January 7, 2025 • 55 mins
Get ready to be immersed in the world of coyote hunting with hounds, as we host the passionate and experienced John Farringer. Growing up in the hound culture of eastern North Carolina, John shares firsthand stories about the traditions, camaraderie, and challenges of hunting, from rabbit beagles to deer hounds. Tune in to learn about the delicate balance between predator management and respect for wildlife, and how working dogs play a pivotal role in maintaining this harmony.
Discover the intricate dynamics of using hounds for coyote management, as we discuss with John the ethical considerations and benefits of this practice. Explore the thoughtfully controlled environments created by pen owners to ensure the well-being of coyotes, and the importance of educating animal rights groups about these practices. From understanding the roles of cold-nose jump dogs and pack dogs to the clever strategies employed by coyotes, this episode provides a rich exploration into the intelligence and adaptability of both hunters and their canine companions.
In our engaging conversation, we also touch on the responsibilities associated with managing hunting dogs and ensuring respect for private properties. John shares captivating anecdotes about his exceptional dog, Fancy, whose keen focus on coyotes is unmatched. We also highlight the importance of passing down these hunting traditions to the younger generation, fostering respect for diverse outdoor perspectives. Join us as we celebrate the thrill of coyote hunting season and look forward to future stories and insights from the field.
Check us out on Facebook and instagram Hunts On Outfitting, and also our YouTube page Hunts On Outfitting Podcast. Tell your hunting buddies about the podcast if you like it, Thanks!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
this is hunts on outfitting podcast.
I'm your host and rookie guide,ken meyer.
I love everything hunting theoutdoors and all things
associated with it, from storiesto howos.
You'll find it here.
Welcome to the podcast.
Okay, thanks for everyone tuningin to this week's episode of
(00:32):
Huntsman Outfitting Podcast.
We appreciate it greatly.
This podcast is growing.
It's thanks to you.
I find the best way for that togrow and how it's been growing
is word of mouth.
So if you enjoy this podcast inany way, shape or form, please
just share us out.
That's it.
That's all.
So this week on the podcastwe've got John Farringer talking
about coyote hunting.
(00:53):
Now, most of us as hunters nodoorsmen and women, you know,
when the off season comes, deerseason's over or something we're
hunting coyotes.
We're doing our part forpredator management and helping
protect the deer herds and smallgame animals that we enjoy to
hunt ourselves.
Coyotes are a predator thatreally need to be managed.
(01:13):
So a lot of us will findourselves, you know, going out
and trying to get a few dogs ifwe can.
But have you ever tried doingit with hounds?
Well, if you have, you're goingto enjoy this.
If you have, you're going toenjoy this.
If you haven't.
You're going to enjoy thisepisode, too and probably learn
a lot.
We cover a vast array of topicsinvolving coyote hunting with
(01:34):
hounds.
John's knowledgeable on thisand has been doing it for a
while.
He has a lot of great insightson it and tells about the
training, choosing the dogs thathe likes to use, the types of
guns and ammo used all that, soI think you're really going to
enjoy it.
In this episode, too, we'regoing to be talking about
(01:54):
working dogs, and if you guysare looking for something to
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(02:17):
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So just something to keep inmind.
I hope you enjoy the podcast.
(02:38):
So you're living inPennsylvania, originally from?
Is it North or South CarolinaNorth?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Carolina Born and raised or South Carolina, north
Carolina Born and raised grew upin eastern North Carolina and I
currently, you know, have beenliving in Pennsylvania for about
19 years now.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Okay, yeah, so definitely a resident.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Yes, yep.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah.
So, john, you know.
Thanks so much for reaching outto me and I'm excited to have
you on and learn.
I mean, I love any working dog,especially hounds, and I'm
excited to learn about, you know, running coyotes with hounds.
But before we get into that,you know what was your start in
hunting?
Because when we were talkinglast night you were saying that
(03:22):
you really grew up in the houndculture.
Yeah, yeah, when we weretalking last night you were
saying that you really grew upin the hale culture.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, yeah.
So you know, growing up ineastern North Carolina it was
pretty much just a way of life.
You know we grew up, startedout with rabbit, beagles and
stuff and then from there, youknow, as I got older, I moved
into running deer with hounds Alot of people, you know, don't
(03:49):
agree with them and stuff but in, you know, eastern North
Carolina it's just a way of lifeand it's just the way they did
things down there.
It's a lot of fun.
The sportsman's part of it, youknow, I see both sides.
It's a lot of fun.
The sportsman's part of it.
(04:09):
I see both sides.
I see your tree stand, huntersand stuff.
I think there's room for all ofus to share the wood and the
great outdoors.
Respect goes a long ways.
If you have respect for eachother and value each other's
thoughts on hunting and stuff,you know, I think we can all all
(04:30):
share the like.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I said, I'll share the great outdoors and it'll be
a great time for everybody well,yeah, exactly, I find that,
even though you know some aresitting in a tree, some are
running with hounds or whatever,um, we're all hunters, so we're
all on the you know should beall on the same team, really
absolutely yes, um, and you know, I, honestly, even growing up,
(04:54):
you know, as far back as I canremember, um, never had any, any
encounters.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Uh, the group of guys and stuff and girls that my
family hunted with andeverything throughout the county
.
There was never any issues.
We respected each other.
We knew the neighbor.
If he was hunting a buck and hewas going to be in a stand, you
(05:25):
know we stayed away from them,them blocks of wood, um, and as
far we turned into respect, um,you know he, he would let us
know, hey, uh, he must've movedout, or hey, he harvested, or um
, the communication was great,um, and the level of respect was
was great, and the level ofrespect was great, and so it
(05:48):
worked out really well.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, I mean, that's what it's all about as sportsmen
.
So, with growing up all aroundhands, did you guys run coyote
hands when you were younger?
Speaker 2 (06:04):
So growing up we had fox and coyote pens, trout pens
and we would use those pens totrain puppies and stuff.
Um, we never really got intothe field trawling um, my family
and you know the group that wehunted good um, nothing wrong
with it at all.
I mean absolutely nothing.
I mean it's a great sport, Imean if you want to sit on your
(06:25):
tailgate and listen to houndsrun all night long.
I've been to them and it'sgreat.
I mean sometimes you get two orthree hundred hounds on a trial
and it just sounds like you'reknocking trees over.
I mean it's, it's a greatfeeling, you know.
Um, but we just never reallygot into that.
We had all outside running dogsand our hounds would run deer
(06:51):
and we would start puppies onfox and coyote because they kind
of have the same scent as adeer.
Now, as far as the coyotehunting coming about, so when I
moved up to PA back in 2004, Iwas kind of lost.
I didn't know, you know, I meanI knew how to hunt out of a
(07:15):
tree.
You know deer stand.
I mean I knew how to hunt outof a tree stand or a shanty or,
you know, sit on the edge of acornfield or you know, walk the
woods and the streams and youknow up to the mountain wall and
stuff and I knew how to do that.
But deep down in my heart youknow where I wanted to be.
As far as you know hunting withhounds, you know you can't do
(07:39):
that in Pennsylvania you can'trun deer or bear or anything
like that in Pennsylvania, whichis fun.
I respect the law.
And one day I was at the gasstation and I'd seen a guy
sitting there.
He had a dog box in the back ofhis truck and it was a fairly
large dog box and I knew, man,unless he had like eight coon
(08:02):
hounds, you know, I'm wonderingwhat he's running.
You know, yeah, absolutely.
And so I asked, I said you know.
I said hey, buddy, I don't wantto impede on your business or
anything.
I said, but ask what you'rerunning here.
You know what you're hunting?
He says coyotes.
We're running using Julywalkers, running walkers and
(08:22):
long-legged walkers.
We hunt coyotes.
And I said to him, I said well,a little bit of a short, brief
background, and he invited meright along.
I could have went that day withhim, you know, and I didn't,
(08:43):
but I got into it and it wasjust like being back home again
and it was a great feeling Forme.
I don't know what it is.
The sound of a hound is like noother and I really don't know
any other way to explain itwithout somebody experiencing it
(09:03):
.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yeah, it is.
For those of us who arefortunate enough to experience
it is hard to put into words andyeah, that's why, like I run
Coonhounds a lot and my Beaglestoo, and I take out as many new
people as I can, just so theyexperience it.
And I don't expect everyone toget their own dog and stuff, but
at least they understand it andthey get to experience that.
And that's just someone elseyou know on our side.
(09:26):
For if that issue ever comes up, say in a negative way, then
they say, well, actually I wentalong and had a great time and
this is actually what it's likeand stuff.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Oh, absolutely.
I mean I've even invited, youknow, folks to my house and to
show them.
You know the work that we do.
You know we don't just, youknow, put these hounds in a pen
and take them out and run themand put them back in the pen.
You know they're part of thefamily.
I mean my kids play with them.
(09:56):
And you know my wife, you knowGod bless her heart.
I got a really strong, strong,strong wife.
I mean with my employment, myjob that I do.
If it wasn't for her I would notbe able to do and have hounds.
I mean I could hunt with thefolks but I wouldn't be able to
have my own hound.
(10:17):
There's a lot of work that weput into them, spending time
with them and training them.
I don't ever look at the priceof what I paid for a hound
because you know you meet folksand say, oh, I got the best
hounds in the county or thestate and you know I have good
(10:38):
hounds.
I think every day a hound hasits day.
I can take my best hound I gotand he'll make a liar out of me,
or she'll make a liar out of meand I can take a, you know, a
fresh young pup that I thinkthat is almost there but not
quite there, and she'll justshot.
(10:59):
I mean she'll, I mean she'll,she'll cold trail, she'll jump
that coyote and'll run thatcoyote until she can't run no
more.
And you know every hound hasits day.
But back to you know they're apart of the family.
I mean they're not abused,they're not.
You know they don't get fed,you know they're very well taken
(11:26):
care of.
And then vet bills and shotsand just making sure they're
healthy.
There's a lot of work that'sinvolved in it.
You have to find somewhere deepdown in your heart and be to be
a true hound.
(11:46):
Um, now, on the flip side ofthat, uh, it's very addictive, I
mean for me.
For me it is.
You know, when I hear thathound, when I hear that hound,
you know chopping a little bit,chop a little bit, cold,
trailing, and when he startsstriking and you know all you
hear is a bellow and a, you knowjust hammering.
(12:09):
You know he's up and jumping orrunning.
You know that hair on the backof my neck stands up.
And just about everybody thatI've taken out to show them that
experience, you know they feelthe same way, and not every one
of them, like you said, you know, has hounds, but they buy
tractors, they buy a dog box sothey can help catch up dogs.
(12:31):
You know they're fully involved, you know.
And for whatever reason they be,they might not be in a
situation where they can havehounds.
You know they take a little bitof property.
They're not going to have tolive in the city.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, well, they're not like a golden retriever or
something you know the houndsare.
They're unique and they can bevery intense dogs, I guess you
could say at times.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yes, yes, very intense, you know, and there's
all kinds.
There's all kinds.
You, you might go through, youknow you and I'm not saying that
they're bad hounds but youmight go through five, six, ten,
fifteen hounds until you findthat one that fits you.
Um, you work hand in hand.
You know when I, when I back upto a, a clear cut or a lay down
(13:22):
or along the edge of the road,I opened that box up, all I got
to do is walk in the direction Iwant them to go and they go.
They know where they they youknow, they know where I want
them to go and and you just gotto find, you got to find them
pounds that your personalitiesmatch.
I mean, it's really weird tothink about it, but when you
(13:44):
actually do it it all comes tolife.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Yeah, exactly, I couldn't agree more.
I just want to back up a bit tosomething you were talking
about just people listening sothey understand.
So you're saying about thecoyote and the fox pens and I
know a little bit about them.
I know that there's a lot ofcontroversy behind them, but
what I do know about them andthen I'll say and you can
correct me if I'm wrong is thatmost of them are a pretty good
(14:09):
size.
I don't know the exact acres,but a lot and I've been told and
seen videos and stuff that Imean these coyotes and foxes and
these pens.
Some people think it's cruel,but they know the game.
The hounds are going to come,they're going to run, but
they're fed and all that.
They're actually looked afterand probably have a better life
than a coyote in the wild.
But I'll let you tell.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yes, absolutely, and I will stand firm on this.
Those fox and coyote live along, healthy, exciting,
comfortable life.
You know.
They're fed, they have water.
Now here's the thing that maybesome people, or a lot of people
(14:52):
, don't know.
Also, in these pens, you know,there are usually pens averaged
from 50 acres and up.
I don't think I've ever heardor seen or been to a pen that
was under 50 acres.
And when I say 50 acres, youmight have one, maybe two
(15:15):
coyotes in 50 acres.
Now these pen owners, you knowthey build safe havens for these
coyotes and foxes, so they havebarrels and stuff that they go
into when they're done runningand they've had enough.
They don't just lay over andlet the coyote.
(15:35):
You know the hound catch thecoyote and there's no fighting.
You know the coyote knows whereit's home is, where it sleeps,
and it goes.
It'll hole up and the dogscan't get to it and there's no
harm done.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Yeah, and these coyotes, you know, they're not
fighting with one another allthe time, they're not trying to
scrimp and get food and bestarving and they're not, you
know, worried about gettingdifferent kinds of diseases and
all that.
And yeah, no cause.
We have a province here inCanada, ontario, and there's
still some pens there andthere's been a lot of, you know,
of course, animal rights groupsand all that trying to shut
(16:10):
them down.
But, like you know, I'm gladwe're talking about this.
They don't realize that I meanthese things.
They do.
They have a much better lifethan a wild coyote.
They're safe there andeverything's kind of controlled
enough for them in a comfortableway, almost like a beef cow, I
guess you could say.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
There's no need for them tofight over food when each one of
them have an average of five orten pounds of food put out for
them every other day yeah,talked about that just so people
know, because at first they'relike, oh, that's cruel, but no,
and, like you said, they have aplace that they can.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
They can get away and they know that, they know the
game.
And, yeah, people aren'tlooking to get their dogs tore
up there and all that.
They're just, it's just a trial.
And the coyotes, uh, they knowhow it goes too.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
They're smart and they catch on quick you know fox
hunting, you know, uh, it goesmid-dates way back.
You know.
You know on horse, you know, uh, hammers would be on horseback
and they've run fox trials andum, you know that, um, you know
fox will hold up quick and uh,you know there's no harm done to
(17:17):
the fox and um, you know.
Now, on the other side of it,uh, you know like we hunt on the
outside of the fence, um, thereis times where you know we do
harvest the coyote.
There's nothing left at the endof the line.
You know a coyote is a predatorand you know, if we want to
(17:37):
preserve our turkeys and ourrabbits and even deer, you know
we have to not wipe them out, byno means.
But we, you know we need to tryto manage that the best.
We can Be conservative.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
The way I feel about it around here and stuff is any
coyote on the other side of thefence is a good coyote's a dead
coyote.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
I value everyone's opinion, animal rights and stuff
.
I'm glad that we have thosepeople because you know there is
situations where you know, uh,animals are abused and stuff.
And you know, if it wasn't forthem, you know, uh, they
(18:29):
wouldn't have any protection,they wouldn't have no voice.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Yeah, no exactly.
And you know, just depending onhow, as long as the animal
rights people are educated, Iguess, is when I don't have a
problem with them, as long asthey know what they're talking
about, which sometimes isn't toooften.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
But yeah, they do.
They are good for situationswhere there is a need for it,
absolutely, absolutely.
You know, and, like you said,if those folks are educated and
understand the triangle andwhere the line stops and there's
(19:08):
nothing to control thesecoyotes and predators, and you
know they're taken out.
You know, um, just wiping therabbits and the turkeys and the
pheasants, um, and deer, youknow, I've seen coyotes, so I've
had coyotes on trail cameraswhere they were dragging fawns
and small doe and stuff.
You know, back their dens, youknow, and that's not a bad thing
(19:32):
, you know.
Know they have to eat too, Um,but if we don't help control
that population and play and doour part, um, it's not going to
be good, it's going to wipe allgame out.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Yeah, oh, absolutely they.
They need to be managed.
So I mean, I'm curious.
So how do you uh, we'll startfrom the beginning how do you
start a pop on coyotes?
How do you use man's bestfriend to hunt another canine?
Which is really unique in a waythat I think, is that they're
working for us against their ownand you know a fellow canine
animal group.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yes, yes, and the same family.
Yeah, so you know, you get apup and you, you know, usually,
you know there's there's twodifferent types of hounds.
Um, and maybe not a lot ofpeople know this, uh, but
there's definitely distinctive,two different types of hounds,
and it don't matter what breedof hounds, what you know, you
(20:32):
can have july walkers, you canhave running walkers, you can
have tree and walkers plots, youknow blackmouth curs.
Um, you don't matter what kindof dog it is, don't matter what
kind of breed it is, but each,each, you know you have a jump
dog, cold nose jump dog, and youhave a pack dog, um, and uh,
(20:58):
depending on what you're lookingfor, uh, is what you, what you
get now?
Um, you know, I have, uh, onereally cold jump dog, really
cold nose jump dog.
She will cold-nosed jump dog,she will search and search and
search and she can pick scent up.
(21:20):
She's slower, she's good, andthen, as soon as she's jumped, I
have two other, I have a JulyWalker and a Krogan Walker,
krogan long-legged Walker, andas soon as she's jumped, they
know a Krogan Walker, a Kroganlong-legged Walker.
And, uh, I, I, just as soon asshe's jumped, they know, all I
gotta do is open the box up.
(21:40):
They'll hear her barking andthey'll go.
They'll bark right in, they'llgo right into her and, uh, the
chase is on.
So, as a puppy, you gotta, yougotta know what you want to
start with.
You know, do you need pack dogsor do you need a jump dog?
You know, if you're looking fora jump dog you need to make
(22:02):
sure that the mom and the dadalso have cold nose and they're
jump dogs.
You know it kind of keeps theline going and you get that
puppy and you know you'll startthat puppy on a drag.
The first thing is, when I havea puppy, I work with obedience.
(22:22):
I want them tone broke, I wantthem to follow commands.
So, just basically, like yourhouse dog that sleeps in bed
with you, you want a good,obedient dog that'll listen.
So that's what you start with.
And then you start moving intosome scent and some drags and
(22:48):
make it fun as a dog gets alittle older.
You don't really want to starta real young, young puppy.
Uh, you throw a puppy in a packthat's grumped and running and
they're gonna run and what'llhappen is you'll break their
back end down.
Uh, they're not built to runlike that yet.
(23:11):
Um, but you know you slowlyintroduce them.
The best way I mean you cantake them to a pen and do it,
you can do that but ultimatelythe best way is to have an older
jump dog and you just run thosetwo together.
(23:31):
You put that puppy with thatolder jump dog and let that
older jump dog pretty much passon what he or she can do to the
puppy and she'll teach thatpuppy.
Now you pack dogs.
You know you want them to be,you want them to listen, you
want them to be obedient.
Same thing it's.
Actually, in my opinion it's alittle harder to train a pack
(23:52):
dog than it is a jump dog.
In my opinion it's a littleharder to train a pack dog than
it is a jump dog, because yourpack dog, if it won't, you know
if he won't go when the otherdogs are barking, if he won't go
to them, then you know it makesit hard.
But you know you walk them in.
You walk them in and you, ifyou treat them good, you know
(24:13):
they hear the mother dog barking.
And as soon as you see thattail wagging and stop wagging
and looking in the direction,you know the the light bulb is
kind of clicks one day and uh,and they'll.
They might run up down the roada little bit, they might run
around the truck, they mightjump on you and try to get your
sausage biscuit out of your coatpocket pocket, you know, but
(24:38):
that's okay.
That's okay because they'repack dogs, you know.
Uh, you're working, you knowjump dog is in there, you know
and doing what is?
You know what he or she'ssupposed to be doing?
Um, so in all reality, you justgot to know what you want, what
you need, and then you work inthat direction with your puppy
and one day, like I said, oneday, eventually the light bulb
(24:59):
will click on and they'll justtake right on to it.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Yeah, so I mean it's similar to training.
Yeah, I guess that's how mosthounds are trained.
That's how I've trained mybeagles and my coon hounds.
It's just the older, moreexperienced one and the puppies
tag along and then, like yousaid, you can see the light bulb
click and they're like oh, thisis what we're doing and I want
to do it.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
I've seen some of the best bloodline, cold nose, I
mean, they'll sniff a trail.
That's, you know, a day old,you know, and I've seen some of
the best, and I've seen some ofthe puppies come out of it.
Um, they would rather, uh,sleep on the couch and that that
would be them.
(25:42):
You know, every, every, everyhound, every dog has its own
personality.
Um, and the more if that dogdon't want to hunt, that dog
isn't gonna hunt, and then themore you work it, work and work
it and you're not getting anyprogress at all, um, then it's
time to find that that puppy, ahome that you know, with kids,
(26:03):
and then you know it's going tosleep inside yeah, yeah, I mean
I find that that's what they saywith any hounds or working dog
hunting dog, I guess is that youcan't train them to hunt.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
You can show them what they to do, but it's either
in them or it's not.
If they want to, they'll learn.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
If they don't want to , it just yeah, it won't happen.
Well, absolutely, I agree 100%.
You know now we're getting intothe coyote hunt.
You know we obviously.
When it snows, it's the bestyou know here in northwestern
Pennsylvania.
(26:42):
If it snows up until 2 am andthen quits, that is the best you
know it covers all the oldtracks up and then the coyotes
are out moving, usually prettyactive between 2 o'clock and
daylight, and usually prettyactive between 2 o'clock and
daylight, and we'll run mountainroads and country roads and
we'll cut tracks.
And what I mean by cuttingtracks is we'll find fresh
(27:04):
tracks and we'll put the jumpdog on that track and sometimes
it takes five minutes andthey're up and running, or
sometimes it takes three hoursand they're up and running.
Now, if we don't have any snowto be able to cut tracks, what
we'll do is sometimes we'll call.
So we'll take a call, likefolks use at nighttime with
(27:27):
thermals and stuff, or duringthe daytime, and we'll call,
we'll howl, and then sometimesthey'll howl back and then we'll
know they're in that block Alot of times.
That don't always work.
You get a smart coyote.
A coyote is just like a hound,I mean in a sense of sense and
smartness.
(27:48):
After you run that coyote itremembers and it starts getting
smarter.
And it starts getting smarterthan a, starts getting smarter
than the dog.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Oh, they're crazy smart.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Sometimes they don't always work.
So, you know, we'll go where wethink there might be a coyote
and we'll either walk the dogsin or we'll turn the dogs loose
and we'll let them the jump dogsand we'll let them do their
thing.
They'll go in and they'll workit and they'll let them do their
thing.
Um, they'll go in and they'llwork it and they'll they'll
sniff it out and, uh, you know,if there ain't nothing in that
(28:18):
block of wood, sometimes theycome back, uh, and then you know
, if there is.
If they get a little bit ofscent, they keep working.
You know conditions have to bealmost perfect to precast for
coyote hunting.
You know if it's raining oranything like that later in the
day it ain't real good toprecast.
(28:38):
You know, usually if we have nosnow and we know we're going to
precast, you know we'll startprecasting dogs four o'clock in
the morning okay, yeah, and forthose that don't know what is
precasting precasting is whereyou have no location of a coyote
(29:00):
or whatever game you're hunting.
Yeah, you don't know, theremight be one in there in the
woods or it might not be one inthe woods.
So free casting is putting thedogs out in the woods, getting
them on the ground and lettingthem work through the woods and
picking up the scents and prettymuch bumping up the coyote and
(29:24):
stuff like that.
The dogs working the dog isthey're called working hounds,
you know, and that's kind ofwhere that comes from free cats.
They're in there working andgetting that coyote up.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, that was a great explanation of it.
Yeah, like you said, whetheryou're working coyotes or coons
or bear, that's yeah, that'sfree casting.
So with I've seen some youtubevideos and stuff of it.
So I mean, if you guys, whenyou guys are hunting the coyotes
and the dogs are running them,is it sometimes like when you're
hunting a rabbit, where youhear them coming, you're
(29:56):
guesstimating where the coyote'sgoing to come out at and you
shoot on the run?
Do they bay it up?
I mean, how does that normallygo that that comes with.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Uh well, okay, let's start with baying coyotes.
Okay, you know, baying a coyoteis kind of the same as creating
a raccoon or a bear or a cat,and what I mean by cat is bobcat
or mountain lion.
So when a dog bays a coyote,that means the coyote has had
(30:29):
enough and the dogs will justpretty much surround it and I
don't want to say hold it therephysically.
They don't physically hold itthere, but they will keep it
from running anymore, whichgives us a chance to get in and
ethically take that coyote out.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yeah, so like I've seen some videos where the
coyotes they're running it likehow a beagles would run a rabbit
, and then you're just kind ofguessing where it's going to
come out at and then you kind ofshoot it on the run.
Does that happen much?
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Oh, yes, yeah, Okay, yep, it takes I'm sorry, uh, it
takes a very, very special uhhound to bait coyote.
Um, it has to have grit and ithas to.
It has to that hound has tohave a bigger heart than you
could ever think of.
Yeah, um, now, a lot of timesthat coyote is anywhere from 100
(31:31):
yards to 300 to 300 yards infront of, uh, you know, your
hound.
Okay, that's quite a stretch.
So we usually don't, we, weusually hunt the same and the
coyotes usually come out andtake the same trails every time.
(31:53):
They're not even the samecoyote, but they'll run those
same trails every time.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
So like a rabbit.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Another thing a coyote will do is it'll get
behind deer to try to throw thedogs off, so it'll get the deer
running.
The coyote will get behind thedeer and then it'll cut off from
the deer and it'll try to getthe deer to try to throw the
dogs off.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
That's smart, that's very smart yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yes, yes, they are, and the more you run them, the
smarter they get.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah, so then when they're running, so that's when
you guys are trying to get readyfor a shot.
So are you guys using?
What are you guys typicallyshooting?
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Are you guys using like buckshot?
Okay, so here in Pennsylvaniayou're allowed to use up to
number four buckshot.
Okay, so we'll use up to numberfour buckshot.
Okay, um, so we'll use up tonumber four buckshot.
I mean, you can use, uh t shot,you can use bb shot, um, but
most of the guys, uh, we took aliking to them, uh, carlson, uh,
(32:58):
coyote chokes and uh, we'll usesome, you know, heavy bb or
number four buckshot, um, andthen, uh, for open fields, uh,
we usually have, uh, uh, we'lluse ar-15s or 223s or you know
bolt actions or you knowsomething that that sense some
(33:20):
of the, some of the older guys,uh, you know they, they, they
mess with us younger, little bityounger generation.
You know they have nothing butshotgun, they're shotgunners and
that's all they believe in.
And you know what?
I can't say nothing.
I mean, there's been timeswhere if I would have had a
shotgun I would have got thatcoyote.
But you know, growing up I waskind of accustomed to that
(33:45):
already growing up.
In eastern North Carolinayou're allowed to use buckshot
down there for deer hunting andyou can use whatever buckshot
you want.
You know number one, number two, double lock, triple lock.
You know it don't matter, buthere in Pennsylvania you're not
allowed to use buckshot to huntdeer with.
Here in Pennsylvania you're notallowed to use buckshot to hunt
(34:09):
deer with.
So they only allow you to go upto number four size buckshot
for coyote hunting, which ismore than enough to knock down a
coyote.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Yeah, and then.
So that's how the coyote.
Okay, so that's interesting,that's how the hunt goes.
I was wondering that, if it was, it's almost similar to.
Well, I've heard to a rabbithunt.
I've heard one guy describe itas he said think to a rabbit
hunt.
I've heard one guy describe itas think of your worst day
rabbit hunting.
The rabbits are just runningand firing going.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
That's typically a coyote hunt Compared to a rabbit
hunt, you know how usually yourdogs will swing that rabbit and
bring it back around to you.
The difference is coyote willwill straight line, um, and
that's kind of how you know.
We use, uh, varmint um trackers.
(34:55):
Uh, we have, you know, varminttrackers and handhelds and um,
usually you know you can watchon there and you can tell what
they're on.
You know, sometimes when we geton the cat, when that cat trees
, you know we don't have treeand walkers so our dogs don't
stay on the tree so that catwill tree and the dogs will work
(35:18):
a circle and that cat will comeback down and they'll pick it
back up and they'll run it somemore and then that cat will tree
and you can see on yourhandheld, on the Garmin.
You know what it's doing, whatyour dog is doing, how they're
acting, and you'll know Now ifyou see on there them dogs are
straight lining and they're justa booking in a straight line.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
You've got a coyote up here you're rolling, Okay,
yeah.
Yeah, I know I've got the Gargarment as well, and boy, I
wouldn't let my dogs go withoutit.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
No, I wouldn't either .
You know, as far as safety forthe dogs and being able to
control the dogs, yes, you know,we still have.
I would say here innorthwestern Pennsylvania we
have 98% of people that say go,you know you're not allowed to
deer hunt, you're not allowed tobear, know you're not allowed
(36:09):
to deer hunt, you ain't allowedto bear hunt, you ain't allowed
to do nothing.
But if you want to run yourdogs on my property and shoot
coyotes, and then you know wegot that other percent that are
farmers and they say I don'twant the coyote shot, I want
them to kill the deer becausethe deer are eating all my crops
.
Yeah, but it makes it nice.
So you know, cause, when I back, when we were talking about a
puppy, and how does it startwith a puppy, Well, you know,
(36:31):
you tone, you, you tone, trainthat puppy, you horn, train that
puppy.
So when that dog, when thatpuppy becomes a dog and a hound,
uh, that's that's running andworking for you.
Now, if he's headed towardsproperty, that property that you
know that we don't know how tobe on, you know you can push a
button on that handheld andit'll beep, that collar will
(36:53):
beep, and he or she the houndknows.
All right, I'm stopping, I'mturning around and I'm going
right back on my tracks and myhandler will be right there
waiting on me.
Things have calmed down a lotaround here since folks know
that we can control our dogs.
We can control a lot of times.
(37:16):
We can control where they goand where they don't.
I don't know about anybodyelse's, but my hounds can't read
posted signs.
I don't know about anybodyelse's, but my homes can't read
postage signs and there's timesthat they might get in a little
block or they might get on ablock or a piece of property
that they shouldn't be on and wecan't get them off.
(37:39):
They're just that determinedthey want to do such a good job
and they're that determinedthey're going to get that.
They're hunting, they're doingwhat they're supposed to do such
a good job and they're thatdetermined they're going to get
that.
They're hunting, they're doingwhat they're supposed to do.
And what will happen is we'llgo to that homeowner.
We'll go and I'll knock on thedoor and tell them who I am.
Hey, I'm John Ferringer.
I'm from this area here.
(38:00):
We were running three milesfrom here and this coyote just
straight lined and the dogs arechasing and they're in the back
of the woods here.
Usually we won't shoot thecoyote, we'll just go in and can
we please just get our dogs?
A lot of times you'll findthey'll tell you no, shoot that
thing.
I got chickens, they've beenkilling my chickens or something
(38:23):
like that.
But then you got people say,okay, that's fine, know, don't
shoot that coyote, but you'remore than welcome.
You know, walk down to thebackyard, into the woods and get
your dogs.
And you know, we understand,and you know.
And then you got about one ortwo percent that are just irate.
No matter what you do, you canmake them happy and, uh, you
know, you end up got a call, youknow the wildlife officer, and
(38:47):
they come out and they make thehomeowner, you know, or the
landowner.
They make them.
Let us go in and get her housebecause by law you know they
have to.
Let us get them, you know yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Yeah, john, you were saying something earlier about
the Krogan Walker and we talkedabout that a bit last night.
Could you kind of tell aboutthat dog that you have there,
because I know it's kind ofunique yes, uh.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
So, um, the crogan bloodline, uh, walker, um, a
fella named bill crogan from outwest, um, he started that
bloodline and they were bredespecially for running just
coyote.
And in the beginning I was like, yeah, come on now.
(39:34):
I've seen every dog shine andI've seen every dog have bad
days and there's times they jumpstuff and run it when they're
not supposed to be.
But I will say that Mr BillKrogan unfortunately he's not
with us anymore, he's passed buthe is one fine houndstooth.
(39:56):
He knew what he was doing, hedeveloped me, he made that breed
of dog.
And my fancy girl, you knowshe's K's croaking and she will
not chase nothing but a coyote.
Um, you can put, you can put 10bobcat right in front of her,
you can put 10 cats in front ofher, you can put a whole herd of
(40:17):
deer, but you, she will notchase nothing but a coyote.
And that's how.
Another reason uh, you know, ifwe somebody's jumping around
and they say, no, we don't knowif it's a cat or we don't know
if it's a coyote, we're not sure, and it's acting like this, but
we don't know.
No, one's seen it yet They'llget on the radio and tell me hey
(40:40):
, put Fancy in.
We need to know if this is acoyote or not and I'll put her
in If she comes back to me.
It ain't a coyote If she goesin and she starts hammering.
Yeah, if she goes in and startshammering them and starts
rolling them, it's a coyote.
And in the beginning I neverreally talked much about it.
(41:01):
When I first got her I neverreally.
You know, I wasn't a believer.
I'm going to be honest with you.
I was not a believer becauseI've seen some of the best, most
expensive dogs.
You know that dog will not,that dog will not chase a deer
and I've seen that dog chase adeer.
So I didn't.
I didn't talk much about itwhen I first got her.
(41:21):
But about six months in withFancy, she made me a believer.
She will not chase nothing.
She will not hunt or run, chasenothing but a coyote.
I'll tell you, mr Bill Kroganbuddy, he knew what he was doing
, he was a true houndstooth andI'm just very fortunate to have
(41:44):
her.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Yeah, it's really cool hearing about a unique
breed or bloodline within youknow the hound world.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
The July walkers.
You know they're just a runningwalker, they're like your tree
and walkers, but they don'treally stick to a tree and
they're a little faster.
You know they're a little moreslinky and a little more faster.
Um, and uh, you know just, uh,just a part of a part of a breed
(42:18):
that that somebody came up with.
And uh, you know, just like, uh, I mean, like I said before,
when you're going back to thepuppies, you know, just like I
mean, like I said before, whenyou're going back to the puppies
, you know you take your bestmale and your best female and
you just hope they throw somegood puppies and carry them
straight.
And but those, I will say, youknow, my fancy girl.
(42:41):
She is, she is the dog, she ismy pride, they're all my pride,
but she shines, she shines and.
I'm not saying one day that shemight not chase a cat or, you
know, get on something she ain'tsupposed to, because every
they're just like humans.
(43:02):
You know we have good days andbad days.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Sure, yeah, lee yeah, joe, and I can't thank you
enough for coming on the podcasthere and giving us an inside
look at this world of coyotehounds and, you know, I think
probably some people havelearned some things today and
just get a little more of anunderstanding about what they
(43:25):
might see or hear about.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
I really appreciate you havingme on here.
I certainly don't knoweverything about the hunting
world and I learn every day.
You know something different.
You know that's the great thingabout being a houndsman, you
know.
You got that opportunity to tosee different things and see how
(43:51):
your dogs react and your houndshow they, how they do in
different situations as far asweather and terrain and, um, you
know, uh, it just, I guess itall just boils down to the love
of a hound.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
You know, oh, absolutely, and I find that you
know every the love of a hound,oh, absolutely, and I find that
every time you take the houndsout, they'll teach you something
new, whether you're payingattention or not.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, I just, I really can't.
I have no words how to explain.
I really just don't know how toexplain it without somebody
just experiencing it.
You know you like sushi or youdon't like sushi.
(44:36):
You ain't going to get used toeating it, you know.
So you either like it andaccept the responsibility of
being a houndsman a hundredpercent and, uh, you enjoy it as
a way of life.
Um, it's not just a hobby.
You know that you can.
You know, uh, pick up and youknow just, you know, a couple
(44:59):
months down the road, so I don'twant to do this, no more.
You need to make sure that youcan accept the responsibility of
being a houndsman and takingcare of them hounds.
Before you decide to get hounds,I always tell I've had a couple
guys, I'm going to go onFacebook and I'm going to get me
some hounds and I'm going to dothis.
(45:21):
I tell them hey, we got plentyof hounds.
You know the group, the group Ihunt with, is a fine group of
guys and women.
I mean they.
They will let you ride withthem every single time and not
even ask for a penny for gas,and even share their lunch with
you.
You know what I mean.
Fine group, I tell you, hey,come hunt with us.
(45:46):
Make sure this is what youreally want to do before you go
getting hounds, because that's awhole different responsibility.
I would suggest going by you anice auto shotgun and get you a
good choke and get a patternwith a good buckshot or BB.
I would suggest starting thereand maybe get you a handheld or
get you a handheld radio that wecommunicate on.
(46:07):
Make sure this is what youreally want, because when you to
me as a houndsman, when I pickup a puppy or even a
well-seasoned train, that's awhole different level of
responsibility and you've got tomake sure that it's not just
something you're going to pickup, even a well-seasoned train.
That's a whole different levelof responsibility and you've got
(46:28):
to make sure that it's not justsomething you're going to pick
up and throw down in a couplemonths.
It ain't fair to the hound, itain't fair to us houndsmen to
see that.
So I will say if you want agood time and see what it's all
about, you're more than welcometo come over here to
northwestern Pennsylvania andwe'll do the best we can to give
(46:51):
you a good experience.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
That's great.
Thanks, john.
Yeah, I mean just echoing onwhat you're saying.
There being a houndsman it's alifestyle.
I mean some deer hunters try tosay it is too, and it is to an
extent.
But the hounds it's lifestylein the fact that it's 365 days a
year.
It's not like you're going outand getting the dust off the old
duck blind or you know, oilingup your tree stand to take it in
(47:17):
the fall, right, it's not likethat.
You don't just put it away andI'll see you in a few months or,
you know, six months orwhatever it's.
It's every day absolutely now.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
I'm gonna tell you.
You know, if I drop and crackthe stock on my you know my
browning you know I'm gonna beupset.
I'm not even shedding tears,I'm not gonna lie to you.
But I tell you what?
If I lose a hound?
I'm going to be heartbroken.
Yeah, you know I can replacethat shotgun.
That hound is like my kid.
(47:48):
You know, each hound I have isnot replaceable.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
Yeah, now it's something great that I hope a
lot of hunters can get anexperience.
Like I said, I've brought a lotof people with me hound hunting
and most all of them willprobably never get their own
just because of that lifestyle.
But I'll tell you anytime I'moffering to bring them along.
They're right there ready to go.
So that's all you can ask thatworks for me yeah, absolutely,
(48:17):
yep, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
You know, and uh, I'm a firm believer of getting the
younger generation in.
You know, I couldn't imagine,you know, growing up I couldn't
imagine a Saturday morning notsitting shotgun, you know, with
my grandpa or, you know, justfriends.
(48:41):
I couldn't imagine a Saturdaymorning morning not, you know,
putting a tailgate down and openthat dog box up.
I just um, you know, and Ithink, uh, it is a slowly.
I think hunting in general isslowly declining, you know,
because we're not, we're notgetting that younger generation
out.
You know, take the time.
You know, um.
(49:01):
You know, um.
You know, get that that little,that little fellow or that
little girl out there and and uh, you know, you know, show them
the ropes and teach them.
Uh, you know, ethics andresponsibility.
You know, uh, gunresponsibility and uh, just
outdoor.
You know, uh, in general, to bea good person.
(49:22):
You know, um, there ain't verymany hounds that I've never not
trusted.
You know, uh and uh, you know,I think that's a, it's a slowly
dying breed.
You know, we've got to getthese younger folks out here.
And um, you know, and it mightnot be, it might not be coyote
(49:43):
hunting with hounds and it mightnot be raccoon hunting or bear
hunting or deer hunting.
You know what I mean.
You know, just to get them outin the outdoors though, to have
a voice, you know, to be able toshare their opinion and find
something that they can findpeace.
You know that's another thingthat I'm a firm believer.
You know it's not all aboutshooting a coyote.
That's another thing that I'm afirm believer in.
(50:03):
It's not all about shooting acoyote, it's not all about
shooting a monster buck or astate record bear.
That's what I've taught mylittle boy and girl.
They love to hunt.
I absolutely die hard.
My boy is seven, my daughter isfive, my wife is an avid white
(50:27):
tail hunter, so I have a littlebit of help there, thank god.
You know, like I said, she's atrooper.
Uh, you know, I don't care whatit is, I don't.
You know, they might, you know,get older and say you know that
I really don't want to.
I don't really want to whitetail hunt.
You know, I just, I just wantto, maybe bear hunt.
There's something about it, youknow, and I'm going to do
everything I can do to make surethat they have the tools and
(50:50):
the knowledge maybe to besuccessful, to even you know to
take that responsibility on andand achieve it.
Um, I just you know the samewith fishing, you know'm not a
fisherman.
I'll tell you right now I amnot a sport fisherman.
I'm not.
(51:11):
I'm going to tell you what I gofishing to drink a beer, yeah.
I like to catch.
I don't like to fish, yeah,right, right, uh, you know, and
that ain't very often, but uh,term of word jared to express I
am not a fisherman, you know.
Yeah, uh, which is crazy.
You know, growing up in easternnorth carolina, you know you
(51:33):
got the rivers and the ocean andstuff and I enjoy saltwater
fishing a little bit.
I mean I can do it.
Uh, it helps pass time to getdeer or, you know, get the
hunting season yeah, yeah,that's what it's a yeah, it's a
bridge absolutely you know.
But back to, you know, gettingthese youngsters out here, you
know getting this youngergeneration and you know, uh, and
(51:55):
some may do it until they're 18or 15 or 16, or you know some
may do it, just because you knowdad likes to do it.
So I'm gonna hang out with dadand mom and, um, you know, and
that's okay, but you've, you'vegiven them a tool, at least you
know, to have that option ifthey wanted to pursue it.
Speaker 1 (52:14):
Um, it's uh, yep, any any kind of hunting is.
You know someone goes out anddoes it's.
It's someone else on our, onour side and on our team when it
comes to, uh, you know, votingand and talking about common
sense, sometimes too, to peoplethat uh are against it but have
no idea about it yeah,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
You know, and you I think another big part of you
know teaching the youngergeneration also, to teach them
to have respect for the onesthat don't have no interest in
it.
You know the ones that thatdon't uh, hunt or fish or you
know, um, you know, have respectfor them too.
You know, respect their, theirthoughts and their values,
(52:57):
because it's worth something.
Um, I don't know.
I guess I try to be as humbleas I can be and I think you know
, if you do good, good will cometo you, and you know that's
just the way I was raised.
I guess you know to be a goodperson and there's times where
(53:22):
you can't be a good person, butyou know, I guess you know I
grew up and it might offend somepeople, but I apologize if it
does.
You know God, guns and familyis the way I was raised.
(53:43):
I grew up in a Southern Baptistchurch and there's a little bit
about myself there.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
Yeah, no, that's great.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
If you do good, it's better for the whole outcome.
You do good and acceptresponsibility and do what you
got to do.
You do get rewarded from that.
It does come back around theback end, you know um I couldn't
, I couldn't agree more with allthat.
Speaker 1 (54:09):
Uh, john, you've been , you've been really great to
talk to and uh, I hope to haveyou back on again because you're
you're great to have aconversation with about all this
and uh, it's been a lot of fun.
So, uh, thanks for, uh, yeah,thanks so much for telling us
about the coyote hunting and uh,I think, uh, yeah, hopefully
definitely be hearing from youagain later this winter yeah,
(54:30):
yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (54:32):
Um, I keep a journal every year.
Um, every day I go out, youknow we go out, you know, um,
that night I get back and geteverything done and hounds put
up and taken care of and dinnerand family time a little bit.
I always write in the journal.
If you're willing to have me, Iwould love to come back on and
(54:55):
maybe give an update on how ourseason's going.
Yeah, that'd be great.
Any changes or anything that'shappened.
That would be great.
I would love to share the storywith as many that would like to
listen.
Speaker 1 (55:09):
Well, I'll tell you we'd like to hear it.
I know I sure would.
Speaker 2 (55:12):
Definitely can't wait .
We're just getting started inour coyote season here in PA and
it's turning out pretty good.
Like I said, we've got sixinches of snow tonight.
It's supposed to cut off herepretty soon.
About midnight, 1 o'clock, thecoyote is going to be up and
(55:33):
moving.
We'll be cutting tracks in themorning and turning the dogs out
, dropping the tailgate.
Speaker 1 (55:41):
Sounds like a good Saturday morning.
Well, John, I wish you guys allthe best this season.
We'll be talking again to seehow it went.
this is hunts on outfitting podcast.
I'm your host and rookie guide,ken meyer.
I love everything hunting theoutdoors and all things
associated with it, from storiesto howos.
You'll find it here.
Welcome to the podcast.
Okay, thanks for everyone tuningin to this week's episode of
(00:32):
Huntsman Outfitting Podcast.
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So this week on the podcastwe've got John Farringer talking
about coyote hunting.
(00:53):
Now, most of us as hunters nodoorsmen and women, you know,
when the off season comes, deerseason's over or something we're
hunting coyotes.
We're doing our part forpredator management and helping
protect the deer herds and smallgame animals that we enjoy to
hunt ourselves.
Coyotes are a predator thatreally need to be managed.
(01:13):
So a lot of us will findourselves, you know, going out
and trying to get a few dogs ifwe can.
But have you ever tried doingit with hounds?
Well, if you have, you're goingto enjoy this.
If you have, you're going toenjoy this.
If you haven't.
You're going to enjoy thisepisode, too and probably learn
a lot.
We cover a vast array of topicsinvolving coyote hunting with
(01:34):
hounds.
John's knowledgeable on thisand has been doing it for a
while.
He has a lot of great insightson it and tells about the
training, choosing the dogs thathe likes to use, the types of
guns and ammo used all that, soI think you're really going to
enjoy it.
In this episode, too, we'regoing to be talking about
(01:54):
working dogs, and if you guysare looking for something to
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(02:17):
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I hope you enjoy the podcast.
(02:38):
So you're living inPennsylvania, originally from?
Is it North or South CarolinaNorth?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Carolina Born and raised or South Carolina, north
Carolina Born and raised grew upin eastern North Carolina and I
currently, you know, have beenliving in Pennsylvania for about
19 years now.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Okay, yeah, so definitely a resident.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Yes, yep.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah.
So, john, you know.
Thanks so much for reaching outto me and I'm excited to have
you on and learn.
I mean, I love any working dog,especially hounds, and I'm
excited to learn about, you know, running coyotes with hounds.
But before we get into that,you know what was your start in
hunting?
Because when we were talkinglast night you were saying that
(03:22):
you really grew up in the houndculture.
Yeah, yeah, when we weretalking last night you were
saying that you really grew upin the hale culture.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, yeah.
So you know, growing up ineastern North Carolina it was
pretty much just a way of life.
You know we grew up, startedout with rabbit, beagles and
stuff and then from there, youknow, as I got older, I moved
into running deer with hounds Alot of people, you know, don't
(03:49):
agree with them and stuff but in, you know, eastern North
Carolina it's just a way of lifeand it's just the way they did
things down there.
It's a lot of fun.
The sportsman's part of it, youknow, I see both sides.
It's a lot of fun.
The sportsman's part of it.
(04:09):
I see both sides.
I see your tree stand, huntersand stuff.
I think there's room for all ofus to share the wood and the
great outdoors.
Respect goes a long ways.
If you have respect for eachother and value each other's
thoughts on hunting and stuff,you know, I think we can all all
(04:30):
share the like.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I said, I'll share the great outdoors and it'll be
a great time for everybody well,yeah, exactly, I find that,
even though you know some aresitting in a tree, some are
running with hounds or whatever,um, we're all hunters, so we're
all on the you know should beall on the same team, really
absolutely yes, um, and you know, I, honestly, even growing up,
(04:54):
you know, as far back as I canremember, um, never had any, any
encounters.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Uh, the group of guys and stuff and girls that my
family hunted with andeverything throughout the county
.
There was never any issues.
We respected each other.
We knew the neighbor.
If he was hunting a buck and hewas going to be in a stand, you
(05:25):
know we stayed away from them,them blocks of wood, um, and as
far we turned into respect, um,you know he, he would let us
know, hey, uh, he must've movedout, or hey, he harvested, or um
, the communication was great,um, and the level of respect was
was great, and the level ofrespect was great, and so it
(05:48):
worked out really well.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, I mean, that's what it's all about as sportsmen
.
So, with growing up all aroundhands, did you guys run coyote
hands when you were younger?
Speaker 2 (06:04):
So growing up we had fox and coyote pens, trout pens
and we would use those pens totrain puppies and stuff.
Um, we never really got intothe field trawling um, my family
and you know the group that wehunted good um, nothing wrong
with it at all.
I mean absolutely nothing.
I mean it's a great sport, Imean if you want to sit on your
(06:25):
tailgate and listen to houndsrun all night long.
I've been to them and it'sgreat.
I mean sometimes you get two orthree hundred hounds on a trial
and it just sounds like you'reknocking trees over.
I mean it's, it's a greatfeeling, you know.
Um, but we just never reallygot into that.
We had all outside running dogsand our hounds would run deer
(06:51):
and we would start puppies onfox and coyote because they kind
of have the same scent as adeer.
Now, as far as the coyotehunting coming about, so when I
moved up to PA back in 2004, Iwas kind of lost.
I didn't know, you know, I meanI knew how to hunt out of a
(07:15):
tree.
You know deer stand.
I mean I knew how to hunt outof a tree stand or a shanty or,
you know, sit on the edge of acornfield or you know, walk the
woods and the streams and youknow up to the mountain wall and
stuff and I knew how to do that.
But deep down in my heart youknow where I wanted to be.
As far as you know hunting withhounds, you know you can't do
(07:39):
that in Pennsylvania you can'trun deer or bear or anything
like that in Pennsylvania, whichis fun.
I respect the law.
And one day I was at the gasstation and I'd seen a guy
sitting there.
He had a dog box in the back ofhis truck and it was a fairly
large dog box and I knew, man,unless he had like eight coon
(08:02):
hounds, you know, I'm wonderingwhat he's running.
You know, yeah, absolutely.
And so I asked, I said you know.
I said hey, buddy, I don't wantto impede on your business or
anything.
I said, but ask what you'rerunning here.
You know what you're hunting?
He says coyotes.
We're running using Julywalkers, running walkers and
(08:22):
long-legged walkers.
We hunt coyotes.
And I said to him, I said well,a little bit of a short, brief
background, and he invited meright along.
I could have went that day withhim, you know, and I didn't,
(08:43):
but I got into it and it wasjust like being back home again
and it was a great feeling Forme.
I don't know what it is.
The sound of a hound is like noother and I really don't know
any other way to explain itwithout somebody experiencing it
(09:03):
.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yeah, it is.
For those of us who arefortunate enough to experience
it is hard to put into words andyeah, that's why, like I run
Coonhounds a lot and my Beaglestoo, and I take out as many new
people as I can, just so theyexperience it.
And I don't expect everyone toget their own dog and stuff, but
at least they understand it andthey get to experience that.
And that's just someone elseyou know on our side.
(09:26):
For if that issue ever comes up, say in a negative way, then
they say, well, actually I wentalong and had a great time and
this is actually what it's likeand stuff.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Oh, absolutely.
I mean I've even invited, youknow, folks to my house and to
show them.
You know the work that we do.
You know we don't just, youknow, put these hounds in a pen
and take them out and run themand put them back in the pen.
You know they're part of thefamily.
I mean my kids play with them.
(09:56):
And you know my wife, you knowGod bless her heart.
I got a really strong, strong,strong wife.
I mean with my employment, myjob that I do.
If it wasn't for her I would notbe able to do and have hounds.
I mean I could hunt with thefolks but I wouldn't be able to
have my own hound.
(10:17):
There's a lot of work that weput into them, spending time
with them and training them.
I don't ever look at the priceof what I paid for a hound
because you know you meet folksand say, oh, I got the best
hounds in the county or thestate and you know I have good
(10:38):
hounds.
I think every day a hound hasits day.
I can take my best hound I gotand he'll make a liar out of me,
or she'll make a liar out of meand I can take a, you know, a
fresh young pup that I thinkthat is almost there but not
quite there, and she'll justshot.
(10:59):
I mean she'll, I mean she'll,she'll cold trail, she'll jump
that coyote and'll run thatcoyote until she can't run no
more.
And you know every hound hasits day.
But back to you know they're apart of the family.
I mean they're not abused,they're not.
You know they don't get fed,you know they're very well taken
(11:26):
care of.
And then vet bills and shotsand just making sure they're
healthy.
There's a lot of work that'sinvolved in it.
You have to find somewhere deepdown in your heart and be to be
a true hound.
(11:46):
Um, now, on the flip side ofthat, uh, it's very addictive, I
mean for me.
For me it is.
You know, when I hear thathound, when I hear that hound,
you know chopping a little bit,chop a little bit, cold,
trailing, and when he startsstriking and you know all you
hear is a bellow and a, you knowjust hammering.
(12:09):
You know he's up and jumping orrunning.
You know that hair on the backof my neck stands up.
And just about everybody thatI've taken out to show them that
experience, you know they feelthe same way, and not every one
of them, like you said, you know, has hounds, but they buy
tractors, they buy a dog box sothey can help catch up dogs.
(12:31):
You know they're fully involved, you know.
And for whatever reason they be,they might not be in a
situation where they can havehounds.
You know they take a little bitof property.
They're not going to have tolive in the city.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, well, they're not like a golden retriever or
something you know the houndsare.
They're unique and they can bevery intense dogs, I guess you
could say at times.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yes, yes, very intense, you know, and there's
all kinds.
There's all kinds.
You, you might go through, youknow you and I'm not saying that
they're bad hounds but youmight go through five, six, ten,
fifteen hounds until you findthat one that fits you.
Um, you work hand in hand.
You know when I, when I back upto a, a clear cut or a lay down
(13:22):
or along the edge of the road,I opened that box up, all I got
to do is walk in the direction Iwant them to go and they go.
They know where they they youknow, they know where I want
them to go and and you just gotto find, you got to find them
pounds that your personalitiesmatch.
I mean, it's really weird tothink about it, but when you
(13:44):
actually do it it all comes tolife.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Yeah, exactly, I couldn't agree more.
I just want to back up a bit tosomething you were talking
about just people listening sothey understand.
So you're saying about thecoyote and the fox pens and I
know a little bit about them.
I know that there's a lot ofcontroversy behind them, but
what I do know about them andthen I'll say and you can
correct me if I'm wrong is thatmost of them are a pretty good
(14:09):
size.
I don't know the exact acres,but a lot and I've been told and
seen videos and stuff that Imean these coyotes and foxes and
these pens.
Some people think it's cruel,but they know the game.
The hounds are going to come,they're going to run, but
they're fed and all that.
They're actually looked afterand probably have a better life
than a coyote in the wild.
But I'll let you tell.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Yes, absolutely, and I will stand firm on this.
Those fox and coyote live along, healthy, exciting,
comfortable life.
You know.
They're fed, they have water.
Now here's the thing that maybesome people, or a lot of people
(14:52):
, don't know.
Also, in these pens, you know,there are usually pens averaged
from 50 acres and up.
I don't think I've ever heardor seen or been to a pen that
was under 50 acres.
And when I say 50 acres, youmight have one, maybe two
(15:15):
coyotes in 50 acres.
Now these pen owners, you knowthey build safe havens for these
coyotes and foxes, so they havebarrels and stuff that they go
into when they're done runningand they've had enough.
They don't just lay over andlet the coyote.
(15:35):
You know the hound catch thecoyote and there's no fighting.
You know the coyote knows whereit's home is, where it sleeps,
and it goes.
It'll hole up and the dogscan't get to it and there's no
harm done.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Yeah, and these coyotes, you know, they're not
fighting with one another allthe time, they're not trying to
scrimp and get food and bestarving and they're not, you
know, worried about gettingdifferent kinds of diseases and
all that.
And yeah, no cause.
We have a province here inCanada, ontario, and there's
still some pens there andthere's been a lot of, you know,
of course, animal rights groupsand all that trying to shut
(16:10):
them down.
But, like you know, I'm gladwe're talking about this.
They don't realize that I meanthese things.
They do.
They have a much better lifethan a wild coyote.
They're safe there andeverything's kind of controlled
enough for them in a comfortableway, almost like a beef cow, I
guess you could say.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
There's no need for them tofight over food when each one of
them have an average of five orten pounds of food put out for
them every other day yeah,talked about that just so people
know, because at first they'relike, oh, that's cruel, but no,
and, like you said, they have aplace that they can.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
They can get away and they know that, they know the
game.
And, yeah, people aren'tlooking to get their dogs tore
up there and all that.
They're just, it's just a trial.
And the coyotes, uh, they knowhow it goes too.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
They're smart and they catch on quick you know fox
hunting, you know, uh, it goesmid-dates way back.
You know.
You know on horse, you know, uh, hammers would be on horseback
and they've run fox trials andum, you know that, um, you know
fox will hold up quick and uh,you know there's no harm done to
(17:17):
the fox and um, you know.
Now, on the other side of it,uh, you know like we hunt on the
outside of the fence, um, thereis times where you know we do
harvest the coyote.
There's nothing left at the endof the line.
You know a coyote is a predatorand you know, if we want to
(17:37):
preserve our turkeys and ourrabbits and even deer, you know
we have to not wipe them out, byno means.
But we, you know we need to tryto manage that the best.
We can Be conservative.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
The way I feel about it around here and stuff is any
coyote on the other side of thefence is a good coyote's a dead
coyote.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
I value everyone's opinion, animal rights and stuff
.
I'm glad that we have thosepeople because you know there is
situations where you know, uh,animals are abused and stuff.
And you know, if it wasn't forthem, you know, uh, they
(18:29):
wouldn't have any protection,they wouldn't have no voice.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Yeah, no exactly.
And you know, just depending onhow, as long as the animal
rights people are educated, Iguess, is when I don't have a
problem with them, as long asthey know what they're talking
about, which sometimes isn't toooften.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
But yeah, they do.
They are good for situationswhere there is a need for it,
absolutely, absolutely.
You know, and, like you said,if those folks are educated and
understand the triangle andwhere the line stops and there's
(19:08):
nothing to control thesecoyotes and predators, and you
know they're taken out.
You know, um, just wiping therabbits and the turkeys and the
pheasants, um, and deer, youknow, I've seen coyotes, so I've
had coyotes on trail cameraswhere they were dragging fawns
and small doe and stuff.
You know, back their dens, youknow, and that's not a bad thing
(19:32):
, you know.
Know they have to eat too, Um,but if we don't help control
that population and play and doour part, um, it's not going to
be good, it's going to wipe allgame out.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Yeah, oh, absolutely they.
They need to be managed.
So I mean, I'm curious.
So how do you uh, we'll startfrom the beginning how do you
start a pop on coyotes?
How do you use man's bestfriend to hunt another canine?
Which is really unique in a waythat I think, is that they're
working for us against their ownand you know a fellow canine
animal group.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yes, yes, and the same family.
Yeah, so you know, you get apup and you, you know, usually,
you know there's there's twodifferent types of hounds.
Um, and maybe not a lot ofpeople know this, uh, but
there's definitely distinctive,two different types of hounds,
and it don't matter what breedof hounds, what you know, you
(20:32):
can have july walkers, you canhave running walkers, you can
have tree and walkers plots, youknow blackmouth curs.
Um, you don't matter what kindof dog it is, don't matter what
kind of breed it is, but each,each, you know you have a jump
dog, cold nose jump dog, and youhave a pack dog, um, and uh,
(20:58):
depending on what you're lookingfor, uh, is what you, what you
get now?
Um, you know, I have, uh, onereally cold jump dog, really
cold nose jump dog.
She will cold-nosed jump dog,she will search and search and
search and she can pick scent up.
(21:20):
She's slower, she's good, andthen, as soon as she's jumped, I
have two other, I have a JulyWalker and a Krogan Walker,
krogan long-legged Walker, andas soon as she's jumped, they
know a Krogan Walker, a Kroganlong-legged Walker.
And, uh, I, I, just as soon asshe's jumped, they know, all I
gotta do is open the box up.
(21:40):
They'll hear her barking andthey'll go.
They'll bark right in, they'llgo right into her and, uh, the
chase is on.
So, as a puppy, you gotta, yougotta know what you want to
start with.
You know, do you need pack dogsor do you need a jump dog?
You know, if you're looking fora jump dog you need to make
(22:02):
sure that the mom and the dadalso have cold nose and they're
jump dogs.
You know it kind of keeps theline going and you get that
puppy and you know you'll startthat puppy on a drag.
The first thing is, when I havea puppy, I work with obedience.
(22:22):
I want them tone broke, I wantthem to follow commands.
So, just basically, like yourhouse dog that sleeps in bed
with you, you want a good,obedient dog that'll listen.
So that's what you start with.
And then you start moving intosome scent and some drags and
(22:48):
make it fun as a dog gets alittle older.
You don't really want to starta real young, young puppy.
Uh, you throw a puppy in a packthat's grumped and running and
they're gonna run and what'llhappen is you'll break their
back end down.
Uh, they're not built to runlike that yet.
(23:11):
Um, but you know you slowlyintroduce them.
The best way I mean you cantake them to a pen and do it,
you can do that but ultimatelythe best way is to have an older
jump dog and you just run thosetwo together.
(23:31):
You put that puppy with thatolder jump dog and let that
older jump dog pretty much passon what he or she can do to the
puppy and she'll teach thatpuppy.
Now you pack dogs.
You know you want them to be,you want them to listen, you
want them to be obedient.
Same thing it's.
Actually, in my opinion it's alittle harder to train a pack
(23:52):
dog than it is a jump dog.
In my opinion it's a littleharder to train a pack dog than
it is a jump dog, because yourpack dog, if it won't, you know
if he won't go when the otherdogs are barking, if he won't go
to them, then you know it makesit hard.
But you know you walk them in.
You walk them in and you, ifyou treat them good, you know
(24:13):
they hear the mother dog barking.
And as soon as you see thattail wagging and stop wagging
and looking in the direction,you know the the light bulb is
kind of clicks one day and uh,and they'll.
They might run up down the roada little bit, they might run
around the truck, they mightjump on you and try to get your
sausage biscuit out of your coatpocket pocket, you know, but
(24:38):
that's okay.
That's okay because they'repack dogs, you know.
Uh, you're working, you knowjump dog is in there, you know
and doing what is?
You know what he or she'ssupposed to be doing?
Um, so in all reality, you justgot to know what you want, what
you need, and then you work inthat direction with your puppy
and one day, like I said, oneday, eventually the light bulb
(24:59):
will click on and they'll justtake right on to it.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Yeah, so I mean it's similar to training.
Yeah, I guess that's how mosthounds are trained.
That's how I've trained mybeagles and my coon hounds.
It's just the older, moreexperienced one and the puppies
tag along and then, like yousaid, you can see the light bulb
click and they're like oh, thisis what we're doing and I want
to do it.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
I've seen some of the best bloodline, cold nose, I
mean, they'll sniff a trail.
That's, you know, a day old,you know, and I've seen some of
the best, and I've seen some ofthe puppies come out of it.
Um, they would rather, uh,sleep on the couch and that that
would be them.
(25:42):
You know, every, every, everyhound, every dog has its own
personality.
Um, and the more if that dogdon't want to hunt, that dog
isn't gonna hunt, and then themore you work it, work and work
it and you're not getting anyprogress at all, um, then it's
time to find that that puppy, ahome that you know, with kids,
(26:03):
and then you know it's going tosleep inside yeah, yeah, I mean
I find that that's what they saywith any hounds or working dog
hunting dog, I guess is that youcan't train them to hunt.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
You can show them what they to do, but it's either
in them or it's not.
If they want to, they'll learn.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
If they don't want to , it just yeah, it won't happen.
Well, absolutely, I agree 100%.
You know now we're getting intothe coyote hunt.
You know we obviously.
When it snows, it's the bestyou know here in northwestern
Pennsylvania.
(26:42):
If it snows up until 2 am andthen quits, that is the best you
know it covers all the oldtracks up and then the coyotes
are out moving, usually prettyactive between 2 o'clock and
daylight, and usually prettyactive between 2 o'clock and
daylight, and we'll run mountainroads and country roads and
we'll cut tracks.
And what I mean by cuttingtracks is we'll find fresh
(27:04):
tracks and we'll put the jumpdog on that track and sometimes
it takes five minutes andthey're up and running, or
sometimes it takes three hoursand they're up and running.
Now, if we don't have any snowto be able to cut tracks, what
we'll do is sometimes we'll call.
So we'll take a call, likefolks use at nighttime with
(27:27):
thermals and stuff, or duringthe daytime, and we'll call,
we'll howl, and then sometimesthey'll howl back and then we'll
know they're in that block Alot of times.
That don't always work.
You get a smart coyote.
A coyote is just like a hound,I mean in a sense of sense and
smartness.
(27:48):
After you run that coyote itremembers and it starts getting
smarter.
And it starts getting smarterthan a, starts getting smarter
than the dog.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Oh, they're crazy smart.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Sometimes they don't always work.
So, you know, we'll go where wethink there might be a coyote
and we'll either walk the dogsin or we'll turn the dogs loose
and we'll let them the jump dogsand we'll let them do their
thing.
They'll go in and they'll workit and they'll let them do their
thing.
Um, they'll go in and they'llwork it and they'll they'll
sniff it out and, uh, you know,if there ain't nothing in that
(28:18):
block of wood, sometimes theycome back, uh, and then you know
, if there is.
If they get a little bit ofscent, they keep working.
You know conditions have to bealmost perfect to precast for
coyote hunting.
You know if it's raining oranything like that later in the
day it ain't real good toprecast.
(28:38):
You know, usually if we have nosnow and we know we're going to
precast, you know we'll startprecasting dogs four o'clock in
the morning okay, yeah, and forthose that don't know what is
precasting precasting is whereyou have no location of a coyote
(29:00):
or whatever game you're hunting.
Yeah, you don't know, theremight be one in there in the
woods or it might not be one inthe woods.
So free casting is putting thedogs out in the woods, getting
them on the ground and lettingthem work through the woods and
picking up the scents and prettymuch bumping up the coyote and
(29:24):
stuff like that.
The dogs working the dog isthey're called working hounds,
you know, and that's kind ofwhere that comes from free cats.
They're in there working andgetting that coyote up.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, that was a great explanation of it.
Yeah, like you said, whetheryou're working coyotes or coons
or bear, that's yeah, that'sfree casting.
So with I've seen some youtubevideos and stuff of it.
So I mean, if you guys, whenyou guys are hunting the coyotes
and the dogs are running them,is it sometimes like when you're
hunting a rabbit, where youhear them coming, you're
(29:56):
guesstimating where the coyote'sgoing to come out at and you
shoot on the run?
Do they bay it up?
I mean, how does that normallygo that that comes with.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Uh well, okay, let's start with baying coyotes.
Okay, you know, baying a coyoteis kind of the same as creating
a raccoon or a bear or a cat,and what I mean by cat is bobcat
or mountain lion.
So when a dog bays a coyote,that means the coyote has had
(30:29):
enough and the dogs will justpretty much surround it and I
don't want to say hold it therephysically.
They don't physically hold itthere, but they will keep it
from running anymore, whichgives us a chance to get in and
ethically take that coyote out.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yeah, so like I've seen some videos where the
coyotes they're running it likehow a beagles would run a rabbit
, and then you're just kind ofguessing where it's going to
come out at and then you kind ofshoot it on the run.
Does that happen much?
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Oh, yes, yeah, Okay, yep, it takes I'm sorry, uh, it
takes a very, very special uhhound to bait coyote.
Um, it has to have grit and ithas to.
It has to that hound has tohave a bigger heart than you
could ever think of.
Yeah, um, now, a lot of timesthat coyote is anywhere from 100
(31:31):
yards to 300 to 300 yards infront of, uh, you know, your
hound.
Okay, that's quite a stretch.
So we usually don't, we, weusually hunt the same and the
coyotes usually come out andtake the same trails every time.
(31:53):
They're not even the samecoyote, but they'll run those
same trails every time.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
So like a rabbit.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Another thing a coyote will do is it'll get
behind deer to try to throw thedogs off, so it'll get the deer
running.
The coyote will get behind thedeer and then it'll cut off from
the deer and it'll try to getthe deer to try to throw the
dogs off.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
That's smart, that's very smart yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yes, yes, they are, and the more you run them, the
smarter they get.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah, so then when they're running, so that's when
you guys are trying to get readyfor a shot.
So are you guys using?
What are you guys typicallyshooting?
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Are you guys using like buckshot?
Okay, so here in Pennsylvaniayou're allowed to use up to
number four buckshot.
Okay, so we'll use up to numberfour buckshot.
Okay, um, so we'll use up tonumber four buckshot.
I mean, you can use, uh t shot,you can use bb shot, um, but
most of the guys, uh, we took aliking to them, uh, carlson, uh,
(32:58):
coyote chokes and uh, we'll usesome, you know, heavy bb or
number four buckshot, um, andthen, uh, for open fields, uh,
we usually have, uh, uh, we'lluse ar-15s or 223s or you know
bolt actions or you knowsomething that that sense some
(33:20):
of the, some of the older guys,uh, you know they, they, they
mess with us younger, little bityounger generation.
You know they have nothing butshotgun, they're shotgunners and
that's all they believe in.
And you know what?
I can't say nothing.
I mean, there's been timeswhere if I would have had a
shotgun I would have got thatcoyote.
But you know, growing up I waskind of accustomed to that
(33:45):
already growing up.
In eastern North Carolinayou're allowed to use buckshot
down there for deer hunting andyou can use whatever buckshot
you want.
You know number one, number two, double lock, triple lock.
You know it don't matter, buthere in Pennsylvania you're not
allowed to use buckshot to huntdeer with.
Here in Pennsylvania you're notallowed to use buckshot to hunt
(34:09):
deer with.
So they only allow you to go upto number four size buckshot
for coyote hunting, which ismore than enough to knock down a
coyote.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Yeah, and then.
So that's how the coyote.
Okay, so that's interesting,that's how the hunt goes.
I was wondering that, if it was, it's almost similar to.
Well, I've heard to a rabbithunt.
I've heard one guy describe itas he said think to a rabbit
hunt.
I've heard one guy describe itas think of your worst day
rabbit hunting.
The rabbits are just runningand firing going.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
That's typically a coyote hunt Compared to a rabbit
hunt, you know how usually yourdogs will swing that rabbit and
bring it back around to you.
The difference is coyote willwill straight line, um, and
that's kind of how you know.
We use, uh, varmint um trackers.
(34:55):
Uh, we have, you know, varminttrackers and handhelds and um,
usually you know you can watchon there and you can tell what
they're on.
You know, sometimes when we geton the cat, when that cat trees
, you know we don't have treeand walkers so our dogs don't
stay on the tree so that catwill tree and the dogs will work
(35:18):
a circle and that cat will comeback down and they'll pick it
back up and they'll run it somemore and then that cat will tree
and you can see on yourhandheld, on the Garmin.
You know what it's doing, whatyour dog is doing, how they're
acting, and you'll know Now ifyou see on there them dogs are
straight lining and they're justa booking in a straight line.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
You've got a coyote up here you're rolling, Okay,
yeah.
Yeah, I know I've got the Gargarment as well, and boy, I
wouldn't let my dogs go withoutit.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
No, I wouldn't either .
You know, as far as safety forthe dogs and being able to
control the dogs, yes, you know,we still have.
I would say here innorthwestern Pennsylvania we
have 98% of people that say go,you know you're not allowed to
deer hunt, you're not allowed tobear, know you're not allowed
(36:09):
to deer hunt, you ain't allowedto bear hunt, you ain't allowed
to do nothing.
But if you want to run yourdogs on my property and shoot
coyotes, and then you know wegot that other percent that are
farmers and they say I don'twant the coyote shot, I want
them to kill the deer becausethe deer are eating all my crops
.
Yeah, but it makes it nice.
So you know, cause, when I back, when we were talking about a
puppy, and how does it startwith a puppy, Well, you know,
(36:31):
you tone, you, you tone, trainthat puppy, you horn, train that
puppy.
So when that dog, when thatpuppy becomes a dog and a hound,
uh, that's that's running andworking for you.
Now, if he's headed towardsproperty, that property that you
know that we don't know how tobe on, you know you can push a
button on that handheld andit'll beep, that collar will
(36:53):
beep, and he or she the houndknows.
All right, I'm stopping, I'mturning around and I'm going
right back on my tracks and myhandler will be right there
waiting on me.
Things have calmed down a lotaround here since folks know
that we can control our dogs.
We can control a lot of times.
(37:16):
We can control where they goand where they don't.
I don't know about anybodyelse's, but my hounds can't read
posted signs.
I don't know about anybodyelse's, but my homes can't read
postage signs and there's timesthat they might get in a little
block or they might get on ablock or a piece of property
that they shouldn't be on and wecan't get them off.
(37:39):
They're just that determinedthey want to do such a good job
and they're that determinedthey're going to get that.
They're hunting, they're doingwhat they're supposed to do such
a good job and they're thatdetermined they're going to get
that.
They're hunting, they're doingwhat they're supposed to do.
And what will happen is we'llgo to that homeowner.
We'll go and I'll knock on thedoor and tell them who I am.
Hey, I'm John Ferringer.
I'm from this area here.
(38:00):
We were running three milesfrom here and this coyote just
straight lined and the dogs arechasing and they're in the back
of the woods here.
Usually we won't shoot thecoyote, we'll just go in and can
we please just get our dogs?
A lot of times you'll findthey'll tell you no, shoot that
thing.
I got chickens, they've beenkilling my chickens or something
(38:23):
like that.
But then you got people say,okay, that's fine, know, don't
shoot that coyote, but you'remore than welcome.
You know, walk down to thebackyard, into the woods and get
your dogs.
And you know, we understand,and you know.
And then you got about one ortwo percent that are just irate.
No matter what you do, you canmake them happy and, uh, you
know, you end up got a call, youknow the wildlife officer, and
(38:47):
they come out and they make thehomeowner, you know, or the
landowner.
They make them.
Let us go in and get her housebecause by law you know they
have to.
Let us get them, you know yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:58):
Yeah, john, you were saying something earlier about
the Krogan Walker and we talkedabout that a bit last night.
Could you kind of tell aboutthat dog that you have there,
because I know it's kind ofunique yes, uh.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
So, um, the crogan bloodline, uh, walker, um, a
fella named bill crogan from outwest, um, he started that
bloodline and they were bredespecially for running just
coyote.
And in the beginning I was like, yeah, come on now.
(39:34):
I've seen every dog shine andI've seen every dog have bad
days and there's times they jumpstuff and run it when they're
not supposed to be.
But I will say that Mr BillKrogan unfortunately he's not
with us anymore, he's passed buthe is one fine houndstooth.
(39:56):
He knew what he was doing, hedeveloped me, he made that breed
of dog.
And my fancy girl, you knowshe's K's croaking and she will
not chase nothing but a coyote.
Um, you can put, you can put 10bobcat right in front of her,
you can put 10 cats in front ofher, you can put a whole herd of
(40:17):
deer, but you, she will notchase nothing but a coyote.
And that's how.
Another reason uh, you know, ifwe somebody's jumping around
and they say, no, we don't knowif it's a cat or we don't know
if it's a coyote, we're not sure, and it's acting like this, but
we don't know.
No, one's seen it yet They'llget on the radio and tell me hey
(40:40):
, put Fancy in.
We need to know if this is acoyote or not and I'll put her
in If she comes back to me.
It ain't a coyote If she goesin and she starts hammering.
Yeah, if she goes in and startshammering them and starts
rolling them, it's a coyote.
And in the beginning I neverreally talked much about it.
(41:01):
When I first got her I neverreally.
You know, I wasn't a believer.
I'm going to be honest with you.
I was not a believer becauseI've seen some of the best, most
expensive dogs.
You know that dog will not,that dog will not chase a deer
and I've seen that dog chase adeer.
So I didn't.
I didn't talk much about itwhen I first got her.
(41:21):
But about six months in withFancy, she made me a believer.
She will not chase nothing.
She will not hunt or run, chasenothing but a coyote.
I'll tell you, mr Bill Kroganbuddy, he knew what he was doing
, he was a true houndstooth andI'm just very fortunate to have
(41:44):
her.
Wow.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Yeah, it's really cool hearing about a unique
breed or bloodline within youknow the hound world.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
The July walkers.
You know they're just a runningwalker, they're like your tree
and walkers, but they don'treally stick to a tree and
they're a little faster.
You know they're a little moreslinky and a little more faster.
Um, and uh, you know just, uh,just a part of a part of a breed
(42:18):
that that somebody came up with.
And uh, you know, just like, uh, I mean, like I said before,
when you're going back to thepuppies, you know, just like I
mean, like I said before, whenyou're going back to the puppies
, you know you take your bestmale and your best female and
you just hope they throw somegood puppies and carry them
straight.
And but those, I will say, youknow, my fancy girl.
(42:41):
She is, she is the dog, she ismy pride, they're all my pride,
but she shines, she shines and.
I'm not saying one day that shemight not chase a cat or, you
know, get on something she ain'tsupposed to, because every
they're just like humans.
(43:02):
You know we have good days andbad days.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Sure, yeah, lee yeah, joe, and I can't thank you
enough for coming on the podcasthere and giving us an inside
look at this world of coyotehounds and, you know, I think
probably some people havelearned some things today and
just get a little more of anunderstanding about what they
(43:25):
might see or hear about.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
I really appreciate you havingme on here.
I certainly don't knoweverything about the hunting
world and I learn every day.
You know something different.
You know that's the great thingabout being a houndsman, you
know.
You got that opportunity to tosee different things and see how
(43:51):
your dogs react and your houndshow they, how they do in
different situations as far asweather and terrain and, um, you
know, uh, it just, I guess itall just boils down to the love
of a hound.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
You know, oh, absolutely, and I find that you
know every the love of a hound,oh, absolutely, and I find that
every time you take the houndsout, they'll teach you something
new, whether you're payingattention or not.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
Yeah, I just, I really can't.
I have no words how to explain.
I really just don't know how toexplain it without somebody
just experiencing it.
You know you like sushi or youdon't like sushi.
(44:36):
You ain't going to get used toeating it, you know.
So you either like it andaccept the responsibility of
being a houndsman a hundredpercent and, uh, you enjoy it as
a way of life.
Um, it's not just a hobby.
You know that you can.
You know, uh, pick up and youknow just, you know, a couple
(44:59):
months down the road, so I don'twant to do this, no more.
You need to make sure that youcan accept the responsibility of
being a houndsman and takingcare of them hounds.
Before you decide to get hounds,I always tell I've had a couple
guys, I'm going to go onFacebook and I'm going to get me
some hounds and I'm going to dothis.
(45:21):
I tell them hey, we got plentyof hounds.
You know the group, the group Ihunt with, is a fine group of
guys and women.
I mean they.
They will let you ride withthem every single time and not
even ask for a penny for gas,and even share their lunch with
you.
You know what I mean.
Fine group, I tell you, hey,come hunt with us.
(45:46):
Make sure this is what youreally want to do before you go
getting hounds, because that's awhole different responsibility.
I would suggest going by you anice auto shotgun and get you a
good choke and get a patternwith a good buckshot or BB.
I would suggest starting thereand maybe get you a handheld or
get you a handheld radio that wecommunicate on.
(46:07):
Make sure this is what youreally want, because when you to
me as a houndsman, when I pickup a puppy or even a
well-seasoned train, that's awhole different level of
responsibility and you've got tomake sure that it's not just
something you're going to pickup, even a well-seasoned train.
That's a whole different levelof responsibility and you've got
(46:28):
to make sure that it's not justsomething you're going to pick
up and throw down in a couplemonths.
It ain't fair to the hound, itain't fair to us houndsmen to
see that.
So I will say if you want agood time and see what it's all
about, you're more than welcometo come over here to
northwestern Pennsylvania andwe'll do the best we can to give
(46:51):
you a good experience.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
That's great.
Thanks, john.
Yeah, I mean just echoing onwhat you're saying.
There being a houndsman it's alifestyle.
I mean some deer hunters try tosay it is too, and it is to an
extent.
But the hounds it's lifestylein the fact that it's 365 days a
year.
It's not like you're going outand getting the dust off the old
duck blind or you know, oilingup your tree stand to take it in
(47:17):
the fall, right, it's not likethat.
You don't just put it away andI'll see you in a few months or,
you know, six months orwhatever it's.
It's every day absolutely now.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
I'm gonna tell you.
You know, if I drop and crackthe stock on my you know my
browning you know I'm gonna beupset.
I'm not even shedding tears,I'm not gonna lie to you.
But I tell you what?
If I lose a hound?
I'm going to be heartbroken.
Yeah, you know I can replacethat shotgun.
That hound is like my kid.
(47:48):
You know, each hound I have isnot replaceable.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
Yeah, now it's something great that I hope a
lot of hunters can get anexperience.
Like I said, I've brought a lotof people with me hound hunting
and most all of them willprobably never get their own
just because of that lifestyle.
But I'll tell you anytime I'moffering to bring them along.
They're right there ready to go.
So that's all you can ask thatworks for me yeah, absolutely,
(48:17):
yep, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
You know, and uh, I'm a firm believer of getting the
younger generation in.
You know, I couldn't imagine,you know, growing up I couldn't
imagine a Saturday morning notsitting shotgun, you know, with
my grandpa or, you know, justfriends.
(48:41):
I couldn't imagine a Saturdaymorning morning not, you know,
putting a tailgate down and openthat dog box up.
I just um, you know, and Ithink, uh, it is a slowly.
I think hunting in general isslowly declining, you know,
because we're not, we're notgetting that younger generation
out.
You know, take the time.
You know, um.
(49:01):
You know, um.
You know, get that that little,that little fellow or that
little girl out there and and uh, you know, you know, show them
the ropes and teach them.
Uh, you know, ethics andresponsibility.
You know, uh, gunresponsibility and uh, just
outdoor.
You know, uh, in general, to bea good person.
(49:22):
You know, um, there ain't verymany hounds that I've never not
trusted.
You know, uh and uh, you know,I think that's a, it's a slowly
dying breed.
You know, we've got to getthese younger folks out here.
And um, you know, and it mightnot be, it might not be coyote
(49:43):
hunting with hounds and it mightnot be raccoon hunting or bear
hunting or deer hunting.
You know what I mean.
You know, just to get them outin the outdoors though, to have
a voice, you know, to be able toshare their opinion and find
something that they can findpeace.
You know that's another thingthat I'm a firm believer.
You know it's not all aboutshooting a coyote.
That's another thing that I'm afirm believer in.
(50:03):
It's not all about shooting acoyote, it's not all about
shooting a monster buck or astate record bear.
That's what I've taught mylittle boy and girl.
They love to hunt.
I absolutely die hard.
My boy is seven, my daughter isfive, my wife is an avid white
(50:27):
tail hunter, so I have a littlebit of help there, thank god.
You know, like I said, she's atrooper.
Uh, you know, I don't care whatit is, I don't.
You know, they might, you know,get older and say you know that
I really don't want to.
I don't really want to whitetail hunt.
You know, I just, I just wantto, maybe bear hunt.
There's something about it, youknow, and I'm going to do
everything I can do to make surethat they have the tools and
(50:50):
the knowledge maybe to besuccessful, to even you know to
take that responsibility on andand achieve it.
Um, I just you know the samewith fishing, you know'm not a
fisherman.
I'll tell you right now I amnot a sport fisherman.
I'm not.
(51:11):
I'm going to tell you what I gofishing to drink a beer, yeah.
I like to catch.
I don't like to fish, yeah,right, right, uh, you know, and
that ain't very often, but uh,term of word jared to express I
am not a fisherman, you know.
Yeah, uh, which is crazy.
You know, growing up in easternnorth carolina, you know you
(51:33):
got the rivers and the ocean andstuff and I enjoy saltwater
fishing a little bit.
I mean I can do it.
Uh, it helps pass time to getdeer or, you know, get the
hunting season yeah, yeah,that's what it's a yeah, it's a
bridge absolutely you know.
But back to, you know, gettingthese youngsters out here, you
know getting this youngergeneration and you know, uh, and
(51:55):
some may do it until they're 18or 15 or 16, or you know some
may do it, just because you knowdad likes to do it.
So I'm gonna hang out with dadand mom and, um, you know, and
that's okay, but you've, you'vegiven them a tool, at least you
know, to have that option ifthey wanted to pursue it.
Speaker 1 (52:14):
Um, it's uh, yep, any any kind of hunting is.
You know someone goes out anddoes it's.
It's someone else on our, onour side and on our team when it
comes to, uh, you know, votingand and talking about common
sense, sometimes too, to peoplethat uh are against it but have
no idea about it yeah,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
You know, and you I think another big part of you
know teaching the youngergeneration also, to teach them
to have respect for the onesthat don't have no interest in
it.
You know the ones that thatdon't uh, hunt or fish or you
know, um, you know, have respectfor them too.
You know, respect their, theirthoughts and their values,
(52:57):
because it's worth something.
Um, I don't know.
I guess I try to be as humbleas I can be and I think you know
, if you do good, good will cometo you, and you know that's
just the way I was raised.
I guess you know to be a goodperson and there's times where
(53:22):
you can't be a good person, butyou know, I guess you know I
grew up and it might offend somepeople, but I apologize if it
does.
You know God, guns and familyis the way I was raised.
(53:43):
I grew up in a Southern Baptistchurch and there's a little bit
about myself there.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
Yeah, no, that's great.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
If you do good, it's better for the whole outcome.
You do good and acceptresponsibility and do what you
got to do.
You do get rewarded from that.
It does come back around theback end, you know um I couldn't
, I couldn't agree more with allthat.
Speaker 1 (54:09):
Uh, john, you've been , you've been really great to
talk to and uh, I hope to haveyou back on again because you're
you're great to have aconversation with about all this
and uh, it's been a lot of fun.
So, uh, thanks for, uh, yeah,thanks so much for telling us
about the coyote hunting and uh,I think, uh, yeah, hopefully
definitely be hearing from youagain later this winter yeah,
(54:30):
yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (54:32):
Um, I keep a journal every year.
Um, every day I go out, youknow we go out, you know, um,
that night I get back and geteverything done and hounds put
up and taken care of and dinnerand family time a little bit.
I always write in the journal.
If you're willing to have me, Iwould love to come back on and
(54:55):
maybe give an update on how ourseason's going.
Yeah, that'd be great.
Any changes or anything that'shappened.
That would be great.
I would love to share the storywith as many that would like to
listen.
Speaker 1 (55:09):
Well, I'll tell you we'd like to hear it.
I know I sure would.
Speaker 2 (55:12):
Definitely can't wait .
We're just getting started inour coyote season here in PA and
it's turning out pretty good.
Like I said, we've got sixinches of snow tonight.
It's supposed to cut off herepretty soon.
About midnight, 1 o'clock, thecoyote is going to be up and
(55:33):
moving.
We'll be cutting tracks in themorning and turning the dogs out
, dropping the tailgate.
Speaker 1 (55:41):
Sounds like a good Saturday morning.
Well, John, I wish you guys allthe best this season.
We'll be talking again to seehow it went.
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