May 19, 2025 • 57 mins
Deer management extends far beyond the lush green food plots that dominate hunting magazines and outdoor television. With expert guest Tom Byers, we explore the comprehensive approach to whitetail habitat improvement that will transform how you manage your hunting property.
Tom shares his extensive background in deer nutrition and property management, developed through years of professional experience with deer farming and collaboration with leading whitetail biologists. He reveals why your prime food plot location might not be where you think - those convenient logging landings and clearings often lack the vital topsoil needed for productive plantings. We discuss the critical importance of soil testing, proper pH management, and why "lime first, then fertilize" should be every food plotter's mantra.
Perhaps most surprising to many hunters is Tom's revelation about forest management. A properly timed winter timber harvest that allows for spring stump sprouts can provide equivalent nutrition to a cultivated food plot - with significantly less cost and labor. We explore the strategic placement of nutritional plots versus kill plots, optimal plot designs that force deer movement, and how three-dimensional electric fencing can protect smaller plots until hunting season.
With summer planting season approaching, this episode delivers actionable insights whether you're managing hundreds of acres or just a small parcel. From soil selection to plot protection, we cover the fundamentals that will maximize your property's deer-holding potential while avoiding common and costly mistakes. The chainsaw might just be your deer herd's best friend after all!
Check us out on Facebook and instagram Hunts On Outfitting, and also our YouTube page Hunts On Outfitting Podcast. Tell your hunting buddies about the podcast if you like it, Thanks!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
this is hunt sun outfitting podcast.
I'm your host and rookie guide,ken marr.
I love everything hunting theoutdoors and all things
associated with it, from stories, tattoos.
You'll find it here.
Welcome to the podcast.
All right, thanks for tuninginto this week's episode.
(00:32):
We appreciate it, as always.
So, for a lot of you listening,when I say managing your
property for deer, most peoplethe first thing that comes to
mind is a lush, green, tall foodplot, planted with all the good
stuff you could think of.
But what would that be?
Where would it be and how big?
(00:53):
What do you have in it?
All kinds of questions.
When do you even plant it?
Do you even need one?
Well, all those questions andmuch more will be answered by
today's guest, tom Byers.
With Tom's knowledge and plentyof his own hands-on experience,
he delves into some of thebasics of food plots for us, and
(01:14):
we talk about not only greengrass and dirt plots, but how
proper forest management canprovide more food for deer and
keep them on your property thanany field you can grow.
With summer planting, startingnow or getting ready to, you're
not going to want to miss thisone.
Also, along with planningthings out for your success,
(01:35):
your dog food should be noexception If you're planning out
for a successful trainingseason for your best friend.
To get them ready for somegreat fall hunts, they got to be
eating right.
That's why I proudly feed andrecommend a nook shook dog food
with their locally sourcedingredients, high energy content
and a taste your dog will love.
(01:56):
It's definitely worth talkingto your local reseller, which
can easily be found throughtheir website.
Go on nookshookcom.
Type in your address.
A reseller will pop up in yourarea with over.
I think it's 800 across northamerica.
Guaranteed there's going to besomeone near you.
(02:16):
Also, for the canadianslistening to this that are, you
know, do the americans have allthe great guns and magazines and
this and that they got a lot?
Yeah, but we also have one forourselves.
It's the Canadian Access toFirearms.
This is a magazine that theywill send to you.
Request it.
What's in the magazine?
(02:37):
It's all kinds of gun articlesbuying, all the shows that are
going on in Canada, tips,how-tos stories.
It's all in there Great guns,from new stuff to antiques.
It's for the gun and outdoorenthusiasts and Americans and
people from other countries.
I think you guys actually enjoythe magazine as well.
You can order off of it.
(02:58):
I do enjoy going through itevery time I get it in the mail.
And if you guys are alsolooking to reach out to us, you
can on Facebook Hunts onOutfitting or by email,
huntsonoutfitting at gmailcom.
All right, let's talk to Tom.
Yeah, so, tom, I mean it'sgreat.
(03:19):
We just went out and we were onmy uncle's property and then I
showed you my food plot and it'sgreat to have boots on the
ground and someone with yourknowledge and expertise looking
at you know how to manage itproperly for the deer and
everything.
So how did you get into, Iwouldn't say just food plots,
but deer management in general?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
I guess it was back in the 80s I guess when I
started because I was hired byFundy Deer Farms, fundy Group of
Companies and we ran about2,200 red deer on two different
operations.
So we did a lot of pasturemanagement for red deer.
And that's when I was hiredunder an NRC grant to look at
(04:07):
adapting New Zealand deerfarming to Canadian context and
we did a lot of small trials andstuff of recuperative type
feeding systems and all thatsort of stuff.
So I got into deer andnutrition a little bit more
after that and nutrition alittle bit more after that.
And then after that was done Iwent with the department and
(04:28):
then I got to know later yearsthe deer biologist Rod
Cumberland.
My brother was the furbiologist at the time.
He took over for Rod.
Rod became the deer biologistand of course I had a great
interest in deer and hunting andall that sort of stuff.
So we got talking a lot and wegot debating and then I had the
opportunity to move back to ourhome farm in 2006.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
In New Brunswick, Canada.
In New Brunswick, Canada, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
So we bought the property next door prior to that
and then dad said hey, you knowwe need a smaller house, you
need a bigger house and wouldyou like to have the farm?
And so we put the twoproperties together because they
were side by side and so we hadjust a little shy of 300 acres
there.
So at that time, I mean, I hadwoodlot management plans done.
(05:20):
I was Rod Cumberland waslooking at starting QDMA with
QDMA Canada Quality DeerManagement Association out of
the US.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Yeah, because you said it started in Georgia.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Well, I think their main base is there now.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Because for American listeners, if you're listening
you guys no one argues it hereyou guys do an excellent job of
managing deer in Canada.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Oh, great job yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
I mean it, it doesn't it doesn't really exist.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
In canada there's some landowners doing it right
that try with their plot.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
But I mean as a whole we do lack on that.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah, big time yeah, I mean they had some really good
people down there.
I mean there was matt ross wasthe biologist and Kip Adams is
there and you know Joe and allthe rest of them down there.
So and then I took some youknow deer stewardship course and
that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
And I mean I had access to Rod, was good friends
with Kip Adams and Matt Ross,and so anytime I had questions,
I mean I just hit three of themup.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So and my background isruminant biology just their
ruminant nutrition.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
So dear full ruminants.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah, they are okay, they do when people say all the
deer are different and stufflike that, they act.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Deer nutrition is the same as any other new right, so
I have an animal sciencebackground but they process it,
say like a sheep, yeah, cheaperruminants, but like that, you
know the pellets come out andthey can take whole grains,
versus cats have to have crushedand stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
I mean, yeah, and, and even even with that, deer
will utilize the nutritionnutrients better from crushed
than they will whole okay, yeahlike yeah, it's, it's just that
simple.
like ruminants are all verysimilar, let's put it that way
yeah and uh, and I mean so backthen.
(07:13):
So once we got the property andqdma started in canada, we
started qdma branch in brunswick.
We got the you know the whatwas it?
The for best branch, best newbranch kind of thing and all
that sort of stuff, and we hadsome people in there that were
really keen on deer management,yep, and we had access to some
(07:35):
of the best you know biologistsin North America, if not in the
world for whitetail, and so thenwe started managing the
property for whitetailspecifically.
So now I talked to you know, atthat time QDMA was was pushing
for, you know, certainpercentages in the North for
(07:55):
perennials versus annuals andthat kind of stuff, and I said,
well, that really doesn't workfor Canada, it's too it's.
It works for northern typestates, but not northern, oh yes
, not the north short.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
We have a very short growing season.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
We got a long winter.
Our highest losses are alwaysgoing to be winter losses, so we
need to uh plant things tomanage for winter stress or late
winter stress, not even winterstress, right?
So our deer naturally in theNorthern part of the province
would migrate to wintering areasor DWAs and they would go to
(08:32):
deer wintering yards, so thedeer would concentrate in those
yards for, you know, reducedsnow depth and all the rest.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, see people from the U?
Speaker 4 (08:40):
S and they don't listen to this, they're like
what, but yeah, we get so muchsnow in areas in Canada that the
deer congregate.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
It would be over the top of the deer's head.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Yeah, they congregate together just to be able to
wear down the paths and all that.
It's a great place to hunt forsheds.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
So the southern part of the province, our deer, are
more migratory in that theywould go.
If the snow depth gets deepenough, they would migrate to a
DWA or wintering area.
If the snow drops in depth theymight migrate back, and they
might do that two or three timesover a winter period.
So they're not yarding per se.
(09:15):
For the most part, In the lastfive years we have had very easy
winters.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Yes, so they've stayed more than natural.
So they stayed more.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
So I looked at all right, how do I get those deer
in the best shape possible to gointo a winter?
And that if they leave theproperty, they will be the ones
that survive and then come back.
If the deer is going to die inin a wintering area or or yard
area, it's not going to be thedeer that are using our property
, so those deer will come back.
Yep, um, so it was acompetition thing.
(09:41):
So we started planting moretowards, like I planted just
about every food plot seed knownout there to this point.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
But how did you?
I mean, where do you begin?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
I guess is a very broad question, but and most,
most guys use what they have,use what they have.
So if you're looking at foodplots, if they get a logging
landing or a woods road or aback corner of a field.
They'll usually try to use thatbecause it's open.
They're probably the worstplaces to put food plots.
(10:17):
Let's say Okay, For the simplefact that if you're going to
look at food plots, you want toplan on where you want it on the
property.
You need to look at the soilthat you have, because you want
good soils because it doesn'tgrow on on.
You know mineralized soil, yeah, you want good topsoil and
(10:38):
fertility and pH, so you want topick a good soil or your best
soils.
So you want to pick a good soilor your best soils, but it
needs to be huntable if you'regoing to use that for a kill
plot.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
You need to get in, get in.
You need to be able to get inand access it.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
It's the same as accessing a stand or anything
like that the wind see where thewinds are going yeah all that
stuff needs to be taken intoaccount where you're going to
put your food plot.
If you're just going to put itwherever you can, then you then
it might not be a huntable plot.
Now, if you're doing anutrition plot or a large plot,
let's say over five acres, wherethe deer are going to
(11:13):
congregate to feed at night orlate and usually you try to
centralize that, A lot of guyswill try to centralize that in
the center of the property andthen put your kill plots outside
around that so that you'redrawing those deer through those
towards your central foodsource.
So the kill plots will bemoving through earlier.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
So they're going to go through your kill plot to get
to the nutritional plot Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
So your kill plots are going to.
You don't want to hold themthere.
You want those deer movingthrough, stopping having a bite,
checking for a doe or whateverit's about, and then moving past
.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Okay, so there's more than a food plot's, not just a
food plot.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
A food plot's not just a food plot.
And some guys don't even likeif you have a nutritional plot,
they say don't hunt yournutritional plots, put in a kill
plot.
A lot of guys don't have themoney, money and time to do that
in space.
So whatever plot they put in,that's their, their plot.
Yeah, so, um, you'll talk aboutyou know, the poor man's plot
and all that sort of stuff,where you're in the woods and
(12:12):
you're going to use a rake or atiller and you know it's going
to be in the by yours.
There's too much canopy coverand all that kind of stuff, like
some guys will say oh well, Igot know they'll use, so you got
to pick your spot, pick yourbest soils, if you can you?
have to look at what you havefor equipment.
(12:33):
If you only have a rake and atiller, you're not going to be
putting in a five acre foodnutritional plot and a kill plot
behind it and all that sort ofstuff and stacking deer up
behind it.
You have to have realisticexpectation of what you can do.
You have to look at what yourneighbors are doing.
If your neighbor has, you know,20 acres of corn out there, you
planting three acres of corn isnot going to help you.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
You're going to have to want to put something else,
because that's going to be thenutritional plot.
You use that as a nutritionalplot and then you have a kill
plot on your property.
That is something else.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Plant something.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Plant something unique that's not readily
available in the area that youknow they're going to like, and
the size of your plot.
Like guys look at size.
So then you say, all right, Ihave an acre or I have three
acres or I have an eighth of anacre.
If you plant a highly preferredfood source on an eighth of an
acre, they're going to wipe itit's going to wipe, it'll never
make season.
My first food plot, I plantedthree quarters of an acre of and
(13:25):
I heard soybeans was great.
So I planned three quarters ofacre soybeans.
Our deer had never seen soybeanso it got up about a foot and
then the deer found the soybeansand they realized they like
soybeans.
Yeah, in three weeks I had nosoybeans left that field and
that was three quarters of anacre well, I've heard I think
I've heard you say this before.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Somebody said that you'd said it.
Is that a big mistake?
A lot of people make with foodplots is making it too small.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
You're not looking at the deer density in the area
right, because I mean if youhave a like, if you got a 20
acre hay field there and it hasperennials and semannials and
all that sort of stuff, that'sgreat.
If you're going to put asixteenth of an acre kill plot
behind it somewhere and you'vegot 30 or 40 deer per square
kilometer or mile either, or Imean that's not going to work.
(14:16):
It's not going to work unlessyou put a highly unpreferred
food in there.
Yeah.
Like guys are saying oh, I havegreat luck with cereal rye,
that's because nothing touchesit, the deer don't like it.
It'll be green the longest, sure, and when everything else is
gone it'll be green.
So the deer might hit it then.
But you're not getting itduring the early part of the
season or anything like that.
(14:37):
Like there's all kinds ofpreferred foods out there, so
you have to adjust the size ofyour food plot with how
preferred the food's going to be.
I tried to put a six of an acreplot of alfalfa in.
I can't get it to grow becausethe deer just eat it.
So and I worked that food plot.
(14:57):
Like we cleared the food plot,we soil tested.
Not many people, not a lot ofguys.
Soil test, was that where?
Speaker 1 (15:04):
you begin.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
You begin with soil testing after you pick the spot,
soil test then you're going tosay, all right, what design am I
going to do this food plot ifyou're going to just make a
square or a circle or you know,what you really want is is some
type of spoke system or orobligate oblong system like a
hourglass or something like that, that the bucks can't just walk
down on the downside and andscent, check it out for does and
(15:27):
never come out in the plot atall.
Right.
So if you're and most peopleare are putting food plots in to
shoot a buck or to grow bucks,so you want to pick a spot that
you can hunt, you want to pick afood plot design that that
allows it to be hunted well, andthe deer are going to come in,
(15:47):
buck's going to come in to look,or he has to come in and then
move around in order to seeeverything that's in that plot.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Something to get them out in the open.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
He's got to.
You got to pull them out.
Yeah, like I've had one squareplot uh that I put in and I've
only seen one good buck on thatplot when I've been hunting it
and he never came out in theplot.
I caught the movement down inthe corner and he come out.
He looked out in the plot andhe could see everything in the
(16:16):
plot and he turned around,walked away.
Yeah, if he can check, sent,check that plot or visually
check that plot, he doesndoesn't need to and he never has
to step out.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
He's not going to yeah and expose himself.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
So, if you want, if you want to, you know, change it
up so that he has to come out,or he has to look out, or, or
you know you have to make ithuntable.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
So then once you do that andyou've got good soil and all
that sort of stuff and you say,all right, well, do a soil test
the biggest thing in at leastthis area in the north our soils
(16:53):
are very acidic.
Now they don't have thatproblem.
In some places down south it'sthe opposite.
But in the north, in NewBrunswick, our soils are very
acidic so we might pull out soilout of a forested area.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
It might be four, three, up to five With the soil
health, I mean, what are youlooking for for pH?
You said about seven.
Is that Usually everythingthose things can grow into?
Seven?
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Everything grows.
Let's say six and above.
Okay, most all of our food plotseeds is going to grow at six
and above.
It's going to do best at sixand a half.
To, let's say 6.8 is probablythe pinnacle.
Okay, once you hit between thatsix, five and seven, then if
(17:39):
you're too low, then a lot ofthe nutrients can't be utilized
by the plant.
Things get tied up in the soilBecause think of it as a magnet.
If you've got magnets and it'sthe soil, particles will attract
the nutrients, let's sayphosphorus or whatever and they
(18:00):
bind them.
Let's say you have, you know,know, your aluminum and iron in
the soil is going to bind, uh,your other nutrients.
So as you get a higher ph theybind less.
And then as you, if you get toohigh, there's other things that
that bind up your nutrients.
(18:21):
Yeah, so you have to hit thatsweet spot, and usually between
6.5, 6.8.
6.8 you only need really forthings like alfalfa, something
that is very sensitive to thatnutrient.
Other things like oats, you canget away with lower pHs.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah, they're growing asphalt.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah, you give oats enough water and you can grow
them on top of the soil, kind ofthing, yeah, now, that's not
ideal, yeah, but you understand.
So that's six, five, six, eightis is probably our we'd like to
see it in there, yeah, and soif I take new ground out of a
woodlot, first thing you do isget a soil sample, add your lime
(19:09):
, you know, add your nutrientsto your seeding um lime, our ag
lime, takes about 18 months it'sover a year before you realize
the full really potential?
okay, it depends on how finethat's ground, yeah.
So ag lime takes about 18months to to have full impact.
So that's why they say don'ttest soil test every year.
Yeah, soil test every other,every third year, kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Okay, I didn't know that before.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
So pelletized lime, hydrated lime, all that sort of
stuff.
It works faster.
It doesn't usually last as long.
Okay.
Because it takes longer to egg.
Lime takes longer to be fullyutilized.
But our soils, our heaviersoils, will take more lime but
they'll hold your ph longer.
So your light soils will takeless lime to adjust, but it it
(19:53):
would need more lime more often.
So I we have heavy soil so ittakes about one ton of lime to
move it about 0.3 on my soil.
Okay for, okay For a lot of mysoils, yep.
So like some guys say, oh well,I only need two ton, well, I
need eight.
On some stuff I pull out, whichis a massive amount for some
(20:14):
like guys down south or out inthe central.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Yeah, Like that's unheard of, yeah, but for our
soils here I mean that would bea normal and that's unheard of,
yeah, but for our soils here Imean that would be a normal, and
for people, I mean what thelime does with the acidity, it
just helps more neutralize it.
It neutralizes that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
The acidity.
So then your soils can.
If your soils or your plantscan then use the nutrients that
are available in the soil, Itell people guys always say,
well, I'm packing down you knowa ton, half a ton of fertilizer.
Well, if your plant can't takethat fertilizer up and it can't
(20:49):
utilize those nutrients.
You're throwing money away.
I always tell people lime first, then fertilize.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Okay, and then, like you said, the soil test is going
to show what kind of fertilizer.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
The soil test will tell you exactly what you need.
Our soil tests are all.
Go to an analytical lab andthey will tell you have an S2
soil test and it tells you allthe nutrients and PK
requirements.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
It'll give you your lime requirements and it'll give
you soil saturation stuff likethat Cause you hear guys do that
Like well, you know, I gotfertilized, I got my food plot
all fertilized.
They never question the law,they never know.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
They don't know the pH and they just throw
fertilizer and it's just theirown good after bad.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Yeah, you've got to know what it needs Make sure
that you get a soil test.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
That's the first thing you're going to do.
And then apply your lime asearly as you can.
And if that's the fall before,great.
If it's the next spring, thendo it.
Then yeah, because it will work, it's work forward for you.
And then the first year, like,don't expect to plant an alfalfa
in there because you're not.
Yeah, like when I did a foodplot we've picked a site, we
(22:03):
picked a design, we cleared theground, got the soil test we
limed it, and the first year Iput in, I think it was- just
clover anda little bit of oats.
Okay, a little bit of oats.
So that was the first year,because the soil wasn't sweet
enough or neutral enough inorder to grow alfalfa that I
wanted to put in there.
So I did that for a year, andthen I did Nebraska the next
year and then the third year Iput in there.
So I did that for a year andthen I did Nebraska the next
(22:24):
year and then the third year Iput in my alfalfa.
Mind you, it was plot.
That was when I learned plotwas too small.
Yeah, because we run a fairlyhigh deer density for our
property.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah, or our deer population around in general,
has been.
It's good Doing well, yeah, inthe south.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Yeah, so we actually need to shoot a few does this
year?
We've been building our herd.
Over the last number of yearsWe've had easy winters.
The last five have been great.
Yes, so our losses have beenminimal the last five.
So once you get your soilsample, it will tell you on
there how much lime you need toadd and then you can decide what
(23:06):
type of lime you want to addfor how long you know.
If you want instant results in,you know, go out and get
pelletized lime, but you'repaying double for it kind of
thing, or whatever it works outto.
Ag lime is is easy to get here,it's effective.
You could get you know, but itdoes take a while to adjust.
(23:27):
But that food plot presumablyyou're going to have for you
know forever so you want tobuild those soils and pick the
best soils.
I mean you can't if you havegood top soil?
That saves a lot of mistakes.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Let's put it that way , but get your soil sample and
get your fertilizer.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
If you have good topsoil, that saves a lot of
mistakes.
But get your soil sample andget your fertilizer and the
thing is, then you're going tosay, all right, what am I going
to plant?
Everybody just wants to knowwhat I'm going to plant.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
They don't care about the fertilizer.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
They just say well, I threw down some 10-10-10 that I
had in the garage, kind ofthing.
They didn't do a soil sample,they don't know what the pH is
and they just don't want to knowwhat do I plant and what you
plant is a loaded question.
Is a loaded question becauseall that other stuff depends on
it.
Yeah, it's how big your plot is.
How much pressure do you haveon other deer?
Where do your neighbors grow?
Speaker 1 (24:17):
What are?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
your neighbors doing.
All those questions you need toanswer before you say what am I
going to throw down there?
And it might be.
You know I plant.
I'm down to basically three,maybe four annuals and a couple
perennials, like out ofeverything I've ever tried.
I got down to those because Ibuild for winter survivability.
(24:42):
I don't build, you know, forsummer nutrition.
There's all kinds of green outthere.
We do a lot of habitatmanagement through the winter
and if you're not managing yourwoods there's not a whole lot of
sense putting in food plots.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah, so that's what we were talking about when we
were at my uncle's propertybecause around him that had been
cleared four or five years ago.
And then he's got a spotcleared put in a food plot and
then, uh, you were saying abouthow important I mean when people
think deer management, foodplots.
You're thinking get the tractorout there, four-wheeler,
whatever planting soil, turningit over, but you were saying the
, the, chainsaw is the deer'sbest friend, like I know.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
People say you know food plots and and the and you
know.
If you look at how much foodplot you're supposed to have
versus how much woodlot you haveis, you know that one to three
percent and if you're going formaximum production is five
percent of your land base shouldbe in food plot.
Well, there's a wholemanagement of the woodlot before
(25:42):
you get to that one fivepercent and now you can do it at
the same time.
No question, like you can sayall right, well, I'm going to
manage the woodlot and I'm goingto put in food plots, but if
you're not managing the woodlot,putting in an in a half acre
food plot or an acre food plotdoes nothing for deer.
It might be a fine kill plotfor you or something like that,
(26:06):
but it's doing nothing for yourdeer.
For the herd in general so youcan take.
They've done studies where ifyou did winter cutting of a of
your woodlot, all thosenutrients from from your tree
after it goes dormant up here itgoes down into the root system.
You cut those in the wintertime.
(26:26):
The sprouts that you stump,sprouts that you get the next
year, that those the nutritionavailable from an acre of clear
cut winter's clear cut is equal,will equal what you can get
from a food plot.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Yeah, see, I did not know that.
So you're saying with myuncle's land, where it was cut
four to five years ago, you saidthe best thing you could do is
mulch it.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
And then let it come back again.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Just as much well, if not more, than growing a food
plot in the soil.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
A lot less work too yeah.
A lot less money, a lot lesswork and you should be putting
in clear, small, clear cuts,doing planting like I I plant
around my food plots.
Now I put I always put a littlebit of hired mass, soft mass in
around the food plots.
Um, you know, on all my foodplots I think I've, I've done
(27:19):
that now because I it just addsto the draw power of the plot.
Yeah, um, I don't want deerstaying there forever, but a lot
of my, my kill plots are fairlylarge too.
So I kind of use them as acrossover between nutrition and,
uh, kill plots, because some ofmy kill plots would be a
(27:41):
kilometer from our mainnutrition plot, or our ag fields
.
So it's at the backside of theproperty.
Yeah.
So I don't expect those deer to, I expect those deer to use
some of those plots as as asnutrition plot.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Yeah, and I mean, I never thought about it much.
Like you said, it depends onyou know your time, space, money
, this base money, this, thatand everything else.
But about like when I took youto show you mine how I had yeah,
like a kill plot, and then Ishowed you there's this other
area where the deer eating andall that, and if they let it
grow up, they're going to bed inthere and then I'm going to
bump them.
You're going to bump them goinginto my stand, but if I keep it
mowed, you know, brush cut.
(28:16):
They're eating there, so that'stheir nutritional plot, and
then they pass through your killplot to there.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
yeah, they're not bedding there and going in
reverse.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Yes, yeah, so yeah, stuff like that.
People, I know you think likeoh, I'm just going to manage
deer, I'm going to make a foodplot.
Yeah Well, there's a bit to it.
It doesn't matter where you arein the world.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah, the biggest thing is, is they don landing?
It's a terrible spot to put afood plot.
It's great that it's open, butusually they pushed off all the
topsoil into the surroundingbush yeah, and because you want
(28:53):
to get down to hard ground on alog landing yeah.
So unless you're going to bringin topsoil to put back there or
pull that topsoil that theytook off back out, you're going
to have a terrible food plotthat's going to take decade
before you get anything growing.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Well, that's the big thing too.
That a lot of people don'trealize is like all right, I'm
going to clear this area in mywoods to put a food plot in, and
they don't know that.
You know, the bulldoze isprobably the worst thing you can
do.
The worst thing you could do isbulldoze that right, but I mean
the stumps, the milk, becauseall that organic, really good
topsoil is right, it's aroundthe stump.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
So when I clear a food plot, I don't bring in a
dozer.
That's like you said.
That's probably the worst thingyou do.
Get an excavator with a thumb,you pull those stumps out, shake
them, turn them over, leavethem.
Now a lot of guys will want thefood plot instantaneous
gratification.
You clear it, you get rid ofall the stuff.
(29:47):
You pile it all up or you pushit out in the bushes and you
lime it, fertilize it, whateveryou do, and get your food plot.
But a lot of your topsoil isyour gold.
I mean, that's what grows yourplants, that's what keeps humans
alive.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Right, it's topsoil Like.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
I had one guy.
He said oh my geez, my foodplot came great.
It was a foot tall and he was ahead of Braska.
I said, yeah, but it should beup to your waist.
I mean, they don't realize howmuch they're not getting out of
it yeah.
As long as it's green, most guys.
(30:27):
Basically, before I plant afood plot yeah, that I do.
Now I take my time, I turn thestumps, I overwinter it, I shake
them off the spring and thefreezing, thawing and all that
sort of stuff.
They come out just like youknow, beachwood and then like a
driftwood, let's say they'rethat clean in the spring because
I roll them a few times withthe tractor and then I take them
off.
All that top soil is then there.
All your organic matter is thenstill there.
You put a bulldozer through andpush it all out.
(30:47):
You've just in in most placeshere, I won't say a lot of
places, if they have deep topsoils or or deep upper layers,
you know you can't do that, buthere our top soil is very
shallow.
We've got inches in the woods,yeah, and if you push all that
out it takes decade or twodecades, let's say, to build
(31:08):
that soil back up and put stuffback in there.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
I don't think a lot of people realize the value of
that.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
No, and that's the problem, they don't realize the
value that they're getting ridof Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
So so if you're able to keep that topsoil, there
instead of all the lime.
You maybe just need to add somefertilizer.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
It saves you thousands and thousands of
dollars and years and years andyears of work.
Yeah, because once you take itoff, you're trying to build it
all back up.
Yeah.
And you need and you know, thefurther down you go and you get
your soil.
I mean you're into mineralizedsoils, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
You're not building that.
What to I mean?
In how close to proximity doyou think it is important to
have water, a water sourcenearby?
Speaker 2 (31:54):
See down south and stuff they always talk about
putting in water holes andputting in, you know, tubs and
ponds and all this stuff.
New Brunswick is inundated withwater.
They don't have to go far, theydon't have to go anywhere to
get water.
There is springs, ponds, creeks, you know, runoffs, everything
(32:17):
in here.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
But for somebody that's not.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
For somebody in the south, or something like that
you know, water is as good as ais as good a draw as anything.
Okay, yeah.
Especially in a dry, in adrought condition summer.
We don't have drought here perse, like we might get a few
weeks that we don't get rain.
Yeah.
And you may be, you know, alittle bit more limited on where
they go for water.
(32:39):
It might be a femoral stream orsomething may dry up, but other
than that there's still pocketsin springs and everything else.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
So if you can have it being for people listening that
it does get a little dry, ifyou can have your food plot near
water, it is quite crucialyou'd find to keep them in that
area.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
It goes hand in hand If you want to keep them in that
area.
It goes hand in hand.
If you want to keep them in thearea, yeah, see.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Our vegetation, though, is so lush, it's so lush
.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Water's not an important thing for me.
I'll put it that way.
I have three ponds on theproperty, no question.
We also have two small creeksrunning down through.
We have umpteen number ofsprings on the property.
The vegetation is even indrought condition, is still
(33:30):
packed with water.
Yep, like we don't have anissue with water.
Now, if you want to add that toa plot area to make it one more
thing that they don't have towalk down over the hill for,
then that's fine.
And, like I said, I've stillgot three ponds on the property
and they're all located withinspitting distance of food plots.
(33:55):
Well, I did it for habitat.
So the things associated inaddition to deer management,
kind of thing.
We have a DU pond there.
We put in a small one, you know, off a offshoot kind of thing,
and it's next to a food plot andwe had planted apple trees
(34:15):
around it.
Okay.
So it was just another of thosedraws.
That was another thing to add.
Yeah, so we did the water withthe apple trees around it.
Okay, so it was just another ofthose draws.
That was another thing to add.
Yeah, so we did the water withthe apple trees, we planted the,
let's say, an acre and aquarter of food plot and then
there was some old apple treesthere.
We cleaned it all around andthen I took another half acre on
the other side of open ground.
(34:35):
That was early successionalfield and we turned it and and
planted in oaks and you know,all those things working
together make an ideal draw area.
And then we have on the lowerside of that there's about five
acres of early successionalfield.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
So early successional field is.
You know, I see all those otherthings as important as putting
in food plots per se and habitatmanagement.
If you're not managing yourhabitat, then putting in a food
plot is one part of an overallplan, so it's just one small
(35:18):
portion of that.
Are they important?
Sure, sure.
Do they add nutrition?
Certainly can um they're.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Do you find people put too much emphasis?
Speaker 2 (35:26):
on yes, just that yeah, okay they emphasize food
plots because it's the buzzword.
Yeah, they don't emphasizefawning cover, winter habitat,
you know um early success,growth, all those other things
that are as more important thanhaving a food plot.
Yeah, but guys want the foodplot, they want something they
(35:50):
can see and say I did that yeah.
That's my spot.
One thing I don't tell anybodynow that we're on air, guys will
want to plant in the woods.
Yeah.
They'll want to stand out in thewoods and they'll buy a throw
(36:10):
and grow let's say Deer on thebag.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And nothing grows withoutsunlight, without fertility,
without you know proper.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
You get some shoots come up, though They'll call
that a success and that's asuccess.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Yeah, but I mean, that's not a draw no.
I mean, and it's always theryegrass or cereal rye or
something's coming up.
It's not your.
You know you're not gettingyour nice clovers and brassicas
and stuff, all that coming out.
It's.
It's the idiot proof stuff,because there's stuff in there
that will grow with low pH.
(36:49):
There's stuff in there that'llgrow with higher moisture soils,
yeah, but unless it getssunlight, nothing grows.
Unless there's seed to soilcontact, nothing grows.
So they'll go out there, rake alittle bit, maybe throw down
some fertilizer, and if they canget a little bit of sunlight in
they'll get a little bit ofgreen sheen.
Yeah.
(37:09):
I call it green sheen kind ofthing, but that's not a draw.
No.
You're better off to takesomething like hostas, plant
them out around your deer standand protect them until deer
season and then take your cagingoff your hostas, because hostas
will grow in shade.
Okay, yeah.
So what are hostas?
Hostas are what your wife wasgoing to plant out in the flower
(37:30):
garden along the front of thehouse there, the big leaf kind
of vegetative plant.
Okay, yeah, but they will growin shade.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
So if I was going to do anything in in the woods at
the deer stand.
That's what I I plant hostasall around.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
My food plots too, so around the outside, that's a
good idea, yeah because deerlike hosta.
They grow in in with minimalsunlight they won't.
They won't flower and produceseed without sunlight, but I
mean they will certainly grow.
So if you protect those and andaround your deer stand, then
you got a green plant.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Yeah, the deer, like it's just another one of those
added things, yeah speaking, youknow you doing, talking about
that, when I was back in I don'tknow, probably I was young,
middle school.
I uh, I remember that you knowyou read the hunting magazines
and everything and make a foodplot and I bought, yeah, like
it's like walk and toss kind ofstuff and I did, I went out with
the rake and I scraped up thisarea where there's like a little
patch of clearing in the woodsand uh, had like a bucket I'd
(38:27):
gotten of lime and I just putthat down and put that out.
And remember I was, I was sothrilled like holy cow, like
stuff's coming up, but it was,you know, as long as my finger,
yeah, maybe, and I considersuccess.
Yeah, I mean the deer wreckedit overnight, right, basically,
and you know, realizing as youget older that was completely
useless.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
And I mean, there's all kinds of shows that they're
doing the poor man's food plotand they'll go in and burn and
spray, rake it up and throw itdown and, you know, do a little
green sheen, yeah um and if ifyou're happy with that and
that's what you want, thenthat's fine.
But the more work, the moreeffort that you put into a food
(39:08):
plot, the better your plot'sgoing to be.
There's no sense planting anacre if you could get the same
amount of food in half an acreyeah, yeah, yeah, exactly so.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
But yeah, like I said , I don't think people take into
account all the other stuffthat goes with it, but the food
plots nonetheless are a greatasset.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
I say to have just another tool in the bill.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
It's another tool.
Another tool, yeah, um, inmanaging deer or or killing deer
.
Um, managing deer or or killingdeer?
Um, and I, I, it depends, likea lot of guys will say, well,
what do I plant?
And it really depends on allthe other factors.
Like you can never tellsomebody, just throw down clover
(39:51):
I mean you can clover?
is clover one of your more uh,fail proof kind of it is for
this area because we're in thenorth and and and clovers do
well because they're cool season, perennial or annual, yeah, um
so we do well up here and wehave lots of moisture yeah, like
I said, moisture and cooltemperatures.
(40:11):
Clovers do great.
Um so clover is one of our morefoolproof.
They say it's harder toestablish, but clover is
established really well up here,Now, whether you go with an
annual clover or perennialclover, whether you go with red
clover or white clover or allSykes or whatever personally I
(40:34):
go with, usually go with theLadino.
Clovers are ranked by height,not by species, so much Okay.
Yeah, so you have your reallyshort ones, like your Dutch that
you see on the lawn, and thenyou'll have your Duran and stuff
that are kind of mid, and thenyou have your ladinos, which are
tall.
Yeah, so usually you decide youknow, what you want.
(40:58):
And red clovers aren't aspreferred as white and all sex
is a little bit between the twokind of thing.
But it was developed for, let'ssay, poor soils.
Um, white clover does reallywell in wet ground or it can be
flooded back and for shortperiods of time and that kind of
stuff and uh there's some likethe I think it was the berms
(41:22):
we've seen.
Okay that they're talking.
Now that you know you can putin wetter areas and it's more of
an annual taxes annual.
So it just depends on what youwant to do.
But clover's a good, you know.
Basic food plot item to do wellhere, and it just depends on
(41:43):
what your how much ground youhave Clovers, like I said
clovers would be my preferredperennial after alfalfa.
If I have the ground, the pH andstuff, you're planting alfalfa,
I'm planting alfalfa.
If I have the ground, the pHand stuff, you're planting
alfalfa, I'm planting alfalfa.
There is also bird's foot treefoil, which is what's called the
(42:05):
poor man's alfalfa.
It has better attributes as faras you know disease resistance,
lower pH.
It'll grow at lower pHs, wetter, all that kind of stuff.
It's just alfalfa.
It beats alfalfa in all thoseareas, areas, but alfalfa is
much highly more preferred okay,yeah.
(42:25):
So if you can plant alfalfa evendisease and in bugs and all
that kind of stuff, I plantalfalfa.
If I can't, then um.
I look at you know clover,clover, bird's foot or and
chicory I mean all those goodones in there.
I usually like to keep mychicory If I can't mow it, I
won't add chicory.
If I can keep it mowed and keepit in the vegetative stage,
(42:46):
then I'll plant chicory in thereas well, because the deer
seemed to like it.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
Okay, on our property .
Then too, I mean, if you'relooking to build up your soil
and all that, would it be a goodidea?
Even if you could plant oats,mow that throughout the summer,
things like that, just to getthat organic matter in there
working in the soil.
If you need the organic, matter.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
I mean, a lot of guys want a food plot with, they
want to build their soil butthey don't want to give up their
food.
Yes.
So I mean I always heard youknow plant buckwheat or whatever
.
I planted buckwheat on on fairamount of ground when I first
started.
I never saw a deer in mybuckwheat.
(43:26):
I mean there's an odd nip hereand there.
It's the same as our oats, likeif, if I'm planting more highly
preferred foods, they're nottouching our small cereal grains
, stuff like that.
And then you start looking atat cereal grains in addition to
clover and stuff like that, andthen you start looking at cereal
greens in addition to cloverand stuff like that.
Guys are always talking thatstarted in agriculture because
(43:47):
it was planting clover and thenyou would add oats as a cover
crop over top because they said,well, it adds shade, shade, it
keeps the moisture soil, allthat kind of stuff.
But and then they they'veadapted that into food plotting
for deer.
(44:08):
The trouble is that grain cropwas supposed to come off.
It was supposed to be cut.
Um, because what happens iswhen you come into the winter, I
never had a better smother cropthan when I planted oats.
If you let it mature out, plantin spring, let it mature out
(44:29):
and then die back.
I never had such a clean seedbed is when I planted oats heavy
and did that, yeah, so if youthink you're going to plant oats
heavy or with clover and thennext spring you're going to have
this awesome clover plot, yeah.
I have a little bit ofreservation around that.
If the deer ate it, sure.
(44:51):
Or you could take it off, sure.
Or if you go light on yourplanting, great.
But everywhere that those oatswere are going to die and create
smother on the clover andeverywhere that they were.
You have a berry patch now andweeds have as much chance of
(45:13):
taking over that spot as cloverdoes.
So you're going to deal withweeds a lot sooner.
Let's say, unless you're goingto use a heavy weed program,
unless you're going to deal withweeds a lot sooner, let's say
unless you're going to use aheavy weed program, unless
you're going to usegrass-specific herbicide or
something like that so that theclover can take over those spots
and fill.
So I don't like plant.
When I do clover, I do clover.
(45:36):
I don't put in small grains andstuff, so the deer have
something extra to have thatfall, or whatever the case may
be.
I plant.
When I do clover, I do clover,I don't.
I don't put in small grains andstuff, okay, so the deer have
something extra to have thatfall or whatever the case may be
.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Yeah, like we can spring plant clover up here just
fine.
Yes, you don't need to fallplant clover here, yeah, okay,
yeah, that's interesting too, soyou don't mix.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
I don't, I like.
I would much rather take a foodplot, strip it in two or three
and strip plant stuff than Iwilled multiple species, because
each of those seeds have theirown specific ph requirement they
have their own nutrientrequirement.
They have their own plantingdepth requirement.
And if you take the you know Idon't like saying idiot proof
(46:18):
bag, but the kitchen sink bag,and throw all that stuff out
there, something will grow sure,because no matter how deep you
go or how shallow you go, or howmuch moisture it got or how
much the fertilizer you put on,something in there is, is, is so
it's gonna grow yeah, 90 of it.
(46:40):
Won't maybe, but something willgrow.
Yeah, I don't want to wastetime, fertilizer all that kind
of stuff, when I plant something.
I want that specific.
I want clover to come, I wantalfalfa to come, I want corn to
come, I want soybeans field pea,whatever it is.
Now I will mix, you know fieldfield pea in something else and
oats or whatever.
(47:01):
But I mean, I'm very, I knowwhat I want out of it.
I don't want this general mixthat I mean.
Mixing brassicas together is afine idea.
You can have you know turnipgrape kale.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
That's fine.
Yeah, I mean, if you're goingto do stuff like like that or
you have a specific goal in mind.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
I mean, if you're going to put in an early, you
know, some clover with or with alight oats or something like
that, just to give the deersomething because you want them
at that time.
But I mean you have to look atthe timing when everything comes
off too.
Like why do you, when do youwant the deer there?
If you're putting in soybeans,let's say, in the spring, in May
(47:43):
, they're going to be preferredthrough that fawning season kind
of thing.
You're giving the deernutrition and then they're going
to yellow off in August andthen they're going to produce
off in august and then andthey're going to produce seed,
of course, and then that's it,and the deer aren't going to
touch them after that untilthey've hardened off.
(48:05):
And then they come into thefall and and the deer are
looking for that.
The soybean, yeah, the beanitself.
There's other things likeclover.
They're going to hit early.
It's going to go dormant duringthe summer months here and it's
going to come back ongangbusters in September, yeah.
So that's a decent one.
(48:26):
But by November that'severything's gone dormant.
Everything's gone dormant by byhunting season.
So if you're looking forsomething that's going to be
there during hunting season.
You need to look, start lookingat.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
I mean, I look at the brassicas and soybeans and corn
stuff because that's going tobe there when I need it for gun
rifle season matured, maturedand and and preferred by the
deer at that stage, at that timeyeah, and looking at what
they're, what they are thinkingtheir nutrition is, because I
mean they know what they need,their nutritional levels and all
that you put cereal grain outthere and it's not going to be
(49:00):
available in november yeah yeah,not here not here yeah, I mean,
you know cereal rye is stillgoing to be green, but deer
don't like it.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
Yeah, and if you want to plant that, that's, that's
fine if you, if you have limitedspace, let's say, because you
don't want the deer hammering aneighth of an acre and it being
nothing there.
Yeah.
You could put an acre ofbrassicas in there and it took
my the deer down on our place afew years to get onto a brassica
(49:29):
.
So that's ripe kale, turnip,that kind of stuff.
It took them a few years to getonto brassica.
The first year they nevertouched it until almost spring.
Second year they starteddigging down through the snow in
December.
First year they never touched.
It's almost spring.
Second year they starteddigging down through the snow in
in december.
Third year they hit it inseason.
Now I can't keep brassica ifit's if it's early, um, if it's
(49:49):
less than an acre, yeah, I plantan acre and I'd have 14 plus
deer there every day reallyevery night, and it never made
it past august yeah oh, so, um,and that was another thing.
It was like all right, how do Ikeep, how do I plant something
like that then, now, and withthe densities that we have or we
(50:09):
want to keep, and how do I, howdo I keep that plot to the fall
when I want to hunt it?
so we started looking at, uh,three-dimensional fencing they
keep the deer, so you can getsolar pack or whatever, and and
I mean it's, it's on all thehunting sites and that sort of
stuff um, I first heard about itthrough qdm, yeah and uh, and
(50:32):
they were looking at doing atrial hink down in george or
somewhere.
Anyway, I said, well, if itworks there, it'll work here.
So we actually started doingthat through agriculture for
farmers.
We did a test field that washaving high deer damage on on
field crops and found that itwould work great, yeah.
(50:54):
So I said, hey, if it'll workfor that, it'll work for food
plots.
So we we year we'll be takingthree-dimensional fence.
So if you don't know what thatis, it's just we're using solar
or electric Use like a tape,electric tape.
We use half-inch tape orthree-quarter-inch tape, I think
it's 20 millimeter or whatever.
(51:15):
There's two, it's basically twofences.
So you have inside fence whichhas two wires on it.
You run them at 18, let's say,in 36 inches, and then you come
off three feet and you'll put asecond wire at, say, 24.
So they're offset visuallylooking at them, and they're
(51:36):
offset depth.
So a deer, if it can seethrough an item, it loses depth
perception.
So if you put a solid wallthere, that whitetail, he could
jump that wall.
If you put a fence there, whathappens is they run towards the
fence, they get too close, theydon't realize how far away from
the fence they are and they'lljump and then they jump into the
fence.
So when we did raceways at thedeer farm, the raceway itself is
(52:04):
fencing and then we come into asolid wall and then the solid
walls have to be higher.
Speaker 1 (52:10):
Okay, just because the deer can jump in, yep.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
You get a deer inside a fence and try to get it out
if it's in the wrong spot, likethey just keep jumping into the
fence.
So, um, with thatthree-dimensional fence, the
deer have to be able to come out, see it, assess it and then
turn away from it.
And the best thing to do isbait them as well with some
(52:36):
tinfoil and peanut butter orsomething like that, so they
touch that nice wet nose on it.
Yeah, but don't put it righttight to the woods, because if
you put it tight to the woodsand the deer comes out on a deer
trail and it comes right up tothe fence right off the bat,
sees the fence stops and thenthe one behind it touches it on
the rear end or something likethat, and it jumps that fence,
which is an automatic reactionto it.
Yeah, automatic reaction to it.
(53:00):
Yeah.
And once they get in, becausethe deer behind is going to
panic and say, oh, I got to getin there, I got to get in there
and then they, they run throughyour fence and then you get deer
in there.
It it's a psychological barrier, it's not physical, right?
Yes, so you want the deer to beable to assess it and move away
from it without jumping it.
So and it works great if you doeverything right.
Yeah, it does not work good ifyou've already had let the deer
(53:21):
get into that crop.
You want to put it up beforethe deer start using the crop?
Okay, Because if the deer havestarted using the crop.
They know there's food in therethey want.
They're going to push eitherpush past it or jump it.
Yeah.
Because it's like I said, it'spsychological.
They can see it, they.
It doesn't look right becauseit's offset both up and in, so
they don't know how far thesecond fence is, in that they
(53:45):
know if they can jump.
So they basically just turnaway from it because it doesn't
feel right to them.
But if you've ruined that wholepsychological idea and they
jump it, they'll continue tojump it.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
Okay, all right, so you've got to nip it in the bud,
so you got to nip it in thebutt.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
You got to nip it in the butt, do it properly and and
it becomes effective.
The more deer that see deer inthere, or the more does that
train fawns to get in there, theless effective it becomes in
consecutive years.
So you might want, not want todo it, you know, continually in
the same spot either.
You might want, well, you'regoing to move your food plots
around.
Don't plant you know you're notgoing to plant brassicas in the
(54:22):
same food plot four or fiveyears because you're going to
deal with disease issues of youknow, like club root and white
rot and stuff like that.
So you want to move your foodplots around anyway.
So put something in therethat's less for a baby, that's a
perennial, following years, andthen move your
three-dimensional fence and sothey're not continually looking
(54:45):
to get by it.
I guess.
Yeah, it's interesting, but thethree-dimensional works
fantastic.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
Yeah, yeah.
That's a really good idea tohelp save your plot.
Speaker 2 (54:52):
Especially on the smaller plots, Like if you're
doing a hunting plot and youwant it available, let's say,
during, you know, bow season orgun season or whatever, for a
specific week you're going to beoff and you want to take it off
, put that, that fence on itearly.
Get your, get, plant it whenyou when this, when your crop is
going to be ideal for that time, because you're going to, you
(55:13):
want a crop coming off to be themost preferred when you want to
hunt it.
You don't want to plantsomething early and it mature
out too early and then it'd beuseless to you.
Right.
So when you want to hunt it, youwant that crop being in its
most palatable and preferredstage.
So plant it accordingly, butput your fence on.
And then, when you know, a fewweeks before that, if, if you,
(55:36):
if it's big enough that they'renot going to mow it off in three
weeks, then pull your fence offand then let them into that
crop.
So that helps with smaller foodplots as well.
Speaker 1 (55:46):
Yeah, which it will be doing this year, because we
have just too many.
Too many, yeah, and let it getmatured and have it ready, right
, and it'll be ready andavailable, and then we just pull
the fence off.
Yeah, yeah, that's a lot morework than normal, just food.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:00):
But if you're dealing with a lot of deer and you want
to have small kill plots let'ssay a bow plot that you want to
be able to shoot across orsomething, then you know it's a
six of an acre or something likethat, and it would be
especially on crops that you'regoing to pull off early like for
bow season, or something likethat that crops that you're
(56:21):
going to pull off early for boatseason or something like that.
That's good.
Speaker 1 (56:24):
Well, tom, I can't thank you enough for coming out.
We were kind of all over theboard.
No, it's good.
Well, coming out and looking atmy current food plot, my
uncle's potential new food plot,and then coming on and talking
about this, and I'd definitelylike to have you out again, and
I think this has given a lotmore insight to people thinking.
It shows there's so much morein depth besides just going out
and planning a food plot.
Speaker 2 (56:44):
There is.
It can be really simple orreally complicated, but you
should just do the basics it canall work.
Speaker 1 (56:52):
It can all work, it'll all work to some extent,
yeah, exactly, to some extent itwill be as good as the time you
put into it.
Speaker 2 (56:58):
Yeah, exactly, to some extent, what you can
consider a success.
Speaker 4 (57:00):
It will be as good as the time you put into it yeah,
exactly.
Speaker 2 (57:04):
On that note.
Speaker 1 (57:05):
It's a good thing for people to keep in mind.
We're spring here and peopleyou know.
Speaker 2 (57:09):
It's a great time to get out there and break some
ground, for sure.
Speaker 1 (57:11):
Yeah, exactly Thanks.
Speaker 2 (57:13):
Thank you.
this is hunt sun outfitting podcast.
I'm your host and rookie guide,ken marr.
I love everything hunting theoutdoors and all things
associated with it, from stories, tattoos.
You'll find it here.
Welcome to the podcast.
All right, thanks for tuninginto this week's episode.
(00:32):
We appreciate it, as always.
So, for a lot of you listening,when I say managing your
property for deer, most peoplethe first thing that comes to
mind is a lush, green, tall foodplot, planted with all the good
stuff you could think of.
But what would that be?
Where would it be and how big?
(00:53):
What do you have in it?
All kinds of questions.
When do you even plant it?
Do you even need one?
Well, all those questions andmuch more will be answered by
today's guest, tom Byers.
With Tom's knowledge and plentyof his own hands-on experience,
he delves into some of thebasics of food plots for us, and
(01:14):
we talk about not only greengrass and dirt plots, but how
proper forest management canprovide more food for deer and
keep them on your property thanany field you can grow.
With summer planting, startingnow or getting ready to, you're
not going to want to miss thisone.
Also, along with planningthings out for your success,
(01:35):
your dog food should be noexception If you're planning out
for a successful trainingseason for your best friend.
To get them ready for somegreat fall hunts, they got to be
eating right.
That's why I proudly feed andrecommend a nook shook dog food
with their locally sourcedingredients, high energy content
and a taste your dog will love.
(01:56):
It's definitely worth talkingto your local reseller, which
can easily be found throughtheir website.
Go on nookshookcom.
Type in your address.
A reseller will pop up in yourarea with over.
I think it's 800 across northamerica.
Guaranteed there's going to besomeone near you.
(02:16):
Also, for the canadianslistening to this that are, you
know, do the americans have allthe great guns and magazines and
this and that they got a lot?
Yeah, but we also have one forourselves.
It's the Canadian Access toFirearms.
This is a magazine that theywill send to you.
Request it.
What's in the magazine?
(02:37):
It's all kinds of gun articlesbuying, all the shows that are
going on in Canada, tips,how-tos stories.
It's all in there Great guns,from new stuff to antiques.
It's for the gun and outdoorenthusiasts and Americans and
people from other countries.
I think you guys actually enjoythe magazine as well.
You can order off of it.
(02:58):
I do enjoy going through itevery time I get it in the mail.
And if you guys are alsolooking to reach out to us, you
can on Facebook Hunts onOutfitting or by email,
huntsonoutfitting at gmailcom.
All right, let's talk to Tom.
Yeah, so, tom, I mean it'sgreat.
(03:19):
We just went out and we were onmy uncle's property and then I
showed you my food plot and it'sgreat to have boots on the
ground and someone with yourknowledge and expertise looking
at you know how to manage itproperly for the deer and
everything.
So how did you get into, Iwouldn't say just food plots,
but deer management in general?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
I guess it was back in the 80s I guess when I
started because I was hired byFundy Deer Farms, fundy Group of
Companies and we ran about2,200 red deer on two different
operations.
So we did a lot of pasturemanagement for red deer.
And that's when I was hiredunder an NRC grant to look at
(04:07):
adapting New Zealand deerfarming to Canadian context and
we did a lot of small trials andstuff of recuperative type
feeding systems and all thatsort of stuff.
So I got into deer andnutrition a little bit more
after that and nutrition alittle bit more after that.
And then after that was done Iwent with the department and
(04:28):
then I got to know later yearsthe deer biologist Rod
Cumberland.
My brother was the furbiologist at the time.
He took over for Rod.
Rod became the deer biologistand of course I had a great
interest in deer and hunting andall that sort of stuff.
So we got talking a lot and wegot debating and then I had the
opportunity to move back to ourhome farm in 2006.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
In New Brunswick, Canada.
In New Brunswick, Canada, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
So we bought the property next door prior to that
and then dad said hey, you knowwe need a smaller house, you
need a bigger house and wouldyou like to have the farm?
And so we put the twoproperties together because they
were side by side and so we hadjust a little shy of 300 acres
there.
So at that time, I mean, I hadwoodlot management plans done.
(05:20):
I was Rod Cumberland waslooking at starting QDMA with
QDMA Canada Quality DeerManagement Association out of
the US.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Yeah, because you said it started in Georgia.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Well, I think their main base is there now.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Because for American listeners, if you're listening
you guys no one argues it hereyou guys do an excellent job of
managing deer in Canada.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Oh, great job yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
I mean it, it doesn't it doesn't really exist.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
In canada there's some landowners doing it right
that try with their plot.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
But I mean as a whole we do lack on that.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah, big time yeah, I mean they had some really good
people down there.
I mean there was matt ross wasthe biologist and Kip Adams is
there and you know Joe and allthe rest of them down there.
So and then I took some youknow deer stewardship course and
that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
And I mean I had access to Rod, was good friends
with Kip Adams and Matt Ross,and so anytime I had questions,
I mean I just hit three of themup.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So and my background isruminant biology just their
ruminant nutrition.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
So dear full ruminants.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah, they are okay, they do when people say all the
deer are different and stufflike that, they act.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Deer nutrition is the same as any other new right, so
I have an animal sciencebackground but they process it,
say like a sheep, yeah, cheaperruminants, but like that, you
know the pellets come out andthey can take whole grains,
versus cats have to have crushedand stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
I mean, yeah, and, and even even with that, deer
will utilize the nutritionnutrients better from crushed
than they will whole okay, yeahlike yeah, it's, it's just that
simple.
like ruminants are all verysimilar, let's put it that way
yeah and uh, and I mean so backthen.
(07:13):
So once we got the property andqdma started in canada, we
started qdma branch in brunswick.
We got the you know the whatwas it?
The for best branch, best newbranch kind of thing and all
that sort of stuff, and we hadsome people in there that were
really keen on deer management,yep, and we had access to some
(07:35):
of the best you know biologistsin North America, if not in the
world for whitetail, and so thenwe started managing the
property for whitetailspecifically.
So now I talked to you know, atthat time QDMA was was pushing
for, you know, certainpercentages in the North for
(07:55):
perennials versus annuals andthat kind of stuff, and I said,
well, that really doesn't workfor Canada, it's too it's.
It works for northern typestates, but not northern, oh yes
, not the north short.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
We have a very short growing season.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
We got a long winter.
Our highest losses are alwaysgoing to be winter losses, so we
need to uh plant things tomanage for winter stress or late
winter stress, not even winterstress, right?
So our deer naturally in theNorthern part of the province
would migrate to wintering areasor DWAs and they would go to
(08:32):
deer wintering yards, so thedeer would concentrate in those
yards for, you know, reducedsnow depth and all the rest.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, see people from the U?
Speaker 4 (08:40):
S and they don't listen to this, they're like
what, but yeah, we get so muchsnow in areas in Canada that the
deer congregate.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
It would be over the top of the deer's head.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Yeah, they congregate together just to be able to
wear down the paths and all that.
It's a great place to hunt forsheds.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
So the southern part of the province, our deer, are
more migratory in that theywould go.
If the snow depth gets deepenough, they would migrate to a
DWA or wintering area.
If the snow drops in depth theymight migrate back, and they
might do that two or three timesover a winter period.
So they're not yarding per se.
(09:15):
For the most part, In the lastfive years we have had very easy
winters.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Yes, so they've stayed more than natural.
So they stayed more.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
So I looked at all right, how do I get those deer
in the best shape possible to gointo a winter?
And that if they leave theproperty, they will be the ones
that survive and then come back.
If the deer is going to die inin a wintering area or or yard
area, it's not going to be thedeer that are using our property
, so those deer will come back.
Yep, um, so it was acompetition thing.
(09:41):
So we started planting moretowards, like I planted just
about every food plot seed knownout there to this point.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
But how did you?
I mean, where do you begin?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
I guess is a very broad question, but and most,
most guys use what they have,use what they have.
So if you're looking at foodplots, if they get a logging
landing or a woods road or aback corner of a field.
They'll usually try to use thatbecause it's open.
They're probably the worstplaces to put food plots.
(10:17):
Let's say Okay, For the simplefact that if you're going to
look at food plots, you want toplan on where you want it on the
property.
You need to look at the soilthat you have, because you want
good soils because it doesn'tgrow on on.
You know mineralized soil, yeah, you want good topsoil and
(10:38):
fertility and pH, so you want topick a good soil or your best
soils.
So you want to pick a good soilor your best soils, but it
needs to be huntable if you'regoing to use that for a kill
plot.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
You need to get in, get in.
You need to be able to get inand access it.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
It's the same as accessing a stand or anything
like that the wind see where thewinds are going yeah all that
stuff needs to be taken intoaccount where you're going to
put your food plot.
If you're just going to put itwherever you can, then you then
it might not be a huntable plot.
Now, if you're doing anutrition plot or a large plot,
let's say over five acres, wherethe deer are going to
(11:13):
congregate to feed at night orlate and usually you try to
centralize that, A lot of guyswill try to centralize that in
the center of the property andthen put your kill plots outside
around that so that you'redrawing those deer through those
towards your central foodsource.
So the kill plots will bemoving through earlier.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
So they're going to go through your kill plot to get
to the nutritional plot Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
So your kill plots are going to.
You don't want to hold themthere.
You want those deer movingthrough, stopping having a bite,
checking for a doe or whateverit's about, and then moving past
.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Okay, so there's more than a food plot's, not just a
food plot.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
A food plot's not just a food plot.
And some guys don't even likeif you have a nutritional plot,
they say don't hunt yournutritional plots, put in a kill
plot.
A lot of guys don't have themoney, money and time to do that
in space.
So whatever plot they put in,that's their, their plot.
Yeah, so, um, you'll talk aboutyou know, the poor man's plot
and all that sort of stuff,where you're in the woods and
(12:12):
you're going to use a rake or atiller and you know it's going
to be in the by yours.
There's too much canopy coverand all that kind of stuff, like
some guys will say oh well, Igot know they'll use, so you got
to pick your spot, pick yourbest soils, if you can you?
have to look at what you havefor equipment.
(12:33):
If you only have a rake and atiller, you're not going to be
putting in a five acre foodnutritional plot and a kill plot
behind it and all that sort ofstuff and stacking deer up
behind it.
You have to have realisticexpectation of what you can do.
You have to look at what yourneighbors are doing.
If your neighbor has, you know,20 acres of corn out there, you
planting three acres of corn isnot going to help you.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
You're going to have to want to put something else,
because that's going to be thenutritional plot.
You use that as a nutritionalplot and then you have a kill
plot on your property.
That is something else.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Plant something.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Plant something unique that's not readily
available in the area that youknow they're going to like, and
the size of your plot.
Like guys look at size.
So then you say, all right, Ihave an acre or I have three
acres or I have an eighth of anacre.
If you plant a highly preferredfood source on an eighth of an
acre, they're going to wipe itit's going to wipe, it'll never
make season.
My first food plot, I plantedthree quarters of an acre of and
(13:25):
I heard soybeans was great.
So I planned three quarters ofacre soybeans.
Our deer had never seen soybeanso it got up about a foot and
then the deer found the soybeansand they realized they like
soybeans.
Yeah, in three weeks I had nosoybeans left that field and
that was three quarters of anacre well, I've heard I think
I've heard you say this before.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Somebody said that you'd said it.
Is that a big mistake?
A lot of people make with foodplots is making it too small.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
You're not looking at the deer density in the area
right, because I mean if youhave a like, if you got a 20
acre hay field there and it hasperennials and semannials and
all that sort of stuff, that'sgreat.
If you're going to put asixteenth of an acre kill plot
behind it somewhere and you'vegot 30 or 40 deer per square
kilometer or mile either, or Imean that's not going to work.
(14:16):
It's not going to work unlessyou put a highly unpreferred
food in there.
Yeah.
Like guys are saying oh, I havegreat luck with cereal rye,
that's because nothing touchesit, the deer don't like it.
It'll be green the longest, sure, and when everything else is
gone it'll be green.
So the deer might hit it then.
But you're not getting itduring the early part of the
season or anything like that.
(14:37):
Like there's all kinds ofpreferred foods out there, so
you have to adjust the size ofyour food plot with how
preferred the food's going to be.
I tried to put a six of an acreplot of alfalfa in.
I can't get it to grow becausethe deer just eat it.
So and I worked that food plot.
(14:57):
Like we cleared the food plot,we soil tested.
Not many people, not a lot ofguys.
Soil test, was that where?
Speaker 1 (15:04):
you begin.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
You begin with soil testing after you pick the spot,
soil test then you're going tosay, all right, what design am I
going to do this food plot ifyou're going to just make a
square or a circle or you know,what you really want is is some
type of spoke system or orobligate oblong system like a
hourglass or something like that, that the bucks can't just walk
down on the downside and andscent, check it out for does and
(15:27):
never come out in the plot atall.
Right.
So if you're and most peopleare are putting food plots in to
shoot a buck or to grow bucks,so you want to pick a spot that
you can hunt, you want to pick afood plot design that that
allows it to be hunted well, andthe deer are going to come in,
(15:47):
buck's going to come in to look,or he has to come in and then
move around in order to seeeverything that's in that plot.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Something to get them out in the open.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
He's got to.
You got to pull them out.
Yeah, like I've had one squareplot uh that I put in and I've
only seen one good buck on thatplot when I've been hunting it
and he never came out in theplot.
I caught the movement down inthe corner and he come out.
He looked out in the plot andhe could see everything in the
(16:16):
plot and he turned around,walked away.
Yeah, if he can check, sent,check that plot or visually
check that plot, he doesndoesn't need to and he never has
to step out.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
He's not going to yeah and expose himself.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
So, if you want, if you want to, you know, change it
up so that he has to come out,or he has to look out, or, or
you know you have to make ithuntable.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
So then once you do that andyou've got good soil and all
that sort of stuff and you say,all right, well, do a soil test
the biggest thing in at leastthis area in the north our soils
(16:53):
are very acidic.
Now they don't have thatproblem.
In some places down south it'sthe opposite.
But in the north, in NewBrunswick, our soils are very
acidic so we might pull out soilout of a forested area.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
It might be four, three, up to five With the soil
health, I mean, what are youlooking for for pH?
You said about seven.
Is that Usually everythingthose things can grow into?
Seven?
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Everything grows.
Let's say six and above.
Okay, most all of our food plotseeds is going to grow at six
and above.
It's going to do best at sixand a half.
To, let's say 6.8 is probablythe pinnacle.
Okay, once you hit between thatsix, five and seven, then if
(17:39):
you're too low, then a lot ofthe nutrients can't be utilized
by the plant.
Things get tied up in the soilBecause think of it as a magnet.
If you've got magnets and it'sthe soil, particles will attract
the nutrients, let's sayphosphorus or whatever and they
(18:00):
bind them.
Let's say you have, you know,know, your aluminum and iron in
the soil is going to bind, uh,your other nutrients.
So as you get a higher ph theybind less.
And then as you, if you get toohigh, there's other things that
that bind up your nutrients.
(18:21):
Yeah, so you have to hit thatsweet spot, and usually between
6.5, 6.8.
6.8 you only need really forthings like alfalfa, something
that is very sensitive to thatnutrient.
Other things like oats, you canget away with lower pHs.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah, they're growing asphalt.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah, you give oats enough water and you can grow
them on top of the soil, kind ofthing, yeah, now, that's not
ideal, yeah, but you understand.
So that's six, five, six, eightis is probably our we'd like to
see it in there, yeah, and soif I take new ground out of a
woodlot, first thing you do isget a soil sample, add your lime
(19:09):
, you know, add your nutrientsto your seeding um lime, our ag
lime, takes about 18 months it'sover a year before you realize
the full really potential?
okay, it depends on how finethat's ground, yeah.
So ag lime takes about 18months to to have full impact.
So that's why they say don'ttest soil test every year.
Yeah, soil test every other,every third year, kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Okay, I didn't know that before.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
So pelletized lime, hydrated lime, all that sort of
stuff.
It works faster.
It doesn't usually last as long.
Okay.
Because it takes longer to egg.
Lime takes longer to be fullyutilized.
But our soils, our heaviersoils, will take more lime but
they'll hold your ph longer.
So your light soils will takeless lime to adjust, but it it
(19:53):
would need more lime more often.
So I we have heavy soil so ittakes about one ton of lime to
move it about 0.3 on my soil.
Okay for, okay For a lot of mysoils, yep.
So like some guys say, oh well,I only need two ton, well, I
need eight.
On some stuff I pull out, whichis a massive amount for some
(20:14):
like guys down south or out inthe central.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Yeah, Like that's unheard of, yeah, but for our
soils here I mean that would bea normal and that's unheard of,
yeah, but for our soils here Imean that would be a normal, and
for people, I mean what thelime does with the acidity, it
just helps more neutralize it.
It neutralizes that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
The acidity.
So then your soils can.
If your soils or your plantscan then use the nutrients that
are available in the soil, Itell people guys always say,
well, I'm packing down you knowa ton, half a ton of fertilizer.
Well, if your plant can't takethat fertilizer up and it can't
(20:49):
utilize those nutrients.
You're throwing money away.
I always tell people lime first, then fertilize.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Okay, and then, like you said, the soil test is going
to show what kind of fertilizer.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
The soil test will tell you exactly what you need.
Our soil tests are all.
Go to an analytical lab andthey will tell you have an S2
soil test and it tells you allthe nutrients and PK
requirements.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
It'll give you your lime requirements and it'll give
you soil saturation stuff likethat Cause you hear guys do that
Like well, you know, I gotfertilized, I got my food plot
all fertilized.
They never question the law,they never know.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
They don't know the pH and they just throw
fertilizer and it's just theirown good after bad.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Yeah, you've got to know what it needs Make sure
that you get a soil test.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
That's the first thing you're going to do.
And then apply your lime asearly as you can.
And if that's the fall before,great.
If it's the next spring, thendo it.
Then yeah, because it will work, it's work forward for you.
And then the first year, like,don't expect to plant an alfalfa
in there because you're not.
Yeah, like when I did a foodplot we've picked a site, we
(22:03):
picked a design, we cleared theground, got the soil test we
limed it, and the first year Iput in, I think it was- just
clover anda little bit of oats.
Okay, a little bit of oats.
So that was the first year,because the soil wasn't sweet
enough or neutral enough inorder to grow alfalfa that I
wanted to put in there.
So I did that for a year, andthen I did Nebraska the next
year and then the third year Iput in there.
So I did that for a year andthen I did Nebraska the next
(22:24):
year and then the third year Iput in my alfalfa.
Mind you, it was plot.
That was when I learned plotwas too small.
Yeah, because we run a fairlyhigh deer density for our
property.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah, or our deer population around in general,
has been.
It's good Doing well, yeah, inthe south.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Yeah, so we actually need to shoot a few does this
year?
We've been building our herd.
Over the last number of yearsWe've had easy winters.
The last five have been great.
Yes, so our losses have beenminimal the last five.
So once you get your soilsample, it will tell you on
there how much lime you need toadd and then you can decide what
(23:06):
type of lime you want to addfor how long you know.
If you want instant results in,you know, go out and get
pelletized lime, but you'repaying double for it kind of
thing, or whatever it works outto.
Ag lime is is easy to get here,it's effective.
You could get you know, but itdoes take a while to adjust.
(23:27):
But that food plot presumablyyou're going to have for you
know forever so you want tobuild those soils and pick the
best soils.
I mean you can't if you havegood top soil?
That saves a lot of mistakes.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Let's put it that way , but get your soil sample and
get your fertilizer.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
If you have good topsoil, that saves a lot of
mistakes.
But get your soil sample andget your fertilizer and the
thing is, then you're going tosay, all right, what am I going
to plant?
Everybody just wants to knowwhat I'm going to plant.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
They don't care about the fertilizer.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
They just say well, I threw down some 10-10-10 that I
had in the garage, kind ofthing.
They didn't do a soil sample,they don't know what the pH is
and they just don't want to knowwhat do I plant and what you
plant is a loaded question.
Is a loaded question becauseall that other stuff depends on
it.
Yeah, it's how big your plot is.
How much pressure do you haveon other deer?
Where do your neighbors grow?
Speaker 1 (24:17):
What are?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
your neighbors doing.
All those questions you need toanswer before you say what am I
going to throw down there?
And it might be.
You know I plant.
I'm down to basically three,maybe four annuals and a couple
perennials, like out ofeverything I've ever tried.
I got down to those because Ibuild for winter survivability.
(24:42):
I don't build, you know, forsummer nutrition.
There's all kinds of green outthere.
We do a lot of habitatmanagement through the winter
and if you're not managing yourwoods there's not a whole lot of
sense putting in food plots.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah, so that's what we were talking about when we
were at my uncle's propertybecause around him that had been
cleared four or five years ago.
And then he's got a spotcleared put in a food plot and
then, uh, you were saying abouthow important I mean when people
think deer management, foodplots.
You're thinking get the tractorout there, four-wheeler,
whatever planting soil, turningit over, but you were saying the
, the, chainsaw is the deer'sbest friend, like I know.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
People say you know food plots and and the and you
know.
If you look at how much foodplot you're supposed to have
versus how much woodlot you haveis, you know that one to three
percent and if you're going formaximum production is five
percent of your land base shouldbe in food plot.
Well, there's a wholemanagement of the woodlot before
(25:42):
you get to that one fivepercent and now you can do it at
the same time.
No question, like you can sayall right, well, I'm going to
manage the woodlot and I'm goingto put in food plots, but if
you're not managing the woodlot,putting in an in a half acre
food plot or an acre food plotdoes nothing for deer.
It might be a fine kill plotfor you or something like that,
(26:06):
but it's doing nothing for yourdeer.
For the herd in general so youcan take.
They've done studies where ifyou did winter cutting of a of
your woodlot, all thosenutrients from from your tree
after it goes dormant up here itgoes down into the root system.
You cut those in the wintertime.
(26:26):
The sprouts that you stump,sprouts that you get the next
year, that those the nutritionavailable from an acre of clear
cut winter's clear cut is equal,will equal what you can get
from a food plot.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Yeah, see, I did not know that.
So you're saying with myuncle's land, where it was cut
four to five years ago, you saidthe best thing you could do is
mulch it.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
And then let it come back again.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Just as much well, if not more, than growing a food
plot in the soil.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
A lot less work too yeah.
A lot less money, a lot lesswork and you should be putting
in clear, small, clear cuts,doing planting like I I plant
around my food plots.
Now I put I always put a littlebit of hired mass, soft mass in
around the food plots.
Um, you know, on all my foodplots I think I've, I've done
(27:19):
that now because I it just addsto the draw power of the plot.
Yeah, um, I don't want deerstaying there forever, but a lot
of my, my kill plots are fairlylarge too.
So I kind of use them as acrossover between nutrition and,
uh, kill plots, because some ofmy kill plots would be a
(27:41):
kilometer from our mainnutrition plot, or our ag fields
.
So it's at the backside of theproperty.
Yeah.
So I don't expect those deer to, I expect those deer to use
some of those plots as as asnutrition plot.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Yeah, and I mean, I never thought about it much.
Like you said, it depends onyou know your time, space, money
, this base money, this, thatand everything else.
But about like when I took youto show you mine how I had yeah,
like a kill plot, and then Ishowed you there's this other
area where the deer eating andall that, and if they let it
grow up, they're going to bed inthere and then I'm going to
bump them.
You're going to bump them goinginto my stand, but if I keep it
mowed, you know, brush cut.
(28:16):
They're eating there, so that'stheir nutritional plot, and
then they pass through your killplot to there.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
yeah, they're not bedding there and going in
reverse.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Yes, yeah, so yeah, stuff like that.
People, I know you think likeoh, I'm just going to manage
deer, I'm going to make a foodplot.
Yeah Well, there's a bit to it.
It doesn't matter where you arein the world.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah, the biggest thing is, is they don landing?
It's a terrible spot to put afood plot.
It's great that it's open, butusually they pushed off all the
topsoil into the surroundingbush yeah, and because you want
(28:53):
to get down to hard ground on alog landing yeah.
So unless you're going to bringin topsoil to put back there or
pull that topsoil that theytook off back out, you're going
to have a terrible food plotthat's going to take decade
before you get anything growing.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Well, that's the big thing too.
That a lot of people don'trealize is like all right, I'm
going to clear this area in mywoods to put a food plot in, and
they don't know that.
You know, the bulldoze isprobably the worst thing you can
do.
The worst thing you could do isbulldoze that right, but I mean
the stumps, the milk, becauseall that organic, really good
topsoil is right, it's aroundthe stump.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
So when I clear a food plot, I don't bring in a
dozer.
That's like you said.
That's probably the worst thingyou do.
Get an excavator with a thumb,you pull those stumps out, shake
them, turn them over, leavethem.
Now a lot of guys will want thefood plot instantaneous
gratification.
You clear it, you get rid ofall the stuff.
(29:47):
You pile it all up or you pushit out in the bushes and you
lime it, fertilize it, whateveryou do, and get your food plot.
But a lot of your topsoil isyour gold.
I mean, that's what grows yourplants, that's what keeps humans
alive.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Right, it's topsoil Like.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
I had one guy.
He said oh my geez, my foodplot came great.
It was a foot tall and he was ahead of Braska.
I said, yeah, but it should beup to your waist.
I mean, they don't realize howmuch they're not getting out of
it yeah.
As long as it's green, most guys.
(30:27):
Basically, before I plant afood plot yeah, that I do.
Now I take my time, I turn thestumps, I overwinter it, I shake
them off the spring and thefreezing, thawing and all that
sort of stuff.
They come out just like youknow, beachwood and then like a
driftwood, let's say they'rethat clean in the spring because
I roll them a few times withthe tractor and then I take them
off.
All that top soil is then there.
All your organic matter is thenstill there.
You put a bulldozer through andpush it all out.
(30:47):
You've just in in most placeshere, I won't say a lot of
places, if they have deep topsoils or or deep upper layers,
you know you can't do that, buthere our top soil is very
shallow.
We've got inches in the woods,yeah, and if you push all that
out it takes decade or twodecades, let's say, to build
(31:08):
that soil back up and put stuffback in there.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
I don't think a lot of people realize the value of
that.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
No, and that's the problem, they don't realize the
value that they're getting ridof Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
So so if you're able to keep that topsoil, there
instead of all the lime.
You maybe just need to add somefertilizer.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
It saves you thousands and thousands of
dollars and years and years andyears of work.
Yeah, because once you take itoff, you're trying to build it
all back up.
Yeah.
And you need and you know, thefurther down you go and you get
your soil.
I mean you're into mineralizedsoils, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
You're not building that.
What to I mean?
In how close to proximity doyou think it is important to
have water, a water sourcenearby?
Speaker 2 (31:54):
See down south and stuff they always talk about
putting in water holes andputting in, you know, tubs and
ponds and all this stuff.
New Brunswick is inundated withwater.
They don't have to go far, theydon't have to go anywhere to
get water.
There is springs, ponds, creeks, you know, runoffs, everything
(32:17):
in here.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
But for somebody that's not.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
For somebody in the south, or something like that
you know, water is as good as ais as good a draw as anything.
Okay, yeah.
Especially in a dry, in adrought condition summer.
We don't have drought here perse, like we might get a few
weeks that we don't get rain.
Yeah.
And you may be, you know, alittle bit more limited on where
they go for water.
(32:39):
It might be a femoral stream orsomething may dry up, but other
than that there's still pocketsin springs and everything else.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
So if you can have it being for people listening that
it does get a little dry, ifyou can have your food plot near
water, it is quite crucialyou'd find to keep them in that
area.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
It goes hand in hand If you want to keep them in that
area.
It goes hand in hand.
If you want to keep them in thearea, yeah, see.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Our vegetation, though, is so lush, it's so lush
.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Water's not an important thing for me.
I'll put it that way.
I have three ponds on theproperty, no question.
We also have two small creeksrunning down through.
We have umpteen number ofsprings on the property.
The vegetation is even indrought condition, is still
(33:30):
packed with water.
Yep, like we don't have anissue with water.
Now, if you want to add that toa plot area to make it one more
thing that they don't have towalk down over the hill for,
then that's fine.
And, like I said, I've stillgot three ponds on the property
and they're all located withinspitting distance of food plots.
(33:55):
Well, I did it for habitat.
So the things associated inaddition to deer management,
kind of thing.
We have a DU pond there.
We put in a small one, you know, off a offshoot kind of thing,
and it's next to a food plot andwe had planted apple trees
(34:15):
around it.
Okay.
So it was just another of thosedraws.
That was another thing to add.
Yeah, so we did the water withthe apple trees around it.
Okay, so it was just another ofthose draws.
That was another thing to add.
Yeah, so we did the water withthe apple trees, we planted the,
let's say, an acre and aquarter of food plot and then
there was some old apple treesthere.
We cleaned it all around andthen I took another half acre on
the other side of open ground.
(34:35):
That was early successionalfield and we turned it and and
planted in oaks and you know,all those things working
together make an ideal draw area.
And then we have on the lowerside of that there's about five
acres of early successionalfield.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
So early successional field is.
You know, I see all those otherthings as important as putting
in food plots per se and habitatmanagement.
If you're not managing yourhabitat, then putting in a food
plot is one part of an overallplan, so it's just one small
(35:18):
portion of that.
Are they important?
Sure, sure.
Do they add nutrition?
Certainly can um they're.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Do you find people put too much emphasis?
Speaker 2 (35:26):
on yes, just that yeah, okay they emphasize food
plots because it's the buzzword.
Yeah, they don't emphasizefawning cover, winter habitat,
you know um early success,growth, all those other things
that are as more important thanhaving a food plot.
Yeah, but guys want the foodplot, they want something they
(35:50):
can see and say I did that yeah.
That's my spot.
One thing I don't tell anybodynow that we're on air, guys will
want to plant in the woods.
Yeah.
They'll want to stand out in thewoods and they'll buy a throw
(36:10):
and grow let's say Deer on thebag.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And nothing grows withoutsunlight, without fertility,
without you know proper.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
You get some shoots come up, though They'll call
that a success and that's asuccess.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
Yeah, but I mean, that's not a draw no.
I mean, and it's always theryegrass or cereal rye or
something's coming up.
It's not your.
You know you're not gettingyour nice clovers and brassicas
and stuff, all that coming out.
It's.
It's the idiot proof stuff,because there's stuff in there
that will grow with low pH.
(36:49):
There's stuff in there that'llgrow with higher moisture soils,
yeah, but unless it getssunlight, nothing grows.
Unless there's seed to soilcontact, nothing grows.
So they'll go out there, rake alittle bit, maybe throw down
some fertilizer, and if they canget a little bit of sunlight in
they'll get a little bit ofgreen sheen.
Yeah.
(37:09):
I call it green sheen kind ofthing, but that's not a draw.
No.
You're better off to takesomething like hostas, plant
them out around your deer standand protect them until deer
season and then take your cagingoff your hostas, because hostas
will grow in shade.
Okay, yeah.
So what are hostas?
Hostas are what your wife wasgoing to plant out in the flower
(37:30):
garden along the front of thehouse there, the big leaf kind
of vegetative plant.
Okay, yeah, but they will growin shade.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
So if I was going to do anything in in the woods at
the deer stand.
That's what I I plant hostasall around.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
My food plots too, so around the outside, that's a
good idea, yeah because deerlike hosta.
They grow in in with minimalsunlight they won't.
They won't flower and produceseed without sunlight, but I
mean they will certainly grow.
So if you protect those and andaround your deer stand, then
you got a green plant.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Yeah, the deer, like it's just another one of those
added things, yeah speaking, youknow you doing, talking about
that, when I was back in I don'tknow, probably I was young,
middle school.
I uh, I remember that you knowyou read the hunting magazines
and everything and make a foodplot and I bought, yeah, like
it's like walk and toss kind ofstuff and I did, I went out with
the rake and I scraped up thisarea where there's like a little
patch of clearing in the woodsand uh, had like a bucket I'd
(38:27):
gotten of lime and I just putthat down and put that out.
And remember I was, I was sothrilled like holy cow, like
stuff's coming up, but it was,you know, as long as my finger,
yeah, maybe, and I considersuccess.
Yeah, I mean the deer wreckedit overnight, right, basically,
and you know, realizing as youget older that was completely
useless.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
And I mean, there's all kinds of shows that they're
doing the poor man's food plotand they'll go in and burn and
spray, rake it up and throw itdown and, you know, do a little
green sheen, yeah um and if ifyou're happy with that and
that's what you want, thenthat's fine.
But the more work, the moreeffort that you put into a food
(39:08):
plot, the better your plot'sgoing to be.
There's no sense planting anacre if you could get the same
amount of food in half an acreyeah, yeah, yeah, exactly so.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
But yeah, like I said , I don't think people take into
account all the other stuffthat goes with it, but the food
plots nonetheless are a greatasset.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
I say to have just another tool in the bill.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
It's another tool.
Another tool, yeah, um, inmanaging deer or or killing deer
.
Um, managing deer or or killingdeer?
Um, and I, I, it depends, likea lot of guys will say, well,
what do I plant?
And it really depends on allthe other factors.
Like you can never tellsomebody, just throw down clover
(39:51):
I mean you can clover?
is clover one of your more uh,fail proof kind of it is for
this area because we're in thenorth and and and clovers do
well because they're cool season, perennial or annual, yeah, um
so we do well up here and wehave lots of moisture yeah, like
I said, moisture and cooltemperatures.
(40:11):
Clovers do great.
Um so clover is one of our morefoolproof.
They say it's harder toestablish, but clover is
established really well up here,Now, whether you go with an
annual clover or perennialclover, whether you go with red
clover or white clover or allSykes or whatever personally I
(40:34):
go with, usually go with theLadino.
Clovers are ranked by height,not by species, so much Okay.
Yeah, so you have your reallyshort ones, like your Dutch that
you see on the lawn, and thenyou'll have your Duran and stuff
that are kind of mid, and thenyou have your ladinos, which are
tall.
Yeah, so usually you decide youknow, what you want.
(40:58):
And red clovers aren't aspreferred as white and all sex
is a little bit between the twokind of thing.
But it was developed for, let'ssay, poor soils.
Um, white clover does reallywell in wet ground or it can be
flooded back and for shortperiods of time and that kind of
stuff and uh there's some likethe I think it was the berms
(41:22):
we've seen.
Okay that they're talking.
Now that you know you can putin wetter areas and it's more of
an annual taxes annual.
So it just depends on what youwant to do.
But clover's a good, you know.
Basic food plot item to do wellhere, and it just depends on
(41:43):
what your how much ground youhave Clovers, like I said
clovers would be my preferredperennial after alfalfa.
If I have the ground, the pH andstuff, you're planting alfalfa,
I'm planting alfalfa.
If I have the ground, the pHand stuff, you're planting
alfalfa, I'm planting alfalfa.
There is also bird's foot treefoil, which is what's called the
(42:05):
poor man's alfalfa.
It has better attributes as faras you know disease resistance,
lower pH.
It'll grow at lower pHs, wetter, all that kind of stuff.
It's just alfalfa.
It beats alfalfa in all thoseareas, areas, but alfalfa is
much highly more preferred okay,yeah.
(42:25):
So if you can plant alfalfa evendisease and in bugs and all
that kind of stuff, I plantalfalfa.
If I can't, then um.
I look at you know clover,clover, bird's foot or and
chicory I mean all those goodones in there.
I usually like to keep mychicory If I can't mow it, I
won't add chicory.
If I can keep it mowed and keepit in the vegetative stage,
(42:46):
then I'll plant chicory in thereas well, because the deer
seemed to like it.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
Okay, on our property .
Then too, I mean, if you'relooking to build up your soil
and all that, would it be a goodidea?
Even if you could plant oats,mow that throughout the summer,
things like that, just to getthat organic matter in there
working in the soil.
If you need the organic, matter.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
I mean, a lot of guys want a food plot with, they
want to build their soil butthey don't want to give up their
food.
Yes.
So I mean I always heard youknow plant buckwheat or whatever
.
I planted buckwheat on on fairamount of ground when I first
started.
I never saw a deer in mybuckwheat.
(43:26):
I mean there's an odd nip hereand there.
It's the same as our oats, likeif, if I'm planting more highly
preferred foods, they're nottouching our small cereal grains
, stuff like that.
And then you start looking atat cereal grains in addition to
clover and stuff like that, andthen you start looking at cereal
greens in addition to cloverand stuff like that.
Guys are always talking thatstarted in agriculture because
(43:47):
it was planting clover and thenyou would add oats as a cover
crop over top because they said,well, it adds shade, shade, it
keeps the moisture soil, allthat kind of stuff.
But and then they they'veadapted that into food plotting
for deer.
(44:08):
The trouble is that grain cropwas supposed to come off.
It was supposed to be cut.
Um, because what happens iswhen you come into the winter, I
never had a better smother cropthan when I planted oats.
If you let it mature out, plantin spring, let it mature out
(44:29):
and then die back.
I never had such a clean seedbed is when I planted oats heavy
and did that, yeah, so if youthink you're going to plant oats
heavy or with clover and thennext spring you're going to have
this awesome clover plot, yeah.
I have a little bit ofreservation around that.
If the deer ate it, sure.
(44:51):
Or you could take it off, sure.
Or if you go light on yourplanting, great.
But everywhere that those oatswere are going to die and create
smother on the clover andeverywhere that they were.
You have a berry patch now andweeds have as much chance of
(45:13):
taking over that spot as cloverdoes.
So you're going to deal withweeds a lot sooner.
Let's say, unless you're goingto use a heavy weed program,
unless you're going to deal withweeds a lot sooner, let's say
unless you're going to use aheavy weed program, unless
you're going to usegrass-specific herbicide or
something like that so that theclover can take over those spots
and fill.
So I don't like plant.
When I do clover, I do clover.
(45:36):
I don't put in small grains andstuff, so the deer have
something extra to have thatfall, or whatever the case may
be.
I plant.
When I do clover, I do clover,I don't.
I don't put in small grains andstuff, okay, so the deer have
something extra to have thatfall or whatever the case may be
.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Yeah, like we can spring plant clover up here just
fine.
Yes, you don't need to fallplant clover here, yeah, okay,
yeah, that's interesting too, soyou don't mix.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
I don't, I like.
I would much rather take a foodplot, strip it in two or three
and strip plant stuff than Iwilled multiple species, because
each of those seeds have theirown specific ph requirement they
have their own nutrientrequirement.
They have their own plantingdepth requirement.
And if you take the you know Idon't like saying idiot proof
(46:18):
bag, but the kitchen sink bag,and throw all that stuff out
there, something will grow sure,because no matter how deep you
go or how shallow you go, or howmuch moisture it got or how
much the fertilizer you put on,something in there is, is, is so
it's gonna grow yeah, 90 of it.
(46:40):
Won't maybe, but something willgrow.
Yeah, I don't want to wastetime, fertilizer all that kind
of stuff, when I plant something.
I want that specific.
I want clover to come, I wantalfalfa to come, I want corn to
come, I want soybeans field pea,whatever it is.
Now I will mix, you know fieldfield pea in something else and
oats or whatever.
(47:01):
But I mean, I'm very, I knowwhat I want out of it.
I don't want this general mixthat I mean.
Mixing brassicas together is afine idea.
You can have you know turnipgrape kale.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
That's fine.
Yeah, I mean, if you're goingto do stuff like like that or
you have a specific goal in mind.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
I mean, if you're going to put in an early, you
know, some clover with or with alight oats or something like
that, just to give the deersomething because you want them
at that time.
But I mean you have to look atthe timing when everything comes
off too.
Like why do you, when do youwant the deer there?
If you're putting in soybeans,let's say, in the spring, in May
(47:43):
, they're going to be preferredthrough that fawning season kind
of thing.
You're giving the deernutrition and then they're going
to yellow off in August andthen they're going to produce
off in august and then andthey're going to produce seed,
of course, and then that's it,and the deer aren't going to
touch them after that untilthey've hardened off.
(48:05):
And then they come into thefall and and the deer are
looking for that.
The soybean, yeah, the beanitself.
There's other things likeclover.
They're going to hit early.
It's going to go dormant duringthe summer months here and it's
going to come back ongangbusters in September, yeah.
So that's a decent one.
(48:26):
But by November that'severything's gone dormant.
Everything's gone dormant by byhunting season.
So if you're looking forsomething that's going to be
there during hunting season.
You need to look, start lookingat.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
I mean, I look at the brassicas and soybeans and corn
stuff because that's going tobe there when I need it for gun
rifle season matured, maturedand and and preferred by the
deer at that stage, at that timeyeah, and looking at what
they're, what they are thinkingtheir nutrition is, because I
mean they know what they need,their nutritional levels and all
that you put cereal grain outthere and it's not going to be
(49:00):
available in november yeah yeah,not here not here yeah, I mean,
you know cereal rye is stillgoing to be green, but deer
don't like it.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
Yeah, and if you want to plant that, that's, that's
fine if you, if you have limitedspace, let's say, because you
don't want the deer hammering aneighth of an acre and it being
nothing there.
Yeah.
You could put an acre ofbrassicas in there and it took
my the deer down on our place afew years to get onto a brassica
(49:29):
.
So that's ripe kale, turnip,that kind of stuff.
It took them a few years to getonto brassica.
The first year they nevertouched it until almost spring.
Second year they starteddigging down through the snow in
December.
First year they never touched.
It's almost spring.
Second year they starteddigging down through the snow in
in december.
Third year they hit it inseason.
Now I can't keep brassica ifit's if it's early, um, if it's
(49:49):
less than an acre, yeah, I plantan acre and I'd have 14 plus
deer there every day reallyevery night, and it never made
it past august yeah oh, so, um,and that was another thing.
It was like all right, how do Ikeep, how do I plant something
like that then, now, and withthe densities that we have or we
(50:09):
want to keep, and how do I, howdo I keep that plot to the fall
when I want to hunt it?
so we started looking at, uh,three-dimensional fencing they
keep the deer, so you can getsolar pack or whatever, and and
I mean it's, it's on all thehunting sites and that sort of
stuff um, I first heard about itthrough qdm, yeah and uh, and
(50:32):
they were looking at doing atrial hink down in george or
somewhere.
Anyway, I said, well, if itworks there, it'll work here.
So we actually started doingthat through agriculture for
farmers.
We did a test field that washaving high deer damage on on
field crops and found that itwould work great, yeah.
(50:54):
So I said, hey, if it'll workfor that, it'll work for food
plots.
So we we year we'll be takingthree-dimensional fence.
So if you don't know what thatis, it's just we're using solar
or electric Use like a tape,electric tape.
We use half-inch tape orthree-quarter-inch tape, I think
it's 20 millimeter or whatever.
(51:15):
There's two, it's basically twofences.
So you have inside fence whichhas two wires on it.
You run them at 18, let's say,in 36 inches, and then you come
off three feet and you'll put asecond wire at, say, 24.
So they're offset visuallylooking at them, and they're
(51:36):
offset depth.
So a deer, if it can seethrough an item, it loses depth
perception.
So if you put a solid wallthere, that whitetail, he could
jump that wall.
If you put a fence there, whathappens is they run towards the
fence, they get too close, theydon't realize how far away from
the fence they are and they'lljump and then they jump into the
fence.
So when we did raceways at thedeer farm, the raceway itself is
(52:04):
fencing and then we come into asolid wall and then the solid
walls have to be higher.
Speaker 1 (52:10):
Okay, just because the deer can jump in, yep.
Speaker 2 (52:14):
You get a deer inside a fence and try to get it out
if it's in the wrong spot, likethey just keep jumping into the
fence.
So, um, with thatthree-dimensional fence, the
deer have to be able to come out, see it, assess it and then
turn away from it.
And the best thing to do isbait them as well with some
(52:36):
tinfoil and peanut butter orsomething like that, so they
touch that nice wet nose on it.
Yeah, but don't put it righttight to the woods, because if
you put it tight to the woodsand the deer comes out on a deer
trail and it comes right up tothe fence right off the bat,
sees the fence stops and thenthe one behind it touches it on
the rear end or something likethat, and it jumps that fence,
which is an automatic reactionto it.
Yeah, automatic reaction to it.
(53:00):
Yeah.
And once they get in, becausethe deer behind is going to
panic and say, oh, I got to getin there, I got to get in there
and then they, they run throughyour fence and then you get deer
in there.
It it's a psychological barrier, it's not physical, right?
Yes, so you want the deer to beable to assess it and move away
from it without jumping it.
So and it works great if you doeverything right.
Yeah, it does not work good ifyou've already had let the deer
(53:21):
get into that crop.
You want to put it up beforethe deer start using the crop?
Okay, Because if the deer havestarted using the crop.
They know there's food in therethey want.
They're going to push eitherpush past it or jump it.
Yeah.
Because it's like I said, it'spsychological.
They can see it, they.
It doesn't look right becauseit's offset both up and in, so
they don't know how far thesecond fence is, in that they
(53:45):
know if they can jump.
So they basically just turnaway from it because it doesn't
feel right to them.
But if you've ruined that wholepsychological idea and they
jump it, they'll continue tojump it.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
Okay, all right, so you've got to nip it in the bud,
so you got to nip it in thebutt.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
You got to nip it in the butt, do it properly and and
it becomes effective.
The more deer that see deer inthere, or the more does that
train fawns to get in there, theless effective it becomes in
consecutive years.
So you might want, not want todo it, you know, continually in
the same spot either.
You might want, well, you'regoing to move your food plots
around.
Don't plant you know you're notgoing to plant brassicas in the
(54:22):
same food plot four or fiveyears because you're going to
deal with disease issues of youknow, like club root and white
rot and stuff like that.
So you want to move your foodplots around anyway.
So put something in therethat's less for a baby, that's a
perennial, following years, andthen move your
three-dimensional fence and sothey're not continually looking
(54:45):
to get by it.
I guess.
Yeah, it's interesting, but thethree-dimensional works
fantastic.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
Yeah, yeah.
That's a really good idea tohelp save your plot.
Speaker 2 (54:52):
Especially on the smaller plots, Like if you're
doing a hunting plot and youwant it available, let's say,
during, you know, bow season orgun season or whatever, for a
specific week you're going to beoff and you want to take it off
, put that, that fence on itearly.
Get your, get, plant it whenyou when this, when your crop is
going to be ideal for that time, because you're going to, you
(55:13):
want a crop coming off to be themost preferred when you want to
hunt it.
You don't want to plantsomething early and it mature
out too early and then it'd beuseless to you.
Right.
So when you want to hunt it, youwant that crop being in its
most palatable and preferredstage.
So plant it accordingly, butput your fence on.
And then, when you know, a fewweeks before that, if, if you,
(55:36):
if it's big enough that they'renot going to mow it off in three
weeks, then pull your fence offand then let them into that
crop.
So that helps with smaller foodplots as well.
Speaker 1 (55:46):
Yeah, which it will be doing this year, because we
have just too many.
Too many, yeah, and let it getmatured and have it ready, right
, and it'll be ready andavailable, and then we just pull
the fence off.
Yeah, yeah, that's a lot morework than normal, just food.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (56:00):
But if you're dealing with a lot of deer and you want
to have small kill plots let'ssay a bow plot that you want to
be able to shoot across orsomething, then you know it's a
six of an acre or something likethat, and it would be
especially on crops that you'regoing to pull off early like for
bow season, or something likethat that crops that you're
(56:21):
going to pull off early for boatseason or something like that.
That's good.
Speaker 1 (56:24):
Well, tom, I can't thank you enough for coming out.
We were kind of all over theboard.
No, it's good.
Well, coming out and looking atmy current food plot, my
uncle's potential new food plot,and then coming on and talking
about this, and I'd definitelylike to have you out again, and
I think this has given a lotmore insight to people thinking.
It shows there's so much morein depth besides just going out
and planning a food plot.
Speaker 2 (56:44):
There is.
It can be really simple orreally complicated, but you
should just do the basics it canall work.
Speaker 1 (56:52):
It can all work, it'll all work to some extent,
yeah, exactly, to some extent itwill be as good as the time you
put into it.
Speaker 2 (56:58):
Yeah, exactly, to some extent, what you can
consider a success.
Speaker 4 (57:00):
It will be as good as the time you put into it yeah,
exactly.
Speaker 2 (57:04):
On that note.
Speaker 1 (57:05):
It's a good thing for people to keep in mind.
We're spring here and peopleyou know.
Speaker 2 (57:09):
It's a great time to get out there and break some
ground, for sure.
Speaker 1 (57:11):
Yeah, exactly Thanks.
Speaker 2 (57:13):
Thank you.
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