July 10, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode, we welcome Natalie Tincher, Founder of BU Style & Principal Style Strategist. We unpack the often-overlooked intersection of personal style, workplace culture, and inclusion. Natalie shares insights on how employee authenticity and appearance impact confidence and connection, how the shift to hybrid work is redefining professional norms, and how HR leaders can balance dress code policies with generational expectations and DEI commitments.
[0:00] Introduction
- Welcome, Natalie!
- Today’s Topic: The impact of dress guidelines on workplace authenticity and inclusion.
[5:55] The Impact of Personal Style on Employee Confidence and Connection
- How others perceive style, even if it’s not a personal priority.
- Distinguishing between expression and perceived “work” norms.
[14:32] How Hybrid Work is Redefining Professional Dress Guidelines
- How dress expectations have evolved since the pandemic.
- The challenge for those accustomed to more rigid dress codes.
[22:35] HR’s Role in Balancing Dress Policy, DEI, and Generational Expectations
- The importance of open conversations about dress codes.
- Supporting employee self-expression while respecting workplace values.
- Finding ways for employees to bring more of their full selves to work.
[31:29] Closing
- Thanks for listening!
To schedule a meeting with us: https://salary.com/hrdlconsulting
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Produced by Affogato Media
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Turetsky (00:01):
Welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast now part of
the WRKdefined podcast network.
Join us as we explore the vitalrole of compensation, strategy,
data and people analytics innavigating today's complex
business world with theresources of work defined. We're
bringing you deeper insights andactionable ideas from top HR
experts. Now here are yourhosts, David Turetsky and Dwight
(00:24):
Brown.
Hello and welcome to the HR DataLabs podcast. I'm your host.
David Turetsky, alongside mybest friend, partner in crime,
partner at Salary.com, DwightBrown. Dwight Brown, how are
you?
Dwight Brown (00:37):
David Turetsky, pretty good today. How are you
doing?
David Turetsky (00:41):
I'm sick, but otherwise I'm okay.
Dwight Brown (00:42):
You're always sick, just sick kind a guy.
David Turetsky (00:51):
Good gravy, man.
Dwight Brown (00:52):
Good gravy.
David Turetsky (00:53):
But you know why I'm great today?
Dwight Brown (00:56):
No, why are you great today?
David Turetsky (00:57):
Today, we're going to be talking fashion with
Natalie Tincher. Natalie, howare you?
Natalie Tincher (01:03):
I'm so good.
How are you good?
David Turetsky (01:05):
By the way, for those of you who can't see this
and you can't, Natalie lookspristine, and Dwight looks great
too, and I look like a schlub.
And for those who don't knowYiddish, yes, I am. No
Dwight Brown (01:19):
You're in sick clothes, allowable, yeah, but in
the jam jams,I'm not in JAM jams, I'm in a
sweatshirt.
Well, that's jam jams. To somepeople,
David Turetsky (01:30):
don't you tell us a little bit about yourself.
Natalie Tincher (01:30):
My name is Natalie Tincher. I am New York,
based originally from Logansport, Indiana, small town, but
I've been in, yeah, the rangeoh, poor Knicks. So let's not
talk about I am the founder of acompany called bu style. And we
(01:56):
do personal styling forindividuals. Work with
corporations on dress code,alignment, education within the
workforce. I was former globalstylist for a major news
network, and now I'm here. I'vebeen doing this for 15 years,
David Turetsky (02:12):
we're not going to ask you the news network, but
andI will tell you that that is
quite interesting. You workedfor GE as well in the past,
didn't you?
Natalie Tincher (02:21):
I did not work for GE. In the past, I've had
some clients that worked for GE,
David Turetsky (02:28):
Events Assistant GE Backstage,
Natalie Tincher (02:33):
yeah, I don't know why it pulls up GE on
LinkedIn, it was a very bizarreLinkedIn, okay, but I did work
backstage at BB's Backstage
David Turetsky (02:43):
Okay, so I was wrong, but they have the General
Electric logo,
Natalie Tincher (02:48):
and I contacted them to change that. Once I was
like, this isn't correct. And ofcourse, it went into somewhere
into the abyss, and I stoppedworrying about it.
David Turetsky (02:56):
So if you all know who we are, we talk about
bad data. We talk about data andbad data. Well, that's bad data,
right to misinterpretations andmiscalculations like on this.
Nobody's on the podcast going,well, great job, Turetsky, you
already tanked this episode.
Natalie Tincher (03:14):
This was not your fault. This was not your
fault.
David Turetsky (03:17):
Well, before we get into the episode, let's talk
about the one fun thing that noone knows about, Natalie,
Natalie Tincher (03:23):
oh, yes, you know, I racked my brain on this.
And there's a lot of things thatpeople know, but maybe not in
this podcast. But one thing Idon't think anyone in my life
knows, that I had a very activeimagination when I was a child.
So I would pretend to be WonderWoman, like legitimately, I
would go into the corner and I'dspin around and like in my
(03:43):
brain, I thought I was WonderWoman coming to save something
in the house, but nobody elseknew, because it was secret that
I was Wonder Woman, so secretsout. I am Wonder Woman.
David Turetsky (03:54):
You are Wonder Woman, yeah,
Dwight Brown (03:56):
yeah. I mean, it's all about what exists on our own
heads,
Natalie Tincher (04:00):
right, yes,
David Turetsky (04:01):
Exactly. If you believe that you can achieve
Dwight Brown (04:03):
it, right, exactly. That's awesome. I just
got this middle picture of yougoing into the corner and
flipping around,
Natalie Tincher (04:14):
Speaking of golden lasso are, you know, the
cape. And in my brain, I had itall on. Obviously, no one else
believed it, but I guess, Iguess it's foreshadowing for my
career and the power of
David Turetsky (04:28):
Natalie. It's that you The fact is that a lot
of people grew up looking atLinda Carter as Wonder Woman and
saying, here's this successfulwoman. I mean, they didn't
really understand the WonderWoman origin story, but the
successful woman powerful, morepowerful than a lot of men in
(04:49):
her universe, and that it wasthe outfit that they would
associate with that power. Andso many kids probably grew up
thinking how. I look really doesinfluence my power.
Natalie Tincher (05:03):
It's true. And the messaging of clothing and
what you put on on yourself,there's a term called includes
cognition that is very much likewhat you wear is what you're
going to communicate. Becauseyour body feels this like I'm
putting on something that isprojecting or signifying
something, whatever that is, andthen it goes to your brain, and
(05:24):
your brain actually manifeststhat
David Turetsky (05:27):
probably helps out with a lot of imposter
syndrome as well.
Natalie Tincher (05:31):
Yeah,
David Turetsky (05:31):
But we will get to this.
Natalie Tincher (05:33):
We shall
David Turetsky (05:34):
Our topic for today is the intersection of
dress guidelines and theauthenticity at the workplace.
So Natalie, our first questionis, what role does personal
style play in employeeconfidence and connection?
Natalie Tincher (05:56):
You know, I think it plays nowadays,
particularly, quite a big role,because dress codes have either
completely left the building orthey're very they've they've
cashed down. So authenticity issuch an important part. There
was just a big Harvard BusinessReview project on how now non
(06:19):
verbal communication,authenticity is the number one
part of appearance in thatpillar. And it used to it used
to be different, and now it'sauthenticity as the number one
price prize consideration in thegrout, you know, in in executive
presence. So that's been a bigshift since COVID and but now
(06:40):
it's that intersection of, howdo I stay authentic, but also
respecting the settings that I'min? And there's some difficulty
that I I'm experiencing orhearing from corporations and my
personal clients that are sayingwe don't have a dress code. Now
I don't know what to wear. Like,how authentic? What does
authenticity mean? And I try toeducate on it's a few things.
(07:03):
It's your setting, it's whatyour day is comprised of. It's
who you're going to be around,and it's what you want to
communicate. And so it's not alljust well, authentically, I like
to wear sweats, so I should beable to do what I want. You
know, but I would say theyounger employees don't
necessarily know that, andsometimes they are. There's a
(07:24):
thought that they are justtrying to be rebellious and
skirt the rules, but they alsojust, they were at home during
COVID. They were working from intheir pajamas, so they don't
understand what authenticitymeets appropriateness looks
like.
David Turetsky (07:40):
Well, I grew up in working in New York City, and
when you walk down the street inNew York City, you have every
different facet of not justsocioeconomic climate. You have
every different job, and youalso have every different style
of dress. You have someone who'swalking around in a tuxedo, and
you don't know whether that'ssomeone who's going to a formal,
(08:01):
who's going to their Mater, Dee,or their absolutely CEO, and in
the same way, that person insweats could be the CEO of one
of the most successful companiesin the world. So it's very
strange when you get these mixedsignals in in this cultural
melting pot that is New York,and going on the subway as well.
(08:26):
You know, people withbriefcases, with, you know,
Spanx and, you know, asweatshirt, and other people who
were, you know, with a backpackthat, you know, as an investment
banker, going to, going to ameeting,
Natalie Tincher (08:38):
yeah, yeah.
It's all over the place here.
And, you know, I have clientsthat partners at Big VCs, and
the things we talk about are,how do we keep your style brand
intact, but also adjust to thesettings that you're in? So he
may be in a factory and like,absolutely you're not going to
(08:58):
be in your suit and tie in afactory in the Midwest, but
let's still signify your polishnature, so we do jeans button
down or not even a polo shirt,maybe a jacket and sneakers. So
you're sort of playing bothsides of connecting with the
space that you're in, stayingtrue to who you are, and also
showing that I'm in a positionof leadership. You can trust me
(09:20):
with your money, I know what I'mdoing. And you know, it's kind
of that balance of beingreceptive, but having authority
Dwight Brown (09:27):
and perception comes into that quite a bit. And
the you know, that creates thedifficulty too, because, you
know, the way that I outwardlypresent myself, one person's
gonna view it very differentlythan another person does, and
which makes it very difficult tobe able to kind of figure things
(09:47):
out.
Natalie Tincher (09:48):
It's true. And your first filter is your your
appearance. So it truly is afirst filter, whether we want to
accept it or not and say, oh,you know, I don't, I don't see
that. Or people aren't judging.
I don't care. Well, if youdon't. Care. You still have to
understand people are making,they're making a judgment call
on you based on appearance. Andthere are certain colors, there
are certain clothing cuts,there's certain things that
(10:09):
universally are generally goingto be received in certain ways
versus other things. I
David Turetsky (10:17):
think there's another problem today, which is
that people are expressingthemselves with body art a lot
more as well. And there havebeen court cases with cultural
body art, whether it'shairstyles or piercings or
tattoos, that have reallyseriously challenged cultural
norms about what does it mean,especially in schools like the
(10:38):
what was it the crown laws downin Texas about being able to be
safe in school by having yourhair culturally appropriate,
well, but that's also an area ofconcern now, because there are
many people who are a lot moreopen to being culturally
(10:59):
appropriate, rather than justbeing work appropriate,
Natalie Tincher (11:02):
absolutely. And I think that's a place where
companies have to be aware thinkabout their, you know, dei
initiatives and the language,whether it's coded or not, in
dress guidelines. And I thinkalso, you know, that is where
employee empowerment comes in,and making sure that your senior
leadership team is on the samepage in terms of to what you're
(11:23):
communicating to your employees,like I had a company come to me
and they said, Oh, our, youknow, we don't really have a
dress code. It's just dress foryour day, okay? But then fast
forward in the conversation was,well, we have this employee who
has green hair, and she's, youknow, head of our LGBTQ plus
(11:45):
erg. And how do, how are wegoing to sit and tell her that
she's not going to advance byhaving green hair and having,
you know, and I was,
David Turetsky (11:55):
which is the problem to them, is that she's
LGBTQ plus, or that they havejust green hair,
Natalie Tincher (12:02):
you know? And I said, Well, it sounds like this
is a leadership problem first,because if you're not going to
have guardrails and you're notgoing to communicate those, then
you can't hold that against anemployee who feels like they're
in a place where they they'vebeen told they can express who
they are. They said there aresome things you can do, then
educating on to that point ofthe nonverbal message you have
(12:25):
of saying, you know, maybe ifyou have green hair, but you
want to come across morepolished and professional, maybe
it's how you style it, or maybeit's what you're wearing, then
to create balance, to understandthat I'm creative, or I'm open,
I'm expressive, And also, youknow, I have a blazer on, and
you can take me seriously. Andso it's more about educating on
(12:47):
what clothes could becommunicating. And then the
employees can be empowered tosay, well, I want my workplace
brand to be this or that.
Dwight Brown (12:57):
Well, that's a good way of doing things,
because everything shifts onpractically a daily basis
relative to clothing andexpression and so kind of
bringing you back to that basepoint of, are you going to how
are you going to look at this?
How are you going to communicateit to your employees in a way
that you're not constantlychanging things around for them.
(13:25):
All right, yesterday, today,yesterday, green hair was bad.
Tomorrow, it's great. You knowthat kind of thing well.
Natalie Tincher (13:31):
And there's so many generations in the
workforce now, and so it's also,you know, I always say it's
getting that all the generationsto be on the same page. Of,
there's also that aspect ofoftentimes, the older generation
feels like the only thingappropriate for an office is a
suit and tie, not understandingthat in certain settings, that
also could be a barrier foropenness and what what you want
(13:55):
to achieve. So we've got veryextreme ends of the spectrum and
how people view what I thinkdress codes could be. But then I
think a lot of companies arewashing their hands of it
because they don't, they don'twant to get involved because it
is, it is a tough conversation.
It can be a sensitiveconversation. You're it goes
more than just clothing. You aretalking about race, religion,
(14:15):
sexual orientation, gender, allof those, those things, and so I
think people have decided we'regonna not touch it, but then
there's still implications ofthat. Right
David Turetsky (14:32):
Enjoying the conversation? Don't forget to
hit subscribe, so you never missan episode packed with insights
and strategies. Now, let's diveback in
Natalie. Let's touch on thesecond question, which I think
will bring up some differentissues as well, which is, how is
the shift toward hybrid workimpact the unspoken rules around
professional dress? What's thecost of not actually addressing
(14:54):
them?
Natalie Tincher (14:54):
Well, the return to Office, the high.
Hybrid work schedules that justagain, created a lot of
confusion and completely changedthe way that we view our
closets, and how my clients, inparticular, view in their
closets. We're trying to createwhat I call smart casual
wardrobes, because it feels likethat sort of the middle ground,
(15:17):
which smart casual to talk inspecifics is usually I can wear
nice jeans, nice sneakers and ablazer or button down, whereas
business casual would be nojeans. And so it feels like
there's this sort of space inbetween now of playing in smart
casual business casual, but alot of people don't know what
(15:37):
that is defined as,
David Turetsky (15:39):
Even smart casual and business casual today
are the relics. I've beentalking about that since 1992
When Morgan Stanley introducedcasual Friday, and I had to sit
down with people to talk to him,because I was in the HR
department at Morgan Stanley howthey were dressed
inappropriately. What do youmean? This is casual Friday,
(16:02):
yeah. Well, everybody else iswearing, you know, no tie.
That's how we first started
Natalie Tincher (16:09):
our casual Friday. Doesn't mean the word
casual. And now take post COVID,return to Office, where casual
for most people is many peoplesweats that's truly casual, is
casual, and so that's where Ithink they're having a lot of
difficulty. And people are notdo not want to sacrifice
(16:29):
comfort. A lot of people do notwant to sacrifice comfort. The
other difficulty is that so manypeople that had strict dress
codes before and officeguidelines now that they don't
coming back, they're like, Idon't know how to dress in a
business casual or casual like,they just don't even know,
(16:50):
because they were in suits andties. And so there's this space
where they're like, I don't Idon't even have a wardrobe for
this. I don't even know how toget started, because now I need
to be authentic and I need tohave a style when that's not my
thing like that is I wanted toshow up in my uniform, right, so
to speak. So it's, it's posed alot of challenges. And again,
when offices aren't saying,listen, when you come to the
(17:11):
office, these are theexpectations, at least the like,
base level of dress, like, noleggings. Like that is something
you can say, like, we don't wedon't want sweats, we don't want
like, you could say that, or youhave to say that's okay.
David Turetsky (17:23):
But even that is challenging, because there are
jeans that look like leggings,and they're called jeggings. I
know that because I bought acouple of great pairs of jeans
that I didn't realize wereactually like kind of jeggings.
Okay? Yeah, I'm a 58 year oldguy who is wearing jeggings.
But, yeah,
Natalie Tincher (17:42):
they're comfortable. Comfort, comfort.
David Turetsky (17:44):
Exactly. How do you cross that barrier where
someone will look at me and I'llbe like, Why are you staring at
my pants long enough to be ableto judge whether these are jeans
or not?
Natalie Tincher (17:54):
Yeah? I mean, that's a difficult question, and
that's where, where we're weare. And I think, again, that is
putting I think it's employeeeducation. I truly think it's
not, because when you have theseparameters to your point, like a
jegging to one, people don'tunderstand all the terminology.
And a jegging traditionally wastruly a legging that didn't have
(18:14):
a fly and you pulled it up. Nowthey may call it jegging. It
looks more like a jean, but ithas a certain amount of stretch.
So I think when we have alanguage that people aren't
understanding, there needs to beexamples. There needs to be
people thinking through some ifyou're gonna say dress for your
day, talk through it and say,What does dress for your day
mean? Does it mean I'm meetingin a big meeting with my
(18:38):
superiors and a client comingin. Okay, well, what would I
What should I wear to a bigclient meeting or a pitch versus
I'm working internally with myteam. I have a doctor's office.
I'm on a zoom. I'm popping infor a quick meeting. That's a
different dress for your day.
That could maybe be a jegging,if it's an appropriate jegging
for this setting. But again,it's like, who am I going to be
(19:02):
around? What considerations do Ineed to make in dressing for
your day? Isn't whatever it's tome, it's the 60 seconds to take
walk yourself through your day.
I'm in this meeting. I'm in thismeeting. It's embarrassing to
turn up to a big meeting notdressed correctly, not just in a
place that you're presenting aprofessional image that you
(19:26):
want.
David Turetsky (19:27):
And if you look at Dwight, Dwight always looks
this sharp, right? But if hestood up and he's wearing short
shorts, you know, forget it.
Natalie Tincher (19:34):
Forget it. All.
Trust is out the window.
Dwight Brown (19:36):
People just got a mental picture of that
David Turetsky (19:37):
Dwight. I'm sure there are a lot of people who
are fanboys of Dwight Brown whosaid, yeah, yeah, let's do it.
Dwight Brown (19:46):
We're gonna see the short shorts.
Natalie Tincher (19:49):
That's COVID, that reporter that was in
David Turetsky (19:52):
it. Wow.
Natalie Tincher (19:57):
Know, the shot, no, the
David Turetsky (19:59):
shot. Yeah, there were a lot of
opportunities of that duringCOVID too.
Dwight Brown (20:04):
And you know, there's also this stress level
that goes with complying withpolicies. You know, it's
interesting, because I came froman organization, very large
organization, very formalorganization, and for 22 years,
I wore a suit and tie. Andgetting out of that environment,
(20:27):
it was kind of stressful,because it's like, All right, so
I'm going to look weird if Istill show up in a suit and tie
on my Zoom meetings. But is thatreally? You know, can I dress
down at all. If so, what doesthat look like? And so there's a
lot of stress that goes aroundit. Even when you start to
define these things
Natalie Tincher (20:48):
It's sort of telling everyone they need to,
they need to care about fashion.
When you know, right, you don'tlike everyone has to put
clothing on, at least in thesociety we live in, and it's
going to say something aboutyou. And so now there's this
added level of pressure to yourpoint when it's not this is a
uniform. This is what everyone'swearing now people are looking
at you to say, to look at yourstyle brand as an extension of
(21:09):
your personal brand, which hasbeen buzzed
David Turetsky (21:14):
if you're on camera,
Natalie Tincher (21:15):
if you're on camera, or if you're in an
office, it's not always oncamera. It's if you're walking
into a room, walking down thehallway, what are sure? What are
people thinking
David Turetsky (21:25):
well, and the reason why I bring up on camera
or not is because there are alot of people who have
regulations that say, if you'reon a zoom, you need to be on
camera. We need to see thatyou're paying attention. We need
to see that you're notmultitasking. And we are all,
and have all been guilty ofmultitasking all the time
because we're all ADHD now, andwe just can't help ourselves.
(21:48):
But what that does about yourpersonal style and brand means
is that you're, in some cases,I've seen this as I believe that
the person is unapproachable, oris trying to not necessarily
hide something that sounds alittle harsh, but they're,
they're they're not being asforthcoming as as others are,
Natalie Tincher (22:08):
or as engaged in the conversation, or as or as
interested in the conversation.
I mean, yeah, I think that's asomething. I an unconscious bias
that I have in that, if you'renot on and I can't make digital
eye contact with you,
Dwight Brown (22:25):
exactly, right?
Yeah. Well,
David Turetsky (22:27):
Natalie, I want to get to the last question,
because I think this is one thatI'm really interested in having
two adulter children's they're17 plus and 12 year old child,
(22:48):
and they're all within the worldof LGBTQ plus, which is how can
HR leaders balance generationalexpectations and DEI commitments
when it comes to dress codes,especially as younger employees
challenge traditional normsaround professionalism.
Natalie Tincher (23:04):
I love this question. I don't think we have
I don't think we have an answer.
We have a conversation to havearound this. And I think that's
letting all the voices speak.
And I think it's not having justone set at the top all look the
same. So I think it's havingrepresentation and having a
dialog to say, what is it, youknow, what does it mean to be a
(23:29):
non binary in the workplace?
What does it mean to, you know,look around the room and be
represented, or at least createa space for representation, and
then what does that look like ina professional setting. And so I
think there's that balance ofthis, I can be what I want, I
can do what I want. And I thinkthere's that's where generations
(23:49):
are having a little bit of apush pull of well, this
generation doesn't this, andthis generation this. We need to
cut that language out and justsay, what does it look like now
to be professional in aworkplace but still be able to
show up as who you are. And Ijust think those conversations
need to happen. I think thatpeople are afraid to have them,
because there is either fear ofbeing canceled or there's fear
(24:11):
of being not being able to speakup and use your voice, and so
instead to sit in a room andhave the hard conversations and
be able to ask questions. Ithink all generations need to
say, Hey, I know we if we don'thave a dress code, what are the
expectations that I have? Andthen hold senior leadership
accountable to also say, holdon. They need to say, let's
(24:34):
think about this. Is this anantiquated ideology, or is this
something that is sound and fitsin with what culture we want to
create in our company? Again, Idon't think there's a full
answer. I think, though, we allneed to be a little more open
about talking across the aislesthat I think we generally could
all use everywhere, of havingthis talk like what's
(24:57):
challenging for you as a Gen Zor what's challenging for you as
an LGBTQ plus what's challengingfor you as a person of color,
what's challenging for you. Andhow can we as a company better
communicate to you and betterhelp you feel received as a
professional here,
Dwight Brown (25:16):
really, really being able to channel or kind of
going back to that concept thatwhat I wear, how I wear, it, is
an expression of myself. And soessentially through the
conversations, you're channelingthat through those
conversations.
Natalie Tincher (25:30):
And we accept who you are we
Dwight Brown (25:31):
right exactly,
Natalie Tincher (25:35):
we accept you, but you need to, but
Dwight Brown (25:37):
Exactly.
Natalie Tincher (25:38):
And here is we accept you and we accept you and
and so I think those are theconversations that need to
happen, and people need to stopbeing afraid to have them.
David Turetsky (25:47):
just like you brought up before, with the
person who is head of the LGBTQERG, and she had green hair, or
they had green hair. How muchare we willing to stretch? You
know, what's the breaking pointof? Well, we know you're gay and
we're not willing to deal withthe green hair. Really, that's
(26:09):
the line you're going to draw.
And with DE and I taking anabsolute, horrifyingly more
conservative approach these dayswhere, God forbid you actually
mentioned DE and I on yourwebsite. You know that's a bad
thing. So I guess my questionis, how do people feel authentic
(26:33):
when feeling authentic mightmean that not only you fired,
but or you're just treatedawfully in the context of the
workplace.
Natalie Tincher (26:41):
I mean, I think that twofold, one is, if you're
in a privileged position to beable to select where you want to
work, I think that's the filterfor a place of employment. I was
speaking at to a bunch ofgraduate students once, and
somebody said was in aninterview, and I was told I
needed to relax my hair. And itsaid, Well, should I do it? And
(27:05):
I said, Well, the first questionI would ask you is, if a
company's already making theseassertions, is this a place you
want to work? Obviously, not
David Turetsky (27:15):
everyone to them. Natalie, why would
someone? I mean, that's almostas racist as it gets, when it
get, well, you're black, but wedon't like your hairstyle. Like
what?
Natalie Tincher (27:24):
It's awful.
It's it's actually awful. Imean, my jaw dropped her to
compose myself in this and say,Okay, let's flip it. Let's flip
this to you. And as this, thisis a filter, just as much as
they're interviewing you.
Hopefully this can be afilter.
David Turetsky (27:40):
Hopefully they didnt take the damn job.
Natalie Tincher (27:42):
I don't believe they did, but on that, we are,
you know, the it's tough to findjobs now, so not, we're not all
in those privileged positions.
And so I think if it issomething sometimes, you know
it, you have to make that choicebetween, am I going to be in a
place where I want thatauthenticity. I want to have the
(28:04):
green hair, and I know that I'mnot going to advance now until I
can find another job at acompany that does or you have
that choice to say I'm going tofollow, I'm going to follow what
they need me to do right now soI can get to the place that I
want to get. So then I can leaveand try to have your own I call
me a little subtle rebellion,like I have a scarf that looks
really nice florally on theoutside, but it has little razor
(28:26):
blades on it. And it's my own.
It's my own sense of saying,like, Yeah, this is, this is my
way of feeling my armor, feelingmy rebellion. And so I think you
have those two choices dependingon where you are in your career,
how mobile you are, whatposition you're in, because you
may be in a company that wassuper open, and then things have
changed, and obviously ourclimate's changed, and you may,
(28:49):
you may have to stick it out fora little while right now, and
those are the choices you have
David Turetsky (28:53):
right after the interview. I would have gotten a
tattoo that says, racism sucks
Dwight Brown (28:58):
forehead.
David Turetsky (29:00):
How you doing?
Racism sucks,
Natalie Tincher (29:07):
right? Hi.
Guess where I am now. Muchbetter place, much happier. This
tattoo does not apply to them,
David Turetsky (29:17):
but I also have a concern, because, you know,
religious in a religious way. Imean, there are some people who
want to wear burqas to work.
Hasn't always been a safe placeto wear burqa to work,
especially after 911 and then,you know, there are other
things, like wearing a yarmulkefor Jewish folks, and doing
that, you're basically puttingtargets on yourself about who I
(29:40):
am, and you know how much thismeans to me within the context
of my work?
Natalie Tincher (29:47):
Yeah, I mean, I was it's obviously different
that I was raised Mormon. I'm nolonger practicing. But there's a
certain modesty and garmentrequirement in Mormonism too,
that sometimes uniforms don'twork with. Sometimes.
Expectations don't work with.
And again, that's a I alwaysthink it looks back at your
company culture, who you'rearound. But we don't always have
(30:09):
that choice, especially incertain parts of the country,
where it's not like walking downthe street in New York, where
you can see everything, everyreligion, every every
everything. And so I think thatis where having a supportive HR,
having, you know, places thathave those ERGs, and having that
(30:31):
space comes in, but that'sthat's not, you know, I always
say it's who you are, and ifit's how what you believe in,
and it's really important to youas much as possible, try to find
your space that will supportthat. And you know, it's hard to
sometimes be the target, andit's really brave and really
courageous to be who you are andrepresent what's really
important to you when it's notwhat the rest of the room looks
(30:51):
like.
David Turetsky (30:54):
I've definitely been in a room where I've been
the only person doing one thing,so it doesn't necessarily bother
me,
Natalie Tincher (31:00):
you know, it doesn't me either. And I always
think, well, I'm doing this. I'mwalking so somebody else maybe
doesn't have to deal with this.
The power of an individual canreally shift things. And so
that's where I I think braveryis important, and it's how the
only way we're going to affectchange.
David Turetsky (31:20):
Beautifully.
Said,I think we're going to leave it
on that mic drop moment, becausewe can talk about this all day,
and we don't have all day totalk. So thank you very much.
Natalie
Natalie Tincher (31:39):
Thank you.
Thank you for this conversation.
David Turetsky (31:41):
It's been amazing. Dwight, thank you.
Dwight Brown (31:44):
Thank you.
David Turetsky (31:44):
Thanks for being with us and thank you all for
listening. Take care and staysafe. Thanks for listening to
the HR Data Labs podcast. Don'tforget to subscribe and share
with your network. Also checkout the HR Data Labs Brown Bag
Lunch every Friday on YouTube,stay safe!
Welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast now part of
the WRKdefined podcast network.
Join us as we explore the vitalrole of compensation, strategy,
data and people analytics innavigating today's complex
business world with theresources of work defined. We're
bringing you deeper insights andactionable ideas from top HR
experts. Now here are yourhosts, David Turetsky and Dwight
(00:24):
Brown.
Hello and welcome to the HR DataLabs podcast. I'm your host.
David Turetsky, alongside mybest friend, partner in crime,
partner at Salary.com, DwightBrown. Dwight Brown, how are
you?
Dwight Brown (00:37):
David Turetsky, pretty good today. How are you
doing?
David Turetsky (00:41):
I'm sick, but otherwise I'm okay.
Dwight Brown (00:42):
You're always sick, just sick kind a guy.
David Turetsky (00:51):
Good gravy, man.
Dwight Brown (00:52):
Good gravy.
David Turetsky (00:53):
But you know why I'm great today?
Dwight Brown (00:56):
No, why are you great today?
David Turetsky (00:57):
Today, we're going to be talking fashion with
Natalie Tincher. Natalie, howare you?
Natalie Tincher (01:03):
I'm so good.
How are you good?
David Turetsky (01:05):
By the way, for those of you who can't see this
and you can't, Natalie lookspristine, and Dwight looks great
too, and I look like a schlub.
And for those who don't knowYiddish, yes, I am. No
Dwight Brown (01:19):
You're in sick clothes, allowable, yeah, but in
the jam jams,I'm not in JAM jams, I'm in a
sweatshirt.
Well, that's jam jams. To somepeople,
David Turetsky (01:30):
don't you tell us a little bit about yourself.
Natalie Tincher (01:30):
My name is Natalie Tincher. I am New York,
based originally from Logansport, Indiana, small town, but
I've been in, yeah, the rangeoh, poor Knicks. So let's not
talk about I am the founder of acompany called bu style. And we
(01:56):
do personal styling forindividuals. Work with
corporations on dress code,alignment, education within the
workforce. I was former globalstylist for a major news
network, and now I'm here. I'vebeen doing this for 15 years,
David Turetsky (02:12):
we're not going to ask you the news network, but
andI will tell you that that is
quite interesting. You workedfor GE as well in the past,
didn't you?
Natalie Tincher (02:21):
I did not work for GE. In the past, I've had
some clients that worked for GE,
David Turetsky (02:28):
Events Assistant GE Backstage,
Natalie Tincher (02:33):
yeah, I don't know why it pulls up GE on
LinkedIn, it was a very bizarreLinkedIn, okay, but I did work
backstage at BB's Backstage
David Turetsky (02:43):
Okay, so I was wrong, but they have the General
Electric logo,
Natalie Tincher (02:48):
and I contacted them to change that. Once I was
like, this isn't correct. And ofcourse, it went into somewhere
into the abyss, and I stoppedworrying about it.
David Turetsky (02:56):
So if you all know who we are, we talk about
bad data. We talk about data andbad data. Well, that's bad data,
right to misinterpretations andmiscalculations like on this.
Nobody's on the podcast going,well, great job, Turetsky, you
already tanked this episode.
Natalie Tincher (03:14):
This was not your fault. This was not your
fault.
David Turetsky (03:17):
Well, before we get into the episode, let's talk
about the one fun thing that noone knows about, Natalie,
Natalie Tincher (03:23):
oh, yes, you know, I racked my brain on this.
And there's a lot of things thatpeople know, but maybe not in
this podcast. But one thing Idon't think anyone in my life
knows, that I had a very activeimagination when I was a child.
So I would pretend to be WonderWoman, like legitimately, I
would go into the corner and I'dspin around and like in my
(03:43):
brain, I thought I was WonderWoman coming to save something
in the house, but nobody elseknew, because it was secret that
I was Wonder Woman, so secretsout. I am Wonder Woman.
David Turetsky (03:54):
You are Wonder Woman, yeah,
Dwight Brown (03:56):
yeah. I mean, it's all about what exists on our own
heads,
Natalie Tincher (04:00):
right, yes,
David Turetsky (04:01):
Exactly. If you believe that you can achieve
Dwight Brown (04:03):
it, right, exactly. That's awesome. I just
got this middle picture of yougoing into the corner and
flipping around,
Natalie Tincher (04:14):
Speaking of golden lasso are, you know, the
cape. And in my brain, I had itall on. Obviously, no one else
believed it, but I guess, Iguess it's foreshadowing for my
career and the power of
David Turetsky (04:28):
Natalie. It's that you The fact is that a lot
of people grew up looking atLinda Carter as Wonder Woman and
saying, here's this successfulwoman. I mean, they didn't
really understand the WonderWoman origin story, but the
successful woman powerful, morepowerful than a lot of men in
(04:49):
her universe, and that it wasthe outfit that they would
associate with that power. Andso many kids probably grew up
thinking how. I look really doesinfluence my power.
Natalie Tincher (05:03):
It's true. And the messaging of clothing and
what you put on on yourself,there's a term called includes
cognition that is very much likewhat you wear is what you're
going to communicate. Becauseyour body feels this like I'm
putting on something that isprojecting or signifying
something, whatever that is, andthen it goes to your brain, and
(05:24):
your brain actually manifeststhat
David Turetsky (05:27):
probably helps out with a lot of imposter
syndrome as well.
Natalie Tincher (05:31):
Yeah,
David Turetsky (05:31):
But we will get to this.
Natalie Tincher (05:33):
We shall
David Turetsky (05:34):
Our topic for today is the intersection of
dress guidelines and theauthenticity at the workplace.
So Natalie, our first questionis, what role does personal
style play in employeeconfidence and connection?
Natalie Tincher (05:56):
You know, I think it plays nowadays,
particularly, quite a big role,because dress codes have either
completely left the building orthey're very they've they've
cashed down. So authenticity issuch an important part. There
was just a big Harvard BusinessReview project on how now non
(06:19):
verbal communication,authenticity is the number one
part of appearance in thatpillar. And it used to it used
to be different, and now it'sauthenticity as the number one
price prize consideration in thegrout, you know, in in executive
presence. So that's been a bigshift since COVID and but now
(06:40):
it's that intersection of, howdo I stay authentic, but also
respecting the settings that I'min? And there's some difficulty
that I I'm experiencing orhearing from corporations and my
personal clients that are sayingwe don't have a dress code. Now
I don't know what to wear. Like,how authentic? What does
authenticity mean? And I try toeducate on it's a few things.
(07:03):
It's your setting, it's whatyour day is comprised of. It's
who you're going to be around,and it's what you want to
communicate. And so it's not alljust well, authentically, I like
to wear sweats, so I should beable to do what I want. You
know, but I would say theyounger employees don't
necessarily know that, andsometimes they are. There's a
(07:24):
thought that they are justtrying to be rebellious and
skirt the rules, but they alsojust, they were at home during
COVID. They were working from intheir pajamas, so they don't
understand what authenticitymeets appropriateness looks
like.
David Turetsky (07:40):
Well, I grew up in working in New York City, and
when you walk down the street inNew York City, you have every
different facet of not justsocioeconomic climate. You have
every different job, and youalso have every different style
of dress. You have someone who'swalking around in a tuxedo, and
you don't know whether that'ssomeone who's going to a formal,
(08:01):
who's going to their Mater, Dee,or their absolutely CEO, and in
the same way, that person insweats could be the CEO of one
of the most successful companiesin the world. So it's very
strange when you get these mixedsignals in in this cultural
melting pot that is New York,and going on the subway as well.
(08:26):
You know, people withbriefcases, with, you know,
Spanx and, you know, asweatshirt, and other people who
were, you know, with a backpackthat, you know, as an investment
banker, going to, going to ameeting,
Natalie Tincher (08:38):
yeah, yeah.
It's all over the place here.
And, you know, I have clientsthat partners at Big VCs, and
the things we talk about are,how do we keep your style brand
intact, but also adjust to thesettings that you're in? So he
may be in a factory and like,absolutely you're not going to
(08:58):
be in your suit and tie in afactory in the Midwest, but
let's still signify your polishnature, so we do jeans button
down or not even a polo shirt,maybe a jacket and sneakers. So
you're sort of playing bothsides of connecting with the
space that you're in, stayingtrue to who you are, and also
showing that I'm in a positionof leadership. You can trust me
(09:20):
with your money, I know what I'mdoing. And you know, it's kind
of that balance of beingreceptive, but having authority
Dwight Brown (09:27):
and perception comes into that quite a bit. And
the you know, that creates thedifficulty too, because, you
know, the way that I outwardlypresent myself, one person's
gonna view it very differentlythan another person does, and
which makes it very difficult tobe able to kind of figure things
(09:47):
out.
Natalie Tincher (09:48):
It's true. And your first filter is your your
appearance. So it truly is afirst filter, whether we want to
accept it or not and say, oh,you know, I don't, I don't see
that. Or people aren't judging.
I don't care. Well, if youdon't. Care. You still have to
understand people are making,they're making a judgment call
on you based on appearance. Andthere are certain colors, there
are certain clothing cuts,there's certain things that
(10:09):
universally are generally goingto be received in certain ways
versus other things. I
David Turetsky (10:17):
think there's another problem today, which is
that people are expressingthemselves with body art a lot
more as well. And there havebeen court cases with cultural
body art, whether it'shairstyles or piercings or
tattoos, that have reallyseriously challenged cultural
norms about what does it mean,especially in schools like the
(10:38):
what was it the crown laws downin Texas about being able to be
safe in school by having yourhair culturally appropriate,
well, but that's also an area ofconcern now, because there are
many people who are a lot moreopen to being culturally
(10:59):
appropriate, rather than justbeing work appropriate,
Natalie Tincher (11:02):
absolutely. And I think that's a place where
companies have to be aware thinkabout their, you know, dei
initiatives and the language,whether it's coded or not, in
dress guidelines. And I thinkalso, you know, that is where
employee empowerment comes in,and making sure that your senior
leadership team is on the samepage in terms of to what you're
(11:23):
communicating to your employees,like I had a company come to me
and they said, Oh, our, youknow, we don't really have a
dress code. It's just dress foryour day, okay? But then fast
forward in the conversation was,well, we have this employee who
has green hair, and she's, youknow, head of our LGBTQ plus
(11:45):
erg. And how do, how are wegoing to sit and tell her that
she's not going to advance byhaving green hair and having,
you know, and I was,
David Turetsky (11:55):
which is the problem to them, is that she's
LGBTQ plus, or that they havejust green hair,
Natalie Tincher (12:02):
you know? And I said, Well, it sounds like this
is a leadership problem first,because if you're not going to
have guardrails and you're notgoing to communicate those, then
you can't hold that against anemployee who feels like they're
in a place where they they'vebeen told they can express who
they are. They said there aresome things you can do, then
educating on to that point ofthe nonverbal message you have
(12:25):
of saying, you know, maybe ifyou have green hair, but you
want to come across morepolished and professional, maybe
it's how you style it, or maybeit's what you're wearing, then
to create balance, to understandthat I'm creative, or I'm open,
I'm expressive, And also, youknow, I have a blazer on, and
you can take me seriously. Andso it's more about educating on
(12:47):
what clothes could becommunicating. And then the
employees can be empowered tosay, well, I want my workplace
brand to be this or that.
Dwight Brown (12:57):
Well, that's a good way of doing things,
because everything shifts onpractically a daily basis
relative to clothing andexpression and so kind of
bringing you back to that basepoint of, are you going to how
are you going to look at this?
How are you going to communicateit to your employees in a way
that you're not constantlychanging things around for them.
(13:25):
All right, yesterday, today,yesterday, green hair was bad.
Tomorrow, it's great. You knowthat kind of thing well.
Natalie Tincher (13:31):
And there's so many generations in the
workforce now, and so it's also,you know, I always say it's
getting that all the generationsto be on the same page. Of,
there's also that aspect ofoftentimes, the older generation
feels like the only thingappropriate for an office is a
suit and tie, not understandingthat in certain settings, that
also could be a barrier foropenness and what what you want
(13:55):
to achieve. So we've got veryextreme ends of the spectrum and
how people view what I thinkdress codes could be. But then I
think a lot of companies arewashing their hands of it
because they don't, they don'twant to get involved because it
is, it is a tough conversation.
It can be a sensitiveconversation. You're it goes
more than just clothing. You aretalking about race, religion,
(14:15):
sexual orientation, gender, allof those, those things, and so I
think people have decided we'regonna not touch it, but then
there's still implications ofthat. Right
David Turetsky (14:32):
Enjoying the conversation? Don't forget to
hit subscribe, so you never missan episode packed with insights
and strategies. Now, let's diveback in
Natalie. Let's touch on thesecond question, which I think
will bring up some differentissues as well, which is, how is
the shift toward hybrid workimpact the unspoken rules around
professional dress? What's thecost of not actually addressing
(14:54):
them?
Natalie Tincher (14:54):
Well, the return to Office, the high.
Hybrid work schedules that justagain, created a lot of
confusion and completely changedthe way that we view our
closets, and how my clients, inparticular, view in their
closets. We're trying to createwhat I call smart casual
wardrobes, because it feels likethat sort of the middle ground,
(15:17):
which smart casual to talk inspecifics is usually I can wear
nice jeans, nice sneakers and ablazer or button down, whereas
business casual would be nojeans. And so it feels like
there's this sort of space inbetween now of playing in smart
casual business casual, but alot of people don't know what
(15:37):
that is defined as,
David Turetsky (15:39):
Even smart casual and business casual today
are the relics. I've beentalking about that since 1992
When Morgan Stanley introducedcasual Friday, and I had to sit
down with people to talk to him,because I was in the HR
department at Morgan Stanley howthey were dressed
inappropriately. What do youmean? This is casual Friday,
(16:02):
yeah. Well, everybody else iswearing, you know, no tie.
That's how we first started
Natalie Tincher (16:09):
our casual Friday. Doesn't mean the word
casual. And now take post COVID,return to Office, where casual
for most people is many peoplesweats that's truly casual, is
casual, and so that's where Ithink they're having a lot of
difficulty. And people are notdo not want to sacrifice
(16:29):
comfort. A lot of people do notwant to sacrifice comfort. The
other difficulty is that so manypeople that had strict dress
codes before and officeguidelines now that they don't
coming back, they're like, Idon't know how to dress in a
business casual or casual like,they just don't even know,
(16:50):
because they were in suits andties. And so there's this space
where they're like, I don't Idon't even have a wardrobe for
this. I don't even know how toget started, because now I need
to be authentic and I need tohave a style when that's not my
thing like that is I wanted toshow up in my uniform, right, so
to speak. So it's, it's posed alot of challenges. And again,
when offices aren't saying,listen, when you come to the
(17:11):
office, these are theexpectations, at least the like,
base level of dress, like, noleggings. Like that is something
you can say, like, we don't wedon't want sweats, we don't want
like, you could say that, or youhave to say that's okay.
David Turetsky (17:23):
But even that is challenging, because there are
jeans that look like leggings,and they're called jeggings. I
know that because I bought acouple of great pairs of jeans
that I didn't realize wereactually like kind of jeggings.
Okay? Yeah, I'm a 58 year oldguy who is wearing jeggings.
But, yeah,
Natalie Tincher (17:42):
they're comfortable. Comfort, comfort.
David Turetsky (17:44):
Exactly. How do you cross that barrier where
someone will look at me and I'llbe like, Why are you staring at
my pants long enough to be ableto judge whether these are jeans
or not?
Natalie Tincher (17:54):
Yeah? I mean, that's a difficult question, and
that's where, where we're weare. And I think, again, that is
putting I think it's employeeeducation. I truly think it's
not, because when you have theseparameters to your point, like a
jegging to one, people don'tunderstand all the terminology.
And a jegging traditionally wastruly a legging that didn't have
(18:14):
a fly and you pulled it up. Nowthey may call it jegging. It
looks more like a jean, but ithas a certain amount of stretch.
So I think when we have alanguage that people aren't
understanding, there needs to beexamples. There needs to be
people thinking through some ifyou're gonna say dress for your
day, talk through it and say,What does dress for your day
mean? Does it mean I'm meetingin a big meeting with my
(18:38):
superiors and a client comingin. Okay, well, what would I
What should I wear to a bigclient meeting or a pitch versus
I'm working internally with myteam. I have a doctor's office.
I'm on a zoom. I'm popping infor a quick meeting. That's a
different dress for your day.
That could maybe be a jegging,if it's an appropriate jegging
for this setting. But again,it's like, who am I going to be
(19:02):
around? What considerations do Ineed to make in dressing for
your day? Isn't whatever it's tome, it's the 60 seconds to take
walk yourself through your day.
I'm in this meeting. I'm in thismeeting. It's embarrassing to
turn up to a big meeting notdressed correctly, not just in a
place that you're presenting aprofessional image that you
(19:26):
want.
David Turetsky (19:27):
And if you look at Dwight, Dwight always looks
this sharp, right? But if hestood up and he's wearing short
shorts, you know, forget it.
Natalie Tincher (19:34):
Forget it. All.
Trust is out the window.
Dwight Brown (19:36):
People just got a mental picture of that
David Turetsky (19:37):
Dwight. I'm sure there are a lot of people who
are fanboys of Dwight Brown whosaid, yeah, yeah, let's do it.
Dwight Brown (19:46):
We're gonna see the short shorts.
Natalie Tincher (19:49):
That's COVID, that reporter that was in
David Turetsky (19:52):
it. Wow.
Natalie Tincher (19:57):
Know, the shot, no, the
David Turetsky (19:59):
shot. Yeah, there were a lot of
opportunities of that duringCOVID too.
Dwight Brown (20:04):
And you know, there's also this stress level
that goes with complying withpolicies. You know, it's
interesting, because I came froman organization, very large
organization, very formalorganization, and for 22 years,
I wore a suit and tie. Andgetting out of that environment,
(20:27):
it was kind of stressful,because it's like, All right, so
I'm going to look weird if Istill show up in a suit and tie
on my Zoom meetings. But is thatreally? You know, can I dress
down at all. If so, what doesthat look like? And so there's a
lot of stress that goes aroundit. Even when you start to
define these things
Natalie Tincher (20:48):
It's sort of telling everyone they need to,
they need to care about fashion.
When you know, right, you don'tlike everyone has to put
clothing on, at least in thesociety we live in, and it's
going to say something aboutyou. And so now there's this
added level of pressure to yourpoint when it's not this is a
uniform. This is what everyone'swearing now people are looking
at you to say, to look at yourstyle brand as an extension of
(21:09):
your personal brand, which hasbeen buzzed
David Turetsky (21:14):
if you're on camera,
Natalie Tincher (21:15):
if you're on camera, or if you're in an
office, it's not always oncamera. It's if you're walking
into a room, walking down thehallway, what are sure? What are
people thinking
David Turetsky (21:25):
well, and the reason why I bring up on camera
or not is because there are alot of people who have
regulations that say, if you'reon a zoom, you need to be on
camera. We need to see thatyou're paying attention. We need
to see that you're notmultitasking. And we are all,
and have all been guilty ofmultitasking all the time
because we're all ADHD now, andwe just can't help ourselves.
(21:48):
But what that does about yourpersonal style and brand means
is that you're, in some cases,I've seen this as I believe that
the person is unapproachable, oris trying to not necessarily
hide something that sounds alittle harsh, but they're,
they're they're not being asforthcoming as as others are,
Natalie Tincher (22:08):
or as engaged in the conversation, or as or as
interested in the conversation.
I mean, yeah, I think that's asomething. I an unconscious bias
that I have in that, if you'renot on and I can't make digital
eye contact with you,
Dwight Brown (22:25):
exactly, right?
Yeah. Well,
David Turetsky (22:27):
Natalie, I want to get to the last question,
because I think this is one thatI'm really interested in having
two adulter children's they're17 plus and 12 year old child,
(22:48):
and they're all within the worldof LGBTQ plus, which is how can
HR leaders balance generationalexpectations and DEI commitments
when it comes to dress codes,especially as younger employees
challenge traditional normsaround professionalism.
Natalie Tincher (23:04):
I love this question. I don't think we have
I don't think we have an answer.
We have a conversation to havearound this. And I think that's
letting all the voices speak.
And I think it's not having justone set at the top all look the
same. So I think it's havingrepresentation and having a
dialog to say, what is it, youknow, what does it mean to be a
(23:29):
non binary in the workplace?
What does it mean to, you know,look around the room and be
represented, or at least createa space for representation, and
then what does that look like ina professional setting. And so I
think there's that balance ofthis, I can be what I want, I
can do what I want. And I thinkthere's that's where generations
(23:49):
are having a little bit of apush pull of well, this
generation doesn't this, andthis generation this. We need to
cut that language out and justsay, what does it look like now
to be professional in aworkplace but still be able to
show up as who you are. And Ijust think those conversations
need to happen. I think thatpeople are afraid to have them,
because there is either fear ofbeing canceled or there's fear
(24:11):
of being not being able to speakup and use your voice, and so
instead to sit in a room andhave the hard conversations and
be able to ask questions. Ithink all generations need to
say, Hey, I know we if we don'thave a dress code, what are the
expectations that I have? Andthen hold senior leadership
accountable to also say, holdon. They need to say, let's
(24:34):
think about this. Is this anantiquated ideology, or is this
something that is sound and fitsin with what culture we want to
create in our company? Again, Idon't think there's a full
answer. I think, though, we allneed to be a little more open
about talking across the aislesthat I think we generally could
all use everywhere, of havingthis talk like what's
(24:57):
challenging for you as a Gen Zor what's challenging for you as
an LGBTQ plus what's challengingfor you as a person of color,
what's challenging for you. Andhow can we as a company better
communicate to you and betterhelp you feel received as a
professional here,
Dwight Brown (25:16):
really, really being able to channel or kind of
going back to that concept thatwhat I wear, how I wear, it, is
an expression of myself. And soessentially through the
conversations, you're channelingthat through those
conversations.
Natalie Tincher (25:30):
And we accept who you are we
Dwight Brown (25:31):
right exactly,
Natalie Tincher (25:35):
we accept you, but you need to, but
Dwight Brown (25:37):
Exactly.
Natalie Tincher (25:38):
And here is we accept you and we accept you and
and so I think those are theconversations that need to
happen, and people need to stopbeing afraid to have them.
David Turetsky (25:47):
just like you brought up before, with the
person who is head of the LGBTQERG, and she had green hair, or
they had green hair. How muchare we willing to stretch? You
know, what's the breaking pointof? Well, we know you're gay and
we're not willing to deal withthe green hair. Really, that's
(26:09):
the line you're going to draw.
And with DE and I taking anabsolute, horrifyingly more
conservative approach these dayswhere, God forbid you actually
mentioned DE and I on yourwebsite. You know that's a bad
thing. So I guess my questionis, how do people feel authentic
(26:33):
when feeling authentic mightmean that not only you fired,
but or you're just treatedawfully in the context of the
workplace.
Natalie Tincher (26:41):
I mean, I think that twofold, one is, if you're
in a privileged position to beable to select where you want to
work, I think that's the filterfor a place of employment. I was
speaking at to a bunch ofgraduate students once, and
somebody said was in aninterview, and I was told I
needed to relax my hair. And itsaid, Well, should I do it? And
(27:05):
I said, Well, the first questionI would ask you is, if a
company's already making theseassertions, is this a place you
want to work? Obviously, not
David Turetsky (27:15):
everyone to them. Natalie, why would
someone? I mean, that's almostas racist as it gets, when it
get, well, you're black, but wedon't like your hairstyle. Like
what?
Natalie Tincher (27:24):
It's awful.
It's it's actually awful. Imean, my jaw dropped her to
compose myself in this and say,Okay, let's flip it. Let's flip
this to you. And as this, thisis a filter, just as much as
they're interviewing you.
Hopefully this can be afilter.
David Turetsky (27:40):
Hopefully they didnt take the damn job.
Natalie Tincher (27:42):
I don't believe they did, but on that, we are,
you know, the it's tough to findjobs now, so not, we're not all
in those privileged positions.
And so I think if it issomething sometimes, you know
it, you have to make that choicebetween, am I going to be in a
place where I want thatauthenticity. I want to have the
(28:04):
green hair, and I know that I'mnot going to advance now until I
can find another job at acompany that does or you have
that choice to say I'm going tofollow, I'm going to follow what
they need me to do right now soI can get to the place that I
want to get. So then I can leaveand try to have your own I call
me a little subtle rebellion,like I have a scarf that looks
really nice florally on theoutside, but it has little razor
(28:26):
blades on it. And it's my own.
It's my own sense of saying,like, Yeah, this is, this is my
way of feeling my armor, feelingmy rebellion. And so I think you
have those two choices dependingon where you are in your career,
how mobile you are, whatposition you're in, because you
may be in a company that wassuper open, and then things have
changed, and obviously ourclimate's changed, and you may,
(28:49):
you may have to stick it out fora little while right now, and
those are the choices you have
David Turetsky (28:53):
right after the interview. I would have gotten a
tattoo that says, racism sucks
Dwight Brown (28:58):
forehead.
David Turetsky (29:00):
How you doing?
Racism sucks,
Natalie Tincher (29:07):
right? Hi.
Guess where I am now. Muchbetter place, much happier. This
tattoo does not apply to them,
David Turetsky (29:17):
but I also have a concern, because, you know,
religious in a religious way. Imean, there are some people who
want to wear burqas to work.
Hasn't always been a safe placeto wear burqa to work,
especially after 911 and then,you know, there are other
things, like wearing a yarmulkefor Jewish folks, and doing
that, you're basically puttingtargets on yourself about who I
(29:40):
am, and you know how much thismeans to me within the context
of my work?
Natalie Tincher (29:47):
Yeah, I mean, I was it's obviously different
that I was raised Mormon. I'm nolonger practicing. But there's a
certain modesty and garmentrequirement in Mormonism too,
that sometimes uniforms don'twork with. Sometimes.
Expectations don't work with.
And again, that's a I alwaysthink it looks back at your
company culture, who you'rearound. But we don't always have
(30:09):
that choice, especially incertain parts of the country,
where it's not like walking downthe street in New York, where
you can see everything, everyreligion, every every
everything. And so I think thatis where having a supportive HR,
having, you know, places thathave those ERGs, and having that
(30:31):
space comes in, but that'sthat's not, you know, I always
say it's who you are, and ifit's how what you believe in,
and it's really important to youas much as possible, try to find
your space that will supportthat. And you know, it's hard to
sometimes be the target, andit's really brave and really
courageous to be who you are andrepresent what's really
important to you when it's notwhat the rest of the room looks
(30:51):
like.
David Turetsky (30:54):
I've definitely been in a room where I've been
the only person doing one thing,so it doesn't necessarily bother
me,
Natalie Tincher (31:00):
you know, it doesn't me either. And I always
think, well, I'm doing this. I'mwalking so somebody else maybe
doesn't have to deal with this.
The power of an individual canreally shift things. And so
that's where I I think braveryis important, and it's how the
only way we're going to affectchange.
David Turetsky (31:20):
Beautifully.
Said,I think we're going to leave it
on that mic drop moment, becausewe can talk about this all day,
and we don't have all day totalk. So thank you very much.
Natalie
Natalie Tincher (31:39):
Thank you.
Thank you for this conversation.
David Turetsky (31:41):
It's been amazing. Dwight, thank you.
Dwight Brown (31:44):
Thank you.
David Turetsky (31:44):
Thanks for being with us and thank you all for
listening. Take care and staysafe. Thanks for listening to
the HR Data Labs podcast. Don'tforget to subscribe and share
with your network. Also checkout the HR Data Labs Brown Bag
Lunch every Friday on YouTube,stay safe!
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