June 11, 2025 • 54 mins
On this episode of Human Centered, host Nick Brunker welcomes Nick Yecke, Executive Director of Experience Strategy at VML, to explore the fascinating evolution of customer experience (CX). Inspired by Yecke's recent article in eXp Magazine, they chart a course through CX's history, from the early "Service Era" and "Satisfaction Era" through the "Relationship Era" and the current "Experience Economy." The conversation then dives deep into what Yecke terms the "Predictive and Autonomous Era," where AI, data analytics, and automation are set to reshape how businesses anticipate and fulfill customer needs proactively. They discuss key pillars like hyper-personalization, AI-driven self-service, emotion and context recognition, "Invisible CX," and the critical importance of ethical considerations and trust in this new landscape. Tune in to understand how the lessons of the past are shaping a future where CX becomes more intuitive, efficient, and deeply human-centered.
You can read Nick Yecke's article, "Looking Back, Looking Forward," in eXp Magazine here, beginning on page 48.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nick Brunker (00:01):
Hi, everyone. Welcome to Human Centered. I'm
Nick Brunker, a managingdirector of experience strategy
at VML and your host for theshow. Today, we're exploring a
topic at the heart of everybusiness, customer experience.
It's a field that's evolveddramatically from simple
interactions to sophisticateddata driven experiences many of
us now expect.
To truly understand where we'reheaded, it's often said we need
(00:22):
to understand the past. Ourguest today has done some deep
thinking on this subject andmore. He's chartered a course
through CX's history and intowhat he terms the predictive and
autonomous era, where technologyand AI are set to reshape CX
even further. I'm thrilled towelcome in Nick Yecki, executive
director of experience strategyat VML, whose recent work in eXp
(00:44):
Magazine actually sparked thisconversation. Nick, welcome to
Human Centered.
Pleasure to have you.
Nick Yecke (00:49):
Awesome to be here, Nick. Thanks. It's gonna be get
kinda confusing with all theNicks thrown out today, but I
guess we'll we'll deal with it.Thanks for having me. Excited to
talk through this and hopefullysome other things.
Nick Brunker (00:59):
Likewise, man. And, certainly a busy time for
all of us in the CX space.Before we delve into the
evolution, that we're gonnaspend most of our time talking
about, perhaps you could share abit about your own journey, both
at VML and just overall in CX.
Nick Yecke (01:12):
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I feel like from a career
perspective, a lot of thingshave added up to getting me
where I am today with CX. I'vegot a, you know, I kind of came
of age in the Internet era,right? Kind of the one one point
zero, two point zero era, whichwas awesome and exciting. And I
think we've lived through acouple of things, since with
(01:32):
mobile and, you know, social andthe mobile and, obviously AI now
super interesting.
But my background is really, Iwas kind of a software
engineering and business majorin college. So super interested
in how do we create things. Iwas really into graphic design
in high school. If you go backto that, that year of myself. So
just kind of enamored withcomputers and creating things
(01:54):
and all that.
And ultimately I've had a bit ofa history of entrepreneurship as
well. I like to try things liketo dabble in things. So my
business was a breakfastdelivery service in the Detroit
area where I grew up. My mom wasa high school teacher and we're
just looking for some sideincome and so we kind of started
this business together which ispretty cool. We collect bagels
(02:16):
from a couple of great spotsaround town on Sunday mornings
and deliver them but the smellof kind of sweaty cardboard and
paper bags still gets me to thisday because that's what our cars
would smell like.
But anyways, love creatingthings and I've always done
that. I've started a couplestartups, raised venture in that
(02:39):
world, spent a number of yearsin the agency world as well kind
of by accident, buildingcreative and building technology
experience there. Then I've beena VML for about ten years now,
is unbelievable. Time flies, aseveryone says, but, and have
been a part of this customerexperience and experience
(03:00):
strategy team with yourself, anda bunch of other phenomenal
people. So yeah, here today andreally kind of try to apply that
creativity, that spirit ofentrepreneurship and just at the
core, like understanding what dopeople need and trying to solve
problems for them on a day today basis.
Nick Brunker (03:16):
Going back to that small business that you set up,
the bagel biz, is that an areathat maybe ignited your passion
for CX being able to delivergoods and services to people?
What things like that along theway really ignited your passion
for the space? Because you havehad such a broad experience set,
no pun intended. What got youinterested in experience
(03:38):
strategy and experience designas the capability is a thing
became more of a major than aside hustle. Totally.
Nick Yecke (03:46):
Yeah. And I think I, you know, it was nothing on
purpose, right? As many thingsin life are are I, one thing I
learned from that bagel businesswas something I kinda learned
from my mom along the way. Andyou know, she wouldn't say she
had any expertise in this butwe're really just delivering
bagels at right and so she'slike hey what if we diversify
the business we're getting theserequests from our customers like
(04:06):
they wanted wanted cream cheeseand they wanted lox and they
wanted orange juice, and acouple of people wanted Frosted
Flakes for their grandkids thatwere coming over. And some
people were saying, hey, do havemuffins or cookies?
You don't want to go crazy inthat. But I think what we
learned and we did a nice job ofiterating by chance. We added a
few items to our stable ofofferings and that really met
(04:29):
customer needs, met them wherethey were and they were feasible
for us to bring forward. Solearned a lot there. I built a
solar energy startup a number ofyears ago, which is a
marketplace for for solarinstallers kind of at the cusp
of that solar industry startingto take off in The United States
or at least we thought it wastaking off at the time and
(04:49):
learned a lot there.
I think we missed on a bunch ofstuff, right? And I think that's
something to this day that kindof drives me forward of we
really do need to trulyunderstand at a deep level what
customers need, what people, notcustomers even, what people
need, right? Like what do peopleneed? What are looking for? How
can we help them?
How can we use technology as anaccelerant to help them through
that? And I think if I wouldhave had a bit more of that
(05:10):
mindset would have beensuccessful in different ways in
some of those ventures too. Soit's just it's a clear lesson
and it's kind of that true norththat I always come back to is
deeply understanding and andunderstanding broadly where
people are and what they need,what the gaps are, what they
love, and then kinda workingaround that to to bring new
(05:32):
things to them.
Nick Brunker (05:33):
You you hit on one of the eras and that's actually
one of the segues I'll use tomove to the next Yeah. Part of
the discussion, which is as youwrote the article that we'll
post in the show notes for eXpMagazine and and kinda sparked
this conversation, you startedto go into the history of CX and
as a good strategist would,trying to simplify the complex
down into a handful of of erasthat you've seen evolve over
(05:56):
time. We've talked about a fewdifferent ones on the show
before. But in your piecespecifically, you talk about the
service era, the satisfactionera, the relationship era, and
the experience economy. We candive in a little deeper into
each one in a minute, but fornow, could you give us a sense
of each and maybe highlight howeach of those stages built upon
the previous and reallytransformed how businesses
(06:18):
engage with customers?
Nick Yecke (06:19):
Absolutely. Yeah. I just I kinda nerded out on this.
I hadn't seen I was doing apresentation for for a client,
and, you know, they wanna whatwhat about the future of CX?
Right?
And I'm like, oh, awesome topic.But, like, we kinda have to
understand the past to to knowthe future and see where it's
going. So that's where that'swhere this came from. So I broke
this up in in four eras, youknow, in broad buckets. So
(06:42):
you've got the service era,think pre nineteen hundreds to
nineteen fifties.
So really a really broad periodof time in our history, but this
is you we start to get to theidea of personal interactions
and transactional service. Soyou're thinking of like
Woolworths, so you're thinkingof Sears. This is the year in
which like the Sears catalogcame out. Those Sears catalogs
(07:02):
came out. And so that was quitean innovation at the time for
people to get, be able to flipthrough and choose kind of self
discover, in kind of a quoteunquote personalized manner.
Pretty awesome. And that's setthe tone, right? That's set the
tone for innovations movingforward from the corner store to
something a bit moreorchestrated. And then we move
(07:23):
into the satisfaction era, whichis a next kind of wide period of
time 50s to the 80s, where weget into customer satisfaction
and loyalty measurement from abusiness perspective, businesses
seeing this as experiencebroadly, and engaging with
customers is something importantto their bottom line, which I
think set us up for the future.We had the onset of
(07:45):
technologies, the internetobviously in the 90s to the
2000s as we moved in therelationship era.
A big kind of transitiontransformation from The early
days of choice, you started tosee CRM systems and things of
that nature come to bear, right?So we're building the
(08:06):
foundations of customerexperience. And then finally
experience economy, is where weare. We have been probably since
the twenty ten's ish throughtoday, and you could argue we're
accelerating into a new era withAI in it. And AI probably
creates a new era moving forwardthat's informed by experience.
But experience economy is reallyabout being data driven,
(08:28):
personalized, immersiveexperience, bringing many more
factors to play to help peopleget really custom specific
experiences that help delivervalue to them at the end of the
day.
Nick Brunker (08:40):
So I guess we could start with the service era
a little more deeply. Yeah.Thinking about that, we'll just
call it the start of what we'rechatting through in the pre,
nineteen hundreds throughnineteen fifties, often
described as maybe a center onpersonal interactions where
trust and relationships weredriving loyalty, where it really
(09:01):
was more of a a one to one in aweird way because of you know,
just that's how business wasdone then. What enduring lessons
can modern CX draw from theemphasis on personal
interactions built on trust andrelationship?
Nick Yecke (09:14):
I love that question because I think this is the root
of experience, which at the endof the day, it's all about
humans, right? I mean, the nameof this podcast, Human Center,
right? This is about humans andserving humans and people, and
that's what was going on in thatera. We were and it was simple.
We were listening, helpingpeople in a direct,
uncomplicated manner, you know,be it at the corner store, be it
(09:37):
through, you know, innovationslike the Sears catalog, like I
mentioned, but providing a levelof service.
Right? Service was somethingthat wasn't just getting the
product in your hands. It wasdoing it maybe in a kind manner,
right, in a value add mannerwhere you explained how to use
the product, how to how to usethe medication that you were
(09:58):
purchasing or the tool that youwere purchasing for yard or farm
work or whatever that may be.But I think overall, I think
pulling this forward is likesimplicity at the end of the day
and listening and understandingpeople where they're at could be
a very simple question, inaddressing that head on so they
can make progress, right? Theycan make progress in what
(10:18):
they're trying to accomplish asyour customer and or your
partner, within the business.
So yeah, love the service here.Mean it's a wide set of time
1900s, pre 1900s even throughthe 50s. But it was a time of
great change you know, obviouslyin The US as The US expanded
significantly during that timetoo.
Nick Brunker (10:39):
Yeah. And then you fast forward to the satisfaction
era where you're we're talkingnineteen fifties, baby boomers
into the early nineteeneighties. You would, you know,
in the piece talked aboutsatisfaction, being defined
through increased competitionand differentiation and
ultimately satisfaction beingthe, you know, the holy grail of
(10:59):
of sorts. You know, you hadmentioned in the piece about
American Airlines, the advantageprogram as an example. Yep.
How do you think and why do youthink we saw that shift and how
it began to redefine customerloyalty? Yeah, I think, I
Nick Yecke (11:14):
mean, I actually look at the satisfaction era
after thinking about it more,probably more than anyone should
or has, but this was reallyabout, I think this is more
selfish from a businessperspective, business centric in
this case, like businesses sawthe value in creating great
experience, right? And so westarted to see things like the
Advantage Program, which isawesome. I would argue it's
(11:34):
maybe better for the businessthan it is for customers at the
end of the day as many of thesetravel programs are. But that's
okay, customers get value out ofthem, free flights and upgrades
and things of that nature. Butfrom a business perspective,
they saw tremendous value here.
We actually have the systemsavailable in this time, right?
We started to have computing anddatabases and things of that
(11:55):
nature available to us in thistime. So, I think it was really,
really about businessesaccelerating and growing during
this time of satisfaction,measurement of satisfaction,
bringing that to the forefrontin the boardroom, right? Like
satisfaction being somethingimportant to measure beyond just
sales, margin, etcetera. Theother piece I think that was
(12:18):
interesting in this era, whichis a little more kind of
advertising driven, but I thinkit impacts experience or it sets
the foundation for experiences.
We started to see some moreemotion enter the experiences
during this time. If you look atCoca Cola and what they did over
time with developing characters,the Santa campaigns, like all
those things, I'm not sayingthey're exclusive to this era,
(12:40):
but I think they really cameinto the mainstream. Yeah.
McDonald's in a big way. Right?
They think of the characters ofRonald McDonald and like his
crew really set a foundation ofexperience. And then that
translated in a McDonald's case.I mean, remember when I was a
kid, those characters would beall over the store. Oh my Right?
And so the experience wasdifferentiated.
Nick Brunker (13:02):
I think it's a really interesting discussion
point you bring up around theway that stories were starting
to get told, how value isperceived, from a customer
perspective. And it was just atthe beginning, again, dating
ourselves a little bit about thesame time periods in which we
grew up, where Yeah. You weren'tquite ready in the, you know,
(13:22):
mid nineteen eighties, earlynineteen eighties to, you know,
almost connect in a way that wasbeyond when you go to a store
and you see these charactersand, you know, they're you know,
when you're looking on a TVcommercial, like, you start to
experience value through acompletely different, prism, if
you will, in the nineteeneighties. And then you shift
(13:43):
into, the early nineties andinto the February, which brings
us to how you describe it, therelationship era. And it's
where, really, technologystarted to mature in a big way,
as all the CRM systems werestarting to become a reality.
The Internet was starting toscale. Omnichannel experiences,
even in the the later nineties,were starting to become a thing.
(14:06):
Can you think back to at thatthat period of time, both in
your research, but then also inyour in your own experience? How
did it how did technology startto fundamentally alter the
customer relationships duringthat time? And how do you recall
and remember some
Nick Yecke (14:24):
of those things as you've grown up in that era? For
sure. Well, I think, you know,like the concept of CRM systems
maturing with software indevelopment during that time was
critical. Right? Just theconcept of, like, having data on
customers and being able to dothings with that.
I think the other way I thinkabout this too is especially
with the Internet. Right? Andthis is maybe a bit bit just my
(14:47):
perspective. But with theInternet, I think the experience
became the business and theoffering in a lot of ways. For
me, a big kind oftransformational moment, I
remember it was like discoveringeBay, right, in the nineties.
Yeah. And eBay was like, all ofa sudden there was this world
where the data and theinformation and the experience
was the product and the businessof eBay, This marketplace
(15:10):
concept and interacting withpeople across the country or
across the world to buy uniquethings, be it a music poster
from a festival that I wasinterested in, right, or a
football card or a baseball cardI was collecting at the time,
right, or some cool t shirt,vintage t shirt I wanted to
purchase, but like that requiredthe eras that came before it in
(15:31):
terms of people's expectationschanging, technology enabling
this, data being collected overtime. But I think ultimately the
experience became the businessand the offering and started to
much more so in this era.
Nick Brunker (15:42):
And and I just was thinking of something too when
when you date ourselves againback to the late nineties when
the Internet started to come upmore, you're downloading music.
You know, Napster was a bigthing. Amazon was just getting
underway. The the sort of thingsthat you might think about, like
what does connection with thebrand actually feel like as
(16:02):
technology was beginning toscale. We were still probably in
its infancy stage, not evenreally infancy stage, even more
premature than that to where wego next, which is the experience
economy, let alone where we'regonna go in this new era of AI
and anticipation and predictivearea Yep.
Areas. But gosh, it does itreminds me of how little we were
(16:30):
really connecting with brands inthe digital space. And so we
were still heavily reliant onall the physical react
interactions, but we were alsoin a position where individually
human to human, thinking likeAOL Instant Messenger, and
others, where where those newbudding types of connections
(16:50):
were starting to form at apersonal level. So I found I
find it interesting looking backto, like, how the experience
economy was quite literallybuilt, is the next, like, era
that we talk about.
Nick Yecke (17:01):
Yep.
Nick Brunker (17:02):
How the way that that era in the, you know, let's
just call it, you know, mid twothousands, to present would not
have been possible if the theregular people, I'm gonna call
it that humans, without brands,we're starting to reshape how
interaction was done and howvalue was perceived. Like, could
talk to you on AOL InstantMessenger, which was a
(17:23):
completely new concept. We wereyears away from being able to
connect with the brand that way,let alone be personalized in our
communications from a brand to acustomer. Having had a chance to
sit back and think about it,man, how much crazy progress was
made between, let's just call it1998, '99 through 2005 even. And
(17:49):
and how brands quite literallyas we know them today were
shaped.
Sometimes in cases created bythe fact that those those little
technologies that were startingto gain steam completely
agnostic of any business tookshape in that relationship era
in the late nineties. It'scrazy.
Nick Yecke (18:07):
Yeah. And they know those concepts, right? You you
mentioned concepts that are nowI think critical to customer
experience overall experiencesthat every, know, most if not
every brand, big and smalloffers, you know, think about
eBay and the concept ofmarketplace, digital marketplace
wasn't something. So brandstoday, they either create their
own marketplaces or participatein marketplaces, right? I mean,
(18:29):
Amazon is the biggest example ofthat, that we have gigantic
brands that are Colgate, P andG.
Right? Like everyone's peopleare selling cars within within
that marketplace today. I thinkthe concept of instant AIM,
right? Ailments and messengerback in the day, like, you know
they translate that out to chatright like I mean you get chat
(18:50):
support and chat service and theprogress that that's making from
being like AI driven into thefuture and being insanely
helpful for people. I think thatreally laid the ground with
these kind of new brands at thetime.
Then if you think about thosebrands today, they've evolved
significantly, I thinktransitioning to the experience
economy, which is, you know, asyou mentioned to kind of twenty
(19:11):
ten's, mid early two thousand'sto present. I really think about
this as you know, is a build,There's more data, more
personalization, there's a lotgoing on. There's also some
advocacy that goes on here withcompanies like Patagonia who are
maybe doing things that are lessdigital in terms of creating a
great personalized experiencearound people who want to
(19:35):
support the world around them.They don't want to overbuy. So
they create experiences that arerelevant to those groups.
I think for me the biggestdifferentiator here from as I'm
thinking and working withclients or looking at a business
or looking at a market is weneed to be much more full
journey. The the view is muchmore full journey, in this
(19:59):
experience economy. And Airbnb,I think is a great example here,
right? Airbnb, incrediblebusiness, but what they've done
over time is expand from justwhere you rest your head at
night, right, into if you'veseen any of their campaigns over
the past six or so months,experiences. Experiences are
where they've they've beenbuilding this for some time,
(20:19):
but, like, that is full journey.
So it's not just about where youstay. It's about what you do
when you go to a destination.Yeah. And I think they're even
pushing those in your localcities now today. So, you know,
part of this is if you look at Iwas watching a baseball game
last night and they were talkingabout the sport the complex
being built around the stadium.
Was actually the the RoyalsKansas City Royals playing the
(20:41):
Saint Louis Cardinals.
Nick Brunker (20:42):
Yeah.
Nick Yecke (20:42):
If you ever been to Saint Louis and been to the
baseball stadium there, it'sbeen there for a number of
years. It was a nice stadium.It's been a long time since I've
been there, but there's allbunch of vacant land around
there. But now they've built abunch of stuff up, which this is
the norm. If you look at likeAtlanta, if you go to LA, any of
these cities, they've built upthese complexes.
And so these are much more fulljourney experiences that clubs
(21:05):
and these cities are building,right? It's not just about going
to the game. It's about maybespending a weekend around the
game, staying near the game,eating near the game, going to a
museum, right? Like fullimmersion. And I think that
perspective of full journey andthat goes beyond just the
interaction that your corebusiness has with a customer is
(21:26):
really critical to the era thatwe've been in and that we're
moving into as technology AIspecifically accelerates.
Nick Brunker (21:34):
Yeah. And the data behind that obviously enables,
more, you know, intelligentrecommendations. And, well,
ultimately, what we've seen inthe metrics is that people will
pay more for those personalizedexperiences, which makes total
sense. Why why wouldn't you? AndI think the the Arena District
as we we've called it in otherplaces where they've got, you
(21:55):
know, hotels and other eventsand things to do, they it really
does become more than just theevent.
And much like you're sellingmore than just the product.
You're you're selling theexperience around the product.
And I think it's a reallyinteresting, like, on ramp for a
lot of brands that are stillstuck in a, you know, product
led, and not in a bad way, butjust focused on on selling the
(22:15):
widget versus, you know, theactual benefit the widget might
bring and then saying, well,where else can we add value
tangentially to our business?And I think that's been a really
interesting area for for me asI've, advanced and and worked
through my career is to see howa lot of unlocks have taken
place even in the last ten yearswhere companies are now moving
(22:38):
beyond just here, I'm gonna sellyou this thing that hopefully
you will use and like to I'mactually gonna help advance and
improve your life, which goesback to the idea of
Nick Yecke (22:48):
Yeah.
Nick Brunker (22:48):
As the podcast would would reference human
centered and being able to addadd values to the life, not just
the business, which I think is agreat segue to looking forward
and to find For sure. What'snext. Because I do get a sense,
and I've talked to many of ourguests about this. I feel like
we're kind of in that samegeneral window that we were in
(23:11):
in the mid nineties when we weretalking about, you know, the
Internet was getting up tospeed, pun intended, that more
people were getting access toit. It was unlocking new ways to
do work and business.
I feel like we're there in a lotof ways. And I'm playing back
some of the things that wetalked about when we were
hitting on that era, but alsojust thinking about how we're
(23:34):
being smart with data now, howthings are becoming more
autonomous. In the PC road, youwere talking about the
predictive and autonomous era,which is kind of where all of
the stuff that we've beentalking about the last few
episodes about AI and thepredictive nature of our
business stacks, etcetera, arereally interesting. And I feel
like we're on the cusp of earlystages of realizing the
(23:57):
potential, much like we were inthe nineties when we're like,
man, this Internet thing, it's athing. This is this is not just
a thing that's gonna, you know,marginally improve the way that
we have previously done things.
So much like you were talkingbuilding on the era before it,
the key idea here is thecompany's ability to anticipate
and fulfill needs proactivelydriven by AI, autonomy or
(24:22):
automation. Automation and dataanalytics are really going to be
the lifeblood or perhaps thedeath blow to these to these
businesses exist the way they dotoday. Let's unpack that a
little bit and what that reallymeans for business and
customers.
Nick Yecke (24:37):
You know, one thing we are we we are absolutely at a
I was one of the podcasts Ilistened to. I was the other
day, and we're in a we're in atime of change, and I think
everyone agrees it's notcontroversial whatsoever, but
we're at a time of massivechange similar to the Internet,
as you mentioned. I mean, we'vehad kind of a crypto wave and a
mobile wave and a crypto wave inthere. And, you know, some of
(24:58):
those have had a little morequestion to them. But I think in
this this next wave, there's noquestion.
I think the biggest question is,how does it impact and what is
the uptake, right? Like howquickly do people get involved
and what does maturity start tolook like? So I think as we look
at like anticipating experiencein the future and helping people
(25:21):
out, think this is just simplythe expectation, right? Like, my
kids who are, under 10, but Idon't I see a world where they
never know any different, right?Like, things are going to be
served up to them, you know, theproducts they need, the advice
they need, all those things aregonna be served up on a silver
platter as they're interactingwith the chat GBTs of the world.
(25:43):
It's integrated into theirwatches or their phones or their
glasses, their earbuds orwhatever it may be. The thing
that worries me about this ispeople are inherently lazy,
right? Like we're pleasureseekers and we're inherently
lazy and we've been programmedto expect this at this point
which is this concept of likedon't make me think which is one
of the principles I think weoften use in customer experience
(26:04):
of like how do we improve this?Like you know how do we apply
the principle of don't make methink here and I think we're at
an extreme end of that at leastthe tool of AI can help us get
to an extreme end of that. So Ithink that's where we're moving
very, very rapidly where thingsare gonna become even more
transparent for people, but wecan you know, there's some kind
(26:26):
of principles or pillarsunderneath this that I think get
into some more specific usecases, which I really like.
Nick Brunker (26:30):
Alright. Let's talk about a couple of those
pillars. I think we Cool. Youwere hitting on some of the
hyper personalization stuff,which I think Yeah. You know,
evidenced in the story.
You're talking Spotify as justone of many examples. So that's
pretty cool. The the otherpillar is around AI driven
automation and self-service,which I again, I think you hit
hit the nail on the head. Muchlike I think the early two
(26:52):
thousands babies and beyond, theInternet wasn't a new thing. It
was just that it was inherent tohow they live their life.
And I think we're we're probablygonna be seeing some of that in
the very near future for ourkids. I have kids as well, three
three under 10. And and this isjust the way it goes. Much like
I think the best example of thatmost parents could probably, of
(27:12):
our age at least relate is, whatdo you mean I have to watch an
ad? Like, what do you mean Ican't choose the show?
I wanna we're just gonna watchwhat's on. Like, that it's forms
and then, yeah, that'sabsolutely what, you know, you
and I and many people our age orolder. That was just that was
the way it was. What happened?Sorry.
That was the option. Yeah. Andso My
Nick Yecke (27:32):
my son the other day asked me about what was the
question? We were watchingsomething, and he said, Dan, why
didn't the pictures have colorin them before? Because we saw a
black and white photo. I thinkit was a black and white photo
in something. He's like, why didthe pictures not have color in
them?
And I said, it's kind of adifficult question to answer.
Just, you know, my simple brainis that we just have the
(27:55):
technology, We've advancedconsiderably. I said we didn't
have television. We didn't havevideo, right? Like until
somewhat recently.
So that rate of change it is. Itis just I like those moments
because they make you appreciateand take a step back on the
advancements, which is crazy.
Nick Brunker (28:13):
Yeah. I think what is fun about it is you get to
really start to bridge the gapbetween was completely novelty
and mind blowing. It's every dayfeels like there's a new mind
blowing technology that startsto roll itself out. I mean, just
at its base level, automationand self-service are playing and
(28:34):
continue to play a critical rolein making CX more efficient and
accessible. You had a a reallygood example from the medical
space combining old schoolmonitors with digital
enhancements.
Like, definitely compelling.There's something about that
nostalgia there. Could youexpand on how the integration
allows users well, let's justkeep it in the health space to
track their health independentlyand how more industries might
(28:55):
adopt similar, more costefficient and also customer
controlled experiences?
Nick Yecke (28:59):
Yeah. For sure. The example I found I mean, I found
it, I hadn't seen it personallywas a company called Higgy or
Higgy I believe and they what,it's those old school blood
pressure monitors that sit inlike pharmacies and such, which
if you go into a pharmacy ifyou're waiting for a
prescription ever, you'll seepeople have used them and it's
great and keep track of yourblood pressure. But what they've
done is they've added basicallyan app interface to it, right?
(29:22):
It sits on your phone so youkind of track and then get
proactive recommendations on it.
So something that maybe seemsobvious to us today, but what I
love about that and this idea oflike automation and self-service
is what are things that peopleengage with today that maybe are
a bit more a bit less advanced Iguess, right? And how do we make
(29:43):
them more simpler to use? How dowe create simplicity? How do we
create more power and more valueout of that experience? And I
think that's a great one.
I think from a spend a lot oftime thinking about like
contractors and construction andthings of that nature in my day
job. You know this is a simpleone here. How do we think about
(30:05):
the idea of like autoreplenishment, right? So people
don't have to leave the job siteand how do you use data,
contextual data, predictiveanalytics, things of that
nature. So it's almost a selfit's actually beyond a
self-service experience at thatpoint, right?
Someone their products show upat their feet so they can keep
doing the job, making money,making their customers happy.
(30:29):
That is an incredible automationand self-service experience for
someone as long as you get itright, right? That's always the
question. Do get it right? Do wesend them too much, too little,
the wrong thing, the wrong SKU?
But I think we're getting to aworld where we have enough data
on these customers, we knowtheir behaviors, we know the
(30:49):
jobs that they're in, that wecan bring them some automation
in case which helps everyone. Imean it helps them make more
money, be more efficient, but atthe end of the day it helps
their customer too. Thehomeowner or whoever they're
working for be happier with theproject at the end of the day.
So I think a lot can be appliedthere.
Nick Brunker (31:09):
There's another fascinating area that I was
talking with Brian Yamato aboutbecause he had come out and back
from CES. This was many monthsago now, but he was talking
about the idea of emotion andcontext recognition as it
relates to, like, devices youcould have attached to you in
some way. You know, as as creepyas, like, you know,
(31:31):
microchipping to just havingsensors and sweat sensors, those
those have existed at least insome capacity for a while. But
the idea that now with theseadvancing technologies married
with additional technologiesthat have come online, we're
enabling experiences that canadapt to the customer's
emotional states, like down tophysiological levels of
(31:51):
emotional states.
Nick Yecke (31:52):
Yep.
Nick Brunker (31:52):
How do you see this emotion driven CX that's
potentially measurable and and,like Yep. That based on not just
what we kind of are feeling andthinking, but but science. And
and that being a crucialdifferentiator, particularly in
things like medical or highstress, high touch industries
like that, or even travel?
Nick Yecke (32:11):
Yeah, for sure. I think a very real application
here is from an emotionperspective, if you're in
healthcare or if you're intravel, how do we detect
frustration? How do detect thelevel of frustration or the
level of joy or happiness orexcitement in someone's voice,
tone, what they're typing? Andthese are things that can be
(32:33):
done today. I think if you getback to the core, which again is
like helping people out, right?
Like meeting them where they areand helping them out. If I know
Nick, that you're superfrustrated because you can't get
this appointment rescheduled andyou need it for your kid because
they've got an ear infection orwhatever it may be, or something
worse, right? You're in a cancertreatment program and your loved
(32:56):
one is maybe, and you'remanaging that for them, your
frustration can boil over. And Ithink we don't always solve that
well. And especially given thetools, right?
This is one of the knocks ofbeing more automated and
autonomous and self-service,right? Like we lose that human
connection where a person cankinda sense sense the mood,
(33:17):
sense what's going on and solvefor it. But I think in this case
like sensing that in voice andin tone is a simple way. I think
your mention of getting intosensors and things of that
nature. I think that requiressome hardware and such, but I
think in particularapplications, I think deep into
healthcare, deep into treatmentmakes sense.
(33:38):
I think another really justsimple application here is like,
as a travel company, youmentioned travel, we've all been
there, right? Like we know thestorm's coming, we know we've
got a flight, we want to gethome or we want to get out to
our vacation. How can we usethat context and be really
proactive, and personalize andthe travel company come back and
(33:58):
say, hey, It looks like thisweather's moving in. I can bump
you up thirty minutes, or Icould bump you up an hour or
move you back to the next day.And here's a hotel that you
could stay in that kindamaintains your trip.
Right? Like, some really simplethings here, but, like, this is
the idea of emotion and contextrecognition that I think is
pretty, pretty deep and valuableto to find some new solutions or
(34:20):
some some additional solutionsto really help people have
better experiences.
Nick Brunker (34:24):
And and it's in that moment, not an upsell or,
you know, here. Here's how youcould spend more money. It's
actually, here's how I canimprove your day or your
situation in context with otherother things. And before, you
were definitely reliant on, youknow, individual humans being
able to make those connections,whereas machines might be able
to do that. And and again,empower the the frontline
(34:47):
employees to do better, moreimpactful work, which I think is
another Yeah.
Story and another podcast foranother day of of the whole you
know, doomsday scenario thatpeople are bringing in our
world, especially of, well, AIis gonna take all of our jobs.
Well, I think there there'ssomething to be said for being
able to reshift our ourpriorities and how we as humans
(35:10):
leverage this new technology tomake better experiences for
people at the end of the day.The other really interesting
area that that you hit on in inthe piece, and again, we'll link
to it on our podcast show notes,is this concept of invisible CX.
And it's an area that I'm reallyfascinated with because, you
know, we all are creatures ofhabit, good, bad, or
indifferent. And they you youknow, you hear the word, and
(35:34):
this is like the perhaps one ofthe most overused words in our
space, especially in experiencestrategy is seamless.
And, obviously, back to theconcept of Invisible CX.
Nick Yecke (35:45):
Not Don't want a bad word at
Nick Brunker (35:46):
this point. Everything needs to be seamless.
Not and, frankly, sometimes theseams are actually what make the
experience good because, youknow, you need that that barrier
or, you know, a shift in contextor just a a mental repositioning
to whatever a moment. Right.Yeah.
And, you know, there are thingslike Sam's Club does it. Mean,
(36:07):
really everybody's taking afterit now. The scan and goes where
you could just take what youwant and leave. And that that is
seamless, but it's also acomplete shift in the mental
model. If the goal is toeliminate friction and save
time, yet also help customerskind of do new things, have new
(36:27):
behaviors and habits, how doesthe approach of Invisible CX
reshape how engagement withbrands will be making
interactions still smooth andintuitive while also Yep.
Being aware that, you know,seamless doesn't always equal
better.
Nick Yecke (36:42):
Let me meander for a little for a here, and and I'll
get I'll get get there. I thinkif we go back to emotion and
then invisible, I actually thiswas just I saw this in something
a couple days ago just remindedme, it's nothing new. Chewy.com
Chewy user as a pet owner, orderyour food automatically auto
ship, they kind of I don't know,I don't know if they invented it
(37:03):
but they get a lot of credit forauto ship and things of that
nature. Dog food was alwayssomething that are pet food and
supplies are something peopledon't want to deal with. They've
got this kind of magical storywhich I know many people who
this has happened to, their dogdies, right?
Their pet dies and passes away,and then, their next auto ship
comes and their food shows upand they're kind of crushed,
(37:23):
right? It's I've I've beenthere. I've I've had a pet that
that's happened with. And theyreach back out and say, hey,
cancel my auto ship, my pettype, whatever. And then they
send flowers, right?
They send flowers to the home,know, $20.25 bucks or whatever
it costs to send flowers. That'sa customer for life. Experience
of like, that's emotional andcontext recognition to a tee.
(37:44):
There's some like invisibleexperience going on in there as
well. It's like kind of weird onthe back end of that.
But I just think it's abeautiful story and a beautiful
reminder that any business orany person could find those
moments and create specialmoments out of them, to bring
them forward for others. I thinkin terms of Invisible CX and
(38:05):
where I'm going here is with theexperience at moments being
invisible, it is so much moreimportant that brands have
attributes, have distinction,have things that make them stand
out in the minds of customersotherwise because I would argue
(38:27):
the interfaces are going to getmore and more transparent and
invisible over time. Right. Soyou think about, you know, I
love the Sam's Club one. It wasthe time I had ever done scan
and go was at a Sam's Club andit was kind of magic for me.
I'm like, this is sweet. I don'twant stand in line. I usually go
to Costco and I got to stand inthis long line when I'm done.
Right. Costco, I guess, isrolling out, know, as they do
and those are fabulouscompanies.
(38:48):
Costco is rolling out a versionof that as well. I just read an
article a week or so ago aboutthat. But I think as we move
forward into new interfaces thatcollect massive amounts of data,
right? Which is essentially whatAI is, right? We've got access
to all the data in the world andwith a few keystrokes we can get
something back that'ssynthesized and personalized for
(39:08):
us.
So there is a day not far awaywhere we're just talking to our
AI and it's dropping stuff atour front door or it's getting
our vehicle serviced or it'sputting a new shirt in my
closet, whatever that might be.And so I think brands, it's
going to be critical thatwhatever those attributes may
be, in the case of a Costco orSam's Club, it's like, you know,
(39:30):
they do curation, right? Theproducts that they carry are
well curated, they're wellpriced, they're done in volume,
they're accessible, right? Thosedistinctive attributes are going
to be really important becausewhen I am working with that AI
interface in the future and ittruly is invisible experience,
I'm going to be requesting stufffrom that provider, from that
(39:51):
company, from that retailerbecause there are attributes
against it. So I think it isincumbent upon brands to make
sure that those are deeplyrooted in the products and
services they deliver.
You're starting to see connectoropen AI. I think there's a new
release or something thathappened this week or within the
past couple weeks and theyintroduced connectors or
(40:13):
additional connectors likepreviously they had these
connectors into just like Gmailand calendar and drive. Now
they've got them going into abunch of other places, GitHub
and a bunch of other placeswhere you can it's much more
from a business use perspective,right? So how can I access my
data to get greater insights andmore action against my data?
Those connectors are going to beto Amazon and Walmart and Sam's
(40:36):
Club and Dick's Sporting Goodsin the near future from a
consumer perspective, right?
Where I can connect my account,they know like what my family
looks like, what my buyingpreferences are, the types of
sports or the types of you knowdeodorant I purchase, whatever
that is and it's gonna have amuch better profile for me to
shop against. And so I believethis is just really doubles down
(40:58):
on this idea of brands creatingdistinction and being firmly
rooted in what their valueproposition is because it could
get easy it will be easier andeasier for them to get lost in
the future.
Nick Brunker (41:10):
Put this last pillar that we're gonna get into
into the same bucket of we couldprobably spend an entire episode
or more talking about this. Andthat's ethical and trust driven
CX because everything you justsaid is underpinned by the
critical need to be grounded inethics and trust. And I think
(41:31):
well, like we we've talked aboutbefore, customers are willing to
pay more for personalizedexperiences, and I think they'll
they'll still likely be a, youknow, look through the safety
prism that a customer does whenit's like, oh, I can connect
this to this to this and it'sgonna help improve my day.
Great. But they're also, I thinkis likely going to be an even
(41:52):
more significant, you know, lookat, well, how comfortable am I
with making brand a actuallyaware of what my family really
looks like and what they do andwhat they buy?
And I think that comes back to,not to pull it back to the
beginning of this conversation,the the service era and personal
(42:12):
interaction. Yep. Whether it'struly like physical in person
one to one experiences, buttrust and being willing to say
this brand that I'm going to beable to connect my life to in a
sense, I'm willing to do that.And there are plenty of examples
out there of brands that not inthe AI era necessarily yet, but
(42:32):
other brands who have have donewrong by customers by way of
data. But I imagine and andmaybe you can talk a little bit
about this as we talk thispillar.
Why is it so vital forbusinesses to proactively
implement transparency, privacyprotection while also showing
that they're ethical, butthey're also gonna help you. And
and some of that is a a valueexchange of, I really can
(42:56):
improve your life if you aregonna share with me this, this,
this, and this and not getbogged down in, well, I don't
know if I wanna connect my bankaccount to this, or I don't know
if I wanna account
Nick Yecke (43:07):
For sure.
Nick Brunker (43:07):
My kids' data to this. How do you see that?
Nick Yecke (43:10):
Yeah. I mean, I wish I was I was a bit smarter, but I
think I I I think a couplethings are going on here. I
think there's an opportunity atthe moment for, there's a lot of
confusion, right? We're in asuper hype cycle right now as it
relates to AI and all the datathat's being consumed. Even I
think one of the prime things ifyou go and look at overviews of
(43:30):
the various platforms that areout there, One of the criteria
that people always talk about islike data and how is it shared
and that's where does it go,does it help train the model
etcetera, etcetera.
So we're in this crazy hypecycle. I think that presents an
opportunity for brands and forcompanies and businesses to come
out and have a really strongstance, be very clear and open
(43:52):
about how they use data, whythey need to use data in certain
ways, how you can protect andhave control over that data. Can
I even see the data? Can I loginto a dashboard? Can I delete
things?
Do I trust that it's beingdeleted? Where is it being
stored? I think these are thingsthat have been a bit hazier in
(44:13):
the past. I think now it'sincumbent upon companies to take
the wheel a bit, And I think itcan be a differentiator and
something that someone couldactually accelerate themselves
with by taking a really strongstance here. So I you know, it's
I don't know where it plays out,but I know it's it is critical
(44:35):
and people care about this andthey're going to only care as
you go deeper and deeper anddeeper into the world of kind of
consumers and normal people.
They're going to be even moreskeptical, right? And they're
going to care even more. Rightnow we are at the very early
days, right? Like the earliestdays of innovation, even if we
have great usage of tools likeAI, the earliest days where
(44:57):
people don't understand all theimplications. And I think that's
gonna happen very quickly.
So big opportunity, I think herefor brands to take control and
even just start talking aboutthis, and that will create
action.
Nick Brunker (45:08):
Well, and somebody had written, and I remember what
slide it was in the presentationI saw, it was let's see I can
find it. Yeah. The the the everymodel you interact with, that is
gonna be the worst version thatit's ever going to be from this
point forward, which I thinkYep. It's it's that just rings
true for so many reasons, butit's crazy to think how rapidly
(45:31):
the model you're interactingwith at this moment. Your mind
is blown.
In a lot of cases, mind is. Istumbled upon, you know, in
doing research on on Google v othree, and it's just mind
blowing.
Nick Yecke (45:41):
Yep.
Nick Brunker (45:42):
Yet Yep. To the point that statement is, it it
is the worst it's ever going tobe at this exact moment in time.
And it it's a great segue to thechallenges, the opportunities,
and the path forward and and howbrands and marketers, both CX
pros and more traditionalmarketers can lead the way, in
customer centricity. At the endof the day, and you put it
(46:02):
nicely in in the piece youwrote, is putting customers at
the center of everything isstill gonna be the key to long
term success. What does it takefor companies to truly embody
this principle and lead the wayin putting customers but also
shaping what the future of CX isgoing to be?
Nick Yecke (46:19):
I think this goes back, as you said, to, just
being grounded in in the people,right? Being grounded,
understand their worlds,understand what they're
concerned about, understand whatthey're trying to accomplish,
understanding where they're attoday, right? Like, and so that
comes through knowing yourcustomers, seeing how they
interact in the world,understanding what their
journeys are, understanding whatthose highs and lows are, right?
(46:41):
Like I think none of that stuffchanges. It just the tools that
we use, the tooling that we usearound it, the speed that we
accelerate around it changes.
But I think at the end of theday, back to like the service
era, know, pre 1900, it's likethe handshake over the counter
at the corner store that evolvedinto something a bit more
personalized. Like how do werecreate that and make sure
(47:03):
because in that interaction atthe corner store there's a lot
of care and humanity that comesthrough in that. So it's
incumbent upon us all to notlose that the fever of
technology and acceleration andall the cool interesting things
that are happening again at theend of the day we're serving
(47:24):
people. So I think that's whereI would a council perspective,
right? Make sure you're focusedon the people, what they truly
need, where their gaps are, whattheir hopes, dreams and fears
are, and then use your toolingout to bring that to life.
Nick Brunker (47:39):
Amazing stuff as always and as expected. Before
we wrap up, let's do some rapidfire fun facts about Nick Yecki.
Yeah. I I think that there's onething in particular I I was not
going to go off the the rails ordown the rabbit hole earlier,
but I'm gonna bring it up. Youand I both went up to Miami
University, the public IB inOxford, Ohio.
(48:01):
You you mentioned the bagel, thebagel delivery shop. How did
your business compare to andthis is gonna be really inside
baseball for those that don't goto Miami,
Nick Yecke (48:13):
but This is great.
Nick Brunker (48:13):
There's a little bagel and deli shop. It's what
they call it. Bagel and deli inOxford that is a just absolute
staple if you go to the theuniversity. How does your
business compare to thatbusiness?
Nick Yecke (48:25):
I should have worn my Bagel and Deli t shirt now
that it's it's over in the otherroom. Yes. Much different. We
would not have competed. Wewould have brought them their
bagels so they could slice themin half and make delicious
sandwiches out of them.
Nick Brunker (48:38):
Alright. Good news. They were not a
competitor.
Nick Yecke (48:40):
Got it. Yeah. Always a cool Juul's fan and oh, man.
What was I always get this.People make fun of me.
It was like the blueberry bagel,cream cheese, cinnamon sugar,
and banana in it. I forget thenames escaping me right now.
Delicious, though.
Nick Brunker (48:56):
I'm feeling it. You know, you Somebody who's
listening from Miami is gonna beso upset.
Nick Yecke (49:01):
Yeah. You get two bagels, and and that would
always be, like, the dessertbagel involved. But
Nick Brunker (49:06):
It's the best.
Nick Yecke (49:06):
Yeah. That's a great place. I love it. It's still
open from everything I seeonline. I took my family there a
couple years ago when we were inCincinnati, went down to Oxford,
and they didn't love it as muchas I hyped it up, but I thought
it was still as good as it gets.
Nick Brunker (49:20):
So they're still they're still young. They don't
quite understand the power of abagel or two. Exactly.
Nick Yecke (49:26):
Exactly. So they don't.
Nick Brunker (49:27):
They definitely don't. What else, keeps you busy
when you're not on the clock?
Nick Yecke (49:32):
Yeah, totally. I mean, I love this stuff. I'm a
nerd as I mentioned a few timesin here and listen to podcasts
and reading a ton of stuffthere. Young kids like you have
too. So we spend a lot of timeat the sports fields and in
playing.
So, you know and I made acommitment not a bad one at all,
a great one is like I'm gonnaget involved as much as I can so
(49:55):
I tend to coach all the teams atleast assistant coach them so I
get to know my kids and theirfriends and the parents and all
that stuff. That that keeps mereally busy kind of in this era
and then my wife and I love livemusic. So we try to go as many
shows as possible that when theycome to town or we travel
sometimes for stuff too. Soactually when I was at Miami and
(50:17):
one of the things I did therewas I ran the concert board
which we were responsible forbringing shows to campus. We do
I don't know three or so's ayear which is super fun and I
learned a lot about the musicbusiness back then which is
definitely very much servicebusiness, kind of a fascinating
industry.
But yeah, love that as well butthose things kind of keep me
(50:39):
busy otherwise I'm just gonnatake a nap from time to time.
Nick Brunker (50:42):
Does that happen? I would love to
Nick Yecke (50:44):
know. Yeah, exactly. It doesn't happen often that's
for sure.
Nick Brunker (50:47):
Let's ask them. What was the biggest or most
memorable band you brought toMiami when you were there?
Nick Yecke (50:53):
Oh, it's a good Well, we brought Bob Dylan
twice, which was bizarre. Nice.I don't know why we had
Nick Brunker (50:58):
him Did you work with his people directly? Like,
were you heavily involved inthat?
Nick Yecke (51:03):
Bob wasn't though. Bob usually so you know, there's
like the lore of the green room,right? Yes. The musicians, they
tear up the green room orwhatever, and you gotta get
green M and M's or whatever,blue M and M's or take out the
red ones. And that was the casefor some, like we had widespread
panic there, Bush and Moby,mean, think Yeah, likewise.
(51:25):
Back then. Those guys hung out,they were around a bit more so
we could we saw them. But Bobstayed on his bus until he went
on stage walked off stage wentback on his bus and got out of
it.
Nick Brunker (51:36):
Sounds about right.
Nick Yecke (51:37):
Not a lot of interacting with Bob but he put
on a couple of good shows. Wasfun just kind of fun to see the
it's crazy man, setting up thosestages, those stage hands, those
crews they have are those guysare hardcore. Do incredible work
in a very short period of timephysically and the engineering
that goes into it too. So thatwas a lot of fun. I I I miss
(52:00):
those days, but that it was agreat experience.
Nick Brunker (52:02):
And then last question before we let you go.
If you had to compare yourcoaching style to any NFL
individual NFL coach, who wouldyou liken yourself to?
Nick Yecke (52:14):
In the heat of the battle, well, football, I coach
a couple of fight footballteams, and then and we're we're
talking, like, and graders. Youshouldn't be like that. But when
you're trying to tell 5 or 6 orgraders to run a certain play on
a piece of paper and who iswhich one and I've color coded
it, I kind of turn into BillBelichick real fast. He's real
(52:37):
grumpy, right? It's just it'sit's a it's a grumpy mood going
on.
Raise my voice a little bit, butwe have a good time. It's,
that's a blast. I I really enjoycoaching football. I don't just
like the structure of it is isreally fun watching the kids.
It's hard.
It's it's a hard sport, right?These are sports for them to do,
(52:58):
but it's it's a ton of fun tosee them succeed and and learn a
bit and the amount they grow. SoI never thought I would compare
myself to Belichick, but I I doget a little little grumpy in
those in those huddles from timeto time.
Nick Brunker (53:09):
I'll admit, I thought you were gonna go Andy
Reid, but, you know, Belichickis fine. And if you're if you're
grumpy, then that that's onbrand for for mister Belichick.
I think Andy
Nick Yecke (53:16):
Reid's working with the better Andy Reid's got a
little better set of players.That's fair. They're a little
more tuned in. A little moretuned in.
Nick Brunker (53:23):
Well Let's see. Maybe we'll see what happens
with my Bengals this year, andyou could be a Zach Exactly.
Zach Taylor. We'll see. Oh, man.
It's it's been so good spendingtime with you. Incredibly
insightful deep dive as always,and it's it's great catching up
with you. Thanks for making timefor doing this. For sure.
Nick Yecke (53:37):
Well, thanks for having me. This is a blast.
Nick Brunker (53:39):
Hopefully we do it again soon. Likewise, man. And
to our listeners, you canexplore more of the thinking in
Nick Yacke's article LookingBack, Looking Forward in EXP
Magazine. We have, as mentioned,posted a link to it in the show
notes. You can also find it onvml.com, where you can also read
about our CX practice and ourapproach to the work.
We'd love to hear your feedbackon human centered. Please rate
us wherever you get yourpodcasts, including Apple,
(54:00):
Spotify, Stitcher, Amazon, andmany more. If you have a topic
idea or just wanna connect, youcan reach out to me on x at Nick
Brunker or email the show. It'shumancentered@vml.com. Thanks
again for listening.
We'll see you next time.
Hi, everyone. Welcome to Human Centered. I'm
Nick Brunker, a managingdirector of experience strategy
at VML and your host for theshow. Today, we're exploring a
topic at the heart of everybusiness, customer experience.
It's a field that's evolveddramatically from simple
interactions to sophisticateddata driven experiences many of
us now expect.
To truly understand where we'reheaded, it's often said we need
(00:22):
to understand the past. Ourguest today has done some deep
thinking on this subject andmore. He's chartered a course
through CX's history and intowhat he terms the predictive and
autonomous era, where technologyand AI are set to reshape CX
even further. I'm thrilled towelcome in Nick Yecki, executive
director of experience strategyat VML, whose recent work in eXp
(00:44):
Magazine actually sparked thisconversation. Nick, welcome to
Human Centered.
Pleasure to have you.
Nick Yecke (00:49):
Awesome to be here, Nick. Thanks. It's gonna be get
kinda confusing with all theNicks thrown out today, but I
guess we'll we'll deal with it.Thanks for having me. Excited to
talk through this and hopefullysome other things.
Nick Brunker (00:59):
Likewise, man. And, certainly a busy time for
all of us in the CX space.Before we delve into the
evolution, that we're gonnaspend most of our time talking
about, perhaps you could share abit about your own journey, both
at VML and just overall in CX.
Nick Yecke (01:12):
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I feel like from a career
perspective, a lot of thingshave added up to getting me
where I am today with CX. I'vegot a, you know, I kind of came
of age in the Internet era,right? Kind of the one one point
zero, two point zero era, whichwas awesome and exciting. And I
think we've lived through acouple of things, since with
(01:32):
mobile and, you know, social andthe mobile and, obviously AI now
super interesting.
But my background is really, Iwas kind of a software
engineering and business majorin college. So super interested
in how do we create things. Iwas really into graphic design
in high school. If you go backto that, that year of myself. So
just kind of enamored withcomputers and creating things
(01:54):
and all that.
And ultimately I've had a bit ofa history of entrepreneurship as
well. I like to try things liketo dabble in things. So my
business was a breakfastdelivery service in the Detroit
area where I grew up. My mom wasa high school teacher and we're
just looking for some sideincome and so we kind of started
this business together which ispretty cool. We collect bagels
(02:16):
from a couple of great spotsaround town on Sunday mornings
and deliver them but the smellof kind of sweaty cardboard and
paper bags still gets me to thisday because that's what our cars
would smell like.
But anyways, love creatingthings and I've always done
that. I've started a couplestartups, raised venture in that
(02:39):
world, spent a number of yearsin the agency world as well kind
of by accident, buildingcreative and building technology
experience there. Then I've beena VML for about ten years now,
is unbelievable. Time flies, aseveryone says, but, and have
been a part of this customerexperience and experience
(03:00):
strategy team with yourself, anda bunch of other phenomenal
people. So yeah, here today andreally kind of try to apply that
creativity, that spirit ofentrepreneurship and just at the
core, like understanding what dopeople need and trying to solve
problems for them on a day today basis.
Nick Brunker (03:16):
Going back to that small business that you set up,
the bagel biz, is that an areathat maybe ignited your passion
for CX being able to delivergoods and services to people?
What things like that along theway really ignited your passion
for the space? Because you havehad such a broad experience set,
no pun intended. What got youinterested in experience
(03:38):
strategy and experience designas the capability is a thing
became more of a major than aside hustle. Totally.
Nick Yecke (03:46):
Yeah. And I think I, you know, it was nothing on
purpose, right? As many thingsin life are are I, one thing I
learned from that bagel businesswas something I kinda learned
from my mom along the way. Andyou know, she wouldn't say she
had any expertise in this butwe're really just delivering
bagels at right and so she'slike hey what if we diversify
the business we're getting theserequests from our customers like
(04:06):
they wanted wanted cream cheeseand they wanted lox and they
wanted orange juice, and acouple of people wanted Frosted
Flakes for their grandkids thatwere coming over. And some
people were saying, hey, do havemuffins or cookies?
You don't want to go crazy inthat. But I think what we
learned and we did a nice job ofiterating by chance. We added a
few items to our stable ofofferings and that really met
(04:29):
customer needs, met them wherethey were and they were feasible
for us to bring forward. Solearned a lot there. I built a
solar energy startup a number ofyears ago, which is a
marketplace for for solarinstallers kind of at the cusp
of that solar industry startingto take off in The United States
or at least we thought it wastaking off at the time and
(04:49):
learned a lot there.
I think we missed on a bunch ofstuff, right? And I think that's
something to this day that kindof drives me forward of we
really do need to trulyunderstand at a deep level what
customers need, what people, notcustomers even, what people
need, right? Like what do peopleneed? What are looking for? How
can we help them?
How can we use technology as anaccelerant to help them through
that? And I think if I wouldhave had a bit more of that
(05:10):
mindset would have beensuccessful in different ways in
some of those ventures too. Soit's just it's a clear lesson
and it's kind of that true norththat I always come back to is
deeply understanding and andunderstanding broadly where
people are and what they need,what the gaps are, what they
love, and then kinda workingaround that to to bring new
(05:32):
things to them.
Nick Brunker (05:33):
You you hit on one of the eras and that's actually
one of the segues I'll use tomove to the next Yeah. Part of
the discussion, which is as youwrote the article that we'll
post in the show notes for eXpMagazine and and kinda sparked
this conversation, you startedto go into the history of CX and
as a good strategist would,trying to simplify the complex
down into a handful of of erasthat you've seen evolve over
(05:56):
time. We've talked about a fewdifferent ones on the show
before. But in your piecespecifically, you talk about the
service era, the satisfactionera, the relationship era, and
the experience economy. We candive in a little deeper into
each one in a minute, but fornow, could you give us a sense
of each and maybe highlight howeach of those stages built upon
the previous and reallytransformed how businesses
(06:18):
engage with customers?
Nick Yecke (06:19):
Absolutely. Yeah. I just I kinda nerded out on this.
I hadn't seen I was doing apresentation for for a client,
and, you know, they wanna whatwhat about the future of CX?
Right?
And I'm like, oh, awesome topic.But, like, we kinda have to
understand the past to to knowthe future and see where it's
going. So that's where that'swhere this came from. So I broke
this up in in four eras, youknow, in broad buckets. So
(06:42):
you've got the service era,think pre nineteen hundreds to
nineteen fifties.
So really a really broad periodof time in our history, but this
is you we start to get to theidea of personal interactions
and transactional service. Soyou're thinking of like
Woolworths, so you're thinkingof Sears. This is the year in
which like the Sears catalogcame out. Those Sears catalogs
(07:02):
came out. And so that was quitean innovation at the time for
people to get, be able to flipthrough and choose kind of self
discover, in kind of a quoteunquote personalized manner.
Pretty awesome. And that's setthe tone, right? That's set the
tone for innovations movingforward from the corner store to
something a bit moreorchestrated. And then we move
(07:23):
into the satisfaction era, whichis a next kind of wide period of
time 50s to the 80s, where weget into customer satisfaction
and loyalty measurement from abusiness perspective, businesses
seeing this as experiencebroadly, and engaging with
customers is something importantto their bottom line, which I
think set us up for the future.We had the onset of
(07:45):
technologies, the internetobviously in the 90s to the
2000s as we moved in therelationship era.
A big kind of transitiontransformation from The early
days of choice, you started tosee CRM systems and things of
that nature come to bear, right?So we're building the
(08:06):
foundations of customerexperience. And then finally
experience economy, is where weare. We have been probably since
the twenty ten's ish throughtoday, and you could argue we're
accelerating into a new era withAI in it. And AI probably
creates a new era moving forwardthat's informed by experience.
But experience economy is reallyabout being data driven,
(08:28):
personalized, immersiveexperience, bringing many more
factors to play to help peopleget really custom specific
experiences that help delivervalue to them at the end of the
day.
Nick Brunker (08:40):
So I guess we could start with the service era
a little more deeply. Yeah.Thinking about that, we'll just
call it the start of what we'rechatting through in the pre,
nineteen hundreds throughnineteen fifties, often
described as maybe a center onpersonal interactions where
trust and relationships weredriving loyalty, where it really
(09:01):
was more of a a one to one in aweird way because of you know,
just that's how business wasdone then. What enduring lessons
can modern CX draw from theemphasis on personal
interactions built on trust andrelationship?
Nick Yecke (09:14):
I love that question because I think this is the root
of experience, which at the endof the day, it's all about
humans, right? I mean, the nameof this podcast, Human Center,
right? This is about humans andserving humans and people, and
that's what was going on in thatera. We were and it was simple.
We were listening, helpingpeople in a direct,
uncomplicated manner, you know,be it at the corner store, be it
(09:37):
through, you know, innovationslike the Sears catalog, like I
mentioned, but providing a levelof service.
Right? Service was somethingthat wasn't just getting the
product in your hands. It wasdoing it maybe in a kind manner,
right, in a value add mannerwhere you explained how to use
the product, how to how to usethe medication that you were
(09:58):
purchasing or the tool that youwere purchasing for yard or farm
work or whatever that may be.But I think overall, I think
pulling this forward is likesimplicity at the end of the day
and listening and understandingpeople where they're at could be
a very simple question, inaddressing that head on so they
can make progress, right? Theycan make progress in what
(10:18):
they're trying to accomplish asyour customer and or your
partner, within the business.
So yeah, love the service here.Mean it's a wide set of time
1900s, pre 1900s even throughthe 50s. But it was a time of
great change you know, obviouslyin The US as The US expanded
significantly during that timetoo.
Nick Brunker (10:39):
Yeah. And then you fast forward to the satisfaction
era where you're we're talkingnineteen fifties, baby boomers
into the early nineteeneighties. You would, you know,
in the piece talked aboutsatisfaction, being defined
through increased competitionand differentiation and
ultimately satisfaction beingthe, you know, the holy grail of
(10:59):
of sorts. You know, you hadmentioned in the piece about
American Airlines, the advantageprogram as an example. Yep.
How do you think and why do youthink we saw that shift and how
it began to redefine customerloyalty? Yeah, I think, I
Nick Yecke (11:14):
mean, I actually look at the satisfaction era
after thinking about it more,probably more than anyone should
or has, but this was reallyabout, I think this is more
selfish from a businessperspective, business centric in
this case, like businesses sawthe value in creating great
experience, right? And so westarted to see things like the
Advantage Program, which isawesome. I would argue it's
(11:34):
maybe better for the businessthan it is for customers at the
end of the day as many of thesetravel programs are. But that's
okay, customers get value out ofthem, free flights and upgrades
and things of that nature. Butfrom a business perspective,
they saw tremendous value here.
We actually have the systemsavailable in this time, right?
We started to have computing anddatabases and things of that
(11:55):
nature available to us in thistime. So, I think it was really,
really about businessesaccelerating and growing during
this time of satisfaction,measurement of satisfaction,
bringing that to the forefrontin the boardroom, right? Like
satisfaction being somethingimportant to measure beyond just
sales, margin, etcetera. Theother piece I think that was
(12:18):
interesting in this era, whichis a little more kind of
advertising driven, but I thinkit impacts experience or it sets
the foundation for experiences.
We started to see some moreemotion enter the experiences
during this time. If you look atCoca Cola and what they did over
time with developing characters,the Santa campaigns, like all
those things, I'm not sayingthey're exclusive to this era,
(12:40):
but I think they really cameinto the mainstream. Yeah.
McDonald's in a big way. Right?
They think of the characters ofRonald McDonald and like his
crew really set a foundation ofexperience. And then that
translated in a McDonald's case.I mean, remember when I was a
kid, those characters would beall over the store. Oh my Right?
And so the experience wasdifferentiated.
Nick Brunker (13:02):
I think it's a really interesting discussion
point you bring up around theway that stories were starting
to get told, how value isperceived, from a customer
perspective. And it was just atthe beginning, again, dating
ourselves a little bit about thesame time periods in which we
grew up, where Yeah. You weren'tquite ready in the, you know,
(13:22):
mid nineteen eighties, earlynineteen eighties to, you know,
almost connect in a way that wasbeyond when you go to a store
and you see these charactersand, you know, they're you know,
when you're looking on a TVcommercial, like, you start to
experience value through acompletely different, prism, if
you will, in the nineteeneighties. And then you shift
(13:43):
into, the early nineties andinto the February, which brings
us to how you describe it, therelationship era. And it's
where, really, technologystarted to mature in a big way,
as all the CRM systems werestarting to become a reality.
The Internet was starting toscale. Omnichannel experiences,
even in the the later nineties,were starting to become a thing.
(14:06):
Can you think back to at thatthat period of time, both in
your research, but then also inyour in your own experience? How
did it how did technology startto fundamentally alter the
customer relationships duringthat time? And how do you recall
and remember some
Nick Yecke (14:24):
of those things as you've grown up in that era? For
sure. Well, I think, you know,like the concept of CRM systems
maturing with software indevelopment during that time was
critical. Right? Just theconcept of, like, having data on
customers and being able to dothings with that.
I think the other way I thinkabout this too is especially
with the Internet. Right? Andthis is maybe a bit bit just my
(14:47):
perspective. But with theInternet, I think the experience
became the business and theoffering in a lot of ways. For
me, a big kind oftransformational moment, I
remember it was like discoveringeBay, right, in the nineties.
Yeah. And eBay was like, all ofa sudden there was this world
where the data and theinformation and the experience
was the product and the businessof eBay, This marketplace
(15:10):
concept and interacting withpeople across the country or
across the world to buy uniquethings, be it a music poster
from a festival that I wasinterested in, right, or a
football card or a baseball cardI was collecting at the time,
right, or some cool t shirt,vintage t shirt I wanted to
purchase, but like that requiredthe eras that came before it in
(15:31):
terms of people's expectationschanging, technology enabling
this, data being collected overtime. But I think ultimately the
experience became the businessand the offering and started to
much more so in this era.
Nick Brunker (15:42):
And and I just was thinking of something too when
when you date ourselves againback to the late nineties when
the Internet started to come upmore, you're downloading music.
You know, Napster was a bigthing. Amazon was just getting
underway. The the sort of thingsthat you might think about, like
what does connection with thebrand actually feel like as
(16:02):
technology was beginning toscale. We were still probably in
its infancy stage, not evenreally infancy stage, even more
premature than that to where wego next, which is the experience
economy, let alone where we'regonna go in this new era of AI
and anticipation and predictivearea Yep.
Areas. But gosh, it does itreminds me of how little we were
(16:30):
really connecting with brands inthe digital space. And so we
were still heavily reliant onall the physical react
interactions, but we were alsoin a position where individually
human to human, thinking likeAOL Instant Messenger, and
others, where where those newbudding types of connections
(16:50):
were starting to form at apersonal level. So I found I
find it interesting looking backto, like, how the experience
economy was quite literallybuilt, is the next, like, era
that we talk about.
Nick Yecke (17:01):
Yep.
Nick Brunker (17:02):
How the way that that era in the, you know, let's
just call it, you know, mid twothousands, to present would not
have been possible if the theregular people, I'm gonna call
it that humans, without brands,we're starting to reshape how
interaction was done and howvalue was perceived. Like, could
talk to you on AOL InstantMessenger, which was a
(17:23):
completely new concept. We wereyears away from being able to
connect with the brand that way,let alone be personalized in our
communications from a brand to acustomer. Having had a chance to
sit back and think about it,man, how much crazy progress was
made between, let's just call it1998, '99 through 2005 even. And
(17:49):
and how brands quite literallyas we know them today were
shaped.
Sometimes in cases created bythe fact that those those little
technologies that were startingto gain steam completely
agnostic of any business tookshape in that relationship era
in the late nineties. It'scrazy.
Nick Yecke (18:07):
Yeah. And they know those concepts, right? You you
mentioned concepts that are nowI think critical to customer
experience overall experiencesthat every, know, most if not
every brand, big and smalloffers, you know, think about
eBay and the concept ofmarketplace, digital marketplace
wasn't something. So brandstoday, they either create their
own marketplaces or participatein marketplaces, right? I mean,
(18:29):
Amazon is the biggest example ofthat, that we have gigantic
brands that are Colgate, P andG.
Right? Like everyone's peopleare selling cars within within
that marketplace today. I thinkthe concept of instant AIM,
right? Ailments and messengerback in the day, like, you know
they translate that out to chatright like I mean you get chat
(18:50):
support and chat service and theprogress that that's making from
being like AI driven into thefuture and being insanely
helpful for people. I think thatreally laid the ground with
these kind of new brands at thetime.
Then if you think about thosebrands today, they've evolved
significantly, I thinktransitioning to the experience
economy, which is, you know, asyou mentioned to kind of twenty
(19:11):
ten's, mid early two thousand'sto present. I really think about
this as you know, is a build,There's more data, more
personalization, there's a lotgoing on. There's also some
advocacy that goes on here withcompanies like Patagonia who are
maybe doing things that are lessdigital in terms of creating a
great personalized experiencearound people who want to
(19:35):
support the world around them.They don't want to overbuy. So
they create experiences that arerelevant to those groups.
I think for me the biggestdifferentiator here from as I'm
thinking and working withclients or looking at a business
or looking at a market is weneed to be much more full
journey. The the view is muchmore full journey, in this
(19:59):
experience economy. And Airbnb,I think is a great example here,
right? Airbnb, incrediblebusiness, but what they've done
over time is expand from justwhere you rest your head at
night, right, into if you'veseen any of their campaigns over
the past six or so months,experiences. Experiences are
where they've they've beenbuilding this for some time,
(20:19):
but, like, that is full journey.
So it's not just about where youstay. It's about what you do
when you go to a destination.Yeah. And I think they're even
pushing those in your localcities now today. So, you know,
part of this is if you look at Iwas watching a baseball game
last night and they were talkingabout the sport the complex
being built around the stadium.
Was actually the the RoyalsKansas City Royals playing the
(20:41):
Saint Louis Cardinals.
Nick Brunker (20:42):
Yeah.
Nick Yecke (20:42):
If you ever been to Saint Louis and been to the
baseball stadium there, it'sbeen there for a number of
years. It was a nice stadium.It's been a long time since I've
been there, but there's allbunch of vacant land around
there. But now they've built abunch of stuff up, which this is
the norm. If you look at likeAtlanta, if you go to LA, any of
these cities, they've built upthese complexes.
And so these are much more fulljourney experiences that clubs
(21:05):
and these cities are building,right? It's not just about going
to the game. It's about maybespending a weekend around the
game, staying near the game,eating near the game, going to a
museum, right? Like fullimmersion. And I think that
perspective of full journey andthat goes beyond just the
interaction that your corebusiness has with a customer is
(21:26):
really critical to the era thatwe've been in and that we're
moving into as technology AIspecifically accelerates.
Nick Brunker (21:34):
Yeah. And the data behind that obviously enables,
more, you know, intelligentrecommendations. And, well,
ultimately, what we've seen inthe metrics is that people will
pay more for those personalizedexperiences, which makes total
sense. Why why wouldn't you? AndI think the the Arena District
as we we've called it in otherplaces where they've got, you
(21:55):
know, hotels and other eventsand things to do, they it really
does become more than just theevent.
And much like you're sellingmore than just the product.
You're you're selling theexperience around the product.
And I think it's a reallyinteresting, like, on ramp for a
lot of brands that are stillstuck in a, you know, product
led, and not in a bad way, butjust focused on on selling the
(22:15):
widget versus, you know, theactual benefit the widget might
bring and then saying, well,where else can we add value
tangentially to our business?And I think that's been a really
interesting area for for me asI've, advanced and and worked
through my career is to see howa lot of unlocks have taken
place even in the last ten yearswhere companies are now moving
(22:38):
beyond just here, I'm gonna sellyou this thing that hopefully
you will use and like to I'mactually gonna help advance and
improve your life, which goesback to the idea of
Nick Yecke (22:48):
Yeah.
Nick Brunker (22:48):
As the podcast would would reference human
centered and being able to addadd values to the life, not just
the business, which I think is agreat segue to looking forward
and to find For sure. What'snext. Because I do get a sense,
and I've talked to many of ourguests about this. I feel like
we're kind of in that samegeneral window that we were in
(23:11):
in the mid nineties when we weretalking about, you know, the
Internet was getting up tospeed, pun intended, that more
people were getting access toit. It was unlocking new ways to
do work and business.
I feel like we're there in a lotof ways. And I'm playing back
some of the things that wetalked about when we were
hitting on that era, but alsojust thinking about how we're
(23:34):
being smart with data now, howthings are becoming more
autonomous. In the PC road, youwere talking about the
predictive and autonomous era,which is kind of where all of
the stuff that we've beentalking about the last few
episodes about AI and thepredictive nature of our
business stacks, etcetera, arereally interesting. And I feel
like we're on the cusp of earlystages of realizing the
(23:57):
potential, much like we were inthe nineties when we're like,
man, this Internet thing, it's athing. This is this is not just
a thing that's gonna, you know,marginally improve the way that
we have previously done things.
So much like you were talkingbuilding on the era before it,
the key idea here is thecompany's ability to anticipate
and fulfill needs proactivelydriven by AI, autonomy or
(24:22):
automation. Automation and dataanalytics are really going to be
the lifeblood or perhaps thedeath blow to these to these
businesses exist the way they dotoday. Let's unpack that a
little bit and what that reallymeans for business and
customers.
Nick Yecke (24:37):
You know, one thing we are we we are absolutely at a
I was one of the podcasts Ilistened to. I was the other
day, and we're in a we're in atime of change, and I think
everyone agrees it's notcontroversial whatsoever, but
we're at a time of massivechange similar to the Internet,
as you mentioned. I mean, we'vehad kind of a crypto wave and a
mobile wave and a crypto wave inthere. And, you know, some of
(24:58):
those have had a little morequestion to them. But I think in
this this next wave, there's noquestion.
I think the biggest question is,how does it impact and what is
the uptake, right? Like howquickly do people get involved
and what does maturity start tolook like? So I think as we look
at like anticipating experiencein the future and helping people
(25:21):
out, think this is just simplythe expectation, right? Like, my
kids who are, under 10, but Idon't I see a world where they
never know any different, right?Like, things are going to be
served up to them, you know, theproducts they need, the advice
they need, all those things aregonna be served up on a silver
platter as they're interactingwith the chat GBTs of the world.
(25:43):
It's integrated into theirwatches or their phones or their
glasses, their earbuds orwhatever it may be. The thing
that worries me about this ispeople are inherently lazy,
right? Like we're pleasureseekers and we're inherently
lazy and we've been programmedto expect this at this point
which is this concept of likedon't make me think which is one
of the principles I think weoften use in customer experience
(26:04):
of like how do we improve this?Like you know how do we apply
the principle of don't make methink here and I think we're at
an extreme end of that at leastthe tool of AI can help us get
to an extreme end of that. So Ithink that's where we're moving
very, very rapidly where thingsare gonna become even more
transparent for people, but wecan you know, there's some kind
(26:26):
of principles or pillarsunderneath this that I think get
into some more specific usecases, which I really like.
Nick Brunker (26:30):
Alright. Let's talk about a couple of those
pillars. I think we Cool. Youwere hitting on some of the
hyper personalization stuff,which I think Yeah. You know,
evidenced in the story.
You're talking Spotify as justone of many examples. So that's
pretty cool. The the otherpillar is around AI driven
automation and self-service,which I again, I think you hit
hit the nail on the head. Muchlike I think the early two
(26:52):
thousands babies and beyond, theInternet wasn't a new thing. It
was just that it was inherent tohow they live their life.
And I think we're we're probablygonna be seeing some of that in
the very near future for ourkids. I have kids as well, three
three under 10. And and this isjust the way it goes. Much like
I think the best example of thatmost parents could probably, of
(27:12):
our age at least relate is, whatdo you mean I have to watch an
ad? Like, what do you mean Ican't choose the show?
I wanna we're just gonna watchwhat's on. Like, that it's forms
and then, yeah, that'sabsolutely what, you know, you
and I and many people our age orolder. That was just that was
the way it was. What happened?Sorry.
That was the option. Yeah. Andso My
Nick Yecke (27:32):
my son the other day asked me about what was the
question? We were watchingsomething, and he said, Dan, why
didn't the pictures have colorin them before? Because we saw a
black and white photo. I thinkit was a black and white photo
in something. He's like, why didthe pictures not have color in
them?
And I said, it's kind of adifficult question to answer.
Just, you know, my simple brainis that we just have the
(27:55):
technology, We've advancedconsiderably. I said we didn't
have television. We didn't havevideo, right? Like until
somewhat recently.
So that rate of change it is. Itis just I like those moments
because they make you appreciateand take a step back on the
advancements, which is crazy.
Nick Brunker (28:13):
Yeah. I think what is fun about it is you get to
really start to bridge the gapbetween was completely novelty
and mind blowing. It's every dayfeels like there's a new mind
blowing technology that startsto roll itself out. I mean, just
at its base level, automationand self-service are playing and
(28:34):
continue to play a critical rolein making CX more efficient and
accessible. You had a a reallygood example from the medical
space combining old schoolmonitors with digital
enhancements.
Like, definitely compelling.There's something about that
nostalgia there. Could youexpand on how the integration
allows users well, let's justkeep it in the health space to
track their health independentlyand how more industries might
(28:55):
adopt similar, more costefficient and also customer
controlled experiences?
Nick Yecke (28:59):
Yeah. For sure. The example I found I mean, I found
it, I hadn't seen it personallywas a company called Higgy or
Higgy I believe and they what,it's those old school blood
pressure monitors that sit inlike pharmacies and such, which
if you go into a pharmacy ifyou're waiting for a
prescription ever, you'll seepeople have used them and it's
great and keep track of yourblood pressure. But what they've
done is they've added basicallyan app interface to it, right?
(29:22):
It sits on your phone so youkind of track and then get
proactive recommendations on it.
So something that maybe seemsobvious to us today, but what I
love about that and this idea oflike automation and self-service
is what are things that peopleengage with today that maybe are
a bit more a bit less advanced Iguess, right? And how do we make
(29:43):
them more simpler to use? How dowe create simplicity? How do we
create more power and more valueout of that experience? And I
think that's a great one.
I think from a spend a lot oftime thinking about like
contractors and construction andthings of that nature in my day
job. You know this is a simpleone here. How do we think about
(30:05):
the idea of like autoreplenishment, right? So people
don't have to leave the job siteand how do you use data,
contextual data, predictiveanalytics, things of that
nature. So it's almost a selfit's actually beyond a
self-service experience at thatpoint, right?
Someone their products show upat their feet so they can keep
doing the job, making money,making their customers happy.
(30:29):
That is an incredible automationand self-service experience for
someone as long as you get itright, right? That's always the
question. Do get it right? Do wesend them too much, too little,
the wrong thing, the wrong SKU?
But I think we're getting to aworld where we have enough data
on these customers, we knowtheir behaviors, we know the
(30:49):
jobs that they're in, that wecan bring them some automation
in case which helps everyone. Imean it helps them make more
money, be more efficient, but atthe end of the day it helps
their customer too. Thehomeowner or whoever they're
working for be happier with theproject at the end of the day.
So I think a lot can be appliedthere.
Nick Brunker (31:09):
There's another fascinating area that I was
talking with Brian Yamato aboutbecause he had come out and back
from CES. This was many monthsago now, but he was talking
about the idea of emotion andcontext recognition as it
relates to, like, devices youcould have attached to you in
some way. You know, as as creepyas, like, you know,
(31:31):
microchipping to just havingsensors and sweat sensors, those
those have existed at least insome capacity for a while. But
the idea that now with theseadvancing technologies married
with additional technologiesthat have come online, we're
enabling experiences that canadapt to the customer's
emotional states, like down tophysiological levels of
(31:51):
emotional states.
Nick Yecke (31:52):
Yep.
Nick Brunker (31:52):
How do you see this emotion driven CX that's
potentially measurable and and,like Yep. That based on not just
what we kind of are feeling andthinking, but but science. And
and that being a crucialdifferentiator, particularly in
things like medical or highstress, high touch industries
like that, or even travel?
Nick Yecke (32:11):
Yeah, for sure. I think a very real application
here is from an emotionperspective, if you're in
healthcare or if you're intravel, how do we detect
frustration? How do detect thelevel of frustration or the
level of joy or happiness orexcitement in someone's voice,
tone, what they're typing? Andthese are things that can be
(32:33):
done today. I think if you getback to the core, which again is
like helping people out, right?
Like meeting them where they areand helping them out. If I know
Nick, that you're superfrustrated because you can't get
this appointment rescheduled andyou need it for your kid because
they've got an ear infection orwhatever it may be, or something
worse, right? You're in a cancertreatment program and your loved
(32:56):
one is maybe, and you'remanaging that for them, your
frustration can boil over. And Ithink we don't always solve that
well. And especially given thetools, right?
This is one of the knocks ofbeing more automated and
autonomous and self-service,right? Like we lose that human
connection where a person cankinda sense sense the mood,
(33:17):
sense what's going on and solvefor it. But I think in this case
like sensing that in voice andin tone is a simple way. I think
your mention of getting intosensors and things of that
nature. I think that requiressome hardware and such, but I
think in particularapplications, I think deep into
healthcare, deep into treatmentmakes sense.
(33:38):
I think another really justsimple application here is like,
as a travel company, youmentioned travel, we've all been
there, right? Like we know thestorm's coming, we know we've
got a flight, we want to gethome or we want to get out to
our vacation. How can we usethat context and be really
proactive, and personalize andthe travel company come back and
(33:58):
say, hey, It looks like thisweather's moving in. I can bump
you up thirty minutes, or Icould bump you up an hour or
move you back to the next day.And here's a hotel that you
could stay in that kindamaintains your trip.
Right? Like, some really simplethings here, but, like, this is
the idea of emotion and contextrecognition that I think is
pretty, pretty deep and valuableto to find some new solutions or
(34:20):
some some additional solutionsto really help people have
better experiences.
Nick Brunker (34:24):
And and it's in that moment, not an upsell or,
you know, here. Here's how youcould spend more money. It's
actually, here's how I canimprove your day or your
situation in context with otherother things. And before, you
were definitely reliant on, youknow, individual humans being
able to make those connections,whereas machines might be able
to do that. And and again,empower the the frontline
(34:47):
employees to do better, moreimpactful work, which I think is
another Yeah.
Story and another podcast foranother day of of the whole you
know, doomsday scenario thatpeople are bringing in our
world, especially of, well, AIis gonna take all of our jobs.
Well, I think there there'ssomething to be said for being
able to reshift our ourpriorities and how we as humans
(35:10):
leverage this new technology tomake better experiences for
people at the end of the day.The other really interesting
area that that you hit on in inthe piece, and again, we'll link
to it on our podcast show notes,is this concept of invisible CX.
And it's an area that I'm reallyfascinated with because, you
know, we all are creatures ofhabit, good, bad, or
indifferent. And they you youknow, you hear the word, and
(35:34):
this is like the perhaps one ofthe most overused words in our
space, especially in experiencestrategy is seamless.
And, obviously, back to theconcept of Invisible CX.
Nick Yecke (35:45):
Not Don't want a bad word at
Nick Brunker (35:46):
this point. Everything needs to be seamless.
Not and, frankly, sometimes theseams are actually what make the
experience good because, youknow, you need that that barrier
or, you know, a shift in contextor just a a mental repositioning
to whatever a moment. Right.Yeah.
And, you know, there are thingslike Sam's Club does it. Mean,
(36:07):
really everybody's taking afterit now. The scan and goes where
you could just take what youwant and leave. And that that is
seamless, but it's also acomplete shift in the mental
model. If the goal is toeliminate friction and save
time, yet also help customerskind of do new things, have new
(36:27):
behaviors and habits, how doesthe approach of Invisible CX
reshape how engagement withbrands will be making
interactions still smooth andintuitive while also Yep.
Being aware that, you know,seamless doesn't always equal
better.
Nick Yecke (36:42):
Let me meander for a little for a here, and and I'll
get I'll get get there. I thinkif we go back to emotion and
then invisible, I actually thiswas just I saw this in something
a couple days ago just remindedme, it's nothing new. Chewy.com
Chewy user as a pet owner, orderyour food automatically auto
ship, they kind of I don't know,I don't know if they invented it
(37:03):
but they get a lot of credit forauto ship and things of that
nature. Dog food was alwayssomething that are pet food and
supplies are something peopledon't want to deal with. They've
got this kind of magical storywhich I know many people who
this has happened to, their dogdies, right?
Their pet dies and passes away,and then, their next auto ship
comes and their food shows upand they're kind of crushed,
(37:23):
right? It's I've I've beenthere. I've I've had a pet that
that's happened with. And theyreach back out and say, hey,
cancel my auto ship, my pettype, whatever. And then they
send flowers, right?
They send flowers to the home,know, $20.25 bucks or whatever
it costs to send flowers. That'sa customer for life. Experience
of like, that's emotional andcontext recognition to a tee.
(37:44):
There's some like invisibleexperience going on in there as
well. It's like kind of weird onthe back end of that.
But I just think it's abeautiful story and a beautiful
reminder that any business orany person could find those
moments and create specialmoments out of them, to bring
them forward for others. I thinkin terms of Invisible CX and
(38:05):
where I'm going here is with theexperience at moments being
invisible, it is so much moreimportant that brands have
attributes, have distinction,have things that make them stand
out in the minds of customersotherwise because I would argue
(38:27):
the interfaces are going to getmore and more transparent and
invisible over time. Right. Soyou think about, you know, I
love the Sam's Club one. It wasthe time I had ever done scan
and go was at a Sam's Club andit was kind of magic for me.
I'm like, this is sweet. I don'twant stand in line. I usually go
to Costco and I got to stand inthis long line when I'm done.
Right. Costco, I guess, isrolling out, know, as they do
and those are fabulouscompanies.
(38:48):
Costco is rolling out a versionof that as well. I just read an
article a week or so ago aboutthat. But I think as we move
forward into new interfaces thatcollect massive amounts of data,
right? Which is essentially whatAI is, right? We've got access
to all the data in the world andwith a few keystrokes we can get
something back that'ssynthesized and personalized for
(39:08):
us.
So there is a day not far awaywhere we're just talking to our
AI and it's dropping stuff atour front door or it's getting
our vehicle serviced or it'sputting a new shirt in my
closet, whatever that might be.And so I think brands, it's
going to be critical thatwhatever those attributes may
be, in the case of a Costco orSam's Club, it's like, you know,
(39:30):
they do curation, right? Theproducts that they carry are
well curated, they're wellpriced, they're done in volume,
they're accessible, right? Thosedistinctive attributes are going
to be really important becausewhen I am working with that AI
interface in the future and ittruly is invisible experience,
I'm going to be requesting stufffrom that provider, from that
(39:51):
company, from that retailerbecause there are attributes
against it. So I think it isincumbent upon brands to make
sure that those are deeplyrooted in the products and
services they deliver.
You're starting to see connectoropen AI. I think there's a new
release or something thathappened this week or within the
past couple weeks and theyintroduced connectors or
(40:13):
additional connectors likepreviously they had these
connectors into just like Gmailand calendar and drive. Now
they've got them going into abunch of other places, GitHub
and a bunch of other placeswhere you can it's much more
from a business use perspective,right? So how can I access my
data to get greater insights andmore action against my data?
Those connectors are going to beto Amazon and Walmart and Sam's
(40:36):
Club and Dick's Sporting Goodsin the near future from a
consumer perspective, right?
Where I can connect my account,they know like what my family
looks like, what my buyingpreferences are, the types of
sports or the types of you knowdeodorant I purchase, whatever
that is and it's gonna have amuch better profile for me to
shop against. And so I believethis is just really doubles down
(40:58):
on this idea of brands creatingdistinction and being firmly
rooted in what their valueproposition is because it could
get easy it will be easier andeasier for them to get lost in
the future.
Nick Brunker (41:10):
Put this last pillar that we're gonna get into
into the same bucket of we couldprobably spend an entire episode
or more talking about this. Andthat's ethical and trust driven
CX because everything you justsaid is underpinned by the
critical need to be grounded inethics and trust. And I think
(41:31):
well, like we we've talked aboutbefore, customers are willing to
pay more for personalizedexperiences, and I think they'll
they'll still likely be a, youknow, look through the safety
prism that a customer does whenit's like, oh, I can connect
this to this to this and it'sgonna help improve my day.
Great. But they're also, I thinkis likely going to be an even
(41:52):
more significant, you know, lookat, well, how comfortable am I
with making brand a actuallyaware of what my family really
looks like and what they do andwhat they buy?
And I think that comes back to,not to pull it back to the
beginning of this conversation,the the service era and personal
(42:12):
interaction. Yep. Whether it'struly like physical in person
one to one experiences, buttrust and being willing to say
this brand that I'm going to beable to connect my life to in a
sense, I'm willing to do that.And there are plenty of examples
out there of brands that not inthe AI era necessarily yet, but
(42:32):
other brands who have have donewrong by customers by way of
data. But I imagine and andmaybe you can talk a little bit
about this as we talk thispillar.
Why is it so vital forbusinesses to proactively
implement transparency, privacyprotection while also showing
that they're ethical, butthey're also gonna help you. And
and some of that is a a valueexchange of, I really can
(42:56):
improve your life if you aregonna share with me this, this,
this, and this and not getbogged down in, well, I don't
know if I wanna connect my bankaccount to this, or I don't know
if I wanna account
Nick Yecke (43:07):
For sure.
Nick Brunker (43:07):
My kids' data to this. How do you see that?
Nick Yecke (43:10):
Yeah. I mean, I wish I was I was a bit smarter, but I
think I I I think a couplethings are going on here. I
think there's an opportunity atthe moment for, there's a lot of
confusion, right? We're in asuper hype cycle right now as it
relates to AI and all the datathat's being consumed. Even I
think one of the prime things ifyou go and look at overviews of
(43:30):
the various platforms that areout there, One of the criteria
that people always talk about islike data and how is it shared
and that's where does it go,does it help train the model
etcetera, etcetera.
So we're in this crazy hypecycle. I think that presents an
opportunity for brands and forcompanies and businesses to come
out and have a really strongstance, be very clear and open
(43:52):
about how they use data, whythey need to use data in certain
ways, how you can protect andhave control over that data. Can
I even see the data? Can I loginto a dashboard? Can I delete
things?
Do I trust that it's beingdeleted? Where is it being
stored? I think these are thingsthat have been a bit hazier in
(44:13):
the past. I think now it'sincumbent upon companies to take
the wheel a bit, And I think itcan be a differentiator and
something that someone couldactually accelerate themselves
with by taking a really strongstance here. So I you know, it's
I don't know where it plays out,but I know it's it is critical
(44:35):
and people care about this andthey're going to only care as
you go deeper and deeper anddeeper into the world of kind of
consumers and normal people.
They're going to be even moreskeptical, right? And they're
going to care even more. Rightnow we are at the very early
days, right? Like the earliestdays of innovation, even if we
have great usage of tools likeAI, the earliest days where
(44:57):
people don't understand all theimplications. And I think that's
gonna happen very quickly.
So big opportunity, I think herefor brands to take control and
even just start talking aboutthis, and that will create
action.
Nick Brunker (45:08):
Well, and somebody had written, and I remember what
slide it was in the presentationI saw, it was let's see I can
find it. Yeah. The the the everymodel you interact with, that is
gonna be the worst version thatit's ever going to be from this
point forward, which I thinkYep. It's it's that just rings
true for so many reasons, butit's crazy to think how rapidly
(45:31):
the model you're interactingwith at this moment. Your mind
is blown.
In a lot of cases, mind is. Istumbled upon, you know, in
doing research on on Google v othree, and it's just mind
blowing.
Nick Yecke (45:41):
Yep.
Nick Brunker (45:42):
Yet Yep. To the point that statement is, it it
is the worst it's ever going tobe at this exact moment in time.
And it it's a great segue to thechallenges, the opportunities,
and the path forward and and howbrands and marketers, both CX
pros and more traditionalmarketers can lead the way, in
customer centricity. At the endof the day, and you put it
(46:02):
nicely in in the piece youwrote, is putting customers at
the center of everything isstill gonna be the key to long
term success. What does it takefor companies to truly embody
this principle and lead the wayin putting customers but also
shaping what the future of CX isgoing to be?
Nick Yecke (46:19):
I think this goes back, as you said, to, just
being grounded in in the people,right? Being grounded,
understand their worlds,understand what they're
concerned about, understand whatthey're trying to accomplish,
understanding where they're attoday, right? Like, and so that
comes through knowing yourcustomers, seeing how they
interact in the world,understanding what their
journeys are, understanding whatthose highs and lows are, right?
(46:41):
Like I think none of that stuffchanges. It just the tools that
we use, the tooling that we usearound it, the speed that we
accelerate around it changes.
But I think at the end of theday, back to like the service
era, know, pre 1900, it's likethe handshake over the counter
at the corner store that evolvedinto something a bit more
personalized. Like how do werecreate that and make sure
(47:03):
because in that interaction atthe corner store there's a lot
of care and humanity that comesthrough in that. So it's
incumbent upon us all to notlose that the fever of
technology and acceleration andall the cool interesting things
that are happening again at theend of the day we're serving
(47:24):
people. So I think that's whereI would a council perspective,
right? Make sure you're focusedon the people, what they truly
need, where their gaps are, whattheir hopes, dreams and fears
are, and then use your toolingout to bring that to life.
Nick Brunker (47:39):
Amazing stuff as always and as expected. Before
we wrap up, let's do some rapidfire fun facts about Nick Yecki.
Yeah. I I think that there's onething in particular I I was not
going to go off the the rails ordown the rabbit hole earlier,
but I'm gonna bring it up. Youand I both went up to Miami
University, the public IB inOxford, Ohio.
(48:01):
You you mentioned the bagel, thebagel delivery shop. How did
your business compare to andthis is gonna be really inside
baseball for those that don't goto Miami,
Nick Yecke (48:13):
but This is great.
Nick Brunker (48:13):
There's a little bagel and deli shop. It's what
they call it. Bagel and deli inOxford that is a just absolute
staple if you go to the theuniversity. How does your
business compare to thatbusiness?
Nick Yecke (48:25):
I should have worn my Bagel and Deli t shirt now
that it's it's over in the otherroom. Yes. Much different. We
would not have competed. Wewould have brought them their
bagels so they could slice themin half and make delicious
sandwiches out of them.
Nick Brunker (48:38):
Alright. Good news. They were not a
competitor.
Nick Yecke (48:40):
Got it. Yeah. Always a cool Juul's fan and oh, man.
What was I always get this.People make fun of me.
It was like the blueberry bagel,cream cheese, cinnamon sugar,
and banana in it. I forget thenames escaping me right now.
Delicious, though.
Nick Brunker (48:56):
I'm feeling it. You know, you Somebody who's
listening from Miami is gonna beso upset.
Nick Yecke (49:01):
Yeah. You get two bagels, and and that would
always be, like, the dessertbagel involved. But
Nick Brunker (49:06):
It's the best.
Nick Yecke (49:06):
Yeah. That's a great place. I love it. It's still
open from everything I seeonline. I took my family there a
couple years ago when we were inCincinnati, went down to Oxford,
and they didn't love it as muchas I hyped it up, but I thought
it was still as good as it gets.
Nick Brunker (49:20):
So they're still they're still young. They don't
quite understand the power of abagel or two. Exactly.
Nick Yecke (49:26):
Exactly. So they don't.
Nick Brunker (49:27):
They definitely don't. What else, keeps you busy
when you're not on the clock?
Nick Yecke (49:32):
Yeah, totally. I mean, I love this stuff. I'm a
nerd as I mentioned a few timesin here and listen to podcasts
and reading a ton of stuffthere. Young kids like you have
too. So we spend a lot of timeat the sports fields and in
playing.
So, you know and I made acommitment not a bad one at all,
a great one is like I'm gonnaget involved as much as I can so
(49:55):
I tend to coach all the teams atleast assistant coach them so I
get to know my kids and theirfriends and the parents and all
that stuff. That that keeps mereally busy kind of in this era
and then my wife and I love livemusic. So we try to go as many
shows as possible that when theycome to town or we travel
sometimes for stuff too. Soactually when I was at Miami and
(50:17):
one of the things I did therewas I ran the concert board
which we were responsible forbringing shows to campus. We do
I don't know three or so's ayear which is super fun and I
learned a lot about the musicbusiness back then which is
definitely very much servicebusiness, kind of a fascinating
industry.
But yeah, love that as well butthose things kind of keep me
(50:39):
busy otherwise I'm just gonnatake a nap from time to time.
Nick Brunker (50:42):
Does that happen? I would love to
Nick Yecke (50:44):
know. Yeah, exactly. It doesn't happen often that's
for sure.
Nick Brunker (50:47):
Let's ask them. What was the biggest or most
memorable band you brought toMiami when you were there?
Nick Yecke (50:53):
Oh, it's a good Well, we brought Bob Dylan
twice, which was bizarre. Nice.I don't know why we had
Nick Brunker (50:58):
him Did you work with his people directly? Like,
were you heavily involved inthat?
Nick Yecke (51:03):
Bob wasn't though. Bob usually so you know, there's
like the lore of the green room,right? Yes. The musicians, they
tear up the green room orwhatever, and you gotta get
green M and M's or whatever,blue M and M's or take out the
red ones. And that was the casefor some, like we had widespread
panic there, Bush and Moby,mean, think Yeah, likewise.
(51:25):
Back then. Those guys hung out,they were around a bit more so
we could we saw them. But Bobstayed on his bus until he went
on stage walked off stage wentback on his bus and got out of
it.
Nick Brunker (51:36):
Sounds about right.
Nick Yecke (51:37):
Not a lot of interacting with Bob but he put
on a couple of good shows. Wasfun just kind of fun to see the
it's crazy man, setting up thosestages, those stage hands, those
crews they have are those guysare hardcore. Do incredible work
in a very short period of timephysically and the engineering
that goes into it too. So thatwas a lot of fun. I I I miss
(52:00):
those days, but that it was agreat experience.
Nick Brunker (52:02):
And then last question before we let you go.
If you had to compare yourcoaching style to any NFL
individual NFL coach, who wouldyou liken yourself to?
Nick Yecke (52:14):
In the heat of the battle, well, football, I coach
a couple of fight footballteams, and then and we're we're
talking, like, and graders. Youshouldn't be like that. But when
you're trying to tell 5 or 6 orgraders to run a certain play on
a piece of paper and who iswhich one and I've color coded
it, I kind of turn into BillBelichick real fast. He's real
(52:37):
grumpy, right? It's just it'sit's a it's a grumpy mood going
on.
Raise my voice a little bit, butwe have a good time. It's,
that's a blast. I I really enjoycoaching football. I don't just
like the structure of it is isreally fun watching the kids.
It's hard.
It's it's a hard sport, right?These are sports for them to do,
(52:58):
but it's it's a ton of fun tosee them succeed and and learn a
bit and the amount they grow. SoI never thought I would compare
myself to Belichick, but I I doget a little little grumpy in
those in those huddles from timeto time.
Nick Brunker (53:09):
I'll admit, I thought you were gonna go Andy
Reid, but, you know, Belichickis fine. And if you're if you're
grumpy, then that that's onbrand for for mister Belichick.
I think Andy
Nick Yecke (53:16):
Reid's working with the better Andy Reid's got a
little better set of players.That's fair. They're a little
more tuned in. A little moretuned in.
Nick Brunker (53:23):
Well Let's see. Maybe we'll see what happens
with my Bengals this year, andyou could be a Zach Exactly.
Zach Taylor. We'll see. Oh, man.
It's it's been so good spendingtime with you. Incredibly
insightful deep dive as always,and it's it's great catching up
with you. Thanks for making timefor doing this. For sure.
Nick Yecke (53:37):
Well, thanks for having me. This is a blast.
Nick Brunker (53:39):
Hopefully we do it again soon. Likewise, man. And
to our listeners, you canexplore more of the thinking in
Nick Yacke's article LookingBack, Looking Forward in EXP
Magazine. We have, as mentioned,posted a link to it in the show
notes. You can also find it onvml.com, where you can also read
about our CX practice and ourapproach to the work.
We'd love to hear your feedbackon human centered. Please rate
us wherever you get yourpodcasts, including Apple,
(54:00):
Spotify, Stitcher, Amazon, andmany more. If you have a topic
idea or just wanna connect, youcan reach out to me on x at Nick
Brunker or email the show. It'shumancentered@vml.com. Thanks
again for listening.
We'll see you next time.
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