I do inorganizations. And we can talk a
little, you know, we'll that.
I'm sure that will come out aswe discuss. And then, you know,
most of my work have has been inthe leadership realm, the OD
realm, and then more recently,when I say recently, within the
(02:37):
last six years, you know, thelot around the DEI work. Now, I
know that's why it'squestionable now, but that that
happened, and then also, youknow, lots of recruiting and the
leadership development spanningover the last 20 years. So
that's me!
David Turetsky (02:57):
but, what you didn't mention is that you're
also a published author as well.
CJ Gross (03:03):
Oh, yeah, about that?
I am. I am the author of what'syour zip code story,
understanding and overcomingclass bias in the workplace. And
yeah, that's what we're here totalk about. So yeah.
David Turetsky (03:21):
Yes we will, but before we do that, we always ask
our guests, what's one fun thingthat no one knows about CJ.
CJ Gross (03:31):
I tell a lot about myself, so I don't know if it's
something that no one knows. Iwould have to dig really deep.
You got to dig deep because I'ma very transparent speaker, so
people know a lot, but you knowwhat I will say, some people
don't know I have a couple ofthings, but some people don't
know that I'm, I'm I motocross.
(03:53):
Oh, oh yeah, I motocross. Andwhat that actually means to be
very specific. So I did rideactual motocross, the big jumps
and all that, after the eight to40. I just wanted to make that
very
David Turetsky (04:03):
I didn't get into a lot of padding. You had a
CJ Gross (04:05):
Usually people stop around and, you know, maybe they
lot ofstop in their 30s or something.
I had a coach, right? And so thecoach was like, you know, if you
could do anything in the world,what would you? And I was like,
Ah, man, I love motocross. Iwould do motocross. We couldn't
afford it when I was younger.
And blah, blah, blah. And shewas like, Well, what's stopping
you? And I was like, I don'tknow. Then. And then I got off
the call and told my wife, I'mgonna ride motocross. She
(04:26):
goes,No, no, right? Motocrossfor like, a year. And then I was
like, This is dangerous. And soI shifted to so I still had a
motocross bike, but I shiftedthe trail ride, and yeah,
David Turetsky (04:42):
which is a lot less dangerous, by the way.
Actually, it's dangerous,
CJ Gross (04:46):
Dangerous, but it's no more than walking across the
street right
David Turetsky (04:49):
exactly
CJ Gross (04:50):
when you're riding on the trails. I mean, you control
the speed. You're not racing.
You're Not You don't have to dowheelies, you know, you don't
have right. You might hit atree, but that's when you right.
That's, that's. It's on you,that's on you, that's not
David Turetsky (05:02):
literally on you.
CJ Gross (05:05):
So, yeah,
Dwight Brown (05:06):
so that's your own damn fault.
CJ Gross (05:08):
Yeah, that tree was minding his own business. It had
nothing to do with you. Youdrove into that tree, right? So
that's a little known fact aboutme, all right?
Dwight Brown (05:16):
Poor tree
David Turetsky (05:17):
that reminds me to joke, what's the last thing
that goes through a mosquito'smind before it passes away. Oh
God, when it hits yourwindshield, yeah, it's
buttocks!
CJ Gross (05:29):
Buttocks,
David Turetsky (05:30):
yeah, it's the last thing that goes through its
mind, buttocks. It's tush, it'sglass, it's
Dwight Brown (05:39):
we're trying to keep it from being explicit.
CJ Gross (05:42):
Oh, sorry, yeah,
David Turetsky (05:45):
sorry, sorry, it's a father joke, a dad joke.
So, oh, my god, yeah, my kids dothe exact same thing. They go,
what? What are you saying? I wasthinking about. You're hitting a
tree, right? Well, you're Yeah,anyway, okay, so see when you
(06:07):
have to explain the joke toeverybody out there, but you
have to explain the joke, it's
CJ Gross (06:11):
As long as we laugh.
That's the whole point, right?
Yeah,
David Turetsky (06:14):
exactly, which is totally fine, by the way.
Yeah, right. So we're here totalk about our topic for today,
not talking about jokes. Ourtopic for today is talking about
your book. What's your zip codestory, which is fascinating. And
what we want to try and talkabout is the context of today,
because the book came out in 22Correct,
CJ Gross (06:35):
correct.
David Turetsky (06:36):
Well, the world has changed dramatically since
2022 if we can believe it,that's not really even three
years ago. And so what we'regoing to do is we're going to
explore what's your zip codestory,
CJ Gross (06:47):
sure.
David Turetsky (06:56):
So CJ, let's talk a little bit about what's
your zip code story. What reallyinspired you to write this book.
So
CJ Gross (07:02):
David, what's interesting is when people ask
me that question, I alwayswanted them to know that I did
not want to write this book,right? I did not want to go
through the labor of writinganother book, going through the
process of publishing andmarketing and all those things.
But what I saw like I said inthe intro, I was doing work in
(07:23):
the diversity kind of area, andthere were things that were not
being addressed. And part ofthat was I was made aware of
that when I had a conversationwith a gentleman. His name was
Rob, and he was a gay AfricanAmerican man, and he was a
(07:47):
little bit older than me, and Ihad a story in my head about
him, as we often do when we talkto people. Okay, so he's gay and
he's older, so he's experiencedmore racism and homophobia,
right? And so I was thinking,oh, man, his life is probably
he's gonna tell me somethingthat's, you know, all these
hurdles. And he did. But what hesaid was, which was shocking to
(08:08):
me, he said he's talking aboutbeing excluded. And I was like,
Yeah, being excluded. Yeah, thathappens. And he talks about
being excluded from the countryclub. And I was like, well,
that's not my story. We werejust worried about getting into
the YMCA. And so, yeah, hetalked about having a mentor,
yeah, and mentors. His mentorwas Maya Angelou. I was like,
whoa, wow. I said, your story
David Turetsky (08:31):
drops that name,
CJ Gross (08:32):
yeah, your story, yes, you experience racism, you
experience exclusion, youexperience all those things, but
at a different level, right?
Exactly? I was like, that'ssomething that we're not really
dealing with, which is, youknow, at the time, I was like,
Well, what is this thing? Right,similar, but not the same. And
so from there, I read a articleby Joan C Williams, one of she's
(08:58):
one of the Harvard BusinessReview contributors as one of
the most read contributors tothe Harvard Business Review, and
the article, I believe, wascalled Why class should be a
part of your DEI conversation,or something like that, right?
And she wrote a book called TheWorking white class. And all of
(09:22):
this is correlated, right? Sothis is very interesting. All of
this is correlated with the workor the book that are now sitting
Vice President, JD Vance, hisbook, Hillbilly Eligy, right,
which is about social class,right? So, full circle there. So
it doesn't matter what your yourbackground. We're all
experiencing this, thisexperience around class and how
(09:43):
people will judge us based onwhere we're from and how we grew
up. And so I did, then a aworking kind of a brag back bra.
I did a working brown bag kindof Lunch and Learn for the
company that I was working for,just to see how it would land.
(10:07):
And people were amazed. Theynever thought about not just
where they grew up, but how theygrew up. And it started a
dialog, right, this germinationof ideas and concepts. And then
I submitted to the Society forHuman Resource Management annual
conference, and it got pickedup. And so that was in 2019 and
so from there, I knew it wassomething, and that's from
there, you know, the rest ishistory, as they say, you know,
(10:30):
on to the on to the developmentof the concepts and interviewing
people. So that's I wrote thebook, not because I wanted to,
because I thought there was agap in the work that we were
doing around culture work.
David Turetsky (10:44):
But this, this happens every day, though, yeah,
when we have social interactionsand we make our judgments based
on what we see in front of us,you know, they say, you know,
first impressions, you know,tell a lot about you, or you
make you, make you, makesomeone's mind up about you in
that first impression,
CJ Gross (11:03):
absolutely.
David Turetsky (11:04):
And when it comes to class, it's very easy
in some ways, and it's verydifficult in others to make
those judgments, but we do itevery time, every day, good and
bad. Like you said, you weremeeting this African American
gentleman who was gay, and youhad a conception and in your
head about about him, and thenit blew you away that Maya
(11:24):
Angelou was one of his mentors.
I mean, it blew me away. I don'teven know, because, you know,
she was such a rock star, andshe was so important in our
world, right? So when you satdown to write this, did you, you
know it's trying to, but it'salmost like trying to solve for
for world peace when you open upthis kind of Pandora's box,
(11:46):
because it is kind of all theworld's evils in those in
dealing with class. Is itsomething that you tried to say,
let's at least start the dialog?
Or was it a, Hey, I think I havesomething. I have an idea about
how we might be able to addressthis, which was the were you
(12:07):
swing for the fences like abaseball analogy, or were you
just trying to get a single?
Well,
CJ Gross (12:12):
I think a little bit of both probably was the was the
challenge with writing the book,because it was so much to cover.
Yeah, when you start talking, Iinterview people like telling me
about your zip code story, andthere was one thought that I
had. It's like, oh, here's, youknow, probably what's happening.
But there's so many things thatinform someone's life. It's not
just where you grew up in it,and we tend to put people into
that category. You know, if yougrew up in Beverly, Beverly
(12:34):
Hills, or you grew upinternationally, or you were in
certain parts of the world,especially if you know that zip
code story, or that zip code,you go, Oh, you're from there.
Oh, right? Yeah, wow,yeah, every city is bad, right?
David Turetsky (12:43):
exactly, And so it was me just trying to
highlight the back drop of thesestories and what they mean to
us, and then also trying to helppeople understand, number one,
you're not a bad person becauseyou do this. Because your brain
(13:03):
puts people into categoriesbased on people, places and
things. I call it classificationinstead of social class
classification, right? Thatsounds a little bit more
technical, and that's what yourbrain is doing. We do this when
it comes to anything that wepurchase. So, for example, my
neighbors, so they don't know myneighbors, we're a big dog
(13:25):
community, right?
Sure.
CJ Gross (13:28):
And people do, they want to know what kind of dog do
you have, right? And they thenkeep together how much you may
have paid for your dog based onwhether it's mixed or not. You
know all those different things,right, right? And you can tell
the direction of theconversation. So something as
simple as, you know, what kindof dog do you have? Can create a
story about this person, andobviously, kind of car you
(13:48):
drive. And then when you go tothese networking events, getting
back to work related things,it's like, What school did you
go to?
David Turetsky (13:55):
Right,
CJ Gross (13:56):
And then you can see on people's faces their
Dwight Brown (13:56):
right.
response, you know, if you sayyou went to, I was making a
joke, that's it. When you sayHarvard, it's almost like you
now, I have almost a Britishaccent, because you need to be,
especially if, especially if theparents say, oh my, my child
studying at Harvard or school,school you never heard of. It's
(14:19):
really quick. They don't, youknow, and a breeze over it.
CJ Gross (14:23):
And then, right, we do. And sometimes it's not
intentional, it's just thesocial contracts that we've made
in our society that have beencreated. And we all kind of play
our role. And it's just assimple as fish not knowing
they're in water. We don't knowthat we do this, but we do it
all the time. To your point,
Dwight Brown (14:42):
yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's almost an
automatic reflex and, like, sayit's not a negative reflection.
It's, I mean, it's an innatething. We in order to survive,
we have to make firstimpressions. And so I think that
the. Uh, you know, the fact thatwe do it really is much deeper
(15:04):
than just sort of that surfacelevel. You're judgmental or
you're not judgmental, kind ofthing
CJ Gross (15:09):
in this world that we live in now, it is very
challenging to try to do whetheryou're trying to do this work,
you're a leader and manager, andyou're leading different people
from different backgrounds, yourHR, professional, and you're
dealing with all of thesethings, it's we like to put
people in the categories. You'rea good person, you're a bad
person. However, when we werehunter and gather society, we
(15:33):
use this kind of thinking,right? Our brain made these
decisions so to make sure thatwhen we when we went to go find
dinner, that we didn't becomedinner right right now we're
longer living in those thosetimes our brain is still
functioning the same, but now wehave vilified people for being
human. Now that doesn't letpeople off the hook for saying
egregious things. However, if westart from the basis that we are
(15:58):
all operating on our reptilianbrain, and when we go whether we
can go to the grocery store, andwe judge that person for having
too many coupons,
David Turetsky (16:09):
that's my mother.
CJ Gross (16:10):
More like I'm out, I can't do it, I you know, or we
are sitting on a board for anorganization, and we're trying
to decide who should be thenext, the succession planning
for the next, whether it's a CEOor Executive Director or
(16:31):
president. And we're literally,I just got, I literally just got
off a board meeting, and we'reliterally saying to ourselves, I
noticed this one little thingabout this person, and I wonder,
does that me make them a betterleader or not so much a better
leader? And none of these thingsare, you know, based on research
or any of those things. It'sbased on, you know, I didn't
(16:53):
like they had glasses on withthose corn room. I don't just
not sure that would make a goodleader. Or, yeah, they put a lot
of salt. They put a lot of salton there,
David Turetsky (17:03):
and they didn't taste it first.
CJ Gross (17:05):
Yeah, they didn't taste that's gotta mean
something. That's gotta meansomething. So I think that's the
I wanted to highlight that partof what Dwight just said it's
important.
David Turetsky (17:14):
But to your point, some of this is learned
and some of this is trained,right? Like, to that last point
you made, my grandfather toldme, never put salt, especially
in a business meeting. Never putsalt on something unless you try
it first. So you're showing tothe person that you're with that
you're willing to do theresearch, you're willing to go
the next step to make sure thatwhat you're doing made sense.
(17:37):
And I'm gonna get the pointscoming to Dwight's point, when
you were talking about, youknow, the reptilian brain, what
I was thinking is, wheneverwe're doing that, whenever we're
going on line in thatsupermarket, our brain does
that. Is this person going to beuseful to me? Are they going to
stand in my way? Right? Are theygoing to be a good teammate,
(17:58):
like you said, you know, when wego to hunt, are they going to be
good, or are they going to putus in jeopardy? And it's almost
like watching an episode of TheWalking Dead, right? You come
upon new people who survived,and you go, Hmm, are they going
to try and kill me? Are theygoing to try and, you know, chop
me up and make me into bait? Arethey going to what are we? So we
make those decisions in a splitsecond, and it's just something
(18:20):
innate. But I think what we'rewhat we need to talk about is,
how do you make sure that whatyou're doing makes sense, given
where we are in our environmenttoday?
CJ Gross (18:31):
Well, David, one, one thing I want to highlight to
your, to your point that youwere making about the Dwight
point, which is duality. Yeah.
So our brains need to consider,or we need to consider that
duality also exists, right? So,yes, I could put salt on
everything on my plate, becausethat's how I grew up. But does
that exclude me from being awizard when it comes to numbers
(18:55):
or IT, or project management orengineering, or any of those
things, right? So I think wehave meshed those two together.
Brain said one thing, one plusone equals two, whereas there's
duality. Both things can exist.
So I just wanted to highlightthat,
Announcer (19:16):
Like what you hear so far. Make sure you never miss a
show by clicking subscribe. Thispodcast is made possible by
Salary.com now, back to theshow.
David Turetsky (19:26):
Well, our next topic, or our next question for
you around our topic, is whenyou were writing the book and
you were doing your researchabout this, you know, where did
you start? Did you dointerviews? Did you do
quantitative metrics to to tofigure this out.
CJ Gross (19:43):
What I tried to do was think about my own experience
first, right? So the so part ofthe book is the backdrop of the
book is my experience. But thenI was like, Okay, so my
experience is not everyexperience, right? So this is
the middle class upbringing. Uh,in the 1970s and 80s, from a
(20:03):
predominantly African Americancommunity right outside of
Washington, DC. And I was like,Well, what other stories exist?
So I found someone who grew upin an Appalachian Community who
identified with being a whitewoman and Christian Right,
Christian values. I foundsomeone who grew up in an inner
city and went to HBCU, but alsothen went to Harvard as a law
(20:23):
student. I found someone whogrew up in the UK, but also went
to boarding school and kind ofhad a different experience as
well, right? So I wanted to mixit up. Got someone who was from
a different part of Asia, andtook those stories, interviewed
those individuals with aframework of class biases,
(20:46):
right? There were eightdifferent class biases that we
found, and those class biaseskind of directed my conversation
and interview style with them,so it was a little bit of
qualitative and quantitative.
And we also did secondaryresearch as well to find out
what the concepts existed outthere.
David Turetsky (21:03):
When you went through the interviews, did you
make sure that you were tryingto not only get the appropriate
samples, but also making surethat all the environment that
you're recording in the well therecording itself? Did you make
sure that you were trying tokeep everything else held equal,
so that it was kind of a similarexperience across the board,
(21:24):
meaning you didn't take one outto a very expensive restaurant,
the other one out to, I don'tknow, a McDonald's to have the
conversation.
CJ Gross (21:32):
That's a great question. And so all of the
interviews were done via zoomnumber one, and unfortunately,
it couldn't be as equal, becausesome people were in different
countries, and we were able tointerview with them. There's a
woman from India that weinterviewed, and that interview
was very interesting, because Ihad to try to mitigate my bias
(21:55):
as I interview people for thebook.
David Turetsky (21:57):
Yeah.
CJ Gross (21:57):
So the woman from India, the woman from India. My
experience with people from thatcountry was different at the
time, and I automatically puther in a category, that she grew
up struggling, that she grew up,you know, with the challenges
that I that I've heard about orseen from other colleagues or in
movies by Kent Richard, right?
(22:20):
And it wasn't that at all. Shegrew up very wealthy. It wasn't
about exclusion. She grew aroundother people who were who were
also Indian, and her biggestissue was gender. It wasn't, you
know, those other things that Iwas I was putting my own biases
overlay of right conversation.
And she said, You know, when shewent to school, her biggest
issue was going to school as awoman in a male dominated not
(22:45):
only environment, but also womenin from her perspective and her
religion, women went to schoolto find a husband, whereas men
went to school to find a career,
David Turetsky (22:54):
right,
Dwight Brown (22:54):
right?
CJ Gross (22:55):
And my, my kind of American lens, was like, at
least you're going to school.
But that was like, Well, wait aminute, you're missing the
point, because I'm in adifferent place again, the zip
code, our zip code stories, evenin the interview, were
colliding, and I had to do extrawork that that thinking,
David Turetsky (23:14):
yeah,
Dwight Brown (23:15):
it is always interesting to me, as I you
know, when I observe myselfthinking about those first
impressions that you talkedabout. We we write the story in
our head within a five secondtime frame, and then when you do
start to get to know someone,how differently you look at
(23:35):
them, and it's you know, and thepoint that you bring up is sort
of that realization of realizingthat you have a bias that you're
applying to it. That's a that'salmost a skill. It's, it's
learned, and some people learnat different levels. I think,
CJ Gross (23:53):
I think it's, I think it's more of an art, because
cognitively, you know, cerebrallooking from a cerebral
perspective, this all makessense, but as leaders in
organization, especially rightnow, and I think this is, this
is the challenge, and this is, Ithink, partially paved, the road
to get to where, where we are asa country right now is that we
(24:16):
didn't have Enough leaders withdifferent, diverse backgrounds
who could be transparent andvulnerable about, you know what?
I do have a bias against thiscertain type of person, because
that's taboo now, if we can bevery honest and fair in the
last, you know, three to fouryears, if you are a white man,
(24:37):
it was hard for you to say, Ihave a bias against someone who
is a person of color forwhatever reason, and not being
able to have that conversationand being able to be
transparent, and it's somewhatof a safe environment to say,
and now let's talk about it hascaused some of the challenges,
because in order to do thiswork, you have to be
transparent. One of my coachessaid you can't take people when
you're not willing to goyourself, or where you've never
(24:58):
been yourself, and that is. Thenyou have powerful experiences.
But if we exclude people of acertain background, no matter
what, whether you're margin, youknow it's marginalized or
historically marginalized orminority majority, it doesn't
matter. We all have a zip codestory, and we're not able to
share that without fear ofretaliation, and whether that's
(25:19):
being canceled or not beinggetting promoted, then we don't
have an environment where we canhave dialog. And when that
happens, people will use powerto protect themselves,
David Turetsky (25:30):
and I'm going to be the one who says, and now we
have those people who are sayingwhat they're thinking, and it's
scary as F
Dwight Brown (25:40):
Yeah,
David Turetsky (25:40):
and they just, they don't care. They're saying
the things that they werethinking before, right? And so
now we know exactly what they'rethinking. And it is really
scary, like there are too manyimmigrants in this country, and
people of color shouldn't begetting short chosen for these
promotions, or shouldn't behired, or we're gonna blame them
(26:02):
for planes crashing, even thoughwe don't know any of the story
about why the plane crashed,we're gonna blame other people
who aren't white or who aren'tmen, white men who weren't at
the controls of those planes.
That's the reason why thosethings happened. They're
literally saying this stuff outloud, and we know that they were
(26:26):
thinking it before. CJ, right.
We knew it because, you knowthey were who they were, but now
they're they're feelingempowered to say it now, which,
to me, is partially good,because now I know exactly what
they're thinking, and partiallyI'm freaking out because now I
know what they're thinking, andthey're the ones who are in
power, and they're the ones whoare setting policy, and they're
(26:48):
the ones who are leading ourcountry, not just the president,
but everybody else now who arerunning our government. Feel
this way.
CJ Gross (26:56):
I think what the challenge is, is to have people
share those thoughts in a safeenvironment, before we have this
pendulum swing of power, peopleare emboldened to say things
when, as human beings, we are,we are we? If we have power, we
(27:18):
feel like we can share, we cansay, but we want the power to be
distributed in a way where wedon't need to cause the demise
of someone else for us to sharea perspective of how we think.
Now, what's healthy about thatis, if someone said that to you,
right? So let's say, forexample, someone said, I don't
(27:38):
think that there's too manyminorities or not. Well, there's
too many immigrants and in thiscountry and minorities are too
sensitive, and they have toomany diversity hires and
companies and organizations,that person will be canceled
within the last you know, if youwere said, that was said in the
last five years or post thiselection, right? We know this to
(27:58):
be true because we saw it, butyet it still existed, and
anything that is suppressed willeventually come to to the rise
to the top, to all feel good tohear that, but if we do it in a
safe environment where we'relike leaning in, I want to hear
more about your um, your story.
Perfect example. I live in a Ilive in Pennsylvania. I live in
a, you know, rural part ofPennsylvania. I know a lot of my
(28:24):
friends like, why, but I hadsome really interesting
conversations. And I had one aconversation that I wrote about
in the book, about a gentlemanwho very conservative, young,
white, and he would flat, flyhis his confederate flag and our
own neighborhood would like kindof ostracize him, but one day I,
I was sitting on my porch in therocking chair, drinking some
(28:47):
whiskey, as we as we tend to doin this neighborhood, and he
comes over and we're just havinga conversation, and we start
into that conversation about theflag, and immediately he is he's
defensive, because he looks atme, he knows the work that I do,
and he thinks that I'm going toattack him verbally, verbally,
you know, or judge him. And whenI when I leaned in and said, Oh,
(29:09):
tell me more. You know, what'sthat about, he was, number one,
shocked, and then in his answerwas, you know, this is about,
you know, my heritage and myfamily, and to tell me more. So
what happened, which was, Ithought was amazing. I didn't
judge him. I just wanted tounderstand. And then he returned
the favor. He said, Well, tellme, what do you think about it?
What do you think when you seeit? I told him what I thought. I
(29:31):
told him what, what he mighthave heard, which is what other
people who look like me mightthink, right? So, representing
myself. And guess what happened?
He took the flag down. Now Ididn't ask him to take the flag
down. I took care. I just wantedto understand,
Dwight Brown (29:44):
yeah,
David Turetsky (29:44):
interesting.
CJ Gross (29:45):
And because of that, he said, Okay, well, because
there, this could be offensiveto people who look like you, and
we have people who look likeyou, but no, he said, This is
what he said. No one's ever satdown and asked me about why it's
important to me.
Dwight Brown (29:59):
Interesting.
CJ Gross (30:00):
And that is the power of understanding the zip code
story.
Dwight Brown (30:05):
Right
David Turetsky (30:05):
Yeah, drop your mic. We're good.
Dwight Brown (30:12):
That is a mic drop.
David Turetsky (30:12):
Well, thank you very much for being on the
Dwight Brown (30:19):
Just kidding.
We're so afraid to we're notafraid to have those
conversations and and, you know,who knows why we are maybe it's
because we're afraid of whatwe're going to hear. Well, we're
going to be perceived.
David Turetsky (30:33):
Look on LinkedIn. Those conversations
are happening on LinkedIn thesedays, and they're venomous. This
is not an anonymous platform,but people feel emboldened to
have not the conversation CJhad, but to have the
conversation of the one I wastalking about, about the
helicopter pilots and how it wasa diversity problem. They feel
(30:55):
so emboldened to CJ's pointbefore about pendulums and power
that they don't care. It's not aproblem for them to be vocal
because they believe, becausethey're in the majority as far
as voters go, that they're okay.
Hey, are you listening to thisand thinking to yourself, Man, I
(31:16):
wish I could talk to David aboutthis. Well, you're in luck. We
have a special offer forlisteners of the HR Data Labs
podcast, a free half hour callwith me about any of the topics
we cover on the podcast orwhatever is on your mind. Go to
salary.com/hrdlconsulting toschedule your free 30 minute
(31:37):
call today.
You know, I expect that on ananonymous platform like the Wall
Street journal.com or, you know,YouTube, but having it on a
LinkedIn where it's your careeris linked to this conversation,
that's scary as heck,
Dwight Brown (31:55):
and I think, I think it's important to
differentiate one piece, thoughit's easy when you're in the
electronic environment to havewhat starts as one side
conversations and ends upoftentimes in battles. Yeah,
when, when you're having theface to face like CJ did with
(32:17):
his with his neighbor, I thinkthe in-person aspect can really
kind of change the dynamics ofthat and and I have to wonder
how much, how much impact,because of the electronic
environments are such so bakedinto our life. Now, I wonder how
(32:38):
much of that has to do with alot of what we're seeing and
feeling, and I wonder what itwould be like if we could just
get two people in a room to sitdown and have that conversation.
What would the outcome look likewith that?
David Turetsky (32:54):
I fear that unless a metal detector is used,
that will go a different way.
Dwight Brown (33:00):
in some cases, yes, but I gotta believe, in
many cases,
David Turetsky (33:06):
no sharp objects,
Dwight Brown (33:07):
probably not.
CJ Gross (33:07):
Well, I will say, because I'm a consultant, I'm in
these organizations, I'm behindthe scenes, and people would
come to me. They wouldn't saythis in front of everyone. They
come to me like, when I'm going,when we take a break, I'm going
to the restroom. One person,even you know we're talking to
me, and was talking to me in therestroom, and they were having
these conversations that we'retalking about because they
(33:28):
didn't want to feel judged,right? So part of this is if we
could be very transparent,honest, as well as considerate,
that no one likes to tell peoplebad news. We don't like to say
things in front of people. We'rerefer like we're going to be
judged, because we don't knowhow people will receive it, and
(33:50):
do we have the emotionalintelligence and social
intelligence to deal with it? Sositting on that, sitting on the
porch of the rocking chair,talking to my neighbor, I mean,
there was still a risk, becausethese are my neighbor, but it's
not the same risk as if I'mtalking to HR, I'm in front of
HR and I'm talking that's thehigher risk. So to be, you know,
to be transparent of that, youknow, to acknowledge that, is
(34:12):
one thing. The other thing is,what I'm finding, whether you
want to have the conversation ornot, are you, do you have the
skill sets, and do you have theframework, and do you have the
emotional intelligence? Becausethere is sometimes there's
fallout in the beginning, andthen, if you consistently show
that you're a equal opportunityperson, individual, if you get
(34:32):
about you know the policieswithin your organization, but
you are fair when people believeyou are fair, no matter what
their zip code, story is,whatever identity, whether it's
race, gender or sexualorientation, post politics. When
people think you are fair, theywill share with you. They will
tell you information that theywouldn't tell anyone else. They
will listen to you. They willgive you they will they will
(34:53):
take in feedback. I had agentleman who was doing my
headshot, and he's a good friendof mine, and in this and. I in
this election previous I'll justshare the story. We're driving
down for a 45 minute drive to godo a headshot. And he looks at
me, and he goes, guess what? AndI go, what? I'm thinking he's
gonna tell me about a new cameraor something. He's like, guess
(35:16):
what? I voted for Trump.
David Turetsky (35:20):
So you're like, okay, and by the way, that the
next stop is right here, justkidding.
CJ Gross (35:26):
I'm thinking, like, why? Yeah, so many things are
going to
David Turetsky (35:29):
Why disclose that?
CJ Gross (35:30):
Yeah, yeah. Like, why do you want to talk? And I shy
away from, you know, talkingabout politics with with close
friends, right? Because it'slike, one of the, you know, it's
gonna be very touchy. But Isaid, You know what? The 45
minute convert, you know, driveyou want. You brought it up.
Let's have the conversation,right?
David Turetsky (35:45):
And 90? Is it 90 minute or 40? You're gonna have
to drive him back.
CJ Gross (35:51):
I got your Uber back, but see, and I think that's the
thing that there is the fear of,you know, and for whatever
reason, he felt like there wassafety and telling but I don't
know why he was so excited aboutit, right? So anyway, I had to
use all of the skills that Ihave.
David Turetsky (36:06):
Yeah,
CJ Gross (36:07):
To have that conversation in this day and
time. And the first thing I saidwas, when you say, you know,
you're in this moving in thisdirection from from a political
perspective, tell me more,because I didn't want to, I
didn't want to, I didn't wantto, just reason, right? Yeah, so
(36:27):
tell me more, right? And whenyou say you think he's going to
do a better job running thecountry, what does that really
mean for you? And what do youthink it means for me? So
instead of, it's really hard todo that, instead of, instead of
him, instead of having, like,you know, I'm gonna give you my
(36:48):
thoughts and I'm gonna judgeyou, especially in this day and
age, but having the restraintand the skills and the building
the art to say, tell me more andhelp me understand. I learned
some things. I totally disagreewith him, but I learned some
things, and it became a lesscom, less uncomfortable
conversation. And he so, I mean,he is so supportive of the work
(37:10):
in the zip code story. So thisgoes back to the conversation
about duality.
David Turetsky (37:15):
Yeah,
CJ Gross (37:15):
Can you have someone, for whatever reason, who voted
for Trump considering, I mean,this is the aftermath. I haven't
taught some and
David Turetsky (37:23):
You won't to talk to him again.
CJ Gross (37:24):
Is it true? Can you have someone who voted for
Trump, right and still believesin a certain level of inclusion
and diversity, and you know, allthese different things? Weeks
later, he sent me something andsay, hey, something about the
zip code stories like, Hey, thisis the zip code story. And I
think we should promote think weshould promote it here. This is,
this will be great. So, so couldboth? Could both be true? And I
(37:47):
know we want to. We need ourbrains, need him to be in one
category or the other.
Dwight Brown (37:51):
So, right? Yeah, it's, it's a zip code. What, who
you vote for is a zip code, youknow.
David Turetsky (37:57):
Well, and as part of those tools that you
were talking about, and my firstreaction would be to be snarky
about it and to say somethingknee jerk that might offend
them, or to say and by the way,Uber is on my phone right now,
and I will get you a ride home.
(38:19):
But other other than that,though, I've had very good
conversations with people to tryand understand what policy,
what, what was the failing ofthe other candidates. And I've
actually had that conversationwith someone in my family about
not voting for Kamala, but andalso not voting for Trump, but
not voting for either candidate.
(38:41):
And I said, Well, you know, avote that's not for Kamala is a
vote for for Trump, ostensibly.
And you know how that all works?
And they were so furious aboutcertain social and really
emotionally charged topics thatthey couldn't get beyond it.
Couldn't vote for her, right?
And so instead of canceling themto your point, or, you know, or
(39:09):
dismissing their opinion, Iheard them out, and I
understand, but, you know, partof me was disappointed, but, but
I didn't let that come across.
It was, that's their choice.
They're a voter. It's theirchoice, and that's okay. And so
one of the ways I've beenrationalizing the next four
years or three years and 11months and a few hours, is that
this is what the choice of theAmerican people was, unless
(39:33):
there was something going on,but this was the choice, and
this is what we're going to haveto live with for probably beyond
four years, probably decades,especially with dismantling of
our institutions. But, but, butto your point, instead of
dismissing their thoughts,instead of dismissing their
(39:53):
beliefs, listen to them,understand them, and try and
create. A common ground whereyou can still have a
relationship with that person,
CJ Gross (40:04):
yeah, and I think that's important, because at the
end of the day, you know,organizations that I work in are
very political, yep, very heavypower based on power, right? So
who's, you know, and in order topull people from different
groups. We need more of thoseconversations, because what will
happen is, well, you might notagree with that person, but a
(40:27):
week later is a different topic.
They're more likely to trustyou. They're more likely to use
their internal I'm not sayingorganization, not you know us,
political power anything buttheir organizational political
power to support something, toget something done, right? And I
(40:48):
think that is a hard thing tounderstand, how you deal with
that, because it takes a lot ofinner work. And in the book,
Getting back to the book, I talkabout that you cannot do this
work, and I say this work, youknow, with inside organizations
and bring different groupstogether, unless you are willing
to do the work on your own selfand understand how your zip code
(41:09):
story will apply and impactthese conversations.
David Turetsky (41:18):
I don't think there's anything more to say. I
think that's a beautiful way ofending. And seriously, now you
can, you can drop the mic. CJ,thank you so much for being
here. It's been such a pleasurehaving this discussion, and I
will venture to say that we weregoing to have you back to talk a
little bit more, especially astime goes on and we see how
(41:38):
people are relating to eachother in the context of of where
we are
CJ Gross (41:43):
absolutely well, thank Thank you. David and Dwight, for
having me on. It's been apleasure, and it's been a good
time. Yeah, we
David Turetsky (41:49):
Definitely enjoy this.
Dwight Brown (41:50):
Thanks for being on.
CJ Gross (41:51):
Absolutely and
David Turetsky (41:52):
Dwight, thank you.
Dwight Brown (41:53):
Thank you. Been great, you guys,
David Turetsky (41:56):
and it's been wonderful to have you all here.
Thank you. Take care and staysafe.
Announcer (42:02):
That was the HR Data Labs podcast. If you liked the
episode, please subscribe. Andif you know anyone that might
like to hear it, please send ittheir way. Thank you for joining
us this week, and stay tuned forour next episode. Stay safe.
The world of business is more complex than ever. The
world of human resources andcompensation is also getting
more complex. Welcome to the HRdata labs podcast, your direct
source for the latest trendsfrom experts inside and outside
the world of human resources.
Listen as we explore the impactthat compensation strategy, data
and people analytics can have onyour organization. This podcast
(00:29):
is sponsored by salary.com Yoursource for data technology and
consulting for compensation andbeyond. Now here are your hosts,
David Turetsky and Dwight Brown.
David Turetsky (00:38):
Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs
podcast. I'm your host. DavidTuretsky, alongside my friend,
co host, partner in crime.
Dwight Brown from salary.com,Dwight, how are you
Dwight Brown (00:47):
Mostly partner in crime? But we want to talk about
those. Yeah, statute oflimitations, Yeah, I'm good. How
are you doing today?
David Turetsky (00:55):
I'm okay. It's actually beautiful here. It's
not freezing cold in my office.
So I'm good, nice. But you knowwhy I'm better?
Dwight Brown (01:02):
Why is that?
David Turetsky (01:03):
We have a brilliant guest with us. His
name is Christopher. CJ, gross.
CJ, welcome to the HR DataLabs podcast.
CJ Gross (01:10):
Thank you. David and Dwight I appreciate it? And I
mean, I'm excited to be here.
I've been waiting for this.
David Turetsky (01:15):
Yeah, we've been excited too. CJ, tell us a
little bit about you
CJ Gross (01:19):
Sure. So I am a business management consultant.
I have two companies since I'vetalked to you last so I have the
ascension worldwide, which dealswith, you know, culture work
within organizations. And Irecently have launched Jabbar HR
(01:39):
solutions that deals with allthings. HR, awesome. I will say
a little bit about mybackground. I come from the the
industry of engineering. I was amechanical designer for General
Electric many, many moons ago.
(02:01):
And I, you know, was exposed tosix sigma process improvement.
Tell people, I'm a black beltSix Sigma and I know karate,
both are there
David Turetsky (02:08):
you go, there you go. Both
Dwight Brown (02:10):
are true. Point I'm tired.
CJ Gross (02:14):
Yeah, both are true.
But the reason why that'simportant is because it informs
the work, the work that I do inorganizations. And we can talk a
little, you know, we'll that.
I'm sure that will come out aswe discuss. And then, you know,
most of my work have has been inthe leadership realm, the OD
realm, and then more recently,when I say recently, within the
(02:37):
last six years, you know, thelot around the DEI work. Now, I
know that's why it'squestionable now, but that that
happened, and then also, youknow, lots of recruiting and the
leadership development spanningover the last 20 years. So
that's me!
David Turetsky (02:57):
but, what you didn't mention is that you're
also a published author as well.
CJ Gross (03:03):
Oh, yeah, about that?
I am. I am the author of what'syour zip code story,
understanding and overcomingclass bias in the workplace. And
yeah, that's what we're here totalk about. So yeah.
David Turetsky (03:21):
Yes we will, but before we do that, we always ask
our guests, what's one fun thingthat no one knows about CJ.
CJ Gross (03:31):
I tell a lot about myself, so I don't know if it's
something that no one knows. Iwould have to dig really deep.
You got to dig deep because I'ma very transparent speaker, so
people know a lot, but you knowwhat I will say, some people
don't know I have a couple ofthings, but some people don't
know that I'm, I'm I motocross.
(03:53):
Oh, oh yeah, I motocross. Andwhat that actually means to be
very specific. So I did rideactual motocross, the big jumps
and all that, after the eight to40. I just wanted to make that
very
David Turetsky (04:03):
I didn't get into a lot of padding. You had a
CJ Gross (04:05):
Usually people stop around and, you know, maybe they
lot ofstop in their 30s or something.
I had a coach, right? And so thecoach was like, you know, if you
could do anything in the world,what would you? And I was like,
Ah, man, I love motocross. Iwould do motocross. We couldn't
afford it when I was younger.
And blah, blah, blah. And shewas like, Well, what's stopping
you? And I was like, I don'tknow. Then. And then I got off
the call and told my wife, I'mgonna ride motocross. She
(04:26):
goes,No, no, right? Motocrossfor like, a year. And then I was
like, This is dangerous. And soI shifted to so I still had a
motocross bike, but I shiftedthe trail ride, and yeah,
David Turetsky (04:42):
which is a lot less dangerous, by the way.
Actually, it's dangerous,
CJ Gross (04:46):
Dangerous, but it's no more than walking across the
street right
David Turetsky (04:49):
exactly
CJ Gross (04:50):
when you're riding on the trails. I mean, you control
the speed. You're not racing.
You're Not You don't have to dowheelies, you know, you don't
have right. You might hit atree, but that's when you right.
That's, that's. It's on you,that's on you, that's not
David Turetsky (05:02):
literally on you.
CJ Gross (05:05):
So, yeah,
Dwight Brown (05:06):
so that's your own damn fault.
CJ Gross (05:08):
Yeah, that tree was minding his own business. It had
nothing to do with you. Youdrove into that tree, right? So
that's a little known fact aboutme, all right?
Dwight Brown (05:16):
Poor tree
David Turetsky (05:17):
that reminds me to joke, what's the last thing
that goes through a mosquito'smind before it passes away. Oh
God, when it hits yourwindshield, yeah, it's
buttocks!
CJ Gross (05:29):
Buttocks,
David Turetsky (05:30):
yeah, it's the last thing that goes through its
mind, buttocks. It's tush, it'sglass, it's
Dwight Brown (05:39):
we're trying to keep it from being explicit.
CJ Gross (05:42):
Oh, sorry, yeah,
David Turetsky (05:45):
sorry, sorry, it's a father joke, a dad joke.
So, oh, my god, yeah, my kids dothe exact same thing. They go,
what? What are you saying? I wasthinking about. You're hitting a
tree, right? Well, you're Yeah,anyway, okay, so see when you
(06:07):
have to explain the joke toeverybody out there, but you
have to explain the joke, it's
CJ Gross (06:11):
As long as we laugh.
That's the whole point, right?
Yeah,
David Turetsky (06:14):
exactly, which is totally fine, by the way.
Yeah, right. So we're here totalk about our topic for today,
not talking about jokes. Ourtopic for today is talking about
your book. What's your zip codestory, which is fascinating. And
what we want to try and talkabout is the context of today,
because the book came out in 22Correct,
CJ Gross (06:35):
correct.
David Turetsky (06:36):
Well, the world has changed dramatically since
2022 if we can believe it,that's not really even three
years ago. And so what we'regoing to do is we're going to
explore what's your zip codestory,
CJ Gross (06:47):
sure.
David Turetsky (06:56):
So CJ, let's talk a little bit about what's
your zip code story. What reallyinspired you to write this book.
So
CJ Gross (07:02):
David, what's interesting is when people ask
me that question, I alwayswanted them to know that I did
not want to write this book,right? I did not want to go
through the labor of writinganother book, going through the
process of publishing andmarketing and all those things.
But what I saw like I said inthe intro, I was doing work in
(07:23):
the diversity kind of area, andthere were things that were not
being addressed. And part ofthat was I was made aware of
that when I had a conversationwith a gentleman. His name was
Rob, and he was a gay AfricanAmerican man, and he was a
(07:47):
little bit older than me, and Ihad a story in my head about
him, as we often do when we talkto people. Okay, so he's gay and
he's older, so he's experiencedmore racism and homophobia,
right? And so I was thinking,oh, man, his life is probably
he's gonna tell me somethingthat's, you know, all these
hurdles. And he did. But what hesaid was, which was shocking to
(08:08):
me, he said he's talking aboutbeing excluded. And I was like,
Yeah, being excluded. Yeah, thathappens. And he talks about
being excluded from the countryclub. And I was like, well,
that's not my story. We werejust worried about getting into
the YMCA. And so, yeah, hetalked about having a mentor,
yeah, and mentors. His mentorwas Maya Angelou. I was like,
whoa, wow. I said, your story
David Turetsky (08:31):
drops that name,
CJ Gross (08:32):
yeah, your story, yes, you experience racism, you
experience exclusion, youexperience all those things, but
at a different level, right?
Exactly? I was like, that'ssomething that we're not really
dealing with, which is, youknow, at the time, I was like,
Well, what is this thing? Right,similar, but not the same. And
so from there, I read a articleby Joan C Williams, one of she's
(08:58):
one of the Harvard BusinessReview contributors as one of
the most read contributors tothe Harvard Business Review, and
the article, I believe, wascalled Why class should be a
part of your DEI conversation,or something like that, right?
And she wrote a book called TheWorking white class. And all of
(09:22):
this is correlated, right? Sothis is very interesting. All of
this is correlated with the workor the book that are now sitting
Vice President, JD Vance, hisbook, Hillbilly Eligy, right,
which is about social class,right? So, full circle there. So
it doesn't matter what your yourbackground. We're all
experiencing this, thisexperience around class and how
(09:43):
people will judge us based onwhere we're from and how we grew
up. And so I did, then a aworking kind of a brag back bra.
I did a working brown bag kindof Lunch and Learn for the
company that I was working for,just to see how it would land.
(10:07):
And people were amazed. Theynever thought about not just
where they grew up, but how theygrew up. And it started a
dialog, right, this germinationof ideas and concepts. And then
I submitted to the Society forHuman Resource Management annual
conference, and it got pickedup. And so that was in 2019 and
so from there, I knew it wassomething, and that's from
there, you know, the rest ishistory, as they say, you know,
(10:30):
on to the on to the developmentof the concepts and interviewing
people. So that's I wrote thebook, not because I wanted to,
because I thought there was agap in the work that we were
doing around culture work.
David Turetsky (10:44):
But this, this happens every day, though, yeah,
when we have social interactionsand we make our judgments based
on what we see in front of us,you know, they say, you know,
first impressions, you know,tell a lot about you, or you
make you, make you, makesomeone's mind up about you in
that first impression,
CJ Gross (11:03):
absolutely.
David Turetsky (11:04):
And when it comes to class, it's very easy
in some ways, and it's verydifficult in others to make
those judgments, but we do itevery time, every day, good and
bad. Like you said, you weremeeting this African American
gentleman who was gay, and youhad a conception and in your
head about about him, and thenit blew you away that Maya
(11:24):
Angelou was one of his mentors.
I mean, it blew me away. I don'teven know, because, you know,
she was such a rock star, andshe was so important in our
world, right? So when you satdown to write this, did you, you
know it's trying to, but it'salmost like trying to solve for
for world peace when you open upthis kind of Pandora's box,
(11:46):
because it is kind of all theworld's evils in those in
dealing with class. Is itsomething that you tried to say,
let's at least start the dialog?
Or was it a, Hey, I think I havesomething. I have an idea about
how we might be able to addressthis, which was the were you
(12:07):
swing for the fences like abaseball analogy, or were you
just trying to get a single?
Well,
CJ Gross (12:12):
I think a little bit of both probably was the was the
challenge with writing the book,because it was so much to cover.
Yeah, when you start talking, Iinterview people like telling me
about your zip code story, andthere was one thought that I
had. It's like, oh, here's, youknow, probably what's happening.
But there's so many things thatinform someone's life. It's not
just where you grew up in it,and we tend to put people into
that category. You know, if yougrew up in Beverly, Beverly
(12:34):
Hills, or you grew upinternationally, or you were in
certain parts of the world,especially if you know that zip
code story, or that zip code,you go, Oh, you're from there.
Oh, right? Yeah, wow,yeah, every city is bad, right?
David Turetsky (12:43):
exactly, And so it was me just trying to
highlight the back drop of thesestories and what they mean to
us, and then also trying to helppeople understand, number one,
you're not a bad person becauseyou do this. Because your brain
(13:03):
puts people into categoriesbased on people, places and
things. I call it classificationinstead of social class
classification, right? Thatsounds a little bit more
technical, and that's what yourbrain is doing. We do this when
it comes to anything that wepurchase. So, for example, my
neighbors, so they don't know myneighbors, we're a big dog
(13:25):
community, right?
Sure.
CJ Gross (13:28):
And people do, they want to know what kind of dog do
you have, right? And they thenkeep together how much you may
have paid for your dog based onwhether it's mixed or not. You
know all those different things,right, right? And you can tell
the direction of theconversation. So something as
simple as, you know, what kindof dog do you have? Can create a
story about this person, andobviously, kind of car you
(13:48):
drive. And then when you go tothese networking events, getting
back to work related things,it's like, What school did you
go to?
David Turetsky (13:55):
Right,
CJ Gross (13:56):
And then you can see on people's faces their
Dwight Brown (13:56):
right.
response, you know, if you sayyou went to, I was making a
joke, that's it. When you sayHarvard, it's almost like you
now, I have almost a Britishaccent, because you need to be,
especially if, especially if theparents say, oh my, my child
studying at Harvard or school,school you never heard of. It's
(14:19):
really quick. They don't, youknow, and a breeze over it.
CJ Gross (14:23):
And then, right, we do. And sometimes it's not
intentional, it's just thesocial contracts that we've made
in our society that have beencreated. And we all kind of play
our role. And it's just assimple as fish not knowing
they're in water. We don't knowthat we do this, but we do it
all the time. To your point,
Dwight Brown (14:42):
yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's almost an
automatic reflex and, like, sayit's not a negative reflection.
It's, I mean, it's an innatething. We in order to survive,
we have to make firstimpressions. And so I think that
the. Uh, you know, the fact thatwe do it really is much deeper
(15:04):
than just sort of that surfacelevel. You're judgmental or
you're not judgmental, kind ofthing
CJ Gross (15:09):
in this world that we live in now, it is very
challenging to try to do whetheryou're trying to do this work,
you're a leader and manager, andyou're leading different people
from different backgrounds, yourHR, professional, and you're
dealing with all of thesethings, it's we like to put
people in the categories. You'rea good person, you're a bad
person. However, when we werehunter and gather society, we
(15:33):
use this kind of thinking,right? Our brain made these
decisions so to make sure thatwhen we when we went to go find
dinner, that we didn't becomedinner right right now we're
longer living in those thosetimes our brain is still
functioning the same, but now wehave vilified people for being
human. Now that doesn't letpeople off the hook for saying
egregious things. However, if westart from the basis that we are
(15:58):
all operating on our reptilianbrain, and when we go whether we
can go to the grocery store, andwe judge that person for having
too many coupons,
David Turetsky (16:09):
that's my mother.
CJ Gross (16:10):
More like I'm out, I can't do it, I you know, or we
are sitting on a board for anorganization, and we're trying
to decide who should be thenext, the succession planning
for the next, whether it's a CEOor Executive Director or
(16:31):
president. And we're literally,I just got, I literally just got
off a board meeting, and we'reliterally saying to ourselves, I
noticed this one little thingabout this person, and I wonder,
does that me make them a betterleader or not so much a better
leader? And none of these thingsare, you know, based on research
or any of those things. It'sbased on, you know, I didn't
(16:53):
like they had glasses on withthose corn room. I don't just
not sure that would make a goodleader. Or, yeah, they put a lot
of salt. They put a lot of salton there,
David Turetsky (17:03):
and they didn't taste it first.
CJ Gross (17:05):
Yeah, they didn't taste that's gotta mean
something. That's gotta meansomething. So I think that's the
I wanted to highlight that partof what Dwight just said it's
important.
David Turetsky (17:14):
But to your point, some of this is learned
and some of this is trained,right? Like, to that last point
you made, my grandfather toldme, never put salt, especially
in a business meeting. Never putsalt on something unless you try
it first. So you're showing tothe person that you're with that
you're willing to do theresearch, you're willing to go
the next step to make sure thatwhat you're doing made sense.
(17:37):
And I'm gonna get the pointscoming to Dwight's point, when
you were talking about, youknow, the reptilian brain, what
I was thinking is, wheneverwe're doing that, whenever we're
going on line in thatsupermarket, our brain does
that. Is this person going to beuseful to me? Are they going to
stand in my way? Right? Are theygoing to be a good teammate,
(17:58):
like you said, you know, when wego to hunt, are they going to be
good, or are they going to putus in jeopardy? And it's almost
like watching an episode of TheWalking Dead, right? You come
upon new people who survived,and you go, Hmm, are they going
to try and kill me? Are theygoing to try and, you know, chop
me up and make me into bait? Arethey going to what are we? So we
make those decisions in a splitsecond, and it's just something
(18:20):
innate. But I think what we'rewhat we need to talk about is,
how do you make sure that whatyou're doing makes sense, given
where we are in our environmenttoday?
CJ Gross (18:31):
Well, David, one, one thing I want to highlight to
your, to your point that youwere making about the Dwight
point, which is duality. Yeah.
So our brains need to consider,or we need to consider that
duality also exists, right? So,yes, I could put salt on
everything on my plate, becausethat's how I grew up. But does
that exclude me from being awizard when it comes to numbers
(18:55):
or IT, or project management orengineering, or any of those
things, right? So I think wehave meshed those two together.
Brain said one thing, one plusone equals two, whereas there's
duality. Both things can exist.
So I just wanted to highlightthat,
Announcer (19:16):
Like what you hear so far. Make sure you never miss a
show by clicking subscribe. Thispodcast is made possible by
Salary.com now, back to theshow.
David Turetsky (19:26):
Well, our next topic, or our next question for
you around our topic, is whenyou were writing the book and
you were doing your researchabout this, you know, where did
you start? Did you dointerviews? Did you do
quantitative metrics to to tofigure this out.
CJ Gross (19:43):
What I tried to do was think about my own experience
first, right? So the so part ofthe book is the backdrop of the
book is my experience. But thenI was like, Okay, so my
experience is not everyexperience, right? So this is
the middle class upbringing. Uh,in the 1970s and 80s, from a
(20:03):
predominantly African Americancommunity right outside of
Washington, DC. And I was like,Well, what other stories exist?
So I found someone who grew upin an Appalachian Community who
identified with being a whitewoman and Christian Right,
Christian values. I foundsomeone who grew up in an inner
city and went to HBCU, but alsothen went to Harvard as a law
(20:23):
student. I found someone whogrew up in the UK, but also went
to boarding school and kind ofhad a different experience as
well, right? So I wanted to mixit up. Got someone who was from
a different part of Asia, andtook those stories, interviewed
those individuals with aframework of class biases,
(20:46):
right? There were eightdifferent class biases that we
found, and those class biaseskind of directed my conversation
and interview style with them,so it was a little bit of
qualitative and quantitative.
And we also did secondaryresearch as well to find out
what the concepts existed outthere.
David Turetsky (21:03):
When you went through the interviews, did you
make sure that you were tryingto not only get the appropriate
samples, but also making surethat all the environment that
you're recording in the well therecording itself? Did you make
sure that you were trying tokeep everything else held equal,
so that it was kind of a similarexperience across the board,
(21:24):
meaning you didn't take one outto a very expensive restaurant,
the other one out to, I don'tknow, a McDonald's to have the
conversation.
CJ Gross (21:32):
That's a great question. And so all of the
interviews were done via zoomnumber one, and unfortunately,
it couldn't be as equal, becausesome people were in different
countries, and we were able tointerview with them. There's a
woman from India that weinterviewed, and that interview
was very interesting, because Ihad to try to mitigate my bias
(21:55):
as I interview people for thebook.
David Turetsky (21:57):
Yeah.
CJ Gross (21:57):
So the woman from India, the woman from India. My
experience with people from thatcountry was different at the
time, and I automatically puther in a category, that she grew
up struggling, that she grew up,you know, with the challenges
that I that I've heard about orseen from other colleagues or in
movies by Kent Richard, right?
(22:20):
And it wasn't that at all. Shegrew up very wealthy. It wasn't
about exclusion. She grew aroundother people who were who were
also Indian, and her biggestissue was gender. It wasn't, you
know, those other things that Iwas I was putting my own biases
overlay of right conversation.
And she said, You know, when shewent to school, her biggest
issue was going to school as awoman in a male dominated not
(22:45):
only environment, but also womenin from her perspective and her
religion, women went to schoolto find a husband, whereas men
went to school to find a career,
David Turetsky (22:54):
right,
Dwight Brown (22:54):
right?
CJ Gross (22:55):
And my, my kind of American lens, was like, at
least you're going to school.
But that was like, Well, wait aminute, you're missing the
point, because I'm in adifferent place again, the zip
code, our zip code stories, evenin the interview, were
colliding, and I had to do extrawork that that thinking,
David Turetsky (23:14):
yeah,
Dwight Brown (23:15):
it is always interesting to me, as I you
know, when I observe myselfthinking about those first
impressions that you talkedabout. We we write the story in
our head within a five secondtime frame, and then when you do
start to get to know someone,how differently you look at
(23:35):
them, and it's you know, and thepoint that you bring up is sort
of that realization of realizingthat you have a bias that you're
applying to it. That's a that'salmost a skill. It's, it's
learned, and some people learnat different levels. I think,
CJ Gross (23:53):
I think it's, I think it's more of an art, because
cognitively, you know, cerebrallooking from a cerebral
perspective, this all makessense, but as leaders in
organization, especially rightnow, and I think this is, this
is the challenge, and this is, Ithink, partially paved, the road
to get to where, where we are asa country right now is that we
(24:16):
didn't have Enough leaders withdifferent, diverse backgrounds
who could be transparent andvulnerable about, you know what?
I do have a bias against thiscertain type of person, because
that's taboo now, if we can bevery honest and fair in the
last, you know, three to fouryears, if you are a white man,
(24:37):
it was hard for you to say, Ihave a bias against someone who
is a person of color forwhatever reason, and not being
able to have that conversationand being able to be
transparent, and it's somewhatof a safe environment to say,
and now let's talk about it hascaused some of the challenges,
because in order to do thiswork, you have to be
transparent. One of my coachessaid you can't take people when
you're not willing to goyourself, or where you've never
(24:58):
been yourself, and that is. Thenyou have powerful experiences.
But if we exclude people of acertain background, no matter
what, whether you're margin, youknow it's marginalized or
historically marginalized orminority majority, it doesn't
matter. We all have a zip codestory, and we're not able to
share that without fear ofretaliation, and whether that's
(25:19):
being canceled or not beinggetting promoted, then we don't
have an environment where we canhave dialog. And when that
happens, people will use powerto protect themselves,
David Turetsky (25:30):
and I'm going to be the one who says, and now we
have those people who are sayingwhat they're thinking, and it's
scary as F
Dwight Brown (25:40):
Yeah,
David Turetsky (25:40):
and they just, they don't care. They're saying
the things that they werethinking before, right? And so
now we know exactly what they'rethinking. And it is really
scary, like there are too manyimmigrants in this country, and
people of color shouldn't begetting short chosen for these
promotions, or shouldn't behired, or we're gonna blame them
(26:02):
for planes crashing, even thoughwe don't know any of the story
about why the plane crashed,we're gonna blame other people
who aren't white or who aren'tmen, white men who weren't at
the controls of those planes.
That's the reason why thosethings happened. They're
literally saying this stuff outloud, and we know that they were
(26:26):
thinking it before. CJ, right.
We knew it because, you knowthey were who they were, but now
they're they're feelingempowered to say it now, which,
to me, is partially good,because now I know exactly what
they're thinking, and partiallyI'm freaking out because now I
know what they're thinking, andthey're the ones who are in
power, and they're the ones whoare setting policy, and they're
(26:48):
the ones who are leading ourcountry, not just the president,
but everybody else now who arerunning our government. Feel
this way.
CJ Gross (26:56):
I think what the challenge is, is to have people
share those thoughts in a safeenvironment, before we have this
pendulum swing of power, peopleare emboldened to say things
when, as human beings, we are,we are we? If we have power, we
(27:18):
feel like we can share, we cansay, but we want the power to be
distributed in a way where wedon't need to cause the demise
of someone else for us to sharea perspective of how we think.
Now, what's healthy about thatis, if someone said that to you,
right? So let's say, forexample, someone said, I don't
(27:38):
think that there's too manyminorities or not. Well, there's
too many immigrants and in thiscountry and minorities are too
sensitive, and they have toomany diversity hires and
companies and organizations,that person will be canceled
within the last you know, if youwere said, that was said in the
last five years or post thiselection, right? We know this to
(27:58):
be true because we saw it, butyet it still existed, and
anything that is suppressed willeventually come to to the rise
to the top, to all feel good tohear that, but if we do it in a
safe environment where we'relike leaning in, I want to hear
more about your um, your story.
Perfect example. I live in a Ilive in Pennsylvania. I live in
a, you know, rural part ofPennsylvania. I know a lot of my
(28:24):
friends like, why, but I hadsome really interesting
conversations. And I had one aconversation that I wrote about
in the book, about a gentlemanwho very conservative, young,
white, and he would flat, flyhis his confederate flag and our
own neighborhood would like kindof ostracize him, but one day I,
I was sitting on my porch in therocking chair, drinking some
(28:47):
whiskey, as we as we tend to doin this neighborhood, and he
comes over and we're just havinga conversation, and we start
into that conversation about theflag, and immediately he is he's
defensive, because he looks atme, he knows the work that I do,
and he thinks that I'm going toattack him verbally, verbally,
you know, or judge him. And whenI when I leaned in and said, Oh,
(29:09):
tell me more. You know, what'sthat about, he was, number one,
shocked, and then in his answerwas, you know, this is about,
you know, my heritage and myfamily, and to tell me more. So
what happened, which was, Ithought was amazing. I didn't
judge him. I just wanted tounderstand. And then he returned
the favor. He said, Well, tellme, what do you think about it?
What do you think when you seeit? I told him what I thought. I
(29:31):
told him what, what he mighthave heard, which is what other
people who look like me mightthink, right? So, representing
myself. And guess what happened?
He took the flag down. Now Ididn't ask him to take the flag
down. I took care. I just wantedto understand,
Dwight Brown (29:44):
yeah,
David Turetsky (29:44):
interesting.
CJ Gross (29:45):
And because of that, he said, Okay, well, because
there, this could be offensiveto people who look like you, and
we have people who look likeyou, but no, he said, This is
what he said. No one's ever satdown and asked me about why it's
important to me.
Dwight Brown (29:59):
Interesting.
CJ Gross (30:00):
And that is the power of understanding the zip code
story.
Dwight Brown (30:05):
Right
David Turetsky (30:05):
Yeah, drop your mic. We're good.
Dwight Brown (30:12):
That is a mic drop.
David Turetsky (30:12):
Well, thank you very much for being on the
Dwight Brown (30:19):
Just kidding.
We're so afraid to we're notafraid to have those
conversations and and, you know,who knows why we are maybe it's
because we're afraid of whatwe're going to hear. Well, we're
going to be perceived.
David Turetsky (30:33):
Look on LinkedIn. Those conversations
are happening on LinkedIn thesedays, and they're venomous. This
is not an anonymous platform,but people feel emboldened to
have not the conversation CJhad, but to have the
conversation of the one I wastalking about, about the
helicopter pilots and how it wasa diversity problem. They feel
(30:55):
so emboldened to CJ's pointbefore about pendulums and power
that they don't care. It's not aproblem for them to be vocal
because they believe, becausethey're in the majority as far
as voters go, that they're okay.
Hey, are you listening to thisand thinking to yourself, Man, I
(31:16):
wish I could talk to David aboutthis. Well, you're in luck. We
have a special offer forlisteners of the HR Data Labs
podcast, a free half hour callwith me about any of the topics
we cover on the podcast orwhatever is on your mind. Go to
salary.com/hrdlconsulting toschedule your free 30 minute
(31:37):
call today.
You know, I expect that on ananonymous platform like the Wall
Street journal.com or, you know,YouTube, but having it on a
LinkedIn where it's your careeris linked to this conversation,
that's scary as heck,
Dwight Brown (31:55):
and I think, I think it's important to
differentiate one piece, thoughit's easy when you're in the
electronic environment to havewhat starts as one side
conversations and ends upoftentimes in battles. Yeah,
when, when you're having theface to face like CJ did with
(32:17):
his with his neighbor, I thinkthe in-person aspect can really
kind of change the dynamics ofthat and and I have to wonder
how much, how much impact,because of the electronic
environments are such so bakedinto our life. Now, I wonder how
(32:38):
much of that has to do with alot of what we're seeing and
feeling, and I wonder what itwould be like if we could just
get two people in a room to sitdown and have that conversation.
What would the outcome look likewith that?
David Turetsky (32:54):
I fear that unless a metal detector is used,
that will go a different way.
Dwight Brown (33:00):
in some cases, yes, but I gotta believe, in
many cases,
David Turetsky (33:06):
no sharp objects,
Dwight Brown (33:07):
probably not.
CJ Gross (33:07):
Well, I will say, because I'm a consultant, I'm in
these organizations, I'm behindthe scenes, and people would
come to me. They wouldn't saythis in front of everyone. They
come to me like, when I'm going,when we take a break, I'm going
to the restroom. One person,even you know we're talking to
me, and was talking to me in therestroom, and they were having
these conversations that we'retalking about because they
(33:28):
didn't want to feel judged,right? So part of this is if we
could be very transparent,honest, as well as considerate,
that no one likes to tell peoplebad news. We don't like to say
things in front of people. We'rerefer like we're going to be
judged, because we don't knowhow people will receive it, and
(33:50):
do we have the emotionalintelligence and social
intelligence to deal with it? Sositting on that, sitting on the
porch of the rocking chair,talking to my neighbor, I mean,
there was still a risk, becausethese are my neighbor, but it's
not the same risk as if I'mtalking to HR, I'm in front of
HR and I'm talking that's thehigher risk. So to be, you know,
to be transparent of that, youknow, to acknowledge that, is
(34:12):
one thing. The other thing is,what I'm finding, whether you
want to have the conversation ornot, are you, do you have the
skill sets, and do you have theframework, and do you have the
emotional intelligence? Becausethere is sometimes there's
fallout in the beginning, andthen, if you consistently show
that you're a equal opportunityperson, individual, if you get
(34:32):
about you know the policieswithin your organization, but
you are fair when people believeyou are fair, no matter what
their zip code, story is,whatever identity, whether it's
race, gender or sexualorientation, post politics. When
people think you are fair, theywill share with you. They will
tell you information that theywouldn't tell anyone else. They
will listen to you. They willgive you they will they will
(34:53):
take in feedback. I had agentleman who was doing my
headshot, and he's a good friendof mine, and in this and. I in
this election previous I'll justshare the story. We're driving
down for a 45 minute drive to godo a headshot. And he looks at
me, and he goes, guess what? AndI go, what? I'm thinking he's
gonna tell me about a new cameraor something. He's like, guess
(35:16):
what? I voted for Trump.
David Turetsky (35:20):
So you're like, okay, and by the way, that the
next stop is right here, justkidding.
CJ Gross (35:26):
I'm thinking, like, why? Yeah, so many things are
going to
David Turetsky (35:29):
Why disclose that?
CJ Gross (35:30):
Yeah, yeah. Like, why do you want to talk? And I shy
away from, you know, talkingabout politics with with close
friends, right? Because it'slike, one of the, you know, it's
gonna be very touchy. But Isaid, You know what? The 45
minute convert, you know, driveyou want. You brought it up.
Let's have the conversation,right?
David Turetsky (35:45):
And 90? Is it 90 minute or 40? You're gonna have
to drive him back.
CJ Gross (35:51):
I got your Uber back, but see, and I think that's the
thing that there is the fear of,you know, and for whatever
reason, he felt like there wassafety and telling but I don't
know why he was so excited aboutit, right? So anyway, I had to
use all of the skills that Ihave.
David Turetsky (36:06):
Yeah,
CJ Gross (36:07):
To have that conversation in this day and
time. And the first thing I saidwas, when you say, you know,
you're in this moving in thisdirection from from a political
perspective, tell me more,because I didn't want to, I
didn't want to, I didn't wantto, just reason, right? Yeah, so
(36:27):
tell me more, right? And whenyou say you think he's going to
do a better job running thecountry, what does that really
mean for you? And what do youthink it means for me? So
instead of, it's really hard todo that, instead of, instead of
him, instead of having, like,you know, I'm gonna give you my
(36:48):
thoughts and I'm gonna judgeyou, especially in this day and
age, but having the restraintand the skills and the building
the art to say, tell me more andhelp me understand. I learned
some things. I totally disagreewith him, but I learned some
things, and it became a lesscom, less uncomfortable
conversation. And he so, I mean,he is so supportive of the work
(37:10):
in the zip code story. So thisgoes back to the conversation
about duality.
David Turetsky (37:15):
Yeah,
CJ Gross (37:15):
Can you have someone, for whatever reason, who voted
for Trump considering, I mean,this is the aftermath. I haven't
taught some and
David Turetsky (37:23):
You won't to talk to him again.
CJ Gross (37:24):
Is it true? Can you have someone who voted for
Trump, right and still believesin a certain level of inclusion
and diversity, and you know, allthese different things? Weeks
later, he sent me something andsay, hey, something about the
zip code stories like, Hey, thisis the zip code story. And I
think we should promote think weshould promote it here. This is,
this will be great. So, so couldboth? Could both be true? And I
(37:47):
know we want to. We need ourbrains, need him to be in one
category or the other.
Dwight Brown (37:51):
So, right? Yeah, it's, it's a zip code. What, who
you vote for is a zip code, youknow.
David Turetsky (37:57):
Well, and as part of those tools that you
were talking about, and my firstreaction would be to be snarky
about it and to say somethingknee jerk that might offend
them, or to say and by the way,Uber is on my phone right now,
and I will get you a ride home.
(38:19):
But other other than that,though, I've had very good
conversations with people to tryand understand what policy,
what, what was the failing ofthe other candidates. And I've
actually had that conversationwith someone in my family about
not voting for Kamala, but andalso not voting for Trump, but
not voting for either candidate.
(38:41):
And I said, Well, you know, avote that's not for Kamala is a
vote for for Trump, ostensibly.
And you know how that all works?
And they were so furious aboutcertain social and really
emotionally charged topics thatthey couldn't get beyond it.
Couldn't vote for her, right?
And so instead of canceling themto your point, or, you know, or
(39:09):
dismissing their opinion, Iheard them out, and I
understand, but, you know, partof me was disappointed, but, but
I didn't let that come across.
It was, that's their choice.
They're a voter. It's theirchoice, and that's okay. And so
one of the ways I've beenrationalizing the next four
years or three years and 11months and a few hours, is that
this is what the choice of theAmerican people was, unless
(39:33):
there was something going on,but this was the choice, and
this is what we're going to haveto live with for probably beyond
four years, probably decades,especially with dismantling of
our institutions. But, but, butto your point, instead of
dismissing their thoughts,instead of dismissing their
(39:53):
beliefs, listen to them,understand them, and try and
create. A common ground whereyou can still have a
relationship with that person,
CJ Gross (40:04):
yeah, and I think that's important, because at the
end of the day, you know,organizations that I work in are
very political, yep, very heavypower based on power, right? So
who's, you know, and in order topull people from different
groups. We need more of thoseconversations, because what will
happen is, well, you might notagree with that person, but a
(40:27):
week later is a different topic.
They're more likely to trustyou. They're more likely to use
their internal I'm not sayingorganization, not you know us,
political power anything buttheir organizational political
power to support something, toget something done, right? And I
(40:48):
think that is a hard thing tounderstand, how you deal with
that, because it takes a lot ofinner work. And in the book,
Getting back to the book, I talkabout that you cannot do this
work, and I say this work, youknow, with inside organizations
and bring different groupstogether, unless you are willing
to do the work on your own selfand understand how your zip code
(41:09):
story will apply and impactthese conversations.
David Turetsky (41:18):
I don't think there's anything more to say. I
think that's a beautiful way ofending. And seriously, now you
can, you can drop the mic. CJ,thank you so much for being
here. It's been such a pleasurehaving this discussion, and I
will venture to say that we weregoing to have you back to talk a
little bit more, especially astime goes on and we see how
(41:38):
people are relating to eachother in the context of of where
we are
CJ Gross (41:43):
absolutely well, thank Thank you. David and Dwight, for
having me on. It's been apleasure, and it's been a good
time. Yeah, we
David Turetsky (41:49):
Definitely enjoy this.
Dwight Brown (41:50):
Thanks for being on.
CJ Gross (41:51):
Absolutely and
David Turetsky (41:52):
Dwight, thank you.
Dwight Brown (41:53):
Thank you. Been great, you guys,
David Turetsky (41:56):
and it's been wonderful to have you all here.
Thank you. Take care and staysafe.
Announcer (42:02):
That was the HR Data Labs podcast. If you liked the
episode, please subscribe. Andif you know anyone that might
like to hear it, please send ittheir way. Thank you for joining
us this week, and stay tuned forour next episode. Stay safe.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!