April 29, 2024 • 32 mins
In this episode of Human Centered, host Nick Brunker chats with VML's global chief commerce officer, Beth Ann Kaminkow. They explore the ever-evolving world of commerce, emphasizing the importance of maintaining a human-centered approach amidst technological advancements. Plus, they discuss the emergence of 'Quantum Commerce', the influence of Gen Z consumers, and the impact of the impending 'cookie apocalypse'.
Check out some of Beth Ann's additional articles referenced in the episode:
- How Brands can Navigate the Era of Quantum Commerce
- Tomorrow's Commerce is Here Today for Disruptor Brands
- As the Cookie Crumbles - There is New Value in Commerce for Both Marketers & Consumers
- The Consumer is the Product and Other Marketing Truths
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nick (00:02):
Hi, everyone, and welcome to Human Centered. I'm Nick
Brunker, a group director ofexperience strategy at VML, and
your host for the show. Thanksfor giving us a listen. Amidst
all the technological advances,new innovations, and a growing
wealth of data we've witnessedover the last few years, one
thing has remained the same. CXin marketing is still all about
people.
(00:22):
With consumers truly in thedriver's seat in how they engage
and buy brands, commerce hasbecome central to the overall
brand experience and CX journey.Our guest today is here to chat
more with us about why and howleaders need to be on the front
foot when it comes to embracingadvances while not losing focus
on what really matters, thehumans we're serving. I'm so
(00:44):
excited to be joined today byVML's global chief commerce
officer, Bethann Kemikow.Bethann, thanks for spending
time with us today. Welcome.
Beth Ann (00:52):
Thank
you, Nick. It's great to be herewith you.
Nick (00:54):
Of course. It's been way too long since we've had a
chance to sync up. And for thosethat haven't had a chance to
meet with you, share a bit moreabout what you do here at VML.
Beth Ann (01:01):
Well, we've got the new VML. Right, Nick? The merge
VML, which is the largestagency, although we won't just
focus on size. We're gonna focuson the quality of our our
practice capability. And today,that is a deep dive into all
things commerce.
So I'm the global chief commerceofficer. I also get to lead, our
New York office.
Nick (01:21):
And you teed it up nicely with the come together of all
these huge superpowers acrossbrand experience, customer
experience, and commerce. Whatan exciting time to be not only
in our company, but in theindustry at large.
Beth Ann (01:32):
I I completely agree, and I do think that, it I don't
know. Part serendipity, partintentional design that are 3
main practice areas of ofcommerce, customer experience or
consumer experience and brandexperience are uniquely coming
together in an integratedfashion, which is at the heart
of what is powering modernmarketing today.
Nick (01:54):
You've written a lot lately about this topic. A few
of those articles will post upon our podcast page, but you've
said AI might be becoming moreof the head, but humanity
remains the heart for a lot ofour pros in the work that we do
in our space. What should we bethinking about as we try to
stay, quote, about the peoplewith such advancements in tech
machine learning, etcetera,becoming so ubiquitous these
(02:14):
days?
Beth Ann (02:14):
Well, in the space of commerce, we like to use this
expression that the consumer isthe product now. And I I think
that just helps us realign allof our organizational
structures, all of our insights,all of the different teams
within our our companies tothink about the consumer at the
heart of everything that we do,not just the product. We can't
(02:36):
be product centric in the waythat we used to be before. We
have to be constantly respondingto the changing needs and
expectations of our consumers.And so I don't think that's
anywhere truer than it is inthat moment of commerce and
where we're driving conversionwith the consumer.
And so it's in that in thatenvironment of commerce that I
really love to put that consumerback front and center and really
(02:57):
think about that human centereddesign around that person who is
shopping and buying us.
Nick (03:03):
And while we're also combating the rapid evolution of
changing technology tactics likewe've talked about, we're also
up against kind of agenerational shift as Gen z
becomes even more impact tobrands bottom lines. How has
that changed the game for whatyou and leaders like you do
every day?
Beth Ann (03:18):
Well, I think one of the big shifts that we're seeing
is the power of, influence, notjust for influence, but for the
creator aspect of that, becauseI think we have a very creative
generation as we see that geteven skew younger into Gen
Alpha. I think they're, angeneration that wants to kind of
co create with brands as much asthey also wanna see creativity
(03:39):
come from their peer group andfrom others that are influencing
them to discover and to trialnew product. And I don't think
we can downplay how significantthat is in how we think about
buying today. And it it cutsacross categories, vertical
sectors, and, and even the deinfluencing aspect of that too.
(03:59):
You know, when you really thinkabout the influence factor and
the power that these individualshave, and the relationship that
they have.
So even when we know thatsometimes these some of these
folks are sponsored and more andmore we're seeing that or that
they're kind of really pushingyou right into shopping I think
(04:22):
that's one major shift thatwe're seeing. The other that we,
I think that's one major shiftthat we're seeing. The other
that we, find really fascinatingis and we still know this
because the data around physicalpurchasing hasn't declined even
when mobile commerce and anddigital commerce has, you know,
accelerated and continues toclimb. We're still seeing
physical retail be a place ofeither closing deals, of a lot
(04:46):
of, you know, try before you buyor, you know, you know, in there
kind of, like, feeling,experiencing the tangible
aspects of the shoppingexperience, but also still very
much closing the deal too inphysical retail. So, yes, it has
to be reimagined, and it is.
But, it's still a very importantchannel for our Gen z and our
(05:08):
younger generations.
Nick (05:10):
I think you you got something that I'm really
interested in. And it's it'sobviously been something that
we've we've touched on and bethinking been thinking about for
for years. But it's it's thechasm that has existed between
the offline and the online orvice versa. If you start online
and you you end up kind ofshifting and then picking kind
of up where you left off andbeing able to to close that gap
(05:31):
has always been kind of the holygrail, which is, okay. How can
we, you know, collect all ofthis information, especially for
big box retailer brands brandswhere maybe you don't own
necessarily the point ofpurchase or other industries
that are in that same samescenario?
What is going on in terms of theexpectation of let's just stay
on Gen z for a minute of yes. Wewe wanna kind of potentially
(05:52):
prefer to shop in store, buthave they kind of lost that
interest in making sure there'sstill a unified journey and the
jump from online to offline isseamless? Because I imagine it's
not necessarily about themwanting to just prefer to be in
store at point of purchase. It'smaking sure that maybe that the
the store is actually,obviously, the end game, but it
still has to be super connectedand super unified. Are you still
(06:14):
seeing that in the trends?
Beth Ann (06:16):
Absolutely. I mean, I think that, the idea of even
omni commerce or omni retail ismore alive and more real and
more possible today than it'sever been before. And so there's
an, again, an expectation of thebrands that we're dealing with
that they have those thosechannels really activated in a
connected way for me. And theygive you all the optionality
(06:38):
that you could possibly givethat makes sense for your brand.
And I think it's, it's a veryimportant change that's taking
place because it the expectationon the retailer or on the
manufacturer and brand today tounderstand my behaviors across
those channels and recognizethat I'm not necessarily
thinking in a channel way.
I'm thinking about my experiencewith your brand or with your
(07:01):
products. And that is what Ineed to have delivered against.
So I think, and there's there isan expectation because that we
know that the technology isthere to be able to really track
and usable, valuable ways foryour engagement with the
consumer across those channelsthat you are you are tracking
and understanding and making,you know, good use out of the
(07:24):
data that you're able to collecton my behalf. And those are
places too where you're optinginto data collection. I'm part
of a community.
I'm electing to be part of yourbrand experience. And so the,
the expectations around theexchanges is much bigger. And
from all of our research, we wesee that people don't really
distinguish between the channel.They are thinking about a brand.
(07:46):
And so whether because you'vegot your mobile device and it's
operating with you at the, inthe, in this physical store
environment, or because you areexperiencing that brand through
multiple channels and actionsseveral times throughout a week
or a day in your interactionsthat you're merging in your
mind.
It's all it's all that brand.It's all that retailer in your
(08:09):
mind. It's not it's not thedifferentiation of channels
anymore. You're notdistinguishing.
Nick (08:14):
So how is that impacting retail media? Because I think
that's another area where ithistorically, depending on what
what brand you're working with,they're even within the
organization tend to bedifferent leaders, different
opinions, different ways ofattacking retail media when it
comes to, you know, that side ofthe business. Then tying that in
with customer experience wherecommerce kind of sits in in
(08:35):
between those things where youhave to get the attention
through retail media, smarttargeting. You had to get people
to buy in smart ways withpersonalized offers and things,
and then you prove out thepromise by going through
customer experience, you youknow, activities and and, using
all of of those muscles. How iswhat you just talked about,
being impacted or impacting,retail media in our space?
Beth Ann (08:57):
Well, in so many ways, if you've been in this space for
a while, it's not very differentthan it was in terms of like
trade relationships and tradespend between a manufacturer and
a retailer. It's a new way ofretailers obviously being able
to monetize that captiveaudience and the fact that there
is data that is valuable dataaround that audience. It does
(09:17):
push the retailer to make morefrom those assets, and make sure
that their assets are gonna beeffectively working because now
they can be measured, so thatyou have a better sense of how
effective they are, and you canpick and choose, what you think
is right given your brand andgiven the communications and the
experience and engagement thatyou wanna drive. I think it's an
incredible time, quite honestly.You know, we even see this in
(09:40):
terms of and this is the mostimportant proof proof point when
you get into non endemic brands,like how important some of these
marketplaces have become in theminds of consumers that if you
are Royal Caribbean or Virginvoyages, you think there's is
valuable to place ads, you know,in Amazon when, you know, people
are looking for, you know, a newcamera or, you know, beach,
(10:02):
beach wear and resort wear andthings like that.
So I think, the ability to nowreally see the retailer truly as
a media, is super exciting andimportant. But it is also
important to have agencies thatare looking and teams that are
looking holistically at thespend so that the manufacturer
is getting as much economicvalue out of these equations as,
(10:23):
say, the retailer is, since theretailer sort of whole business
model can shift, as they're ableto monetize more in these ways.
I think also we will get into itin a bit, but that's also the
importance of creativity. Ithink if we just look at all of
this as an opportunity to justkind of push out content that
becomes very programmatic anddoesn't think about the real
(10:44):
opportunity of exploiting theseassets that are out there in
these retailer marketplaces, forthe betterment again of the
engagement of the consumer andputting content out there that
consumer is gonna really wannaengage with that makes sense for
your brand. It's it's a completemissed opportunity.
And as we know with all mediaand all channels that perform as
media, there is a there's notjust, you know, what you can
(11:06):
pay, but there's, you know, theowned earned share shareable
aspect of how we wanna thinkabout the content and the
opportunity, that that comesfrom great content.
Nick (11:16):
Totally. And we are blessed to work with some of the
biggest brands in the world. Sowe're we're able to really get
some rich experiences with somegreat partners, people that we
can, you know, do reallyinnovative things with every
day. So we obviously have amyriad of listeners that, are in
different companies and indifferent positions. What can
(11:37):
leaders and pros from largecompanies, like the ones that we
we work with day to day learnfrom some of the disruptor
brands as they evolve theirplaybooks?
Because they're obviouslyplaying with perhaps some of the
the same same sets of muscles,but maybe a different deck of
cards if you play that analogyout.
Beth Ann (11:55):
Well, first of all, I think we all need to be paying
attention to who could bedisrupting, even if it doesn't
exist yet. Like, what what isthe possibility of a new brand
somewhat coming out of nowhere?And oftentimes they are
percolating in the background.They've been around a lot longer
than we think they have, but allof a sudden, something ignites
them in usually a socialplatform like a TikTok or, you
(12:17):
know, a space where they'regetting discovered, and then
we're they're able to retargetand and really, add fuel to that
fire. But I think that, sothere's I don't think there's a
single brand on this planet andmajor enterprise wide, you know,
product that can't be disrupted.
So that's that's one is to kindof like not think that you're
just because you have years ofequity or you're the go to brand
(12:40):
and the leader in the category,that a disruptor brand isn't
going to come out of nowhere, weoftentimes think of these brands
as born in commerce. And theykind of have their own playbook.
You know, they really are smarton it's not about they're not
thinking in terms of building afunnel strategy. They're not,
spending time and money in justupper funnel activity. They're
(13:01):
getting very close to theconsumer quickly to the moment
of conversion and andcaptivating somebody while
they're they have their firstmoment of of sort of interest
and discovery, and how quicklythey can try to turn that into
conversion and then turn thatinto loyalty.
And then just keep that, youknow, virtual cycle going
where's where they do start tocreate the sense of community
(13:22):
around their brand very quickly.And then that sort of is a
network effect where itamplifies from there. So, it it
is very cool to actually watcheven how they'd start to think
about brand extensions. So ifyou think about a pink stuff in
the, house cleaning space, and,you know, the interesting thing
too there is you're you're goinginto spaces where there's a lot
(13:42):
of search. There are a lot ofmemes.
You know, there are a lot of,like, you know, hashtags that
people follow, and there'salready a a huge, group of
influencers in this space. So,you know, it it it is, ripe for
disruption when you know, andand for a very quick kind of
(14:02):
viral ability for these brandsto be infectious and to grow
very quickly. And while they'renever gonna be the size and they
certainly aren't overnight thesize of some of our big players,
they they can take massiveshare, away from those players.
So I always say to bigenterprise brand brands to think
about, you know, a repackagingstrategy sometimes, maybe
(14:22):
playing a completely differentgo to market strategy through a
DTC route or through a puresocial commerce play. It could
be even the brands that youalready have just repackaged
differently with a slightlydifferent narrative and story
around it that just appeals toan audience in a very different
way.
But you have to follow theplaybook. You know, it's not
(14:43):
just, you know, do one thingdifferent. You have to think
about all of the steps thatfollow that in terms of creating
a sense of community, nurturingthe community, speaking a
different language, allowing thekind of influencer and creator
community to have a differentvoice in the mix of, how your
brand gets built and getsexpressed. You have a lot less
control. But on the other sideof that, you can have a lot of
(15:04):
growth.
Nick (15:05):
Yeah. And I think you hit on something that reminded me
about the the importance of justbeing really smart on how you're
listening, both literally andfiguratively, to what your
customers want, who they'regoing to, why are they choosing
one product over another or abrand over another to be able to
to truly understand, like, thewhy behind what's going on.
(15:26):
Obviously, that's somethingwe've talked about a lot on this
show, but one of the the majorcurrencies of being able to, to
to have the knowledge to be ableto listen properly has always
been, or at least in part hasbeen the cookie. And, you know,
you hear a lot about the quotecookie crumbling, and the goal
posts have seemingly moved ahandful of times since, you
know, cookieapolypse or whateveryou wanna call it is about to
(15:48):
hit us. And and here we are.
It sounds like, at least, Googleis planning to phase out those
3rd party cookies by the end of24. And, yeah, again, even
though we've been hearing aboutthis for a while, in an industry
where, as I mentioned,personalization at scale, it's
more important than ever. Itfeels like right now, many might
not exactly be ready for such aseismic shift knowing how
(16:12):
important it is to build therelationship. And without that
one p data, what do you do?Should we what should we be
doing about this?
Beth Ann (16:19):
Well, I do think retail media is part of that
answer and why it becomes morevaluable. There is also the
importance of experimentingyourself with DTC channels or
DTC campaigns, and things thatare allowing you to go out there
and build your community. Itjust like CRM. You know, one of
the things I think about a lotin in this moment is back to
(16:40):
brilliant basics, but all donein new ways. So just thinking
about kind of the basicfundamentals of how you build a
relationship with the consumer,But then how do you do it in a
way that is, feels regeneratedand revitalized and modernized?
And then through so it's, youknow, CRM, building loyalty and
(17:00):
loyalty programs in a differentway. When you look at the Ultas
and the Sephoras and Starbucksand some of our great mass mass
loyalty programs at the heart,you know, even a lot of our
retailers, you know, you you canlearn a lot in terms of what
behavior, do they benefit fromand then becomes endearing to
(17:21):
their relationship and consumersrelationship with the brand. But
where the you know, a lot ofthis is about, again, back to
the human centered design or,you know, consumer centricity.
It's it's back to consumersfeeling like I am this is being
done for me. This is being doneto add value to me and to my
life.
This isn't about what you canget from me. And I think it
(17:42):
really is that rebalancing of,the equation. And so I data is
the same thing. I think whenpeople are we know this are
willing to give their data. Itwas it's really removing that
that inability to know andcontrol your data.
But when you are able to, sayyes to yes, data in this
context, Yes. Because thepersonalization on the other
(18:02):
side is going to be worth it. Ithink we're gonna get more
valuable uses of data and morecontrol over it and actually
ways to we're gonna be able toenhance programs around it
between the consumer and thebrand or the consumer and the
retailer. So I think it's gonnaopen up a ton of possibility.
And again, it's it's creativityas the solve.
You know, I I think if we, it ispushing us to think and act
(18:26):
differently, and to design anddevise programs that are, that
have a different kind of outcomeat the heart. 1 of, capturing
more understanding aboutconsumers and then our ability
to really agilely and quicklyrespond to it.
Nick (18:44):
And you've been touching on, something that I think is
another good segue to, somethingyou've written recently about
and this idea of quantumcommerce, and you hit on one of
the pillars about creativity.Tell us more about what you mean
by quantum commerce.
Beth Ann (18:59):
So Raja, who has been a longtime CMO of Mastercard,
really coined the phrase ofcommerce, of quantum marketing a
number of years ago, not thatlong ago, but, you know, within
the last 5 years or so. And itreally was speaking to the
dimensionalization of marketing.And he was coming from a CMO's
(19:20):
toolbox and empathy for someonein his role in, you know,
massive companies today thathave so many different KPIs and
and so many differentrequirements on them for what
they're delivering for theirorganizations. And we thought
that we're in an evolution nowof commerce when you look at
sort of the phases that we'vegone through in commerce
(19:41):
maturity, that it doesn't juststop at this notion that we
talked about earlier in terms ofunifying the commerce channels
or unifying, connecting commerceacross all of your different
channels, which we sort of, insome ways, was thinking, well,
maybe that is the ultimate, youknow, end goal for all things
that we're trying to design for.But in actuality, there might be
(20:01):
this next territory that we'rereally entering, especially with
AI's entrance into this spaceacross many of these different
user, cases and experiences.
Is there this idea of quantumcommerce happening right now?
And can we start to get clearabout what are the, tools,
knowledge, and skills that needto we need to think about that
(20:23):
is really, a a quantum commercemarketer methods. You know, who
are we looking for in theseroles? What do we need to train
for? What do we need to upscalearound?
And, and then as an agency, whatdo we how do we partner and
build that capability forourselves and for our clients to
be able to deliver on this thisnext wave where commerce is
becoming more central to allthings marketing and becoming
(20:47):
critically important. Obviously,it always has been to the
success of a company, but theway we're thinking about it, the
way we're leveraging is lessfrom just a tactical, how do we
drive conversion andtransaction, but much more into
a strategic upfront way ofthinking about everything from
insights to channel strategies,to go to market strategies, as
we talked about, that really,you know, shift the way an
(21:10):
organization is behaving.
Nick (21:12):
So for those wanting to take the leap into quantum
commerce, what are a few keyprinciples that folks can keep
in mind?
Beth Ann (21:20):
Well, I do think at the heart of it, there is this
idea of embracing creativity.So, again, back to notions of
how sometimes we think aboutlanguage and it kind of defines
or, you know, ends up narrowingour action. Oftentimes, when we
talk about commerce, you thinkof it very transactionally. You
don't think about it necessarilyinformed or coming from coming
(21:46):
from this area, the mechanicsand utility and functionality
that are being built into all ofthese platforms, all these
marketplaces, the tools that arethere, aren't there just to,
again, places, the tools thatare there aren't there just to,
again, programmatically or usealgorithms to get you into
transaction mode. It also allowsfor an enabling of technology,
(22:06):
into creativity.
And it is it's just never beenmore exciting for a creative
person to think about, okay, howdo I utilize all of this
capability, this technologycapability that's there to do
things for the consumer thatwere just never been possible
before. We have a really greatpiece of work around Oreo codes
where you simply scan thebarcode on cartons of milk, any
(22:28):
kind of milk, any kind of milkthat you can imagine that you
could find. I love that. You youget you get, you know, yeah, a
promotion for Oreo cookiesbecause we know that nothing
goes better than Oreos and milk.We know people have been buying
all sorts of kinds of milk andthat category is exploding.
But the cookie category actuallyis a bit a bit in decline. And
so how do we kind of refresh onbringing these 2 favorites
(22:50):
together again? That's enabledby AI. It's enabled by your
mobile phone. But it is isasking someone to do something,
to get something, and it that inthat interaction is, an exchange
of love between the consumer andthe brand.
So it's that creativity, Ithink, being infused into the
space of commerce is very ripefor now and into the future, and
(23:13):
I think it has to be part ofeveryone in in this area's, way
that they're approaching thingsand thinking about it in their
roles. The next one is, having ageneralist view, but when it
comes to commerce. Sorecognizing that, again, there's
a lot of different capabilitythat is gonna be essential and
critical here. You need to builddiverse teams, but you also need
(23:35):
leadership that is gonna be,fluent across technology, media,
creativity, and you know theretailer side of the equation,
the manufacturer and brand sideof the equation. It's gonna take
people who have really grown upin the space and have also kind
of transcended these differentroles.
(23:56):
And then the last, that wereally lean into is recognizing
the, commerce tech stack and themyriad of partners that are
playing here now from theentertainment partners to the
other channel partners totechnology partners, the
Adobe's, the Salesforce, theGoogles of this world. The
(24:16):
partnership is really rich andexciting as well, and that is
where the ability to, be asystems integrator or to really
bring the partnership and, intoa more collaborative space to,
again, deliver for the consumerin ways that have never been
possible before. So those arejust 3 of the things that we're
thinking about in terms of howthis is really opening up in a,
(24:40):
exponential way the thepossibility for commerce.
Nick (24:43):
So for those wanting to take the leap into quantum
commerce, what are a few keyprinciples that that folks can
keep in mind?
Beth Ann (24:50):
Well, I do think at the heart of it, there is this
idea of embracing creativity. Soagain, back to notions of how
sometimes we think aboutlanguage and it's kind of
defines or, you know, ends upnarrowing our action.
Oftentimes, when we talk aboutcommerce, you think of it very
transactionally. You don't thinkabout it coming from coming from
(25:15):
this area, the mechanics andutility and functionality that
are being built into all theseplatforms, all these platforms,
all these marketplaces, thetools that are there aren't
there just to, again,programmatically or use
algorithms to get you intotransaction mode. It also allows
for an enabling of technology,into creativity.
(25:37):
And it is it's just never beenmore exciting for a creative
person to think about, okay, howdo I utilize all of this
capability, this technologycapability that's there to do
things for the consumer thatwere just never been possible
before. We have a really greatpiece of work around Oreo codes
where you simply scan thebarcode on cartons of milk, any
(25:58):
kind of milk, any kind of milkthat you can imagine that you
could find. You get a promotionfor Oreo cookies because we know
that nothing goes better thanOreos and milk. We know people
have been buying all sorts ofkinds of milk, and that category
is exploding. But the cookiecategory actually is a bit a bit
in decline.
And so how do we kind of refreshon bringing these 2 favorites
together again? That's enabledby AI. It's enabled by your
(26:22):
mobile phone, but it is isasking someone to do something
to get something. And it that inthat interaction is, an exchange
of love between the consumer andthe brand. So it's that
creativity, I think, beinginfused into the space of
commerce is very ripe for nowand into the future.
And I think it has to be part ofeveryone in in this area's, way
(26:44):
that they're approaching thingsand thinking about it in their
roles. The next one is, having ageneralist view, but when it
comes to commerce. Sorecognizing that again, there's
a lot of different capabilitythat is gonna be essential and
critical here. You need to builddiverse teams, but you also need
leadership that is gonna be,fluent across technology, media,
(27:09):
creativity, and, you know, theretailer side of the equation,
the manufacturer and brand sideof the equation. It's gonna take
people who have really grown upin the space and have also kind
of transcended these differentroles.
And then the last, that wereally lean into is recognizing
the, commerce tech stack and themyriad of partners that are
(27:30):
playing here now from theentertainment partners to the
other channel partners totechnology partners the Adobe's,
the Salesforce, the Googles ofthis world. The partnership is
really rich and exciting aswell, and that is where the
ability to, be a systemsintegrator or to really bring
(27:51):
the partnership and, into a morecollaborative space to, again,
deliver for the consumer in waysthat have never been possible
before. So those are just 3 ofthe things that we're thinking
about in terms of how this isreally opening up in a,
exponential way, the thepossibility for commerce.
Nick (28:10):
That's amazing. And I know a lot of these topics you you've
written about at length, and wehave a couple of the links
there, set up for us on ourpodcast show notes. So please
definitely, for those thathaven't read those, you should
definitely join us and andlisten into that, and and watch
and read, all the great thingsthat Beth Ann has shared with
us. Before we wrap up, as we doand for those that have listened
(28:31):
to the show before they, theyare used to this trend. But at
the end of the show, we alwayskinda pivot away from our topic
du jour and hear a little bitmore about what keeps you busy,
what are your habits, what doyou like, what things, are you
interested in.
And you shared with me somethingreally interesting about, an
animal that you love. Talk aboutthat and and what what made you
really interested.
Beth Ann (28:52):
Well, it's gonna sound like a complete non sequitur
from our conversation. But when,we talk about things that are,
like, sort of fun that you don'tknow about each other and it is
always fun to kinda go a littlebit deeper and discover things.
I since being a kid, and I don'tknow if it comes from the bar
bar books that maybe some peopleare familiar with, but I was
absolutely for a very long time,obsessed more barber than Dumbo,
(29:15):
but I'll I'll take a I'll takethem all, but I I'm it been like
yes. Very, passionate aboutelephants from a very young age.
And so when I just can't getenough of some people are those,
you know, cute cats or cute dogvideos.
I really love, watchingelephants in their habitat and
sanctuaries that are, you know,being sometimes protected or
(29:38):
they've gotten away from theirtribe. I just love learning
about their, you know, the waythat they have a tribalism, and
they care for each other, howthey learn their their intellect
that they bring, you know, tothe world and just like their
the fact that they are suchgiant massive creatures, but at
the same time, such gentle,loving, animals that are just,
(30:02):
I, I find them so incrediblyfascinating. I find it so sad.
People who have, you know,harmed them over the years, but,
I have a extraordinary elephantcollection, you know, from motif
to all different not live.Although I am Yeah.
Yeah. I had the the adoptedelephant program where I do
sponsor elephants in differentparts of the world. But yeah.
(30:24):
But I but more importantly dothat. Yes.
You can do that. We can dropthat link there as well. But,
Nick (30:30):
yes, we sure can.
Beth Ann (30:32):
It's just like every I I love, like, a ceramic and
glass and, all kinds ofdifferent artists, variations,
and paintings of them. Everytime I look over at one of my
elephant prints or or elephantin any form, I just it just sort
of makes me happy.
Nick (30:46):
It's awesome. Have you ever gotten, like, close enough
up to one to touch 1 or beeninteract with them in person, or
is it more from afar?
Beth Ann (30:53):
I have. No. I I have in Sri Lanka and in Africa. So
I've definitely had a few lovelypersonal moments with them as
well. And you just you reallyrealize when you're in person
with them just how enormous theyare.
And but at the same time, still,like, very, you know, you just
get this gentle I know that theycan be, you know, not gentle all
the time, but you just get youget a feel from them, a vibe
(31:14):
from them that is, you know,pretty pretty chill and
spectacular and calming.
Nick (31:18):
That's awesome. Well, thank you for sharing that, and
thank you for all the thebrilliance that you bring every
day and it's certainly to thisepisode of the show as well. We
really appreciate your time. Weknow you're you're swamped and
busy doing all the great thingsyou do. So, thanks for carving
out a few minutes for us.
Beth Ann (31:31):
Well, Nick, thank you very much for inviting me to
come on and having this goodconversation together. I
appreciate it.
Nick (31:37):
Absolutely our pleasure, Beth Ann. We'll talk again soon.
And thanks to you all forlistening to Human Centered as
well. To learn more about VML'sCX practice and our approach to
the work, you can check us outonline atvml.com. We'd also love
to hear your feedback on theshow.
Give us a rating and offer upyour thoughts wherever you
listen to your podcasts,including Apple, Spotify,
Stitcher, Amazon, and more. Havea topic idea or just wanna drop
(32:00):
us a line? You can connect withme on x at Nick Brunker is my
handle, or just shoot us anemail. The address is
humancentered@vml.com. Thanksagain for listening.
We'll see you next time.
Hi, everyone, and welcome to Human Centered. I'm Nick
Brunker, a group director ofexperience strategy at VML, and
your host for the show. Thanksfor giving us a listen. Amidst
all the technological advances,new innovations, and a growing
wealth of data we've witnessedover the last few years, one
thing has remained the same. CXin marketing is still all about
people.
(00:22):
With consumers truly in thedriver's seat in how they engage
and buy brands, commerce hasbecome central to the overall
brand experience and CX journey.Our guest today is here to chat
more with us about why and howleaders need to be on the front
foot when it comes to embracingadvances while not losing focus
on what really matters, thehumans we're serving. I'm so
(00:44):
excited to be joined today byVML's global chief commerce
officer, Bethann Kemikow.Bethann, thanks for spending
time with us today. Welcome.
Beth Ann (00:52):
Thank
you, Nick. It's great to be herewith you.
Nick (00:54):
Of course. It's been way too long since we've had a
chance to sync up. And for thosethat haven't had a chance to
meet with you, share a bit moreabout what you do here at VML.
Beth Ann (01:01):
Well, we've got the new VML. Right, Nick? The merge
VML, which is the largestagency, although we won't just
focus on size. We're gonna focuson the quality of our our
practice capability. And today,that is a deep dive into all
things commerce.
So I'm the global chief commerceofficer. I also get to lead, our
New York office.
Nick (01:21):
And you teed it up nicely with the come together of all
these huge superpowers acrossbrand experience, customer
experience, and commerce. Whatan exciting time to be not only
in our company, but in theindustry at large.
Beth Ann (01:32):
I I completely agree, and I do think that, it I don't
know. Part serendipity, partintentional design that are 3
main practice areas of ofcommerce, customer experience or
consumer experience and brandexperience are uniquely coming
together in an integratedfashion, which is at the heart
of what is powering modernmarketing today.
Nick (01:54):
You've written a lot lately about this topic. A few
of those articles will post upon our podcast page, but you've
said AI might be becoming moreof the head, but humanity
remains the heart for a lot ofour pros in the work that we do
in our space. What should we bethinking about as we try to
stay, quote, about the peoplewith such advancements in tech
machine learning, etcetera,becoming so ubiquitous these
(02:14):
days?
Beth Ann (02:14):
Well, in the space of commerce, we like to use this
expression that the consumer isthe product now. And I I think
that just helps us realign allof our organizational
structures, all of our insights,all of the different teams
within our our companies tothink about the consumer at the
heart of everything that we do,not just the product. We can't
(02:36):
be product centric in the waythat we used to be before. We
have to be constantly respondingto the changing needs and
expectations of our consumers.And so I don't think that's
anywhere truer than it is inthat moment of commerce and
where we're driving conversionwith the consumer.
And so it's in that in thatenvironment of commerce that I
really love to put that consumerback front and center and really
(02:57):
think about that human centereddesign around that person who is
shopping and buying us.
Nick (03:03):
And while we're also combating the rapid evolution of
changing technology tactics likewe've talked about, we're also
up against kind of agenerational shift as Gen z
becomes even more impact tobrands bottom lines. How has
that changed the game for whatyou and leaders like you do
every day?
Beth Ann (03:18):
Well, I think one of the big shifts that we're seeing
is the power of, influence, notjust for influence, but for the
creator aspect of that, becauseI think we have a very creative
generation as we see that geteven skew younger into Gen
Alpha. I think they're, angeneration that wants to kind of
co create with brands as much asthey also wanna see creativity
(03:39):
come from their peer group andfrom others that are influencing
them to discover and to trialnew product. And I don't think
we can downplay how significantthat is in how we think about
buying today. And it it cutsacross categories, vertical
sectors, and, and even the deinfluencing aspect of that too.
(03:59):
You know, when you really thinkabout the influence factor and
the power that these individualshave, and the relationship that
they have.
So even when we know thatsometimes these some of these
folks are sponsored and more andmore we're seeing that or that
they're kind of really pushingyou right into shopping I think
(04:22):
that's one major shift thatwe're seeing. The other that we,
I think that's one major shiftthat we're seeing. The other
that we, find really fascinatingis and we still know this
because the data around physicalpurchasing hasn't declined even
when mobile commerce and anddigital commerce has, you know,
accelerated and continues toclimb. We're still seeing
physical retail be a place ofeither closing deals, of a lot
(04:46):
of, you know, try before you buyor, you know, you know, in there
kind of, like, feeling,experiencing the tangible
aspects of the shoppingexperience, but also still very
much closing the deal too inphysical retail. So, yes, it has
to be reimagined, and it is.
But, it's still a very importantchannel for our Gen z and our
(05:08):
younger generations.
Nick (05:10):
I think you you got something that I'm really
interested in. And it's it'sobviously been something that
we've we've touched on and bethinking been thinking about for
for years. But it's it's thechasm that has existed between
the offline and the online orvice versa. If you start online
and you you end up kind ofshifting and then picking kind
of up where you left off andbeing able to to close that gap
(05:31):
has always been kind of the holygrail, which is, okay. How can
we, you know, collect all ofthis information, especially for
big box retailer brands brandswhere maybe you don't own
necessarily the point ofpurchase or other industries
that are in that same samescenario?
What is going on in terms of theexpectation of let's just stay
on Gen z for a minute of yes. Wewe wanna kind of potentially
(05:52):
prefer to shop in store, buthave they kind of lost that
interest in making sure there'sstill a unified journey and the
jump from online to offline isseamless? Because I imagine it's
not necessarily about themwanting to just prefer to be in
store at point of purchase. It'smaking sure that maybe that the
the store is actually,obviously, the end game, but it
still has to be super connectedand super unified. Are you still
(06:14):
seeing that in the trends?
Beth Ann (06:16):
Absolutely. I mean, I think that, the idea of even
omni commerce or omni retail ismore alive and more real and
more possible today than it'sever been before. And so there's
an, again, an expectation of thebrands that we're dealing with
that they have those thosechannels really activated in a
connected way for me. And theygive you all the optionality
(06:38):
that you could possibly givethat makes sense for your brand.
And I think it's, it's a veryimportant change that's taking
place because it the expectationon the retailer or on the
manufacturer and brand today tounderstand my behaviors across
those channels and recognizethat I'm not necessarily
thinking in a channel way.
I'm thinking about my experiencewith your brand or with your
(07:01):
products. And that is what Ineed to have delivered against.
So I think, and there's there isan expectation because that we
know that the technology isthere to be able to really track
and usable, valuable ways foryour engagement with the
consumer across those channelsthat you are you are tracking
and understanding and making,you know, good use out of the
(07:24):
data that you're able to collecton my behalf. And those are
places too where you're optinginto data collection. I'm part
of a community.
I'm electing to be part of yourbrand experience. And so the,
the expectations around theexchanges is much bigger. And
from all of our research, we wesee that people don't really
distinguish between the channel.They are thinking about a brand.
(07:46):
And so whether because you'vegot your mobile device and it's
operating with you at the, inthe, in this physical store
environment, or because you areexperiencing that brand through
multiple channels and actionsseveral times throughout a week
or a day in your interactionsthat you're merging in your
mind.
It's all it's all that brand.It's all that retailer in your
(08:09):
mind. It's not it's not thedifferentiation of channels
anymore. You're notdistinguishing.
Nick (08:14):
So how is that impacting retail media? Because I think
that's another area where ithistorically, depending on what
what brand you're working with,they're even within the
organization tend to bedifferent leaders, different
opinions, different ways ofattacking retail media when it
comes to, you know, that side ofthe business. Then tying that in
with customer experience wherecommerce kind of sits in in
(08:35):
between those things where youhave to get the attention
through retail media, smarttargeting. You had to get people
to buy in smart ways withpersonalized offers and things,
and then you prove out thepromise by going through
customer experience, you youknow, activities and and, using
all of of those muscles. How iswhat you just talked about,
being impacted or impacting,retail media in our space?
Beth Ann (08:57):
Well, in so many ways, if you've been in this space for
a while, it's not very differentthan it was in terms of like
trade relationships and tradespend between a manufacturer and
a retailer. It's a new way ofretailers obviously being able
to monetize that captiveaudience and the fact that there
is data that is valuable dataaround that audience. It does
(09:17):
push the retailer to make morefrom those assets, and make sure
that their assets are gonna beeffectively working because now
they can be measured, so thatyou have a better sense of how
effective they are, and you canpick and choose, what you think
is right given your brand andgiven the communications and the
experience and engagement thatyou wanna drive. I think it's an
incredible time, quite honestly.You know, we even see this in
(09:40):
terms of and this is the mostimportant proof proof point when
you get into non endemic brands,like how important some of these
marketplaces have become in theminds of consumers that if you
are Royal Caribbean or Virginvoyages, you think there's is
valuable to place ads, you know,in Amazon when, you know, people
are looking for, you know, a newcamera or, you know, beach,
(10:02):
beach wear and resort wear andthings like that.
So I think, the ability to nowreally see the retailer truly as
a media, is super exciting andimportant. But it is also
important to have agencies thatare looking and teams that are
looking holistically at thespend so that the manufacturer
is getting as much economicvalue out of these equations as,
(10:23):
say, the retailer is, since theretailer sort of whole business
model can shift, as they're ableto monetize more in these ways.
I think also we will get into itin a bit, but that's also the
importance of creativity. Ithink if we just look at all of
this as an opportunity to justkind of push out content that
becomes very programmatic anddoesn't think about the real
(10:44):
opportunity of exploiting theseassets that are out there in
these retailer marketplaces, forthe betterment again of the
engagement of the consumer andputting content out there that
consumer is gonna really wannaengage with that makes sense for
your brand. It's it's a completemissed opportunity.
And as we know with all mediaand all channels that perform as
media, there is a there's notjust, you know, what you can
(11:06):
pay, but there's, you know, theowned earned share shareable
aspect of how we wanna thinkabout the content and the
opportunity, that that comesfrom great content.
Nick (11:16):
Totally. And we are blessed to work with some of the
biggest brands in the world. Sowe're we're able to really get
some rich experiences with somegreat partners, people that we
can, you know, do reallyinnovative things with every
day. So we obviously have amyriad of listeners that, are in
different companies and indifferent positions. What can
(11:37):
leaders and pros from largecompanies, like the ones that we
we work with day to day learnfrom some of the disruptor
brands as they evolve theirplaybooks?
Because they're obviouslyplaying with perhaps some of the
the same same sets of muscles,but maybe a different deck of
cards if you play that analogyout.
Beth Ann (11:55):
Well, first of all, I think we all need to be paying
attention to who could bedisrupting, even if it doesn't
exist yet. Like, what what isthe possibility of a new brand
somewhat coming out of nowhere?And oftentimes they are
percolating in the background.They've been around a lot longer
than we think they have, but allof a sudden, something ignites
them in usually a socialplatform like a TikTok or, you
(12:17):
know, a space where they'regetting discovered, and then
we're they're able to retargetand and really, add fuel to that
fire. But I think that, sothere's I don't think there's a
single brand on this planet andmajor enterprise wide, you know,
product that can't be disrupted.
So that's that's one is to kindof like not think that you're
just because you have years ofequity or you're the go to brand
(12:40):
and the leader in the category,that a disruptor brand isn't
going to come out of nowhere, weoftentimes think of these brands
as born in commerce. And theykind of have their own playbook.
You know, they really are smarton it's not about they're not
thinking in terms of building afunnel strategy. They're not,
spending time and money in justupper funnel activity. They're
(13:01):
getting very close to theconsumer quickly to the moment
of conversion and andcaptivating somebody while
they're they have their firstmoment of of sort of interest
and discovery, and how quicklythey can try to turn that into
conversion and then turn thatinto loyalty.
And then just keep that, youknow, virtual cycle going
where's where they do start tocreate the sense of community
(13:22):
around their brand very quickly.And then that sort of is a
network effect where itamplifies from there. So, it it
is very cool to actually watcheven how they'd start to think
about brand extensions. So ifyou think about a pink stuff in
the, house cleaning space, and,you know, the interesting thing
too there is you're you're goinginto spaces where there's a lot
(13:42):
of search. There are a lot ofmemes.
You know, there are a lot of,like, you know, hashtags that
people follow, and there'salready a a huge, group of
influencers in this space. So,you know, it it it is, ripe for
disruption when you know, andand for a very quick kind of
(14:02):
viral ability for these brandsto be infectious and to grow
very quickly. And while they'renever gonna be the size and they
certainly aren't overnight thesize of some of our big players,
they they can take massiveshare, away from those players.
So I always say to bigenterprise brand brands to think
about, you know, a repackagingstrategy sometimes, maybe
(14:22):
playing a completely differentgo to market strategy through a
DTC route or through a puresocial commerce play. It could
be even the brands that youalready have just repackaged
differently with a slightlydifferent narrative and story
around it that just appeals toan audience in a very different
way.
But you have to follow theplaybook. You know, it's not
(14:43):
just, you know, do one thingdifferent. You have to think
about all of the steps thatfollow that in terms of creating
a sense of community, nurturingthe community, speaking a
different language, allowing thekind of influencer and creator
community to have a differentvoice in the mix of, how your
brand gets built and getsexpressed. You have a lot less
control. But on the other sideof that, you can have a lot of
(15:04):
growth.
Nick (15:05):
Yeah. And I think you hit on something that reminded me
about the the importance of justbeing really smart on how you're
listening, both literally andfiguratively, to what your
customers want, who they'regoing to, why are they choosing
one product over another or abrand over another to be able to
to truly understand, like, thewhy behind what's going on.
(15:26):
Obviously, that's somethingwe've talked about a lot on this
show, but one of the the majorcurrencies of being able to, to
to have the knowledge to be ableto listen properly has always
been, or at least in part hasbeen the cookie. And, you know,
you hear a lot about the quotecookie crumbling, and the goal
posts have seemingly moved ahandful of times since, you
know, cookieapolypse or whateveryou wanna call it is about to
(15:48):
hit us. And and here we are.
It sounds like, at least, Googleis planning to phase out those
3rd party cookies by the end of24. And, yeah, again, even
though we've been hearing aboutthis for a while, in an industry
where, as I mentioned,personalization at scale, it's
more important than ever. Itfeels like right now, many might
not exactly be ready for such aseismic shift knowing how
(16:12):
important it is to build therelationship. And without that
one p data, what do you do?Should we what should we be
doing about this?
Beth Ann (16:19):
Well, I do think retail media is part of that
answer and why it becomes morevaluable. There is also the
importance of experimentingyourself with DTC channels or
DTC campaigns, and things thatare allowing you to go out there
and build your community. Itjust like CRM. You know, one of
the things I think about a lotin in this moment is back to
(16:40):
brilliant basics, but all donein new ways. So just thinking
about kind of the basicfundamentals of how you build a
relationship with the consumer,But then how do you do it in a
way that is, feels regeneratedand revitalized and modernized?
And then through so it's, youknow, CRM, building loyalty and
(17:00):
loyalty programs in a differentway. When you look at the Ultas
and the Sephoras and Starbucksand some of our great mass mass
loyalty programs at the heart,you know, even a lot of our
retailers, you know, you you canlearn a lot in terms of what
behavior, do they benefit fromand then becomes endearing to
(17:21):
their relationship and consumersrelationship with the brand. But
where the you know, a lot ofthis is about, again, back to
the human centered design or,you know, consumer centricity.
It's it's back to consumersfeeling like I am this is being
done for me. This is being doneto add value to me and to my
life.
This isn't about what you canget from me. And I think it
(17:42):
really is that rebalancing of,the equation. And so I data is
the same thing. I think whenpeople are we know this are
willing to give their data. Itwas it's really removing that
that inability to know andcontrol your data.
But when you are able to, sayyes to yes, data in this
context, Yes. Because thepersonalization on the other
(18:02):
side is going to be worth it. Ithink we're gonna get more
valuable uses of data and morecontrol over it and actually
ways to we're gonna be able toenhance programs around it
between the consumer and thebrand or the consumer and the
retailer. So I think it's gonnaopen up a ton of possibility.
And again, it's it's creativityas the solve.
You know, I I think if we, it ispushing us to think and act
(18:26):
differently, and to design anddevise programs that are, that
have a different kind of outcomeat the heart. 1 of, capturing
more understanding aboutconsumers and then our ability
to really agilely and quicklyrespond to it.
Nick (18:44):
And you've been touching on, something that I think is
another good segue to, somethingyou've written recently about
and this idea of quantumcommerce, and you hit on one of
the pillars about creativity.Tell us more about what you mean
by quantum commerce.
Beth Ann (18:59):
So Raja, who has been a longtime CMO of Mastercard,
really coined the phrase ofcommerce, of quantum marketing a
number of years ago, not thatlong ago, but, you know, within
the last 5 years or so. And itreally was speaking to the
dimensionalization of marketing.And he was coming from a CMO's
(19:20):
toolbox and empathy for someonein his role in, you know,
massive companies today thathave so many different KPIs and
and so many differentrequirements on them for what
they're delivering for theirorganizations. And we thought
that we're in an evolution nowof commerce when you look at
sort of the phases that we'vegone through in commerce
(19:41):
maturity, that it doesn't juststop at this notion that we
talked about earlier in terms ofunifying the commerce channels
or unifying, connecting commerceacross all of your different
channels, which we sort of, insome ways, was thinking, well,
maybe that is the ultimate, youknow, end goal for all things
that we're trying to design for.But in actuality, there might be
(20:01):
this next territory that we'rereally entering, especially with
AI's entrance into this spaceacross many of these different
user, cases and experiences.
Is there this idea of quantumcommerce happening right now?
And can we start to get clearabout what are the, tools,
knowledge, and skills that needto we need to think about that
(20:23):
is really, a a quantum commercemarketer methods. You know, who
are we looking for in theseroles? What do we need to train
for? What do we need to upscalearound?
And, and then as an agency, whatdo we how do we partner and
build that capability forourselves and for our clients to
be able to deliver on this thisnext wave where commerce is
becoming more central to allthings marketing and becoming
(20:47):
critically important. Obviously,it always has been to the
success of a company, but theway we're thinking about it, the
way we're leveraging is lessfrom just a tactical, how do we
drive conversion andtransaction, but much more into
a strategic upfront way ofthinking about everything from
insights to channel strategies,to go to market strategies, as
we talked about, that really,you know, shift the way an
(21:10):
organization is behaving.
Nick (21:12):
So for those wanting to take the leap into quantum
commerce, what are a few keyprinciples that folks can keep
in mind?
Beth Ann (21:20):
Well, I do think at the heart of it, there is this
idea of embracing creativity.So, again, back to notions of
how sometimes we think aboutlanguage and it kind of defines
or, you know, ends up narrowingour action. Oftentimes, when we
talk about commerce, you thinkof it very transactionally. You
don't think about it necessarilyinformed or coming from coming
(21:46):
from this area, the mechanicsand utility and functionality
that are being built into all ofthese platforms, all these
marketplaces, the tools that arethere, aren't there just to,
again, places, the tools thatare there aren't there just to,
again, programmatically or usealgorithms to get you into
transaction mode. It also allowsfor an enabling of technology,
(22:06):
into creativity.
And it is it's just never beenmore exciting for a creative
person to think about, okay, howdo I utilize all of this
capability, this technologycapability that's there to do
things for the consumer thatwere just never been possible
before. We have a really greatpiece of work around Oreo codes
where you simply scan thebarcode on cartons of milk, any
(22:28):
kind of milk, any kind of milkthat you can imagine that you
could find. I love that. You youget you get, you know, yeah, a
promotion for Oreo cookiesbecause we know that nothing
goes better than Oreos and milk.We know people have been buying
all sorts of kinds of milk andthat category is exploding.
But the cookie category actuallyis a bit a bit in decline. And
so how do we kind of refresh onbringing these 2 favorites
(22:50):
together again? That's enabledby AI. It's enabled by your
mobile phone. But it is isasking someone to do something,
to get something, and it that inthat interaction is, an exchange
of love between the consumer andthe brand.
So it's that creativity, Ithink, being infused into the
space of commerce is very ripefor now and into the future, and
(23:13):
I think it has to be part ofeveryone in in this area's, way
that they're approaching thingsand thinking about it in their
roles. The next one is, having ageneralist view, but when it
comes to commerce. Sorecognizing that, again, there's
a lot of different capabilitythat is gonna be essential and
critical here. You need to builddiverse teams, but you also need
(23:35):
leadership that is gonna be,fluent across technology, media,
creativity, and you know theretailer side of the equation,
the manufacturer and brand sideof the equation. It's gonna take
people who have really grown upin the space and have also kind
of transcended these differentroles.
(23:56):
And then the last, that wereally lean into is recognizing
the, commerce tech stack and themyriad of partners that are
playing here now from theentertainment partners to the
other channel partners totechnology partners, the
Adobe's, the Salesforce, theGoogles of this world. The
(24:16):
partnership is really rich andexciting as well, and that is
where the ability to, be asystems integrator or to really
bring the partnership and, intoa more collaborative space to,
again, deliver for the consumerin ways that have never been
possible before. So those arejust 3 of the things that we're
thinking about in terms of howthis is really opening up in a,
(24:40):
exponential way the thepossibility for commerce.
Nick (24:43):
So for those wanting to take the leap into quantum
commerce, what are a few keyprinciples that that folks can
keep in mind?
Beth Ann (24:50):
Well, I do think at the heart of it, there is this
idea of embracing creativity. Soagain, back to notions of how
sometimes we think aboutlanguage and it's kind of
defines or, you know, ends upnarrowing our action.
Oftentimes, when we talk aboutcommerce, you think of it very
transactionally. You don't thinkabout it coming from coming from
(25:15):
this area, the mechanics andutility and functionality that
are being built into all theseplatforms, all these platforms,
all these marketplaces, thetools that are there aren't
there just to, again,programmatically or use
algorithms to get you intotransaction mode. It also allows
for an enabling of technology,into creativity.
(25:37):
And it is it's just never beenmore exciting for a creative
person to think about, okay, howdo I utilize all of this
capability, this technologycapability that's there to do
things for the consumer thatwere just never been possible
before. We have a really greatpiece of work around Oreo codes
where you simply scan thebarcode on cartons of milk, any
(25:58):
kind of milk, any kind of milkthat you can imagine that you
could find. You get a promotionfor Oreo cookies because we know
that nothing goes better thanOreos and milk. We know people
have been buying all sorts ofkinds of milk, and that category
is exploding. But the cookiecategory actually is a bit a bit
in decline.
And so how do we kind of refreshon bringing these 2 favorites
together again? That's enabledby AI. It's enabled by your
(26:22):
mobile phone, but it is isasking someone to do something
to get something. And it that inthat interaction is, an exchange
of love between the consumer andthe brand. So it's that
creativity, I think, beinginfused into the space of
commerce is very ripe for nowand into the future.
And I think it has to be part ofeveryone in in this area's, way
(26:44):
that they're approaching thingsand thinking about it in their
roles. The next one is, having ageneralist view, but when it
comes to commerce. Sorecognizing that again, there's
a lot of different capabilitythat is gonna be essential and
critical here. You need to builddiverse teams, but you also need
leadership that is gonna be,fluent across technology, media,
(27:09):
creativity, and, you know, theretailer side of the equation,
the manufacturer and brand sideof the equation. It's gonna take
people who have really grown upin the space and have also kind
of transcended these differentroles.
And then the last, that wereally lean into is recognizing
the, commerce tech stack and themyriad of partners that are
(27:30):
playing here now from theentertainment partners to the
other channel partners totechnology partners the Adobe's,
the Salesforce, the Googles ofthis world. The partnership is
really rich and exciting aswell, and that is where the
ability to, be a systemsintegrator or to really bring
(27:51):
the partnership and, into a morecollaborative space to, again,
deliver for the consumer in waysthat have never been possible
before. So those are just 3 ofthe things that we're thinking
about in terms of how this isreally opening up in a,
exponential way, the thepossibility for commerce.
Nick (28:10):
That's amazing. And I know a lot of these topics you you've
written about at length, and wehave a couple of the links
there, set up for us on ourpodcast show notes. So please
definitely, for those thathaven't read those, you should
definitely join us and andlisten into that, and and watch
and read, all the great thingsthat Beth Ann has shared with
us. Before we wrap up, as we doand for those that have listened
(28:31):
to the show before they, theyare used to this trend. But at
the end of the show, we alwayskinda pivot away from our topic
du jour and hear a little bitmore about what keeps you busy,
what are your habits, what doyou like, what things, are you
interested in.
And you shared with me somethingreally interesting about, an
animal that you love. Talk aboutthat and and what what made you
really interested.
Beth Ann (28:52):
Well, it's gonna sound like a complete non sequitur
from our conversation. But when,we talk about things that are,
like, sort of fun that you don'tknow about each other and it is
always fun to kinda go a littlebit deeper and discover things.
I since being a kid, and I don'tknow if it comes from the bar
bar books that maybe some peopleare familiar with, but I was
absolutely for a very long time,obsessed more barber than Dumbo,
(29:15):
but I'll I'll take a I'll takethem all, but I I'm it been like
yes. Very, passionate aboutelephants from a very young age.
And so when I just can't getenough of some people are those,
you know, cute cats or cute dogvideos.
I really love, watchingelephants in their habitat and
sanctuaries that are, you know,being sometimes protected or
(29:38):
they've gotten away from theirtribe. I just love learning
about their, you know, the waythat they have a tribalism, and
they care for each other, howthey learn their their intellect
that they bring, you know, tothe world and just like their
the fact that they are suchgiant massive creatures, but at
the same time, such gentle,loving, animals that are just,
(30:02):
I, I find them so incrediblyfascinating. I find it so sad.
People who have, you know,harmed them over the years, but,
I have a extraordinary elephantcollection, you know, from motif
to all different not live.Although I am Yeah.
Yeah. I had the the adoptedelephant program where I do
sponsor elephants in differentparts of the world. But yeah.
(30:24):
But I but more importantly dothat. Yes.
You can do that. We can dropthat link there as well. But,
Nick (30:30):
yes, we sure can.
Beth Ann (30:32):
It's just like every I I love, like, a ceramic and
glass and, all kinds ofdifferent artists, variations,
and paintings of them. Everytime I look over at one of my
elephant prints or or elephantin any form, I just it just sort
of makes me happy.
Nick (30:46):
It's awesome. Have you ever gotten, like, close enough
up to one to touch 1 or beeninteract with them in person, or
is it more from afar?
Beth Ann (30:53):
I have. No. I I have in Sri Lanka and in Africa. So
I've definitely had a few lovelypersonal moments with them as
well. And you just you reallyrealize when you're in person
with them just how enormous theyare.
And but at the same time, still,like, very, you know, you just
get this gentle I know that theycan be, you know, not gentle all
the time, but you just get youget a feel from them, a vibe
(31:14):
from them that is, you know,pretty pretty chill and
spectacular and calming.
Nick (31:18):
That's awesome. Well, thank you for sharing that, and
thank you for all the thebrilliance that you bring every
day and it's certainly to thisepisode of the show as well. We
really appreciate your time. Weknow you're you're swamped and
busy doing all the great thingsyou do. So, thanks for carving
out a few minutes for us.
Beth Ann (31:31):
Well, Nick, thank you very much for inviting me to
come on and having this goodconversation together. I
appreciate it.
Nick (31:37):
Absolutely our pleasure, Beth Ann. We'll talk again soon.
And thanks to you all forlistening to Human Centered as
well. To learn more about VML'sCX practice and our approach to
the work, you can check us outonline atvml.com. We'd also love
to hear your feedback on theshow.
Give us a rating and offer upyour thoughts wherever you
listen to your podcasts,including Apple, Spotify,
Stitcher, Amazon, and more. Havea topic idea or just wanna drop
(32:00):
us a line? You can connect withme on x at Nick Brunker is my
handle, or just shoot us anemail. The address is
humancentered@vml.com. Thanksagain for listening.
We'll see you next time.
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