September 18, 2025 • 36 mins
How is creative effectiveness being redefined in a world powered by first-party data and retail media? In this episode, Nick Brunker is joined by Mari Sokolowski, Performance Marketing Personalization Lead at Haleon, to explore the evolution of creative from a static asset to a living, dynamic system. They discuss how brands are adapting to retailers becoming powerful media companies, the mindset marketers need to bridge the gap between art and the algorithm, and the importance of balancing short-term performance with long-term brand love to create experiences that feel like a service, not a sell.
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Episode Transcript
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Nick Brunker (00:02):
Hi, everyone, and welcome to human centered. I'm
Nick Brunker, a managingdirector of experience strategy
at VML and your host for theshow. Thanks for giving us a
listen. Today, we're diving intohow creative effectiveness is
being completely redefined. In aworld powered by first party
data, we're gonna explore howcreative has evolved from a
static asset to a living system.
(00:23):
We'll discuss how brands areadapting to retailers becoming
media companies, and mostimportantly, what kind of
mindset mindset marketers needto bridge the gap between art
and the algorithm. To help usnavigate this landscape, I'm
thrilled to welcome in MariSopkolowski, a seasoned
marketing expert and currentlythe performance marketing
personalization lead at Halion.With a fantastic background
(00:45):
leading growth in retailpublishing and for major brands,
she's got a deep firsthandunderstanding of how to connect
creative data and commerce in ameaningful way. I've been really
looking forward to thisconversation. Mari, welcome to
the show.
Thanks for joining us.
Mari Sokolowski (00:59):
Nick, thank you so much for having me. I'm
really excited to be here aswell, and I love the topic that
we have for today.
Nick Brunker (01:06):
Yes. And and it's gonna be a very deep
conversation. There's a lot toget into. So to start, before we
get into the nitty gritty, tellus a bit about your current role
and how it connects to all thesebig ideas we're talking about.
Mari Sokolowski (01:17):
Yeah, so I'm currently working on the
performance marketing team atHalion and I'm really charged
with bringing personalizationinto the company, meaning, how
do we work end to end from theway that we drive creative to
the way that we bring ourcampaigns to life and even how
(01:39):
we optimize them on the backend, all really driven by deep
consumer insights and how weconnect best with the consumers.
Nick Brunker (01:47):
You also have a really interesting background of
how you got to where you are atSpanz publishing and retail and
obviously now consumer health.Walk us through some of that
career journey and how all ofthose experiences have shaped
your perspective.
Mari Sokolowski (02:00):
Yeah. Well, I started off at the agency side,
so you kinda get a crash courseacross all these pieces, but
where I really cut my teeth inbusiness was with the franchise
called Pinot's Palette. And ifyou remember back to like 2010,
2011, there was this like socialphenomenon happening on social
(02:21):
media and really in like everymajor city. I was living in
Houston at the time and met theco founders of Pinot's Palette
and got really excited about theopportunity to be their first
full time employee. Andexperience while I didn't know
(02:41):
it at the time was so relevantand important to the
opportunities that I've had inCPG and OTC especially with
Halion over the past couple ofyears.
So what was really interestingabout that is when you're
building a retail chain and it'sa startup type of environment
everything that was going onaround customer loyalty programs
(03:02):
at the time really had a frontrow seat working with the co
founders to develop the tech andto understand the importance of
personalizing as well as getthis firsthand experience with
modular creative as you'reworking across franchises and
(03:22):
managing multiple brand.coms andunderstanding how the consumer
while they might be experiencingdifferent locations or different
events is really all part oflike the same ecosystem for the
brand. And I find thatexperience so applicable to what
(03:43):
I'm doing now at Halion. It'slike I've got the roadmap.
Nick Brunker (03:46):
Let's dive into it then. It feels like this is a
central challenge for marketerstoday, creative effectiveness
and navigating a performancedriven world, balancing the need
for short term wins with longterm brand love, and then
figuring out, the fun part, inmy opinion, how to optimize for
what's really meaningful, notjust what's fast and easy. So to
(04:08):
kick us off, share how you'veseen creative evolve from the
static assets to something moredynamic and responsive.
Mari Sokolowski (04:15):
Oh, I love this question so much. It is gonna
really date me, I I think, Iremember back to like 2006
something, like the Internet wasjust getting monetized and we
had, I was at the agency at thetime and we had a new brand
manager come in and reallychallenged the plans that we had
in place, which were quitetraditional. I mean, is like
(04:37):
magazine, right? Billboard,television, of course. And what
the brand manager asked for waslike, could you show me a plan
that's a 100% digital?
And we kind of got stuffed inour tracks. We couldn't even
imagine like, we even sourceenough inventory to meet the
(04:58):
demand that the manager isasking for? So just like fun
historical example of like,where have we been with this
static assets and literallycalling them billboards back in
the day? I think we could getsometimes a personalization
through contextual alignmentpotentially with the publishers
(05:22):
you're selecting. But now thedata frameworks, the measurement
available are just fascinating.
And all of that, like a lot ofthat is coming through the
retail partnerships and themodular creative we can use, the
contextually aware portions ofthat being able to optimize in
(05:43):
flight to how the consumer isresponding to those messages. I
mean, that's where we're at now.And so it's like night and day,
right? Not only can we find allthis inventory but we can really
fine tune the messages thatwe're putting in them. So almost
every touch point becomes thislike super relevant opportunity
to build our brands with theconsumers.
(06:03):
And I think like there's a lotcoming up here too that's so
exciting and something that Ilove to listen to on your
podcast too around AI, right?Like everyone's talking about
this and the value it can bringwith our consumers.
Nick Brunker (06:16):
It's the fascinating distinction between
the first party data and theprecision that that can give us,
but then also the resonanceneeded for being effective. And
I'm curious for for somebodythat has has kinda seen it the
evolution of of the technologyand and now like what it seems
to be kind of an overabundanceof data at times. How do you
(06:37):
approach building that deeperemotional and behavioral memory
instead of just doing what weused to do years ago is just
clicks, clicks, impressions,clicks. Like, tell me about that
distinction.
Mari Sokolowski (06:48):
I think from, what I learned in the
franchising model, again, likesuper applicable to what's going
on now is we talked a lot aboutoperational marketing. And this
is the idea that good experiencein the store, I'm talking about
in the store, right? Wouldreally lead to great
word-of-mouth. And of course,like at the time in this
(07:11):
industry really accelerated bysocial,
Nick Brunker (07:13):
not
Mari Sokolowski (07:14):
too different about like what's going on now
by the way. But now we reallyhave the opportunity to measure
more with not just the in storeexperience and how consumers are
reacting emotionally to thatexperience, but really what is
their emotional experience, thedigital ad, right? Like that's
such a compelling measurementpiece. And when we think about
(07:38):
the net promoter score and howwe used to use that for our in
store consumers, I think this iskind of like the evolution of
that. So how can we see thatemotional response, that
willingness for our consumers toengage, but also really bring
that into their daily lifethrough that emotional record
(07:59):
that we can get through some ofthose new technologies.
Nick Brunker (08:02):
There's also a really interesting tension to
pull on. And anybody who's inperformance marketing yourself,
you know, chief among them,there's always that I have to
perform in the short term. Shortterm performance is gonna help
us continue building thebusiness. Yet there's also, on
the other side, the longer viewof, well, what's the brand look
like long term? How do I lay thefoundation and continue to build
(08:24):
the brand from a long termperspective?
It's a classic struggle. Howwould you advise brands based on
your experience balancing theneed for those immediate results
with also the investment in thelong term equity?
Mari Sokolowski (08:35):
Yeah, I think this is like the biggest
opportunity to blend the world,right? Sales and marketing are
just so joined right now. Andwhen you think about a modular
template, right? And the equitycomponents that can be built
into that, like your logo, likeyour distinctive assets, And
(08:58):
those things can remainconsistent while the pieces that
are driving performance, whetherthat's the price or the call to
action or the message or thevisual that you're putting in
and how that might be superhyper contextualized and
relevant to the consumer in thatenvironment. That's the place
where you could have the best ofboth worlds.
(09:19):
And I see this when I talk withthe brand teams about this
opportunity, they immediatelyunderstand, okay, I can have my
campaign idea, but apply this ina way that my consumers will
relate to even more than, youknow, a message that might be
one to all, right?
Nick Brunker (09:37):
One other thing that I really am interested in
in terms of the thematics ofthis episode is how retail is
really, becoming the newpublisher and how you build
human experiences around that inthis world, especially at at
Halion, a major place where allof this is coming to a head is
(09:57):
at that retail landscape. Andthat's undergoing a massive
transformation. They'rebecoming, in many cases, as
powerful media companies intheir own right. So let's talk a
little bit about what a trulyhuman centered retail experience
looks like now and how brandscan use data to make it feel
more like a service and lesslike a sell. So the first
(10:19):
question out of that is, you'veworked across the retail
publishing and brand sitesexperience and in your career,
what does truly human centeredretail experience look like to
you?
Mari Sokolowski (10:30):
One of my most favorite projects while I've
been at Halion and by way of GSKand kind of on thread with like
this idea of delighting theconsumer, right? And creating
that joy and opportunity forconsumers to like continue that
story of your brand for you is agift with purchase program,
(10:55):
right? And these have beenaround for a while as promos but
what I loved about this wasactually leading a customer care
package project where we thoughtabout who is the consumer and
what is their end wellness goaland what are some of the cross
category or other wellnessproducts that would make sense
(11:16):
to introduce to this consumerwho had like a very specific
wellness goal in mind. And welooked across a few
manufacturers, everyone was soexcited to participate in this.
And we actually were able to getlike a verbatim customer review
on the PDP of this gift withpurchase.
(11:38):
And they were really excited notjust for the free product, which
was a great ad, but also thatthe contents were super
thoughtful to what theirwellness journey goals were and
that they were helpful. And theywere getting introduced to kind
of this cool care package thatencompass not just the products
(11:59):
from Halion per se, but reallyacross the retail environment
and what could be other productsthat they might like. And so it
was a huge success with the samepromotion was repeated year over
year. I don't know if it's stillgoing on or not, but I would
love to know that. And theretailer, they had experience in
working with the retailer aswell.
(12:22):
They love this to get thefeedback with their consumers
people in the aisle because itwas such a great consumer
Nick Brunker (12:29):
And we're seeing some of the most exciting work
come from the collaborationswhere the creative is co
developed. So you're doingreally intelligent, fun,
thoughtful things because you'rethinking like a human would.
It's like, well, they like thisproduct and and a care pack
package example. Well, whatother things are tangential to
(12:50):
that maybe specific product thatcould also improve their life or
or any number of things. Andsome of that ends up coming, I
would assume with therelationship with retailers who
want to build the relationship.
So when somebody's looking for aproduct, they come to their
store. And so a lot of timeswe've been hearing and and
seeing with a lot of theclients, the creative gets co
(13:11):
developed between retailers andbrands. Why do you think that
partnership model is so muchmore effective?
Mari Sokolowski (13:17):
First of all, everyone loves a great collab,
right? I think from the consumerangle, there's a lot of trust
when you see co branded types ofcreative that come through just
through those branding elementskind of work to two plus two is
more than four sort
Nick Brunker (13:35):
of
Mari Sokolowski (13:36):
equation. But at the end of the day, it's
about that trust. It's such aconsumer focused exercise,
right? The retailers know theirconsumers forwards and
backwards. Brands know theirconsumers forwards and
backwards.
And you put those two thingstogether, I think that's really
what makes a great consumerexperience. And this is kind of
funny, but you know, it'sprobably not a data driven
(13:59):
podcast unless you're bringingup like an example from the
pandemic, right? Right. Exactly.It's a lot of data that was
happening and things that theenvironment was changing so
quickly.
I think like it was, and one ofthe examples I recall during
that time is in stocks werereally tough, everything going
(14:20):
on in supply chain and that'ssuch a great data signal. And
being able to work with theretailers on even like in stocks
to drive the message of when theconsumer can get the product
that they really need. And inOTC categories that could be
pain relief, that could becough, cold, flu relief, like
(14:40):
very, very relevant the consumerexperience at the time and even
vitamins. So this was a reallyimportant campaign and super
successful just to be able toget the message out there like,
hey, we've got product at yourstore. So come and get it.
It's on the shelves now. Andthat's just an example, I think
super relevant also toinnovation. As we think about
(15:03):
product going through the DCsand getting out onto shelves and
letting the consumers know notonly that they're aware of it,
but that it's there ready fortheir shopping experience.
Nick Brunker (15:14):
And not to go back to the pandemic too much, I
think
Mari Sokolowski (15:17):
I know.
Nick Brunker (15:17):
It it so true though that, you know, in those
times, especially in yourcategory and the brands that you
guys hold, to be able to be, youknow, trusted as not only does
the product work, but it's therewhen I need it. It has so many
ties emotionally to if I'm notfeeling well or I need to
improve just overall wellnessthat this brand was there for me
(15:39):
and they showed up. It's it'snot the same as, oh, I couldn't
order this widget or whateverthat I I needed. That would have
been nice and convenient orwhatever. We all obviously run
into those, you know, out ofstock problems at times, but it
it feels so much more, I don'tknow, meaty and important when
you're you're dealing in thespace that you're dealing in.
So I would imagine and and youjust not to pull on this thread
(16:00):
too much further, being amarketer for the brand that you
serve or the brands that youserve during the time in which
we are serving, what a wild timeto be in the business. No?
Mari Sokolowski (16:10):
It was a wild time. I was actually an analyst
on the drug channel. So it was awild Crazy. I
Nick Brunker (16:19):
mean, me through a little bit of the emotions too
of it, because everything wasmoving so fast and information
in the health space obviouslyhas a lot of, you know, legal
ties to it and there's, youknow, privacy issues and all
kinds of things that you'reyou're dealing with. It's a
highly regulated industry. Ijust find it fascinating how,
(16:41):
you know, where there are a lotof ties to dot Ts to cross, I
think that's the adage. It'scrazy how fast you guys as
marketers would have to bereally adapting on a dime.
Right?
Mari Sokolowski (16:52):
Yeah. And I think that's, you know, the
financial industry is a lot likethis too, where there's a lot of
regulation around the data youcan and can't use. Really,
really always careful aroundthat. And that's where some of
the data triggers that don'teven touch any of those
(17:14):
restricted areas really comeinto play are super important
for categories like that we'rein with OTC. So time, day, in
stocks, weather, how do you takethese like sort of broader
consumer experience triggers?
Because at the same time, ourproducts are really applicable
(17:34):
to a broad audience. If you lookat the portfolio Halion has, you
probably have one of ourproducts in your medicine
cabinet today. There is thisspecific symptom relief in many
of our categories but at thesame time pretty broadly
applicable across generalpopulation. What was really
(17:56):
interesting in needing to adaptat that time was that it was
very manual. We did not have allthe pipes in this industry and
we like barely had retail dataat the time, you know, and then
with in the way that we do nowthrough DSP platforms.
Nick Brunker (18:11):
So
Mari Sokolowski (18:12):
it was, manual of find the locations, use the
data. We had the data, but likekind of find it. And then how
often, what's the cadence ofworking with agency partners to
get the campaign updated?
Nick Brunker (18:27):
No doubt. And I think on the other end of that
spectrum, with the explosion ofretail data, how much data there
there legitimately is, there's areal risk of just creating more
noise and you're, you know,almost analysis paralysis and
brands needing to cut throughall of that while also
partnering with retailers tosay, how can we genuinely be
(18:49):
helpful and relevant to theshopper journey? How do you do
that? How do brands likeyourselves cut through that
noise so that the data you wereable to mine from your partners
at the retail side and obviouslyall your one piece stuff is
actually making a difference?
Mari Sokolowski (19:04):
The purchase data is such a strong indicator,
right? And finding when I thinkabout like the retail
experience, especially inentertainment, was where Pinot's
palette was kind of sitting. Theticket sales were a great
indicator and you could kind oflook at what types of paintings
people like or what was theevent theme for the night,
(19:28):
whether it was a date night or agirl's night out or even a
corporate team building eventand be able to remarket in those
areas. So I think like as retailmedia and category and lapsed
buyers and all of that becomesmore and more part of the
brand's plan and this likemerging of sales and the
(19:49):
marketing and it's really allthe same funnel. So that's
happening but I have to go backagain to this, that the broad
application of data which iscoming in part out of retail
data, but also very widelyavailable just through like demo
targeting.
We're seeing just incredibleamount of success and coming at
(20:13):
personalization from a broadtarget as well. And I think
that's really exciting. I thinkthe technology and partners that
we work with to enable this,like the technology is not quite
there. Like how do you optimizetowards some of these higher
funnel KPIs, right? There'sbetas, we've done some of this
(20:36):
stuff, but I think it's a hugeopportunity as we think about
DTV, CTV, and really creatingthat full funnel commerce
experience with the consumer.
Nick Brunker (20:47):
And you speak about media. It seems like the
goal is to make it feel morelike a service, not a sell. So
what does it take to make anexperience feel like it's more
I'm understanding you versus I'mtargeting you because I have
this data. That's a tricky one.
Mari Sokolowski (21:04):
Yeah, when you get it right, it's just perfect.
The consumer just reallyunderstands and appreciates.
It's really entertaining whenit's done well, right? And I
think we all know probablyexperienced firsthand that we're
spending, six or seven hours aday on screens between your
(21:26):
phones, computers, TVs. We'vealways got one in our pocket.
We wanna get a screen in ourpocket.
Nick Brunker (21:30):
And
Mari Sokolowski (21:32):
almost 90% of Americans are using that second
device, a phone or tablet whilethey're watching television. So
you've got multiple screenshappening at the same time. And
I think for advertisers tocontinue to be super relevant
and entertain their consumers inthis way that makes media not
feel like a service or feel likea service and not a sell. It's
(21:56):
really important to considerwhat creative you're putting
there. And like the recentexample of course is Angel Soft
at the Super Bowl, like sohighly relevant, super engaging.
Nick Brunker (22:06):
I
Mari Sokolowski (22:06):
think it all took us a minute to figure out
what's going on. But once wedid, the consumer without even
being a marketer knows what agreat consumer insight that is.
And here at Halion, we've got areally great creative asset that
intersection of our Flonasebrand with the Bridgerton
creative. And it was anintegrated production and just
(22:29):
so well done because all thesebeautiful actors come out and
the storyline just really putFlonies as a hero position. Was
just so well done.
Super entertaining and a littlebit unexpected there. And one
more example that I just thinkreally hit home to me as me
being an ice cream lover isthere's a Telente CTV or DTV. I
(22:53):
think it was maybe on Netflix,but here I am late at night,
I've got my ice cream in hand, amid bite. And Telente comes up
with the Bradley Cooper spot andthey're telling me I can order
it on DoorDash. I would havescanned that code so fast if I
didn't already have my ice creamin hand.
(23:15):
I thought, wow, targeting hasgotten really good.
Nick Brunker (23:18):
How did you know?
Mari Sokolowski (23:19):
And like, gold star. Yeah. I totally
appreciated that. That that wasa service. Right?
Like, here, you know, if Ididn't already have it, I woulda
I totally jumped in.
Nick Brunker (23:27):
And testing the willpower too. It's like, yeah,
I'm eating some now, but I mightbe able to get another show in
if I buy this now. Yeah. And andspeaking from somebody who lives
in the Midwest and Cincinnati iswhere I'm located, Flonase is is
that's a five out of five. Youneed that sucker, especially in
the fall.
So that's awesome. Yeah. I thinkthe other interesting thing that
(23:50):
I wanted to get into with youand just get your perspective on
is the marketing organization ofthe future or the marketer of
the future. And we've talkedabout the evolution of creative
and the transformation ofretail. And that brings us to
the people behind the work,which oftentimes are the most
important part, if not the mostimportant part.
(24:10):
So to connect these dots, thecreative, the data, and the
commerce, it seems to require avery specific set of skills and
maybe more importantly, aspecific mindset to thrive in
all this complexity. And I thinkyou mentioned AI earlier and how
we talk a lot about it. Thoseare the two most, you know, used
letters in all of our spacethese days. There is still a
(24:32):
massive need for AI and thetechnology that underpins it,
but the humans behind it arealso gonna have to ultimately
power it. And so what kind oftalent or mindset do you think
will define this next generationof marketers?
Mari Sokolowski (24:47):
I think it's a great question. Like, I also
struggle with that with myself.Skills do I need to be building
in my own? How do I reallyleverage the power of AI? And I
think that brings me to thismindset of just very curious,
very, very curious marketers ofthe future.
Of how do we really harnesseverything that's going on? And
(25:09):
just from my own career having adiverse background, we hear that
a lot. In my case, industries,different experiences across
sales, marketing, media,creative brand, even like the
creator led economy too. And howdo we either build teams that
have really diverse backgroundsor find if you're at a smaller
(25:33):
company and you don't have bigteams find people that obviously
entrepreneurial background orblend of experiences that can
really help shape and inform notjust how we're meeting our
consumers but really have a goodhandle on all the levers that we
can pull because we have thosenow, the pipes are there. And so
I think curiosity, I thinkhaving diverse backgrounds and I
(25:56):
think as the data continues, ourability to really find the
strongest consumer insights iswhat will continue to drive like
the growth of our brands, thegrowth of our companies.
And certainly AgenTeq AI isgonna help with that. All AI is
gonna help with the research andhow we communicate with the
consumers but really beingcurious about our consumers is
(26:21):
gonna be the foundation forthat.
Nick Brunker (26:22):
And how do you cultivate that? Because I think
there's kind of a learnedexercise as you go through your
career. You've you know, talkedabout that. But as somebody
who's also leading teams andyou're talking to on this
podcast other leaders who arelistening and saying, I need
that with my team. I need to getmore out of my team, and I
needed to have them be morecurious and have more empathy.
(26:45):
How would you suggest thatsomebody in that mindset would
say, how do you cultivate that?
Mari Sokolowski (26:50):
I think it's a great question. When we have to
get out of our comfort zones,right? I feel like this is a
kind of tried and true method,but it really applies here too.
For me, this is all aroundexposure. Like I click on
everything.
So just encouraging not just tolook within your company for
those resources but to look andsee what's going on. This is
(27:13):
high transformation right now.There are so many leaders out
there sharing their experiences,sharing questions of what
questions are in their mindsright now. But just getting that
exposure, whether you're throughplaces to click, signing up. I
signed up for a million emails.
I mean, you do not want to seemy inbox, my personal inbox. I
(27:37):
just sign up for everything tosee how are they messaging to me
and where is thatpersonalization opportunity? And
I think like with everythingthat is so AI, it doesn't have
all the answers and it won'tcapture all of the content that
might happen off screen or inperson. And I think it's
important to go to the industryevents, right? We see more of
(28:02):
that than ever before.
And so I think continuing tolive into those collaboration
pieces in the industry will bereally important and to give
your teams access to that. Asthese big events grow, access
could become limited. Makingsure that people on your team
have a seat in thatpresentation.
Nick Brunker (28:24):
I'm curious, you talked about your Talenti
example. Do you have anexperience from your career that
really captures the blend of artand analytics? A moment where
you saw that connection clickand what it taught you in that
moment?
Mari Sokolowski (28:38):
Okay, that's a tricky question.
Nick Brunker (28:40):
Feel like Throwing all the curve Yeah,
Mari Sokolowski (28:44):
well, it's super consistent with the theme
here and I have to just leaninto the fun of that with the
art franchise background and mypassion for data and analytics.
It's a super fun question. And Ithink you have to really lean
into this franchise. I got tolean into the question. So in
terms of the experience andfranchise ownership and really
(29:06):
the opportunity to help definethose like early days of a
startup company.
I just, I fell in love with thisservice here and their tagline
at the time. I'm not sure ifit's still his name or not, but
paint, drink, have fun. And itwas just a master class in a
business ownership trulyeverything from we talked about
(29:28):
launching a customer loyaltyprogram, the 1P data that came
along with that to bookkeepingall of the analytics parts of
that as well. The cash flow andthe balance sheets were driving
constant rigor on theinvestments for media and
marketing or any otherinvestment that our owners had
(29:50):
that I had as a franchise owner,a unit owner as well. And so
when I think about the blend ofart analytics, it doesn't get
more representative of reallythat seven years of my career.
Nick Brunker (30:02):
That's so cool. It seems in some of this as you
were kind of leading to theexperience you had around how
your leaders worked togetherwith you on making it feel like
this is a good brand story. Itwas an experience and people
wanted to engage with it. It itfeels like as much as there
there is a technical challengeto some of this, it's also a
(30:24):
leadership challenge. So how canleaders foster that culture that
that's truly bridging the artand the algorithm in the world
we live to unlock meaningfulwork?
Mari Sokolowski (30:33):
Like life is messy, right? So marketing, you
can't be in the pursuit ofperfection, right? Like there's
no perfect marketing plan. Therenever really has been, but now I
think more true than anything tohave the art part of it, to
connect with humans in a realauthentic way to participate in
(30:56):
their life. That's little likemessy.
So I think brand leaders aregonna have to let go a little
bit and focus on systems, theframeworks, the guardrails
should, those should aim forperfection. But you know, when
you have those perfected andit's repeatable and it's set,
(31:17):
then you almost have to put theconsumer in the driver's seat
and let your brand team start tohave that conversation.
Nick Brunker (31:23):
Before we wrap up, as you alluded to earlier, we
always like to wrap up with somefun facts, some off the cuff
questions and learn a little bitmore about Mari off the clock.
And I'd love to hear some of thethings that keep you busy and
maybe some fun facts peoplemight not otherwise know about
you. Do you have any?
Mari Sokolowski (31:40):
Most people who know me do know that I love to
ski. I know I ski a ton out Westbut two experiences are kind of
fun to share. It's not justabout, you know, they love to
ski but they love to train toski, right? And so I've had the
opportunity to train with twoworld renowned skiers. One was
(32:02):
in Portillo, Chile in thesummer, which is very fun to ski
in September with JohnClendenen, who has just like
this very swishy style.
And he was a two time worldfreestyle champion. Shab, if
you've ever heard of like skiballet, this guy like wrote the
book on it. Very fun.
Nick Brunker (32:19):
How did you get into that? A, I mean, obviously,
everybody, you know, who getsinto skiing usually is like,
yeah, this is awesome and wantsto continue doing it. But how
did you get synced up with John?
Mari Sokolowski (32:29):
So the person behind the syncing up there is
my dad. Like we love to ski as afamily and I'm passing this
along. I got two kids. They'vebeen on skis since they were two
years old and it's something youcan enjoy for a long time and
you can enjoy it with yourfamily. And when I think about
(32:51):
my kids growing up and going offto college and like what will we
be able to do together as afamily when they come home?
What reason would I give them tohang out with me later in life
besides babysitting grandkidspotentially. But skiing and
being outside, I have a deepappreciation for nature.
Nick Brunker (33:11):
Tell me more about some of the other activities you
like to do.
Mari Sokolowski (33:13):
Yeah. So people would guess skiing. Like it's
probably more normal type ofactivity to do. But what people
would not really guess by justyou know, meeting me in a Teams
call or something like thatwould be that I participated in
a thirty day canoe trip inNorthern Canada where we paddled
(33:34):
through the wilderness and wetracked for 440 miles.
Nick Brunker (33:39):
We What? Come on.
Mari Sokolowski (33:40):
Camped out every night. And it was an
incredible experience. Yeah.
Nick Brunker (33:45):
Thirty days like you were legitimately on the go
thirty days and, you know, everynight you'd camp somewhere and
then get back on the water thenext day for thirty days.
Mari Sokolowski (33:56):
Yeah. On the go and off the grid, like,
completely off the grid.
Nick Brunker (33:59):
So nobody was, like, filming this for the
Discovery Channel or something?Because, I mean, this sounds
like like your life could be oneof those TV shows. My goodness.
That's crazy.
Mari Sokolowski (34:08):
I think there was, like, an emergency radio in
case we really got in trouble.But, yeah, we were off the grid.
Nick Brunker (34:14):
So what what was the coolest thing that you saw
if you could, you know, pointpoint it to one thing over the
thirty days that it reallysticks in your mind?
Mari Sokolowski (34:21):
Well, the wildlife, right? And we had been
camping. There's all these likemini islands and Reindeer Lake,
look it up there. It's abeautiful area of Northern
Saskatchewan. And we had beencamping on these small islands
partly to avoid bears and cometo be halfway through the trap
(34:41):
and we're canoeing along hereand a bear starts swimming up
not really next to us.
We were never in danger but wethought wow, our our island
strategy really isn't reallyisn't where it's at because
these bears can swim and we hadkind of forgotten about that.
Nick Brunker (34:56):
That's unbelievable. And is that
something that looking back,would you do it again? Or is
that one of those, I'm glad Idid it, but I'm never gonna do
that again?
Mari Sokolowski (35:07):
I think, there's trucking in my future.
So I don't know when or where orwho with. Part I think the the
challenge right now is the whoto go with. Right? So if there's
any listeners out there that,are planning to track, I'd love
to go to Patagonia.
Nick Brunker (35:22):
Yes. I'll I'll make sure that we we sync up all
your contact info in the shownotes. Can you you get some
tracking tracking friends to gowith you. Mari, this has been
such a great conversation. Iknow we've been looking forward
to this for for many weeks now.
Thank you so much for taking thetime and being willing to share
your expertise with us, andwe'll look forward to doing it
again. Thanks a lot.
Mari Sokolowski (35:42):
Thanks, Nick. This is a lot of fun.
Nick Brunker (35:44):
And thanks to you all for listening to Human
Centered as well. If you'd liketo connect with Marie, we've
included her LinkedIn profile,or maybe you could just go
tracking with her. It's in theshow notes. And you can also
learn more about the innovativework they're doing at Halion by
visiting them on the web athalion.com. We'd also love to
hear your feedback on the show.
Give us a rating and offer upyour thoughts wherever you
listen to your podcasts,including Apple, Spotify,
(36:06):
Stitcher, Amazon, and many more.If you've got a topic idea or
just wanna drop us a line,connect with me on x at Nick
Bruuncker, or just shoot us anemail. The address is
humancentered@VML.com. Thanksagain for listening. We'll see
you next time.
Hi, everyone, and welcome to human centered. I'm
Nick Brunker, a managingdirector of experience strategy
at VML and your host for theshow. Thanks for giving us a
listen. Today, we're diving intohow creative effectiveness is
being completely redefined. In aworld powered by first party
data, we're gonna explore howcreative has evolved from a
static asset to a living system.
(00:23):
We'll discuss how brands areadapting to retailers becoming
media companies, and mostimportantly, what kind of
mindset mindset marketers needto bridge the gap between art
and the algorithm. To help usnavigate this landscape, I'm
thrilled to welcome in MariSopkolowski, a seasoned
marketing expert and currentlythe performance marketing
personalization lead at Halion.With a fantastic background
(00:45):
leading growth in retailpublishing and for major brands,
she's got a deep firsthandunderstanding of how to connect
creative data and commerce in ameaningful way. I've been really
looking forward to thisconversation. Mari, welcome to
the show.
Thanks for joining us.
Mari Sokolowski (00:59):
Nick, thank you so much for having me. I'm
really excited to be here aswell, and I love the topic that
we have for today.
Nick Brunker (01:06):
Yes. And and it's gonna be a very deep
conversation. There's a lot toget into. So to start, before we
get into the nitty gritty, tellus a bit about your current role
and how it connects to all thesebig ideas we're talking about.
Mari Sokolowski (01:17):
Yeah, so I'm currently working on the
performance marketing team atHalion and I'm really charged
with bringing personalizationinto the company, meaning, how
do we work end to end from theway that we drive creative to
the way that we bring ourcampaigns to life and even how
(01:39):
we optimize them on the backend, all really driven by deep
consumer insights and how weconnect best with the consumers.
Nick Brunker (01:47):
You also have a really interesting background of
how you got to where you are atSpanz publishing and retail and
obviously now consumer health.Walk us through some of that
career journey and how all ofthose experiences have shaped
your perspective.
Mari Sokolowski (02:00):
Yeah. Well, I started off at the agency side,
so you kinda get a crash courseacross all these pieces, but
where I really cut my teeth inbusiness was with the franchise
called Pinot's Palette. And ifyou remember back to like 2010,
2011, there was this like socialphenomenon happening on social
(02:21):
media and really in like everymajor city. I was living in
Houston at the time and met theco founders of Pinot's Palette
and got really excited about theopportunity to be their first
full time employee. Andexperience while I didn't know
(02:41):
it at the time was so relevantand important to the
opportunities that I've had inCPG and OTC especially with
Halion over the past couple ofyears.
So what was really interestingabout that is when you're
building a retail chain and it'sa startup type of environment
everything that was going onaround customer loyalty programs
(03:02):
at the time really had a frontrow seat working with the co
founders to develop the tech andto understand the importance of
personalizing as well as getthis firsthand experience with
modular creative as you'reworking across franchises and
(03:22):
managing multiple brand.coms andunderstanding how the consumer
while they might be experiencingdifferent locations or different
events is really all part oflike the same ecosystem for the
brand. And I find thatexperience so applicable to what
(03:43):
I'm doing now at Halion. It'slike I've got the roadmap.
Nick Brunker (03:46):
Let's dive into it then. It feels like this is a
central challenge for marketerstoday, creative effectiveness
and navigating a performancedriven world, balancing the need
for short term wins with longterm brand love, and then
figuring out, the fun part, inmy opinion, how to optimize for
what's really meaningful, notjust what's fast and easy. So to
(04:08):
kick us off, share how you'veseen creative evolve from the
static assets to something moredynamic and responsive.
Mari Sokolowski (04:15):
Oh, I love this question so much. It is gonna
really date me, I I think, Iremember back to like 2006
something, like the Internet wasjust getting monetized and we
had, I was at the agency at thetime and we had a new brand
manager come in and reallychallenged the plans that we had
in place, which were quitetraditional. I mean, is like
(04:37):
magazine, right? Billboard,television, of course. And what
the brand manager asked for waslike, could you show me a plan
that's a 100% digital?
And we kind of got stuffed inour tracks. We couldn't even
imagine like, we even sourceenough inventory to meet the
(04:58):
demand that the manager isasking for? So just like fun
historical example of like,where have we been with this
static assets and literallycalling them billboards back in
the day? I think we could getsometimes a personalization
through contextual alignmentpotentially with the publishers
(05:22):
you're selecting. But now thedata frameworks, the measurement
available are just fascinating.
And all of that, like a lot ofthat is coming through the
retail partnerships and themodular creative we can use, the
contextually aware portions ofthat being able to optimize in
(05:43):
flight to how the consumer isresponding to those messages. I
mean, that's where we're at now.And so it's like night and day,
right? Not only can we find allthis inventory but we can really
fine tune the messages thatwe're putting in them. So almost
every touch point becomes thislike super relevant opportunity
to build our brands with theconsumers.
(06:03):
And I think like there's a lotcoming up here too that's so
exciting and something that Ilove to listen to on your
podcast too around AI, right?Like everyone's talking about
this and the value it can bringwith our consumers.
Nick Brunker (06:16):
It's the fascinating distinction between
the first party data and theprecision that that can give us,
but then also the resonanceneeded for being effective. And
I'm curious for for somebodythat has has kinda seen it the
evolution of of the technologyand and now like what it seems
to be kind of an overabundanceof data at times. How do you
(06:37):
approach building that deeperemotional and behavioral memory
instead of just doing what weused to do years ago is just
clicks, clicks, impressions,clicks. Like, tell me about that
distinction.
Mari Sokolowski (06:48):
I think from, what I learned in the
franchising model, again, likesuper applicable to what's going
on now is we talked a lot aboutoperational marketing. And this
is the idea that good experiencein the store, I'm talking about
in the store, right? Wouldreally lead to great
word-of-mouth. And of course,like at the time in this
(07:11):
industry really accelerated bysocial,
Nick Brunker (07:13):
not
Mari Sokolowski (07:14):
too different about like what's going on now
by the way. But now we reallyhave the opportunity to measure
more with not just the in storeexperience and how consumers are
reacting emotionally to thatexperience, but really what is
their emotional experience, thedigital ad, right? Like that's
such a compelling measurementpiece. And when we think about
(07:38):
the net promoter score and howwe used to use that for our in
store consumers, I think this iskind of like the evolution of
that. So how can we see thatemotional response, that
willingness for our consumers toengage, but also really bring
that into their daily lifethrough that emotional record
(07:59):
that we can get through some ofthose new technologies.
Nick Brunker (08:02):
There's also a really interesting tension to
pull on. And anybody who's inperformance marketing yourself,
you know, chief among them,there's always that I have to
perform in the short term. Shortterm performance is gonna help
us continue building thebusiness. Yet there's also, on
the other side, the longer viewof, well, what's the brand look
like long term? How do I lay thefoundation and continue to build
(08:24):
the brand from a long termperspective?
It's a classic struggle. Howwould you advise brands based on
your experience balancing theneed for those immediate results
with also the investment in thelong term equity?
Mari Sokolowski (08:35):
Yeah, I think this is like the biggest
opportunity to blend the world,right? Sales and marketing are
just so joined right now. Andwhen you think about a modular
template, right? And the equitycomponents that can be built
into that, like your logo, likeyour distinctive assets, And
(08:58):
those things can remainconsistent while the pieces that
are driving performance, whetherthat's the price or the call to
action or the message or thevisual that you're putting in
and how that might be superhyper contextualized and
relevant to the consumer in thatenvironment. That's the place
where you could have the best ofboth worlds.
(09:19):
And I see this when I talk withthe brand teams about this
opportunity, they immediatelyunderstand, okay, I can have my
campaign idea, but apply this ina way that my consumers will
relate to even more than, youknow, a message that might be
one to all, right?
Nick Brunker (09:37):
One other thing that I really am interested in
in terms of the thematics ofthis episode is how retail is
really, becoming the newpublisher and how you build
human experiences around that inthis world, especially at at
Halion, a major place where allof this is coming to a head is
(09:57):
at that retail landscape. Andthat's undergoing a massive
transformation. They'rebecoming, in many cases, as
powerful media companies intheir own right. So let's talk a
little bit about what a trulyhuman centered retail experience
looks like now and how brandscan use data to make it feel
more like a service and lesslike a sell. So the first
(10:19):
question out of that is, you'veworked across the retail
publishing and brand sitesexperience and in your career,
what does truly human centeredretail experience look like to
you?
Mari Sokolowski (10:30):
One of my most favorite projects while I've
been at Halion and by way of GSKand kind of on thread with like
this idea of delighting theconsumer, right? And creating
that joy and opportunity forconsumers to like continue that
story of your brand for you is agift with purchase program,
(10:55):
right? And these have beenaround for a while as promos but
what I loved about this wasactually leading a customer care
package project where we thoughtabout who is the consumer and
what is their end wellness goaland what are some of the cross
category or other wellnessproducts that would make sense
(11:16):
to introduce to this consumerwho had like a very specific
wellness goal in mind. And welooked across a few
manufacturers, everyone was soexcited to participate in this.
And we actually were able to getlike a verbatim customer review
on the PDP of this gift withpurchase.
(11:38):
And they were really excited notjust for the free product, which
was a great ad, but also thatthe contents were super
thoughtful to what theirwellness journey goals were and
that they were helpful. And theywere getting introduced to kind
of this cool care package thatencompass not just the products
(11:59):
from Halion per se, but reallyacross the retail environment
and what could be other productsthat they might like. And so it
was a huge success with the samepromotion was repeated year over
year. I don't know if it's stillgoing on or not, but I would
love to know that. And theretailer, they had experience in
working with the retailer aswell.
(12:22):
They love this to get thefeedback with their consumers
people in the aisle because itwas such a great consumer
Nick Brunker (12:29):
And we're seeing some of the most exciting work
come from the collaborationswhere the creative is co
developed. So you're doingreally intelligent, fun,
thoughtful things because you'rethinking like a human would.
It's like, well, they like thisproduct and and a care pack
package example. Well, whatother things are tangential to
(12:50):
that maybe specific product thatcould also improve their life or
or any number of things. Andsome of that ends up coming, I
would assume with therelationship with retailers who
want to build the relationship.
So when somebody's looking for aproduct, they come to their
store. And so a lot of timeswe've been hearing and and
seeing with a lot of theclients, the creative gets co
(13:11):
developed between retailers andbrands. Why do you think that
partnership model is so muchmore effective?
Mari Sokolowski (13:17):
First of all, everyone loves a great collab,
right? I think from the consumerangle, there's a lot of trust
when you see co branded types ofcreative that come through just
through those branding elementskind of work to two plus two is
more than four sort
Nick Brunker (13:35):
of
Mari Sokolowski (13:36):
equation. But at the end of the day, it's
about that trust. It's such aconsumer focused exercise,
right? The retailers know theirconsumers forwards and
backwards. Brands know theirconsumers forwards and
backwards.
And you put those two thingstogether, I think that's really
what makes a great consumerexperience. And this is kind of
funny, but you know, it'sprobably not a data driven
(13:59):
podcast unless you're bringingup like an example from the
pandemic, right? Right. Exactly.It's a lot of data that was
happening and things that theenvironment was changing so
quickly.
I think like it was, and one ofthe examples I recall during
that time is in stocks werereally tough, everything going
(14:20):
on in supply chain and that'ssuch a great data signal. And
being able to work with theretailers on even like in stocks
to drive the message of when theconsumer can get the product
that they really need. And inOTC categories that could be
pain relief, that could becough, cold, flu relief, like
(14:40):
very, very relevant the consumerexperience at the time and even
vitamins. So this was a reallyimportant campaign and super
successful just to be able toget the message out there like,
hey, we've got product at yourstore. So come and get it.
It's on the shelves now. Andthat's just an example, I think
super relevant also toinnovation. As we think about
(15:03):
product going through the DCsand getting out onto shelves and
letting the consumers know notonly that they're aware of it,
but that it's there ready fortheir shopping experience.
Nick Brunker (15:14):
And not to go back to the pandemic too much, I
think
Mari Sokolowski (15:17):
I know.
Nick Brunker (15:17):
It it so true though that, you know, in those
times, especially in yourcategory and the brands that you
guys hold, to be able to be, youknow, trusted as not only does
the product work, but it's therewhen I need it. It has so many
ties emotionally to if I'm notfeeling well or I need to
improve just overall wellnessthat this brand was there for me
(15:39):
and they showed up. It's it'snot the same as, oh, I couldn't
order this widget or whateverthat I I needed. That would have
been nice and convenient orwhatever. We all obviously run
into those, you know, out ofstock problems at times, but it
it feels so much more, I don'tknow, meaty and important when
you're you're dealing in thespace that you're dealing in.
So I would imagine and and youjust not to pull on this thread
(16:00):
too much further, being amarketer for the brand that you
serve or the brands that youserve during the time in which
we are serving, what a wild timeto be in the business. No?
Mari Sokolowski (16:10):
It was a wild time. I was actually an analyst
on the drug channel. So it was awild Crazy. I
Nick Brunker (16:19):
mean, me through a little bit of the emotions too
of it, because everything wasmoving so fast and information
in the health space obviouslyhas a lot of, you know, legal
ties to it and there's, youknow, privacy issues and all
kinds of things that you'reyou're dealing with. It's a
highly regulated industry. Ijust find it fascinating how,
(16:41):
you know, where there are a lotof ties to dot Ts to cross, I
think that's the adage. It'scrazy how fast you guys as
marketers would have to bereally adapting on a dime.
Right?
Mari Sokolowski (16:52):
Yeah. And I think that's, you know, the
financial industry is a lot likethis too, where there's a lot of
regulation around the data youcan and can't use. Really,
really always careful aroundthat. And that's where some of
the data triggers that don'teven touch any of those
(17:14):
restricted areas really comeinto play are super important
for categories like that we'rein with OTC. So time, day, in
stocks, weather, how do you takethese like sort of broader
consumer experience triggers?
Because at the same time, ourproducts are really applicable
(17:34):
to a broad audience. If you lookat the portfolio Halion has, you
probably have one of ourproducts in your medicine
cabinet today. There is thisspecific symptom relief in many
of our categories but at thesame time pretty broadly
applicable across generalpopulation. What was really
(17:56):
interesting in needing to adaptat that time was that it was
very manual. We did not have allthe pipes in this industry and
we like barely had retail dataat the time, you know, and then
with in the way that we do nowthrough DSP platforms.
Nick Brunker (18:11):
So
Mari Sokolowski (18:12):
it was, manual of find the locations, use the
data. We had the data, but likekind of find it. And then how
often, what's the cadence ofworking with agency partners to
get the campaign updated?
Nick Brunker (18:27):
No doubt. And I think on the other end of that
spectrum, with the explosion ofretail data, how much data there
there legitimately is, there's areal risk of just creating more
noise and you're, you know,almost analysis paralysis and
brands needing to cut throughall of that while also
partnering with retailers tosay, how can we genuinely be
(18:49):
helpful and relevant to theshopper journey? How do you do
that? How do brands likeyourselves cut through that
noise so that the data you wereable to mine from your partners
at the retail side and obviouslyall your one piece stuff is
actually making a difference?
Mari Sokolowski (19:04):
The purchase data is such a strong indicator,
right? And finding when I thinkabout like the retail
experience, especially inentertainment, was where Pinot's
palette was kind of sitting. Theticket sales were a great
indicator and you could kind oflook at what types of paintings
people like or what was theevent theme for the night,
(19:28):
whether it was a date night or agirl's night out or even a
corporate team building eventand be able to remarket in those
areas. So I think like as retailmedia and category and lapsed
buyers and all of that becomesmore and more part of the
brand's plan and this likemerging of sales and the
(19:49):
marketing and it's really allthe same funnel. So that's
happening but I have to go backagain to this, that the broad
application of data which iscoming in part out of retail
data, but also very widelyavailable just through like demo
targeting.
We're seeing just incredibleamount of success and coming at
(20:13):
personalization from a broadtarget as well. And I think
that's really exciting. I thinkthe technology and partners that
we work with to enable this,like the technology is not quite
there. Like how do you optimizetowards some of these higher
funnel KPIs, right? There'sbetas, we've done some of this
(20:36):
stuff, but I think it's a hugeopportunity as we think about
DTV, CTV, and really creatingthat full funnel commerce
experience with the consumer.
Nick Brunker (20:47):
And you speak about media. It seems like the
goal is to make it feel morelike a service, not a sell. So
what does it take to make anexperience feel like it's more
I'm understanding you versus I'mtargeting you because I have
this data. That's a tricky one.
Mari Sokolowski (21:04):
Yeah, when you get it right, it's just perfect.
The consumer just reallyunderstands and appreciates.
It's really entertaining whenit's done well, right? And I
think we all know probablyexperienced firsthand that we're
spending, six or seven hours aday on screens between your
(21:26):
phones, computers, TVs. We'vealways got one in our pocket.
We wanna get a screen in ourpocket.
Nick Brunker (21:30):
And
Mari Sokolowski (21:32):
almost 90% of Americans are using that second
device, a phone or tablet whilethey're watching television. So
you've got multiple screenshappening at the same time. And
I think for advertisers tocontinue to be super relevant
and entertain their consumers inthis way that makes media not
feel like a service or feel likea service and not a sell. It's
(21:56):
really important to considerwhat creative you're putting
there. And like the recentexample of course is Angel Soft
at the Super Bowl, like sohighly relevant, super engaging.
Nick Brunker (22:06):
I
Mari Sokolowski (22:06):
think it all took us a minute to figure out
what's going on. But once wedid, the consumer without even
being a marketer knows what agreat consumer insight that is.
And here at Halion, we've got areally great creative asset that
intersection of our Flonasebrand with the Bridgerton
creative. And it was anintegrated production and just
(22:29):
so well done because all thesebeautiful actors come out and
the storyline just really putFlonies as a hero position. Was
just so well done.
Super entertaining and a littlebit unexpected there. And one
more example that I just thinkreally hit home to me as me
being an ice cream lover isthere's a Telente CTV or DTV. I
(22:53):
think it was maybe on Netflix,but here I am late at night,
I've got my ice cream in hand, amid bite. And Telente comes up
with the Bradley Cooper spot andthey're telling me I can order
it on DoorDash. I would havescanned that code so fast if I
didn't already have my ice creamin hand.
(23:15):
I thought, wow, targeting hasgotten really good.
Nick Brunker (23:18):
How did you know?
Mari Sokolowski (23:19):
And like, gold star. Yeah. I totally
appreciated that. That that wasa service. Right?
Like, here, you know, if Ididn't already have it, I woulda
I totally jumped in.
Nick Brunker (23:27):
And testing the willpower too. It's like, yeah,
I'm eating some now, but I mightbe able to get another show in
if I buy this now. Yeah. And andspeaking from somebody who lives
in the Midwest and Cincinnati iswhere I'm located, Flonase is is
that's a five out of five. Youneed that sucker, especially in
the fall.
So that's awesome. Yeah. I thinkthe other interesting thing that
(23:50):
I wanted to get into with youand just get your perspective on
is the marketing organization ofthe future or the marketer of
the future. And we've talkedabout the evolution of creative
and the transformation ofretail. And that brings us to
the people behind the work,which oftentimes are the most
important part, if not the mostimportant part.
(24:10):
So to connect these dots, thecreative, the data, and the
commerce, it seems to require avery specific set of skills and
maybe more importantly, aspecific mindset to thrive in
all this complexity. And I thinkyou mentioned AI earlier and how
we talk a lot about it. Thoseare the two most, you know, used
letters in all of our spacethese days. There is still a
(24:32):
massive need for AI and thetechnology that underpins it,
but the humans behind it arealso gonna have to ultimately
power it. And so what kind oftalent or mindset do you think
will define this next generationof marketers?
Mari Sokolowski (24:47):
I think it's a great question. Like, I also
struggle with that with myself.Skills do I need to be building
in my own? How do I reallyleverage the power of AI? And I
think that brings me to thismindset of just very curious,
very, very curious marketers ofthe future.
Of how do we really harnesseverything that's going on? And
(25:09):
just from my own career having adiverse background, we hear that
a lot. In my case, industries,different experiences across
sales, marketing, media,creative brand, even like the
creator led economy too. And howdo we either build teams that
have really diverse backgroundsor find if you're at a smaller
(25:33):
company and you don't have bigteams find people that obviously
entrepreneurial background orblend of experiences that can
really help shape and inform notjust how we're meeting our
consumers but really have a goodhandle on all the levers that we
can pull because we have thosenow, the pipes are there. And so
I think curiosity, I thinkhaving diverse backgrounds and I
(25:56):
think as the data continues, ourability to really find the
strongest consumer insights iswhat will continue to drive like
the growth of our brands, thegrowth of our companies.
And certainly AgenTeq AI isgonna help with that. All AI is
gonna help with the research andhow we communicate with the
consumers but really beingcurious about our consumers is
(26:21):
gonna be the foundation forthat.
Nick Brunker (26:22):
And how do you cultivate that? Because I think
there's kind of a learnedexercise as you go through your
career. You've you know, talkedabout that. But as somebody
who's also leading teams andyou're talking to on this
podcast other leaders who arelistening and saying, I need
that with my team. I need to getmore out of my team, and I
needed to have them be morecurious and have more empathy.
(26:45):
How would you suggest thatsomebody in that mindset would
say, how do you cultivate that?
Mari Sokolowski (26:50):
I think it's a great question. When we have to
get out of our comfort zones,right? I feel like this is a
kind of tried and true method,but it really applies here too.
For me, this is all aroundexposure. Like I click on
everything.
So just encouraging not just tolook within your company for
those resources but to look andsee what's going on. This is
(27:13):
high transformation right now.There are so many leaders out
there sharing their experiences,sharing questions of what
questions are in their mindsright now. But just getting that
exposure, whether you're throughplaces to click, signing up. I
signed up for a million emails.
I mean, you do not want to seemy inbox, my personal inbox. I
(27:37):
just sign up for everything tosee how are they messaging to me
and where is thatpersonalization opportunity? And
I think like with everythingthat is so AI, it doesn't have
all the answers and it won'tcapture all of the content that
might happen off screen or inperson. And I think it's
important to go to the industryevents, right? We see more of
(28:02):
that than ever before.
And so I think continuing tolive into those collaboration
pieces in the industry will bereally important and to give
your teams access to that. Asthese big events grow, access
could become limited. Makingsure that people on your team
have a seat in thatpresentation.
Nick Brunker (28:24):
I'm curious, you talked about your Talenti
example. Do you have anexperience from your career that
really captures the blend of artand analytics? A moment where
you saw that connection clickand what it taught you in that
moment?
Mari Sokolowski (28:38):
Okay, that's a tricky question.
Nick Brunker (28:40):
Feel like Throwing all the curve Yeah,
Mari Sokolowski (28:44):
well, it's super consistent with the theme
here and I have to just leaninto the fun of that with the
art franchise background and mypassion for data and analytics.
It's a super fun question. And Ithink you have to really lean
into this franchise. I got tolean into the question. So in
terms of the experience andfranchise ownership and really
(29:06):
the opportunity to help definethose like early days of a
startup company.
I just, I fell in love with thisservice here and their tagline
at the time. I'm not sure ifit's still his name or not, but
paint, drink, have fun. And itwas just a master class in a
business ownership trulyeverything from we talked about
(29:28):
launching a customer loyaltyprogram, the 1P data that came
along with that to bookkeepingall of the analytics parts of
that as well. The cash flow andthe balance sheets were driving
constant rigor on theinvestments for media and
marketing or any otherinvestment that our owners had
(29:50):
that I had as a franchise owner,a unit owner as well. And so
when I think about the blend ofart analytics, it doesn't get
more representative of reallythat seven years of my career.
Nick Brunker (30:02):
That's so cool. It seems in some of this as you
were kind of leading to theexperience you had around how
your leaders worked togetherwith you on making it feel like
this is a good brand story. Itwas an experience and people
wanted to engage with it. It itfeels like as much as there
there is a technical challengeto some of this, it's also a
(30:24):
leadership challenge. So how canleaders foster that culture that
that's truly bridging the artand the algorithm in the world
we live to unlock meaningfulwork?
Mari Sokolowski (30:33):
Like life is messy, right? So marketing, you
can't be in the pursuit ofperfection, right? Like there's
no perfect marketing plan. Therenever really has been, but now I
think more true than anything tohave the art part of it, to
connect with humans in a realauthentic way to participate in
(30:56):
their life. That's little likemessy.
So I think brand leaders aregonna have to let go a little
bit and focus on systems, theframeworks, the guardrails
should, those should aim forperfection. But you know, when
you have those perfected andit's repeatable and it's set,
(31:17):
then you almost have to put theconsumer in the driver's seat
and let your brand team start tohave that conversation.
Nick Brunker (31:23):
Before we wrap up, as you alluded to earlier, we
always like to wrap up with somefun facts, some off the cuff
questions and learn a little bitmore about Mari off the clock.
And I'd love to hear some of thethings that keep you busy and
maybe some fun facts peoplemight not otherwise know about
you. Do you have any?
Mari Sokolowski (31:40):
Most people who know me do know that I love to
ski. I know I ski a ton out Westbut two experiences are kind of
fun to share. It's not justabout, you know, they love to
ski but they love to train toski, right? And so I've had the
opportunity to train with twoworld renowned skiers. One was
(32:02):
in Portillo, Chile in thesummer, which is very fun to ski
in September with JohnClendenen, who has just like
this very swishy style.
And he was a two time worldfreestyle champion. Shab, if
you've ever heard of like skiballet, this guy like wrote the
book on it. Very fun.
Nick Brunker (32:19):
How did you get into that? A, I mean, obviously,
everybody, you know, who getsinto skiing usually is like,
yeah, this is awesome and wantsto continue doing it. But how
did you get synced up with John?
Mari Sokolowski (32:29):
So the person behind the syncing up there is
my dad. Like we love to ski as afamily and I'm passing this
along. I got two kids. They'vebeen on skis since they were two
years old and it's something youcan enjoy for a long time and
you can enjoy it with yourfamily. And when I think about
(32:51):
my kids growing up and going offto college and like what will we
be able to do together as afamily when they come home?
What reason would I give them tohang out with me later in life
besides babysitting grandkidspotentially. But skiing and
being outside, I have a deepappreciation for nature.
Nick Brunker (33:11):
Tell me more about some of the other activities you
like to do.
Mari Sokolowski (33:13):
Yeah. So people would guess skiing. Like it's
probably more normal type ofactivity to do. But what people
would not really guess by justyou know, meeting me in a Teams
call or something like thatwould be that I participated in
a thirty day canoe trip inNorthern Canada where we paddled
(33:34):
through the wilderness and wetracked for 440 miles.
Nick Brunker (33:39):
We What? Come on.
Mari Sokolowski (33:40):
Camped out every night. And it was an
incredible experience. Yeah.
Nick Brunker (33:45):
Thirty days like you were legitimately on the go
thirty days and, you know, everynight you'd camp somewhere and
then get back on the water thenext day for thirty days.
Mari Sokolowski (33:56):
Yeah. On the go and off the grid, like,
completely off the grid.
Nick Brunker (33:59):
So nobody was, like, filming this for the
Discovery Channel or something?Because, I mean, this sounds
like like your life could be oneof those TV shows. My goodness.
That's crazy.
Mari Sokolowski (34:08):
I think there was, like, an emergency radio in
case we really got in trouble.But, yeah, we were off the grid.
Nick Brunker (34:14):
So what what was the coolest thing that you saw
if you could, you know, pointpoint it to one thing over the
thirty days that it reallysticks in your mind?
Mari Sokolowski (34:21):
Well, the wildlife, right? And we had been
camping. There's all these likemini islands and Reindeer Lake,
look it up there. It's abeautiful area of Northern
Saskatchewan. And we had beencamping on these small islands
partly to avoid bears and cometo be halfway through the trap
(34:41):
and we're canoeing along hereand a bear starts swimming up
not really next to us.
We were never in danger but wethought wow, our our island
strategy really isn't reallyisn't where it's at because
these bears can swim and we hadkind of forgotten about that.
Nick Brunker (34:56):
That's unbelievable. And is that
something that looking back,would you do it again? Or is
that one of those, I'm glad Idid it, but I'm never gonna do
that again?
Mari Sokolowski (35:07):
I think, there's trucking in my future.
So I don't know when or where orwho with. Part I think the the
challenge right now is the whoto go with. Right? So if there's
any listeners out there that,are planning to track, I'd love
to go to Patagonia.
Nick Brunker (35:22):
Yes. I'll I'll make sure that we we sync up all
your contact info in the shownotes. Can you you get some
tracking tracking friends to gowith you. Mari, this has been
such a great conversation. Iknow we've been looking forward
to this for for many weeks now.
Thank you so much for taking thetime and being willing to share
your expertise with us, andwe'll look forward to doing it
again. Thanks a lot.
Mari Sokolowski (35:42):
Thanks, Nick. This is a lot of fun.
Nick Brunker (35:44):
And thanks to you all for listening to Human
Centered as well. If you'd liketo connect with Marie, we've
included her LinkedIn profile,or maybe you could just go
tracking with her. It's in theshow notes. And you can also
learn more about the innovativework they're doing at Halion by
visiting them on the web athalion.com. We'd also love to
hear your feedback on the show.
Give us a rating and offer upyour thoughts wherever you
listen to your podcasts,including Apple, Spotify,
(36:06):
Stitcher, Amazon, and many more.If you've got a topic idea or
just wanna drop us a line,connect with me on x at Nick
Bruuncker, or just shoot us anemail. The address is
humancentered@VML.com. Thanksagain for listening. We'll see
you next time.
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