May 22, 2025 • 33 mins
Sarah Katherine Schmidt, Vice President at Peoplelogic, joins us this episode to discuss why performance management fails so many employees today and how improving performance management increases employee engagement and retention.
[0:00] Introduction
- Welcome, Sarah!
- Today’s Topic: Revolutionizing Performance Management for Today's Workforce
[4:27] Why Sarah advocates for agile performance reviews
- How regular feedback reduces recency bias and improves accuracy
- Why psychological safety should be built into an organization’s promise to its employees
[13:24] How does agile performance management help improve engagement and retention?
- Addressing the needs of the varied generations in the modern workforce
- How to bring managers and employees onto the same page
[24:42] How do organizations roll out agile performance management?
- Key mindset shifts leaders must make for successful implementation
- Letting the business set the norms for performance
[32:37] Closing
- Thanks for listening!
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Produced by Affogato Media
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Announcer (00:03):
Announcer, the world of business is more complex than
ever. The world of humanresources and compensation is
also getting more complex.
Welcome to the HR Data Labspodcast, your direct source for
the latest trends from expertsinside and outside the world of
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(00:26):
source for data technology andconsulting for compensation and
beyond. Now here are your hosts,David Turetsky and Dwight Brown.
David Turetsky (00:38):
Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs
podcast. I'm your host. DavidTuretsky, alongside my friend,
best friend from Salary.com,Dwight Brown. Dwight Brown, how
are you?
Dwight Brown (00:46):
David Turetsky, I am good. Are you doing?
David Turetsky (00:50):
You're just getting over the vid.
Dwight Brown (00:52):
I am. I was the grand prize winner in the COVID
raffle this past week.
David Turetsky (00:58):
So there are a lot of raffles I wanted to win.
No no, but it is like lotto. Youjust don't know when you're
gonna win it. Yeah. Well, todaywe have with us a very special
guest. She has two first names,Sarah Katherine Schmidt, Hey,
Sarah Katherine, how are you?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (01:15):
Hey, David. I'm well, I'm so thankful
to be on the podcast today. Soexcited for a great discussion.
David Turetsky (01:21):
We are excited as well, but before we get
started, tell everybody a littlebit about yourself.
Sarah K (01:27):
Sure. So I have been in HR and People Operations
leadership roles for the last 16years, and I have done
everything for startups andconsultancies, from recruitment
to benefits to compensation tolearning and development, all of
the things that an HRprofessional can do, including
(01:49):
the difficult conversations. SoI have taken all of that
experience, and I have come topeople logic, which has an AI
enhanced performance managementsystem, and I get to coach and
guide our customers, and I'mreally excited about what I get
to do day to day, and leveragingmy experience and also helping
them transform theirtechnologies outstanding.
David Turetsky (02:12):
Well, we're going to dive into that today
with our topic, but before we dowhat's one fun thing that no one
knows about? Sarah Katherine?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (02:21):
so when I retire, I want to open up a
hot yoga studio in Nepal,specifically Kathmandu. I
visited in 2006 and it'sgorgeous. It is my happy place,
and I can't wait to go back.
Ideally, I retire when I'm like50. So I just turned 41 a couple
(02:42):
weeks ago, so I only have nineyears to make my millions and
get out of dodge into Katmandu.
But
David Turetsky (02:47):
I want a vision board.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (02:50):
It's on the vision board,
David Turetsky (02:51):
It's on the vision board, and the song
Katmandu is on it
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (02:57):
yes, among many other songs,
including some Taylor Swift Igot it. Oh, really, you're a
Swifty. I am a huge Swifty. Isaw her in October. Yeah, saw
her in October. I was fourthrow, and it was just, wow,
Dwight Brown (03:12):
oh, wow. Hard
David Turetsky (03:13):
to be that experience. Yeah, two things we
now know about Sarah Katherine.
First, she's a Swifty. Andsecond of all, she likes
sweating with a bunch of otherpeople as well.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (03:23):
I do.
It's therapeutic, as weird asthat,
David Turetsky (03:27):
I'm sure, I'm sure, I've been told that hot
yoga is a phenomenal experience.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (03:32):
It is.
It's truly centering. I found itafter I got divorced, because I
needed to come back to myself,and so I rediscovered myself
through hot yoga, and it hasbeen a grounding force for me
ever since.
David Turetsky (03:47):
Well, we've all been there. I've been there
twice. So not not the not thehot yoga, but the the other
thing. So yes, it is definitelya grounding experience as well.
So Sarah Katherine, why don't weget started?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (04:02):
Yeah, let's do it.
David Turetsky (04:03):
So our topic for today is one that's near and
dear to all of our hearts.
Everyone loves performancemanagement. Oh no, I'm sorry. I
was just kidding, not everybody.
But today we're gonna be talkingabout agile performance
management, and we're gonna betalking about transforming the
way we measure success.
So Sarah Katherine, our firstquestion is, what prompted you
(04:30):
to champion a more agileapproach to performance reviews?
And by the way, what also doesit mean to have an agile
approach?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (04:39):
We will get there. So I mentioned, you
know, my career in HR and peopleoperations for the last 15
years, and you know, I have beenguilty of leading a number of
traditional performancemanagement processes, and it's
just it became super painful andcumbersome, and I saw the.
Engagement of our employees andour managers in particular,
(05:02):
decrease significantly. And so Idiscovered agile performance
management. I pushed aproverbial rock up a hill at my
last company trying to initiatesmall changes in performance
management and moving away fromannual reviews. But there, had
to be a better way, and that'swhy I came to people logic,
(05:23):
because we were able to developthe 12 principles of agile
performance management. And soagile performance management is
this future oriented, processdriven, approach that focuses on
frequent feedback measurement,continuous skill development,
and it's designed to adapt tointernal and external changes.
(05:45):
And I think that's wheretraditional performance
management is become so rigid,and it's become bureaucratic,
and the dynamic workplace isasking for something more. And
so we developed the 12principles as a blueprint for
organizations that are seekingto become more agile, meet the
demands of a modern, fast pacedwork force, and really drive
(06:08):
employee experience andengagement
David Turetsky (06:10):
before we get into the Agile performance
management. What's wrong withperformance management? Why does
it need to change? And youmentioned that you had a lot of
disengagement. What drove that?
What
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (06:23):
drove that were these cumbersome, time
consuming processes. And I thinkwhen we think about annual
performance reviews, there's somuch wrapped up in those.
There's so much emotion wrappedup in looking back at six
months, looking back at 12months, what we've accomplished,
and being able to regurgitatethat in a very long form, and
(06:43):
then for managers to do the samething, and it introduces this
significant element of bias thatultimately continuous
performance feedback is veryreal time and very much grounded
in data and fact. And when welook at annual performance
reviews. The system was created,gosh, back in the 1900s when the
(07:06):
army needed to assessperformance for cadets and
individuals who were enlistingor enlisted, and we've come a
long way since then. So we need,we need to shake some things up
a little bit.
David Turetsky (07:18):
Well, one would argue we have and we haven't
right, because our culture stillhates feedback, whether it's
real time, feedback, whetherit's yesterday, whether it's
today. We all think that we'redoing the best job we can, even
though we're obviously not. Andyou know, you talked a little
bit about the managersremembering what you did for
last year. You know, we have somuch recency bias in our minds
(07:41):
that, you know, if you if youknocked over the the fish tank
yesterday and it spilled allover the floor and it disrupted
lunch service, you know, youeat, not only what might you be
fired, but but, you know, that'sobviously something, no matter
how stellar you were for therest of the year, that's going
to overtake anything, any Goodyou might have done,
Sarah Katherine Sch (08:01):
absolutely, I think that's where delivering
feedback in real time comes witha level of curiosity and
empathy. You know, what elsehappened when you were perhaps,
you know when the fish tank wasin a precarious position? What
else was going on that day? Howare you doing? Is something off.
So there's a level of thatcuriosity and growth mindedness
(08:25):
that comes along with real timefeedback that I think is so
essential. And we have come tofear feedback because we don't
know how to give feedback and wedon't know how to give it
David Turetsky (08:35):
We suck at it.
Yeah, action.
Dwight Brown (08:37):
Well and when you bring in that, for lack of
better term historicalperspective when you're when
you're doing it far after thefact, there's always,
everybody's always worried aboutgetting blindsided and the
feedback that they're going toget. So there's sort of this
trepidation going intoperformance management, like,
Okay, what's this going to looklike for me? And, yeah, you
(08:59):
know, and well, being able to,even being able to look at the
constructive feedback, we justdon't want to see the bad stuff
on ourselves. And so it's, it isa, you know, it's a, it can feel
like a terrible process to a lotof people. I guess what I'm
saying
Sarah Katherine Sch (09:17):
Absolutely, does my salary depend on it?
Does my future with the dependon it? What does this mean in
terms of my growth at thecompany? All of that's wrapped
up in huge emotions around theannual review process, and when
you create this environment ofpsychological safety within an
organization where you can giveconstructive feedback, you can
(09:40):
give affirmative feedback inthis continuous manner. You
build a relationship where thatconstructive feedback isn't as
alarming and elevated in termsof your emotions, because you've
built a relationship and you'vebuilt safety. Unfortunately,
David Turetsky (09:59):
though, things happen. Things change, like we
just saw with Facebook, whereMark Zuckerberg took a left
sorry, took a right hand turnand said, Oh, we're going to get
let go all the people who areunderperforming. And a lot of
those people were not documentedto be underperforming. So So
there's, there's got to be thatpsychological safety built into
(10:21):
not just your process, but intoyour promise, into your brand
promise, into your employmentpromise that we're not going to
mess you about and even ifyou're having a bad period. You
know, while, yes, we do makehiring and firing decisions
based on performance managementand promotion decisions, you
know, there's a safe space here,and we're going to give you a
(10:43):
lot of time prior to a an eventto rectify your performance
before we let you go. That isnot translating in the in the
arena of public opinion rightnow.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (10:56):
It's not those honest conversations
are just harder for managers tohave they immediately lead to I
need to put this person on aperformance improvement plan,
because our minds automaticallygo to the negative, and they go
to a place where this isn'tworking. I need to take some big
action, versus leaning intoempathy, leaning into curiosity
(11:18):
and having some of thoseconversations that can
ultimately accelerateperformance for an individual,
because you believe in them, orthey sense that you believe in
them. When you don't just writethem off, they will come back to
you and they will come back tothe fold and ideally perform
better.
David Turetsky (11:38):
Ideally,
Sarah Katherine Schmid (11:39):
Ideally.
Dwight Brown (11:40):
Yeah
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (11:41):
that's not always the case, right? Rose
colored glasses situation.
David Turetsky (11:46):
But that's why I say that if you look at what's
happening today, either thefederal government or to many
large organizations that havetaken a turn, they are shedding
those low performers who theremight have been that contract
with them, or that, at leastthat promise that we're going to
work with you. And now peopleare looking at them and going,
(12:08):
hmm, you lied. Or how could Itrust you? And even
organizations that aren't thoseorganizations are now going to
have to suffer because employeesare not going to trust that a
low rating is not going to leadto an exit from the company,
Sarah Katherine Sch (12:24):
Absolutely.
Dwight Brown (12:25):
Well, it's interesting, because when you
look at the you look at the JackWelch approach, where, on an
annual basis, what was it 10% ofhis workforce got cut every
year? Yep, yep. And it, it turnsthe performance management
process and they're pretty cutthrough a process too, making
people do stuff they probablywouldn't otherwise do. Is it the
(12:47):
wrong approach? Not necessarily,you know, you want to keep your
high performers, but to thepoint that that you brought up
David, there's, you know, thereis more of that contract that
that needs to be there to reallyhave that effective performance
management process work probablysit somewhere in between, you
(13:10):
know, probably
Announcer (13:13):
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Salary.com now back to the show,
David Turetsky (13:24):
and let's, let's try and transition to find out
what's the difference betweentraditional performance
management and agile performancemanagement. How can agile
performance management helpimprove engagement and
retention?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (13:36):
Yeah, so you know, talking about
continuous feedback loops, andyou know, success and agile
performance management reallycomes from creating the
supportive environment thatwe've talked about already,
where feedback is seen as a toolfor growth rather than
criticism, and key engagementdrivers in Agile systems. This
(13:58):
is, this is grounded in theAgile performance approach for
software teams, right immediaterecognition for contributions
and achievements, things likeregular opportunities to discuss
your career opportunities oryour career growth and goals.
And then what we've talkedabout, as well as transparent
communication that's agileperformance management as best,
(14:20):
is this collaborative approachto setting and tracking
performance objectives. And it'snot just a point in time. It's
an ongoing conversation that hasfeedback frequency. It's goal
setting. It has employeeinvolvement and flexibility
based on where the organization,organization is going, where the
individual is going and meldingthose two together to bring out
(14:44):
the best.
David Turetsky (14:45):
So, but it's not like a agile, agile development
environment where you're havingstand ups and people say, so
would you accomplish yesterday?
And everybody shares that stuff.
It's more manager employee,right?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (14:59):
It is.
Is it's more manager employeeand building that one on one
relationship, becauseindividualized management is
what a lot of individuals in theworkforce are looking at today
or looking for today. We havefour, maybe five generations in
the workforce now, and theirneeds for feedback are all very
different. Their desire for anannual performance review versus
(15:22):
something that is morecontinuous, is very different.
So it's really getting away fromthat point in time feed, or from
the point in time annual review,to something that is ongoing.
And no, it's not daily standups, it can be, but it's more of
those regular weekly check insand talking about growth and
leaning into being curious againabout what's going on with the
(15:46):
individual themselves, andwhat's going on with their goals
and their development.
David Turetsky (15:52):
I was part of a organization prior to coming to
Salary.com that had a technologysalary.com that had a technology
that enabled continuous feedbackand continuous conversation
between managers employees, andI will tell you, it was good in
one way, because you kind ofknew where you were. The problem
(16:12):
is, is that it got kind ofonerous that every week,
managers and employees wererequired to have a check in, and
a lot of times that check in wasvia technology. It was not face
to face, it was not even zoom.
It was you did it through thesoftware, and you gave a thumbs
up, thumbs down, or, you know,hand to the side, or whatever,
(16:33):
to kind of say, I am feelingsupported. I'm not feeling
supported. Blah, blah, blah. Andit became kind of wrote after a
while, you know? How do you keepthat going so that engagement
still there and that that itdoesn't become just another
process I have to do every week.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (16:53):
So I look at weekly one on ones
specifically as they can beroutine or they can be ritual.
And my routine in the morning isto get up make coffee. I can't
speak full sentences without mycoffee. But in the afternoon, I
fix tea, and that's my ritual,because I sit down, I reflect on
my day, and I, you know, savorthat cup of tea more so than I
(17:18):
need the caffeine in my veins,right? And so you can look at
weekly one on ones in the sameway. Is it something that I have
to do? Is it a checkbox that Ineed to just check off? Or is it
a valuable moment, or moments ofmy time where I'm connecting one
on one with someone that trustsme, that is loyal to me, that is
really engaged in theorganization. How do I make sure
(17:42):
that this person continues inthat thread of engagement and
looking at it as a ritual andthat sacred time, so to speak,
versus that thing that just hasto get done?
Dwight Brown (17:55):
How do you get both the manager and the
employee to that point.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (18:00):
Hmmm, that's... that's a great
question. It's a mindset shift,right? It's a mindset shift that
has to happen at the top of theorganization in terms of, here's
the path for for growth andconnecting and finding
psychological safety andbuilding relationships. It has
to come from support from thetop, and then be filtered down
(18:23):
to the managers and theindividual contributors. And
creating that time and beingable to save that time, right?
Nothing should come over the topof one of your one on ones. And
so that needs to be made veryclear. And I find that, you
know, once you establish thatfirst one on one with an
individual, when they join thecompany, or when you're their
(18:46):
new manager, that sets the stagefor making it more of a ritual
than a routine, because you'retalking about things that are
both engaging to you andengaging to them, and you're
starting to build that rapportin your relationship. And so
then you want to come back andyou want to do that again, and
you want to keep building keepbuilding on it, but you've got
to set the framework at the topthat it's really important and
(19:07):
it's an essential piece.
David Turetsky (19:10):
Unless you hate your boss, in which case, then
it becomes a chore, and you sayto yourself, oh my gosh, I have
to spend time with them again.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (19:18):
But is there a silver lining in that
space, is
David Turetsky (19:21):
there a silver lining? Yes, when you hang up,
that's when the silver lininghappens.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (19:25):
Is there a silver lining? And
sometimes that is, that is a no.
David Turetsky (19:29):
But that's, that's the reason why, though
people get disengaged, is thatthese intimate moments with a
person that they don't respect,don't like, whatever are forced
on them, and, yeah, I'm comingback around. Don't worry. Sarah
Katherine.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (19:44):
No, I was just gonna say, dare I say
this manager doesn't need to bea manager like.
David Turetsky (19:48):
Well, yeah, but, but, I mean, that's, that's an
easy answer, right? You know,either the relationship's not
good, do you have to change theplayers in it? The manager, you
know, should go or the employeeshould get reassigned, or.
Something like that? Yeah, sure.
But when does that come up? Doesthat come up through these
conversations, or does thathappen at different
conversations? If you're anagile you're constantly trying
(20:09):
to improve things by knowingthat it's not working
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (20:13):
Right?
Absolutely. I think it can comeup in these conversations, but
you have to look at other datapoints around this. So you need
to look at your engagementsurveys. You need to look at
your performance review process.
You need to look at some ofthose other KPIs around goal
attainment and skillsimprovement, right? If the
individual is not thriving, orif the manager is not thriving,
(20:36):
it's going to be reflected inthe data somewhere. And this is
where organizations don't lookat that data often enough, or
they don't know what to make ofthat data. So yes, you can know
day in day out that something'snot working, but you've got to
pull the threads across all ofthose other points of influence
to that decision and not justrely on your gut.
David Turetsky (20:59):
Well, this is the HR Data Labs. We love
measuring things, and we loveoutcomes too. So one of the
things that we like to look atis, or once what we talk about
is having good data that enablesyou to make better decisions
about whatever process we'retalking about.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (21:15):
Yes,
David Turetsky (21:16):
And so I imagine, when you're talking
about engagement scores, you'retalking about doing it more
thoroughly, more rigorously,more often, rather than that
once a year engagement scorethat you know, we all look
forward to taking.
Sarah Katherine Schmid (21:32):
Everyone looks forward to that 40
question engagement survey.
David Turetsky (21:36):
Yes, we do.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (21:37):
Said no one. They have a place. They
have a place. But I also thinkthat pulse surveys done right
can really, can really provideinformation on your managerial
effectiveness and how people aregrowing. And then I like to talk
about stay interviews a lot. Sostay interviews, you know, are a
(21:58):
retention mechanism that shouldbe used by most organizations
when they want to connectdeeper, on how an individual
wants to grow, how you'releveraging their skills, what
projects they're excited about,where you could continue to
leverage things that you maybedon't even know that they're
capable of. So the qualitativeand the quantitative data points
(22:20):
are really important in figuringout what that, that giant puzzle
looks like, of engagement.
Dwight Brown (22:27):
Yeah, it is. You know, so much of it comes down
to the technology and being ableto have that, that data in a in
a constantly feeding way. And,you know, I think that there are
some systems that have tried todo that, but it's a challenge
too, because what do youmeasure? How do you measure it,
(22:49):
and how do you get the datathere, and how do you help
people understand what the whatthe meaning of the data is, and
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (22:58):
when I, frankly, that's what I love
about my role, because I spentso many years in that space of
what do you measure, how do youmeasure it, and what do you make
of the data in and of itself?
And so I now get to talk tocustomers about that and help
them pull those threads on theirengagement data, their reviews,
(23:19):
their individual developmentplans, putting all of those
things together, because it'snot just one piece of data, it's
it's that across the employeelife cycle. What are you
measuring? How are you measuringit, and how are you putting that
together to complete this visionor visual of the employee
experience at your organization?
(23:40):
That's what I love most about myjob, because we have a platform
that'll do that, but we alsotalk about the philosophy and
the methodology behind some ofthose things.
David Turetsky (23:49):
I imagine that implementing this, and maybe we
should wait until the thirdquestion for this, but
implementation of this seemslike it's going to add a lot of
administrivia to twoorganizations that may not have
this as a routine part of whatmanagers do, it may actually
have to add a significant chunkof work to managers to actually
(24:13):
be managers instead of be playercoaches. Hey, are you listening
to this and thinking toyourself, Man, I wish I could
talk to David about this. Well,you're in luck. We have a
special offer for listeners ofthe HR data labs podcast, a free
half hour call with me about anyof the topics we cover on the
podcast or whatever is on yourmind. Go to salary.com forward
(24:35):
slash, hrdl consulting toschedule your FREE 30 minute
call today, I guess we'll startthis as the third question. How
do you recommend that companiesroll this out to what are
extremely busy teams to beginwith?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (24:53):
Yeah, if you take the 12 principles of
agile performance management andyou try to implement all of.
Them at the same time. Yes, it'sgoing to be overwhelming, but
what I tell companies, and whatI strongly believe, is that you
start small and you measure theresults and you use the
learnings to refine yourapproach. So starting small
(25:14):
means using a single departmentor a team as a test pilot group,
implementing maybe it's 15minute check ins each week
between managers and teammembers, and creating a simple
feedback template. What I what Iwant to emphasize here is that
(25:35):
the cultural shifts needed foragile performance management,
for it to succeed in the processof implementing those small
changes is around growthmindset, and it's around
psychological safety and trustand transparency. So if those
things are there in theorganization, then you can start
to look at your processes andsee where there's friction, and
(25:55):
then you can start to make thosesmall changes. They don't have
to be overwhelming. HR isalready trying to make
transformational change happenin multiple areas. So starting
small is what I recommend, andpicking an area that where you
think you can get some changechampions, and you can find some
wins, and you can gather somedata to tell you the path
(26:17):
forward.
David Turetsky (26:17):
Yeah, to me that the things you just mentioned
are not necessarily corecompetencies of organizations,
you know, the trust, the safety,the psychological safety,
especially, and especially inthe environments that we've been
dealing with lately, these areprobably going to have to be
trained Quite, quite, quiteemphatically, actually, and
(26:41):
hopefully the company that we'retalking about as a target
company for this has the culturethat could open to this, because
it does require a mind shift,and not just in work and how you
work, but also how thatrelationship happens between the
manager and the employee, right?
Sarah Katherine Sch (27:00):
Absolutely.
You know, I spent a fair bit oftime in learning and development
roles, and it was that mindsetshift that was the hardest to
train managers in, and it again,became the proverbial rock up a
hill. And ultimately, that'swhere I I said, there's a better
way to do it, and I want to godo it in a in a way where it's
appreciated and where it can beaccepted and embraced. But
(27:24):
you're right. It starts withtraining your managers. It
starts with actually trainingyour leadership and making sure
that they're all aligned,because if they're not stacking
hands, then then none of thiswill be successful, and it will
all be for naught.
David Turetsky (27:41):
No you'll get that leader who goes jet. Don't
worry. You don't have to dothis. It's okay. Yeah, there's
always one. I'll talk to HR.
We'll extend your group. Youcan, you can do the annual
review. Don't worry about it.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (27:54):
But then you're not, you're not
equipping them to articulate thelonger term vision. So you
failed on the change managementside.
David Turetsky (28:02):
Exactly! But that's why, that you're correct,
that leaders have to lock hands,that this is required, that
we're going to be doing thisacross the board, and there is
no don't worry, I'll talk to HRabout it. That doesn't exist.
Dwight Brown (28:19):
You got to be able to show the value of it.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (28:21):
Right! Absolutely, and, and Performance
Management can't just be an HRprocess. Like, that's, that's
what?
David Turetsky (28:30):
Yeah, when HR, I'm looking at the reviews,
yeah, and you haven't turned inyour reviews for 2000 people?
Yeah, yep, right. I get itpolice,
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (28:42):
Where's where's the sense of ownership
on that manager, though, like,where's the sense of ownership?
David Turetsky (28:46):
To your point, it hadn't become a business And
process. From the goal settingthrough the goal updates
throughout the year, the checkins through the evaluation. Hey,
listen, we've had theseconversations throughout the
year. You've done a really goodjob. You've met all your goals.
We've talked where you've hadchallenges. I've tried to break
down some of those issues thatyou've had, and no blockers
(29:09):
anymore. You You were able toaccomplish all your goals. So
great job. You gotta, you gottameet expectations. Wait, what? I
gotta meet expectations. Isatisfied all my goals, yeah,
but you didn't, you weren'texceptional. You just met all
your goals. And that's, that'swhere the other part gets in.
You know, there has to be analignment on what does
(29:29):
Performance Manager mean? Whatdoes it affect? How does it How
does it impact you? What do Ineed to do? Set me an example
for what is outstandingperformance versus what's just
enough and and then collaborateacross your entire organization
and calibrate and make sureeverybody knows what stellar,
outstanding and exceptionalmeans. Instead of it being
Dwight, you know, he reviews hispeople. I review mine. Half of
(29:53):
mine are exceptional, and helooks and he goes, Wait a
minute. Wait a minute. Youmissed all your numbers. My
group doubled their goals. Anoutput. What are you doing,
David?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (30:03):
I call that norming on your ratings and
your rankings. And so you haveto norm with your managers on
what those whether it'sinconsistent, performer,
developing, performer,outstanding performer. You want
your managers rating and rankingvery consistently across the
board to reduce bias. Yes, therewill still be calibration that
(30:25):
needs to happen. There usuallyalways is. But when you're
setting that foundation withyour managers and your leaders,
of this is the example, or theseare the examples, provide more
than one example Your heavens,and when you're setting that
that norming with them beingreally clear about here are the
(30:45):
scenarios. Let's throw out ascenario. Let's throw out an
instant and being able to get amind share on those things is
really important.
David Turetsky (30:54):
And how about we have the business lead those
discussions and not? HR, yeah,so that, by the way, my dad's
name is Norm So, or was so. Howabout nor the norm becomes
something that everybody acrossthe business can latch on to
because they own it, not. HR,going, Hey, Dwight, Hey, David,
(31:15):
I think we have a problem withyour distribution... What?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (31:20):
That that bell curve
David Turetsky (31:23):
Let's look at your distribution.
Dwight Brown (31:24):
It'll get you every time
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (31:25):
it'll get you every time
David Turetsky (31:27):
50% of your team is not exceeds expectations,
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (31:32):
yep.
Well, what leaders are afraidabout there is that they will be
held to the same standards,right? And they'll be held
accountable for their ownperformance. And I think that's,
that's the hardest thing formanagers and leaders to be okay
with, is that it's, it's acrossthe board. These are the norms.
(31:52):
Here's what you're heldaccountable to.
David Turetsky (31:53):
Yeah. Sarah Katherine, I don't know about
you, but a lot of theorganizations I lived in and
worked in, the leaders never didperformance valuation, so we
could never look at them and go,All right, so what were your
ratings? Because they didn'texist. Because they were, I'm
too busy. It's not for me. It'sfor everybody else. Or they get
a pass from the CEO. Well, yeah,because the CEO is not doing his
(32:15):
evaluation either, or she's notdoing hers either, right? So,
you know, really?
Dwight Brown (32:20):
Flows up bill and it flows downhill.
David Turetsky (32:23):
Yes, it does.
Dwight, and it's calledplumbing.
Dwight Brown (32:26):
Yeah right...
Exactly.
David Turetsky (32:37):
Sarah Katherine, it's been really fun having you
on the HR data labs podcast.
This is a conversation we couldcontinue to have for hours, but
unfortunately, we respect ourlisteners, and their heads are
spinning for all the phenomenalinformation you fed them today.
So thank you so much for beingon the podcast. Oh,
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (32:55):
Oh thank you so much. I hope
they're spinning in the rightdirection and in a positive way,
David Turetsky (32:59):
in a way that's true there, so don't let us know
in the comments if they don't,if they didn't like it, and I,
I'm hoping they did.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (33:09):
I hope you all enjoyed listening. And
David Dwight, thank you so much.
Appreciate the time.
David Turetsky (33:14):
Thank you. Sarah Katherine,
Dwight Brown (33:15):
thanks for being with us. Yeah.
David Turetsky (33:17):
And thank you, Dwight, thank you, my pleasure.
Thank you for listening. Takecare and stay safe.
Announcer (33:22):
That was the HR Data Labs podcast. If you liked the
episode, please subscribe. Andif you know anyone that might
like to hear it, please send ittheir way. Thank you for joining
us this week, and stay tuned forour next episode. Stay safe. Yo
Announcer, the world of business is more complex than
ever. The world of humanresources and compensation is
also getting more complex.
Welcome to the HR Data Labspodcast, your direct source for
the latest trends from expertsinside and outside the world of
human resources. Listen as weexplore the impact that
compensation strategy, data andpeople analytics can have on
your organization. This podcastis sponsored by Salary.com Your
(00:26):
source for data technology andconsulting for compensation and
beyond. Now here are your hosts,David Turetsky and Dwight Brown.
David Turetsky (00:38):
Hello and welcome to the HR Data Labs
podcast. I'm your host. DavidTuretsky, alongside my friend,
best friend from Salary.com,Dwight Brown. Dwight Brown, how
are you?
Dwight Brown (00:46):
David Turetsky, I am good. Are you doing?
David Turetsky (00:50):
You're just getting over the vid.
Dwight Brown (00:52):
I am. I was the grand prize winner in the COVID
raffle this past week.
David Turetsky (00:58):
So there are a lot of raffles I wanted to win.
No no, but it is like lotto. Youjust don't know when you're
gonna win it. Yeah. Well, todaywe have with us a very special
guest. She has two first names,Sarah Katherine Schmidt, Hey,
Sarah Katherine, how are you?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (01:15):
Hey, David. I'm well, I'm so thankful
to be on the podcast today. Soexcited for a great discussion.
David Turetsky (01:21):
We are excited as well, but before we get
started, tell everybody a littlebit about yourself.
Sarah K (01:27):
Sure. So I have been in HR and People Operations
leadership roles for the last 16years, and I have done
everything for startups andconsultancies, from recruitment
to benefits to compensation tolearning and development, all of
the things that an HRprofessional can do, including
(01:49):
the difficult conversations. SoI have taken all of that
experience, and I have come topeople logic, which has an AI
enhanced performance managementsystem, and I get to coach and
guide our customers, and I'mreally excited about what I get
to do day to day, and leveragingmy experience and also helping
them transform theirtechnologies outstanding.
David Turetsky (02:12):
Well, we're going to dive into that today
with our topic, but before we dowhat's one fun thing that no one
knows about? Sarah Katherine?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (02:21):
so when I retire, I want to open up a
hot yoga studio in Nepal,specifically Kathmandu. I
visited in 2006 and it'sgorgeous. It is my happy place,
and I can't wait to go back.
Ideally, I retire when I'm like50. So I just turned 41 a couple
(02:42):
weeks ago, so I only have nineyears to make my millions and
get out of dodge into Katmandu.
But
David Turetsky (02:47):
I want a vision board.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (02:50):
It's on the vision board,
David Turetsky (02:51):
It's on the vision board, and the song
Katmandu is on it
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (02:57):
yes, among many other songs,
including some Taylor Swift Igot it. Oh, really, you're a
Swifty. I am a huge Swifty. Isaw her in October. Yeah, saw
her in October. I was fourthrow, and it was just, wow,
Dwight Brown (03:12):
oh, wow. Hard
David Turetsky (03:13):
to be that experience. Yeah, two things we
now know about Sarah Katherine.
First, she's a Swifty. Andsecond of all, she likes
sweating with a bunch of otherpeople as well.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (03:23):
I do.
It's therapeutic, as weird asthat,
David Turetsky (03:27):
I'm sure, I'm sure, I've been told that hot
yoga is a phenomenal experience.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (03:32):
It is.
It's truly centering. I found itafter I got divorced, because I
needed to come back to myself,and so I rediscovered myself
through hot yoga, and it hasbeen a grounding force for me
ever since.
David Turetsky (03:47):
Well, we've all been there. I've been there
twice. So not not the not thehot yoga, but the the other
thing. So yes, it is definitelya grounding experience as well.
So Sarah Katherine, why don't weget started?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (04:02):
Yeah, let's do it.
David Turetsky (04:03):
So our topic for today is one that's near and
dear to all of our hearts.
Everyone loves performancemanagement. Oh no, I'm sorry. I
was just kidding, not everybody.
But today we're gonna be talkingabout agile performance
management, and we're gonna betalking about transforming the
way we measure success.
So Sarah Katherine, our firstquestion is, what prompted you
(04:30):
to champion a more agileapproach to performance reviews?
And by the way, what also doesit mean to have an agile
approach?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (04:39):
We will get there. So I mentioned, you
know, my career in HR and peopleoperations for the last 15
years, and you know, I have beenguilty of leading a number of
traditional performancemanagement processes, and it's
just it became super painful andcumbersome, and I saw the.
Engagement of our employees andour managers in particular,
(05:02):
decrease significantly. And so Idiscovered agile performance
management. I pushed aproverbial rock up a hill at my
last company trying to initiatesmall changes in performance
management and moving away fromannual reviews. But there, had
to be a better way, and that'swhy I came to people logic,
(05:23):
because we were able to developthe 12 principles of agile
performance management. And soagile performance management is
this future oriented, processdriven, approach that focuses on
frequent feedback measurement,continuous skill development,
and it's designed to adapt tointernal and external changes.
(05:45):
And I think that's wheretraditional performance
management is become so rigid,and it's become bureaucratic,
and the dynamic workplace isasking for something more. And
so we developed the 12principles as a blueprint for
organizations that are seekingto become more agile, meet the
demands of a modern, fast pacedwork force, and really drive
(06:08):
employee experience andengagement
David Turetsky (06:10):
before we get into the Agile performance
management. What's wrong withperformance management? Why does
it need to change? And youmentioned that you had a lot of
disengagement. What drove that?
What
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (06:23):
drove that were these cumbersome, time
consuming processes. And I thinkwhen we think about annual
performance reviews, there's somuch wrapped up in those.
There's so much emotion wrappedup in looking back at six
months, looking back at 12months, what we've accomplished,
and being able to regurgitatethat in a very long form, and
(06:43):
then for managers to do the samething, and it introduces this
significant element of bias thatultimately continuous
performance feedback is veryreal time and very much grounded
in data and fact. And when welook at annual performance
reviews. The system was created,gosh, back in the 1900s when the
(07:06):
army needed to assessperformance for cadets and
individuals who were enlistingor enlisted, and we've come a
long way since then. So we need,we need to shake some things up
a little bit.
David Turetsky (07:18):
Well, one would argue we have and we haven't
right, because our culture stillhates feedback, whether it's
real time, feedback, whetherit's yesterday, whether it's
today. We all think that we'redoing the best job we can, even
though we're obviously not. Andyou know, you talked a little
bit about the managersremembering what you did for
last year. You know, we have somuch recency bias in our minds
(07:41):
that, you know, if you if youknocked over the the fish tank
yesterday and it spilled allover the floor and it disrupted
lunch service, you know, youeat, not only what might you be
fired, but but, you know, that'sobviously something, no matter
how stellar you were for therest of the year, that's going
to overtake anything, any Goodyou might have done,
Sarah Katherine Sch (08:01):
absolutely, I think that's where delivering
feedback in real time comes witha level of curiosity and
empathy. You know, what elsehappened when you were perhaps,
you know when the fish tank wasin a precarious position? What
else was going on that day? Howare you doing? Is something off.
So there's a level of thatcuriosity and growth mindedness
(08:25):
that comes along with real timefeedback that I think is so
essential. And we have come tofear feedback because we don't
know how to give feedback and wedon't know how to give it
David Turetsky (08:35):
We suck at it.
Yeah, action.
Dwight Brown (08:37):
Well and when you bring in that, for lack of
better term historicalperspective when you're when
you're doing it far after thefact, there's always,
everybody's always worried aboutgetting blindsided and the
feedback that they're going toget. So there's sort of this
trepidation going intoperformance management, like,
Okay, what's this going to looklike for me? And, yeah, you
(08:59):
know, and well, being able to,even being able to look at the
constructive feedback, we justdon't want to see the bad stuff
on ourselves. And so it's, it isa, you know, it's a, it can feel
like a terrible process to a lotof people. I guess what I'm
saying
Sarah Katherine Sch (09:17):
Absolutely, does my salary depend on it?
Does my future with the dependon it? What does this mean in
terms of my growth at thecompany? All of that's wrapped
up in huge emotions around theannual review process, and when
you create this environment ofpsychological safety within an
organization where you can giveconstructive feedback, you can
(09:40):
give affirmative feedback inthis continuous manner. You
build a relationship where thatconstructive feedback isn't as
alarming and elevated in termsof your emotions, because you've
built a relationship and you'vebuilt safety. Unfortunately,
David Turetsky (09:59):
though, things happen. Things change, like we
just saw with Facebook, whereMark Zuckerberg took a left
sorry, took a right hand turnand said, Oh, we're going to get
let go all the people who areunderperforming. And a lot of
those people were not documentedto be underperforming. So So
there's, there's got to be thatpsychological safety built into
(10:21):
not just your process, but intoyour promise, into your brand
promise, into your employmentpromise that we're not going to
mess you about and even ifyou're having a bad period. You
know, while, yes, we do makehiring and firing decisions
based on performance managementand promotion decisions, you
know, there's a safe space here,and we're going to give you a
(10:43):
lot of time prior to a an eventto rectify your performance
before we let you go. That isnot translating in the in the
arena of public opinion rightnow.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (10:56):
It's not those honest conversations
are just harder for managers tohave they immediately lead to I
need to put this person on aperformance improvement plan,
because our minds automaticallygo to the negative, and they go
to a place where this isn'tworking. I need to take some big
action, versus leaning intoempathy, leaning into curiosity
(11:18):
and having some of thoseconversations that can
ultimately accelerateperformance for an individual,
because you believe in them, orthey sense that you believe in
them. When you don't just writethem off, they will come back to
you and they will come back tothe fold and ideally perform
better.
David Turetsky (11:38):
Ideally,
Sarah Katherine Schmid (11:39):
Ideally.
Dwight Brown (11:40):
Yeah
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (11:41):
that's not always the case, right? Rose
colored glasses situation.
David Turetsky (11:46):
But that's why I say that if you look at what's
happening today, either thefederal government or to many
large organizations that havetaken a turn, they are shedding
those low performers who theremight have been that contract
with them, or that, at leastthat promise that we're going to
work with you. And now peopleare looking at them and going,
(12:08):
hmm, you lied. Or how could Itrust you? And even
organizations that aren't thoseorganizations are now going to
have to suffer because employeesare not going to trust that a
low rating is not going to leadto an exit from the company,
Sarah Katherine Sch (12:24):
Absolutely.
Dwight Brown (12:25):
Well, it's interesting, because when you
look at the you look at the JackWelch approach, where, on an
annual basis, what was it 10% ofhis workforce got cut every
year? Yep, yep. And it, it turnsthe performance management
process and they're pretty cutthrough a process too, making
people do stuff they probablywouldn't otherwise do. Is it the
(12:47):
wrong approach? Not necessarily,you know, you want to keep your
high performers, but to thepoint that that you brought up
David, there's, you know, thereis more of that contract that
that needs to be there to reallyhave that effective performance
management process work probablysit somewhere in between, you
(13:10):
know, probably
Announcer (13:13):
Like what you hear so far. Make sure you never miss a
show by clicking subscribe. Thispodcast is made possible by
Salary.com now back to the show,
David Turetsky (13:24):
and let's, let's try and transition to find out
what's the difference betweentraditional performance
management and agile performancemanagement. How can agile
performance management helpimprove engagement and
retention?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (13:36):
Yeah, so you know, talking about
continuous feedback loops, andyou know, success and agile
performance management reallycomes from creating the
supportive environment thatwe've talked about already,
where feedback is seen as a toolfor growth rather than
criticism, and key engagementdrivers in Agile systems. This
(13:58):
is, this is grounded in theAgile performance approach for
software teams, right immediaterecognition for contributions
and achievements, things likeregular opportunities to discuss
your career opportunities oryour career growth and goals.
And then what we've talkedabout, as well as transparent
communication that's agileperformance management as best,
(14:20):
is this collaborative approachto setting and tracking
performance objectives. And it'snot just a point in time. It's
an ongoing conversation that hasfeedback frequency. It's goal
setting. It has employeeinvolvement and flexibility
based on where the organization,organization is going, where the
individual is going and meldingthose two together to bring out
(14:44):
the best.
David Turetsky (14:45):
So, but it's not like a agile, agile development
environment where you're havingstand ups and people say, so
would you accomplish yesterday?
And everybody shares that stuff.
It's more manager employee,right?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (14:59):
It is.
Is it's more manager employeeand building that one on one
relationship, becauseindividualized management is
what a lot of individuals in theworkforce are looking at today
or looking for today. We havefour, maybe five generations in
the workforce now, and theirneeds for feedback are all very
different. Their desire for anannual performance review versus
(15:22):
something that is morecontinuous, is very different.
So it's really getting away fromthat point in time feed, or from
the point in time annual review,to something that is ongoing.
And no, it's not daily standups, it can be, but it's more of
those regular weekly check insand talking about growth and
leaning into being curious againabout what's going on with the
(15:46):
individual themselves, andwhat's going on with their goals
and their development.
David Turetsky (15:52):
I was part of a organization prior to coming to
Salary.com that had a technologysalary.com that had a technology
that enabled continuous feedbackand continuous conversation
between managers employees, andI will tell you, it was good in
one way, because you kind ofknew where you were. The problem
(16:12):
is, is that it got kind ofonerous that every week,
managers and employees wererequired to have a check in, and
a lot of times that check in wasvia technology. It was not face
to face, it was not even zoom.
It was you did it through thesoftware, and you gave a thumbs
up, thumbs down, or, you know,hand to the side, or whatever,
(16:33):
to kind of say, I am feelingsupported. I'm not feeling
supported. Blah, blah, blah. Andit became kind of wrote after a
while, you know? How do you keepthat going so that engagement
still there and that that itdoesn't become just another
process I have to do every week.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (16:53):
So I look at weekly one on ones
specifically as they can beroutine or they can be ritual.
And my routine in the morning isto get up make coffee. I can't
speak full sentences without mycoffee. But in the afternoon, I
fix tea, and that's my ritual,because I sit down, I reflect on
my day, and I, you know, savorthat cup of tea more so than I
(17:18):
need the caffeine in my veins,right? And so you can look at
weekly one on ones in the sameway. Is it something that I have
to do? Is it a checkbox that Ineed to just check off? Or is it
a valuable moment, or moments ofmy time where I'm connecting one
on one with someone that trustsme, that is loyal to me, that is
really engaged in theorganization. How do I make sure
(17:42):
that this person continues inthat thread of engagement and
looking at it as a ritual andthat sacred time, so to speak,
versus that thing that just hasto get done?
Dwight Brown (17:55):
How do you get both the manager and the
employee to that point.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (18:00):
Hmmm, that's... that's a great
question. It's a mindset shift,right? It's a mindset shift that
has to happen at the top of theorganization in terms of, here's
the path for for growth andconnecting and finding
psychological safety andbuilding relationships. It has
to come from support from thetop, and then be filtered down
(18:23):
to the managers and theindividual contributors. And
creating that time and beingable to save that time, right?
Nothing should come over the topof one of your one on ones. And
so that needs to be made veryclear. And I find that, you
know, once you establish thatfirst one on one with an
individual, when they join thecompany, or when you're their
(18:46):
new manager, that sets the stagefor making it more of a ritual
than a routine, because you'retalking about things that are
both engaging to you andengaging to them, and you're
starting to build that rapportin your relationship. And so
then you want to come back andyou want to do that again, and
you want to keep building keepbuilding on it, but you've got
to set the framework at the topthat it's really important and
(19:07):
it's an essential piece.
David Turetsky (19:10):
Unless you hate your boss, in which case, then
it becomes a chore, and you sayto yourself, oh my gosh, I have
to spend time with them again.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (19:18):
But is there a silver lining in that
space, is
David Turetsky (19:21):
there a silver lining? Yes, when you hang up,
that's when the silver lininghappens.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (19:25):
Is there a silver lining? And
sometimes that is, that is a no.
David Turetsky (19:29):
But that's, that's the reason why, though
people get disengaged, is thatthese intimate moments with a
person that they don't respect,don't like, whatever are forced
on them, and, yeah, I'm comingback around. Don't worry. Sarah
Katherine.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (19:44):
No, I was just gonna say, dare I say
this manager doesn't need to bea manager like.
David Turetsky (19:48):
Well, yeah, but, but, I mean, that's, that's an
easy answer, right? You know,either the relationship's not
good, do you have to change theplayers in it? The manager, you
know, should go or the employeeshould get reassigned, or.
Something like that? Yeah, sure.
But when does that come up? Doesthat come up through these
conversations, or does thathappen at different
conversations? If you're anagile you're constantly trying
(20:09):
to improve things by knowingthat it's not working
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (20:13):
Right?
Absolutely. I think it can comeup in these conversations, but
you have to look at other datapoints around this. So you need
to look at your engagementsurveys. You need to look at
your performance review process.
You need to look at some ofthose other KPIs around goal
attainment and skillsimprovement, right? If the
individual is not thriving, orif the manager is not thriving,
(20:36):
it's going to be reflected inthe data somewhere. And this is
where organizations don't lookat that data often enough, or
they don't know what to make ofthat data. So yes, you can know
day in day out that something'snot working, but you've got to
pull the threads across all ofthose other points of influence
to that decision and not justrely on your gut.
David Turetsky (20:59):
Well, this is the HR Data Labs. We love
measuring things, and we loveoutcomes too. So one of the
things that we like to look atis, or once what we talk about
is having good data that enablesyou to make better decisions
about whatever process we'retalking about.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (21:15):
Yes,
David Turetsky (21:16):
And so I imagine, when you're talking
about engagement scores, you'retalking about doing it more
thoroughly, more rigorously,more often, rather than that
once a year engagement scorethat you know, we all look
forward to taking.
Sarah Katherine Schmid (21:32):
Everyone looks forward to that 40
question engagement survey.
David Turetsky (21:36):
Yes, we do.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (21:37):
Said no one. They have a place. They
have a place. But I also thinkthat pulse surveys done right
can really, can really provideinformation on your managerial
effectiveness and how people aregrowing. And then I like to talk
about stay interviews a lot. Sostay interviews, you know, are a
(21:58):
retention mechanism that shouldbe used by most organizations
when they want to connectdeeper, on how an individual
wants to grow, how you'releveraging their skills, what
projects they're excited about,where you could continue to
leverage things that you maybedon't even know that they're
capable of. So the qualitativeand the quantitative data points
(22:20):
are really important in figuringout what that, that giant puzzle
looks like, of engagement.
Dwight Brown (22:27):
Yeah, it is. You know, so much of it comes down
to the technology and being ableto have that, that data in a in
a constantly feeding way. And,you know, I think that there are
some systems that have tried todo that, but it's a challenge
too, because what do youmeasure? How do you measure it,
(22:49):
and how do you get the datathere, and how do you help
people understand what the whatthe meaning of the data is, and
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (22:58):
when I, frankly, that's what I love
about my role, because I spentso many years in that space of
what do you measure, how do youmeasure it, and what do you make
of the data in and of itself?
And so I now get to talk tocustomers about that and help
them pull those threads on theirengagement data, their reviews,
(23:19):
their individual developmentplans, putting all of those
things together, because it'snot just one piece of data, it's
it's that across the employeelife cycle. What are you
measuring? How are you measuringit, and how are you putting that
together to complete this visionor visual of the employee
experience at your organization?
(23:40):
That's what I love most about myjob, because we have a platform
that'll do that, but we alsotalk about the philosophy and
the methodology behind some ofthose things.
David Turetsky (23:49):
I imagine that implementing this, and maybe we
should wait until the thirdquestion for this, but
implementation of this seemslike it's going to add a lot of
administrivia to twoorganizations that may not have
this as a routine part of whatmanagers do, it may actually
have to add a significant chunkof work to managers to actually
(24:13):
be managers instead of be playercoaches. Hey, are you listening
to this and thinking toyourself, Man, I wish I could
talk to David about this. Well,you're in luck. We have a
special offer for listeners ofthe HR data labs podcast, a free
half hour call with me about anyof the topics we cover on the
podcast or whatever is on yourmind. Go to salary.com forward
(24:35):
slash, hrdl consulting toschedule your FREE 30 minute
call today, I guess we'll startthis as the third question. How
do you recommend that companiesroll this out to what are
extremely busy teams to beginwith?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (24:53):
Yeah, if you take the 12 principles of
agile performance management andyou try to implement all of.
Them at the same time. Yes, it'sgoing to be overwhelming, but
what I tell companies, and whatI strongly believe, is that you
start small and you measure theresults and you use the
learnings to refine yourapproach. So starting small
(25:14):
means using a single departmentor a team as a test pilot group,
implementing maybe it's 15minute check ins each week
between managers and teammembers, and creating a simple
feedback template. What I what Iwant to emphasize here is that
(25:35):
the cultural shifts needed foragile performance management,
for it to succeed in the processof implementing those small
changes is around growthmindset, and it's around
psychological safety and trustand transparency. So if those
things are there in theorganization, then you can start
to look at your processes andsee where there's friction, and
(25:55):
then you can start to make thosesmall changes. They don't have
to be overwhelming. HR isalready trying to make
transformational change happenin multiple areas. So starting
small is what I recommend, andpicking an area that where you
think you can get some changechampions, and you can find some
wins, and you can gather somedata to tell you the path
(26:17):
forward.
David Turetsky (26:17):
Yeah, to me that the things you just mentioned
are not necessarily corecompetencies of organizations,
you know, the trust, the safety,the psychological safety,
especially, and especially inthe environments that we've been
dealing with lately, these areprobably going to have to be
trained Quite, quite, quiteemphatically, actually, and
(26:41):
hopefully the company that we'retalking about as a target
company for this has the culturethat could open to this, because
it does require a mind shift,and not just in work and how you
work, but also how thatrelationship happens between the
manager and the employee, right?
Sarah Katherine Sch (27:00):
Absolutely.
You know, I spent a fair bit oftime in learning and development
roles, and it was that mindsetshift that was the hardest to
train managers in, and it again,became the proverbial rock up a
hill. And ultimately, that'swhere I I said, there's a better
way to do it, and I want to godo it in a in a way where it's
appreciated and where it can beaccepted and embraced. But
(27:24):
you're right. It starts withtraining your managers. It
starts with actually trainingyour leadership and making sure
that they're all aligned,because if they're not stacking
hands, then then none of thiswill be successful, and it will
all be for naught.
David Turetsky (27:41):
No you'll get that leader who goes jet. Don't
worry. You don't have to dothis. It's okay. Yeah, there's
always one. I'll talk to HR.
We'll extend your group. Youcan, you can do the annual
review. Don't worry about it.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (27:54):
But then you're not, you're not
equipping them to articulate thelonger term vision. So you
failed on the change managementside.
David Turetsky (28:02):
Exactly! But that's why, that you're correct,
that leaders have to lock hands,that this is required, that
we're going to be doing thisacross the board, and there is
no don't worry, I'll talk to HRabout it. That doesn't exist.
Dwight Brown (28:19):
You got to be able to show the value of it.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (28:21):
Right! Absolutely, and, and Performance
Management can't just be an HRprocess. Like, that's, that's
what?
David Turetsky (28:30):
Yeah, when HR, I'm looking at the reviews,
yeah, and you haven't turned inyour reviews for 2000 people?
Yeah, yep, right. I get itpolice,
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (28:42):
Where's where's the sense of ownership
on that manager, though, like,where's the sense of ownership?
David Turetsky (28:46):
To your point, it hadn't become a business And
process. From the goal settingthrough the goal updates
throughout the year, the checkins through the evaluation. Hey,
listen, we've had theseconversations throughout the
year. You've done a really goodjob. You've met all your goals.
We've talked where you've hadchallenges. I've tried to break
down some of those issues thatyou've had, and no blockers
(29:09):
anymore. You You were able toaccomplish all your goals. So
great job. You gotta, you gottameet expectations. Wait, what? I
gotta meet expectations. Isatisfied all my goals, yeah,
but you didn't, you weren'texceptional. You just met all
your goals. And that's, that'swhere the other part gets in.
You know, there has to be analignment on what does
(29:29):
Performance Manager mean? Whatdoes it affect? How does it How
does it impact you? What do Ineed to do? Set me an example
for what is outstandingperformance versus what's just
enough and and then collaborateacross your entire organization
and calibrate and make sureeverybody knows what stellar,
outstanding and exceptionalmeans. Instead of it being
Dwight, you know, he reviews hispeople. I review mine. Half of
(29:53):
mine are exceptional, and helooks and he goes, Wait a
minute. Wait a minute. Youmissed all your numbers. My
group doubled their goals. Anoutput. What are you doing,
David?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (30:03):
I call that norming on your ratings and
your rankings. And so you haveto norm with your managers on
what those whether it'sinconsistent, performer,
developing, performer,outstanding performer. You want
your managers rating and rankingvery consistently across the
board to reduce bias. Yes, therewill still be calibration that
(30:25):
needs to happen. There usuallyalways is. But when you're
setting that foundation withyour managers and your leaders,
of this is the example, or theseare the examples, provide more
than one example Your heavens,and when you're setting that
that norming with them beingreally clear about here are the
(30:45):
scenarios. Let's throw out ascenario. Let's throw out an
instant and being able to get amind share on those things is
really important.
David Turetsky (30:54):
And how about we have the business lead those
discussions and not? HR, yeah,so that, by the way, my dad's
name is Norm So, or was so. Howabout nor the norm becomes
something that everybody acrossthe business can latch on to
because they own it, not. HR,going, Hey, Dwight, Hey, David,
(31:15):
I think we have a problem withyour distribution... What?
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (31:20):
That that bell curve
David Turetsky (31:23):
Let's look at your distribution.
Dwight Brown (31:24):
It'll get you every time
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (31:25):
it'll get you every time
David Turetsky (31:27):
50% of your team is not exceeds expectations,
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (31:32):
yep.
Well, what leaders are afraidabout there is that they will be
held to the same standards,right? And they'll be held
accountable for their ownperformance. And I think that's,
that's the hardest thing formanagers and leaders to be okay
with, is that it's, it's acrossthe board. These are the norms.
(31:52):
Here's what you're heldaccountable to.
David Turetsky (31:53):
Yeah. Sarah Katherine, I don't know about
you, but a lot of theorganizations I lived in and
worked in, the leaders never didperformance valuation, so we
could never look at them and go,All right, so what were your
ratings? Because they didn'texist. Because they were, I'm
too busy. It's not for me. It'sfor everybody else. Or they get
a pass from the CEO. Well, yeah,because the CEO is not doing his
(32:15):
evaluation either, or she's notdoing hers either, right? So,
you know, really?
Dwight Brown (32:20):
Flows up bill and it flows downhill.
David Turetsky (32:23):
Yes, it does.
Dwight, and it's calledplumbing.
Dwight Brown (32:26):
Yeah right...
Exactly.
David Turetsky (32:37):
Sarah Katherine, it's been really fun having you
on the HR data labs podcast.
This is a conversation we couldcontinue to have for hours, but
unfortunately, we respect ourlisteners, and their heads are
spinning for all the phenomenalinformation you fed them today.
So thank you so much for beingon the podcast. Oh,
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (32:55):
Oh thank you so much. I hope
they're spinning in the rightdirection and in a positive way,
David Turetsky (32:59):
in a way that's true there, so don't let us know
in the comments if they don't,if they didn't like it, and I,
I'm hoping they did.
Sarah Katherine Schmidt (33:09):
I hope you all enjoyed listening. And
David Dwight, thank you so much.
Appreciate the time.
David Turetsky (33:14):
Thank you. Sarah Katherine,
Dwight Brown (33:15):
thanks for being with us. Yeah.
David Turetsky (33:17):
And thank you, Dwight, thank you, my pleasure.
Thank you for listening. Takecare and stay safe.
Announcer (33:22):
That was the HR Data Labs podcast. If you liked the
episode, please subscribe. Andif you know anyone that might
like to hear it, please send ittheir way. Thank you for joining
us this week, and stay tuned forour next episode. Stay safe. Yo
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