November 16, 2023 • 39 mins
In this climactic culmination of the Ishmael series, we ask the question : how do we transform an entire society?
Ishmael doesn’t give us the “10 Simple Steps to Save the World” instead, he offers us a map and compass to navigate our intergenerational civilizational transformation ourselves. Where we go from here is up to us.
We’ll meet the fantastical Prince who first concocted the criminal justice system, have a final reckoning with our Taker Mythology hat, and return to the abandoned land of Ashbourne.
Thank you to Honan and Dylan for their voice acting.
CITATIONS
Ishmael by Daniel Quinn (1992)
Washington Post "Turner Prize" by David Streitfeld (1991)
creativity-found.org/ted-turner
AV Club "CNN’s doomsday video" by Sean O'Neal (2015)
Music: Celestial Soda Pop
By: Ray Lynch
From the album: Deep Breakfast
Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI
All rights reserved.
1. Amazon: Celestial Soda Pop
https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B000QQXURI
2. iTunes:
https://music.apple.com/us/album/celestial-soda-pop/3242445?i=3242425
3. Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/track/2THDVIVytLuGX7S7UghuC1?si=20ea63807bba401f
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
You and I are on
a quest of epic proportions.
Our world is facing catastrophe ona planetary scale and in need of our help.
Together, we've answered the callto adventure and left the comforts
of our peaceful villageset forth into the unknown.
And that's when we metIshmael, a telepathic gorilla
(00:23):
who showed us how our civilization is heldcaptive by a story and helped us
cross over the treacherous wall of Tigermythology.
We came into contact with the leverstraverse the Garden of Eden, studied
the wildlife and made itall the way to here where we are today.
The climactic culminationof our exploration.
(00:46):
The ideas in the novel.
Ishmael, written by author Daniel Quinn,
think it's timewe return to the place it all began.
Ashbourne.
(01:06):
Hold on.
Careful.
All right.
Let's cross the intersection
and pass through the thickets.
Remember to watch out for the thorns.
Yeah.
Just ignore the no trespassing sign.
Here we are.
Ashbourne Country Club.
It's been abandoned for years.
(01:28):
Come on, let's explore.
Check out those oak trees.
That to be, like, 200 years old.
And look.
Can you still tell this was a golf course?
The grass is as high as our waistat this point.
It's a real meadow now
and here. Oh.
Watch your step.
You see that patchwhere the tall grass is matted down?
(01:51):
That's a deer bed. I've seen them.
The deer made this.
This is where they sleep at night.
And some of the most amazing things
can only be seen over time.
This is the old country club'sprivate pool.
An artificial hole dug into the ground,
lined with concrete,filled with chlorinated water.
(02:11):
And then when Ashbourne was abandoned.
Slowly but surely, the rain washed outthe chemicals.
Algae formed at its edges.
One day I noticed there were lily pads.
The next year there are reeds
and eventually frogs.
It's funny.
We live in a culturewhere it seems like nothing happens
(02:33):
unless we force it to the streets.
Don't pay themselves.
Money doesn't grow on trees.
But look, this was a sand trap.
I watched this every day.
The moss that took hold.
The plantsthat grow up on the back of the lichen.
This is life just happening on its own.
And if we spend enough timehere, we'll see hawks and herons
(02:54):
and foxes and groundhogs
at the bottom of the hill over there.
That's where I bring my friends.
The ones who do understandwe'd sit around makeshift campfires.
My friend Mark and I started to learnhow to identify different species
and ate freely from theabundant wine berry bushes.
And the most incredible thing is
(03:15):
the whole world is this.
Buried under layers of asphalt.
It's there.
In Ashbourne, the soil shakes offthe cracked asphalt like a bad dream.
New life grows in those cracks.
And as a kid, I was confused.
Why are we resisting this?
Our culture calls this overgrownand undeveloped.
(03:35):
Few people just come out and say it.
But most times we really dobelieve nature is just a resource.
But Ashbourne showsthat the whole world can be different.
Because here it already is.
And we know that there are culturesthat live in balance for the rest of life.
Our culture could be one of them.
But as long as we're stuck in our mindset,it's only a matter of time before the
(03:56):
bulldozers will come to rip up the soiland buried in asphalt all over again.
Around the time I graduated high school.
Construction crews started mowing backthe meadow mark trees to be cut.
Even tore down one of the buildingsthat was the most fun to export.
Development like this would startand stop in fits and spurts
(04:17):
until luckily it paused for a long time.
Maybe someone in some boardroomsomewhere had to wait for
someone at some desksomewhere else to sign some form.
They were waiting onfrom some department downtown.
Who knows?It would all get done eventually.
I knew unlessone day they changed their minds
and joined us in celebrating the flowers,
(04:40):
breaking through the asphalt.
Welcome to Episodeseven of Human Nature Odyssey,
a podcast exploringhow our world is in trouble
and what the heckwe can possibly do about it.
(05:01):
I'm Alexis.
Daniel Quinn once wrote Thinkersaren't limited by what they know
(05:22):
because they can always increasewhat they know
rather,they're limited by what puzzles them
because there's no way to become curiousabout something that doesn't puzzle you.
Daniel Quinn was
born in 1935 in Omaha, Nebraska,
and as a young man, he stumbled uponmany questions that truly puzzled him.
(05:43):
Questions about human history,
mythology, civilization,and its self-destructive path.
His curiositybrought him into the hills of Kentucky
to become a Trappist monk, to Chicagoto work in education, publishing
and the deserts of New Mexicowith his wife, Renee.
Along the way,he had certain thoughts which took form
as interesting ideasand eventually he wrote, quote,
(06:07):
It seemed to meI had something worth sharing.
It would be a book devoted to explaininghow things came to be this way, unquote.
And one day it would also be a bookabout how things could be different.
But it's one thing to have an idea.
Finding a way to share it.
That would be much harder.
In 1977, he wrote the first draft,but it wasn't quite right.
(06:30):
So he wrote another and another,sometimes entire
manuscripts would be dumped in the trash,but he kept at it.
Eventually he had something that to himat least seemed publishable.
But the renowned literary agenthe sent it to did not think so.
This is the 1980s,the agent told him, not the sixties.
He sent Daniel Quinn back.
(06:51):
This response, quote,
There were days when the love and peacewere very much the by words of the times.
But today's audiences have revertedto conservatism to a good degree.
The modern reader is far more likelyto purchase a computer book or something
that offers practical advice
than a work which deals with more arcanesubject matter.
(07:11):
We simply can't see marketing the scriptprofitably in the contemporary
publishing marketplace.
Furthermore, it'salso my sad duty to have to inform you
that no amount of revision could possiblyturn this into a sellable manuscript.
The flaws in this scriptare intimately bound up in your central
underlying conceptualizations,and these make this material totally
and completely unreliable, unquote.
(07:35):
Well, shit.
What do you do with a rejection like that?
Maybe you take a break.
Worked on some other stuff, sleepin a bit later than usual for a few days.
But if this is really important to you,you'll find a way to get back at it.
And it probably helpsto have the support of a loving partner
like Daniel Quinn did.
So he got back at itand rewrote it again and again.
(07:58):
Years passed.
Each time he kept what was working and cutwhat wasn't.
Maybe this needed to be emphasized.
This needed to be explaineda different way.
In this sense, the book wasn't created.
It evolved.
But who would publish this thing?
(08:21):
Meanwhile,there was another young man named Ted,
who grew up in a wealthy familyin Ohio at the age of 24.
His father committed suicide,leaving Ted devastated
and in charge of the family business,which happened to be a billboard company.
Giant signs that get people's attentionand spread information.
(08:41):
It seems Ted had a genuine interestin this, or at least was good at it.
Ted bought a local broadcast stationand eventually
launchedthe first 24 hour cable news channel.
Ted called itthe Cable News Network or CNN.
Ted Turner now owned a full on mediaempire and amassed a great fortune.
(09:01):
But like Daniel Quinn, Ted was concerned
with the way civilizationseemed to be heading.
In fact, Teddid the producers of CNN create
a special video that would airif the world happened to come to an end?
He gathered a military marching bandto play the same hymn
they played aboard the Titanicas it was sinking.
But that was just in case.
Because Ted didn't want the world to end.
(09:23):
And he wanted to do something about it.
He wanted a
framework onhow to go about making the world better.
Some kind of guidethat would help make sense of the problems
the world facesand what we could do about them.
Ted wanted a vision,so he decided to pay for one.
In 1991, he put together
the Ted Turner Fellowship,a contest of sorts,
(09:46):
offering half a million dollarsto the author who could provide
a new work of fictionthat had such a vision.
He assembled a team of judges,each a literary titan,
like while Stegner adding Gordon Mooreand Ray Bradbury.
Here's how Ted put it quote,
The great minds of today need to focuson the problems of global significance.
If humanity is to see new tomorrows,
(10:08):
these awards are designed to encouragewriting by authors throughout the world
and in all languages that create positivesolutions to global problems.
Uncle.
News of the contestspread all over the world.
The Fellowship received 2500 manuscriptsfrom 58 countries.
One of those submissionswas from Daniel Quinn.
(10:29):
His wife, Renee, had
heard about the contestand encouraged him to apply.
So he wrote one more version of the bookhe'd been working on for years and years.
Each version had differentcharacters told from different angles.
This timehe made it a dialog with a gorilla,
a gorilla named Ishmael, as DanielQuinn said in his autobiography.
(10:50):
I didn't expect to win.
I figured I'd be eliminatedin the first reading.
But sure enough, he won.
And in 1992, Ishmael
was published and shared worldwide.
And then a year later,
something happened that didn'thave anything to do with any of this.
It didn't matter to Daniel Quinn.
(11:10):
It certainly didn't matter to Ted Turner.
I was born,which mattered a whole lot to me.
And 18 years later, when I was graduatinghigh school while exploring Ashbourne.
Having already read Ishmael many times,I wondered
what would it take for the worldto change?
(11:36):
In the book, Ishmael and the narratorshare an ongoing conversation.
Over many months, they'll have a sessionabout a specific idea.
The narrator will go home, think it over.
Then they'll come backand build on where they left off.
But one afternoon,
the narrator finds that Ishmael is gone.
(11:56):
Just totally vanished.
The only thing left in Ishmael is emptyoffice.
Is the smell of guerrilla
war that could have gone.
Can't exactly saunter over to Tripoliwithout catching too much attention.
He's a girl, after all.
The narrator's devastated.
He has so many unanswered questions.
You can't leave me hanging.We weren't done.
(12:17):
You told me all this stuff, but you didn'ttell me what to do about it.
You might be wondering the same thingyourself.
I mean, herewe are. Seven episodes into the podcast.
We've talked
about our collective captivity and takersand levers and cultural mythology.
The Garden of Eden, the love life.
Now what, Ishmael?
What are you saying? We do.
The narrator is determined to find them.
(12:38):
He remembers Ishmaelonce told him he came from a circus.
Could that be where he returned?
Well, after some digging.
Turns out there's a carnivala few towns over.
And sure enough,the narrator finds Ishmael there,
back behind the bars of a cage.
The narrator waits for the gawkingchildren of eve bribes security guard,
and finally can ask Ishmael what's next?
(13:00):
But Ishmaeldoesn't give us the ten simple steps
to save the world or how to applyfor an official leaver certificate.
Ishmael is not that kind of guerillaor that kind of book.
Instead, Ishmael essentiallygives us a map of the landscape
and a compass so that we may navigatethe societal journey ourselves.
(13:22):
But how do you transforman entire society?
Ishmael has given us
a lot of parables so far,but now I want to share one of my own
that will help ussee how Ishmael will frame how to navigate
this collective transformation.
There once was a young princewho inherited a vast kingdom.
(13:43):
When he looked outbeyond the palace walls, he saw that
his people were unhappy.
There was much strife, turmoil and unrest.
Crime was rampant.
There were theft, scams, extortion.
Even murder was commonplace.
Nobody could trust their neighbors.
It's far from ideal, but the prince wasdetermined to do something about it,
(14:04):
so he locked himself away in his libraryfor days.
He didn't eat. He didn't sleep.
And finally, the prince was struckby a vision of clarity.
He wouldn't just make things better.
He would create the perfect society.
You see, the princerealized the problem with
his subjects was theirbehavior was incorrect.
(14:25):
Therefore,all the people needed were clear,
detailed instructionson how to behave correctly.
The prince scrawled away furiously
and drafted up the perfect solutionthat would save his kingdom.
At long last,the prince emerged from his chamber.
Peter the prince called out to his trustyacolyte.
Peter dutifullyand diligently entered the candlelit room,
(14:48):
impressed by his words,carefully drawn out plans. Yes.
Yes. Hello, Peter.
I have here written the most brilliantlyconceived, foolproof commandment.
You are to implement this perfect plan,and soon
we shall have created the ideal society.
Fantastic idea, my liege,who always have the best ideas.
(15:12):
Thank you, Peter.
So what is this?
Official decree?
No more lying.
No more lying.
That's right.
It is now forbidden.
Oh, wow.
I didn't realize we could.
Yes, Peter, we can.
And we will.
Yes, yes,of course, Your Highness. A point.
(15:34):
I shall have this new order proclaimedin every corner of your kingdom.
Very good.
So Peter went out to execute his master'sorders.
Trumpets were blown.
Scrolls are disseminated,and soon every last peasant and paper
in the whole landknew what the prince had proclaimed.
A few dayslater, Peter returned to the prince.
(15:57):
At your hands.
Yes, Peter.
Well, you see,I have good news and bad news.
Okay. What is the good news?
Well, the good news is I use this new fontand all of the scrolls are handed out.
It looks very good, very official.
I was really quite pleased.
And the bad news?
(16:18):
Oh, that.
Yes. Well, noteveryone is following this new law.
They're not?
No, no.
People are still lying.
I guess the law didn't work.
I got any others. You want to try instead?
No, Peter.
In fact, I planned for this.
(16:41):
You planned for this? Yes, I did.
This isn't a problem at all.
Peter, go tell the people that thosewho do not follow
this law will be punished.
Punished?
Indeed, those who lie,even though it is forbidden,
will be sent to the dungeons,
(17:04):
the dungeon.
Your Excellency.
That dungeons for a whole year.
Well, Peter, as loyal as he was announcedthe new decree.
Soon, hundreds, if not thousands, weretaken by Royal Guards and locked away.
Some estimated half of the entire kingdomwas found guilty and punished.
(17:25):
In fact, so many were imprisonedthat dozens of new dungeons
had to be constructed.
A year passed, and Peter went to updatethe prince on his new policy.
Greetings, Your Majesty.
Hello, Peter.
What say you?
Well, I. I've got good news and bad news.
This is due to the bad news this time.
(17:46):
Yes. Yes, certainly, Sydney.
The bad news is that the prisonerswho have been released
were found lying again.
Still lying.
Are they? Yes.
It seems even after prison day,we're just.
Don't stop.
I see.
(18:06):
Don't feel bad.
Your greatness or the law didn't work out.
I'm sure you can conceiveof an even better one.
Peter, you silly little man.
The law is working fine.
It is.
It's the people who aren't working.
Oh, right.
Right. So.
(18:27):
So what shall we do with the lawyersin a whole year in the dungeons?
Don't stop them.
The answer is simple.
We shall send them to prison for life.
And so it went until every last one ofthe prince's subjects were locked away.
(18:49):
And the whole kingdom became onegreat dungeon.
The Prince never viewed this as a failure,however.
Sure, people weren'tbehaving how he told them to.
But at leastthey were being punished for it.
Now, in many ways,this ain't too different from now.
Take your civilization's
criminal justice system has operatedfor thousands of years.
(19:09):
Ishmael points out that even way backin the time of Hammurabi,
the ancient Babylonian ruler, takershave created laws
that tell people how they must liveand punish them for breaking it.
Even if a law isn't working,meaning that many, many people are
constantly breaking it and being punishedfor it, like, oh, I don't know.
The war on drugs in our era.
Takers won't enforce this law because it'swhat people are supposed to do.
(19:34):
On the other hand,Ishmael explains that generally speaking,
believers aren't making uncompromisedpassing laws based on hypothetical ideals.
Adjustments are made.
Individual circumstancesare taking into consideration.
There's flexibility.
This is one of the key distinctionsIshmael makes between takers and leavers
takers from their culturethrough declarations and inventions.
(19:57):
Leavers evolve their culture over time
based on what's working well for people.
And what works well for people is goingto be different for different people
in different places at different times.
And that's important, too.
Ishmael is adamant that there's no, quote,one right way to live, unquote.
A world full of
takers, trendstowards a monolithic culture,
(20:21):
a world full of leavers, trends towardsdiversity of thinking, being and behaving.
But ultimately, Ishmael believes,
if we want to change how people, quote,behave towards the world,
we need to change the waythey think about the world, unquote.
As Ishmael says,
as long as the people of your cultureare convinced that the world
(20:41):
belongs to them and their destinyis to conquer and rule it,
then they are, of course,
going to go on acting the way they've beenacting for the past 10,000 years.
You can't change these thingswith the laws.
You must change people's minds, unquote.
The narrator can't help but noticethat Ishmael is.
(21:02):
Health seems to be rapidly deteriorating.
He's grown sick and weary.
Ishmael is an
elderlygorilla and starting to feel his age.
One night, Ishmael tells him, quote,
I've finished what I've set out to do.
As a teacher,I have nothing more to give you.
Even so, I would be pleased to count youas a friend, unquote.
(21:26):
I like that Daniel Quint includedthis detail.
Ishmael is not trying to have the narratorfollow and listen to him forever.
The point is not following.
Ishmael had a specific message to share,and once it shared, it ends.
The teacher student dynamicwith the narrator couldn't have known
was that these end up being thefinal words he ever hears from Ishmael.
(21:48):
The next time, when he arrives to visit,to attempt to buy Ishmael is freedom.
With all his withdrawnsavings in his pocket,
he finds that the carnival's gone.
There's a janitor cleaning up the trashwho tells him just the night before
Ishmael died of pneumonia.
(22:12):
If we want
to changehow people behave towards the world,
we need to change the waythey think about the world.
This is the part of the questwhere our wise old mentor leaves us
and we have to find our way on our own.
That's all we're left with in Ishmael.
What do we make of it?
(22:34):
For several summers after high school,
my friend Danand I set up our own yardwork business.
My specialty was mowing lawns, and Danhad a way with those hedge trimmers.
But our favorite task was gardening,helping things grow.
Some plants grow at the expense of others.
In the garden.
They take up so much space that soonnothing else is able to live.
(22:56):
When weeding,it does no good to simply snap off stems
or cut back branches to be most effective.
You've got to pull it out by the root.
That's essentially what Ishmael did helpedget at the source
of our civilizational crisis.
With Ishmael his
help, I could see how the many criseswe face are interconnected.
(23:18):
Part of the same gnarly vinethat's overtaking the rest of the garden
and the roots of our civilizational crisis
are deep and planted long ago.
So let's considerone of our crises like climate change.
We can build higher seawallsand grow drought resistant crops,
but these are only Band-Aids.
You could say the real problem is burningfossil fuels or overpopulation.
(23:42):
Maybe capitalism.
But Ishmael would view all these stillas just symptoms of taken mythology,
enacting the storythat the world belongs to us.
Oh, no. I know where this is going.
What's up, boss? You rang.
No, no, no, I.
We were just talking about gardening.
(24:04):
This is our take on mythology.
How we met in previous episodes.
He speaks of subconsciouscultural bias we're all raised with.
He can be a little gardening.
Boring.
Yeah,you probably wouldn't be interested. So.
No. There's nothing wrong with a hobby.
I can get down with that.What are we talking?
A couple of supple succulents.
If you find five kisses.
(24:25):
No, actually,
it's just a metaphor.
We were talking about finding the rootof our civilizations crises.
If we're to continue to exist,we'll have to try and remove that root.
How did the talking gorillatell you that, too?
So what's the root?
Well, it's taken mythology.
(24:45):
Excuse me.
It's how we perceive the world.
Our relationship to it.
Fundamentally, if we want to change,we've got to change our mindset.
Oh, that's what you got to do.
We got to change our mindset.
What a frickin luxury.
There's people starving.
There's wars all over the place.
The seas are rising.
Now, those are problems to solve.
(25:06):
You're saying that instead you'vegot to focus on changing how you think?
No, that'snot the only thing we have to do.
It's not like we can only do one thing.
The famines and wars and climate change,those are serious stems and branches
we have to deal with.
In fact, when weeding
sometimes you're gonna have to clip offsome branches
and stems to even get to the root.
(25:26):
Okay. Yeah.
Let's not think these big questionsare meant to keep us in lofty places.
Seeing activismand politics is just beneath us.
There's still a part of saving the worldbalanced breakfast.
We still need to create better laws,elect better representatives,
take direct action.
Uh huh.
We just have to recognize that in orderto really solve these problems
(25:49):
and heal these things, we have to knowwhere they come from as well.
We need a fundamental transformationof our entire society.
Oh, come on.
That's so lame.
What are you.
Mister Rogers sweater.
I say, if you want real change.
But this all burned to the ground.
Start over.
I used to dabble in a little pyromaniaback in the day.
Now, I don't know.
(26:11):
Look,if we're on a plane not designed to fly,
our task isn't to wait for its crash,but figure out how to find a way
to land safelyand build a better design. Hmm.
But I think you have a point.
Some peoplekind of like the idea of a crash.
It's maybe similar to a drug addictseeking rock bottom
(26:32):
as a way to triggersome sort of external intervention.
But a crash isn't a real transformation.
We just start buildingthis all over again.
I don't know.
You guys are falling kind of fast.
Seems kind of inevitable.
Okay. Okay.
If we do crash and we might not, or itwon't happen everywhere at the same time.
(26:53):
But if we do crash,we need to make sure that the people
on the other side one day say, look, kids,you see all that rubble.
That's because we tried to thinkthat the world belonged to us.
We're not going to do that again.
The worst case scenario isif after the crash, people of the future
look at the rubble and say, kids,you see that we used to live like gods.
(27:14):
We got to do that again.
So you want to change minds,but you don't want revolution.
I just don't see the revolutionas one event.
The revolution we needis not like the French Revolution.
A quick, violent moment.
We need a revolution of the mind that willtake place over decades, centuries.
The transformationour civilization needs to go through
(27:37):
is somewhat similar to the Renaissance,which literally means a rebirth.
Yeah.
No, I studied the classics well,at the beginning of the Renaissance.
People weren't like, okay,the goal is to build a society
that in 400 yearslooks like blah, blah, blah.
They just thought about themselves,the world,
and their relation to it differently.
When our whole society
(27:58):
has different expectations about whatwe as a species should be doing here.
We're going to naturally followthose expectations,
and our transformationneeds to be even broader and deeper
than the European Renaissance,which was just refining taken mythology.
We need a complete overhaul.
Okay, let's put it in, Ishmael, in terms
(28:20):
at the beginningof the agricultural revolution,
when your mythology was first being formedand the lifestyles were first changing.
The people then couldn't have possiblyimagined the world we create down the line
when the first takers were embarking onwhat would become our global civilization.
They didn't know how to split an atomor alter the Earth's climate.
(28:41):
And they didn't need to.
They just believed the world belongedto them and took it one step at a time.
They started in one sense,quite literally, cultivating
seeds that grew into somethingbeyond their imagination.
So metaphorically,that's the position we're in.
Fundamentally, I think Ishmael is right.
Change minds, create a changed world.
(29:05):
So you're serious that you really thinkI'm the problem?
You think taking mythologycaused all this?
Well, yeah, I.
I thought we were friends.
Is it because I saidyou need a dandruff shampoo?
No, it's not because of that.
I don't get it.
But I've ever steered you wrong.
Well, you told us we were at the centerof the universe, so we're not.
(29:29):
Well, yeah, I meant the centerof the universe in my heart.
You told us we were createdseparately and superior to all of life.
Well, you can't take a compliment.
The community of life are our cousins.
Okay, sure.
So what?
You insisted the law of lifedoesn't apply to us?
Yeah. Turns out that was my bet.
And most importantly, you convinced us
(29:51):
the world was ours to conquer.
So that's it?
You'regoing to just throw me in the trash?
A few thousand years of bad adviceand don't get done with me
after all we've been through.
I'll tell you what all humans need a storyto enact one way or another.
(30:12):
Ishmael said, quote,You can't just root out
a harmful complex of ideasand leave a void behind.
You have to give people something that isas meaningful as what they've lost.
Unquote. Will still need a story.
Okay. Sure.
To grow up and not be.
Listen. Take your hat.
We can still be friends.
Okay?
(30:32):
Yeah, but we need to change the mythologywe're enacting.
Oh, Lord. Change.
Change is hard, but extinction is worse.
So you can still be our imaginary hat.
Whispering words of encouragement,offering insight and advice.
But it can't be thatthe world belongs to us anymore.
(30:52):
We need to enact a different story.
It has to be now.
We belong to the world.
You belong to the world.
That's what's been true all along.
Listen, this is a good thing,and you can be a part of it,
okay?
You belong to the world.
(31:13):
That's right.
You're a part of the community of voice.
There you go.
Your existence depends on ecological helpand robust biodiversity of the planet.
Now you're getting the hang of it.
I am?
Yeah. This is a good place to start.
Who knows?
You keep spreading that message.
The whole world could change.
(31:35):
We could change the world.
We've done it before.
Well, then you got yourself a deal.
And speaking of deals, there'sthis new shampoo that's half off.
It could help with your dandruff.
Okay. Okay.
Thank you.
I'll get some today. Who?
So, what did Ishmael meanby belonging to the world?
(31:58):
Because it'scertainly not the inverse of the world.
Belonging to us in the sensethat the world owns us.
It's a different kind of belonging.
We're at home here.We have a role to play.
Like beaver dams and hills, beehives.
Our presence on this earthisn't meant to be destructive.
It's meant to be part of the ecosystem.
(32:20):
I think one way to think about it iswe need to lean into
giving in to what's already occurring.
Because I have good news.
The truth is,we already belong to the world.
Poof! We did it.
We are already intrinsically linkedto the rest of existence.
(32:40):
Flowing and evolving with it.
Every year, Western science is finding outmore and more
how true this is, which it initiallydid not set out to prove.
Maybeanother way of thinking about the question
how do we belong to the world ishow do you belong to a place?
How do you feel at home there?
How do you treat the rest of lifeas family?
(33:04):
These are questionswe all need to answer in our own way.
It's not about finding the right answer.
It's finding the one that fitswith where we are
and who we are.
A couple of years ago,I got a text from my friend
that said they were finally developingAshbourne Dam.
(33:25):
I knew this day would come,but I guess part of me
still hopedwe'd wake up in time to find another way.
I hadn't lived in Philly since childhoodand my parents had moved away too.
But I knew I had to drive downback to the land
between the endless mountainsand Pine Barrens and see it for myself.
(33:46):
I tried to emotionally prepare,but my heart still sank when I came to
the intersection.
The thickets and thorns were gone.
The golf course turned
meadow was now a desolate dirtpile stretching for half a mile.
Cookie cutter houses were being installed.
It was a weekendand the place seemed empty.
So I walked like a ghost to the wasteland.
(34:06):
Recording videos on my phoneas I went, Oh, shoot,
there's a bulldozer here.
You see me?
The guy in the bulldozerturned off his engine and walked over.
The kid in me felt caught red handed.
I guess I never have beenallowed to be here anyway,
(34:28):
but this guy didn't shoot me away.
I think he was happyto take a break and talk.
So what's the plan for this area?
It's going to be a development. Housing.
How long?
These are all houses like everywhere.You see these blue signs?
Yeah,they're all singles, lots housing, lots
have houses off of this house,
(34:49):
everything else
goes all the way.
When I was a teenager and it was abandonedhere, I would come to my friends
and we would explore.
And it was like such a special place.
And so I grew uplike my house was on a dead end street.
It was woods all the way backinto the next industrial park.
(35:11):
So it was probably half the size of thisand it was great
and Industrial Parkcame in and bought out the buildings.
And so yeah, now you've got trucks up anddown the street and everybody in and out.
It's crazy and how it is.
Somehowtalking to that guy helped a little.
(35:35):
This was literally a dudedestroying the place I loved,
but I knew he wasn't my enemy.
We're all just stuckenacting the same old story.
As I was leaving
Ashbourne, I stop on your golfcourse asphalt path.
It started to fissure and crackhalf my lifetime before.
(35:56):
And now a young pine treegrew in the cracks.
Its needles almost totally coveredthe pavement that it was slowly
shaking off.
There are cracks all around us
in the restrictive systems we've built,and then the mythologies we tell
in those spots, new life grows.
(36:18):
I remember that Ashbourne was notjust the old country club or what grew up.
Once it was abandoned, Ashbourne was this
the crack in the concrete
and what grows in that opening?
And I realized
Ashbourne is everywhere.
(36:40):
If we as a species
are to continue our journey in the world,we must change the story we're enacting
one that doesn't view us
as the master species,but as a member of the community of life.
It's up to each of usto answer the question
of how we enact this storyin our lifetime.
Our change mindswill lead to a change world.
(37:04):
It won't happen instantly.
But give it time and it'll grow.
In a sense,Ishmael was just the beginning.
Daniel Quinn wrote new books,each delving deeper than the last, like
the story of BeMy Ishmael and Beyond Civilization.
(37:27):
We'll explore these as well.
Further down the road.
But in 2018,after struggling with his health
for several years, Daniel Quinnpassed away.
It was actually from pneumonia,the same fate
he'd written for Ishmaelall those years earlier.
He was 82.
Daniel Quinn dedicated so much of his lifeto sharing a vision for our journey.
(37:51):
Where we go now
is up to us.
Thanks for listening.
There's one person out there who witnessed
the ideas in Ishmael take form firsthand.
Without her help, they would have neverbeen shared with the world.
That person is DanielQuinn's wife of 50 years.
(38:11):
Renee, on the next episode of HumanNature Odyssey,
Renee will join us for herfirst ever interview,
and we'll get to hear herinvaluable insight,
perspective and storiesthat have yet to be shared.
Until next time, where do you seethe cracks in our mythology
and what grows there?
(38:32):
Talk to you soon.
If you'd like to support Human NatureOdyssey, please share it with a friend.
Subscribe wherever you enjoy your podcastsand check out our Patreon.
If you're hungry for more on these topics,that's where you'll find it.
We have interviews,
bonus guests, additional writings,transcripts of episodes and audio extras.
(38:53):
If you believe in what we're doing hereand want to help
keep it going in the future,your support helps make that possible.
Our theme music is Celestial SodaPop by Ray Lynch.
You can find the link in our show notes.
And thank you to Jesse,Stephen, Michael, Gary, Coby, Fig, Dan
and of courseour voice actors for this episode on
and then Indian.
You and I are on
a quest of epic proportions.
Our world is facing catastrophe ona planetary scale and in need of our help.
Together, we've answered the callto adventure and left the comforts
of our peaceful villageset forth into the unknown.
And that's when we metIshmael, a telepathic gorilla
(00:23):
who showed us how our civilization is heldcaptive by a story and helped us
cross over the treacherous wall of Tigermythology.
We came into contact with the leverstraverse the Garden of Eden, studied
the wildlife and made itall the way to here where we are today.
The climactic culminationof our exploration.
(00:46):
The ideas in the novel.
Ishmael, written by author Daniel Quinn,
think it's timewe return to the place it all began.
Ashbourne.
(01:06):
Hold on.
Careful.
All right.
Let's cross the intersection
and pass through the thickets.
Remember to watch out for the thorns.
Yeah.
Just ignore the no trespassing sign.
Here we are.
Ashbourne Country Club.
It's been abandoned for years.
(01:28):
Come on, let's explore.
Check out those oak trees.
That to be, like, 200 years old.
And look.
Can you still tell this was a golf course?
The grass is as high as our waistat this point.
It's a real meadow now
and here. Oh.
Watch your step.
You see that patchwhere the tall grass is matted down?
(01:51):
That's a deer bed. I've seen them.
The deer made this.
This is where they sleep at night.
And some of the most amazing things
can only be seen over time.
This is the old country club'sprivate pool.
An artificial hole dug into the ground,
lined with concrete,filled with chlorinated water.
(02:11):
And then when Ashbourne was abandoned.
Slowly but surely, the rain washed outthe chemicals.
Algae formed at its edges.
One day I noticed there were lily pads.
The next year there are reeds
and eventually frogs.
It's funny.
We live in a culturewhere it seems like nothing happens
(02:33):
unless we force it to the streets.
Don't pay themselves.
Money doesn't grow on trees.
But look, this was a sand trap.
I watched this every day.
The moss that took hold.
The plantsthat grow up on the back of the lichen.
This is life just happening on its own.
And if we spend enough timehere, we'll see hawks and herons
(02:54):
and foxes and groundhogs
at the bottom of the hill over there.
That's where I bring my friends.
The ones who do understandwe'd sit around makeshift campfires.
My friend Mark and I started to learnhow to identify different species
and ate freely from theabundant wine berry bushes.
And the most incredible thing is
(03:15):
the whole world is this.
Buried under layers of asphalt.
It's there.
In Ashbourne, the soil shakes offthe cracked asphalt like a bad dream.
New life grows in those cracks.
And as a kid, I was confused.
Why are we resisting this?
Our culture calls this overgrownand undeveloped.
(03:35):
Few people just come out and say it.
But most times we really dobelieve nature is just a resource.
But Ashbourne showsthat the whole world can be different.
Because here it already is.
And we know that there are culturesthat live in balance for the rest of life.
Our culture could be one of them.
But as long as we're stuck in our mindset,it's only a matter of time before the
(03:56):
bulldozers will come to rip up the soiland buried in asphalt all over again.
Around the time I graduated high school.
Construction crews started mowing backthe meadow mark trees to be cut.
Even tore down one of the buildingsthat was the most fun to export.
Development like this would startand stop in fits and spurts
(04:17):
until luckily it paused for a long time.
Maybe someone in some boardroomsomewhere had to wait for
someone at some desksomewhere else to sign some form.
They were waiting onfrom some department downtown.
Who knows?It would all get done eventually.
I knew unlessone day they changed their minds
and joined us in celebrating the flowers,
(04:40):
breaking through the asphalt.
Welcome to Episodeseven of Human Nature Odyssey,
a podcast exploringhow our world is in trouble
and what the heckwe can possibly do about it.
(05:01):
I'm Alexis.
Daniel Quinn once wrote Thinkersaren't limited by what they know
(05:22):
because they can always increasewhat they know
rather,they're limited by what puzzles them
because there's no way to become curiousabout something that doesn't puzzle you.
Daniel Quinn was
born in 1935 in Omaha, Nebraska,
and as a young man, he stumbled uponmany questions that truly puzzled him.
(05:43):
Questions about human history,
mythology, civilization,and its self-destructive path.
His curiositybrought him into the hills of Kentucky
to become a Trappist monk, to Chicagoto work in education, publishing
and the deserts of New Mexicowith his wife, Renee.
Along the way,he had certain thoughts which took form
as interesting ideasand eventually he wrote, quote,
(06:07):
It seemed to meI had something worth sharing.
It would be a book devoted to explaininghow things came to be this way, unquote.
And one day it would also be a bookabout how things could be different.
But it's one thing to have an idea.
Finding a way to share it.
That would be much harder.
In 1977, he wrote the first draft,but it wasn't quite right.
(06:30):
So he wrote another and another,sometimes entire
manuscripts would be dumped in the trash,but he kept at it.
Eventually he had something that to himat least seemed publishable.
But the renowned literary agenthe sent it to did not think so.
This is the 1980s,the agent told him, not the sixties.
He sent Daniel Quinn back.
(06:51):
This response, quote,
There were days when the love and peacewere very much the by words of the times.
But today's audiences have revertedto conservatism to a good degree.
The modern reader is far more likelyto purchase a computer book or something
that offers practical advice
than a work which deals with more arcanesubject matter.
(07:11):
We simply can't see marketing the scriptprofitably in the contemporary
publishing marketplace.
Furthermore, it'salso my sad duty to have to inform you
that no amount of revision could possiblyturn this into a sellable manuscript.
The flaws in this scriptare intimately bound up in your central
underlying conceptualizations,and these make this material totally
and completely unreliable, unquote.
(07:35):
Well, shit.
What do you do with a rejection like that?
Maybe you take a break.
Worked on some other stuff, sleepin a bit later than usual for a few days.
But if this is really important to you,you'll find a way to get back at it.
And it probably helpsto have the support of a loving partner
like Daniel Quinn did.
So he got back at itand rewrote it again and again.
(07:58):
Years passed.
Each time he kept what was working and cutwhat wasn't.
Maybe this needed to be emphasized.
This needed to be explaineda different way.
In this sense, the book wasn't created.
It evolved.
But who would publish this thing?
(08:21):
Meanwhile,there was another young man named Ted,
who grew up in a wealthy familyin Ohio at the age of 24.
His father committed suicide,leaving Ted devastated
and in charge of the family business,which happened to be a billboard company.
Giant signs that get people's attentionand spread information.
(08:41):
It seems Ted had a genuine interestin this, or at least was good at it.
Ted bought a local broadcast stationand eventually
launchedthe first 24 hour cable news channel.
Ted called itthe Cable News Network or CNN.
Ted Turner now owned a full on mediaempire and amassed a great fortune.
(09:01):
But like Daniel Quinn, Ted was concerned
with the way civilizationseemed to be heading.
In fact, Teddid the producers of CNN create
a special video that would airif the world happened to come to an end?
He gathered a military marching bandto play the same hymn
they played aboard the Titanicas it was sinking.
But that was just in case.
Because Ted didn't want the world to end.
(09:23):
And he wanted to do something about it.
He wanted a
framework onhow to go about making the world better.
Some kind of guidethat would help make sense of the problems
the world facesand what we could do about them.
Ted wanted a vision,so he decided to pay for one.
In 1991, he put together
the Ted Turner Fellowship,a contest of sorts,
(09:46):
offering half a million dollarsto the author who could provide
a new work of fictionthat had such a vision.
He assembled a team of judges,each a literary titan,
like while Stegner adding Gordon Mooreand Ray Bradbury.
Here's how Ted put it quote,
The great minds of today need to focuson the problems of global significance.
If humanity is to see new tomorrows,
(10:08):
these awards are designed to encouragewriting by authors throughout the world
and in all languages that create positivesolutions to global problems.
Uncle.
News of the contestspread all over the world.
The Fellowship received 2500 manuscriptsfrom 58 countries.
One of those submissionswas from Daniel Quinn.
(10:29):
His wife, Renee, had
heard about the contestand encouraged him to apply.
So he wrote one more version of the bookhe'd been working on for years and years.
Each version had differentcharacters told from different angles.
This timehe made it a dialog with a gorilla,
a gorilla named Ishmael, as DanielQuinn said in his autobiography.
(10:50):
I didn't expect to win.
I figured I'd be eliminatedin the first reading.
But sure enough, he won.
And in 1992, Ishmael
was published and shared worldwide.
And then a year later,
something happened that didn'thave anything to do with any of this.
It didn't matter to Daniel Quinn.
(11:10):
It certainly didn't matter to Ted Turner.
I was born,which mattered a whole lot to me.
And 18 years later, when I was graduatinghigh school while exploring Ashbourne.
Having already read Ishmael many times,I wondered
what would it take for the worldto change?
(11:36):
In the book, Ishmael and the narratorshare an ongoing conversation.
Over many months, they'll have a sessionabout a specific idea.
The narrator will go home, think it over.
Then they'll come backand build on where they left off.
But one afternoon,
the narrator finds that Ishmael is gone.
(11:56):
Just totally vanished.
The only thing left in Ishmael is emptyoffice.
Is the smell of guerrilla
war that could have gone.
Can't exactly saunter over to Tripoliwithout catching too much attention.
He's a girl, after all.
The narrator's devastated.
He has so many unanswered questions.
You can't leave me hanging.We weren't done.
(12:17):
You told me all this stuff, but you didn'ttell me what to do about it.
You might be wondering the same thingyourself.
I mean, herewe are. Seven episodes into the podcast.
We've talked
about our collective captivity and takersand levers and cultural mythology.
The Garden of Eden, the love life.
Now what, Ishmael?
What are you saying? We do.
The narrator is determined to find them.
(12:38):
He remembers Ishmaelonce told him he came from a circus.
Could that be where he returned?
Well, after some digging.
Turns out there's a carnivala few towns over.
And sure enough,the narrator finds Ishmael there,
back behind the bars of a cage.
The narrator waits for the gawkingchildren of eve bribes security guard,
and finally can ask Ishmael what's next?
(13:00):
But Ishmaeldoesn't give us the ten simple steps
to save the world or how to applyfor an official leaver certificate.
Ishmael is not that kind of guerillaor that kind of book.
Instead, Ishmael essentiallygives us a map of the landscape
and a compass so that we may navigatethe societal journey ourselves.
(13:22):
But how do you transforman entire society?
Ishmael has given us
a lot of parables so far,but now I want to share one of my own
that will help ussee how Ishmael will frame how to navigate
this collective transformation.
There once was a young princewho inherited a vast kingdom.
(13:43):
When he looked outbeyond the palace walls, he saw that
his people were unhappy.
There was much strife, turmoil and unrest.
Crime was rampant.
There were theft, scams, extortion.
Even murder was commonplace.
Nobody could trust their neighbors.
It's far from ideal, but the prince wasdetermined to do something about it,
(14:04):
so he locked himself away in his libraryfor days.
He didn't eat. He didn't sleep.
And finally, the prince was struckby a vision of clarity.
He wouldn't just make things better.
He would create the perfect society.
You see, the princerealized the problem with
his subjects was theirbehavior was incorrect.
(14:25):
Therefore,all the people needed were clear,
detailed instructionson how to behave correctly.
The prince scrawled away furiously
and drafted up the perfect solutionthat would save his kingdom.
At long last,the prince emerged from his chamber.
Peter the prince called out to his trustyacolyte.
Peter dutifullyand diligently entered the candlelit room,
(14:48):
impressed by his words,carefully drawn out plans. Yes.
Yes. Hello, Peter.
I have here written the most brilliantlyconceived, foolproof commandment.
You are to implement this perfect plan,and soon
we shall have created the ideal society.
Fantastic idea, my liege,who always have the best ideas.
(15:12):
Thank you, Peter.
So what is this?
Official decree?
No more lying.
No more lying.
That's right.
It is now forbidden.
Oh, wow.
I didn't realize we could.
Yes, Peter, we can.
And we will.
Yes, yes,of course, Your Highness. A point.
(15:34):
I shall have this new order proclaimedin every corner of your kingdom.
Very good.
So Peter went out to execute his master'sorders.
Trumpets were blown.
Scrolls are disseminated,and soon every last peasant and paper
in the whole landknew what the prince had proclaimed.
A few dayslater, Peter returned to the prince.
(15:57):
At your hands.
Yes, Peter.
Well, you see,I have good news and bad news.
Okay. What is the good news?
Well, the good news is I use this new fontand all of the scrolls are handed out.
It looks very good, very official.
I was really quite pleased.
And the bad news?
(16:18):
Oh, that.
Yes. Well, noteveryone is following this new law.
They're not?
No, no.
People are still lying.
I guess the law didn't work.
I got any others. You want to try instead?
No, Peter.
In fact, I planned for this.
(16:41):
You planned for this? Yes, I did.
This isn't a problem at all.
Peter, go tell the people that thosewho do not follow
this law will be punished.
Punished?
Indeed, those who lie,even though it is forbidden,
will be sent to the dungeons,
(17:04):
the dungeon.
Your Excellency.
That dungeons for a whole year.
Well, Peter, as loyal as he was announcedthe new decree.
Soon, hundreds, if not thousands, weretaken by Royal Guards and locked away.
Some estimated half of the entire kingdomwas found guilty and punished.
(17:25):
In fact, so many were imprisonedthat dozens of new dungeons
had to be constructed.
A year passed, and Peter went to updatethe prince on his new policy.
Greetings, Your Majesty.
Hello, Peter.
What say you?
Well, I. I've got good news and bad news.
This is due to the bad news this time.
(17:46):
Yes. Yes, certainly, Sydney.
The bad news is that the prisonerswho have been released
were found lying again.
Still lying.
Are they? Yes.
It seems even after prison day,we're just.
Don't stop.
I see.
(18:06):
Don't feel bad.
Your greatness or the law didn't work out.
I'm sure you can conceiveof an even better one.
Peter, you silly little man.
The law is working fine.
It is.
It's the people who aren't working.
Oh, right.
Right. So.
(18:27):
So what shall we do with the lawyersin a whole year in the dungeons?
Don't stop them.
The answer is simple.
We shall send them to prison for life.
And so it went until every last one ofthe prince's subjects were locked away.
(18:49):
And the whole kingdom became onegreat dungeon.
The Prince never viewed this as a failure,however.
Sure, people weren'tbehaving how he told them to.
But at leastthey were being punished for it.
Now, in many ways,this ain't too different from now.
Take your civilization's
criminal justice system has operatedfor thousands of years.
(19:09):
Ishmael points out that even way backin the time of Hammurabi,
the ancient Babylonian ruler, takershave created laws
that tell people how they must liveand punish them for breaking it.
Even if a law isn't working,meaning that many, many people are
constantly breaking it and being punishedfor it, like, oh, I don't know.
The war on drugs in our era.
Takers won't enforce this law because it'swhat people are supposed to do.
(19:34):
On the other hand,Ishmael explains that generally speaking,
believers aren't making uncompromisedpassing laws based on hypothetical ideals.
Adjustments are made.
Individual circumstancesare taking into consideration.
There's flexibility.
This is one of the key distinctionsIshmael makes between takers and leavers
takers from their culturethrough declarations and inventions.
(19:57):
Leavers evolve their culture over time
based on what's working well for people.
And what works well for people is goingto be different for different people
in different places at different times.
And that's important, too.
Ishmael is adamant that there's no, quote,one right way to live, unquote.
A world full of
takers, trendstowards a monolithic culture,
(20:21):
a world full of leavers, trends towardsdiversity of thinking, being and behaving.
But ultimately, Ishmael believes,
if we want to change how people, quote,behave towards the world,
we need to change the waythey think about the world, unquote.
As Ishmael says,
as long as the people of your cultureare convinced that the world
(20:41):
belongs to them and their destinyis to conquer and rule it,
then they are, of course,
going to go on acting the way they've beenacting for the past 10,000 years.
You can't change these thingswith the laws.
You must change people's minds, unquote.
The narrator can't help but noticethat Ishmael is.
(21:02):
Health seems to be rapidly deteriorating.
He's grown sick and weary.
Ishmael is an
elderlygorilla and starting to feel his age.
One night, Ishmael tells him, quote,
I've finished what I've set out to do.
As a teacher,I have nothing more to give you.
Even so, I would be pleased to count youas a friend, unquote.
(21:26):
I like that Daniel Quint includedthis detail.
Ishmael is not trying to have the narratorfollow and listen to him forever.
The point is not following.
Ishmael had a specific message to share,and once it shared, it ends.
The teacher student dynamicwith the narrator couldn't have known
was that these end up being thefinal words he ever hears from Ishmael.
(21:48):
The next time, when he arrives to visit,to attempt to buy Ishmael is freedom.
With all his withdrawnsavings in his pocket,
he finds that the carnival's gone.
There's a janitor cleaning up the trashwho tells him just the night before
Ishmael died of pneumonia.
(22:12):
If we want
to changehow people behave towards the world,
we need to change the waythey think about the world.
This is the part of the questwhere our wise old mentor leaves us
and we have to find our way on our own.
That's all we're left with in Ishmael.
What do we make of it?
(22:34):
For several summers after high school,
my friend Danand I set up our own yardwork business.
My specialty was mowing lawns, and Danhad a way with those hedge trimmers.
But our favorite task was gardening,helping things grow.
Some plants grow at the expense of others.
In the garden.
They take up so much space that soonnothing else is able to live.
(22:56):
When weeding,it does no good to simply snap off stems
or cut back branches to be most effective.
You've got to pull it out by the root.
That's essentially what Ishmael did helpedget at the source
of our civilizational crisis.
With Ishmael his
help, I could see how the many criseswe face are interconnected.
(23:18):
Part of the same gnarly vinethat's overtaking the rest of the garden
and the roots of our civilizational crisis
are deep and planted long ago.
So let's considerone of our crises like climate change.
We can build higher seawallsand grow drought resistant crops,
but these are only Band-Aids.
You could say the real problem is burningfossil fuels or overpopulation.
(23:42):
Maybe capitalism.
But Ishmael would view all these stillas just symptoms of taken mythology,
enacting the storythat the world belongs to us.
Oh, no. I know where this is going.
What's up, boss? You rang.
No, no, no, I.
We were just talking about gardening.
(24:04):
This is our take on mythology.
How we met in previous episodes.
He speaks of subconsciouscultural bias we're all raised with.
He can be a little gardening.
Boring.
Yeah,you probably wouldn't be interested. So.
No. There's nothing wrong with a hobby.
I can get down with that.What are we talking?
A couple of supple succulents.
If you find five kisses.
(24:25):
No, actually,
it's just a metaphor.
We were talking about finding the rootof our civilizations crises.
If we're to continue to exist,we'll have to try and remove that root.
How did the talking gorillatell you that, too?
So what's the root?
Well, it's taken mythology.
(24:45):
Excuse me.
It's how we perceive the world.
Our relationship to it.
Fundamentally, if we want to change,we've got to change our mindset.
Oh, that's what you got to do.
We got to change our mindset.
What a frickin luxury.
There's people starving.
There's wars all over the place.
The seas are rising.
Now, those are problems to solve.
(25:06):
You're saying that instead you'vegot to focus on changing how you think?
No, that'snot the only thing we have to do.
It's not like we can only do one thing.
The famines and wars and climate change,those are serious stems and branches
we have to deal with.
In fact, when weeding
sometimes you're gonna have to clip offsome branches
and stems to even get to the root.
(25:26):
Okay. Yeah.
Let's not think these big questionsare meant to keep us in lofty places.
Seeing activismand politics is just beneath us.
There's still a part of saving the worldbalanced breakfast.
We still need to create better laws,elect better representatives,
take direct action.
Uh huh.
We just have to recognize that in orderto really solve these problems
(25:49):
and heal these things, we have to knowwhere they come from as well.
We need a fundamental transformationof our entire society.
Oh, come on.
That's so lame.
What are you.
Mister Rogers sweater.
I say, if you want real change.
But this all burned to the ground.
Start over.
I used to dabble in a little pyromaniaback in the day.
Now, I don't know.
(26:11):
Look,if we're on a plane not designed to fly,
our task isn't to wait for its crash,but figure out how to find a way
to land safelyand build a better design. Hmm.
But I think you have a point.
Some peoplekind of like the idea of a crash.
It's maybe similar to a drug addictseeking rock bottom
(26:32):
as a way to triggersome sort of external intervention.
But a crash isn't a real transformation.
We just start buildingthis all over again.
I don't know.
You guys are falling kind of fast.
Seems kind of inevitable.
Okay. Okay.
If we do crash and we might not, or itwon't happen everywhere at the same time.
(26:53):
But if we do crash,we need to make sure that the people
on the other side one day say, look, kids,you see all that rubble.
That's because we tried to thinkthat the world belonged to us.
We're not going to do that again.
The worst case scenario isif after the crash, people of the future
look at the rubble and say, kids,you see that we used to live like gods.
(27:14):
We got to do that again.
So you want to change minds,but you don't want revolution.
I just don't see the revolutionas one event.
The revolution we needis not like the French Revolution.
A quick, violent moment.
We need a revolution of the mind that willtake place over decades, centuries.
The transformationour civilization needs to go through
(27:37):
is somewhat similar to the Renaissance,which literally means a rebirth.
Yeah.
No, I studied the classics well,at the beginning of the Renaissance.
People weren't like, okay,the goal is to build a society
that in 400 yearslooks like blah, blah, blah.
They just thought about themselves,the world,
and their relation to it differently.
When our whole society
(27:58):
has different expectations about whatwe as a species should be doing here.
We're going to naturally followthose expectations,
and our transformationneeds to be even broader and deeper
than the European Renaissance,which was just refining taken mythology.
We need a complete overhaul.
Okay, let's put it in, Ishmael, in terms
(28:20):
at the beginningof the agricultural revolution,
when your mythology was first being formedand the lifestyles were first changing.
The people then couldn't have possiblyimagined the world we create down the line
when the first takers were embarking onwhat would become our global civilization.
They didn't know how to split an atomor alter the Earth's climate.
(28:41):
And they didn't need to.
They just believed the world belongedto them and took it one step at a time.
They started in one sense,quite literally, cultivating
seeds that grew into somethingbeyond their imagination.
So metaphorically,that's the position we're in.
Fundamentally, I think Ishmael is right.
Change minds, create a changed world.
(29:05):
So you're serious that you really thinkI'm the problem?
You think taking mythologycaused all this?
Well, yeah, I.
I thought we were friends.
Is it because I saidyou need a dandruff shampoo?
No, it's not because of that.
I don't get it.
But I've ever steered you wrong.
Well, you told us we were at the centerof the universe, so we're not.
(29:29):
Well, yeah, I meant the centerof the universe in my heart.
You told us we were createdseparately and superior to all of life.
Well, you can't take a compliment.
The community of life are our cousins.
Okay, sure.
So what?
You insisted the law of lifedoesn't apply to us?
Yeah. Turns out that was my bet.
And most importantly, you convinced us
(29:51):
the world was ours to conquer.
So that's it?
You'regoing to just throw me in the trash?
A few thousand years of bad adviceand don't get done with me
after all we've been through.
I'll tell you what all humans need a storyto enact one way or another.
(30:12):
Ishmael said, quote,You can't just root out
a harmful complex of ideasand leave a void behind.
You have to give people something that isas meaningful as what they've lost.
Unquote. Will still need a story.
Okay. Sure.
To grow up and not be.
Listen. Take your hat.
We can still be friends.
Okay?
(30:32):
Yeah, but we need to change the mythologywe're enacting.
Oh, Lord. Change.
Change is hard, but extinction is worse.
So you can still be our imaginary hat.
Whispering words of encouragement,offering insight and advice.
But it can't be thatthe world belongs to us anymore.
(30:52):
We need to enact a different story.
It has to be now.
We belong to the world.
You belong to the world.
That's what's been true all along.
Listen, this is a good thing,and you can be a part of it,
okay?
You belong to the world.
(31:13):
That's right.
You're a part of the community of voice.
There you go.
Your existence depends on ecological helpand robust biodiversity of the planet.
Now you're getting the hang of it.
I am?
Yeah. This is a good place to start.
Who knows?
You keep spreading that message.
The whole world could change.
(31:35):
We could change the world.
We've done it before.
Well, then you got yourself a deal.
And speaking of deals, there'sthis new shampoo that's half off.
It could help with your dandruff.
Okay. Okay.
Thank you.
I'll get some today. Who?
So, what did Ishmael meanby belonging to the world?
(31:58):
Because it'scertainly not the inverse of the world.
Belonging to us in the sensethat the world owns us.
It's a different kind of belonging.
We're at home here.We have a role to play.
Like beaver dams and hills, beehives.
Our presence on this earthisn't meant to be destructive.
It's meant to be part of the ecosystem.
(32:20):
I think one way to think about it iswe need to lean into
giving in to what's already occurring.
Because I have good news.
The truth is,we already belong to the world.
Poof! We did it.
We are already intrinsically linkedto the rest of existence.
(32:40):
Flowing and evolving with it.
Every year, Western science is finding outmore and more
how true this is, which it initiallydid not set out to prove.
Maybeanother way of thinking about the question
how do we belong to the world ishow do you belong to a place?
How do you feel at home there?
How do you treat the rest of lifeas family?
(33:04):
These are questionswe all need to answer in our own way.
It's not about finding the right answer.
It's finding the one that fitswith where we are
and who we are.
A couple of years ago,I got a text from my friend
that said they were finally developingAshbourne Dam.
(33:25):
I knew this day would come,but I guess part of me
still hopedwe'd wake up in time to find another way.
I hadn't lived in Philly since childhoodand my parents had moved away too.
But I knew I had to drive downback to the land
between the endless mountainsand Pine Barrens and see it for myself.
(33:46):
I tried to emotionally prepare,but my heart still sank when I came to
the intersection.
The thickets and thorns were gone.
The golf course turned
meadow was now a desolate dirtpile stretching for half a mile.
Cookie cutter houses were being installed.
It was a weekendand the place seemed empty.
So I walked like a ghost to the wasteland.
(34:06):
Recording videos on my phoneas I went, Oh, shoot,
there's a bulldozer here.
You see me?
The guy in the bulldozerturned off his engine and walked over.
The kid in me felt caught red handed.
I guess I never have beenallowed to be here anyway,
(34:28):
but this guy didn't shoot me away.
I think he was happyto take a break and talk.
So what's the plan for this area?
It's going to be a development. Housing.
How long?
These are all houses like everywhere.You see these blue signs?
Yeah,they're all singles, lots housing, lots
have houses off of this house,
(34:49):
everything else
goes all the way.
When I was a teenager and it was abandonedhere, I would come to my friends
and we would explore.
And it was like such a special place.
And so I grew uplike my house was on a dead end street.
It was woods all the way backinto the next industrial park.
(35:11):
So it was probably half the size of thisand it was great
and Industrial Parkcame in and bought out the buildings.
And so yeah, now you've got trucks up anddown the street and everybody in and out.
It's crazy and how it is.
Somehowtalking to that guy helped a little.
(35:35):
This was literally a dudedestroying the place I loved,
but I knew he wasn't my enemy.
We're all just stuckenacting the same old story.
As I was leaving
Ashbourne, I stop on your golfcourse asphalt path.
It started to fissure and crackhalf my lifetime before.
(35:56):
And now a young pine treegrew in the cracks.
Its needles almost totally coveredthe pavement that it was slowly
shaking off.
There are cracks all around us
in the restrictive systems we've built,and then the mythologies we tell
in those spots, new life grows.
(36:18):
I remember that Ashbourne was notjust the old country club or what grew up.
Once it was abandoned, Ashbourne was this
the crack in the concrete
and what grows in that opening?
And I realized
Ashbourne is everywhere.
(36:40):
If we as a species
are to continue our journey in the world,we must change the story we're enacting
one that doesn't view us
as the master species,but as a member of the community of life.
It's up to each of usto answer the question
of how we enact this storyin our lifetime.
Our change mindswill lead to a change world.
(37:04):
It won't happen instantly.
But give it time and it'll grow.
In a sense,Ishmael was just the beginning.
Daniel Quinn wrote new books,each delving deeper than the last, like
the story of BeMy Ishmael and Beyond Civilization.
(37:27):
We'll explore these as well.
Further down the road.
But in 2018,after struggling with his health
for several years, Daniel Quinnpassed away.
It was actually from pneumonia,the same fate
he'd written for Ishmaelall those years earlier.
He was 82.
Daniel Quinn dedicated so much of his lifeto sharing a vision for our journey.
(37:51):
Where we go now
is up to us.
Thanks for listening.
There's one person out there who witnessed
the ideas in Ishmael take form firsthand.
Without her help, they would have neverbeen shared with the world.
That person is DanielQuinn's wife of 50 years.
(38:11):
Renee, on the next episode of HumanNature Odyssey,
Renee will join us for herfirst ever interview,
and we'll get to hear herinvaluable insight,
perspective and storiesthat have yet to be shared.
Until next time, where do you seethe cracks in our mythology
and what grows there?
(38:32):
Talk to you soon.
If you'd like to support Human NatureOdyssey, please share it with a friend.
Subscribe wherever you enjoy your podcastsand check out our Patreon.
If you're hungry for more on these topics,that's where you'll find it.
We have interviews,
bonus guests, additional writings,transcripts of episodes and audio extras.
(38:53):
If you believe in what we're doing hereand want to help
keep it going in the future,your support helps make that possible.
Our theme music is Celestial SodaPop by Ray Lynch.
You can find the link in our show notes.
And thank you to Jesse,Stephen, Michael, Gary, Coby, Fig, Dan
and of courseour voice actors for this episode on
and then Indian.
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