November 25, 2024 • 37 mins
On this episode of Human Centered, host Nick Brunker, Group Director of Experience Strategy at VML, dives into the evolving landscape of holiday shopping just as Black Friday approaches. Joined by Michelle Baumann, VML's Chief Strategy Officer, they explore how brands are navigating what promises to be the most channel-diverse and technologically advanced shopping season yet.
Discover strategies for handling compressed commerce, leveraging social platforms for enhanced customer engagement, and maintaining service quality during high-volume periods. Michelle shares insights from VML's "Power of Peak" report, which highlights the transformation from a single-day shopping event to an extended season that reshapes customer expectations and behaviors.
Tune in to learn about managing AI-powered interactions, creating seamless omnichannel experiences, and optimizing mobile shopping. Whether you're a CX professional or a curious consumer, this episode offers valuable takeaways for delivering exceptional experiences during retail's most demanding season.
🔗 Links & Resources:
- Power of Peak Report
- Connect with Nick on X @nickbrunker
- Email us at humancentered@vml.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nick Brunker (00:02):
Hi, everyone, and welcome to Human Centered. I'm
Nick Brunker, a group directorof experience strategy at VML
and your host for the show.Thanks for giving us a listen.
As we're recording this podcast,we're just a few days away from
Black Friday, but the truth ispeak shopping season has been in
full swing for weeks now. WithThanksgiving falling late this
year and Cyber Monday landing onDecember 2nd, brands and CX
(00:23):
teams are already navigatingwhat our research shows will be
the most channel diverse andtechnologically advanced
shopping season we've ever seen.
Whether you're interested in howbrands are handling the rise of
compressed commerce, curiousabout the impact of social
commerce on customer engagement,or looking for strategies to
maintain service quality duringthese high volume periods, this
(00:44):
episode has something for everyCX professional to take away.
We'll explore how some of our CXteams are adapting to this new
reality from managing the surgein AI powered interactions to
creating seamless experiencesacross both physical and digital
touch points. So let's dive inand explore how brands can
deliver those exceptionalexperiences during retail's most
(01:05):
demanding season. I am soexcited and thankful to be
joined today by VML's chiefstrategy officer, Michelle
Baumann, who helped lead thecharge on VML's power of peak
report, which I'll link in theshow notes. And it examines how
the traditional one day shoppingevent has evolved into an
extended season that's reshapingcustomer expectations and
behaviors.
Michelle, thanks for being withus. Welcome.
Michelle Baumann (01:26):
Thank you so much, Nick. I'm excited to be
here and talk with you today.
Nick Brunker (01:29):
Yes. For those that haven't had a chance to
meet you, give us a bit aboutyour background and what you do
at VML.
Michelle Baumann (01:33):
Absolutely. I have been with VML for the past
7 years, and I lead our strategydata and insights practice,
particularly in the commercespace. I have a background in
commerce consulting and data andanalytics in the past and get
the opportunity to work across awide variety of our clients,
particularly those in the CPGand retail spaces that are
(01:57):
looking to sell their goodsduring the season.
Nick Brunker (02:00):
A super busy season and and the report,
there's so so much stuff inthere, that anybody can take
away depending on what specificrole you are or where you are in
a CX or marketing or commerceorganization. What what I think
we hit off the top is that thereport you guys found shows
that, more than a quarter, about27% of holiday shopping starts
in October. How is this extendedseason versus kind of waiting
(02:22):
for a Black Friday or even whenCyber Monday became a thing?
How's it changed CX teams andyour team's approach to building
customer journeys?
Michelle Baumann (02:30):
Yeah. So, you know, in the past, it was really
about hitting that hot momentand really being able to make
sure that you were reachingthose deals and deep discounting
in a particular period of timeto capture consumers' attention.
Now with this much longerjourney, there's a lot more
consistent passive shoppinggoing on. So it means that you
want to be grabbing attentionearly. Those early offers, those
(02:52):
price drops coming in moreimportant, but it's also around
having that sustained attentionover the board.
This also means as you thinkabout CX teams, how do you stay
with them without giving theminformation overload? So that's
going to be around choosing theright channels to show up, the
right moments to show up so thatyou're consistently top of mind
without too much. I think itmeans that personalization is
(03:14):
going to be more important thanever, making sure that with a
longer season, there's a muchbigger variety in journeys and
times that people are coming inand out. So brands and teams are
going to need to flexaccordingly. I think especially
as we think about the OctoberNovember times early on,
obviously we're nearing the endof November, but there's gonna
(03:35):
be a lot of discovery.
Right? So it's how do we startwith social media? How do we
start with Google search? Thosetypes of things early on that we
know they're hitting on inOctober November. And as we get
closer to December knowing thatit's going to be less discovery
and more about purchase.
So really planning those touchpoints accordingly.
Nick Brunker (03:53):
And when we talk about customers, you were
hitting on it a little bit withwith channel hopping. It's
happening more than ever. Thereport called out that 61% are
wanting that seamlesspersonalized communication as
they go across channels. Whatare some of the key CX
challenges that you're seeing inthat?
Michelle Baumann (04:08):
Yeah. And I think just just to to double
down on that stat, I mean, I Iknow that over half of consumers
say that they won't shop a sitethat doesn't meet their
expectations. So you essentiallyhave one chance to get it right.
Mhmm. Obviously, price stillremains the most important
consideration more than ever tocustomers.
So comparing price is going tobe important. But as we think
(04:29):
beyond that, what are some ofthe things we can do from a
customer experience, you know,perspective? Once we get beyond
price, it's all aboutreliability and convenience. So
how do I make sure I find what Iwant easily? And then once I do
know it's in stock and know Iwill receive it on time.
Any gap there becomes an issue.So, you once you have a consumer
actually selecting an item, ifit's suddenly not available in
(04:51):
their size, that's a problem inthe experience, right? Means
that inventory is going to bereally important, because if we
don't have that available, thatwas a break in the experience.
Now if you go to order an itemand it's not going to show up in
time for that holiday party orin time for that, you know, gift
exchange, that's also going tobe a problem. So again, making
sure that we have the productsbeing able to be shipped
(05:14):
quickly.
I think there's also certainelements making sure that our
teams are giving consistentbrand voice and messaging across
the board so that every singletouch point that these consumers
are seeing is consistent. Thatrequires a lot of complexity and
there's some costs involved,right? So how do we completely
manage this omnichannel strategyto make sure that we're
(05:35):
investing in the righttechnology and optimizations so
that we're able to make thisreally seamless without being
extremely costly to ourpartners? And again, I talked
about the right channels. It'smanaging that channel
proliferation, so making surethat we're really choiceful
around where we're starting toinvest that time to lead to that
convenience and not spendingmoney in places that don't
(05:56):
matter.
I think the one other reallyimportant piece as there's more
channels than ever for thesecustomers is how do we make sure
that we're bringing our datatogether on the back end. You
start to get a lot more datasilos across the board when
you're gathering, you know, dataacross, you know, CRM systems,
marketing automation systems,social media. So how do you tie
(06:17):
all of that together into oneview while still being mindful
of maintaining privacy andsecurity and data issues? So a
lot of that's going to start tobecome, really important as we
bring this to life.
Nick Brunker (06:30):
And I think you hit on, something that leads me
to to the next thought that Ihad reading the report around,
you know, card abandonment andjust maintaining what was, I
think, a much shorter window totry to, both attract and and
convert these customers on aBlack Friday or even just the
week leading up. If you'retalking about 3, 4, maybe 5
weeks of this, quote, unquote,season of shopping, the, you
(06:52):
know, holiday shopping season,power of peak, Talk about how
brands can maintain engagementrates over this period because
the strategy, I would imagine,changes when you're trying to,
you know, maintain thatengagement over 5 weeks instead
of 1 or or even less than aweek.
Michelle Baumann (07:08):
Again, this is going to be all around that real
time response, thatpersonalization, you know,
understanding how we can givequick responses, personalized
interactions no matter whatchannel they feed on to, and
having systems where relevantinformation is living across
them all in real time. You know,as you start to think about
(07:28):
actually getting to purchase andhaving people abandoning their
cards, right, we've got like 20%card abandonment rate. It's also
going to be how do we makecheckout really easy throughout.
If you know you have a 5 plusweek season to purchase, there's
less of a sense of urgency topurchase at any given time. So
how do we reduce friction in thecheckout process?
(07:49):
How do we really simplify it?Make sure that there's fewer
steps. How are we reallytransparent with costs knowing
that price is such a factor? Allof a sudden, if we're getting to
check out and we're not able to,you know, pay all the extra
fees, You know, shipping issomething people just expect to
be free. Right.
Nick Brunker (08:05):
All
Michelle Baumann (08:05):
of a sudden it's not. That can become a
problem. How do we start toengage and kind of, retarget
people who we know areinterested in our products to
bring them back? And I thinkit's all about doing this at the
right frequency and how do we asCX teams support our partners to
make sure that they're doingthis this retargeting, that
they're reaching back out, butat the right frequency so that
(08:29):
they're not over speaking totheir consumers as well.
Nick Brunker (08:32):
As we shift to kind of our our next section of
the report, there is a reallygood meaty couple of sections on
AI, which I mean, what reportthese days would be complete
without talking AI a little bit.The compressed commerce kinda
you're speaking to and,obviously, the the importance of
mobile as people are secondscreening and, you know, kinda
doing a bunch of things at once,and that trend is only gonna
(08:53):
continue. The report shows Iguess we could start with the AI
front. The chatbot traffic,understandably, is is doubling
as more brands come online withmore, let's just say, robust or
at least somewhat maturing,capabilities in that space. How
is that changing customerservice strategies as you've
talked to brands that are inthis space?
Michelle Baumann (09:13):
Absolutely. I mean, this is really helping to
enable just hyper personalizedrecommendations on products and
services. I talked a little bitabout data. What using AI does
is it lets us grab data at scaleand we can understand search
history, past purchases andother behaviors in a very quick
manner. When you're talking to ahuman, there are a lot of
(09:33):
questions that they need tostart to ask you.
They need to go back and look atyour history. We're saving a lot
of that time at once. So itmeans that we can, we can move a
lot faster to getting thatpersonalized support,
proactively. Obviously, it alsomeans that there's suddenly 247
availability. There's no longer9 to 5 hours that we have to
work within, which is going tobe helpful to our consumers that
(09:55):
may be working during thosehours, may be unavailable.
It means improved responsetimes. I mean, it's like a
little bit gone are the dayswhere you're placed on hold for
multiple hours to start to getto your solution. And again,
that constant feedback loopwhere we're able to gather all
of the data about our customerinteractions in a very seamless
way. You don't have to worryabout your call will be recorded
(10:17):
so we can go analyze it. All ofa sudden in the chat and text,
we have the informationavailable.
So should certainly start tomake us able to, really get that
right personalized solution andreduce some of the friction for
consumers. We obviously don'twanna completely eliminate the
human. There are always going tobe those instances where you
need that special attention. ButI think the nice thing now is it
(10:40):
enables us to have the humansthat are working for these
companies, be really trained upto deal with some of the more
complex issues and not to spendtheir time on the simpler
issues. They can really focus onthe elements that require more,
you know, human interaction,human emotion, human connection.
Nick Brunker (10:58):
Yeah. And and one of the more surprising stats in
here, in addition to the, youknow, wanting better, faster,
smarter inspiration to purchasejourneys, which I know is also
played out in that that AIsection of the report, which,
again, we will link in our shownotes so people can read the
full thing. This one stat kindof made me sit back in my chair
(11:19):
for a minute, and it says 40% ofcustomers find mobile shopping
difficult, which in the year ofour Lord 2024, I'm kinda
surprised by that. I guess, a,did that surprise you as well?
And, b, what should we thinkabout as pros to prioritize for
a better mobile experience?
Michelle Baumann (11:40):
Yeah. I mean, I think I think part of what
what makes it surprising and notso surprising, I think
historically when we thoughtabout mobile shopping, there was
a lot of going to Amazon dotcomor, you know, the Amazon app.
And I think now people areshopping mobile y via social.
They're shopping, you know, on,retailer websites. They're
shopping on brand websites.
(12:00):
There's so many different placesand so there's less of a
consistency of experience, whichis kind of leading to that
issue.
Nick Brunker (12:07):
Sure.
Michelle Baumann (12:08):
I think there's there's there's front
end and back end issues that weneed to help our partners think
about. You know, from a backend, how do we make sure that
there's fast loading times? Onmobile, there continues to be
this expectation, especiallywith 5 g of instant
gratification.
Nick Brunker (12:23):
Yeah.
Michelle Baumann (12:23):
Our images optimized immediately. How are
we getting, you know, quickloading times? Slow becomes an
issue. How do we streamline sothat we can minimize the number
of times we have to clickbetween different products? So a
lot of those back end things, Ithink, we need to make sure that
we're helping our our ourpartners to to optimize.
And then again, on the the frontend, this is nothing new. It's
(12:45):
all of that user experiencedesign. So how do we have a
mobile first experience whichmost brands have done a good job
on? Obviously, it's nothappening everywhere. Needs to
be intuitive.
Things that are touch friendly,obviously going really well and
just staying very clear, veryconcise with all of the
messaging and all theinformation.
Nick Brunker (13:06):
As we think about the strategies between web and
CRM, which I know a lot ofbrands wrestle with on a day to
day basis, you've attacked thisas well. I'd love to hear your
perspective on the importance ofhaving your teams, the teams
that are both, you know, let'sjust say just from a VML
perspective inside our house oreven if you're a marketing pro,
(13:29):
on a client side in a brand,having those digital touch
points super connected from aplanning perspective, because
I've seen it firsthand whereyou've got a CRM team kind of
doing their thing and a web teamkind of doing their thing, but
the secret sauce, which is notso secret is in the magic, I
guess, is when you can consider,both of these, major, majorly
(13:52):
important digital touch pointscoming together. Have you have
you seen that be a challenge, inyour experience of late?
Michelle Baumann (13:59):
Absolutely. And I think it's I'll say a a
simple solution in theory, butnot always the easiest to bring
to life. And it all comes fromcentralized planning and making
sure that while we have deepteams with expertise across all
of the different touch pointsand ways of marketing that we're
starting at the center. So wehave one set of audiences that
(14:19):
we're all working from, that wehave one job to be done that
we're all working from and thateverything starts at the center
and works out accordingly sothat you feel that consistency.
It's the same way we talk aboutbuilding brands and making sure
that we're growing their equityas well as getting them to sell.
Right? Bringing commerce andbrand together at the center
through that commerceexperience. And I really think
(14:41):
the more teams are comingtogether from the start, the
more we're going to see thatseamless integration.
Nick Brunker (14:46):
No question. And I think the other thing that's
really interesting about, in thesection about AI specifically is
that natural tension and balancebetween finding the the
automated and human touch pointsduring this peak season. Because
to your point, everybody wantsthe instant gratification, yet I
think they also crave accuracy.And I think being able to get
(15:07):
the right answer, not just ananswer, especially if it ends
up, you know, dovetailing into alack of availability of a
product or they can't get theanswer to their question. How
have you seen brands balancingkind of when to lean more into
the automated versus still thatthat human touch?
Michelle Baumann (15:24):
Yeah. And I think I think part of it is what
the brands are doing and part ofit is what we're also doing as
agency partners. So making surethat that even from the planning
perspective, we're not landing,leaning too much on the AI, but
we're actually taking ourstrategic human hats on all of
the recommendations at thestart. I think in actual
practice where we're puttingthis, out in the world, it's
(15:47):
seeing what kind of cues you'regetting. We can very quickly
leverage the data that's comingin from the consumer.
And if it's functional focused,if it's product focused, that's
more likely something that wecan be solving through AI. But
we can look for cues aroundthings that might be more
emotional. Right? If someone'stalking about they need a
product at a certain timebecause of the date. Now all of
(16:08):
a sudden we're getting into anemotional element where that
that consumer, feels thatsomething is not happening in
their life if they don't get theproduct.
I think the more we can trainour AI to look for human
emotional cues and then makesure that we're bringing in
those human agents, that canreally start to strike that
balance.
Nick Brunker (16:28):
Yeah. It's a hand off of sorts and and be able to
architect the the properhandoffs for when something
needs to meet a human versus, ifthe data set's right, what an
automated system can do. And Ithink there's a similar tension
as you kinda shift into, thesections of the report that talk
about physical retail, socialcommerce, the importance of
content strategy in the mix. Notsurprisingly, we're still in
(16:50):
this world where, especiallycoming out of COVID, you know, 2
thirds are are saying theyprefer retailers that have both
physical and online. And thereis shockingly still, at least
based on what I see in thereport and what I feel
personally, this kind of glidepath that brands are still on to
create truly omnichannelexperiences.
How have you seen the ones thatare doing it right do it right?
Michelle Baumann (17:12):
I think a big piece, you're right, there's
total connection, especially asyou think about the browsing
versus buying. Even for thosepeople going in store, we know
over 70% of them are actuallylooking online and making those
decisions and walking in thestore. And I think the important
thing there is if you found theproduct online at a brand's
website and you walk in thestore and that product isn't
(17:34):
available, now we just broke theexperience. So again, there's
integrated inventory management.How do we make sure that we have
the same products availableonline and in store?
When you think about offers, youknow, I can even say from a
personal standpoint, I've hadbrands that I've interacted with
where they have coupons thatwork online and don't work in
store. That's not a properexperience that the customer is
(17:56):
looking for because they want toknow that they can take that
coupon, they can use it ineither place. Making sure that
the brand experience across theboard is similar. So again, I
talked about coupons, butpricing structures as well. You
know, you need to have thatconsistent pricing structure
online and offline.
You need to have that consistentcustomer service where if I buy
something online, I expect I canreturn it to store and making
(18:20):
sure that these things arereally connected. There's also
things that we can be doing instore in terms of adding
technology to the forefront,right? Having mobile devices
available, being able to accessreal time inventory from mobile
without having to go check-inthe back of the store physically
and save time. And having justoverall the the we talked about
(18:42):
the human, that human customerservice integration where it's
not just the data and theinventory is integrated, but I'm
getting the same kind ofcustomer support wherever I go.
If I'm engaged in a loyaltyprogram and I receive and redeem
points, it's the same everywhereI go.
So I feel like I have that oneconsistent experience.
Nick Brunker (19:02):
And underpinning all of it, in addition to the
technology, is the right levelof content to both, to your
point, kind of inspire people,get people excited, but also
give them the functional needsthat he would likely have to
have in order to pull thetrigger, especially when I think
they're weighing this time ofyear and, again, myself
included, weighing the the thecost benefits, the does this
(19:25):
feature work for me? Does thatfeature work? Especially when
you get into the more, types ofproducts that are commodities
based or perhaps not at higherof a consideration product. And
when we talk about how CX teamsand content strategy teams work
together, clearly, they theyaren't separate. They are
(19:45):
equally tied together to buildan experience out, and the
report emphasizes that contentis key.
As you've coached your teams andyou've coached your clients that
you've worked with, how are CXteams approaching content
strategy across channels in thisthis commerce heavy port portion
of the year?
Michelle Baumann (20:02):
Yeah. I think a lot of it comes down to making
sure that we're completely tyingthrough our audiences, the human
journeys that they are takingacross this time period, the
touch points that we should bereaching them at those moments,
and the type of messaging,creative and written, right,
that content that they want eachstep of the journey. And having
an overall experience map thatwe're planning out together so
(20:26):
we have one playbook to workfrom is going to be really key.
Right? So we ultimately knowit's this audience at this
moment.
We're using this touch pointwith this type of of content.
And again, we can start to usethings like AI to optimize the
content. We can actually buildsynthetic audiences and we can
test how the content respondswith them and and do a lot of
(20:48):
test and learn, but really kindof putting that all at the
center together to make surethat we're delivering
consistently across the board.
Nick Brunker (20:55):
Let's take it a a click deeper on that, synthetic
audiences piece because I knowthat there are people listening
to the show that are, in aparticular, skill set or they're
working to kinda do some of thethings you're talking about as
the technology has advanced in away where we can start to build
those synthetic audiences outand start pressure testing some
of our strategies weeks, perhapsmonths ahead of time, what are
(21:17):
some good first steps, to to dothat and do it well?
Michelle Baumann (21:20):
So I think my first watch out is to just, go
into an OpenAI and start to askquestions and think you're going
to get to the right solution. Wealways believe in starting real
data first, And so we'llleverage different real data
sources, whether it's thingsproprietary to us like a
choreograph, whether it'ssecondary sources like an MRI
(21:43):
Simmons, but really making surethat we're building out those
data based, you know, personasand audiences. And then it's
going in and bringing those intodifferent open tools that you
may have, available tounderstand, and enrich those
audiences. So what might you sayabout them? What might you
predict, etcetera?
So it's all based on some ofthat real data and being able to
(22:07):
predict forward. And then usingyour human review, you know,
doing focus groups offline ifyou have time as well and and
putting that gut check becauseyou'll find that if you're just,
leveraging AI in and of itself,you're not going to get the
right answers. So it continuesto be a dance back and forth,
but it at least gives us somequick ways to brainstorm and
(22:29):
move forward.
Nick Brunker (22:31):
Yeah. And it does feel like it's maybe not to your
point, a 1 or 2 click, solution,to get to the answer, but it
gives you, in a lot of timesmyself, speaking personal
experience, the engagement withthose LLMs or other technologies
gives you a good starting pointto kinda gut check what you're
thinking. And and, you know,obviously, leveraging if you can
(22:52):
put really good data in, and andtrain it to go off of that data,
Very, educated starting pointsthat can easily be riffed on
and, you know, take the humanhuman element and put it back in
there, at the beginning. So Ithink that's fast that's
fascinating and and spot on. Theother thing that I saw in the
report that was not terriblysurprising, but also, you know,
(23:13):
at the same time, I thinkperhaps underutilized, you can
kinda confirm or deny thatinfluencer marketing.
They had a stat in the reportthat says it's converting 10 x
more than traditional socialmedia. How is that changing
customer engagement and theplans that we put together?
Michelle Baumann (23:30):
I think it is obviously, we know social
commerce is exploding. It's abig it's a big deal, especially
for younger shoppers. I think weare now moving to the point
where social and as we thinkabout things like TikTok have
been, let's call it like anexperimental test in every
marketer's plans. Hey, let'shold x percent of our budget and
(23:51):
test and see how this performs.I think we are now past the
testing point, and we've proventhat this is just a key part of
every media plan.
And so how do we make sure thatwe're starting to work with
brands to hold a certain amountof their budget consistently for
things like Amazon Storefronts,like TikTok shop, you know, even
(24:12):
looking at, at YouTube doingsome of their video content and
how do we make sure that there'sa real true part of the budget
invested in doing that type ofsocial commerce. I think also
knowing our brands know that ifthey're targeting younger Gen Z
Gen Alpha audiences that this isthe right move. But I think
reminding brands as well that asthey're looking to these,
(24:33):
millennial Gen X audiences, wecontinue to see this kind of
behavior where social commerceis really taking off. So it's
not a, hey. This is for ayounger audience.
This is a small bit. This reallyneeds to be a consistent part of
our our team's strategies now.
Nick Brunker (24:48):
So off the beaten path from from that topic, but I
think tangential to it, is theimpact of some of the emerging
marketplace solutions. And Iknow that, you know, at least
every time that I log into X orif I'm, you know, scrolling
through other social media apps,like, I've got Timoo ads
everywhere. And much like TikTokkind of came out of I don't
(25:10):
wanna say nowhere, but itcertainly had a meteoric rise
once people started to latch on.For a long time in digital
shopping, well, Cyber Mondaystarted to get popular and
obviously bolted on to analready busy shopping season.
You're seeing more TMUs andAliExpress kind of, you know,
emerge at least in the UnitedStates.
(25:30):
How do you see that kind ofchanging the game or approaches
for marketers or even just howwe, as you and I as consumers,
shop? Because before, it was,alright. You wanna shop online?
It's primarily Amazon. Then thebig box retailers got better at
it, and now you've inserted acompletely new variable into
play.
How how has that impacted whatwe do as a as a group?
Michelle Baumann (25:52):
I think it's making us, think proactively a
lot more quickly. I think we canno longer react. I think, you
know, I talked about abouttesting and learning. It's
making sure that we start totest really quickly and hold out
the dollars to put marketingspend against these different
channels to see how theyperform. And it's making sure
(26:13):
that we're really choiceful whenwe use them that we don't just
hop on a trend because it's thelatest thing.
Nick Brunker (26:18):
Right.
Michelle Baumann (26:18):
But that we're very clear of who's the audience
we're trying to reach, what'sthe product, is this a good fit?
Because we know these audiencesare looking for that authentic
connection and they need to feellike this is a place that they
should be going to, to purchasethis product.
Nick Brunker (26:35):
So knowing that as we talked about off of the top,
that it's no longer just a oneday or even weekend sort of
shopping season, you know, forBlack Friday. It's as the power
of peak, report would suggest,it's becoming that that extended
season. How are brands measuringCX success? Because, obviously,
(26:55):
there's the, you know, it's theeconomy stupid sort of it's
revenue, it's profit. How doesCX measurement factor into this
extended period of time wherepeople are shopping in holiday?
Michelle Baumann (27:07):
Yeah. I mean, to your point, of course, bottom
line, CX success is did I getsomeone to buy my stuff? Right?
So I think first and foremost,obviously, am I getting my fair
share of the dollars? I thinkit's also being able to look at
media attributed sales againstall of the different tactics and
touch points that becomes moreand more important as you're
(27:28):
leveraging a number of differenttouch points along that journey,
making sure that you understandit's not that you were either
successful or unsuccessful, butwhich were the elements that
really drove that most successand getting to those those
pieces to plan for future.
I think also starting to look atwhat kind of retention we got
across the board. So not did wewin 1 single consumer at one
(27:51):
touchpoint throughout this 5week period, But were we able to
get consistency across thoseconsumers? And, you know, we
talked earlier about bringingall that data together to
identify what a single consumerlooks like, but that retention
piece is going to be huge. Did Idrive retention so I can start
to think about what my lifetimevalue might be with that
consumer beyond this holidaytime period?
Nick Brunker (28:13):
And I think the other thing that comes to mind
for me is the the the c x of thebuying process, which has to be
done. You mentioned the the freeshipping. What are the
expectations there? The ultimatedelivery experience, like the
onboarding, the, unboxingexperience. So, obviously, for a
lot of folks in this time ofyear, it's can it get here
(28:33):
before the holiday that I needto give it?
So So that's, like, primarynumber 1. But then there's also,
like, the the after effects ofbeing able to feel like you got
a good deal, but then also arereally engaged with the product.
So is it you know, in CX land,you know, proper, we've talked
about how, you know, brandexperience and commerce helps
ultimately, you know, make apromise and make it really easy
(28:55):
to buy. And then, you know, theCX side of the house, maybe this
is a little bit myopic, but thethought is, like, you prove the
promise by providing the good CXafter the ownership. So I think
as much as, like, this seasonright now is about the the,
making promise, doing creativeads, getting people through the
flow really easily.
It's it's also just thebeginning potentially for some
(29:17):
of the these brands of ofbuilding lifetime value and long
term customers. So, really not aquestion in there as much as a
really interesting way where,yeah, we're talking and thinking
a lot about, okay, the buyingprocess. How can we make it
easier? But then brands alsohave to make sure that they're
not forgetting that, okay, oncethey've bought it, once they've
engaged with it, once the gifthas been given, what are those
(29:38):
experiences that we can, youknow, continue to pay off after
the fact? And I think it's justfascinating.
Michelle Baumann (29:42):
Yeah. I I agree, and I think there's a
couple of things for brands tothink about there. You have your
loyalty programs and rewards,and I think, historically,
there's been a lot of pointbased systems. That's a very,
you know, traditional way ofthinking about it. But starting
to have tier programs, thinkabout what hotels and what, you
know, airlines do.
Starting to create that forother brands where you feel like
(30:04):
you've reached a certain status,giving out exclusive perks. So
it's it's a next a nextgeneration version of point
based. I'm really gamifying it.We know that gamification is
huge. How do we start to reallycreate that?
I also think there's a lot ofcommunity building. Right? So
how do you make somebody anadvocate for your brand? We talk
(30:24):
a lot about earned media and howdo you get somebody who
purchased and used your productto love it and to create their
own content on social and createthat buzz and start to build
communities where people aretalking about your brand,
customers are coming togetherand really strengthening that
connection so you canultimately, build the brand.
Nick Brunker (30:45):
It's, again, just feeding the beast. So you're
spending less time and andultimately money on trying to
promote your products the nexttime around. You're you're spot
on, and, we could talk for hourson this stuff. But knowing we
try to keep these around a 30minute episode, I wanted to do
one last thing with you. And forthose that have listened to the
show before know, we kinda liketo end our, episodes with some
(31:05):
fun facts about our guests orsome, you know, more off the
beaten path topics.
And since we are obviouslyrecording this podcast before
Black Friday right up until,the, the holiday season really
beginning, a lot of folks aregonna start to shut down already
for for the holiday. But thoselistening, this is when we
recorded it. So, two things Iwanted to talk to you about.
(31:26):
First thing, is there any BlackFriday to you as a shopper that
stands out, to you? Did you goout early for a product?
Are you somebody who always gotup early? Did you go buy a
product early because it was onsale? Tell me about the most
memorable Black Friday shoppingexperiences you've you've had in
your life.
Michelle Baumann (31:44):
Sure. Oh, that's a fun one. So I I was not
usually a huge Black Fridayshopper, but I do have a memory
of 1 Black Friday. And my momand I went out shopping. I think
I was in high school, and wejoked we couldn't believe we
were doing it.
We walked into a departmentstore, and we got a deal on some
new leather black boots. And, wewere actually amazed that it
(32:09):
wasn't nearly as crowded as weexpected it to be. I think a lot
of people were headed to theelectronic stores back then.
This this ages me. Right?
Nick Brunker (32:17):
I'm with you.
Michelle Baumann (32:17):
But we we we had a great time going and
buying some some new fashionproducts that I would have just
in time for the holiday season.So that experiential element of
it, right, that we're talkingabout still being important to
people, was very memorable tome. Well,
Nick Brunker (32:32):
what's really funny about that, and not to go
down that rabbit hole too far, II think it is interesting to see
who, has that historical like,that's just what we did. Like,
we would get up, and I now havefamily and friends that would
that's just part of theirThanksgiving. Just like people
that are in Detroit, they watchthe Lions or or in Dallas, they
watch the Cowboys or reallyanybody across the country. It's
like kind of football and food.It's a tradition.
(32:54):
Like, getting up and going tothe stores has been a tradition.
So it's always funny to seethose as digital has come
online. Like, how many peopleactually still just do it
because it's, well, that's whatwe always do. I have not been
that guy. I typically did not goout.
I, a, I hate getting up early.B, I don't really like a lot of
crowds. Although I don't mindthem, I really don't wanna stand
(33:15):
in line. And c, I hate beingcold. So standing outside in the
cold is another no no for b, butI digress.
The second thing I wanted to dobefore we wrap up is a little
rapid fire thanks giving,preference testing. So Okay.
Depending on who you are anddepending on how you've grown
up, there are some what seem tobe very visceral reactions to
(33:38):
certain thanksgiving traditionsin in relation to food. So first
and foremost, pumpkin pie, applepie, or other pie?
Michelle Baumann (33:46):
Well, I actually made an early
Thanksgiving, and I made anapple pie, and I bought a
pumpkin pie. So that's a reallyhard one for me, but I will say
apple. Let's say apple.
Nick Brunker (33:55):
Okay. So that that basically segues away from my
next question was with thepumpkin pie, although you said
you bought 1, are you a whippedcream or cool whip? Oh, whipped
cream always. And are you likeme where you have to overload
the whipped cream or are you aless whipped cream sort of
person?
Michelle Baumann (34:14):
Just a little dot on top.
Nick Brunker (34:16):
Alright. Next question. Food touching or food
separate?
Michelle Baumann (34:21):
I am fine with the food touching. I like having
my corn in my mashed potatoesYes. My cranberry sauce on top
of my turkey.
Nick Brunker (34:29):
That and speaking of that, I'm totally aligned
with you there. This is where Ifeel like people, like, throw
down. Fights actually can beginover this conversation. The
canned cranberry or the freshcranberry relish?
Michelle Baumann (34:44):
Growing up, we always had canned cranberry, and
I actually just said the otherday, I can't believe that we
didn't make it. I personallymake it from scratch, and I did
this year because makingcranberry sauce from scratch
takes all of 10 minutes. So I'mI'm a make it from scratch.
Nick Brunker (35:00):
Alright. Alright. And I'm I'm not actually opposed
to either one, But when I hadthis conversation with somebody
yesterday and we didn't reallyget into an argument, but the
the person was, like, viscerallyagainst the canned cranberry.
They thought it was the mostdisgusting thing ever. So I'm
like, ah, it's, you know, tastesgood to me.
I don't mind it. It's easier tocut. Just cut it up like Jell O.
(35:20):
It's fine.
Michelle Baumann (35:21):
Yes.
Nick Brunker (35:22):
The other one that I think has come up there are 2
other ones, and then we can wrapup. Green bean casserole. Is it
a yay or anay?
Michelle Baumann (35:30):
No. I don't do it. There's too many good foods.
Why bother with vegetables thatare unhealthy anyway?
Nick Brunker (35:36):
I am with you. I could not agree more, and I'm
also, like, doubling down on thefact that I just don't like
mushrooms. And so I know I'veheard other recipes. People are
gonna yell at me or send meemails, but, like, I just can't.
I just can't do that.
Michelle Baumann (35:46):
I don't like mushrooms either. I'm with you.
It sounds like we would have alovely Thanksgiving dinner
together.
Nick Brunker (35:51):
Yeah. I'm totally with you. I I think we should do
it. I think we should do it.Maybe, you know, have a
Thanksgiving feast after thefact when we get back from
vacation.
I I love it. Last, probably mostchallenging question that I've
asked in relation toThanksgiving. Favorite dish?
Michelle Baumann (36:05):
Mashed potatoes. I love mashed
potatoes.
Nick Brunker (36:08):
That was a quick answer. Most people, like, go
between, like, a few of the, youknow, the tried and true's, but
you had you did you had thatbowl in the chamber. Mashed
potatoes all the way.
Michelle Baumann (36:18):
Mashed potatoes always. Yes.
Nick Brunker (36:20):
From scratch?
Michelle Baumann (36:22):
Yes. They have to be. Mashed potatoes have to
be from scratch.
Nick Brunker (36:25):
Oh, I love it. I love it. Michelle, I know this
has been a busy season for youas you can understand, for
everybody, but for youespecially in the commerce
space. Yeah. It means a lot thatyou were able to jump on a a
call with us and chat.
Thanks again for all the greatinsights, and have a have a
great Thanksgiving.
Michelle Baumann (36:41):
Absolutely. Thank you. Have a great
Thanksgiving too, Nick.
Nick Brunker (36:43):
And thanks to you all for listening to Human
Centered as well. To learn moreabout VML CX practice and our
approach to the work, you cancheck us out online atvml.com.
We'd also love to hear yourfeedback on the show. Give us a
rating and offer up yourthoughts wherever you listen to
your podcasts, including Apple,Spotify, Stitcher, Amazon, and
more. Have a topic idea or justwanna drop us a line or maybe a
(37:04):
Thanksgiving recipe?
You can connect with me onx@nickbrunker, or you could
shoot us an email. The addressis human centered at vml.com.
Thanks again for listening.We'll see you next time.
Hi, everyone, and welcome to Human Centered. I'm
Nick Brunker, a group directorof experience strategy at VML
and your host for the show.Thanks for giving us a listen.
As we're recording this podcast,we're just a few days away from
Black Friday, but the truth ispeak shopping season has been in
full swing for weeks now. WithThanksgiving falling late this
year and Cyber Monday landing onDecember 2nd, brands and CX
(00:23):
teams are already navigatingwhat our research shows will be
the most channel diverse andtechnologically advanced
shopping season we've ever seen.
Whether you're interested in howbrands are handling the rise of
compressed commerce, curiousabout the impact of social
commerce on customer engagement,or looking for strategies to
maintain service quality duringthese high volume periods, this
(00:44):
episode has something for everyCX professional to take away.
We'll explore how some of our CXteams are adapting to this new
reality from managing the surgein AI powered interactions to
creating seamless experiencesacross both physical and digital
touch points. So let's dive inand explore how brands can
deliver those exceptionalexperiences during retail's most
(01:05):
demanding season. I am soexcited and thankful to be
joined today by VML's chiefstrategy officer, Michelle
Baumann, who helped lead thecharge on VML's power of peak
report, which I'll link in theshow notes. And it examines how
the traditional one day shoppingevent has evolved into an
extended season that's reshapingcustomer expectations and
behaviors.
Michelle, thanks for being withus. Welcome.
Michelle Baumann (01:26):
Thank you so much, Nick. I'm excited to be
here and talk with you today.
Nick Brunker (01:29):
Yes. For those that haven't had a chance to
meet you, give us a bit aboutyour background and what you do
at VML.
Michelle Baumann (01:33):
Absolutely. I have been with VML for the past
7 years, and I lead our strategydata and insights practice,
particularly in the commercespace. I have a background in
commerce consulting and data andanalytics in the past and get
the opportunity to work across awide variety of our clients,
particularly those in the CPGand retail spaces that are
(01:57):
looking to sell their goodsduring the season.
Nick Brunker (02:00):
A super busy season and and the report,
there's so so much stuff inthere, that anybody can take
away depending on what specificrole you are or where you are in
a CX or marketing or commerceorganization. What what I think
we hit off the top is that thereport you guys found shows
that, more than a quarter, about27% of holiday shopping starts
in October. How is this extendedseason versus kind of waiting
(02:22):
for a Black Friday or even whenCyber Monday became a thing?
How's it changed CX teams andyour team's approach to building
customer journeys?
Michelle Baumann (02:30):
Yeah. So, you know, in the past, it was really
about hitting that hot momentand really being able to make
sure that you were reachingthose deals and deep discounting
in a particular period of timeto capture consumers' attention.
Now with this much longerjourney, there's a lot more
consistent passive shoppinggoing on. So it means that you
want to be grabbing attentionearly. Those early offers, those
(02:52):
price drops coming in moreimportant, but it's also around
having that sustained attentionover the board.
This also means as you thinkabout CX teams, how do you stay
with them without giving theminformation overload? So that's
going to be around choosing theright channels to show up, the
right moments to show up so thatyou're consistently top of mind
without too much. I think itmeans that personalization is
(03:14):
going to be more important thanever, making sure that with a
longer season, there's a muchbigger variety in journeys and
times that people are coming inand out. So brands and teams are
going to need to flexaccordingly. I think especially
as we think about the OctoberNovember times early on,
obviously we're nearing the endof November, but there's gonna
(03:35):
be a lot of discovery.
Right? So it's how do we startwith social media? How do we
start with Google search? Thosetypes of things early on that we
know they're hitting on inOctober November. And as we get
closer to December knowing thatit's going to be less discovery
and more about purchase.
So really planning those touchpoints accordingly.
Nick Brunker (03:53):
And when we talk about customers, you were
hitting on it a little bit withwith channel hopping. It's
happening more than ever. Thereport called out that 61% are
wanting that seamlesspersonalized communication as
they go across channels. Whatare some of the key CX
challenges that you're seeing inthat?
Michelle Baumann (04:08):
Yeah. And I think just just to to double
down on that stat, I mean, I Iknow that over half of consumers
say that they won't shop a sitethat doesn't meet their
expectations. So you essentiallyhave one chance to get it right.
Mhmm. Obviously, price stillremains the most important
consideration more than ever tocustomers.
So comparing price is going tobe important. But as we think
(04:29):
beyond that, what are some ofthe things we can do from a
customer experience, you know,perspective? Once we get beyond
price, it's all aboutreliability and convenience. So
how do I make sure I find what Iwant easily? And then once I do
know it's in stock and know Iwill receive it on time.
Any gap there becomes an issue.So, you once you have a consumer
actually selecting an item, ifit's suddenly not available in
(04:51):
their size, that's a problem inthe experience, right? Means
that inventory is going to bereally important, because if we
don't have that available, thatwas a break in the experience.
Now if you go to order an itemand it's not going to show up in
time for that holiday party orin time for that, you know, gift
exchange, that's also going tobe a problem. So again, making
sure that we have the productsbeing able to be shipped
(05:14):
quickly.
I think there's also certainelements making sure that our
teams are giving consistentbrand voice and messaging across
the board so that every singletouch point that these consumers
are seeing is consistent. Thatrequires a lot of complexity and
there's some costs involved,right? So how do we completely
manage this omnichannel strategyto make sure that we're
(05:35):
investing in the righttechnology and optimizations so
that we're able to make thisreally seamless without being
extremely costly to ourpartners? And again, I talked
about the right channels. It'smanaging that channel
proliferation, so making surethat we're really choiceful
around where we're starting toinvest that time to lead to that
convenience and not spendingmoney in places that don't
(05:56):
matter.
I think the one other reallyimportant piece as there's more
channels than ever for thesecustomers is how do we make sure
that we're bringing our datatogether on the back end. You
start to get a lot more datasilos across the board when
you're gathering, you know, dataacross, you know, CRM systems,
marketing automation systems,social media. So how do you tie
(06:17):
all of that together into oneview while still being mindful
of maintaining privacy andsecurity and data issues? So a
lot of that's going to start tobecome, really important as we
bring this to life.
Nick Brunker (06:30):
And I think you hit on, something that leads me
to to the next thought that Ihad reading the report around,
you know, card abandonment andjust maintaining what was, I
think, a much shorter window totry to, both attract and and
convert these customers on aBlack Friday or even just the
week leading up. If you'retalking about 3, 4, maybe 5
weeks of this, quote, unquote,season of shopping, the, you
(06:52):
know, holiday shopping season,power of peak, Talk about how
brands can maintain engagementrates over this period because
the strategy, I would imagine,changes when you're trying to,
you know, maintain thatengagement over 5 weeks instead
of 1 or or even less than aweek.
Michelle Baumann (07:08):
Again, this is going to be all around that real
time response, thatpersonalization, you know,
understanding how we can givequick responses, personalized
interactions no matter whatchannel they feed on to, and
having systems where relevantinformation is living across
them all in real time. You know,as you start to think about
(07:28):
actually getting to purchase andhaving people abandoning their
cards, right, we've got like 20%card abandonment rate. It's also
going to be how do we makecheckout really easy throughout.
If you know you have a 5 plusweek season to purchase, there's
less of a sense of urgency topurchase at any given time. So
how do we reduce friction in thecheckout process?
(07:49):
How do we really simplify it?Make sure that there's fewer
steps. How are we reallytransparent with costs knowing
that price is such a factor? Allof a sudden, if we're getting to
check out and we're not able to,you know, pay all the extra
fees, You know, shipping issomething people just expect to
be free. Right.
Nick Brunker (08:05):
All
Michelle Baumann (08:05):
of a sudden it's not. That can become a
problem. How do we start toengage and kind of, retarget
people who we know areinterested in our products to
bring them back? And I thinkit's all about doing this at the
right frequency and how do we asCX teams support our partners to
make sure that they're doingthis this retargeting, that
they're reaching back out, butat the right frequency so that
(08:29):
they're not over speaking totheir consumers as well.
Nick Brunker (08:32):
As we shift to kind of our our next section of
the report, there is a reallygood meaty couple of sections on
AI, which I mean, what reportthese days would be complete
without talking AI a little bit.The compressed commerce kinda
you're speaking to and,obviously, the the importance of
mobile as people are secondscreening and, you know, kinda
doing a bunch of things at once,and that trend is only gonna
(08:53):
continue. The report shows Iguess we could start with the AI
front. The chatbot traffic,understandably, is is doubling
as more brands come online withmore, let's just say, robust or
at least somewhat maturing,capabilities in that space. How
is that changing customerservice strategies as you've
talked to brands that are inthis space?
Michelle Baumann (09:13):
Absolutely. I mean, this is really helping to
enable just hyper personalizedrecommendations on products and
services. I talked a little bitabout data. What using AI does
is it lets us grab data at scaleand we can understand search
history, past purchases andother behaviors in a very quick
manner. When you're talking to ahuman, there are a lot of
(09:33):
questions that they need tostart to ask you.
They need to go back and look atyour history. We're saving a lot
of that time at once. So itmeans that we can, we can move a
lot faster to getting thatpersonalized support,
proactively. Obviously, it alsomeans that there's suddenly 247
availability. There's no longer9 to 5 hours that we have to
work within, which is going tobe helpful to our consumers that
(09:55):
may be working during thosehours, may be unavailable.
It means improved responsetimes. I mean, it's like a
little bit gone are the dayswhere you're placed on hold for
multiple hours to start to getto your solution. And again,
that constant feedback loopwhere we're able to gather all
of the data about our customerinteractions in a very seamless
way. You don't have to worryabout your call will be recorded
(10:17):
so we can go analyze it. All ofa sudden in the chat and text,
we have the informationavailable.
So should certainly start tomake us able to, really get that
right personalized solution andreduce some of the friction for
consumers. We obviously don'twanna completely eliminate the
human. There are always going tobe those instances where you
need that special attention. ButI think the nice thing now is it
(10:40):
enables us to have the humansthat are working for these
companies, be really trained upto deal with some of the more
complex issues and not to spendtheir time on the simpler
issues. They can really focus onthe elements that require more,
you know, human interaction,human emotion, human connection.
Nick Brunker (10:58):
Yeah. And and one of the more surprising stats in
here, in addition to the, youknow, wanting better, faster,
smarter inspiration to purchasejourneys, which I know is also
played out in that that AIsection of the report, which,
again, we will link in our shownotes so people can read the
full thing. This one stat kindof made me sit back in my chair
(11:19):
for a minute, and it says 40% ofcustomers find mobile shopping
difficult, which in the year ofour Lord 2024, I'm kinda
surprised by that. I guess, a,did that surprise you as well?
And, b, what should we thinkabout as pros to prioritize for
a better mobile experience?
Michelle Baumann (11:40):
Yeah. I mean, I think I think part of what
what makes it surprising and notso surprising, I think
historically when we thoughtabout mobile shopping, there was
a lot of going to Amazon dotcomor, you know, the Amazon app.
And I think now people areshopping mobile y via social.
They're shopping, you know, on,retailer websites. They're
shopping on brand websites.
(12:00):
There's so many different placesand so there's less of a
consistency of experience, whichis kind of leading to that
issue.
Nick Brunker (12:07):
Sure.
Michelle Baumann (12:08):
I think there's there's there's front
end and back end issues that weneed to help our partners think
about. You know, from a backend, how do we make sure that
there's fast loading times? Onmobile, there continues to be
this expectation, especiallywith 5 g of instant
gratification.
Nick Brunker (12:23):
Yeah.
Michelle Baumann (12:23):
Our images optimized immediately. How are
we getting, you know, quickloading times? Slow becomes an
issue. How do we streamline sothat we can minimize the number
of times we have to clickbetween different products? So a
lot of those back end things, Ithink, we need to make sure that
we're helping our our ourpartners to to optimize.
And then again, on the the frontend, this is nothing new. It's
(12:45):
all of that user experiencedesign. So how do we have a
mobile first experience whichmost brands have done a good job
on? Obviously, it's nothappening everywhere. Needs to
be intuitive.
Things that are touch friendly,obviously going really well and
just staying very clear, veryconcise with all of the
messaging and all theinformation.
Nick Brunker (13:06):
As we think about the strategies between web and
CRM, which I know a lot ofbrands wrestle with on a day to
day basis, you've attacked thisas well. I'd love to hear your
perspective on the importance ofhaving your teams, the teams
that are both, you know, let'sjust say just from a VML
perspective inside our house oreven if you're a marketing pro,
(13:29):
on a client side in a brand,having those digital touch
points super connected from aplanning perspective, because
I've seen it firsthand whereyou've got a CRM team kind of
doing their thing and a web teamkind of doing their thing, but
the secret sauce, which is notso secret is in the magic, I
guess, is when you can consider,both of these, major, majorly
(13:52):
important digital touch pointscoming together. Have you have
you seen that be a challenge, inyour experience of late?
Michelle Baumann (13:59):
Absolutely. And I think it's I'll say a a
simple solution in theory, butnot always the easiest to bring
to life. And it all comes fromcentralized planning and making
sure that while we have deepteams with expertise across all
of the different touch pointsand ways of marketing that we're
starting at the center. So wehave one set of audiences that
(14:19):
we're all working from, that wehave one job to be done that
we're all working from and thateverything starts at the center
and works out accordingly sothat you feel that consistency.
It's the same way we talk aboutbuilding brands and making sure
that we're growing their equityas well as getting them to sell.
Right? Bringing commerce andbrand together at the center
through that commerceexperience. And I really think
(14:41):
the more teams are comingtogether from the start, the
more we're going to see thatseamless integration.
Nick Brunker (14:46):
No question. And I think the other thing that's
really interesting about, in thesection about AI specifically is
that natural tension and balancebetween finding the the
automated and human touch pointsduring this peak season. Because
to your point, everybody wantsthe instant gratification, yet I
think they also crave accuracy.And I think being able to get
(15:07):
the right answer, not just ananswer, especially if it ends
up, you know, dovetailing into alack of availability of a
product or they can't get theanswer to their question. How
have you seen brands balancingkind of when to lean more into
the automated versus still thatthat human touch?
Michelle Baumann (15:24):
Yeah. And I think I think part of it is what
the brands are doing and part ofit is what we're also doing as
agency partners. So making surethat that even from the planning
perspective, we're not landing,leaning too much on the AI, but
we're actually taking ourstrategic human hats on all of
the recommendations at thestart. I think in actual
practice where we're puttingthis, out in the world, it's
(15:47):
seeing what kind of cues you'regetting. We can very quickly
leverage the data that's comingin from the consumer.
And if it's functional focused,if it's product focused, that's
more likely something that wecan be solving through AI. But
we can look for cues aroundthings that might be more
emotional. Right? If someone'stalking about they need a
product at a certain timebecause of the date. Now all of
(16:08):
a sudden we're getting into anemotional element where that
that consumer, feels thatsomething is not happening in
their life if they don't get theproduct.
I think the more we can trainour AI to look for human
emotional cues and then makesure that we're bringing in
those human agents, that canreally start to strike that
balance.
Nick Brunker (16:28):
Yeah. It's a hand off of sorts and and be able to
architect the the properhandoffs for when something
needs to meet a human versus, ifthe data set's right, what an
automated system can do. And Ithink there's a similar tension
as you kinda shift into, thesections of the report that talk
about physical retail, socialcommerce, the importance of
content strategy in the mix. Notsurprisingly, we're still in
(16:50):
this world where, especiallycoming out of COVID, you know, 2
thirds are are saying theyprefer retailers that have both
physical and online. And thereis shockingly still, at least
based on what I see in thereport and what I feel
personally, this kind of glidepath that brands are still on to
create truly omnichannelexperiences.
How have you seen the ones thatare doing it right do it right?
Michelle Baumann (17:12):
I think a big piece, you're right, there's
total connection, especially asyou think about the browsing
versus buying. Even for thosepeople going in store, we know
over 70% of them are actuallylooking online and making those
decisions and walking in thestore. And I think the important
thing there is if you found theproduct online at a brand's
website and you walk in thestore and that product isn't
(17:34):
available, now we just broke theexperience. So again, there's
integrated inventory management.How do we make sure that we have
the same products availableonline and in store?
When you think about offers, youknow, I can even say from a
personal standpoint, I've hadbrands that I've interacted with
where they have coupons thatwork online and don't work in
store. That's not a properexperience that the customer is
(17:56):
looking for because they want toknow that they can take that
coupon, they can use it ineither place. Making sure that
the brand experience across theboard is similar. So again, I
talked about coupons, butpricing structures as well. You
know, you need to have thatconsistent pricing structure
online and offline.
You need to have that consistentcustomer service where if I buy
something online, I expect I canreturn it to store and making
(18:20):
sure that these things arereally connected. There's also
things that we can be doing instore in terms of adding
technology to the forefront,right? Having mobile devices
available, being able to accessreal time inventory from mobile
without having to go check-inthe back of the store physically
and save time. And having justoverall the the we talked about
(18:42):
the human, that human customerservice integration where it's
not just the data and theinventory is integrated, but I'm
getting the same kind ofcustomer support wherever I go.
If I'm engaged in a loyaltyprogram and I receive and redeem
points, it's the same everywhereI go.
So I feel like I have that oneconsistent experience.
Nick Brunker (19:02):
And underpinning all of it, in addition to the
technology, is the right levelof content to both, to your
point, kind of inspire people,get people excited, but also
give them the functional needsthat he would likely have to
have in order to pull thetrigger, especially when I think
they're weighing this time ofyear and, again, myself
included, weighing the the thecost benefits, the does this
(19:25):
feature work for me? Does thatfeature work? Especially when
you get into the more, types ofproducts that are commodities
based or perhaps not at higherof a consideration product. And
when we talk about how CX teamsand content strategy teams work
together, clearly, they theyaren't separate. They are
(19:45):
equally tied together to buildan experience out, and the
report emphasizes that contentis key.
As you've coached your teams andyou've coached your clients that
you've worked with, how are CXteams approaching content
strategy across channels in thisthis commerce heavy port portion
of the year?
Michelle Baumann (20:02):
Yeah. I think a lot of it comes down to making
sure that we're completely tyingthrough our audiences, the human
journeys that they are takingacross this time period, the
touch points that we should bereaching them at those moments,
and the type of messaging,creative and written, right,
that content that they want eachstep of the journey. And having
an overall experience map thatwe're planning out together so
(20:26):
we have one playbook to workfrom is going to be really key.
Right? So we ultimately knowit's this audience at this
moment.
We're using this touch pointwith this type of of content.
And again, we can start to usethings like AI to optimize the
content. We can actually buildsynthetic audiences and we can
test how the content respondswith them and and do a lot of
(20:48):
test and learn, but really kindof putting that all at the
center together to make surethat we're delivering
consistently across the board.
Nick Brunker (20:55):
Let's take it a a click deeper on that, synthetic
audiences piece because I knowthat there are people listening
to the show that are, in aparticular, skill set or they're
working to kinda do some of thethings you're talking about as
the technology has advanced in away where we can start to build
those synthetic audiences outand start pressure testing some
of our strategies weeks, perhapsmonths ahead of time, what are
(21:17):
some good first steps, to to dothat and do it well?
Michelle Baumann (21:20):
So I think my first watch out is to just, go
into an OpenAI and start to askquestions and think you're going
to get to the right solution. Wealways believe in starting real
data first, And so we'llleverage different real data
sources, whether it's thingsproprietary to us like a
choreograph, whether it'ssecondary sources like an MRI
(21:43):
Simmons, but really making surethat we're building out those
data based, you know, personasand audiences. And then it's
going in and bringing those intodifferent open tools that you
may have, available tounderstand, and enrich those
audiences. So what might you sayabout them? What might you
predict, etcetera?
So it's all based on some ofthat real data and being able to
(22:07):
predict forward. And then usingyour human review, you know,
doing focus groups offline ifyou have time as well and and
putting that gut check becauseyou'll find that if you're just,
leveraging AI in and of itself,you're not going to get the
right answers. So it continuesto be a dance back and forth,
but it at least gives us somequick ways to brainstorm and
(22:29):
move forward.
Nick Brunker (22:31):
Yeah. And it does feel like it's maybe not to your
point, a 1 or 2 click, solution,to get to the answer, but it
gives you, in a lot of timesmyself, speaking personal
experience, the engagement withthose LLMs or other technologies
gives you a good starting pointto kinda gut check what you're
thinking. And and, you know,obviously, leveraging if you can
(22:52):
put really good data in, and andtrain it to go off of that data,
Very, educated starting pointsthat can easily be riffed on
and, you know, take the humanhuman element and put it back in
there, at the beginning. So Ithink that's fast that's
fascinating and and spot on. Theother thing that I saw in the
report that was not terriblysurprising, but also, you know,
(23:13):
at the same time, I thinkperhaps underutilized, you can
kinda confirm or deny thatinfluencer marketing.
They had a stat in the reportthat says it's converting 10 x
more than traditional socialmedia. How is that changing
customer engagement and theplans that we put together?
Michelle Baumann (23:30):
I think it is obviously, we know social
commerce is exploding. It's abig it's a big deal, especially
for younger shoppers. I think weare now moving to the point
where social and as we thinkabout things like TikTok have
been, let's call it like anexperimental test in every
marketer's plans. Hey, let'shold x percent of our budget and
(23:51):
test and see how this performs.I think we are now past the
testing point, and we've proventhat this is just a key part of
every media plan.
And so how do we make sure thatwe're starting to work with
brands to hold a certain amountof their budget consistently for
things like Amazon Storefronts,like TikTok shop, you know, even
(24:12):
looking at, at YouTube doingsome of their video content and
how do we make sure that there'sa real true part of the budget
invested in doing that type ofsocial commerce. I think also
knowing our brands know that ifthey're targeting younger Gen Z
Gen Alpha audiences that this isthe right move. But I think
reminding brands as well that asthey're looking to these,
(24:33):
millennial Gen X audiences, wecontinue to see this kind of
behavior where social commerceis really taking off. So it's
not a, hey. This is for ayounger audience.
This is a small bit. This reallyneeds to be a consistent part of
our our team's strategies now.
Nick Brunker (24:48):
So off the beaten path from from that topic, but I
think tangential to it, is theimpact of some of the emerging
marketplace solutions. And Iknow that, you know, at least
every time that I log into X orif I'm, you know, scrolling
through other social media apps,like, I've got Timoo ads
everywhere. And much like TikTokkind of came out of I don't
(25:10):
wanna say nowhere, but itcertainly had a meteoric rise
once people started to latch on.For a long time in digital
shopping, well, Cyber Mondaystarted to get popular and
obviously bolted on to analready busy shopping season.
You're seeing more TMUs andAliExpress kind of, you know,
emerge at least in the UnitedStates.
(25:30):
How do you see that kind ofchanging the game or approaches
for marketers or even just howwe, as you and I as consumers,
shop? Because before, it was,alright. You wanna shop online?
It's primarily Amazon. Then thebig box retailers got better at
it, and now you've inserted acompletely new variable into
play.
How how has that impacted whatwe do as a as a group?
Michelle Baumann (25:52):
I think it's making us, think proactively a
lot more quickly. I think we canno longer react. I think, you
know, I talked about abouttesting and learning. It's
making sure that we start totest really quickly and hold out
the dollars to put marketingspend against these different
channels to see how theyperform. And it's making sure
(26:13):
that we're really choiceful whenwe use them that we don't just
hop on a trend because it's thelatest thing.
Nick Brunker (26:18):
Right.
Michelle Baumann (26:18):
But that we're very clear of who's the audience
we're trying to reach, what'sthe product, is this a good fit?
Because we know these audiencesare looking for that authentic
connection and they need to feellike this is a place that they
should be going to, to purchasethis product.
Nick Brunker (26:35):
So knowing that as we talked about off of the top,
that it's no longer just a oneday or even weekend sort of
shopping season, you know, forBlack Friday. It's as the power
of peak, report would suggest,it's becoming that that extended
season. How are brands measuringCX success? Because, obviously,
(26:55):
there's the, you know, it's theeconomy stupid sort of it's
revenue, it's profit. How doesCX measurement factor into this
extended period of time wherepeople are shopping in holiday?
Michelle Baumann (27:07):
Yeah. I mean, to your point, of course, bottom
line, CX success is did I getsomeone to buy my stuff? Right?
So I think first and foremost,obviously, am I getting my fair
share of the dollars? I thinkit's also being able to look at
media attributed sales againstall of the different tactics and
touch points that becomes moreand more important as you're
(27:28):
leveraging a number of differenttouch points along that journey,
making sure that you understandit's not that you were either
successful or unsuccessful, butwhich were the elements that
really drove that most successand getting to those those
pieces to plan for future.
I think also starting to look atwhat kind of retention we got
across the board. So not did wewin 1 single consumer at one
(27:51):
touchpoint throughout this 5week period, But were we able to
get consistency across thoseconsumers? And, you know, we
talked earlier about bringingall that data together to
identify what a single consumerlooks like, but that retention
piece is going to be huge. Did Idrive retention so I can start
to think about what my lifetimevalue might be with that
consumer beyond this holidaytime period?
Nick Brunker (28:13):
And I think the other thing that comes to mind
for me is the the the c x of thebuying process, which has to be
done. You mentioned the the freeshipping. What are the
expectations there? The ultimatedelivery experience, like the
onboarding, the, unboxingexperience. So, obviously, for a
lot of folks in this time ofyear, it's can it get here
(28:33):
before the holiday that I needto give it?
So So that's, like, primarynumber 1. But then there's also,
like, the the after effects ofbeing able to feel like you got
a good deal, but then also arereally engaged with the product.
So is it you know, in CX land,you know, proper, we've talked
about how, you know, brandexperience and commerce helps
ultimately, you know, make apromise and make it really easy
(28:55):
to buy. And then, you know, theCX side of the house, maybe this
is a little bit myopic, but thethought is, like, you prove the
promise by providing the good CXafter the ownership. So I think
as much as, like, this seasonright now is about the the,
making promise, doing creativeads, getting people through the
flow really easily.
It's it's also just thebeginning potentially for some
(29:17):
of the these brands of ofbuilding lifetime value and long
term customers. So, really not aquestion in there as much as a
really interesting way where,yeah, we're talking and thinking
a lot about, okay, the buyingprocess. How can we make it
easier? But then brands alsohave to make sure that they're
not forgetting that, okay, oncethey've bought it, once they've
engaged with it, once the gifthas been given, what are those
(29:38):
experiences that we can, youknow, continue to pay off after
the fact? And I think it's justfascinating.
Michelle Baumann (29:42):
Yeah. I I agree, and I think there's a
couple of things for brands tothink about there. You have your
loyalty programs and rewards,and I think, historically,
there's been a lot of pointbased systems. That's a very,
you know, traditional way ofthinking about it. But starting
to have tier programs, thinkabout what hotels and what, you
know, airlines do.
Starting to create that forother brands where you feel like
(30:04):
you've reached a certain status,giving out exclusive perks. So
it's it's a next a nextgeneration version of point
based. I'm really gamifying it.We know that gamification is
huge. How do we start to reallycreate that?
I also think there's a lot ofcommunity building. Right? So
how do you make somebody anadvocate for your brand? We talk
(30:24):
a lot about earned media and howdo you get somebody who
purchased and used your productto love it and to create their
own content on social and createthat buzz and start to build
communities where people aretalking about your brand,
customers are coming togetherand really strengthening that
connection so you canultimately, build the brand.
Nick Brunker (30:45):
It's, again, just feeding the beast. So you're
spending less time and andultimately money on trying to
promote your products the nexttime around. You're you're spot
on, and, we could talk for hourson this stuff. But knowing we
try to keep these around a 30minute episode, I wanted to do
one last thing with you. And forthose that have listened to the
show before know, we kinda liketo end our, episodes with some
(31:05):
fun facts about our guests orsome, you know, more off the
beaten path topics.
And since we are obviouslyrecording this podcast before
Black Friday right up until,the, the holiday season really
beginning, a lot of folks aregonna start to shut down already
for for the holiday. But thoselistening, this is when we
recorded it. So, two things Iwanted to talk to you about.
(31:26):
First thing, is there any BlackFriday to you as a shopper that
stands out, to you? Did you goout early for a product?
Are you somebody who always gotup early? Did you go buy a
product early because it was onsale? Tell me about the most
memorable Black Friday shoppingexperiences you've you've had in
your life.
Michelle Baumann (31:44):
Sure. Oh, that's a fun one. So I I was not
usually a huge Black Fridayshopper, but I do have a memory
of 1 Black Friday. And my momand I went out shopping. I think
I was in high school, and wejoked we couldn't believe we
were doing it.
We walked into a departmentstore, and we got a deal on some
new leather black boots. And, wewere actually amazed that it
(32:09):
wasn't nearly as crowded as weexpected it to be. I think a lot
of people were headed to theelectronic stores back then.
This this ages me. Right?
Nick Brunker (32:17):
I'm with you.
Michelle Baumann (32:17):
But we we we had a great time going and
buying some some new fashionproducts that I would have just
in time for the holiday season.So that experiential element of
it, right, that we're talkingabout still being important to
people, was very memorable tome. Well,
Nick Brunker (32:32):
what's really funny about that, and not to go
down that rabbit hole too far, II think it is interesting to see
who, has that historical like,that's just what we did. Like,
we would get up, and I now havefamily and friends that would
that's just part of theirThanksgiving. Just like people
that are in Detroit, they watchthe Lions or or in Dallas, they
watch the Cowboys or reallyanybody across the country. It's
like kind of football and food.It's a tradition.
(32:54):
Like, getting up and going tothe stores has been a tradition.
So it's always funny to seethose as digital has come
online. Like, how many peopleactually still just do it
because it's, well, that's whatwe always do. I have not been
that guy. I typically did not goout.
I, a, I hate getting up early.B, I don't really like a lot of
crowds. Although I don't mindthem, I really don't wanna stand
(33:15):
in line. And c, I hate beingcold. So standing outside in the
cold is another no no for b, butI digress.
The second thing I wanted to dobefore we wrap up is a little
rapid fire thanks giving,preference testing. So Okay.
Depending on who you are anddepending on how you've grown
up, there are some what seem tobe very visceral reactions to
(33:38):
certain thanksgiving traditionsin in relation to food. So first
and foremost, pumpkin pie, applepie, or other pie?
Michelle Baumann (33:46):
Well, I actually made an early
Thanksgiving, and I made anapple pie, and I bought a
pumpkin pie. So that's a reallyhard one for me, but I will say
apple. Let's say apple.
Nick Brunker (33:55):
Okay. So that that basically segues away from my
next question was with thepumpkin pie, although you said
you bought 1, are you a whippedcream or cool whip? Oh, whipped
cream always. And are you likeme where you have to overload
the whipped cream or are you aless whipped cream sort of
person?
Michelle Baumann (34:14):
Just a little dot on top.
Nick Brunker (34:16):
Alright. Next question. Food touching or food
separate?
Michelle Baumann (34:21):
I am fine with the food touching. I like having
my corn in my mashed potatoesYes. My cranberry sauce on top
of my turkey.
Nick Brunker (34:29):
That and speaking of that, I'm totally aligned
with you there. This is where Ifeel like people, like, throw
down. Fights actually can beginover this conversation. The
canned cranberry or the freshcranberry relish?
Michelle Baumann (34:44):
Growing up, we always had canned cranberry, and
I actually just said the otherday, I can't believe that we
didn't make it. I personallymake it from scratch, and I did
this year because makingcranberry sauce from scratch
takes all of 10 minutes. So I'mI'm a make it from scratch.
Nick Brunker (35:00):
Alright. Alright. And I'm I'm not actually opposed
to either one, But when I hadthis conversation with somebody
yesterday and we didn't reallyget into an argument, but the
the person was, like, viscerallyagainst the canned cranberry.
They thought it was the mostdisgusting thing ever. So I'm
like, ah, it's, you know, tastesgood to me.
I don't mind it. It's easier tocut. Just cut it up like Jell O.
(35:20):
It's fine.
Michelle Baumann (35:21):
Yes.
Nick Brunker (35:22):
The other one that I think has come up there are 2
other ones, and then we can wrapup. Green bean casserole. Is it
a yay or anay?
Michelle Baumann (35:30):
No. I don't do it. There's too many good foods.
Why bother with vegetables thatare unhealthy anyway?
Nick Brunker (35:36):
I am with you. I could not agree more, and I'm
also, like, doubling down on thefact that I just don't like
mushrooms. And so I know I'veheard other recipes. People are
gonna yell at me or send meemails, but, like, I just can't.
I just can't do that.
Michelle Baumann (35:46):
I don't like mushrooms either. I'm with you.
It sounds like we would have alovely Thanksgiving dinner
together.
Nick Brunker (35:51):
Yeah. I'm totally with you. I I think we should do
it. I think we should do it.Maybe, you know, have a
Thanksgiving feast after thefact when we get back from
vacation.
I I love it. Last, probably mostchallenging question that I've
asked in relation toThanksgiving. Favorite dish?
Michelle Baumann (36:05):
Mashed potatoes. I love mashed
potatoes.
Nick Brunker (36:08):
That was a quick answer. Most people, like, go
between, like, a few of the, youknow, the tried and true's, but
you had you did you had thatbowl in the chamber. Mashed
potatoes all the way.
Michelle Baumann (36:18):
Mashed potatoes always. Yes.
Nick Brunker (36:20):
From scratch?
Michelle Baumann (36:22):
Yes. They have to be. Mashed potatoes have to
be from scratch.
Nick Brunker (36:25):
Oh, I love it. I love it. Michelle, I know this
has been a busy season for youas you can understand, for
everybody, but for youespecially in the commerce
space. Yeah. It means a lot thatyou were able to jump on a a
call with us and chat.
Thanks again for all the greatinsights, and have a have a
great Thanksgiving.
Michelle Baumann (36:41):
Absolutely. Thank you. Have a great
Thanksgiving too, Nick.
Nick Brunker (36:43):
And thanks to you all for listening to Human
Centered as well. To learn moreabout VML CX practice and our
approach to the work, you cancheck us out online atvml.com.
We'd also love to hear yourfeedback on the show. Give us a
rating and offer up yourthoughts wherever you listen to
your podcasts, including Apple,Spotify, Stitcher, Amazon, and
more. Have a topic idea or justwanna drop us a line or maybe a
(37:04):
Thanksgiving recipe?
You can connect with me onx@nickbrunker, or you could
shoot us an email. The addressis human centered at vml.com.
Thanks again for listening.We'll see you next time.
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