August 25, 2025 • 28 mins
Dr. Eddie Capparucci interviews Drew Boa about his new book, Outgrow Porn: Find Lasting Freedom Without Fighting an Exhausting Battle—A Man's Guide to Healing. You'll learn the importance of understanding sexual fantasies, processing emotions, "surfing" sexual urges, and healing the inner child.
Outgrow Porn is available now!
- Buy the book directly from Drew at outgrowporn.com
- Buy the book on Amazon with Drew's affiliate link at amzn.to/4lPkpEV
- Buy the Outgrow Porn Workbook at outgrowpornworkbook.com
Free resources for you:
- Download the first chapter PDF at drewboa.com/outgrow-porn-chapter-1
- Get the online companion course at drewboa.com/outgrowporn
- Download and share Outgrow Porn social media images here.
Let's celebrate and spread the word!
Drew Boa is the founder and CEO of Husband Material Ministries, where he helps men outgrow porn. He is the author of Outgrow Porn and Redeemed Sexuality—and the host of the Husband Material podcast and YouTube channel. Drew is passionate about changing brains, healing hearts, and saving relationships affected by porn. In 2015, Drew received his MA in Christian Formation & Ministry from Wheaton College Graduate School. Since then, he has completed training as a Pastoral Sex Addiction Professional (PSAP), Certified Brainspotting Practitioner (BSP), Unwanted Guide, and Inner Child Recovery Specialist. Drew offers support and guidance to outgrow porn through coaching, leading groups, hosting retreats, and speaking. Drew enjoys living in Colorado and going on adventures with his wife and kids. Connect with Drew at drewboa.com
Dr. Eddie Capparucci is a licensed professional counselor certified in treating Problematic Sexual Behaviors. He is the creator of the Inner Child Model™ for treating Addictive Behaviors, a unique approach that focuses on identifying unresolved childhood pain points and teaching individuals how to process emotional distress in healthy ways. He is the author of six books, including Going Deeper: How the Inner Child Impacts Your Sexual Addiction and Why Men Struggle to Love: Overcoming Relational Blind Spots. His latest book is Going Deeper for Betrayed Partners: Discovering Healing Through Your Inner Child.
Take the Husband Material Journey...
- Step 1: Listen to this podcast or watch on YouTube
- Step 2: Join the private Husband Material Community
- Step 3: Take the free mini-course: How To Outgrow Porn
- Step 4: Try the all-in-one program: Husband Material Academy
Thanks for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thank you forlistening to the first episode
(00:21):
of Husband Material, wheresomeone else interviewed me.
Dr Eddie Caparucci, creator ofthe Inner Child Model and author
of Going Deeper, interviewed meabout my new book, outgrow Porn
, which you can get now atoutgrowporncom.
Enjoy the episode.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I am so excited to be here today with one of my best
friends and my colleague, drewBoa.
My best friends and mycolleague Drew Boa Drew has
given me the opportunity tointerview him about his new book
Outgrown Porn right.
Outgrown Porn Finding LastingFreedom Without Fighting an
(01:00):
Exhausting Battle.
You know, drew, it is anexhausting battle for so many
people who try to fightpornography.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yeah, it's so frustrating and exhausting
because the more you resistsexual thoughts and feelings,
the stronger they get.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
It may become overwhelming, and especially
when you can't, you know, getthem under control, which is
really part of the struggle atthe beginning for many of it.
But I want to start out.
I want to ask you the mostbasic question what led you to
write a book?
Speaker 1 (01:34):
It came from my own story of finding now 10 years of
freedom from internet porn andhelping other guys finding out
what works, what resonates,reading so many books like your
book and going through trainingsand putting it all together in
something that would be morepractical and relatable for
(01:55):
people while still being reallydeep and, I think, powerful too.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Yeah, and it is powerful.
It's a very powerful book.
You did a great job because,let's face it, there are a lot
of books out there on the market.
I put way too many out theremyself.
How do you think this book thatyou have written, how is it
different from others that areout there?
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Well, it's the exact opposite of a lot of books that
are based on purity culture, so,for example, the classic
evangelical sexual recoveryresource of Every Man's Battle.
It's also, I think, differentthan some of the more clinical
books Unwanted by Jay Stringerreally going into sexual
(02:45):
fantasies.
Another big influence was theinner child model, because the
book's all about healing the boyto free the man.
And then another big one for mewas Internal Family Systems,
ifs.
But there are no IFS books thatreally talk about sexual parts.
Like IFS is so good, but theyhaven't really applied it to
fantasies yet or they haven'treally applied it to porn.
(03:07):
So I'm trying to bring thosethings together.
And then the other thing is youencouraged me about two years
ago to write a book with toolsLike what can you actually do?
Right, because it's not justabout the problem.
We want to give peopleresources to actually solve the
problem.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, I mean, you remember the library I had
behind me, you know, hundredsand hundreds of books before we
moved.
I was so frustrated, so oftenyou read this book and you're
going through and you're reading, reading.
It's the problem, the problem,the problem, the problem, and
it's like, okay, well, hopefullyyou understand about the depth
of this problem and there's nosolutions.
(03:44):
And it drives me crazy.
And that's what I love aboutyour book it's just loaded with
the roadmap.
It has that roadmap, that guideto lead people to that kind of
freedom.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
You've been saying for a long time that the road to
recovery goes through yourchildhood, and I'm trying to
show what that road looks like.
And another big thing isstories of guys who are on this
journey who have given mepermission to share.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah, there's a lot of good ones that are in there.
So you believe that by someoneunderstanding what their sexual
fantasies are, that can be a keyto overcoming pornography?
Can you explain to our viewershow did that help, if I know
what my fantasies are?
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, my sexual fetish was always focused on
girls and women with braces, sothat would be the type of image
or video that I would search outon the internet to sexually
stimulate myself, and I alwaysthought that was weird and
strange, and yet alsofascinating and absolutely
(04:49):
irresistible.
For some reason, I never reallyunderstood why it had this
magnetic power over me, and whenI started to finally see what
was underneath that wow, what adifference.
I found that there was thismiddle school Drew who needed my
help, and that just changedeverything for me, like it was
(05:12):
no longer about fighting abattle against that part of me,
it was about befriending thatpart of me.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Understanding it.
Okay, yeah, and then you havethat understanding of what drove
you toward this interest, thisfascination in the sexual realm,
which, again, that's why youknow no, I'm the big, why, guy?
Why do I think, feel and actthe way I do?
(05:37):
And that takes you down thatpathway.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
For me it felt like that moment in the Wizard of Oz,
where Oz the great and powerfullooks like this big, scary
monster and then they pull backthe curtain and they see there's
this little old man in there,and so I felt like behind the
curtain of this porn that feltso powerful, there was this
little boy in there it takesaway a lot of the power that the
(06:09):
fantasy had before the urgeright, right, and that was
absolutely essential because in2014, after a whole year of
freedom from porn, I felt like Iwas back at the beginning, and
so it seemed like, no matter howmuch sobriety I get, it still
has power over me, and the goalof this book is not necessarily
(06:33):
to guarantee that you'll besober forever, but that it will
lose its power, that it willfeel less magical, more
manageable yes, and that's whatthe whole thing is.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
It's taking it.
You know, I have people say tome constantly like I just want
to be cured of this, and it'slike, well, I'm sorry, you're
talking to the wrong person andI'm not sure anyone that you
talk to is going to cure you.
We don't get cured.
What we do is we learn tomanage it.
But you can manage it veryeffectively and you can manage
(07:05):
it for the rest of your life,especially if you allow the
power that it has to dissipate.
And that's the thing I reallylove about your book.
It really kind of shows peoplehow to go about doing that.
So you put something else inthere that I was so excited to
see and that you have an entirechapter devoted to emotional
(07:29):
regulation.
And you know, I believeemotional regulation is recovery
.
That's recovery.
But why do you think this issuch an important topic that you
put a whole chapter in there?
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Because, as you see on the cover of the book, porn
is a pacifier.
In other words, it's a way ofsoothing pain.
Yes, it is a problem and alsoit's the solution that we found
when we were kids to the otherproblems we were facing in our
lives.
I find that whatever type ofporn has power, and whenever I
(08:07):
feel triggered or tempted towatch porn, there's some kind of
unprocessed pain, there's someunprocessed emotion underneath
it that gets sexualized.
So if we can process thosedeeper emotions, we desexualize
those feelings, those deeperemotions.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
we desexualize those feelings Exactly.
But you have to understand whatare those issues, what are the
pain points that again aresubconscious, that lead us to
what?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
And as men, we're often not taught to figure out
how we feel or talk about how wefeel, much less actually feel
things.
To be a man is to toughen up,not necessarily to feel your
emotions.
So it's exactly right thatemotional regulation is recovery
(08:57):
, and I wanted to take a lot ofthe science of polyvagal theory
and neuroplasticity and make iteasier for people to understand.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
And you were very successful in doing that,
because I've seen it many timeswhere it's explained polyvagal
and it's over a lot of people'sheads.
It may not go over your head,may not go over my head, but for
many other readers it is whatthey do.
They tune it out, and theproblem is that this is such a
(09:29):
critical subject.
It cannot be afforded to betuned out.
So I really applaud you forthat you put in there and I
found it very interesting and Inever really gave it much
thought, and that was this ideaof the difference between
arousal and being triggered, andbecause I always thought, well,
(09:51):
you're aroused to be triggered.
You know why is it importantfor people to distinguish
between the two of them?
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Arousal is your body's natural reaction to
stimuli.
So if I see an attractiveperson walking down the street,
that might be arousing, it mightbe exciting or interesting, and
then I can move on.
If that feels not justattractive but obsessive and
(10:20):
irresistible and I find myselfgoing back to that person hours
later or even days later, okay,there's something that got
triggered that isdisproportionate to this
everyday event.
So that can happen sexually,that can happen emotionally.
I'm talking with my wife andall of a sudden I shut down and
I go completely numb.
(10:41):
That's more than just a normalemotional reaction.
That's deeper.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, and it goes back to again our autonomic
nervous system.
You know, the sympathetic partof that has kicked in, Right.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
So when we get charged up, powered up
emotionally or sexually, we'rebeing aroused, and when that
feels overwhelming or it justcauses us to completely
dissociate, probably beingtriggered and in need of more
processing and relationalsupport.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
What should men do, if anything, about their arousal
?
Speaker 1 (11:22):
That's a great question.
It reminds me of an episode wedid on Husband Material last
year called it's good to bearoused with sam joelman.
You know it's, it's okay.
Like, arousal is a gift of god.
We can welcome it, we canunderstand it, ask the why
questions and we can appreciateit and say thank you for being
(11:45):
here and also manage it as we'vetalked about.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Because what's again, if I can correct me, being
aroused is very different thanthe being triggered.
Okay, because the trigger?
Again, there's some sort ofunderlining emotional driver
that is dysfunctional in a way.
(12:10):
Yeah, again, being aroused isjust part of our nature and the
way god designed us yeah, that'sreally well said.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Being triggered is often a trauma reaction right,
exactly, it is a trauma reactionyeah.
So if I find myself triggered,that means there's some kind of
threat, there's some kind offear, and lie under the surface
here that I need to become awareof.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
The thing that's just so confusing or so frustrating
is it doesn't feel like a threat.
At times when we're triggeredlike that, that's the last thing
it really feels like, butthat's because we don't really
understand the depth of what'sdriving that trigger.
(12:58):
Amen, yeah, you also wrotesomething, and it was stop
competing against your sexuality, because you're never going to
win, and instead collaboratewith your sexuality and you're
going to get to where you wantto go.
(13:18):
Now, I think you touched uponthis a little bit earlier when
we were talking, but what didyou mean by this?
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Well, first of all, I've experienced that I mean God
created our sexuality to be sopowerful.
It's like the ocean it'sbeautiful, it's awe-inspiring
and it can destroy you, you know.
Isn't that true of sex andsexuality?
Very, very much so.
And it can be fun and enjoyable, Beautiful, beautiful, right,
(13:54):
without enough safety orboundaries, like, yeah, it's
dangerous too.
So what do we do with the ocean?
We have to learn to work withit, and I tell the story about
taking my first surfing lessonand swimming against the waves
and getting nowhere.
That was my first two years oftrying to get free from porn,
(14:17):
just swimming against the wavesand getting pummeled, just
getting hit every time andmaking no progress.
So as we learn to ask thesedeeper questions of, okay,
what's underneath the surface ofmy sexual thoughts and feelings
, it's like we get under thewaves and we can move with them,
we can move through them.
There's this technique calledurge surfing, and I have my own
version of it, where you allowthe waves of sexual energy to
(14:41):
come and then you allow them topass.
This is a skill of breathing,observation and attunement BOA.
That is one of the tools thatcan really help guys when
they're triggered.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
You know, you bring up the idea of being.
You need to be able to drill,to go deeper, okay, to
understand what's under thesurface.
Why do you think there's somany men who are, and even women
too, women who struggle withporn and love addiction, that
they're hesitant to do that?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Well, one of the big reasons is that a lot of us grew
up in purity culture, and eventhose of us who didn't grow up
in purity culture often stillhad a very anti-sexual
upbringing, where this issomething we don't talk about.
This is something you have tokeep a secret.
So the idea of you know,figuring out what's that
(15:35):
specific sexual fantasy allabout, or why are we talking
about this particular type ofporn it's like that feels like
it goes against everything we'vebeen taught yeah, it's like a
taboo subject for people withthat.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
You're a big believer in the inner child.
You and I.
We have a very common bond here.
What is it about thistherapeutic concept that got you
interested?
Speaker 1 (16:04):
When I started to get to know my 13-year-old self and
then my even younger selves,the whole orphanage of inner
children within me, I felt likeJesus loved me there and his
love touched places that it hadnever touched before.
(16:25):
And so many guys say well, Iknow intellectually that God
loves me, but I don't feel itemotionally.
And I believe another way ofsaying that is there are parts
of me that don't feel the loveof God at all and it's those
inner children, it's thoselittle boys within us that need
to be rescued.
That inner child conceptresonates with me so much
(16:48):
because I've learned that when Iget triggered it's not mature,
adult, logical Drew, it's theboy.
I know a lot of people might bethinking well, that sounds kind
of like new age or that soundskind of hokey.
Well, scientifically we'retalking about implicit memory,
body memory.
Scientifically we're talkingabout implicit memory, body
(17:11):
memory.
And then biblically, I thinkabout Psalm 131,.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
I have stilled and quieted my soul within me, like
a weaned child with its mother.
Yeah, you know, and there'salso the aspect of it and what I
tried to communicate to people.
The inner child is a metaphor,yes, or the pain that we dealt
with as a child, adolescent andteen that has never been
resolved, that continues tostill haunt you today,
(17:40):
subconsciously.
Okay, now we've taken away allof the idea of there is like
little kid running around inside.
No, no, oh, I'm schizophrenic noit is a metaphor to help you
understand that your path isimpeding and it is hurting some
(18:04):
of the way you think, act andfeel in your world today,
especially when it comes torelating to your spouse or
partner.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
True, and it's a helpful metaphor.
If the inner child metaphordoesn't resonate, that's okay.
You and I have found that thishas unlocked amazing healing for
a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Yeah, what are the steps?
If people are listening todayand they're like, oh wow, you
know what?
That sounds pretty interestingand I think I do have some
wounds from the path.
How does somebody go aboutdiscovering their inner child?
Speaker 1 (18:40):
You can start by downloading a free PDF of
chapter one of the book Heal theBoy to Free the man, and at the
end of that chapter I give youa couple of exercises to be able
to connect with your innerchild, and one of them, called
non-dominant handwriting, isreally easy to use on your own.
It's safe, and so, even withouta therapist or counselor, you
(19:03):
can get started and try that out.
Try that out.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
I mean, it probably is better to, at some point, to
turn to someone who's beentrained in this field that can
kind of guide you along.
Just for the fact that thereare so many, you're going to hit
a lot of different walls.
Yes, like, for example, like,oh, I don't want to, you know,
give myself the perception thatmy parents were bad or evil.
(19:27):
And again, that's not what wedo.
We don't blame anyone, but wedo hold people accountable for
actions.
You know, another aspect couldbe the idea of not being able to
connect the dots all the time.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
so, therefore, to have that other perspective to
help you along the way, yeah,definitely, and if you read the
book you will figure out whereyour walls and barriers are that
you can take into therapy andcounseling Excellent.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
You also write about.
The idea of having someone telltheir story is something that
can be extremely powerful.
People don't want to tell theirstory.
They don't even want to thinkabout their story.
So why is that the case?
What happens when we can getpeople to open up and to share?
(20:21):
We're not talking about gettingup on your rooftop and shouting
it to the world.
I'm talking about, even if it'sjust one person.
What's the benefit of doingthat?
Speaker 1 (20:32):
When you get into the details of exactly what you've
struggled with and what'shappened to you and what you're
going through now, the shame isshattered, the silence is broken
and evil begins to lose itsgrip and intimacy.
(20:54):
What we truly need starts togrow.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Talk about the idea of really what's sitting behind
the surface is intimacy, theneed for intimacy.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Yeah, we were created for connection, for close
relationships, for intimacy.
Yet many of us grew up with adisconnected childhood, even if
your parents loved you, even ifyou had so many privileges and
great things going on, even ifyou had so many privileges and
great things going on, whateverlevel of relationship we had we
(21:33):
thought was normal, even if wewere alone, even if we were
misunderstood or abused orabandoned.
(21:54):
Whatever we grow up with, wejust think it's normal.
But our bodies still crave thatconnection we were created for,
and porn provides a symbolicsexual version of it.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Many of us don't really know what emotional
intimacy is because we've neverexperienced it, and so we settle
for a physical, sexualizedversion of it and and that's why
, again, you know, after awhile's partner being in the
relationship for a while,they're like wait, the only time
you want to come near me andtouch me is when you want to be
(22:20):
sexual.
Other than that, if not, youwant to play with your little
marvel characters over here.
Whatever, you know, not me, andand and they, they start to
feel used.
But again, they don'tunderstand the dynamic and we're
not saying it's correct andwe're not saying it should be
tolerated, but the dynamic ishe's thinking oh, we're
(22:43):
connecting, I'm bonding with you, isn't this great?
Well, it's great, but I needmore.
And we're like I don't knowwhat that more is.
I don't know how to give it toyou.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
And that is why men struggle to love.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
So let me ask you this what is your favorite thing
about freedom from pornography?
Speaker 1 (23:29):
My favorite thing about freedom from pornography.
My favorite thing about freedomfrom pornography is that I now
have a relationship with littleDrew and with Jesus.
So this is what I call thehealing triangle my adult self,
my inner child and Jesus.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
That is the strongest triangle in my life.
Powerful.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Very, very powerful.
Nothing is going to break themback, and sometimes I experience
Jesus through other people,through the men in my group or
through a friend.
So it's not saying that I don'tneed community.
It's saying that oftentimesJesus speaks and works through
others.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
What you're talking about here.
This is your core, yes, this isyour core, but the community
has to surround it, becausecommunity is also emotional
intimacy.
Yeah, exactly, and so therefore, again, the balance.
We've always been out ofbalance.
But what you brought up earlier, well, we didn't know that.
(24:31):
I don't know what I don't know.
All I know is this is my life,this is how I live, and so be it
.
But now realizing, ooh, thatbalance needs to be leveled.
You have a really fascinatingparallel in the book the monster
(24:53):
and the mouse.
Tell people, take a few minutesand talk about that.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
At the end of the book.
I wanted to give you somethingthat would allow you to really
feel the truth of the book, notjust read about it, but to have
a different way to experience it.
So it's fictional, it's atotally different genre.
The idea is there's a man wholives in a house with a monster
(25:21):
in the basement and he's alwaysfighting against the monster.
I won't give away the secretplot twist in the parable, and
so when you, when you read theparable, it's a way of engaging
your right brain you know wehave left brain logic and right
brain emotion, and so what's theright brain?
Speaker 2 (25:44):
What do you mean?
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Right brain in the wrong brain.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah, I mean you want to talk about.
The issue that we struggle withis the right hemisphere of our
brain, you know, does notfunction as well as the left
side does, and that drew pointedout.
The right side is thatemotional aspect, and that's why
I love the fact you putsomething in there, because it
(26:09):
kind of gives them theopportunity to have to use the
right brain to really kind offeel, not think, feel.
You know what you were writingabout there.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
So my last question what's the topic of your next
book?
Speaker 1 (26:29):
I still keep thinking about that.
This has been so grueling anddifficult to create over the
last four years that I am not ina rush to do another book.
The next book that is actuallycoming out with this one is the
Alcroporn Workbook.
Very good, so that you can gothrough this material and really
(26:53):
process it not just readthrough it and get the
information, but start to do thework of transformation.
And it's going to be great forgroups as well.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
I was fortunate that I had the opportunity to be able
to read this in its manuscriptform.
I have to tell you, right as Isaid before, there are many
books that are out there.
There are many books on adifferent topic.
This is an outstanding bookbecause, again, while it does
(27:25):
get into some of the issues,it's more about the solution.
It is about that idea offreedom.
It's about the fact that thesoothing techniques that you've
used over the years we don'tneed to use them anymore.
We don't need it.
There's other soothingtechniques that are so much more
(27:47):
powerful yes, so much morepowerful.
And Drew captures it.
He captured it all in here.
I've read it twice.
I love the book.
(28:08):
Yes, going to look forward towhat the future brings, with
Drew Boa as he continues toexpand and helping men who are
struggling out there and toallow them to feel and to
experience freedom themselves.
God bless you, my friend.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Thank you, eddie.
Your words mean the world.
Thanks for listening and don'tforget to get your copy of
Outgrow Porn at outgrowporncom.
Always remember you are God'sbeloved son.
In you he is well-pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thank you forlistening to the first episode
(00:21):
of Husband Material, wheresomeone else interviewed me.
Dr Eddie Caparucci, creator ofthe Inner Child Model and author
of Going Deeper, interviewed meabout my new book, outgrow Porn
, which you can get now atoutgrowporncom.
Enjoy the episode.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I am so excited to be here today with one of my best
friends and my colleague, drewBoa.
My best friends and mycolleague Drew Boa Drew has
given me the opportunity tointerview him about his new book
Outgrown Porn right.
Outgrown Porn Finding LastingFreedom Without Fighting an
(01:00):
Exhausting Battle.
You know, drew, it is anexhausting battle for so many
people who try to fightpornography.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yeah, it's so frustrating and exhausting
because the more you resistsexual thoughts and feelings,
the stronger they get.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
It may become overwhelming, and especially
when you can't, you know, getthem under control, which is
really part of the struggle atthe beginning for many of it.
But I want to start out.
I want to ask you the mostbasic question what led you to
write a book?
Speaker 1 (01:34):
It came from my own story of finding now 10 years of
freedom from internet porn andhelping other guys finding out
what works, what resonates,reading so many books like your
book and going through trainingsand putting it all together in
something that would be morepractical and relatable for
(01:55):
people while still being reallydeep and, I think, powerful too.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Yeah, and it is powerful.
It's a very powerful book.
You did a great job because,let's face it, there are a lot
of books out there on the market.
I put way too many out theremyself.
How do you think this book thatyou have written, how is it
different from others that areout there?
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Well, it's the exact opposite of a lot of books that
are based on purity culture, so,for example, the classic
evangelical sexual recoveryresource of Every Man's Battle.
It's also, I think, differentthan some of the more clinical
books Unwanted by Jay Stringerreally going into sexual
(02:45):
fantasies.
Another big influence was theinner child model, because the
book's all about healing the boyto free the man.
And then another big one for mewas Internal Family Systems,
ifs.
But there are no IFS books thatreally talk about sexual parts.
Like IFS is so good, but theyhaven't really applied it to
fantasies yet or they haven'treally applied it to porn.
(03:07):
So I'm trying to bring thosethings together.
And then the other thing is youencouraged me about two years
ago to write a book with toolsLike what can you actually do?
Right, because it's not justabout the problem.
We want to give peopleresources to actually solve the
problem.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, I mean, you remember the library I had
behind me, you know, hundredsand hundreds of books before we
moved.
I was so frustrated, so oftenyou read this book and you're
going through and you're reading, reading.
It's the problem, the problem,the problem, the problem, and
it's like, okay, well, hopefullyyou understand about the depth
of this problem and there's nosolutions.
(03:44):
And it drives me crazy.
And that's what I love aboutyour book it's just loaded with
the roadmap.
It has that roadmap, that guideto lead people to that kind of
freedom.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
You've been saying for a long time that the road to
recovery goes through yourchildhood, and I'm trying to
show what that road looks like.
And another big thing isstories of guys who are on this
journey who have given mepermission to share.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah, there's a lot of good ones that are in there.
So you believe that by someoneunderstanding what their sexual
fantasies are, that can be a keyto overcoming pornography?
Can you explain to our viewershow did that help, if I know
what my fantasies are?
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, my sexual fetish was always focused on
girls and women with braces, sothat would be the type of image
or video that I would search outon the internet to sexually
stimulate myself, and I alwaysthought that was weird and
strange, and yet alsofascinating and absolutely
(04:49):
irresistible.
For some reason, I never reallyunderstood why it had this
magnetic power over me, and whenI started to finally see what
was underneath that wow, what adifference.
I found that there was thismiddle school Drew who needed my
help, and that just changedeverything for me, like it was
(05:12):
no longer about fighting abattle against that part of me,
it was about befriending thatpart of me.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Understanding it.
Okay, yeah, and then you havethat understanding of what drove
you toward this interest, thisfascination in the sexual realm,
which, again, that's why youknow no, I'm the big, why, guy?
Why do I think, feel and actthe way I do?
(05:37):
And that takes you down thatpathway.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
For me it felt like that moment in the Wizard of Oz,
where Oz the great and powerfullooks like this big, scary
monster and then they pull backthe curtain and they see there's
this little old man in there,and so I felt like behind the
curtain of this porn that feltso powerful, there was this
little boy in there it takesaway a lot of the power that the
(06:09):
fantasy had before the urgeright, right, and that was
absolutely essential because in2014, after a whole year of
freedom from porn, I felt like Iwas back at the beginning, and
so it seemed like, no matter howmuch sobriety I get, it still
has power over me, and the goalof this book is not necessarily
(06:33):
to guarantee that you'll besober forever, but that it will
lose its power, that it willfeel less magical, more
manageable yes, and that's whatthe whole thing is.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
It's taking it.
You know, I have people say tome constantly like I just want
to be cured of this, and it'slike, well, I'm sorry, you're
talking to the wrong person andI'm not sure anyone that you
talk to is going to cure you.
We don't get cured.
What we do is we learn tomanage it.
But you can manage it veryeffectively and you can manage
(07:05):
it for the rest of your life,especially if you allow the
power that it has to dissipate.
And that's the thing I reallylove about your book.
It really kind of shows peoplehow to go about doing that.
So you put something else inthere that I was so excited to
see and that you have an entirechapter devoted to emotional
(07:29):
regulation.
And you know, I believeemotional regulation is recovery
.
That's recovery.
But why do you think this issuch an important topic that you
put a whole chapter in there?
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Because, as you see on the cover of the book, porn
is a pacifier.
In other words, it's a way ofsoothing pain.
Yes, it is a problem and alsoit's the solution that we found
when we were kids to the otherproblems we were facing in our
lives.
I find that whatever type ofporn has power, and whenever I
(08:07):
feel triggered or tempted towatch porn, there's some kind of
unprocessed pain, there's someunprocessed emotion underneath
it that gets sexualized.
So if we can process thosedeeper emotions, we desexualize
those feelings, those deeperemotions.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
we desexualize those feelings Exactly.
But you have to understand whatare those issues, what are the
pain points that again aresubconscious, that lead us to
what?
Speaker 1 (08:35):
And as men, we're often not taught to figure out
how we feel or talk about how wefeel, much less actually feel
things.
To be a man is to toughen up,not necessarily to feel your
emotions.
So it's exactly right thatemotional regulation is recovery
(08:57):
, and I wanted to take a lot ofthe science of polyvagal theory
and neuroplasticity and make iteasier for people to understand.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
And you were very successful in doing that,
because I've seen it many timeswhere it's explained polyvagal
and it's over a lot of people'sheads.
It may not go over your head,may not go over my head, but for
many other readers it is whatthey do.
They tune it out, and theproblem is that this is such a
(09:29):
critical subject.
It cannot be afforded to betuned out.
So I really applaud you forthat you put in there and I
found it very interesting and Inever really gave it much
thought, and that was this ideaof the difference between
arousal and being triggered, andbecause I always thought, well,
(09:51):
you're aroused to be triggered.
You know why is it importantfor people to distinguish
between the two of them?
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Arousal is your body's natural reaction to
stimuli.
So if I see an attractiveperson walking down the street,
that might be arousing, it mightbe exciting or interesting, and
then I can move on.
If that feels not justattractive but obsessive and
(10:20):
irresistible and I find myselfgoing back to that person hours
later or even days later, okay,there's something that got
triggered that isdisproportionate to this
everyday event.
So that can happen sexually,that can happen emotionally.
I'm talking with my wife andall of a sudden I shut down and
I go completely numb.
(10:41):
That's more than just a normalemotional reaction.
That's deeper.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, and it goes back to again our autonomic
nervous system.
You know, the sympathetic partof that has kicked in, Right.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
So when we get charged up, powered up
emotionally or sexually, we'rebeing aroused, and when that
feels overwhelming or it justcauses us to completely
dissociate, probably beingtriggered and in need of more
processing and relationalsupport.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
What should men do, if anything, about their arousal
?
Speaker 1 (11:22):
That's a great question.
It reminds me of an episode wedid on Husband Material last
year called it's good to bearoused with sam joelman.
You know it's, it's okay.
Like, arousal is a gift of god.
We can welcome it, we canunderstand it, ask the why
questions and we can appreciateit and say thank you for being
(11:45):
here and also manage it as we'vetalked about.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Because what's again, if I can correct me, being
aroused is very different thanthe being triggered.
Okay, because the trigger?
Again, there's some sort ofunderlining emotional driver
that is dysfunctional in a way.
(12:10):
Yeah, again, being aroused isjust part of our nature and the
way god designed us yeah, that'sreally well said.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Being triggered is often a trauma reaction right,
exactly, it is a trauma reactionyeah.
So if I find myself triggered,that means there's some kind of
threat, there's some kind offear, and lie under the surface
here that I need to become awareof.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
The thing that's just so confusing or so frustrating
is it doesn't feel like a threat.
At times when we're triggeredlike that, that's the last thing
it really feels like, butthat's because we don't really
understand the depth of what'sdriving that trigger.
(12:58):
Amen, yeah, you also wrotesomething, and it was stop
competing against your sexuality, because you're never going to
win, and instead collaboratewith your sexuality and you're
going to get to where you wantto go.
(13:18):
Now, I think you touched uponthis a little bit earlier when
we were talking, but what didyou mean by this?
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Well, first of all, I've experienced that I mean God
created our sexuality to be sopowerful.
It's like the ocean it'sbeautiful, it's awe-inspiring
and it can destroy you, you know.
Isn't that true of sex andsexuality?
Very, very much so.
And it can be fun and enjoyable, Beautiful, beautiful, right,
(13:54):
without enough safety orboundaries, like, yeah, it's
dangerous too.
So what do we do with the ocean?
We have to learn to work withit, and I tell the story about
taking my first surfing lessonand swimming against the waves
and getting nowhere.
That was my first two years oftrying to get free from porn,
(14:17):
just swimming against the wavesand getting pummeled, just
getting hit every time andmaking no progress.
So as we learn to ask thesedeeper questions of, okay,
what's underneath the surface ofmy sexual thoughts and feelings
, it's like we get under thewaves and we can move with them,
we can move through them.
There's this technique calledurge surfing, and I have my own
version of it, where you allowthe waves of sexual energy to
(14:41):
come and then you allow them topass.
This is a skill of breathing,observation and attunement BOA.
That is one of the tools thatcan really help guys when
they're triggered.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
You know, you bring up the idea of being.
You need to be able to drill,to go deeper, okay, to
understand what's under thesurface.
Why do you think there's somany men who are, and even women
too, women who struggle withporn and love addiction, that
they're hesitant to do that?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Well, one of the big reasons is that a lot of us grew
up in purity culture, and eventhose of us who didn't grow up
in purity culture often stillhad a very anti-sexual
upbringing, where this issomething we don't talk about.
This is something you have tokeep a secret.
So the idea of you know,figuring out what's that
(15:35):
specific sexual fantasy allabout, or why are we talking
about this particular type ofporn it's like that feels like
it goes against everything we'vebeen taught yeah, it's like a
taboo subject for people withthat.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
You're a big believer in the inner child.
You and I.
We have a very common bond here.
What is it about thistherapeutic concept that got you
interested?
Speaker 1 (16:04):
When I started to get to know my 13-year-old self and
then my even younger selves,the whole orphanage of inner
children within me, I felt likeJesus loved me there and his
love touched places that it hadnever touched before.
(16:25):
And so many guys say well, Iknow intellectually that God
loves me, but I don't feel itemotionally.
And I believe another way ofsaying that is there are parts
of me that don't feel the loveof God at all and it's those
inner children, it's thoselittle boys within us that need
to be rescued.
That inner child conceptresonates with me so much
(16:48):
because I've learned that when Iget triggered it's not mature,
adult, logical Drew, it's theboy.
I know a lot of people might bethinking well, that sounds kind
of like new age or that soundskind of hokey.
Well, scientifically we'retalking about implicit memory,
body memory.
Scientifically we're talkingabout implicit memory, body
(17:11):
memory.
And then biblically, I thinkabout Psalm 131,.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
I have stilled and quieted my soul within me, like
a weaned child with its mother.
Yeah, you know, and there'salso the aspect of it and what I
tried to communicate to people.
The inner child is a metaphor,yes, or the pain that we dealt
with as a child, adolescent andteen that has never been
resolved, that continues tostill haunt you today,
(17:40):
subconsciously.
Okay, now we've taken away allof the idea of there is like
little kid running around inside.
No, no, oh, I'm schizophrenic noit is a metaphor to help you
understand that your path isimpeding and it is hurting some
(18:04):
of the way you think, act andfeel in your world today,
especially when it comes torelating to your spouse or
partner.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
True, and it's a helpful metaphor.
If the inner child metaphordoesn't resonate, that's okay.
You and I have found that thishas unlocked amazing healing for
a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Yeah, what are the steps?
If people are listening todayand they're like, oh wow, you
know what?
That sounds pretty interestingand I think I do have some
wounds from the path.
How does somebody go aboutdiscovering their inner child?
Speaker 1 (18:40):
You can start by downloading a free PDF of
chapter one of the book Heal theBoy to Free the man, and at the
end of that chapter I give youa couple of exercises to be able
to connect with your innerchild, and one of them, called
non-dominant handwriting, isreally easy to use on your own.
It's safe, and so, even withouta therapist or counselor, you
(19:03):
can get started and try that out.
Try that out.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
I mean, it probably is better to, at some point, to
turn to someone who's beentrained in this field that can
kind of guide you along.
Just for the fact that thereare so many, you're going to hit
a lot of different walls.
Yes, like, for example, like,oh, I don't want to, you know,
give myself the perception thatmy parents were bad or evil.
(19:27):
And again, that's not what wedo.
We don't blame anyone, but wedo hold people accountable for
actions.
You know, another aspect couldbe the idea of not being able to
connect the dots all the time.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
so, therefore, to have that other perspective to
help you along the way, yeah,definitely, and if you read the
book you will figure out whereyour walls and barriers are that
you can take into therapy andcounseling Excellent.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
You also write about.
The idea of having someone telltheir story is something that
can be extremely powerful.
People don't want to tell theirstory.
They don't even want to thinkabout their story.
So why is that the case?
What happens when we can getpeople to open up and to share?
(20:21):
We're not talking about gettingup on your rooftop and shouting
it to the world.
I'm talking about, even if it'sjust one person.
What's the benefit of doingthat?
Speaker 1 (20:32):
When you get into the details of exactly what you've
struggled with and what'shappened to you and what you're
going through now, the shame isshattered, the silence is broken
and evil begins to lose itsgrip and intimacy.
(20:54):
What we truly need starts togrow.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Talk about the idea of really what's sitting behind
the surface is intimacy, theneed for intimacy.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Yeah, we were created for connection, for close
relationships, for intimacy.
Yet many of us grew up with adisconnected childhood, even if
your parents loved you, even ifyou had so many privileges and
great things going on, even ifyou had so many privileges and
great things going on, whateverlevel of relationship we had we
(21:33):
thought was normal, even if wewere alone, even if we were
misunderstood or abused orabandoned.
(21:54):
Whatever we grow up with, wejust think it's normal.
But our bodies still crave thatconnection we were created for,
and porn provides a symbolicsexual version of it.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Many of us don't really know what emotional
intimacy is because we've neverexperienced it, and so we settle
for a physical, sexualizedversion of it and and that's why
, again, you know, after awhile's partner being in the
relationship for a while,they're like wait, the only time
you want to come near me andtouch me is when you want to be
(22:20):
sexual.
Other than that, if not, youwant to play with your little
marvel characters over here.
Whatever, you know, not me, andand and they, they start to
feel used.
But again, they don'tunderstand the dynamic and we're
not saying it's correct andwe're not saying it should be
tolerated, but the dynamic ishe's thinking oh, we're
(22:43):
connecting, I'm bonding with you, isn't this great?
Well, it's great, but I needmore.
And we're like I don't knowwhat that more is.
I don't know how to give it toyou.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
And that is why men struggle to love.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
So let me ask you this what is your favorite thing
about freedom from pornography?
Speaker 1 (23:29):
My favorite thing about freedom from pornography.
My favorite thing about freedomfrom pornography is that I now
have a relationship with littleDrew and with Jesus.
So this is what I call thehealing triangle my adult self,
my inner child and Jesus.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
That is the strongest triangle in my life.
Powerful.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Very, very powerful.
Nothing is going to break themback, and sometimes I experience
Jesus through other people,through the men in my group or
through a friend.
So it's not saying that I don'tneed community.
It's saying that oftentimesJesus speaks and works through
others.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
What you're talking about here.
This is your core, yes, this isyour core, but the community
has to surround it, becausecommunity is also emotional
intimacy.
Yeah, exactly, and so therefore, again, the balance.
We've always been out ofbalance.
But what you brought up earlier, well, we didn't know that.
(24:31):
I don't know what I don't know.
All I know is this is my life,this is how I live, and so be it
.
But now realizing, ooh, thatbalance needs to be leveled.
You have a really fascinatingparallel in the book the monster
(24:53):
and the mouse.
Tell people, take a few minutesand talk about that.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
At the end of the book.
I wanted to give you somethingthat would allow you to really
feel the truth of the book, notjust read about it, but to have
a different way to experience it.
So it's fictional, it's atotally different genre.
The idea is there's a man wholives in a house with a monster
(25:21):
in the basement and he's alwaysfighting against the monster.
I won't give away the secretplot twist in the parable, and
so when you, when you read theparable, it's a way of engaging
your right brain you know wehave left brain logic and right
brain emotion, and so what's theright brain?
Speaker 2 (25:44):
What do you mean?
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Right brain in the wrong brain.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah, I mean you want to talk about.
The issue that we struggle withis the right hemisphere of our
brain, you know, does notfunction as well as the left
side does, and that drew pointedout.
The right side is thatemotional aspect, and that's why
I love the fact you putsomething in there, because it
(26:09):
kind of gives them theopportunity to have to use the
right brain to really kind offeel, not think, feel.
You know what you were writingabout there.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
So my last question what's the topic of your next
book?
Speaker 1 (26:29):
I still keep thinking about that.
This has been so grueling anddifficult to create over the
last four years that I am not ina rush to do another book.
The next book that is actuallycoming out with this one is the
Alcroporn Workbook.
Very good, so that you can gothrough this material and really
(26:53):
process it not just readthrough it and get the
information, but start to do thework of transformation.
And it's going to be great forgroups as well.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
I was fortunate that I had the opportunity to be able
to read this in its manuscriptform.
I have to tell you, right as Isaid before, there are many
books that are out there.
There are many books on adifferent topic.
This is an outstanding bookbecause, again, while it does
(27:25):
get into some of the issues,it's more about the solution.
It is about that idea offreedom.
It's about the fact that thesoothing techniques that you've
used over the years we don'tneed to use them anymore.
We don't need it.
There's other soothingtechniques that are so much more
(27:47):
powerful yes, so much morepowerful.
And Drew captures it.
He captured it all in here.
I've read it twice.
I love the book.
(28:08):
Yes, going to look forward towhat the future brings, with
Drew Boa as he continues toexpand and helping men who are
struggling out there and toallow them to feel and to
experience freedom themselves.
God bless you, my friend.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Thank you, eddie.
Your words mean the world.
Thanks for listening and don'tforget to get your copy of
Outgrow Porn at outgrowporncom.
Always remember you are God'sbeloved son.
In you he is well-pleased.
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