May 8, 2025 • 37 mins
Desiree Goldey, Director of Marketing at ZRG Partners and Founder of Do Better Consulting, joins us this episode to discuss how the disconnect between talent and HR teams impacts an organization’s employees, both current and future.
[0:00] Introduction
- Welcome, Desiree!
- Today’s Topic: Fixing the Disconnect Between Talent and HR Teams
[4:32] How do we know there’s a disconnect between talent and HR?
- Root causes of talent-HR miscommunications
- Challenges in transforming company cultures
[10:53] How does the disconnect impact the recruiting process?
- How candidates experience a company’s confusion and mixed messaging
- Resume insights and advice, including why AI tools are essential in applicant-heavy job markets
[24:30] How does the disconnect affect employee engagement?
- The toll on company culture and morale
- Challenges facing remaining employees after a significant layoff
[36:10] Closing
- Thanks for listening!
Quick Quote
“When there’s a state of confusion [within a company], who suffers? It’s the employee.”
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Announcer (00:01):
The world of business is more complex than ever. The
world of human resources andcompensation is also getting
more complex. Welcome to the HRData Labs podcast, your direct
source for the latest trendsfrom experts inside and outside
the world of human resources.
Listen as we explore the impactthat compensation strategy, data
and people analytics can have onyour organization. This podcast
(00:29):
is sponsored by salary.com Yoursource for data technology and
consulting for compensation andbeyond. Now here are your hosts,
David Turetsky and Dwight Brown.
David Turetsky (00:38):
Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs
podcast. I'm your host, DavidTuretsky, and we have a fun one
for you today. We have ourfriend Desiree Goldey. Desiree,
how are you?
Desiree Goldey (00:48):
I am doing so good, David. It's lovely, lovely
Thursday here today in Austin,so I'm doing great.
David Turetsky (00:55):
And I'm in Boston, relative to Austin, and
it's cold. We have not shakenwinter yet, and we're not going
to for at least another, I don'tknow, probably month, and it is
cold.
Desiree Goldey (01:11):
Yeah, we are in this snap freeze that we always
have in February for a week. Soit's cold here too to us, it was
19 last night, so in Austin,that's like the end of the
world, yes?
David Turetsky (01:25):
Well, it's 19 here now, and it's not the end
of the world, but it's reallycold outside.
Desiree Goldey (01:33):
Yeah, yeah.
David Turetsky (01:34):
So Desiree, why don't you tell us a little bit
about yourself?
Desiree Goldey (01:37):
Yeah. So currently, I'm the director of
marketing and culture at ZRGPartners, who are global talent
advisory firm. I also own my ownconsulting company called Do
Better Consulting. I've been inthe talent and HR space for a
little bit, but my backgroundreally started in sales and
marketing consumer foods andhospitality. So
David Turetsky (01:58):
and if you'd see the jacket she's wearing now. It
screams marketing, because it isliterally her brand. She is. It
is an amazing blazer thatbasically has like, tons of
articles. It's a black and whiteblazer. It's just cool. I wish
you could see it.
Desiree Goldey (02:17):
cool things from actual news. So it's actually a
cool, really cool jacket,
David Turetsky (02:31):
and that is how I will describe Desiree. She is
just cool. But before we getinto our podcast today, what's
one fun thing that no one knowsabout, Desiree,
Desiree Goldey (02:42):
yeah, I don't know that. No one knows it, but
most people are going to be alittle shocked. I hate
chocolate.
David Turetsky (02:51):
So that was the HR Data Labs podcast. Thank you
for joining so, so, so, just soyou know, I love chocolate. In
fact, I have to have chocolatein my stomach at least once a
day or I get depressed.
Desiree Goldey (03:06):
Oh my gosh, you're like my partner. So
annoying, so annoying.
David Turetsky (03:11):
So, so it's okay to have it around the house
though
Desiree Goldey (03:13):
it is because I won't eat it, no.
David Turetsky (03:17):
So never a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup,
Desiree Goldey (03:19):
or every once in a while, but it doesn't thrill
me like it thrills other people,and I get
David Turetsky (03:25):
chocolate ice cream.
Desiree Goldey (03:27):
No, I actually don't even like ice cream death,
but,
David Turetsky (03:29):
oh my god, what are you
Desiree Goldey (03:32):
I don't know, but you would wonder why I'm not
super skinny.
David Turetsky (03:36):
Okay, for the record, I don't, and I'm just
saying this. I don't seeanything wrong with you, but,
but that being said, Death byChocolate ice cream with a
chocolate shell on top, to me,is close to heaven as you can
get. And by the way, if you'reeating Death by Chocolate,
you're probably gonna die fromit.
Desiree Goldey (03:57):
a chips girl, I'm a chick. Oh, really. Give me
a big bag of Doritos, and Icould sit there all day. Okay,
it's a problem.
David Turetsky (04:04):
Well, next time I meet you all, I'll send some
Doritos. How about that?
Desiree Goldey (04:08):
Thank you.
David Turetsky (04:10):
So our topic for today is going to be really
cool. It's going to be talkingabout something that is near and
dear to a lot of the people wholisten to our podcast heart,
which is the disconnect betweentalent and HR and how that
impacts recruiting and employeeengagement and culture
(04:33):
Desiree, what is that disconnectbetween talent and HR, and how
can you tell? What are thesigns?
Desiree Goldey (04:39):
Yeah, I think this is a, you know, it's an
interesting fact that I've beenmilling around for years. Is
about why I feel always when Iwork in organizations that have
a HR function and a talentfunction, why there's so much
miscommunication, I feel likethe goals and objective of HR
(04:59):
should. Line with what the goalsand objectives of talent are,
but it doesn't seem to everreally meet and and it causes,
you know, things like highturnover rates, employee
disengagement, misalignments inexpectations and comp and all
these crazy things that start tohappen, but we continually do
(05:21):
the same thing, right? We're notfixing that.
David Turetsky (05:23):
But can you just do me a favor? Step back a
second for one second. What doyou mean by talent? Because I've
been in some organizations wheretalent is recruiting. Are you
talking about talent thatincludes performance management,
succession, com,
Desiree Goldey (05:36):
I'm talking about the full talent scopes and
Talent Management Development,right. I'm talking about the
whole thing. I'm not justtalking about finding a job.
Okay, right? All right, right.
So and again, if you, if you aretalking about talent as a whole,
that disconnect almost becomeseven wider, yeah, between HR and
(05:58):
talent.
David Turetsky (05:59):
So is talent in this world is talent in
underneath the talent underneaththe CHRO, though, yes,
Desiree Goldey (06:04):
well, yes, if you have one, right?
David Turetsky (06:08):
But then, don't you think the alignment, and I'm
not picking on CHRO, there usedto be one, but don't you think
that that alignment needs tocome from the CHRO, if not from
the CEO?
Desiree Goldey (06:18):
Yeah, I totally agree with it, right? We always
talk about it. Everything needsto come from the top. But I do
think that HR leaders and whoare sit underneath the CHRO, and
talent leaders that situnderneath the CHRO tend to
struggle and conflict againsteach other for some reason,
right? They get in meetings andthey just can't seem to agree
(06:39):
what the the end goal is, yes, Iagree the CHRO should be the
ultimate decision maker, right?
But I don't know why we can'teven have those conversations,
up to the fact when we get tothe CR HRO,
David Turetsky (06:53):
is it because the alignment on what things I
mean? Could it be as basic isbeing able to understand what
the goals of the organizationare. Is it understanding the
business? What are thosesymptoms? What, what, where?
Where are we going? Wrong?
Desiree Goldey (07:11):
Yeah. I mean, I think there's a couple of
things. I think there'sdefinitely cultural
misalignment, right? What is theculture we're trying to build
here? What is the, you know, theobjectives and vision of the
company, right? We all, youknow, you can look at a mission
vision value statement and andread it, but what are the true
objectives and expectationsunder those mission vision and
(07:34):
values? And I feel so manycompanies don't do that extra
step, and so then you get thisconstant misalignment and
butting of heads between HR andtalent right as you go down and
drill into it. I hope that makessense.
David Turetsky (07:48):
Oh, it totally makes sense. And I think it's, I
don't want to say lazy, but Ithink a lot of times we put up
that mission, vision values onour website, we point to it a
lot, and we say, well, that's,that's what our goal is. But
they really don't have any wayof being able to translate into
operations, right and, and I'mnot even going to lay this at
(08:08):
the talent leader or the HRleader. It's not really them,
and it's not even the CHRO. Theability to create the right
culture comes from, as you said,the top but it also permeates a
lot of the decisions that aremade throughout the
organization. So you can sayculture as much as you want when
you're in HR, but unless you'rebusiness leaders and your
(08:29):
leaders and your managers andeven your employees, unless they
align to it, it ain't happening.
Desiree Goldey (08:34):
Oh, I totally agree. I mean, we I am. So I'm
actually sick of the wordculture. It's starting to drive
me a little nuts, likechocolate. What is your culture?
What's your culture?
David Turetsky (08:45):
What's your culture? The new chocolate is
what you're saying.
Desiree Goldey (08:48):
I wish that more people talked about the actual
objectives, yes, instead oftalking about the culture like
that, I'm doing air quotes, youknow, because I don't, I don't
know if most people get todefine the objectives of the
culture that they work in. And Ithink you're right.
Operationally, we don't drilldown into what that actually
(09:11):
means. And then we getmisaligned, not just in HR and
talent, but we get iteverywhere, right?
David Turetsky (09:16):
Well, you would have heard it just recently,
where, whether it's Facebook ormeta, whether you're listening
to Jamie Dimon for JP, MorganChase, whether you're talking
about well, the federalgovernment, there has been so
much whiplash that employeeshave had about what's their
(09:36):
culture and how do they act, andhow do they react, and how Do
they service their clients thatI think a lot of employees
struggle to understand, not justculture, but operational. You
know, you're talking aboutgoals, right? Operational,
tactical stuff. How do I get myjob done if my leaders are
saying one thing, but we've beenworking so well the other way,
(09:59):
and I. I kind of like it. Sowhat am I going to do?
Desiree Goldey (10:02):
Yeah, and then if you're a leader in that
organization, right? And you're,you have a leadership style,
you've been doing leadership,you're, you're hitting your
goals, you're doing all thesethings, suddenly you have to
make this huge switch. All ofyour people are freaking out.
You don't know what to do,because you don't even
understand now, we've got hugemisalignment, right, right? And
(10:23):
how you develop those people ina culture that does that, right?
And talent and HR, have to worryabout that. So
David Turetsky (10:30):
tell me you've solved that, and world peace is
next, right?
Desiree Goldey (10:33):
I know, right. I mean, this is not a solution.
No,
David Turetsky (10:38):
no, no. We're just highlighting it now. We're
just highlighting it now, yeah,
Announcer (10:42):
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Salary.com. Now, back to theshow.
David Turetsky (10:53):
Let's, let's go to question two, because I think
this is actually kind of cool,and it does talk to, like, a
little bit of how you deal withthis whip lash, which is, how
does that disconnect, and howdoes that difference in
operations actually impact therecruiting process?
Desiree Goldey (11:09):
Oh my gosh. I mean, we could talk about this
all day, but, I mean, it takesit longer to Yeah, yeah. It
really is an own subject, butlonger time to fill jobs
candidate experience ishorrifying. You know, I just, I
went through this whole thingwith a candidate recently, and
at the end, towards offer, wewent from remote to you are five
(11:33):
days in the office. Can youimagine? No going through six,
like, six interviews, and nowall of a sudden they're like,
Hey, you want it remote, butwe're going to send you right
back to the office.
David Turetsky (11:45):
Well, let me ask you a question about that
Desiree, because that's actuallyvery interesting. What has to
happen within that conversationto resell that person now that
you've changed the game on them,you've literally changed the
content of their job. You'vechanged their role. Now they
have to think about, you know,child care. They have to think
about, you know, commuting. Theyhave to think about a lot of
(12:08):
things or wardrobe. They have tothink about a lot of things that
they they didn't have toconsider before. Where do you
go? Where do you start?
Desiree Goldey (12:15):
Yeah, I mean, in this particular example, I mean,
we had to resell the positionright from the from scratch, and
then you have to sell all theother things that go into the do
the role, growth, opportunity,all of those things that you're
you probably may be highlighteda little bit, but now you have
(12:36):
to dig in real deep and prove tothat candidate that this is
their career path and sometimes,and in this case, it didn't
work, by the way,
David Turetsky (12:45):
yeah, so, I mean, you're right. We're
probably going to dig into thismore than we should. But this,
this again, I'll use the wordwhip lash, this change in
direction, this misalignmentthat occurs. How does that
change the way the recruiterwould actually have to go about
these things if they knew aboutit from the start. I mean,
(13:05):
obviously it's easier to sellsomeone when you're not changing
mid game, you're changing thestory mid game. But it's
literally about the brand.
You're there's a lot of changeabout the brand, especially if
it's very public like meta or JPMorgan Chase, where, you know,
there have been missteps.
Desiree Goldey (13:23):
No, yeah, absolutely. I mean, recruiters
are sales people in the end too,you know. And I think that
they're quick on their feet, andcan adapt to things fairly
quickly, and they can sell thedream even if it isn't the
dream, but Right, but as astalent leaders, and you know, we
(13:47):
shouldn't be putting them orCHROs, we shouldn't be putting
them at in that position, butit's happening every day. So I
think that if you give them thedirective, they're really good.
Yes, they can switch midstream,but if you give them the
directive, and let's say yourculture is horrible, you know, I
know recruiters that could stillsell everything you know, a
(14:08):
dream. So I think you settingthose objectives of what that
looks like for them, it is keyto how they bring in candidates.
Now you can argue with me that,you know, we, you know,
recruiters, that shouldn't be arecruiter's job is to to figure
all of that out. And I, I doagree with that, though I think
(14:29):
recruiters should be businesspartners, yep, right. And so,
you know, I think that they havea responsibility to some of this
as well.
David Turetsky (14:37):
Well, when it changes mid course, well, that's
the worst. That's, that's,that's hard, yeah, but when it
starts out where the requisitionalready says, you know, in the
office five days a week, I thinkit's a little easier, not only
for the recruiter, but also forthe candidates. Yeah, to budget
for those things, and you mightactually get a completely
different candidate pool. Oh,absolutely. Who either? Lives
(15:00):
near the office, or who doesn'tdoesn't mind being in the office
five days a week, or who enjoysit? I mean, obviously there are
people who, you know, lovehybrid, they love remote, but
they also, there are people wholove being in the office five
days.
Desiree Goldey (15:13):
They do. Yeah, they do. And I think if you
again, you know, jobdescriptions for me are
everything you know, laying outas much as you can in the job
description is key, andswitching, especially remote
hybrid in office, to me, is oneand comp, right? Those are the
next thing, but remote in officeand hybrid are one of the keys
(15:36):
to an essential to a good jobdescription right now, because
there are people that have somany expenses, and this job
market is crazy, this economy iscrazy, and they have to figure
that in to what they're evenasking for, or whether the comp
meets their needs. So it gets alittle crazy when we start to
talk about some of these things.
David Turetsky (15:54):
Let me. Let me kind of go back to though, one
of the things that's a littlebit more important for the
impact on the recruitingprocess, which is, now there's a
lot of supply out there. Let'scall the demand side the
recruiter side and the supplyside the people side. There are
a lot of people who are going tobe on the street. We already
know the federal government isgoing to be cutting like crazy.
(16:15):
We know a lot of organizationsare basically saying, I'm going
to cut 10% here, 5% there orwherever, some of which came
from, even COVID days of theyhired up a lot of people. Yeah.
But so the supply side isgetting more the demand side is
maybe changing a little bit,maybe not even near that. So
(16:38):
does this create a little bitmore of a buyer's market for the
recruiter to be able to be alittle bit more picky?
Desiree Goldey (16:45):
Yeah. I mean, whenever we get into these with
this market where there was somuch supply, we get pickier and
pickier and pickier, and thenhiring managers get pickier and
pickier, and it's not some and Idon't think then I'm going to
say this, and probably peoplewill disagree. I don't even
think it's the recruiter. Ithink it's the hiring manager,
right? The hiring manager knowsthere's a lot of supply out
(17:07):
there. There's tons ofapplications coming in, and they
can be more picky, and that whenyou see these influx of, like,
1000 people applied on LinkedIn,which, by the way, is not a true
number, but 1000 people appliedin 60 minutes, you know those it
makes a recruiter that much moreable to be pickier, and that
causes what I see as a problemfor organizations who are
(17:32):
looking for the right fit forgrowth. I don't know if I'm
making no,
David Turetsky (17:38):
you're making total sense, but my problem is,
I'm going to say this again, andpeople are probably tired of me,
probably tired of hearing mesay, this is the AI standing in
the way of that recruitergetting the best candidate when
they've got so many. You talkabout 1000 you said, No, it's
not real, but let's just say itis real. Sure, 1000 people
(17:59):
who've already applied, probably10,000 more who would have
applied, but they saw 1000 said,I have no chance. I'm not going
to apply. The AI is goingscrubbing through it and saying,
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, yes,no, no, no, no, no, no, yes, no,
no. Sorry, that's a lot of no's.
But do you see what I'm saying?
I mean, does that make the jobof the recruiter easier or more
(18:21):
difficult.
Desiree Goldey (18:23):
I mean, if you would ask me, it makes it more
it makes it easier, but it alsomakes me potentially miss out on
some really awesome candidates.
David Turetsky (18:35):
How would you as a recruiter deal with 1000
applications? 1000 resumes, 2000coming your way. If you didn't
have the AI in the way, youknow, you didn't have an
automatic screening tool, or,you know, even a screener that
that each person took, like anassessment, a five question
(18:58):
assessment, and the people whogot the five highest scores, or
the where everybody got aperfect score comes your way.
How do you deal with all that?
Desiree Goldey (19:05):
These days, it is a nightmare, right? Even if
we put the best scrubbing tools,we're still getting influxes,
huge influxes, of candidates,just because of the way the
market is right now. And as arecruiter, let's say you're
holding 15 roles, 20 roles, youdon't have time. So your your
assessment of people's resumesis in a second. I mean, if
(19:30):
you've been doing this longenough, like I have, you can do
that, but it still takes a tonof time. And I, you know, I as a
person, am responsible for goingthrough every single one of
those resumes to me, right? Andit's exhausting, and it's mind
blowing, and you don't want tomiss anything, and there will be
misses, right? Yeah, and it'sunfortunate, but it's the way
(19:55):
the world we live in right now,and so you're spending, you
know, less than. 30 seconds on aresume,
David Turetsky (20:02):
so a lot of Red Bull.
Desiree Goldey (20:05):
I mean recruiters. I mean, I think
that's the way we live anyway,yeah. But the other problem is,
you know, I tell people this allthe time on LinkedIn, and this
goes kind of off subject, andI'll talk to, you know, job
seekers a little bit here, butthe when I see these really
unclean resumes that are alljunked up. I don't have time to
(20:25):
assess those the way I have.
That's super clean. And you knowthat for me, if you think about
the 2000 scenario, if, if you'resitting as a person who has to
go through 2000 resumes, yeah,the unclean ones kind of gets
because I don't want time todecipher, yeah.
David Turetsky (20:43):
Are you talking about the ones that have a lot
more formatting? They may have apicture on it, or they may have
a beach scene or something likethat, or that's what I'm talking
Yeah. Okay, so, so your adviceto people is, cut through the
BS, yes, and just put on therewhat you're trying to do to sell
them,
Desiree Goldey (20:59):
right? Just gives me the gives me what you
did and the accomplishments youhad. That's what I need. I don't
need all the other stuff. Youknow, if you want to put a
pretty color in your here onyour name, or make the lines
right purple, I don't care. Butlike, when you start putting
them side by side, and it drivesme insane. But
David Turetsky (21:21):
a lot of times aren't those sanitized. Anyways,
when you upload your resume,
Desiree Goldey (21:25):
not all the time, oh, really, no, sometimes
you get them when you're likeone, and also when they're
unclean, like that, sometimesthey come in the system and it
jumbles everything up. So thenyou have to figure out where
things go. If I have less than30 seconds to decipher whether
you're the fit for the role.
Guess what?
David Turetsky (21:44):
So I got to date myself here, 1989 the advice
that I had from, I guess it wasmy career counselor at Penn
State, or whatever was, it's gotto be on yellow paper. It's got
to be in, you know, typed singlespace center, your name center,
your address center, your phonenumber, and then everything's
(22:05):
got to be left justified. Don'tbe fancy, just put everything
down. And it had to be on thatwhite paper. You had to fold it
the with the cover letter. Iremember those days.
Desiree Goldey (22:14):
I graduated in 96 from college, and I remember
those days as well. And it wasvery, very still, put it on some
real quality paper cover letter.
And they, you know, and, oh, andthat goes back to the cover
letter thing too, right? Andpeople, you know, recruiters, do
read them. I am not one of them.
(22:37):
I honestly do not it lets mespecifically ask for one, or the
hiring manager wants to look atone, or you have some kind of
situation in your resume thatneeds explaining, that is not
explained by the resume. I'm notreading your cover letter
because I just don't have time.
David Turetsky (22:54):
That's great advice, because for all those
people out there that spend somuch time and they I've had so
many conversations about if,what do I put in a cover letter
and they I answer? To be honestwith you, I don't know why
you're writing one, right?
Desiree Goldey (23:08):
Unless it's required to me. I just, and I
still don't know why people arerequiring them.
David Turetsky (23:13):
It's like old times, you know? That's like
ancient stuff, you know,something New York City, 10016,
you know, it's like you got tosend it with a self addressed
stamped envelope if you're goingto get a reply. I mean, you
know, who does that stuff these
Desiree Goldey (23:29):
I don't know, but the technology these days
doesn't even allow for it. Tome, I think we moved past those
days with 80 really complex ATSis and AI in the mix. Now, I
think you know, the cover lettershould be shot and dead
somewhere in a field.
David Turetsky (23:48):
So sorry, cover letter, you've you have an
expiration date. Now, yes,
Desiree Goldey (23:51):
I'm sorry.
Desiree says, So what? Desireesays, God, Desiree killed the
cover letter
David Turetsky (23:59):
went the way of chocolate. Hey, are you
listening to this and thinkingto yourself, Man, I wish I could
talk to David about this. Well,you're in love. We have a
special offer for listeners ofthe HR data labs podcast, a free
half hour call with me about anyof the topics we cover on the
podcast or whatever is on yourmind go to
(24:21):
salary.com/hrdlconsulting toschedule your free 30 minute
call today. So Desiree, let's goto the next question, which is
actually kind of gets back toone of the things that I really
wanted to find out on thispodcast, which was, how does
that disconnect affect employeeengagement and company culture.
Desiree Goldey (24:43):
Yeah. I mean, this one's a great one. You
know? I think when you have thisdisconnect between the messaging
from HR and from talent, youlose productivity, you lose
engagement in the actualculture, like events that maybe
HR is planning. Right? You see adrop in those you get turnover.
(25:04):
You get, you know, lessproductivity, right? I mean, we
it's shown that, you know, badcultures decrease people's level
to produce for an organization.
It's just the truth.
David Turetsky (25:18):
Do you think that some of it's planned? Do
you think that Jeff Bezos or orZuckerberg or Jamie Dimon? I
know I've used them severaltimes in this podcast, they're
good to use. Yeah, but do youthink those are good examples of
where that command and controlkind of culture coming back into
(25:39):
a situation where this thesecompanies grew basically as now
for the last four and a halfyears, maybe five years, on the
backs of remote work. Now you'reslamming on the brakes and
saying, we're making a left turnhere. Do you think that that's
going to impact how people feelabout I mean, obviously it's
(26:01):
gonna change how they how peoplefeel about their work there, but
do you think that that wasintentional by those leaders?
Desiree Goldey (26:08):
Yeah, absolutely, yes. I mean, that's
the short answer of it, but thelonger answer is, what a way to
cut people without having to cutpeople? Let's just say you have
to come back to the office. Youhave kids, you have all these
things going on. Maybe you're aone parent household. Maybe
you're two, even a two parenthousehold. Now we're asking you
(26:29):
to do all these other things,pick up kids, do it becomes a
nightmare. And if you rememberthe meta Facebook days and and
you know, Amazon days, where itwas the coolest place to work,
right? You went there becausethey had, you know, all these
cool things, and, you know, youwere so excited to work there.
Now you're creating a culture ofwhere it's not so cool to work
(26:52):
there. You're in the office, andyou're stuck in there, and,
yeah, I would want to leave. Andif I have, if I have the the
Echelon on my resume, right? Ifpeople look at that as the
echelon of work, yeah, you know,I have the ability to leave
because I do have a meta or,especially in engineering or
(27:15):
Amazon on my resume, and I havethe ability to leave, I would
leave,
David Turetsky (27:20):
well, but let me turn it a little bit now to the
government and where you'regoing to get a lot of people
leaving there. Now, a lot ofpeople are forced to leave. A
lot of people were requested toleave. A lot of people basically
said, I don't want to be inthis. This is kind of nuts right
now. What are they going to do?
Because there are a lot ofpeople they have. They have jobs
(27:43):
like the Forest Service and FAAand, you know, NLRB, they can't
go just anywhere.
Desiree Goldey (27:47):
What are they going to do? It's going to be
super tough. I you know, I wasjust talking to my partner about
this last night. What if I was aforest ranger? Yeah, right.
Where am I going? I mean, don'tyou know, and I'm not saying I
don't have other skills. Maybe Iwent to school for something,
but this, that amount of peoplein those skill sets, they're not
(28:08):
going to equal out, right,especially maybe in my hometown.
Yeah, right. So then there maybe a reload or something that
needs to happen. It becomes anightmare. I said, when this all
started happening. I said, thisis the biggest nightmare
situation I can imagine for thejob market right now.
Absolutely,
David Turetsky (28:29):
I also want to step back and say because I
totally agree with everythingyou just said, Look at the
people who are left. And youtalked about employee engagement
and culture. They've beendemonized the government, the
people the government thepeople, the government
employees, have been demonizedas wasters, as time wasters, as
money wasters, they've beendemonized as being unnecessary.
And a lot of the departmentsthat we're talking about getting
(28:53):
cut they're actually gettingpotentially closed down. Yeah,
like the Department ofEducation? Yeah, we don't need a
Department of Education.
Desiree Goldey (28:59):
Why would we need that? We only our reading
level is seventh grade in theUnited States, and we're good.
Yeah, we're good.
David Turetsky (29:05):
No, we don't need math skills, but, but, but,
I guess my point is, whathappens with the people who are
left, left behind? They're goingto look around going, I'm
sitting in this giganticbuilding. I'm here by myself.
This is a Justice Department.
Okay, there's nobody here. Whatam I going to do? Yeah.
Desiree Goldey (29:22):
How about the workload? Yeah, exactly. Can you
imagine the mental toll it wouldbe to be one of like five people
left in like, the dark educationor something?
David Turetsky (29:33):
And by the way, that could actually happen,
because a lot of peoplevolunteered to leave with the
buyout they were given. And sothere could be that person who
went into the office the nextday and said, Oh, crap, I'm the
only one. Yeah, I can make thebiggest rubber band ball I ever
wanted to make in my life rightnow.
Desiree Goldey (29:52):
And then there were those who accepted the
severance and then told theyweren't eligible for it, right,
right?
David Turetsky (29:58):
It's whiplash.
Desiree Goldey (30:00):
right, but this is the, this is the, this is the
thing I'm talking about when wego back to the original subject,
when there's a state ofconfusion, right? Who suffers is
the employee? Yes, notnecessarily the organization at
a real level, who what? Whosuffers is the employee and the
humans who make that companywork, right? And confusion and
(30:23):
chaos, which is what's happeningright now. It's a whole bunch of
chaos, and it's deliberate chaosis, you know, I think we lose
out on the human part of HR andtalent, right, because now we're
just in this mess, andeverybody's just trying to
survive at this point. You know,when meta came out and said they
(30:45):
were firing all their lowperformers? Well, that wasn't
even true right now, but thesepeople now are labeled low
performers going into the jobmarket. Well, that's a human
being at the other side of thescreen, at the other side of
that resignation, and we've justcompletely like clean, the
empathy of HR talent, anythinglike that. And if it's not put
(31:10):
back in a responsible way fairlyquickly, we're in trouble. And I
will say we're only what 30 daysin, 30 something days into this,
not something, maybe
David Turetsky (31:24):
exactly 30 days,
Desiree Goldey (31:25):
okay, 30 days in to this nonsense, it only gets
worse. It doesn't get better.
David Turetsky (31:32):
Well. And there were so many fears last year and
the year before, about arecession, yeah, and there were
fears about inflation, and we'restarting to see some prices
rise, especially because of eggshortages with the avian flu and
other things. Those are notblamed on the government.
They're just they are what theyare. They aren't what they are.
(31:52):
And what's even more fascinatingis eggs are the basis of so much
food that if egg prices go up,everything is going to go up in
food, even milk. And people arelike, well, what's the
relationship of milk and eggs?
Yeah, just you wait it's gonnahappen.
Desiree Goldey (32:08):
Well, it influences everything
David Turetsky (32:10):
it does, yeah, yeah, and so and so we're at the
start right now. What could be arecessionary time again? I'm not
blaming and this is not politicsat all. This is a recessionary
time where you're going to havea lot of people out of work,
you're going to haveunemployment start rising,
you're going to have inflationstart rising. It's going to
start to be almost a nightmarescenario. And we're going to
(32:31):
look around and we're going tosay, Oh, crap, what are we going
to do about it? And we're goingto look to the government, and
what's the government going tosay?
Desiree Goldey (32:37):
They're probably not going to be much of a
government left well,
David Turetsky (32:40):
but that's, yeah, that's exactly it. The
people who used to be in thedepartment of labor or the
Bureau of Economic Affairs orwherever, they're not there,
right? So it's, it's going to bea situation where, actually, I
heard a report yesterday thatsaid that there's actually a
built Bill tinkering around thatwill lower social security
payments. What? Well, okay, so,yeah, I mean, it gets worse. So
(33:05):
there's a there's a lot that'sgoing to happen that is shaking
the psyche of Americans, shakingpsyche of the world, you know,
and recruiters who are trying tohire good people, they're going
to have a large workload aheadof them, but they're also going
to have to look their leadersand say, Hey, keep the wheels on
(33:27):
right. Don't go nuts on me yet.
Don't change things midstreamfor me, let's be stable and see
if we can withstand this.
Desiree Goldey (33:38):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if I and
again, this goes back torecruiters being a business
partner type of deal, right? Um,you know, I we need to use our
voices in the rooms, becausethis is going to be a time where
it's going to feel oppressiveand it's going to feel like we
(34:00):
are just in a turmoil andtornado. And I encourage those
talent leaders, and you know HRleaders, to be thinking three
steps ahead of where we're atright now, because you might may
not see the fallout today, butin three months, this looks like
a entire chaotic situation forrecruiters, right? You have to
(34:24):
think about your workload. Youhave to think about their
workload. You have to thinkabout the amount of applications
coming in. You have to thinkabout their their own well
being, their mental health,right, you know, and that's
going to be a struggle for a lotof people. And I, you know, I
encourage people to really getinto some self care. If you're a
recruiter or HR right now,
David Turetsky (34:47):
well, I think you said it quite well, which is
talent leaders and HR leadershave to be the appropriate
business partners and raisethese flags, yeah, so that when
they're sitting at the table andthey're having the conversation
with the business leader, I.
Like where you're going withthat, they need to make sure
that that is front and center ontheir minds, about the whip lash
(35:08):
and about making sure culturestays constant, or at least
tries to,
Desiree Goldey (35:11):
tries to right.
Because, you know, I, I'm not,never been a CEO, but if I was a
CEO, it's probably not first onmy mind to think about these
things, but it should be in thefirst of the minds of HR and
talent, absolutely right. Andthey should come together to do
that, not be disconnected intheir voice, to voice those
opinions. And I think thatsometimes it's a struggle for
(35:33):
those two to connect on that,but we need to do it right now,
if, if there ever was a timeit's right now, right it's right
now.
David Turetsky (35:45):
Desiree, I think that's the mic drop moment that
you just said, and I think itwas brilliantly said, and I
can't add anything to it, so Ithink we're gonna call it right
there. I think that is themoment where I say, Wow, this
was a really cool 35 minutesthat we've spent together.
Desiree, thank you so much forbeing on the podcast.
Desiree Goldey (36:13):
I love it. I loved it. You're the best.
David Turetsky (36:15):
No, you are, and we're gonna have to have you
back. And one of the things I'dlike to talk to you about is
looking into talent managementprocesses and how they have to
evolve, especially in the newworld with AI, but we're going
to save that as a teaser for thenext time.
Desiree Goldey (36:33):
Awesome. Thank you so much, David, thank you
David Turetsky (36:35):
and thank you all for listening. Take care and
stay safe.
Announcer (36:39):
That was the HR Data Labs podcast. If you liked the
episode, please subscribe. Andif you know anyone that might
like to hear it, please send ittheir way. Thank you for joining
us this week, and stay tuned forour next episode. Stay safe. You
The world of business is more complex than ever. The
world of human resources andcompensation is also getting
more complex. Welcome to the HRData Labs podcast, your direct
source for the latest trendsfrom experts inside and outside
the world of human resources.
Listen as we explore the impactthat compensation strategy, data
and people analytics can have onyour organization. This podcast
(00:29):
is sponsored by salary.com Yoursource for data technology and
consulting for compensation andbeyond. Now here are your hosts,
David Turetsky and Dwight Brown.
David Turetsky (00:38):
Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs
podcast. I'm your host, DavidTuretsky, and we have a fun one
for you today. We have ourfriend Desiree Goldey. Desiree,
how are you?
Desiree Goldey (00:48):
I am doing so good, David. It's lovely, lovely
Thursday here today in Austin,so I'm doing great.
David Turetsky (00:55):
And I'm in Boston, relative to Austin, and
it's cold. We have not shakenwinter yet, and we're not going
to for at least another, I don'tknow, probably month, and it is
cold.
Desiree Goldey (01:11):
Yeah, we are in this snap freeze that we always
have in February for a week. Soit's cold here too to us, it was
19 last night, so in Austin,that's like the end of the
world, yes?
David Turetsky (01:25):
Well, it's 19 here now, and it's not the end
of the world, but it's reallycold outside.
Desiree Goldey (01:33):
Yeah, yeah.
David Turetsky (01:34):
So Desiree, why don't you tell us a little bit
about yourself?
Desiree Goldey (01:37):
Yeah. So currently, I'm the director of
marketing and culture at ZRGPartners, who are global talent
advisory firm. I also own my ownconsulting company called Do
Better Consulting. I've been inthe talent and HR space for a
little bit, but my backgroundreally started in sales and
marketing consumer foods andhospitality. So
David Turetsky (01:58):
and if you'd see the jacket she's wearing now. It
screams marketing, because it isliterally her brand. She is. It
is an amazing blazer thatbasically has like, tons of
articles. It's a black and whiteblazer. It's just cool. I wish
you could see it.
Desiree Goldey (02:17):
cool things from actual news. So it's actually a
cool, really cool jacket,
David Turetsky (02:31):
and that is how I will describe Desiree. She is
just cool. But before we getinto our podcast today, what's
one fun thing that no one knowsabout, Desiree,
Desiree Goldey (02:42):
yeah, I don't know that. No one knows it, but
most people are going to be alittle shocked. I hate
chocolate.
David Turetsky (02:51):
So that was the HR Data Labs podcast. Thank you
for joining so, so, so, just soyou know, I love chocolate. In
fact, I have to have chocolatein my stomach at least once a
day or I get depressed.
Desiree Goldey (03:06):
Oh my gosh, you're like my partner. So
annoying, so annoying.
David Turetsky (03:11):
So, so it's okay to have it around the house
though
Desiree Goldey (03:13):
it is because I won't eat it, no.
David Turetsky (03:17):
So never a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup,
Desiree Goldey (03:19):
or every once in a while, but it doesn't thrill
me like it thrills other people,and I get
David Turetsky (03:25):
chocolate ice cream.
Desiree Goldey (03:27):
No, I actually don't even like ice cream death,
but,
David Turetsky (03:29):
oh my god, what are you
Desiree Goldey (03:32):
I don't know, but you would wonder why I'm not
super skinny.
David Turetsky (03:36):
Okay, for the record, I don't, and I'm just
saying this. I don't seeanything wrong with you, but,
but that being said, Death byChocolate ice cream with a
chocolate shell on top, to me,is close to heaven as you can
get. And by the way, if you'reeating Death by Chocolate,
you're probably gonna die fromit.
Desiree Goldey (03:57):
a chips girl, I'm a chick. Oh, really. Give me
a big bag of Doritos, and Icould sit there all day. Okay,
it's a problem.
David Turetsky (04:04):
Well, next time I meet you all, I'll send some
Doritos. How about that?
Desiree Goldey (04:08):
Thank you.
David Turetsky (04:10):
So our topic for today is going to be really
cool. It's going to be talkingabout something that is near and
dear to a lot of the people wholisten to our podcast heart,
which is the disconnect betweentalent and HR and how that
impacts recruiting and employeeengagement and culture
(04:33):
Desiree, what is that disconnectbetween talent and HR, and how
can you tell? What are thesigns?
Desiree Goldey (04:39):
Yeah, I think this is a, you know, it's an
interesting fact that I've beenmilling around for years. Is
about why I feel always when Iwork in organizations that have
a HR function and a talentfunction, why there's so much
miscommunication, I feel likethe goals and objective of HR
(04:59):
should. Line with what the goalsand objectives of talent are,
but it doesn't seem to everreally meet and and it causes,
you know, things like highturnover rates, employee
disengagement, misalignments inexpectations and comp and all
these crazy things that start tohappen, but we continually do
(05:21):
the same thing, right? We're notfixing that.
David Turetsky (05:23):
But can you just do me a favor? Step back a
second for one second. What doyou mean by talent? Because I've
been in some organizations wheretalent is recruiting. Are you
talking about talent thatincludes performance management,
succession, com,
Desiree Goldey (05:36):
I'm talking about the full talent scopes and
Talent Management Development,right. I'm talking about the
whole thing. I'm not justtalking about finding a job.
Okay, right? All right, right.
So and again, if you, if you aretalking about talent as a whole,
that disconnect almost becomeseven wider, yeah, between HR and
(05:58):
talent.
David Turetsky (05:59):
So is talent in this world is talent in
underneath the talent underneaththe CHRO, though, yes,
Desiree Goldey (06:04):
well, yes, if you have one, right?
David Turetsky (06:08):
But then, don't you think the alignment, and I'm
not picking on CHRO, there usedto be one, but don't you think
that that alignment needs tocome from the CHRO, if not from
the CEO?
Desiree Goldey (06:18):
Yeah, I totally agree with it, right? We always
talk about it. Everything needsto come from the top. But I do
think that HR leaders and whoare sit underneath the CHRO, and
talent leaders that situnderneath the CHRO tend to
struggle and conflict againsteach other for some reason,
right? They get in meetings andthey just can't seem to agree
(06:39):
what the the end goal is, yes, Iagree the CHRO should be the
ultimate decision maker, right?
But I don't know why we can'teven have those conversations,
up to the fact when we get tothe CR HRO,
David Turetsky (06:53):
is it because the alignment on what things I
mean? Could it be as basic isbeing able to understand what
the goals of the organizationare. Is it understanding the
business? What are thosesymptoms? What, what, where?
Where are we going? Wrong?
Desiree Goldey (07:11):
Yeah. I mean, I think there's a couple of
things. I think there'sdefinitely cultural
misalignment, right? What is theculture we're trying to build
here? What is the, you know, theobjectives and vision of the
company, right? We all, youknow, you can look at a mission
vision value statement and andread it, but what are the true
objectives and expectationsunder those mission vision and
(07:34):
values? And I feel so manycompanies don't do that extra
step, and so then you get thisconstant misalignment and
butting of heads between HR andtalent right as you go down and
drill into it. I hope that makessense.
David Turetsky (07:48):
Oh, it totally makes sense. And I think it's, I
don't want to say lazy, but Ithink a lot of times we put up
that mission, vision values onour website, we point to it a
lot, and we say, well, that's,that's what our goal is. But
they really don't have any wayof being able to translate into
operations, right and, and I'mnot even going to lay this at
(08:08):
the talent leader or the HRleader. It's not really them,
and it's not even the CHRO. Theability to create the right
culture comes from, as you said,the top but it also permeates a
lot of the decisions that aremade throughout the
organization. So you can sayculture as much as you want when
you're in HR, but unless you'rebusiness leaders and your
(08:29):
leaders and your managers andeven your employees, unless they
align to it, it ain't happening.
Desiree Goldey (08:34):
Oh, I totally agree. I mean, we I am. So I'm
actually sick of the wordculture. It's starting to drive
me a little nuts, likechocolate. What is your culture?
What's your culture?
David Turetsky (08:45):
What's your culture? The new chocolate is
what you're saying.
Desiree Goldey (08:48):
I wish that more people talked about the actual
objectives, yes, instead oftalking about the culture like
that, I'm doing air quotes, youknow, because I don't, I don't
know if most people get todefine the objectives of the
culture that they work in. And Ithink you're right.
Operationally, we don't drilldown into what that actually
(09:11):
means. And then we getmisaligned, not just in HR and
talent, but we get iteverywhere, right?
David Turetsky (09:16):
Well, you would have heard it just recently,
where, whether it's Facebook ormeta, whether you're listening
to Jamie Dimon for JP, MorganChase, whether you're talking
about well, the federalgovernment, there has been so
much whiplash that employeeshave had about what's their
(09:36):
culture and how do they act, andhow do they react, and how Do
they service their clients thatI think a lot of employees
struggle to understand, not justculture, but operational. You
know, you're talking aboutgoals, right? Operational,
tactical stuff. How do I get myjob done if my leaders are
saying one thing, but we've beenworking so well the other way,
(09:59):
and I. I kind of like it. Sowhat am I going to do?
Desiree Goldey (10:02):
Yeah, and then if you're a leader in that
organization, right? And you're,you have a leadership style,
you've been doing leadership,you're, you're hitting your
goals, you're doing all thesethings, suddenly you have to
make this huge switch. All ofyour people are freaking out.
You don't know what to do,because you don't even
understand now, we've got hugemisalignment, right, right? And
(10:23):
how you develop those people ina culture that does that, right?
And talent and HR, have to worryabout that. So
David Turetsky (10:30):
tell me you've solved that, and world peace is
next, right?
Desiree Goldey (10:33):
I know, right. I mean, this is not a solution.
No,
David Turetsky (10:38):
no, no. We're just highlighting it now. We're
just highlighting it now, yeah,
Announcer (10:42):
like what you hear so far. Make sure you never miss a
show by clicking subscribe. Thispodcast is made possible by
Salary.com. Now, back to theshow.
David Turetsky (10:53):
Let's, let's go to question two, because I think
this is actually kind of cool,and it does talk to, like, a
little bit of how you deal withthis whip lash, which is, how
does that disconnect, and howdoes that difference in
operations actually impact therecruiting process?
Desiree Goldey (11:09):
Oh my gosh. I mean, we could talk about this
all day, but, I mean, it takesit longer to Yeah, yeah. It
really is an own subject, butlonger time to fill jobs
candidate experience ishorrifying. You know, I just, I
went through this whole thingwith a candidate recently, and
at the end, towards offer, wewent from remote to you are five
(11:33):
days in the office. Can youimagine? No going through six,
like, six interviews, and nowall of a sudden they're like,
Hey, you want it remote, butwe're going to send you right
back to the office.
David Turetsky (11:45):
Well, let me ask you a question about that
Desiree, because that's actuallyvery interesting. What has to
happen within that conversationto resell that person now that
you've changed the game on them,you've literally changed the
content of their job. You'vechanged their role. Now they
have to think about, you know,child care. They have to think
about, you know, commuting. Theyhave to think about a lot of
(12:08):
things or wardrobe. They have tothink about a lot of things that
they they didn't have toconsider before. Where do you
go? Where do you start?
Desiree Goldey (12:15):
Yeah, I mean, in this particular example, I mean,
we had to resell the positionright from the from scratch, and
then you have to sell all theother things that go into the do
the role, growth, opportunity,all of those things that you're
you probably may be highlighteda little bit, but now you have
(12:36):
to dig in real deep and prove tothat candidate that this is
their career path and sometimes,and in this case, it didn't
work, by the way,
David Turetsky (12:45):
yeah, so, I mean, you're right. We're
probably going to dig into thismore than we should. But this,
this again, I'll use the wordwhip lash, this change in
direction, this misalignmentthat occurs. How does that
change the way the recruiterwould actually have to go about
these things if they knew aboutit from the start. I mean,
(13:05):
obviously it's easier to sellsomeone when you're not changing
mid game, you're changing thestory mid game. But it's
literally about the brand.
You're there's a lot of changeabout the brand, especially if
it's very public like meta or JPMorgan Chase, where, you know,
there have been missteps.
Desiree Goldey (13:23):
No, yeah, absolutely. I mean, recruiters
are sales people in the end too,you know. And I think that
they're quick on their feet, andcan adapt to things fairly
quickly, and they can sell thedream even if it isn't the
dream, but Right, but as astalent leaders, and you know, we
(13:47):
shouldn't be putting them orCHROs, we shouldn't be putting
them at in that position, butit's happening every day. So I
think that if you give them thedirective, they're really good.
Yes, they can switch midstream,but if you give them the
directive, and let's say yourculture is horrible, you know, I
know recruiters that could stillsell everything you know, a
(14:08):
dream. So I think you settingthose objectives of what that
looks like for them, it is keyto how they bring in candidates.
Now you can argue with me that,you know, we, you know,
recruiters, that shouldn't be arecruiter's job is to to figure
all of that out. And I, I doagree with that, though I think
(14:29):
recruiters should be businesspartners, yep, right. And so,
you know, I think that they havea responsibility to some of this
as well.
David Turetsky (14:37):
Well, when it changes mid course, well, that's
the worst. That's, that's,that's hard, yeah, but when it
starts out where the requisitionalready says, you know, in the
office five days a week, I thinkit's a little easier, not only
for the recruiter, but also forthe candidates. Yeah, to budget
for those things, and you mightactually get a completely
different candidate pool. Oh,absolutely. Who either? Lives
(15:00):
near the office, or who doesn'tdoesn't mind being in the office
five days a week, or who enjoysit? I mean, obviously there are
people who, you know, lovehybrid, they love remote, but
they also, there are people wholove being in the office five
days.
Desiree Goldey (15:13):
They do. Yeah, they do. And I think if you
again, you know, jobdescriptions for me are
everything you know, laying outas much as you can in the job
description is key, andswitching, especially remote
hybrid in office, to me, is oneand comp, right? Those are the
next thing, but remote in officeand hybrid are one of the keys
(15:36):
to an essential to a good jobdescription right now, because
there are people that have somany expenses, and this job
market is crazy, this economy iscrazy, and they have to figure
that in to what they're evenasking for, or whether the comp
meets their needs. So it gets alittle crazy when we start to
talk about some of these things.
David Turetsky (15:54):
Let me. Let me kind of go back to though, one
of the things that's a littlebit more important for the
impact on the recruitingprocess, which is, now there's a
lot of supply out there. Let'scall the demand side the
recruiter side and the supplyside the people side. There are
a lot of people who are going tobe on the street. We already
know the federal government isgoing to be cutting like crazy.
(16:15):
We know a lot of organizationsare basically saying, I'm going
to cut 10% here, 5% there orwherever, some of which came
from, even COVID days of theyhired up a lot of people. Yeah.
But so the supply side isgetting more the demand side is
maybe changing a little bit,maybe not even near that. So
(16:38):
does this create a little bitmore of a buyer's market for the
recruiter to be able to be alittle bit more picky?
Desiree Goldey (16:45):
Yeah. I mean, whenever we get into these with
this market where there was somuch supply, we get pickier and
pickier and pickier, and thenhiring managers get pickier and
pickier, and it's not some and Idon't think then I'm going to
say this, and probably peoplewill disagree. I don't even
think it's the recruiter. Ithink it's the hiring manager,
right? The hiring manager knowsthere's a lot of supply out
(17:07):
there. There's tons ofapplications coming in, and they
can be more picky, and that whenyou see these influx of, like,
1000 people applied on LinkedIn,which, by the way, is not a true
number, but 1000 people appliedin 60 minutes, you know those it
makes a recruiter that much moreable to be pickier, and that
causes what I see as a problemfor organizations who are
(17:32):
looking for the right fit forgrowth. I don't know if I'm
making no,
David Turetsky (17:38):
you're making total sense, but my problem is,
I'm going to say this again, andpeople are probably tired of me,
probably tired of hearing mesay, this is the AI standing in
the way of that recruitergetting the best candidate when
they've got so many. You talkabout 1000 you said, No, it's
not real, but let's just say itis real. Sure, 1000 people
(17:59):
who've already applied, probably10,000 more who would have
applied, but they saw 1000 said,I have no chance. I'm not going
to apply. The AI is goingscrubbing through it and saying,
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, yes,no, no, no, no, no, no, yes, no,
no. Sorry, that's a lot of no's.
But do you see what I'm saying?
I mean, does that make the jobof the recruiter easier or more
(18:21):
difficult.
Desiree Goldey (18:23):
I mean, if you would ask me, it makes it more
it makes it easier, but it alsomakes me potentially miss out on
some really awesome candidates.
David Turetsky (18:35):
How would you as a recruiter deal with 1000
applications? 1000 resumes, 2000coming your way. If you didn't
have the AI in the way, youknow, you didn't have an
automatic screening tool, or,you know, even a screener that
that each person took, like anassessment, a five question
(18:58):
assessment, and the people whogot the five highest scores, or
the where everybody got aperfect score comes your way.
How do you deal with all that?
Desiree Goldey (19:05):
These days, it is a nightmare, right? Even if
we put the best scrubbing tools,we're still getting influxes,
huge influxes, of candidates,just because of the way the
market is right now. And as arecruiter, let's say you're
holding 15 roles, 20 roles, youdon't have time. So your your
assessment of people's resumesis in a second. I mean, if
(19:30):
you've been doing this longenough, like I have, you can do
that, but it still takes a tonof time. And I, you know, I as a
person, am responsible for goingthrough every single one of
those resumes to me, right? Andit's exhausting, and it's mind
blowing, and you don't want tomiss anything, and there will be
misses, right? Yeah, and it'sunfortunate, but it's the way
(19:55):
the world we live in right now,and so you're spending, you
know, less than. 30 seconds on aresume,
David Turetsky (20:02):
so a lot of Red Bull.
Desiree Goldey (20:05):
I mean recruiters. I mean, I think
that's the way we live anyway,yeah. But the other problem is,
you know, I tell people this allthe time on LinkedIn, and this
goes kind of off subject, andI'll talk to, you know, job
seekers a little bit here, butthe when I see these really
unclean resumes that are alljunked up. I don't have time to
(20:25):
assess those the way I have.
That's super clean. And you knowthat for me, if you think about
the 2000 scenario, if, if you'resitting as a person who has to
go through 2000 resumes, yeah,the unclean ones kind of gets
because I don't want time todecipher, yeah.
David Turetsky (20:43):
Are you talking about the ones that have a lot
more formatting? They may have apicture on it, or they may have
a beach scene or something likethat, or that's what I'm talking
Yeah. Okay, so, so your adviceto people is, cut through the
BS, yes, and just put on therewhat you're trying to do to sell
them,
Desiree Goldey (20:59):
right? Just gives me the gives me what you
did and the accomplishments youhad. That's what I need. I don't
need all the other stuff. Youknow, if you want to put a
pretty color in your here onyour name, or make the lines
right purple, I don't care. Butlike, when you start putting
them side by side, and it drivesme insane. But
David Turetsky (21:21):
a lot of times aren't those sanitized. Anyways,
when you upload your resume,
Desiree Goldey (21:25):
not all the time, oh, really, no, sometimes
you get them when you're likeone, and also when they're
unclean, like that, sometimesthey come in the system and it
jumbles everything up. So thenyou have to figure out where
things go. If I have less than30 seconds to decipher whether
you're the fit for the role.
Guess what?
David Turetsky (21:44):
So I got to date myself here, 1989 the advice
that I had from, I guess it wasmy career counselor at Penn
State, or whatever was, it's gotto be on yellow paper. It's got
to be in, you know, typed singlespace center, your name center,
your address center, your phonenumber, and then everything's
(22:05):
got to be left justified. Don'tbe fancy, just put everything
down. And it had to be on thatwhite paper. You had to fold it
the with the cover letter. Iremember those days.
Desiree Goldey (22:14):
I graduated in 96 from college, and I remember
those days as well. And it wasvery, very still, put it on some
real quality paper cover letter.
And they, you know, and, oh, andthat goes back to the cover
letter thing too, right? Andpeople, you know, recruiters, do
read them. I am not one of them.
(22:37):
I honestly do not it lets mespecifically ask for one, or the
hiring manager wants to look atone, or you have some kind of
situation in your resume thatneeds explaining, that is not
explained by the resume. I'm notreading your cover letter
because I just don't have time.
David Turetsky (22:54):
That's great advice, because for all those
people out there that spend somuch time and they I've had so
many conversations about if,what do I put in a cover letter
and they I answer? To be honestwith you, I don't know why
you're writing one, right?
Desiree Goldey (23:08):
Unless it's required to me. I just, and I
still don't know why people arerequiring them.
David Turetsky (23:13):
It's like old times, you know? That's like
ancient stuff, you know,something New York City, 10016,
you know, it's like you got tosend it with a self addressed
stamped envelope if you're goingto get a reply. I mean, you
know, who does that stuff these
Desiree Goldey (23:29):
I don't know, but the technology these days
doesn't even allow for it. Tome, I think we moved past those
days with 80 really complex ATSis and AI in the mix. Now, I
think you know, the cover lettershould be shot and dead
somewhere in a field.
David Turetsky (23:48):
So sorry, cover letter, you've you have an
expiration date. Now, yes,
Desiree Goldey (23:51):
I'm sorry.
Desiree says, So what? Desireesays, God, Desiree killed the
cover letter
David Turetsky (23:59):
went the way of chocolate. Hey, are you
listening to this and thinkingto yourself, Man, I wish I could
talk to David about this. Well,you're in love. We have a
special offer for listeners ofthe HR data labs podcast, a free
half hour call with me about anyof the topics we cover on the
podcast or whatever is on yourmind go to
(24:21):
salary.com/hrdlconsulting toschedule your free 30 minute
call today. So Desiree, let's goto the next question, which is
actually kind of gets back toone of the things that I really
wanted to find out on thispodcast, which was, how does
that disconnect affect employeeengagement and company culture.
Desiree Goldey (24:43):
Yeah. I mean, this one's a great one. You
know? I think when you have thisdisconnect between the messaging
from HR and from talent, youlose productivity, you lose
engagement in the actualculture, like events that maybe
HR is planning. Right? You see adrop in those you get turnover.
(25:04):
You get, you know, lessproductivity, right? I mean, we
it's shown that, you know, badcultures decrease people's level
to produce for an organization.
It's just the truth.
David Turetsky (25:18):
Do you think that some of it's planned? Do
you think that Jeff Bezos or orZuckerberg or Jamie Dimon? I
know I've used them severaltimes in this podcast, they're
good to use. Yeah, but do youthink those are good examples of
where that command and controlkind of culture coming back into
(25:39):
a situation where this thesecompanies grew basically as now
for the last four and a halfyears, maybe five years, on the
backs of remote work. Now you'reslamming on the brakes and
saying, we're making a left turnhere. Do you think that that's
going to impact how people feelabout I mean, obviously it's
(26:01):
gonna change how they how peoplefeel about their work there, but
do you think that that wasintentional by those leaders?
Desiree Goldey (26:08):
Yeah, absolutely, yes. I mean, that's
the short answer of it, but thelonger answer is, what a way to
cut people without having to cutpeople? Let's just say you have
to come back to the office. Youhave kids, you have all these
things going on. Maybe you're aone parent household. Maybe
you're two, even a two parenthousehold. Now we're asking you
(26:29):
to do all these other things,pick up kids, do it becomes a
nightmare. And if you rememberthe meta Facebook days and and
you know, Amazon days, where itwas the coolest place to work,
right? You went there becausethey had, you know, all these
cool things, and, you know, youwere so excited to work there.
Now you're creating a culture ofwhere it's not so cool to work
(26:52):
there. You're in the office, andyou're stuck in there, and,
yeah, I would want to leave. Andif I have, if I have the the
Echelon on my resume, right? Ifpeople look at that as the
echelon of work, yeah, you know,I have the ability to leave
because I do have a meta or,especially in engineering or
(27:15):
Amazon on my resume, and I havethe ability to leave, I would
leave,
David Turetsky (27:20):
well, but let me turn it a little bit now to the
government and where you'regoing to get a lot of people
leaving there. Now, a lot ofpeople are forced to leave. A
lot of people were requested toleave. A lot of people basically
said, I don't want to be inthis. This is kind of nuts right
now. What are they going to do?
Because there are a lot ofpeople they have. They have jobs
(27:43):
like the Forest Service and FAAand, you know, NLRB, they can't
go just anywhere.
Desiree Goldey (27:47):
What are they going to do? It's going to be
super tough. I you know, I wasjust talking to my partner about
this last night. What if I was aforest ranger? Yeah, right.
Where am I going? I mean, don'tyou know, and I'm not saying I
don't have other skills. Maybe Iwent to school for something,
but this, that amount of peoplein those skill sets, they're not
(28:08):
going to equal out, right,especially maybe in my hometown.
Yeah, right. So then there maybe a reload or something that
needs to happen. It becomes anightmare. I said, when this all
started happening. I said, thisis the biggest nightmare
situation I can imagine for thejob market right now.
Absolutely,
David Turetsky (28:29):
I also want to step back and say because I
totally agree with everythingyou just said, Look at the
people who are left. And youtalked about employee engagement
and culture. They've beendemonized the government, the
people the government thepeople, the government
employees, have been demonizedas wasters, as time wasters, as
money wasters, they've beendemonized as being unnecessary.
And a lot of the departmentsthat we're talking about getting
(28:53):
cut they're actually gettingpotentially closed down. Yeah,
like the Department ofEducation? Yeah, we don't need a
Department of Education.
Desiree Goldey (28:59):
Why would we need that? We only our reading
level is seventh grade in theUnited States, and we're good.
Yeah, we're good.
David Turetsky (29:05):
No, we don't need math skills, but, but, but,
I guess my point is, whathappens with the people who are
left, left behind? They're goingto look around going, I'm
sitting in this giganticbuilding. I'm here by myself.
This is a Justice Department.
Okay, there's nobody here. Whatam I going to do? Yeah.
Desiree Goldey (29:22):
How about the workload? Yeah, exactly. Can you
imagine the mental toll it wouldbe to be one of like five people
left in like, the dark educationor something?
David Turetsky (29:33):
And by the way, that could actually happen,
because a lot of peoplevolunteered to leave with the
buyout they were given. And sothere could be that person who
went into the office the nextday and said, Oh, crap, I'm the
only one. Yeah, I can make thebiggest rubber band ball I ever
wanted to make in my life rightnow.
Desiree Goldey (29:52):
And then there were those who accepted the
severance and then told theyweren't eligible for it, right,
right?
David Turetsky (29:58):
It's whiplash.
Desiree Goldey (30:00):
right, but this is the, this is the, this is the
thing I'm talking about when wego back to the original subject,
when there's a state ofconfusion, right? Who suffers is
the employee? Yes, notnecessarily the organization at
a real level, who what? Whosuffers is the employee and the
humans who make that companywork, right? And confusion and
(30:23):
chaos, which is what's happeningright now. It's a whole bunch of
chaos, and it's deliberate chaosis, you know, I think we lose
out on the human part of HR andtalent, right, because now we're
just in this mess, andeverybody's just trying to
survive at this point. You know,when meta came out and said they
(30:45):
were firing all their lowperformers? Well, that wasn't
even true right now, but thesepeople now are labeled low
performers going into the jobmarket. Well, that's a human
being at the other side of thescreen, at the other side of
that resignation, and we've justcompletely like clean, the
empathy of HR talent, anythinglike that. And if it's not put
(31:10):
back in a responsible way fairlyquickly, we're in trouble. And I
will say we're only what 30 daysin, 30 something days into this,
not something, maybe
David Turetsky (31:24):
exactly 30 days,
Desiree Goldey (31:25):
okay, 30 days in to this nonsense, it only gets
worse. It doesn't get better.
David Turetsky (31:32):
Well. And there were so many fears last year and
the year before, about arecession, yeah, and there were
fears about inflation, and we'restarting to see some prices
rise, especially because of eggshortages with the avian flu and
other things. Those are notblamed on the government.
They're just they are what theyare. They aren't what they are.
(31:52):
And what's even more fascinatingis eggs are the basis of so much
food that if egg prices go up,everything is going to go up in
food, even milk. And people arelike, well, what's the
relationship of milk and eggs?
Yeah, just you wait it's gonnahappen.
Desiree Goldey (32:08):
Well, it influences everything
David Turetsky (32:10):
it does, yeah, yeah, and so and so we're at the
start right now. What could be arecessionary time again? I'm not
blaming and this is not politicsat all. This is a recessionary
time where you're going to havea lot of people out of work,
you're going to haveunemployment start rising,
you're going to have inflationstart rising. It's going to
start to be almost a nightmarescenario. And we're going to
(32:31):
look around and we're going tosay, Oh, crap, what are we going
to do about it? And we're goingto look to the government, and
what's the government going tosay?
Desiree Goldey (32:37):
They're probably not going to be much of a
government left well,
David Turetsky (32:40):
but that's, yeah, that's exactly it. The
people who used to be in thedepartment of labor or the
Bureau of Economic Affairs orwherever, they're not there,
right? So it's, it's going to bea situation where, actually, I
heard a report yesterday thatsaid that there's actually a
built Bill tinkering around thatwill lower social security
payments. What? Well, okay, so,yeah, I mean, it gets worse. So
(33:05):
there's a there's a lot that'sgoing to happen that is shaking
the psyche of Americans, shakingpsyche of the world, you know,
and recruiters who are trying tohire good people, they're going
to have a large workload aheadof them, but they're also going
to have to look their leadersand say, Hey, keep the wheels on
(33:27):
right. Don't go nuts on me yet.
Don't change things midstreamfor me, let's be stable and see
if we can withstand this.
Desiree Goldey (33:38):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if I and
again, this goes back torecruiters being a business
partner type of deal, right? Um,you know, I we need to use our
voices in the rooms, becausethis is going to be a time where
it's going to feel oppressiveand it's going to feel like we
(34:00):
are just in a turmoil andtornado. And I encourage those
talent leaders, and you know HRleaders, to be thinking three
steps ahead of where we're atright now, because you might may
not see the fallout today, butin three months, this looks like
a entire chaotic situation forrecruiters, right? You have to
(34:24):
think about your workload. Youhave to think about their
workload. You have to thinkabout the amount of applications
coming in. You have to thinkabout their their own well
being, their mental health,right, you know, and that's
going to be a struggle for a lotof people. And I, you know, I
encourage people to really getinto some self care. If you're a
recruiter or HR right now,
David Turetsky (34:47):
well, I think you said it quite well, which is
talent leaders and HR leadershave to be the appropriate
business partners and raisethese flags, yeah, so that when
they're sitting at the table andthey're having the conversation
with the business leader, I.
Like where you're going withthat, they need to make sure
that that is front and center ontheir minds, about the whip lash
(35:08):
and about making sure culturestays constant, or at least
tries to,
Desiree Goldey (35:11):
tries to right.
Because, you know, I, I'm not,never been a CEO, but if I was a
CEO, it's probably not first onmy mind to think about these
things, but it should be in thefirst of the minds of HR and
talent, absolutely right. Andthey should come together to do
that, not be disconnected intheir voice, to voice those
opinions. And I think thatsometimes it's a struggle for
(35:33):
those two to connect on that,but we need to do it right now,
if, if there ever was a timeit's right now, right it's right
now.
David Turetsky (35:45):
Desiree, I think that's the mic drop moment that
you just said, and I think itwas brilliantly said, and I
can't add anything to it, so Ithink we're gonna call it right
there. I think that is themoment where I say, Wow, this
was a really cool 35 minutesthat we've spent together.
Desiree, thank you so much forbeing on the podcast.
Desiree Goldey (36:13):
I love it. I loved it. You're the best.
David Turetsky (36:15):
No, you are, and we're gonna have to have you
back. And one of the things I'dlike to talk to you about is
looking into talent managementprocesses and how they have to
evolve, especially in the newworld with AI, but we're going
to save that as a teaser for thenext time.
Desiree Goldey (36:33):
Awesome. Thank you so much, David, thank you
David Turetsky (36:35):
and thank you all for listening. Take care and
stay safe.
Announcer (36:39):
That was the HR Data Labs podcast. If you liked the
episode, please subscribe. Andif you know anyone that might
like to hear it, please send ittheir way. Thank you for joining
us this week, and stay tuned forour next episode. Stay safe. You
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