November 26, 2024 • 46 mins
Looking for a game to play over the holidays? Why not try the real world global economy? Too late, you’re already playing it!
Have you ever noticed how the most popular board games just so happen to reflect core components of our civilization? Settlers of Catan involves the extraction of raw materials. Risk is the imperialism and war between nations. Monopoly demonstrates the pitfalls of capitalism.
Now in the real world, I rarely celebrate resource extraction, imperialism, or capitalism. But the board game versions are so much fun. Maybe that’s why we’re all playing it at a global level. As horrible as the side effects of these things are, enough people are having so much fun playing.
And not just those winning. Sure, winning is awesome. But don’t count out how much fun it is to be down just enough to think if you keep trying you can get back in it. Your competitiveness takes over and you can’t put the game down.
And then for even more people, they have no choice in the matter, they have to play, even though there’s no hope for winning, they’re just trying to survive and stay in the game.
At this point, most of the world has been roped into this game of conquering, exploitation, and finance. We’re so convinced this is just normal life, most people don’t even think they’re playing a game. But unlike most board games, it doesn't come with an instruction manual. That is… until now.
In this episode, we use sociologist Immanuel Wallerstein’s seminal text, World-Systems Analysis, as our instruction manual to the game of colonization and exploitation. We explore how dominant countries rise and fall, the dance between capitalism and the state, and the unexpected truth about what real power looks like.
Join us for a deep dive into empires, markets, mafias, and everyone’s favorite Monopoly piece: the thimble. Macro-economics has never been this entertaining and fun for the whole family.
If you’d like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you enjoy your podcasts, leave us a review, and visit humannatureodyssey.com.
Join us on Patreon and get exclusive access to audio extras, writings, and notes.
CREDITS
Additional Writer ... Weslie Lechner
Voice Acting ... Patrick Boylan and Weslie Lechner
CITATIONS
World-Systems Analysis: An Introduction [book] by Immanuel Wallerstein (2004)
The Emergence of France [article] by Gabriel Fournier and John Frederick Drinkwater (2024)
The secret history of Monopoly: the capitalist board game's leftwing origins [article] by Mary Pilon (2015)
Music: Celestial Soda Pop
By: Ray Lynch
From the album: Deep Breakfast
Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI
All rights reserved.
1. Amazon: Celestial Soda Pop
https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B000QQXURI
2. iTunes:
https://music.apple.com/us/album/celestial-soda-pop/3242445?i=3242425
3. Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/track/2THDVIVytLuGX7S7UghuC1?si=20ea63807bba401f
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
All right, guys, gather around.
I got a new game for us to play.
Oh, sick. Is this going to take long?
I have an early morning tomorrow,and I want to start
Oh, come on, Wes.
It'll be fun.
Oh my God.
Is that the game?
No, actually, that's just the rulebook.
This is the game.
(00:23):
Whoa!
Here, take your pieces.
Oh. Oh, where's the thimble?
I love me the thimble. What's this piece?
Oh, that's a manifestationof one's unrealized hopes and dreams.
Yeah. I'll stick with the thimble.
All right, let's set up the board.
There's not enough room on the table.
Just clear that stuff off.
(00:45):
Top my sandwich.
Oh, you can forget about that.
This game will take all night.
could take all night.
Oh, yeah.
This looks super complicated. Oh, it is.
what's the name of this game?
World systems analysis.
You guys in Heck, yeah!
less.
(01:06):
whether I want to be or not?
That's the idea.
Welcome to Human
Nature Odyssey, a podcast exploringthe global game we're all stuck playing
and how we might start a new one beforeit's game over.
(01:27):
I'm Alex Smith.
My family loves board gamesor a board game.
(01:47):
Family. It's all about the classics,you know.
Monopoly.
Risk a ton.
And these games transform us, right?
My grandpa is Wheeling and dealingsin monopoly.
My younger siblings maniacal monologuesbefore a devastating rampage and risk.
And my otherwise mild mannered motherswearing like a sailor
(02:09):
while playing guitar.
Ever since I was little,it's been a dream of mine
to combine these board gamesand create the ultimate game.
Maybe you take a turn in Catan.
Get some resources.
Use those resources to get moretroops and risk.
And in the territories you occupy.
You build some houses and hotelsand monopoly.
(02:30):
I don't know. It's still in prototype.
But then I realized
the game already exists.
It's our global economy.
You ever noticehow the most popular board games
just so happen to reflect core componentsof our own civilization?
Catan involvesthe extraction of raw materials.
(02:52):
Risk is the imperialismand war between nations.
Monopoly was originally createdby progressive activist Elizabeth Magpie,
who's trying to demonstrate the pitfallsof capitalism, only to have her idea
ripped off by the guy who rebranded itand sold it for millions.
It's true.
Look it up now, in the real world.
(03:12):
I really celebrate resource extraction,imperialism or capitalism.
But damn,the board game versions are so much fun.
Maybe that's whywe're all playing it on a global level.
As horribleas the side effects of these things are,
enoughpeople are having so much fun playing.
And not just those winning. Like, sure.
(03:33):
Winning is awesome.
But don't count out how much fun it isto be down.
Just enough to think if you keep trying,you can get back in it.
Your competitiveness takes overand you can't put the game down.
then for even more people,they have no choice in the matter.
They have to playeven though there's no hope for winning.
They're just trying tosurvive and stay in the game.
(03:56):
At this point, most of the worldhas been roped
into this game of conquering,exploitation and finance.
We're so convincedthis is just normal life.
Most people don't even thinkthey're playing a game.
But unlike most board games,our global one
doesn't come with an instruction manual.
That is, until now.
(04:22):
Whoa!
Who's that?
That.
That's a manual. Wallerstein.
Or as I like to call him, a manual.
Bauer. Stein.
Okay.
Born in 1930,he grew up to become a sociologist,
historian and professor at ColumbiaUniversity and Suny Binghamton.
Or, as I like to call it, Suny Binghamton.
(04:43):
Oh, yeah.
This dude wrote the bookon the modern world system,
and he called it the modern world system.
Over the course of four decades,Immanuel Wallerstein
published four colossal volumeson the subject,
totaling 1623 pages.
read 1623 Oh, and he also published
(05:05):
World Systems Analysis and Introduction,which is just 90 pages.
Really easy. Short read.
That'sthe one I read Sounds like a good read.
If you Google him, you might find this
tweet from professor GraceKao, who's posing for a selfie with him.
The tweet reads With Immanuel Wallerstein.
His office is just down the hallfrom mine.
(05:27):
Hashtag world systems theory.
Grace's enthusiasm is evident on her face,
and Emmanuel was 87 years old at the time.
His receded hairline is a brilliant glowin the overexposed cell phone photo.
His smile is subtle and wise,and with age behind his squared
glasses, his eyes are a little crossed.
(05:49):
It looks like he's lookingboth east and west at once,
which makes sensebecause his viewpoint is global.
The tweet was posted on April 24th, 2019.
It has one like he diedjust a few months later.
Oh, Okay, so, Wesley.
(06:10):
So some respect.
A man has died.
So even thoughEmmanuel Wallerstein has passed,
he left behind a societal frameworkthat still speaks to our world today
and the global game we're all play.
What a legacy.
Basically, Wallersteinfelt that we have a pretty poor
(06:31):
understandingof the larger context of things.
We're so distracted by the dayto day headlines
that we have a hard time seeing the largerpatterns that are part of.
I agree with that.
And he also talks about how we usuallyseparate academic study into separate
fields like politics, economics,
sociology, or divide time into either
(06:55):
history, what's in the pastor the present, current events.
And the general attitude tends to bethat if you study history,
I don't really want to hearwhat you have to say about current events.
Go back to blowingdust off a scroll or something,
and then we divvy upcurrent events into the market.
The state and society.
(07:15):
If you want to study the market,you have to be an economist.
And if you want to study the state well,you better be a political scientist.
Whileall these different fields are important,
Wallerstein feltthat there was not enough cross dialog
because in reality,all of these things are interconnected.
This is a complex game we're playing here.
(07:35):
It includes all these areas of studyhistory, current events,
economics, politics.
We need to find a way for anthropologistsand political scientists
and sociologiststo all talk with each other.
That's what WallersteinWorld Systems Analysis is trying to do.
we going to start playing?
(07:55):
We've already been playing, man.
We've been playing our whole lives.
Yeah.
And Wallerstein doesn't
want us to just better understand the gamebecause it's fun.
He wants us to better understand the gameso that we can change it for the better.
He wrote, quote,the emergence of this mode of analysis
is a reflectionof an expression of the real protest
(08:19):
about the deepinequalities of the world system
that is so politically centralto our current times.
Oh, wait, I don't get it.
Okay. When did the game begin?
Wallerstein writes, quote, the worldin which we are now living.
The modern world system had its origins
(08:40):
in the 16th century, unquote.
So Columbus had just bumped
into the Americasand European colonization.
It's becoming a pretty big deal.
It's also towards the end of thetransition from feudalism to capitalism.
For centuries, Europehad been filled with knights and barons
and lords and peasants,and all of that's breaking down
(09:02):
and starting to become filledwith businessmen and investors.
The market and the statehave been around for a long time,
but it's during this periodthat they enter a new relationship.
But I'm getting ahead of myself.
I have a question. What is France?
Yeah.
You know France.
(09:23):
Berets, baguettes, cigarets.
we know France. It's Right?
It's a nation state.
When did France start?
Oh, I got this.
You're just googling on your phone.
1958.
Wait, Oh, that's probablywhen its current government was formed.
They call it the Fifth Republic.
The Fourth Republic started in 1946,but didn't last very long.
(09:47):
The Third Republic started in 1870.
Blah blah blah blah blah.
But France began a long before then.
According to Britannica, dot com,
the Kingdom of France was descendeddirectly from the Western
Frankish realm, ceded to Charles the Bald
in 843.
(10:07):
the Bald?
Sounds like the Western Frankish weren'tthe only ones ceding land.
Get it?
Like his hair was ceding land to his headbecause he's bald?
Yeah.
No, I get And where doesFrance begin and end?
When does it stop becoming France?
SometimesFrance crossed the English Channel.
(10:30):
Other times,France covered half of Europe.
In other times, the land that's nowFrance wasn't called France at all.
Wallerstein makes the pointthat so-called nation states
are much more fluid than their currentborders, make them seem to be
what their borders are,what their government is.
The language.
The ideologies change throughout history,
(10:53):
and rarely can one nation state existwithout another.
French history doesn't existwithout British history.
Therefore, Wallersteindoesn't think the nation state
is the most meaningful unit of measurementwhen talking about history,
especially if we're talkingabout something like
the transition from feudalismto capitalism.
(11:13):
It's not like these massive economictrends affected France, but not Britain.
France and Britainare intrinsically interlinked,
and so are all the nation states,
cultures and peoples they interact with.
Especially is the processof globalization continued and continues?
(11:33):
So this game we're
playing isn't about specific countries.
It's about a whole world system.
And a world systemis The official Wallerstein
definition of world systemis, quote, a spatial slash temporal zone
which cuts across many politicaland cultural units,
(11:54):
one that represents and integratesthat zone of activity and institutions
which obey certain systemic rules,unquote.
Our modern world system consists of 195different countries with thousands
of different languages spoken, all engagedin an integrated economic system
(12:15):
with a widely sharedunderstanding around money,
property and laws.
it's everybody it's not just the Right.
Well, almost everybody.
besides, like uncontactedtribes on remote islands Yeah, exactly.
They're not playing the same game.
We're basically talking about any countrythat engages in the capitalist system.
(12:39):
Like, if you could give someone moneyto buy something, then sorry,
you're part of a now.
diabolical,But just because our world system
now includes most of the world,a world system doesn't have to.
What do you mean?
Well, Wallerstein says there have beenother world systems throughout history.
(13:00):
They haven't covered the whole world,but they were mostly self-contained worlds
who like China,
India, Persia and the Arab world.
Up until the 19th century.
He sees them as distinct historical worldsystems.
Quote.
All these zones had certaincommon characteristics
(13:20):
writing a dominant languagewhich was used in the writing
and a single dominantworld religion, unquote.
And Wallersteintells us that a world system
is either a world economyor a world empire.
A world empire has, quote,
a single political authorityfor the whole world system, unquote.
(13:43):
The Roman Empireand ancient China are historic examples.
Wallersteingives of world empires who both controlled
many different cultures, interconnectedthrough one imperial system.
are we, a world empire or world economy?
I'm guessing we're a world economy.
There's not just one empire.Yeah, exactly.
(14:06):
Our modern world system is a worldeconomy,
and world economies are nothing new.
Throughout history, there's been tradebetween nations, but up until now.
Wallerstein explains that quote,since world economies lacked the unifying
cement of an overall political structureor homogenous culture, unquote,
(14:28):
they've either collapsedor turned into empires.
That's because world economiesrarely survive for long, usually,
the most powerful country transformsthe world economy into a world empire.
Well, hasn't our world system had empires?
Like what about the British Empire?
That's true.
(14:49):
Our modern world system has certainly seenits fair
share of empiresat the height of their empire.
The tiny little British Islescolonized 24% of land on planet Earth, one
quarter of the land in the entire worldhad been claimed by the British.
During the peak of the Empire, 23%
of the people onthis planet were subjects.
(15:12):
And that was just the British Empire.
Very few places on the planetwere not conquered and colonized
by the British, Dutch,Spanish, Portuguese or French.
But Wallerstein wouldn't considerthe British Empire a world empire.
In fact, Wallerstein explainsthat there have only been several
(15:34):
serious attempts to createsuch a world empire
in the last 500 years, unquote.
The examples he gives are Charlesthe Fifth,
Napoleon and Hitler.
And that's it.
They're the only ones who triedto turn the world economy into a
Yeah, that'show Wallerstein understands that anyway,
(15:55):
because the British and the Dutchand the Spanish, etc.
weren't transforming the world economyinto something else.
They were just dominating it.
And unlike all other world systemsthat have come before us,
our world system has stayed a worldeconomy.
And this, whilsthe believes, is historically unique,
(16:16):
usually the state overpowers the market.
But not this time.
In the last few hundred years, the market,with all its private companies
and very wealthy owners, has become toopowerful for the state to fully control.
This was a new kind of economic system
the world hadn't quite seen before.
(16:37):
In 1776, economist Adam
Smith called it capitalism.
And the name is stuck ever since.
Oh, right. Capitalism.
You see, after a few centuries of completeand utter domination,
those European colonizersbegan to withdraw
from the statesthey occupied, sometimes voluntarily.
(17:01):
Sometimes they were forced out.
Just like Project Runway.
Sure.
Well, the United States was the firstto declare independence from the British,
but that would eventuallybe a global trend.
Since then, 65 countries around
the world have declared independencefrom the British Empire.
Over half of themin just the 1960s and 70s alone.
(17:23):
Over 1 billion people
live in a country that celebratesIndependence Day from Britain.
Oh, yeah.
I saw this meme that said, every six
days, a different country celebratesits independence from the British.
Whoa.
So, like Independence Day from the Britishis, like, one of the most popular
Yeah.
But the explains that in reality,
(17:46):
colonization didn't really end.
It just transformed.
Sure.
In many cases, people roseto fight off their colonizer.
And there was some internal pressureto end colonization as well.
But Wallerstein arguesthat the main factor that led to
the end of colonization was because,economically speaking,
(18:07):
it just wasn't the most efficientway to exploit people.
Diabolical Wallerstein writes,
quote, plunder is self liquidating.
It is the case of killing the goosethat lays the golden eggs,
unquote, from the capitalist perspective.
Colonizationisn't the most cost effective strategy.
(18:31):
For example, at the height of the FrenchEmpire, they had about 80 colonies
around the world,from Africa to North America to Asia.
And sure,
the French made a lot of money, but damndid they have to spend a lot of money too.
France had to pay for those coloniesinfrastructure, their defenses.
Yeah, yeah.
If you're a powerful country, it'sso much cheaper to have the people
(18:54):
you're exploiting run their own countryand instead engage in trade with you.
The beautiful, absolutely flawlessand wonderful economic system
we call capitalism is crucial to our worldsystem.
Capitalism is the glue that holdsour world system together.
It's our bread and butterand those tiny little ketchup packets
(19:15):
that don't make any sensebecause they're way too small.
And even thougheverybody always needs like 3 or 4,
they don't make the ketchup packetsany bigger because capitalism.
Wallerstein explains that
capitalism isn't just dude selling thingsor people working for wages.
That ain't nothing new.
That's been happeningfor thousands of years.
But unlike all the economiesthat came before, capitalism, quote,
(19:40):
prioritizes the endless accumulation
of capital, unquote, over anything else.
This was new, and it's been going great.
Yeah.
So In a true capitalist system,
building capital aka making more moneyis the only thing that matters.
In this sense,capitalism is anti-authoritarian.
(20:04):
A dictator would make decisionsfor a whole number of reasons,
like celebrating themselvesor enforcing their own power.
But capitalism doesn't careabout the king's fancy statues.
Whatever, man. Just make more money.
And capitalismdoesn't want there to be just one empire.
Capitalism requiresmultiple independent states to function.
(20:24):
And for capitalism to thrive,those independent states have to compete.
The system doesn't carewho wins or who loses
because at the end of the day,capitalism is always the real winner.
So basically the house always winsand in this case the house is capitalism.
Wait, so why would I play this gameif capitalism is just going to win
(20:44):
every time?
Oh don't worry. That doesn't mean
you can't still absolutely dominatewhile playing the game.
What about communist countries?
Like where did the Soviet Union fitinto this Well, Wallerstein
actually saw communist countriesas part of the world system.
Sure, the Soviet Union was hypotheticallytrying to get out and do their own thing.
It never really did.
(21:04):
That's how powerful market forces became.
All right.
Quick. Just off the top of your head.
What are two things that go well together?
Peanut butter and jelly.
Salt and pepper. Nice.
How about the first worldand the third world?
Come on, that one's not as fun.
No, it's not.
The assumption around economicdevelopment has long been that over time.
(21:27):
The, quote unquote, third world countries,the poorer countries
will gain with the so-called first worldcountries have.
And we'll all be rich.
a feeling there's a butt coming.
A big one, Wallerstein asks, but
is that inevitable?
Will poorer countries get rich if theydevelop the same way rich countries did?
(21:48):
If we just keep trading enough,will we all one day be wealthy?
Wallerstein didn't think so.
He credits Argentinian economist Raulfor pointing out that, quote,
international trade was not a tradebetween equals.
Some countries were strongereconomically than others,
and were therefore able to trade on termsthat allowed surplus value to flow
(22:10):
from the weaker countries to the core,unquote.
Rubbishes critique went thatthese developed countries
are developedat the expense of the poorer countries.
He argued that they're only richbecause others are poor.
Oh, dang. Die. Gotta find a
(22:30):
Other scholars from the so-called ThirdWorld agreed
and believed more accurate termswould be core and periphery.
Core and periphery.
Yeah.
When Wildstein wrote about world systemsanalysis, he said the United States,
Japan, Germany, the UK, Francewere all examples of core countries.
Most of eastern Europe,the Middle East and countries in Africa
(22:53):
could be considered periphery.
Is that just a nicer way of sayingrich Well, Wallerstein thought the key
difference was that, quote, coreperiphery is a relational concept,
not a pair of terms that have separateessential meanings, unquote.
Core and periphery only exist
in relation to the other periphery.
(23:15):
Countriesprovide cheap labor and raw materials.
Core countries receive the benefitsof that cheap labor and raw materials,
and conveniently turned that into wealthfor the core country.
Don't worry, it's not totally unequal.
Core countries give back all sortsof nice things to periphery countries,
like loans with high interest ratesand an occasional military presence.
(23:36):
on core.
just sounds like a fancy wayto say some countries are cheating.
It's not cheating if you're the onewinning, you get to make the rules.
Sounds fair to me?
Okay, let's roll these dice.
Finally. We're actually playing.
Well, first we're figuring out whois core and who is periphery.
Like he dies.
Daddy needs a new parachute core.
(23:58):
Booyah! I'm core.
We love that for me.
Okay, your turn.
Let's see what I get.
Oh, no.
What do you roll?
Periphery.
Oh what's that I rolled periphery.
Well, don't worry, West,I'm sure that'll be fun to.
Yeah.
(24:19):
All right, guys.
And now it's timeto spin the wheel of industry.
Oh, should we drum roll?
Just spin it.
Okay.
Cellular communication
Oh, nice. That's a good one.
Okay,I'll place these pieces on the board.
(24:42):
And what are Now,these are multinational corporations.
Pat's a core country, so he gets halfless his periphery, so she gets half.
corporations go to both countries.
That's why they're called multi national.
Yes, but they operate very differentlyin each country.
The corporations are going to take cheaplabor and raw materials from us.
(25:03):
Great.
And then Patrick can turn theminto high profit consumption goods.
right. Okay. Like smartphones.
Okay, Pat, you're the core country.
So you're going to bewhere the phones are designed.
You're in charge of the software.
The circuit boards, all that fancy stuff.
So it And West,you're a periphery country,
so you're going to be with a copperand cobalt.
(25:25):
Mines are set up Yay!
I'm going to be honest with you guys,I don't actually know what cobalt
and you don't need to just keep working onthat sleek design for the new phones,
big guy.
Oh, sorry, West.
Looks like some of the coppersulfide has gotten into your aquifer.
That's going to poison your drinkingwater.
Jesus.
Oh, sorry.
Was that sucks.
(25:46):
I'm still going to needthat copper, though.
Thank you.
When do I get to be moreIt might not be for a while.
Once this core peripherypattern is established,
it can be pretty hardto break. game sucks.
If you're already winning,you keep winning more.
I thought capitalism was the winner.
Well, yes and yes.
(26:07):
But while it can be very difficultto change your country's
core periphery status,it's not impossible.
Wallerstein classified some countries,like China,
India and Brazilas semi periphery over time.
They may even become core.
do you do it?
How do you become Well, as Wallersteinsays, quote,
(26:30):
semi peripheral statesprotect their production processes
from the competition of strongerfirms outside
while trying to improvethe efficiency of the firms inside
so as to compete better in the worldmarket, unquote.
So you can subsidize local industry,limit imports from foreign competitors,
(26:50):
make your economy more efficient,but you're going to have to compete
with all the other semi periphery statestrying to become core, too.
good.
Likewise And it's also possible for corecountries to get relegated to periphery.
Back in the day,Portugal was a core country,
a major global power going aroundcolonizing all over the place.
(27:11):
But today it's a periphery country. what?
No, but I don't want to be peripheral.
I like being core.
I want to be core forever.
I'm sorry, Pat,but that's not how the game works.
Everybody's got to take turns eventually.
Those are the rules.
Screw that.I don't care what the rules are.
(27:31):
I mean, I make my own Well,okay, there is a way to do that.
Yeah.
Tell me, tell me Okay.
Okay.
Sheesh.
There's a way oneplayer can dominate the world economy
without becoming an empire.
And that's by becoming a hedge moneyhedge of Germany.
(27:52):
I never now pronounce it.
It's hegemony, I think.
Yeah, hegemonic sounds like a Pokemon.
So, what's a hegemony?
Germany allows youto exert your dominance over everyone else
without needinga united political authority.
In the 1600s,the Netherlands had a hegemony.
(28:15):
The British had a hegemony from the 1700sall the way till World War one.
And then the United Stateshas had one since.
And what does it do exactly?
Asking for a friend.
A hegemony is essentially capitalism'sversion of empire.
It's subtler than a classic empire.
(28:35):
By keeping the game interestingjust enough that everyone participates
without you constantly forcing them to,but also by bending the rules just enough
so that you can ensure you keep your coredominance.
Wallerstein tells us a new hegemonyusually emerges
after a prolonged major war that involvesall countries in the world system.
(28:59):
Like how the 30 Years War in the 1600sled to the Dutch
becoming a hegemonic superpowerfor a while,
or how the world wars helpedset the stage for U.S.
dominance. start a major war?
You know, also asking for a Oh,there's plenty of ways.
As part of the fun.
my God.
Usually, a core country leadsan alliance of other core countries
(29:21):
against a country attemptingto build a world empire and emerges
from the global rubble, having craftedmany of the new global rules.
The game will be played by.
finally have my head. Germany.
Oh, wonderful. But.
Oh, no, there's a there's a but.
There's something that's keyto all of Wallerstein
(29:42):
observations around world systemsanalysis.
Nothing lasts forever.
Everything has a lifespan,
even a major Germany.
No. Not mine.
I'll never let my hegemonic go.
Oh, what do I gottado? Spend more money on my military?
Fine, I'll do it.
Half my GDP, right to defense.
(30:05):
Well, exactly.
That's why hegemony Germany'sare inherently self-destructive.
To become a hegemony,you have to be economically efficient.
But to maintain hegemony, you have tospend money on politics in the military.
Keeping your hegemony is expensive.
Eventually, another state will become more
(30:26):
economically efficient than you,and you'll lose your hegemony.
that is diabolical.
You can kind of see this in modern Japan.
The rules made after World War two don'tallow Japan to have its own army.
Basically, the U.S.
was like, well, isn't Japan we can't trustyou have an army.
Because last time you had one.
(30:48):
Oh, boy, did you cause trouble.
We'll take care of your defense.
And so Japan just put all of its resourcesinto technology and its economy.
So in a sense, this is a pretty sweetsituation for Japan.
They don't have to spend moneyon their military and instead
they get to spend all their moneyinvesting in their own wealth.
But the downside isthey don't set the rules of the game.
(31:12):
That's why we're seeing a growing callon Japan to have their own military again,
even though that would set them backeconomically.
It's still a temptation.
French President
Emmanuel Macronhas been arguing for this, too.
He doesn't want to trust the United Stateswith Europe's defenses anymore,
even if it means that Europeanswill have to divert a lot of their wealth
(31:33):
to their own militaries.
So you can see what Wallerstein saying
about the life of a hegemony at play.
There's a pointwhere all your wealth tempts you
into spending it on your military.
So you can set the rules,but that also makes you economically
less efficient, and you slowly loseboth your wealth and your influence.
(31:54):
So even if you create a hegemonyto hold on
to being a core countrya little longer, you're hegemony
by the very nature of being a hegemonywill slowly atrophy and weaken the market.
We'll move on.
I guess in this marketno one can be the aunjanue forever.
There will always be some hot new countryvying for top billing.
(32:15):
Well, then, screw the market.
Well, I'm not so sure you want to do that.
And our modern world systemstates need the market.
We talked earlierhow at the dawn of our modern world
system, the marketand the state entered a new relationship.
For thousands of years,the government had the real power.
It was the nobles, the aristocracy.
(32:37):
At times the church.
Those are the ones who ruled.
The traderswho made a fortune in the market.
Sure, they were wealthy,maybe even influential in society.
But they did not hold actual power.
But as capitalism evolved, this changed,
and the market as a civilizational force
became much more powerful.
(32:58):
Aristocracies and nobleslost their undisputed grip on power
and were forced to sharewith a wealthy new class of businessmen.
Many revolutions aroundthe world were fought over exactly this.
The American Revolution, for example.
Sure.
On one hand, it was about freedomand the liberty for all.
But it could also be viewedas a new class of wealthy businessman
(33:22):
who had wanted political power,even though they weren't born to royalty.
ThomasJefferson and George Washington were like,
hey, I know I'm not royalty,but I got a lot of money
from slavery and I feel likeI should have some real power.
So the growing capitalist market changed
the very nature of the countriesit operated in.
Fine.
I don't even want to be a country.
(33:44):
Countries are so lame.
I want to be a corporation.
The marketswhere it's sat down with the state.
Well, here's the interesting thing.
You really got to look closely at the fineprint on the back of the box
to see this.
In capitalism,
the state and the marketare inherently intertwined.
(34:05):
They are.
I can see thatYeah, the market and the state are often
thought of as two opposing entities.
That's essentially what the whole Cold
War beef between communismand capitalism was about.
The US thought the market should leadthe Soviet Union
thought the state should lead USpresident and capitalism
(34:26):
lover Ronald Reaganloved paraphrasing the old quote.
The government that governs bestis the one that governs least.
That's a terrible impression.
But he was essentially saying,
come on, government, get out of the wayand let the free market do its thing.
The communists, on the other hand,thought the market
was something the state needed to exerttotal control over.
So which is a free marketor a strong state in reality?
(34:50):
While Stein emphasized it's a false
the economy and our world system,
the market in the state, work together.
Capitalistsactually benefit from government
interference regardless of what they say.
The wealthy 1% don't want a free market.
They don't.
They do not.
(35:11):
For example, say you own a dogfood company called Chimps Chow.
As the CEO, CFO, CEO and CTO of ChimpsChow,
you naturally want to make as much moneyas possible.
In fact, it is your fiduciaryresponsibility to do so.
Make lots of moneyand eliminate the competition.
(35:33):
Screw those guys over at PupsProtein and Dynamic Doggo.
Well, turns out the folks down at PupsProtein and Dynamic Doggo
want to makeas much money as possible too.
So you all have an ideayou can just merge into one company
and have a total monopoly on the dogfood market.
If any mom and pop pop shop shows up,you can just upsell them out of business.
(35:55):
Everyone's happy, right?
Well, not everyone is happyand small businesses are totally screwed.
Who cares about them,Well, the problem is, once
there's a total monopoly like this,there's no longer any competition.
And it ain't a free market.
So a monopoly doesn't want the governmentto get out of the way.
They just want the governmentto be on their side
(36:17):
by issuing patents and forcing copyrightinfringement laws,
restricting imports and exports,and offering subsidies.
In reality, capitalismisn't opposed to the state at all.
Capitalism doesn't think the governmentthat governs best governs least.
No, capitalismthinks the government that governs best
(36:37):
is the one that governs on its behalf.
sense.
Plus all the ways companiesdepend on the state to externalize costs
like clean up their toxic waste or buildall the roads and bridges they use.
Totally.
Capitalism uses the state as its tool.
tool in more ways than one.
Very Yes, your tool,but hopefully a strong tool.
(37:00):
Let's saywas who's now a semi periphery country.
Finally.
When did that Let's say Westwon't trade resources
with a powerful multinational corporation.
Well, the corporation sure wouldn't mindif a certain core country invaded West
and made them tradeideally at a price that they would prefer.
can do that. Oh, happens all the time.
(37:22):
Throughout the Cold War,whenever there'd be a country that elected
a socialist leaderor was about to elect a socialist leader
whose goal was to nationalize industriesand make them produce for their own
people versus exporting stuffto the United States.
The CIA would go inand either arm counter-revolutionaries
or just simply assassinate the socialistleaders, politicians and capitalists.
(37:45):
Of course, countries can pretendthey're in conflict all they want,
but it's not a conflict, it's a dance.
And as long as they're makingas much money as possible,
both dancepartners are absolutely boogying.
All right.
We've been at it for a long time.
You guys ready to edit PowerPoints? Ready.
Sorry was it's not even going to be close.
(38:09):
What are PowerPoints?
It's a good question.
What is power?
If you were to visit a foreign countryand try and figure out
who the most powerful person was,how would you do it?
Would you go knocking door to doorasking to see everyone's biceps?
Is the guy with 700 gunsin his underground bunker
(38:30):
with enough ammo to swim in,like a gun themed Chuck E cheese ball pit?
Is that guy the most powerful?
Well, one would say no
power is actually taxes taxes,what's his right.
Wallerstein explains that real power is.
ability to collectCan you successfully tax your population?
(38:54):
Oh, for sure.
I mean, do you guys seethe size of my paramilitary?
I've got all of my thugsgoing door to door, making
sure punks pay upand then people don't want to pay.
I'm going to Oh, no. Pat.
Then I've got bad news.
mean?
I can collect taxeswithout even using violence.
What?
How Oh, that's good news.
(39:16):
While sting would say that's real power.
get it.
The people are justvoluntarily paying you taxes.
And there's different ways to do this.
In some cases, people can see thattheir taxes are benefiting them.
So they're perfectly willing to contributeto the societal pocketbook.
Oh, no.
My people don't want to pay taxes,but they're paying even without violence.
(39:38):
Whoa.
Check out this bureaucracy was created.
It is elaborate.
I don't need to use violence.
I'll just make people's livesa bureaucratic living.
Hell if they don't pay.
How is this possible?
It's like how you pay your taxesto the US government
because you know,they can screw you over in the future.
You have no doubt.
(39:58):
You know,the IRS is not going to forget about you.
Nobody thinks thatthe IRS is going to be like,
oh, we totally forgot about thatguy's taxes.
We know the IRS has a comprehensive systemdesigned to never forget about you.
Now, of course, a powerful state
can use violence,but it rarely has to come to that.
(40:19):
There's so many effective steps,like fines or jail time,
that deter peoplefrom ever getting to that point. man.
So my thugs were a bad idea.
Thugs are for broke ass states.
That's some real periphery behavioryou're exhibiting.
It's true.
Wallerstein explains that briberyand corruption are signs of a weak state.
(40:41):
You generally gain moneythrough corruption
only when you can't gain itthrough a productive economy.
My economy?
And that kind of weakness usually leadsto the decentralization of power
when the state is less powerful,or your friendly neighborhood
bully tends to show up and take powerwhere the state is unable to.
Wallerstein writes, quote, weakness
(41:03):
means the relative strength of localnotables, barons, warlords
who are able to enforce their controlover non-state regions
by control of some local military forces,unquote.
The same is true of gangs and mafias.
Picture Tony Soprano walking outto get the paper in his bathrobe,
(41:24):
or spending time with those cute littleducks in his backyard swimming pool.
Mafias growin the cracks of weak state concrete.
But the interesting thingis that in a weak state,
the Mafia's greatest danger is themselves.
Wallerstein explains why, quote,
mafias are basically predators
(41:44):
that feed on the productionprocess, unquote.
Mafias see a part of the economythat the state doesn't control,
usually because it's some kindof illegal product on the black market.
So the Mafia steps in and startsto control it,
which, ironically, is very dangerousto the Mafia's existence
(42:05):
because now they're playing the gameof exerting
violence and force,which is what weak states do.
Eventually,mafias realize that power comes through
legitimating their powerthrough building bureaucracy.
So outright violencedoesn't have to be used in a sense.
Mafias and gangs are unofficial statestrying to become states.
(42:27):
So if a gang or mafiais really successful,
it'll no longer be a gang or mafia.
It'll just become a state.
So this gives us an interesting insightinto what real power looks like.
It's not a fancy king with a plush purplerobe.
It's a thousand nerds in a bureaucraticoffice processing your taxes.
(42:48):
Even though King Louis the
14th of France, claimed to have absolute
power over his subjects, in realitythe power he wielded
would be nothing comparedwith the power of a modern state.
If power means the abilityto collect taxes without outright violence
and the ability to get decisionsactually carried out, unquote,
(43:11):
then Wallerstein tells us that Louisthe 14th had far less power
than, say, the primeminister of Sweden does today.
Every Swedish citizentoday has an identity number,
a file on them in some governmentbureaucracy database.
But in France, 400 years ago,there were people walking around
doing stuff where no one in the governmenteven knew their name.
(43:34):
People could slip through the cracksin 17th century France.
There are far fewer cracksto slip through today.
Our information systems have gotten muchmore sophisticated and effective.
Louis the 14th had a fancy castleand even fancier rope.
But how powerful was his statecompared to modern ones?
A lot less.
(43:56):
Sorry, Pat.
I'm going to need to take this from you.
core card.
Don't take my core card. Here you go, Wes.
You earned it.
Thank All right, Pat, your turn.
Roll the dice.
I rolled a four.
What does that mean? Yeah,it doesn't matter.
You're periphery country now.
(44:16):
You're screwed either way.
Get ready to be oppressedfor a few centuries.
What? This game sucks.
I don't want to play it anymore.
Oh, now you don't want to play the game.
Well, there is a way to try and stopplaying the game altogether.
How We gotta stop this thing.
(44:36):
Thanks for listening.
Emmanuel Wallersteinthought we were approaching
a climactic moment in the centurieslong struggle to try and stop the game.
And then the next episode of HumanNature Odyssey.
That is the story we're going to tell.
How We the People rose upand toppled monarchies around the world
(44:56):
to establish a new democratic world order,and how we've been bickering ever since.
Until next time,
I hope you'll consider how Wallersteinthese ideas map onto the world around you.
Where do you seereal power being exercised?
How does world systems analysis reframe
(45:17):
the daily news and headlines?
Hey Alex,how can I help support the podcast?
Oh, man. Thank you.
Great question.
Well, first off,if you enjoy Human Nature Odyssey,
please leave a rating and reviewwherever you listen to your podcasts
and make sure to share it with a friend.
And of course,you can also join us on the Human Nature
(45:38):
Odyssey Patreon, where you'll have accessto bonus episodes,
additional thoughts and writings,and audiobook readings.
Your support makes this podcast possible.
Thank you to BrianNori, Mark, Hanan, Maggie,
Nina, and Michael for your inputand feedback on this episode
and a very special thank you to Wesand Pat for your superb performances.
(46:01):
This episode was writtenwith Wes's help as well.
And as always, our theme music isCelestial Soda Pop by Ray Lynch.
You can find the link in our show notes.
Talk with you soon.
(50:20):
he's clear that world systems
analysis is about creating a morejust world.
We'll get into more of that in parttwo of this
two part series on world systems analysis.
There's going to be a part two.
But for now, we just need to understandhow his analysis works.
All right, guys, gather around.
I got a new game for us to play.
Oh, sick. Is this going to take long?
I have an early morning tomorrow,and I want to start
Oh, come on, Wes.
It'll be fun.
Oh my God.
Is that the game?
No, actually, that's just the rulebook.
This is the game.
(00:23):
Whoa!
Here, take your pieces.
Oh. Oh, where's the thimble?
I love me the thimble. What's this piece?
Oh, that's a manifestationof one's unrealized hopes and dreams.
Yeah. I'll stick with the thimble.
All right, let's set up the board.
There's not enough room on the table.
Just clear that stuff off.
(00:45):
Top my sandwich.
Oh, you can forget about that.
This game will take all night.
could take all night.
Oh, yeah.
This looks super complicated. Oh, it is.
what's the name of this game?
World systems analysis.
You guys in Heck, yeah!
less.
(01:06):
whether I want to be or not?
That's the idea.
Welcome to Human
Nature Odyssey, a podcast exploringthe global game we're all stuck playing
and how we might start a new one beforeit's game over.
(01:27):
I'm Alex Smith.
My family loves board gamesor a board game.
(01:47):
Family. It's all about the classics,you know.
Monopoly.
Risk a ton.
And these games transform us, right?
My grandpa is Wheeling and dealingsin monopoly.
My younger siblings maniacal monologuesbefore a devastating rampage and risk.
And my otherwise mild mannered motherswearing like a sailor
(02:09):
while playing guitar.
Ever since I was little,it's been a dream of mine
to combine these board gamesand create the ultimate game.
Maybe you take a turn in Catan.
Get some resources.
Use those resources to get moretroops and risk.
And in the territories you occupy.
You build some houses and hotelsand monopoly.
(02:30):
I don't know. It's still in prototype.
But then I realized
the game already exists.
It's our global economy.
You ever noticehow the most popular board games
just so happen to reflect core componentsof our own civilization?
Catan involvesthe extraction of raw materials.
(02:52):
Risk is the imperialismand war between nations.
Monopoly was originally createdby progressive activist Elizabeth Magpie,
who's trying to demonstrate the pitfallsof capitalism, only to have her idea
ripped off by the guy who rebranded itand sold it for millions.
It's true.
Look it up now, in the real world.
(03:12):
I really celebrate resource extraction,imperialism or capitalism.
But damn,the board game versions are so much fun.
Maybe that's whywe're all playing it on a global level.
As horribleas the side effects of these things are,
enoughpeople are having so much fun playing.
And not just those winning. Like, sure.
(03:33):
Winning is awesome.
But don't count out how much fun it isto be down.
Just enough to think if you keep trying,you can get back in it.
Your competitiveness takes overand you can't put the game down.
then for even more people,they have no choice in the matter.
They have to playeven though there's no hope for winning.
They're just trying tosurvive and stay in the game.
(03:56):
At this point, most of the worldhas been roped
into this game of conquering,exploitation and finance.
We're so convincedthis is just normal life.
Most people don't even thinkthey're playing a game.
But unlike most board games,our global one
doesn't come with an instruction manual.
That is, until now.
(04:22):
Whoa!
Who's that?
That.
That's a manual. Wallerstein.
Or as I like to call him, a manual.
Bauer. Stein.
Okay.
Born in 1930,he grew up to become a sociologist,
historian and professor at ColumbiaUniversity and Suny Binghamton.
Or, as I like to call it, Suny Binghamton.
(04:43):
Oh, yeah.
This dude wrote the bookon the modern world system,
and he called it the modern world system.
Over the course of four decades,Immanuel Wallerstein
published four colossal volumeson the subject,
totaling 1623 pages.
read 1623 Oh, and he also published
(05:05):
World Systems Analysis and Introduction,which is just 90 pages.
Really easy. Short read.
That'sthe one I read Sounds like a good read.
If you Google him, you might find this
tweet from professor GraceKao, who's posing for a selfie with him.
The tweet reads With Immanuel Wallerstein.
His office is just down the hallfrom mine.
(05:27):
Hashtag world systems theory.
Grace's enthusiasm is evident on her face,
and Emmanuel was 87 years old at the time.
His receded hairline is a brilliant glowin the overexposed cell phone photo.
His smile is subtle and wise,and with age behind his squared
glasses, his eyes are a little crossed.
(05:49):
It looks like he's lookingboth east and west at once,
which makes sensebecause his viewpoint is global.
The tweet was posted on April 24th, 2019.
It has one like he diedjust a few months later.
Oh, Okay, so, Wesley.
(06:10):
So some respect.
A man has died.
So even thoughEmmanuel Wallerstein has passed,
he left behind a societal frameworkthat still speaks to our world today
and the global game we're all play.
What a legacy.
Basically, Wallersteinfelt that we have a pretty poor
(06:31):
understandingof the larger context of things.
We're so distracted by the dayto day headlines
that we have a hard time seeing the largerpatterns that are part of.
I agree with that.
And he also talks about how we usuallyseparate academic study into separate
fields like politics, economics,
sociology, or divide time into either
(06:55):
history, what's in the pastor the present, current events.
And the general attitude tends to bethat if you study history,
I don't really want to hearwhat you have to say about current events.
Go back to blowingdust off a scroll or something,
and then we divvy upcurrent events into the market.
The state and society.
(07:15):
If you want to study the market,you have to be an economist.
And if you want to study the state well,you better be a political scientist.
Whileall these different fields are important,
Wallerstein feltthat there was not enough cross dialog
because in reality,all of these things are interconnected.
This is a complex game we're playing here.
(07:35):
It includes all these areas of studyhistory, current events,
economics, politics.
We need to find a way for anthropologistsand political scientists
and sociologiststo all talk with each other.
That's what WallersteinWorld Systems Analysis is trying to do.
we going to start playing?
(07:55):
We've already been playing, man.
We've been playing our whole lives.
Yeah.
And Wallerstein doesn't
want us to just better understand the gamebecause it's fun.
He wants us to better understand the gameso that we can change it for the better.
He wrote, quote,the emergence of this mode of analysis
is a reflectionof an expression of the real protest
(08:19):
about the deepinequalities of the world system
that is so politically centralto our current times.
Oh, wait, I don't get it.
Okay. When did the game begin?
Wallerstein writes, quote, the worldin which we are now living.
The modern world system had its origins
(08:40):
in the 16th century, unquote.
So Columbus had just bumped
into the Americasand European colonization.
It's becoming a pretty big deal.
It's also towards the end of thetransition from feudalism to capitalism.
For centuries, Europehad been filled with knights and barons
and lords and peasants,and all of that's breaking down
(09:02):
and starting to become filledwith businessmen and investors.
The market and the statehave been around for a long time,
but it's during this periodthat they enter a new relationship.
But I'm getting ahead of myself.
I have a question. What is France?
Yeah.
You know France.
(09:23):
Berets, baguettes, cigarets.
we know France. It's Right?
It's a nation state.
When did France start?
Oh, I got this.
You're just googling on your phone.
1958.
Wait, Oh, that's probablywhen its current government was formed.
They call it the Fifth Republic.
The Fourth Republic started in 1946,but didn't last very long.
(09:47):
The Third Republic started in 1870.
Blah blah blah blah blah.
But France began a long before then.
According to Britannica, dot com,
the Kingdom of France was descendeddirectly from the Western
Frankish realm, ceded to Charles the Bald
in 843.
(10:07):
the Bald?
Sounds like the Western Frankish weren'tthe only ones ceding land.
Get it?
Like his hair was ceding land to his headbecause he's bald?
Yeah.
No, I get And where doesFrance begin and end?
When does it stop becoming France?
SometimesFrance crossed the English Channel.
(10:30):
Other times,France covered half of Europe.
In other times, the land that's nowFrance wasn't called France at all.
Wallerstein makes the pointthat so-called nation states
are much more fluid than their currentborders, make them seem to be
what their borders are,what their government is.
The language.
The ideologies change throughout history,
(10:53):
and rarely can one nation state existwithout another.
French history doesn't existwithout British history.
Therefore, Wallersteindoesn't think the nation state
is the most meaningful unit of measurementwhen talking about history,
especially if we're talkingabout something like
the transition from feudalismto capitalism.
(11:13):
It's not like these massive economictrends affected France, but not Britain.
France and Britainare intrinsically interlinked,
and so are all the nation states,
cultures and peoples they interact with.
Especially is the processof globalization continued and continues?
(11:33):
So this game we're
playing isn't about specific countries.
It's about a whole world system.
And a world systemis The official Wallerstein
definition of world systemis, quote, a spatial slash temporal zone
which cuts across many politicaland cultural units,
(11:54):
one that represents and integratesthat zone of activity and institutions
which obey certain systemic rules,unquote.
Our modern world system consists of 195different countries with thousands
of different languages spoken, all engagedin an integrated economic system
(12:15):
with a widely sharedunderstanding around money,
property and laws.
it's everybody it's not just the Right.
Well, almost everybody.
besides, like uncontactedtribes on remote islands Yeah, exactly.
They're not playing the same game.
We're basically talking about any countrythat engages in the capitalist system.
(12:39):
Like, if you could give someone moneyto buy something, then sorry,
you're part of a now.
diabolical,But just because our world system
now includes most of the world,a world system doesn't have to.
What do you mean?
Well, Wallerstein says there have beenother world systems throughout history.
(13:00):
They haven't covered the whole world,but they were mostly self-contained worlds
who like China,
India, Persia and the Arab world.
Up until the 19th century.
He sees them as distinct historical worldsystems.
Quote.
All these zones had certaincommon characteristics
(13:20):
writing a dominant languagewhich was used in the writing
and a single dominantworld religion, unquote.
And Wallersteintells us that a world system
is either a world economyor a world empire.
A world empire has, quote,
a single political authorityfor the whole world system, unquote.
(13:43):
The Roman Empireand ancient China are historic examples.
Wallersteingives of world empires who both controlled
many different cultures, interconnectedthrough one imperial system.
are we, a world empire or world economy?
I'm guessing we're a world economy.
There's not just one empire.Yeah, exactly.
(14:06):
Our modern world system is a worldeconomy,
and world economies are nothing new.
Throughout history, there's been tradebetween nations, but up until now.
Wallerstein explains that quote,since world economies lacked the unifying
cement of an overall political structureor homogenous culture, unquote,
(14:28):
they've either collapsedor turned into empires.
That's because world economiesrarely survive for long, usually,
the most powerful country transformsthe world economy into a world empire.
Well, hasn't our world system had empires?
Like what about the British Empire?
That's true.
(14:49):
Our modern world system has certainly seenits fair
share of empiresat the height of their empire.
The tiny little British Islescolonized 24% of land on planet Earth, one
quarter of the land in the entire worldhad been claimed by the British.
During the peak of the Empire, 23%
of the people onthis planet were subjects.
(15:12):
And that was just the British Empire.
Very few places on the planetwere not conquered and colonized
by the British, Dutch,Spanish, Portuguese or French.
But Wallerstein wouldn't considerthe British Empire a world empire.
In fact, Wallerstein explainsthat there have only been several
(15:34):
serious attempts to createsuch a world empire
in the last 500 years, unquote.
The examples he gives are Charlesthe Fifth,
Napoleon and Hitler.
And that's it.
They're the only ones who triedto turn the world economy into a
Yeah, that'show Wallerstein understands that anyway,
(15:55):
because the British and the Dutchand the Spanish, etc.
weren't transforming the world economyinto something else.
They were just dominating it.
And unlike all other world systemsthat have come before us,
our world system has stayed a worldeconomy.
And this, whilsthe believes, is historically unique,
(16:16):
usually the state overpowers the market.
But not this time.
In the last few hundred years, the market,with all its private companies
and very wealthy owners, has become toopowerful for the state to fully control.
This was a new kind of economic system
the world hadn't quite seen before.
(16:37):
In 1776, economist Adam
Smith called it capitalism.
And the name is stuck ever since.
Oh, right. Capitalism.
You see, after a few centuries of completeand utter domination,
those European colonizersbegan to withdraw
from the statesthey occupied, sometimes voluntarily.
(17:01):
Sometimes they were forced out.
Just like Project Runway.
Sure.
Well, the United States was the firstto declare independence from the British,
but that would eventuallybe a global trend.
Since then, 65 countries around
the world have declared independencefrom the British Empire.
Over half of themin just the 1960s and 70s alone.
(17:23):
Over 1 billion people
live in a country that celebratesIndependence Day from Britain.
Oh, yeah.
I saw this meme that said, every six
days, a different country celebratesits independence from the British.
Whoa.
So, like Independence Day from the Britishis, like, one of the most popular
Yeah.
But the explains that in reality,
(17:46):
colonization didn't really end.
It just transformed.
Sure.
In many cases, people roseto fight off their colonizer.
And there was some internal pressureto end colonization as well.
But Wallerstein arguesthat the main factor that led to
the end of colonization was because,economically speaking,
(18:07):
it just wasn't the most efficientway to exploit people.
Diabolical Wallerstein writes,
quote, plunder is self liquidating.
It is the case of killing the goosethat lays the golden eggs,
unquote, from the capitalist perspective.
Colonizationisn't the most cost effective strategy.
(18:31):
For example, at the height of the FrenchEmpire, they had about 80 colonies
around the world,from Africa to North America to Asia.
And sure,
the French made a lot of money, but damndid they have to spend a lot of money too.
France had to pay for those coloniesinfrastructure, their defenses.
Yeah, yeah.
If you're a powerful country, it'sso much cheaper to have the people
(18:54):
you're exploiting run their own countryand instead engage in trade with you.
The beautiful, absolutely flawlessand wonderful economic system
we call capitalism is crucial to our worldsystem.
Capitalism is the glue that holdsour world system together.
It's our bread and butterand those tiny little ketchup packets
(19:15):
that don't make any sensebecause they're way too small.
And even thougheverybody always needs like 3 or 4,
they don't make the ketchup packetsany bigger because capitalism.
Wallerstein explains that
capitalism isn't just dude selling thingsor people working for wages.
That ain't nothing new.
That's been happeningfor thousands of years.
But unlike all the economiesthat came before, capitalism, quote,
(19:40):
prioritizes the endless accumulation
of capital, unquote, over anything else.
This was new, and it's been going great.
Yeah.
So In a true capitalist system,
building capital aka making more moneyis the only thing that matters.
In this sense,capitalism is anti-authoritarian.
(20:04):
A dictator would make decisionsfor a whole number of reasons,
like celebrating themselvesor enforcing their own power.
But capitalism doesn't careabout the king's fancy statues.
Whatever, man. Just make more money.
And capitalismdoesn't want there to be just one empire.
Capitalism requiresmultiple independent states to function.
(20:24):
And for capitalism to thrive,those independent states have to compete.
The system doesn't carewho wins or who loses
because at the end of the day,capitalism is always the real winner.
So basically the house always winsand in this case the house is capitalism.
Wait, so why would I play this gameif capitalism is just going to win
(20:44):
every time?
Oh don't worry. That doesn't mean
you can't still absolutely dominatewhile playing the game.
What about communist countries?
Like where did the Soviet Union fitinto this Well, Wallerstein
actually saw communist countriesas part of the world system.
Sure, the Soviet Union was hypotheticallytrying to get out and do their own thing.
It never really did.
(21:04):
That's how powerful market forces became.
All right.
Quick. Just off the top of your head.
What are two things that go well together?
Peanut butter and jelly.
Salt and pepper. Nice.
How about the first worldand the third world?
Come on, that one's not as fun.
No, it's not.
The assumption around economicdevelopment has long been that over time.
(21:27):
The, quote unquote, third world countries,the poorer countries
will gain with the so-called first worldcountries have.
And we'll all be rich.
a feeling there's a butt coming.
A big one, Wallerstein asks, but
is that inevitable?
Will poorer countries get rich if theydevelop the same way rich countries did?
(21:48):
If we just keep trading enough,will we all one day be wealthy?
Wallerstein didn't think so.
He credits Argentinian economist Raulfor pointing out that, quote,
international trade was not a tradebetween equals.
Some countries were strongereconomically than others,
and were therefore able to trade on termsthat allowed surplus value to flow
(22:10):
from the weaker countries to the core,unquote.
Rubbishes critique went thatthese developed countries
are developedat the expense of the poorer countries.
He argued that they're only richbecause others are poor.
Oh, dang. Die. Gotta find a
(22:30):
Other scholars from the so-called ThirdWorld agreed
and believed more accurate termswould be core and periphery.
Core and periphery.
Yeah.
When Wildstein wrote about world systemsanalysis, he said the United States,
Japan, Germany, the UK, Francewere all examples of core countries.
Most of eastern Europe,the Middle East and countries in Africa
(22:53):
could be considered periphery.
Is that just a nicer way of sayingrich Well, Wallerstein thought the key
difference was that, quote, coreperiphery is a relational concept,
not a pair of terms that have separateessential meanings, unquote.
Core and periphery only exist
in relation to the other periphery.
(23:15):
Countriesprovide cheap labor and raw materials.
Core countries receive the benefitsof that cheap labor and raw materials,
and conveniently turned that into wealthfor the core country.
Don't worry, it's not totally unequal.
Core countries give back all sortsof nice things to periphery countries,
like loans with high interest ratesand an occasional military presence.
(23:36):
on core.
just sounds like a fancy wayto say some countries are cheating.
It's not cheating if you're the onewinning, you get to make the rules.
Sounds fair to me?
Okay, let's roll these dice.
Finally. We're actually playing.
Well, first we're figuring out whois core and who is periphery.
Like he dies.
Daddy needs a new parachute core.
(23:58):
Booyah! I'm core.
We love that for me.
Okay, your turn.
Let's see what I get.
Oh, no.
What do you roll?
Periphery.
Oh what's that I rolled periphery.
Well, don't worry, West,I'm sure that'll be fun to.
Yeah.
(24:19):
All right, guys.
And now it's timeto spin the wheel of industry.
Oh, should we drum roll?
Just spin it.
Okay.
Cellular communication
Oh, nice. That's a good one.
Okay,I'll place these pieces on the board.
(24:42):
And what are Now,these are multinational corporations.
Pat's a core country, so he gets halfless his periphery, so she gets half.
corporations go to both countries.
That's why they're called multi national.
Yes, but they operate very differentlyin each country.
The corporations are going to take cheaplabor and raw materials from us.
(25:03):
Great.
And then Patrick can turn theminto high profit consumption goods.
right. Okay. Like smartphones.
Okay, Pat, you're the core country.
So you're going to bewhere the phones are designed.
You're in charge of the software.
The circuit boards, all that fancy stuff.
So it And West,you're a periphery country,
so you're going to be with a copperand cobalt.
(25:25):
Mines are set up Yay!
I'm going to be honest with you guys,I don't actually know what cobalt
and you don't need to just keep working onthat sleek design for the new phones,
big guy.
Oh, sorry, West.
Looks like some of the coppersulfide has gotten into your aquifer.
That's going to poison your drinkingwater.
Jesus.
Oh, sorry.
Was that sucks.
(25:46):
I'm still going to needthat copper, though.
Thank you.
When do I get to be moreIt might not be for a while.
Once this core peripherypattern is established,
it can be pretty hardto break. game sucks.
If you're already winning,you keep winning more.
I thought capitalism was the winner.
Well, yes and yes.
(26:07):
But while it can be very difficultto change your country's
core periphery status,it's not impossible.
Wallerstein classified some countries,like China,
India and Brazilas semi periphery over time.
They may even become core.
do you do it?
How do you become Well, as Wallersteinsays, quote,
(26:30):
semi peripheral statesprotect their production processes
from the competition of strongerfirms outside
while trying to improvethe efficiency of the firms inside
so as to compete better in the worldmarket, unquote.
So you can subsidize local industry,limit imports from foreign competitors,
(26:50):
make your economy more efficient,but you're going to have to compete
with all the other semi periphery statestrying to become core, too.
good.
Likewise And it's also possible for corecountries to get relegated to periphery.
Back in the day,Portugal was a core country,
a major global power going aroundcolonizing all over the place.
(27:11):
But today it's a periphery country. what?
No, but I don't want to be peripheral.
I like being core.
I want to be core forever.
I'm sorry, Pat,but that's not how the game works.
Everybody's got to take turns eventually.
Those are the rules.
Screw that.I don't care what the rules are.
(27:31):
I mean, I make my own Well,okay, there is a way to do that.
Yeah.
Tell me, tell me Okay.
Okay.
Sheesh.
There's a way oneplayer can dominate the world economy
without becoming an empire.
And that's by becoming a hedge moneyhedge of Germany.
(27:52):
I never now pronounce it.
It's hegemony, I think.
Yeah, hegemonic sounds like a Pokemon.
So, what's a hegemony?
Germany allows youto exert your dominance over everyone else
without needinga united political authority.
In the 1600s,the Netherlands had a hegemony.
(28:15):
The British had a hegemony from the 1700sall the way till World War one.
And then the United Stateshas had one since.
And what does it do exactly?
Asking for a friend.
A hegemony is essentially capitalism'sversion of empire.
It's subtler than a classic empire.
(28:35):
By keeping the game interestingjust enough that everyone participates
without you constantly forcing them to,but also by bending the rules just enough
so that you can ensure you keep your coredominance.
Wallerstein tells us a new hegemonyusually emerges
after a prolonged major war that involvesall countries in the world system.
(28:59):
Like how the 30 Years War in the 1600sled to the Dutch
becoming a hegemonic superpowerfor a while,
or how the world wars helpedset the stage for U.S.
dominance. start a major war?
You know, also asking for a Oh,there's plenty of ways.
As part of the fun.
my God.
Usually, a core country leadsan alliance of other core countries
(29:21):
against a country attemptingto build a world empire and emerges
from the global rubble, having craftedmany of the new global rules.
The game will be played by.
finally have my head. Germany.
Oh, wonderful. But.
Oh, no, there's a there's a but.
There's something that's keyto all of Wallerstein
(29:42):
observations around world systemsanalysis.
Nothing lasts forever.
Everything has a lifespan,
even a major Germany.
No. Not mine.
I'll never let my hegemonic go.
Oh, what do I gottado? Spend more money on my military?
Fine, I'll do it.
Half my GDP, right to defense.
(30:05):
Well, exactly.
That's why hegemony Germany'sare inherently self-destructive.
To become a hegemony,you have to be economically efficient.
But to maintain hegemony, you have tospend money on politics in the military.
Keeping your hegemony is expensive.
Eventually, another state will become more
(30:26):
economically efficient than you,and you'll lose your hegemony.
that is diabolical.
You can kind of see this in modern Japan.
The rules made after World War two don'tallow Japan to have its own army.
Basically, the U.S.
was like, well, isn't Japan we can't trustyou have an army.
Because last time you had one.
(30:48):
Oh, boy, did you cause trouble.
We'll take care of your defense.
And so Japan just put all of its resourcesinto technology and its economy.
So in a sense, this is a pretty sweetsituation for Japan.
They don't have to spend moneyon their military and instead
they get to spend all their moneyinvesting in their own wealth.
But the downside isthey don't set the rules of the game.
(31:12):
That's why we're seeing a growing callon Japan to have their own military again,
even though that would set them backeconomically.
It's still a temptation.
French President
Emmanuel Macronhas been arguing for this, too.
He doesn't want to trust the United Stateswith Europe's defenses anymore,
even if it means that Europeanswill have to divert a lot of their wealth
(31:33):
to their own militaries.
So you can see what Wallerstein saying
about the life of a hegemony at play.
There's a pointwhere all your wealth tempts you
into spending it on your military.
So you can set the rules,but that also makes you economically
less efficient, and you slowly loseboth your wealth and your influence.
(31:54):
So even if you create a hegemonyto hold on
to being a core countrya little longer, you're hegemony
by the very nature of being a hegemonywill slowly atrophy and weaken the market.
We'll move on.
I guess in this marketno one can be the aunjanue forever.
There will always be some hot new countryvying for top billing.
(32:15):
Well, then, screw the market.
Well, I'm not so sure you want to do that.
And our modern world systemstates need the market.
We talked earlierhow at the dawn of our modern world
system, the marketand the state entered a new relationship.
For thousands of years,the government had the real power.
It was the nobles, the aristocracy.
(32:37):
At times the church.
Those are the ones who ruled.
The traderswho made a fortune in the market.
Sure, they were wealthy,maybe even influential in society.
But they did not hold actual power.
But as capitalism evolved, this changed,
and the market as a civilizational force
became much more powerful.
(32:58):
Aristocracies and nobleslost their undisputed grip on power
and were forced to sharewith a wealthy new class of businessmen.
Many revolutions aroundthe world were fought over exactly this.
The American Revolution, for example.
Sure.
On one hand, it was about freedomand the liberty for all.
But it could also be viewedas a new class of wealthy businessman
(33:22):
who had wanted political power,even though they weren't born to royalty.
ThomasJefferson and George Washington were like,
hey, I know I'm not royalty,but I got a lot of money
from slavery and I feel likeI should have some real power.
So the growing capitalist market changed
the very nature of the countriesit operated in.
Fine.
I don't even want to be a country.
(33:44):
Countries are so lame.
I want to be a corporation.
The marketswhere it's sat down with the state.
Well, here's the interesting thing.
You really got to look closely at the fineprint on the back of the box
to see this.
In capitalism,
the state and the marketare inherently intertwined.
(34:05):
They are.
I can see thatYeah, the market and the state are often
thought of as two opposing entities.
That's essentially what the whole Cold
War beef between communismand capitalism was about.
The US thought the market should leadthe Soviet Union
thought the state should lead USpresident and capitalism
(34:26):
lover Ronald Reaganloved paraphrasing the old quote.
The government that governs bestis the one that governs least.
That's a terrible impression.
But he was essentially saying,
come on, government, get out of the wayand let the free market do its thing.
The communists, on the other hand,thought the market
was something the state needed to exerttotal control over.
So which is a free marketor a strong state in reality?
(34:50):
While Stein emphasized it's a false
the economy and our world system,
the market in the state, work together.
Capitalistsactually benefit from government
interference regardless of what they say.
The wealthy 1% don't want a free market.
They don't.
They do not.
(35:11):
For example, say you own a dogfood company called Chimps Chow.
As the CEO, CFO, CEO and CTO of ChimpsChow,
you naturally want to make as much moneyas possible.
In fact, it is your fiduciaryresponsibility to do so.
Make lots of moneyand eliminate the competition.
(35:33):
Screw those guys over at PupsProtein and Dynamic Doggo.
Well, turns out the folks down at PupsProtein and Dynamic Doggo
want to makeas much money as possible too.
So you all have an ideayou can just merge into one company
and have a total monopoly on the dogfood market.
If any mom and pop pop shop shows up,you can just upsell them out of business.
(35:55):
Everyone's happy, right?
Well, not everyone is happyand small businesses are totally screwed.
Who cares about them,Well, the problem is, once
there's a total monopoly like this,there's no longer any competition.
And it ain't a free market.
So a monopoly doesn't want the governmentto get out of the way.
They just want the governmentto be on their side
(36:17):
by issuing patents and forcing copyrightinfringement laws,
restricting imports and exports,and offering subsidies.
In reality, capitalismisn't opposed to the state at all.
Capitalism doesn't think the governmentthat governs best governs least.
No, capitalismthinks the government that governs best
(36:37):
is the one that governs on its behalf.
sense.
Plus all the ways companiesdepend on the state to externalize costs
like clean up their toxic waste or buildall the roads and bridges they use.
Totally.
Capitalism uses the state as its tool.
tool in more ways than one.
Very Yes, your tool,but hopefully a strong tool.
(37:00):
Let's saywas who's now a semi periphery country.
Finally.
When did that Let's say Westwon't trade resources
with a powerful multinational corporation.
Well, the corporation sure wouldn't mindif a certain core country invaded West
and made them tradeideally at a price that they would prefer.
can do that. Oh, happens all the time.
(37:22):
Throughout the Cold War,whenever there'd be a country that elected
a socialist leaderor was about to elect a socialist leader
whose goal was to nationalize industriesand make them produce for their own
people versus exporting stuffto the United States.
The CIA would go inand either arm counter-revolutionaries
or just simply assassinate the socialistleaders, politicians and capitalists.
(37:45):
Of course, countries can pretendthey're in conflict all they want,
but it's not a conflict, it's a dance.
And as long as they're makingas much money as possible,
both dancepartners are absolutely boogying.
All right.
We've been at it for a long time.
You guys ready to edit PowerPoints? Ready.
Sorry was it's not even going to be close.
(38:09):
What are PowerPoints?
It's a good question.
What is power?
If you were to visit a foreign countryand try and figure out
who the most powerful person was,how would you do it?
Would you go knocking door to doorasking to see everyone's biceps?
Is the guy with 700 gunsin his underground bunker
(38:30):
with enough ammo to swim in,like a gun themed Chuck E cheese ball pit?
Is that guy the most powerful?
Well, one would say no
power is actually taxes taxes,what's his right.
Wallerstein explains that real power is.
ability to collectCan you successfully tax your population?
(38:54):
Oh, for sure.
I mean, do you guys seethe size of my paramilitary?
I've got all of my thugsgoing door to door, making
sure punks pay upand then people don't want to pay.
I'm going to Oh, no. Pat.
Then I've got bad news.
mean?
I can collect taxeswithout even using violence.
What?
How Oh, that's good news.
(39:16):
While sting would say that's real power.
get it.
The people are justvoluntarily paying you taxes.
And there's different ways to do this.
In some cases, people can see thattheir taxes are benefiting them.
So they're perfectly willing to contributeto the societal pocketbook.
Oh, no.
My people don't want to pay taxes,but they're paying even without violence.
(39:38):
Whoa.
Check out this bureaucracy was created.
It is elaborate.
I don't need to use violence.
I'll just make people's livesa bureaucratic living.
Hell if they don't pay.
How is this possible?
It's like how you pay your taxesto the US government
because you know,they can screw you over in the future.
You have no doubt.
(39:58):
You know,the IRS is not going to forget about you.
Nobody thinks thatthe IRS is going to be like,
oh, we totally forgot about thatguy's taxes.
We know the IRS has a comprehensive systemdesigned to never forget about you.
Now, of course, a powerful state
can use violence,but it rarely has to come to that.
(40:19):
There's so many effective steps,like fines or jail time,
that deter peoplefrom ever getting to that point. man.
So my thugs were a bad idea.
Thugs are for broke ass states.
That's some real periphery behavioryou're exhibiting.
It's true.
Wallerstein explains that briberyand corruption are signs of a weak state.
(40:41):
You generally gain moneythrough corruption
only when you can't gain itthrough a productive economy.
My economy?
And that kind of weakness usually leadsto the decentralization of power
when the state is less powerful,or your friendly neighborhood
bully tends to show up and take powerwhere the state is unable to.
Wallerstein writes, quote, weakness
(41:03):
means the relative strength of localnotables, barons, warlords
who are able to enforce their controlover non-state regions
by control of some local military forces,unquote.
The same is true of gangs and mafias.
Picture Tony Soprano walking outto get the paper in his bathrobe,
(41:24):
or spending time with those cute littleducks in his backyard swimming pool.
Mafias growin the cracks of weak state concrete.
But the interesting thingis that in a weak state,
the Mafia's greatest danger is themselves.
Wallerstein explains why, quote,
mafias are basically predators
(41:44):
that feed on the productionprocess, unquote.
Mafias see a part of the economythat the state doesn't control,
usually because it's some kindof illegal product on the black market.
So the Mafia steps in and startsto control it,
which, ironically, is very dangerousto the Mafia's existence
(42:05):
because now they're playing the gameof exerting
violence and force,which is what weak states do.
Eventually,mafias realize that power comes through
legitimating their powerthrough building bureaucracy.
So outright violencedoesn't have to be used in a sense.
Mafias and gangs are unofficial statestrying to become states.
(42:27):
So if a gang or mafiais really successful,
it'll no longer be a gang or mafia.
It'll just become a state.
So this gives us an interesting insightinto what real power looks like.
It's not a fancy king with a plush purplerobe.
It's a thousand nerds in a bureaucraticoffice processing your taxes.
(42:48):
Even though King Louis the
14th of France, claimed to have absolute
power over his subjects, in realitythe power he wielded
would be nothing comparedwith the power of a modern state.
If power means the abilityto collect taxes without outright violence
and the ability to get decisionsactually carried out, unquote,
(43:11):
then Wallerstein tells us that Louisthe 14th had far less power
than, say, the primeminister of Sweden does today.
Every Swedish citizentoday has an identity number,
a file on them in some governmentbureaucracy database.
But in France, 400 years ago,there were people walking around
doing stuff where no one in the governmenteven knew their name.
(43:34):
People could slip through the cracksin 17th century France.
There are far fewer cracksto slip through today.
Our information systems have gotten muchmore sophisticated and effective.
Louis the 14th had a fancy castleand even fancier rope.
But how powerful was his statecompared to modern ones?
A lot less.
(43:56):
Sorry, Pat.
I'm going to need to take this from you.
core card.
Don't take my core card. Here you go, Wes.
You earned it.
Thank All right, Pat, your turn.
Roll the dice.
I rolled a four.
What does that mean? Yeah,it doesn't matter.
You're periphery country now.
(44:16):
You're screwed either way.
Get ready to be oppressedfor a few centuries.
What? This game sucks.
I don't want to play it anymore.
Oh, now you don't want to play the game.
Well, there is a way to try and stopplaying the game altogether.
How We gotta stop this thing.
(44:36):
Thanks for listening.
Emmanuel Wallersteinthought we were approaching
a climactic moment in the centurieslong struggle to try and stop the game.
And then the next episode of HumanNature Odyssey.
That is the story we're going to tell.
How We the People rose upand toppled monarchies around the world
(44:56):
to establish a new democratic world order,and how we've been bickering ever since.
Until next time,
I hope you'll consider how Wallersteinthese ideas map onto the world around you.
Where do you seereal power being exercised?
How does world systems analysis reframe
(45:17):
the daily news and headlines?
Hey Alex,how can I help support the podcast?
Oh, man. Thank you.
Great question.
Well, first off,if you enjoy Human Nature Odyssey,
please leave a rating and reviewwherever you listen to your podcasts
and make sure to share it with a friend.
And of course,you can also join us on the Human Nature
(45:38):
Odyssey Patreon, where you'll have accessto bonus episodes,
additional thoughts and writings,and audiobook readings.
Your support makes this podcast possible.
Thank you to BrianNori, Mark, Hanan, Maggie,
Nina, and Michael for your inputand feedback on this episode
and a very special thank you to Wesand Pat for your superb performances.
(46:01):
This episode was writtenwith Wes's help as well.
And as always, our theme music isCelestial Soda Pop by Ray Lynch.
You can find the link in our show notes.
Talk with you soon.
(50:20):
he's clear that world systems
analysis is about creating a morejust world.
We'll get into more of that in parttwo of this
two part series on world systems analysis.
There's going to be a part two.
But for now, we just need to understandhow his analysis works.
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