November 17, 2025 • 44 mins
In this episode, Doug and Drew explain their powerful, unique approach to psychodrama: DIRECT. You'll learn how this powerful modality can help you experience deeper healing and freedom from porn.
D.I.R.E.C.T. = Dynamic, Intuitive, Redemptive, Embodied, Communal Transformation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart, and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa, and I'mhere to show you how.
Let's go.
Hey, my name is Drew Boa.
(00:20):
I'm the founder of HusbandMaterial, where I help men
outgrow porn.
Today we are talking aboutpsychodrama, a powerful approach
to healing trauma, getting freein many areas of life, and
something that I have learnedfrom my dear friend, Dr.
Doug Carpenter, and his uniqueapproach, which we are calling
direct.
Today you're going to hear aboutthe direct approach to
(00:43):
psychodrama, why it's unique anddifferent from some of the other
organizations that do similarwork, and what we do at Husband
Material Healing Weekends.
These are intimate, intense, andamazing four-day weekends for a
(01:03):
maximum of eight participants ata time.
These healing weekends fill up.
Our upcoming one in Utah is nowfull, but the one in Florida has
some spots available evenfarther into the future.
If you go tohusbandmaterial.com/slash
retreat, you'll see our nextlarger retreats and smaller
healing weekends.
We would love to see you there.
Doug is kind of like the guruwho has been training me and our
(01:26):
coaches in how to do this work,and I can think of no one better
than him to be able to unpackwhat happens when we create
space for transformation.
Enjoy the episode.
Welcome to Husband Material.
We get to spend even more timewith Dr.
Doug Carpenter.
Welcome back.
SPEAKER_00 (01:45):
Thank you.
It's always great to be back.
Especially about such anexciting topic that we're going
to talk about today.
Something that I just love.
SPEAKER_02 (01:52):
We are talking about the unique approach that Husband
Material uses for embodiedhealing processes.
We sometimes call itpsychodrama, that Doug has
developed.
In 2021, at the very firsthusband material retreat, first
time I ever met Doug Carpenterin person, I invited Doug to
(02:14):
lead a breakout session, and Ididn't know what I was in for.
He did something I had neverseen.
It was incredibly powerful.
I had no words for it.
And now I know that I was seeingpsychodrama.
Doug, what is psychodrama?
SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
Well, it's it's a way to embody your internal
experience in an outward way.
So I think I've said this on thepodcast when we've talked about
this before, but psychodramacame out of Italy, a man named
Jay Marino, where he waswatching a group of kids play on
a playground and just reallyrealized they're acting out
(02:54):
their traumas and they'reresolving stuff through their
play.
How could I get adults to dothis?
And so then he started havinggroups where people would come
and he would walk them throughin a very attuned way how to
work out some of the traumasthat they were dealing with.
And it just showed tremendousresults.
(03:15):
So that's what we do inpsychodrama.
We take either an experiencethat you've had, a situation
that you've had, an emotion thatyou're having, a part of you
that is experiencing something,and we embody it.
We act it out, we turn it intolife and have an interplay and
an interchange around it.
SPEAKER_02 (03:37):
And if you're still having trouble imagining this,
one of the most common featuresof psychodrama is role-playing.
So you could be in a group wheresomebody's playing your dad or
your mom or your anger, yourfear.
We could have someone playingthe role of Jesus.
You could have someone playingyour inner child, and it all
(04:00):
organically develops intosomething that gets to the core
of exactly what we're dealingwith.
SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
And healing can often come in surprising ways.
Very surprising ways.
Once you embody something andstart to act it out, it taps
into a deep layer of emotionthat you may not even be aware
of.
It's a very what we call acathartic experience.
Something begins to shift insideof you and you begin to
(04:32):
experience this in all in awhole new way.
And sometimes we need to go backand revisit things and
experience those feelings.
But the ultimate goal then is tore-experience them in a way this
time that has a differentoutcome for you, and that you're
witnessed and attuned to andseen and cared for.
(04:53):
So you can have a differentresolution.
And that cathartic process iswhat brings the healing in the
situation.
SPEAKER_02 (05:02):
You've described it as undoing and redoing.
SPEAKER_00 (05:06):
Absolutely.
Those are two great words.
You go back, you create thescenario, you undo it, tear it
apart, analyze it, and then weoften redo it in a way that you
would like to have had theoutcome turn out, or experience
a shift in feelings that youneeded to happen back there,
(05:27):
that then ultimately leads tohealing.
SPEAKER_02 (05:30):
And it can also be focused on the present,
something you're in the middleof right now that's overwhelming
or difficult, or it could besomething in the future that you
are dreading, or that you needto start processing before it
happens.
SPEAKER_00 (05:47):
Or do rehearsal for.
How am I going to feel when I dothis, when this happens?
And so we walk through it as ifit were happening.
And your body can, your body,your mind, your emotions can
begin to adjust and wrap itselfaround the experience in
preparation for you to havethat.
SPEAKER_02 (06:07):
So past, present, future, emotional, relational,
sexual, physical, all of it canbe involved in a psychodrama
process.
Why is psychodrama so powerfulfor men outgrowing porn?
SPEAKER_00 (06:23):
Well, because it opens you up to vulnerability
and expression, expression ofyour emotion, and that you can
experience, you can embody it,you can experience it, you can
bring it outside of yourself.
You can hear it, you can see it,you can attune to it, you can
have others reciprocate allthose things to you because so
(06:46):
many times men who are facingstruggles have never felt
witnessed or seen or heard.
And this provides all thoseopportunities.
SPEAKER_02 (06:56):
Such a breakthrough into vulnerability, community,
empowerment, expression, andalso deep processing.
Porn gets its power fromunprocessed experiences.
And the more we process thoseexperiences, especially the ones
that we're sexualizing throughporn, the less power it has over
(07:20):
us.
It's not like I'm never going tobe tempted again, but it doesn't
have the same pull.
And when I can see it moreclearly, when I can relate to
myself and others differently init, wow.
SPEAKER_00 (07:32):
It's hard to describe the difference.
It is.
And so many men turn to porn asa coping skill.
Porn is not the problem, it'sthe coping skill that they've
developed for an underlyingconflict and dynamic that needs
to be worked out.
It's a deeper emotional woundthat needs to be worked through,
that is just manifesting ormasking with porn as a behavior
(07:56):
to cope.
And psychodrama helps get tothose underlying conflicts that
are really at the core of whoyou are and that's just causing
you to get off track.
SPEAKER_02 (08:09):
And when you think about our traumas or our
conflicts or the places in ourlife where we feel stuck.
Our survival instincts are moreconnected to this.
(08:33):
I often say it's not the mature,adult, logical, rational you
that is stuck in porn.
Right.
It's a younger, more emotional,more vulnerable, wounded part of
you.
SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
Well, oftentimes in the psychodrama, we take you
back to that.
When did you fight, flight,freeze, fawn, flop?
You know, we take you back tothat experience and what was
going on, and have someoneattuned to you in that moment
and help you through thatexperience.
SPEAKER_02 (09:10):
Could be the experience of being all alone as
a kid, could be the experienceof encountering porn for the
first time, could be sexualabuse or early sexual awakening
where you felt fear and shameand disconnection.
Oftentimes, our psychodramaprocesses engage with the inner
(09:32):
child in some way, but in everysingle case, it's embodied,
which is huge because porn takesus out of our bodies.
It's a way to escape from ourstories and our feelings.
Psychodrama, you get into yourstory and your feelings, and we
let what's inside come out in acathartic way, in a safe
(09:53):
container.
And that's so important becauseoftentimes the only place where
we feel like we can let out someof these feelings is through a
secret sexual outlet rather thanin real life letting things be
seen, known, and healed.
SPEAKER_00 (10:12):
You mentioned the whole inner child work.
And I was just sitting herethinking about one of the most
powerful processes that you andI have ever done together, I
think, is where a man went in toa doctor's office and rescued
his inner child from some traumathat was happening.
And that was just so powerful.
By going in and rescuing hisinner child from that terrible
(10:35):
situation, he gained so muchpower back from being able to do
that.
And it's just such a beautifulthing to watch that healing
occur in the moment.
SPEAKER_02 (10:50):
Because in that doctor's office, he felt
powerless.
And I was actually playing hisinner child.
SPEAKER_00 (10:58):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (10:59):
And I'll never forget.
We were both weeping andsobbing, and and and he picked
me up and carried me out andbrought me back into his life
today.
SPEAKER_00 (11:12):
And that caused such a huge shift in his feelings and
self-concept, and the part ofhim that needed to be brought to
a place of healing.
SPEAKER_02 (11:24):
That little boy was stuck back there.
And there was a very clearbefore and after story.
And it's not like some kind ofarrival, but it is an amazing
amount of progress that canhappen in a very short amount of
time.
Yes.
And there are different men'sexperiential weekends where you
(11:44):
can experience psychodrama.
While learning from you, Doug, Ieventually realized that you do
it differently.
And over the past two years,I've been formulating a theory
about what makes Doug's approachunique and coded it as the
(12:08):
direct approach, D-I-R-E-C-T.
And we're gonna go through eachletter of direct to describe how
it works.
Doug, what makes what you dodifferent than some of these
other organizations?
SPEAKER_00 (12:24):
Okay.
And I do lots of psychodramawith these other organizations,
but oftentimes their process canat times be very structured.
There are certain steps that youfollow.
A lot of times you only have 30to 45 minutes to do the process.
Where in the approach that youand I have worked on, we have
(12:46):
retreats where people have twoto two and a half hours apiece
to work through this.
So the level and the depth thatwe can get into in the
psychodrama is much, much deeperand can be way more powerful
than if you just have a shorteramount of time.
Even though I have seenbeautiful, beautiful things
(13:08):
happen in 30 to 45 minutes.
SPEAKER_02 (13:11):
So we don't want to discount or discredit those
experiences because they areabsolutely divine,
transformational, and amazing.
And we really see the need tospend more time on this,
partially because everybody inthe group is also experiencing
(13:32):
something at a deep level.
And rather than just move on tothe next person and go to his
process, we want to allow eachperson to fully share and
receive what they got out ofanother man's work.
SPEAKER_00 (13:50):
Yes.
So we take the process and kindof put it on steroids.
I guess a way I want to saythis.
And it's funny because when Ifirst learned how to do
psychodrama, I learned it from aman when we were in a running
groups in an addiction treatmentcenter.
So I didn't learn a realstructured way to do this.
I learned a very creative way todo this.
(14:13):
And so I've always operatedhighly in the creativity part of
this.
And then when I got out there inthe other in the world and found
more people who were doing thisand they were doing it in a much
more structured way, I was like,oh, that's really odd to me
because I'm used to having allthis space and free-flowing
energy and creativity.
And so I've tried to mix thosetwo worlds.
(14:36):
I try to have some structure,but mostly create a space where
we can use creativity and doanything that needs to be done
in the setting.
Like the D that we have in thedirector project is called
dynamic.
And we have it called dynamicfor for lots of reasons.
We can focus on anything,anything, any part of you that
(15:01):
that is coming up and ispresent.
We don't have really anyconstraints.
We can use a very dynamicformat.
Well, we have some constraints.
Yeah, but what I mean by that islike we've done psychodrama in
the pool, we've done psychodramain the parking lot of a
pharmacy, we've done so whateverneeds to happen in that moment,
(15:24):
we will do our best to recreatethe situation for you to truly
have a cathartic experience.
It becomes extremely dynamic.
We're not structured to pointthe point where there has to be
a certain setting, a certaintime, it has to progress a
certain way.
I remember one time Drew wasvery got very tied up by someone
(15:44):
who was wanted to bound thecharacter that he was playing,
and they drag him outside of thehouse.
SPEAKER_02 (15:50):
Yeah.
So I tend to be very good atplaying evil or the inner
critic, the voice of accusationor condemnation.
Yes, which is a very dark roleand yet often very powerful for
(16:10):
the man doing his work to talkback to that voice and even to
defeat evil.
Over conquer.
Yeah.
So if a man experiences a lot ofself-hatred or he's disgusted
with himself or something he'sdone, if he feels like the voice
(16:33):
of the enemy is whispering inhis ear, we can create an
embodied process to be able towork with that.
SPEAKER_00 (16:42):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (16:44):
While it is very dynamic, we do have some
boundaries.
For example, we're always goingto be closed.
SPEAKER_00 (16:52):
Well, for example, we had a person who had a trauma
during a swim class.
So we all got our swimmingtrunks on, we all got out in the
pool and we recreated thatscenario for this man to work
through the situation.
And the pool was the rightsetting for this to happen.
So we tailor make it to beappropriate.
SPEAKER_02 (17:15):
We turned a kitchen counter into a bar scene where a
man got to have the conversationwith his father that he wished
he would have had and never got.
SPEAKER_00 (17:29):
And that's the creativity part of this.
We we can keep it so dynamic andso open, you know, that it is
truly a science and an art.
But there's a lot of art hereand a lot of creativity to turn
your setting into whatever weneed it to be.
SPEAKER_02 (17:48):
It's an adventure into the unknown.
Everything is constantlyevolving, and yet we're not
making things up either.
Everything we do is based onwhat is being said or shared.
SPEAKER_00 (18:03):
You're right.
That's the I and the direct, isthe intuitive part.
Drew and I will intently attuneand listen to the person, their
story, the emotions that arecoming, the nonverbal cues that
we're seeing from a person, andwe'll read those and we'll check
in with them and we'll draw thatout as much as we can to bring
(18:26):
it to life.
It's a very intuitive process.
We are very focused on you andyour experience.
And that's why it can go in anypossible direction.
SPEAKER_02 (18:40):
So we're never going to introduce something and say,
now you have to follow theseinstructions.
Rather, we are going to followthe man doing his work in what
he's talking about and check into see if something resonates.
(19:02):
If we have an idea or apotential direction for where
this process could go, it'snever imposed, it's always
proposed, it's always asuggestion.
And if my grand big idea was notfeeling safe for the person or
(19:26):
not feeling like what he needs,then we throw it out the window.
SPEAKER_00 (19:30):
We don't do something that's prescribed.
What we often do is if if you'reexperiencing anger in the
moment, we will stop and ask youwhat needs to happen with this
anger.
What does he need to do?
How does he need to expresshimself?
What do you want to happen withthis?
And we completely follow yourlead.
SPEAKER_02 (19:54):
It may be that there would be a lot of healing in
expressing that anger throughhitting a punching bag, for
example.
Sorry, I just started laughing.
We even had somebody burn thebook, I Kiss Dating Goodbye, as
a way of breaking up with purityculture.
SPEAKER_00 (20:15):
Yes.
So I was aware this man was verytraumatized by this book.
He had shared that with us.
He had let us know that talkingabout that book was probably
going to be part of his process.
So before the weekend everstarted, I went and bought the
book and I hid it in the house.
So during his process, Iinadvertently had him find this
(20:37):
book, and then he was able todestroy the book.
We went out to the fire pit andhe ripped it up and was able to
burn it and really sever hisunhealthy connection with purity
culture through this.
SPEAKER_02 (20:52):
Yeah, it was beautiful.
SPEAKER_00 (20:54):
Beautiful.
SPEAKER_02 (20:54):
And that was just one part of his process.
But the point is that's whatfelt intuitive to him.
SPEAKER_00 (21:02):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (21:02):
So when we say it's intuitive, yes, the facilitators
are using our intuition, butreally we're trusting the
intuition of the man himself asour primary guide.
That's really important becauseit's not like we're leading the
way and saying, follow me, dothis.
It's like, no, the client leadsthe way.
SPEAKER_00 (21:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:23):
And we're coming with you.
SPEAKER_00 (21:25):
Just like in anger, we need to find out from you.
Does this anger need to beexpressed?
Or do you need love or Jesus orsomething, someone to come in
and sit with your anger to calmit and soothe it?
I can't prescribe that for you.
I have to figure out what youneed.
And it's my job to then helpfacilitate that happening for
(21:47):
you through my use of knowledgeand creativity.
SPEAKER_02 (21:51):
This is never an investigation with a diagnosis.
SPEAKER_00 (21:55):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (21:56):
This is always attuning, checking in, and
seeing what resonates.
Sometimes we have to get towhat's underneath the anger,
which could be sadness or shameor feeling completely alone.
One time we had a trial processwhere Doug was the attorney,
(22:23):
which you're a really goodattorney, by the way.
SPEAKER_00 (22:28):
We put his abusers on trial.
SPEAKER_02 (22:31):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (22:31):
Right.
And his bullies.
SPEAKER_02 (22:33):
And his bullies, yes.
And we asked the man, what doyou want to happen here?
And he took the charges againsthis bullies, he tore them to
shreds, and he said, I forgiveyou.
And that's what he needed to doin the moment.
SPEAKER_00 (22:51):
It was a beautiful release of years of pent-up hurt
and energy.
unknown (22:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:58):
I think it shocked you and I.
I don't think you and I wereprepared for him to say that.
We were expecting, okay, now thebullies are going to fully be
punished for their behavior.
And then he offered themforgiveness, and it's it just
totally changed the entireperspective and what was
happening in the psychodrama.
But it was the most beautifulthing that needed to happen.
SPEAKER_02 (23:19):
And that's why the letter R indirect stands for
redemptive.
These experiences are meant toredeem incomplete experiences.
And we don't necessarily knowhow that's going to happen, but
we try to stay sensitive to thenudges from the Holy Spirit or
(23:41):
the ways that the man's originstory might reach a new
conclusion.
And that experience of forgivinghis bullies was a great example.
SPEAKER_00 (23:54):
Yeah.
And the redemptive part, so manytimes we invite Jesus or God,
who what whatever deity personyou need to come and be along
with you and help you see thathe was there all along with you.
And that can be such aredemptive, emotionally changing
(24:16):
process to bring in thespiritual component during the
redemptive stage.
SPEAKER_02 (24:22):
I remember there was a process where a man was
carrying a lot of shame aboutone of his eyes.
And I remember that I wassitting across from him and he
he was not ready to look into myeyes.
And I felt the presence of Jesusin me prompting me to see if it
(24:48):
would be okay for me to touchhis eyelids.
And when that happened, it waslike Jesus touching the eyes of
a man who was blind.
And eventually he looked up andthe tears were streaming down
his cheeks.
And that was another inner childrescue process, but then Jesus
(25:11):
showed up.
SPEAKER_00 (25:14):
So beautiful and powerful.
I mean, some of the some of themost extraordinary moments of my
career have been in thesemoments of doing this process
with Drew and with the men thatwe work with.
Just to see the transformationthis approach can make in
people's lives is phenomenal.
SPEAKER_02 (25:36):
Oftentimes we'll end a process by singing a worship
song that relates to the theme,and it hits such a deep place in
our souls.
That's part of the redemptivepiece of this, and why we see
God working throughout, and wetry to create space to invite
(26:00):
him into the process as much aspossible.
SPEAKER_00 (26:03):
Very much.
And sometimes we'll often end inprayer as well.
Maybe not just a worship song,but prayer or prayer for this
person to move into a new place,a new realm, a new emotional
space of health.
And it's it's just been sopowerful.
SPEAKER_02 (26:23):
And oftentimes in our healing weekends, we will
end with a journaling processwhere you're not just writing a
prayer to God, you're actuallygetting an impression of what
Jesus might be saying to you.
That's the redemptive piece.
The E indirect stands forembodied.
Now, this is already obvious atsome level, but then Doug, you
(26:49):
take it to the next levelbecause we are always looking
for ways to make each process asphysical as possible.
SPEAKER_00 (26:58):
Absolutely.
Like you when somebody takes ona role, we put them in that
role.
Like we have lots of props thatwe use, colors of cloth, we turn
emotions into colors andsurround people with that color.
We truly try to embody and bringthe role to life so the person
(27:22):
can truly experience it outsideof themselves.
SPEAKER_02 (27:26):
For example, we had a man do a process with his
inner infant, his baby self.
So having a baby doll in theroom to represent that for him
(27:47):
took it much deeper.
I don't know if we could havegotten to that point without
some kind of physicalrepresentation.
SPEAKER_00 (27:57):
Right.
And another one that comes tomind for me, there was a
situation where somebody hadexperienced a trauma in a
building that was just beingbuilt where the studs were
around.
And we took the bar stools andturned them upside down that
surrounded him as if there werethese two by fours all around
him.
And it became so realistic.
Like we turn our environmentupside down when we're doing
(28:20):
this.
We'll use any piece offurniture, any, any, anything we
can get our hands on to recreatethe experience.
And it just becomes so powerful.
SPEAKER_01 (28:30):
Couches, tables.
It could look like a disasterzone.
SPEAKER_00 (28:35):
Yes.
Sometimes we have to completelyput the environment back
together.
We have some of these weekendsat my home in Florida.
And so I have to warn theneighbors, hey, I'm having a
guy's retreat this weekend.
So you gotta be, you know, younever know what you might see or
might be happening.
And so they're kind of like, oh,you're having another one of
those weekends things, right?
I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, weare.
(28:57):
So, you know, just kind ofignore us.
You're probably gonna see somestrange stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (29:01):
You might hear some loud profanity.
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
You may hear some loud yelling.
You never know what's gonnahappen.
But yeah, sometimes after aprocess, we have to completely
put the room back togetherbecause we have just totally
transformed it into whateverspace the person needs and been
able to do whatever action needsto happen.
SPEAKER_02 (29:23):
Yes.
And many of you have heard metalk about the power of
particularity.
I want to give an example ofthat.
I did a process where I wasworking through my undiagnosed
ADHD as a kid and how I would beconstantly losing things like my
backpack, my phone, clothing,keys, school books.
(29:48):
And so when I started myprocess, I closed my eyes and
asked people to go and get thoseobjects and put them in front of
me.
And when they did, this gutturalgroan and wail came up within
(30:09):
me.
Just the unbelievablefrustration I had in wanting to
remember, wanting to keep trackof these things, wanting to do
what my parents asked me to do,and just feeling utterly unable
to do it.
And in my mind, those backpacksand school supplies and
everything were huge.
They were like buildings aboveme, and I was so small.
(30:31):
And then when I opened my eyes,I saw that how small they truly
were.
And something shifted.
And that was just the beginningof my process.
But it's an example of how whenwe get physical items or people
who have for certain physicaltraits, sometimes it makes it
(30:55):
more real than if you were justdoing this work internally in a
one-on-one session.
SPEAKER_00 (31:01):
Absolutely.
And the power of having otherpeople involved.
And we'll get to the this nextone.
The C in direct is communal.
And the communal part is weinvolve so many people.
Like you have your process asthe protagonist, but then you
ask other group members to playthe parts in your story.
(31:21):
And they take on differentroles.
And it's so powerful sometimeswhat you can experience when you
take on a role for someone intheir process and the stuff that
it will bring up inside of you.
And then how much it helps theperson who's the protagonist to
have you there playing that rolefor them.
(31:45):
Everybody gets involved.
And even if you're not chosenfor a role, the whole event is
so captivating that it's hardfor you not to get something out
of everyone's process.
So we usually do this with eightguys, like at least two hours
apiece.
So that's what 16 hours oftherapy.
(32:08):
I mean, for yourself, eventhough you're not the one in the
hot seat the whole time, but yougain so much from just being
involved and present.
SPEAKER_02 (32:18):
You gain empathy, you gain friendships, you gain
an awareness of the power of Godas you witness how He's working.
It's been so encouraging to me.
It's been so confirming of like,I'm not just making this whole
Christianity thing up becauselike, look what Jesus is doing
(32:41):
right now.
SPEAKER_00 (32:42):
Right.
And the deep friendships thatI've seen develop between men
who've gone through thesehealing weekends together is
just astounding.
Men truly have relationships andfriends and a group of men that
they can relate to like they'venever experienced.
SPEAKER_02 (33:02):
I've led a lot of online groups.
And occasionally, friendships inthose online groups will
continue or they'll keepmeeting.
The level of continuity I'veseen after these healing
weekends, where we do the directapproach, psychodrama for four
days, has been phenomenal.
(33:23):
Most of the time, these guyskeep in touch and we'll see each
other again and pick up fromwhere we left off.
So that's why the see indirectis so important, communal.
It's not just one man doing hiswork, it's really everybody
(33:43):
working together as a team.
We leave no man behind in eachprocess.
And before and after eachprocess, we always check in with
everybody because stuff willcome up that we might skip over
if we were only doing 30 to 45minutes per person.
You know, okay, we got to get tothe next guy, we got to get
(34:04):
through everybody.
It's like, no, we have time andspace to slow down and let each
man fully share and receive whathe needs.
That's huge.
And then another piece of thecommunal aspect of this that
that's heightened in the way wedo it is giving each man in the
group more of a role to play.
(34:28):
Because it's not as controlled,yeah, there's maybe some more
risk involved of somebody sayingthe wrong thing or doing
something that doesn't resonate.
But it's not just the leaderswho are guiding this.
We're saying, hey, if you guyshave an idea, come and whisper
it in our ear and maybe we'll doit.
SPEAKER_00 (34:47):
Yeah.
If you're picking up on anemotion or a feeling or
something that we're not seeing,or even when you're playing a
role, if something's coming upfor you in relation to this
person and how you bring thatout, like we welcome all that.
We welcome group participation.
SPEAKER_02 (35:06):
We're co-creating it together.
And oftentimes participants, notjust leaders, will have a
breakthrough inspiration, orthey'll know just the right
thing to say, even though wedidn't tell them to say it.
SPEAKER_00 (35:21):
Yeah.
And part of the beauty of this,too, is that you have two
skilled facilitators.
Like Drew and I are both very,very, very creative people, and
we work well off of each otherand we have great intuition for
one another and what we'rethinking and seeing.
(35:43):
And, you know, together we'repretty a pretty dynamic duo.
And I love working with him, buttogether, we can keep the energy
level up, we can keep theattunement up.
You know, you've got such anadvantage of having both of us
there together, and then all theother members playing into it as
(36:04):
well.
It just becomes so powerful.
SPEAKER_02 (36:08):
So, in this approach, we need at least two
facilitators in the healingweekends we have planned for
2026.
There will be threefacilitators, and that also
allows us to step aside withgroup member who might be
especially triggered and whoneeds more support because this
process was too much for them.
There's so much time, so muchspace, so much support involved.
(36:33):
We don't control what happens.
We don't try to lead it toward aspecific outcome, but we trust
that there will betransformation.
And that's the last letter ofdirect.
SPEAKER_00 (36:45):
Yeah, a transformation needs to come at
the level that you're ready forit to happen, not what we're
ready for it.
Because I may still be able tosee three more steps ahead of
you of what needs to happen.
But I've had people in apsychodrama get to the point
where they say, I'm done.
I've got what I needed.
Like this is this is where Ineed to stop right now.
(37:06):
I need to absorb this.
And that's perfectly fine.
That's wonderful.
So transformation comes at yourreadiness, not something we're
pushing you to do.
SPEAKER_02 (37:19):
And we recognize that we don't create the
transformation, we create thespace.
God is the one who transforms,and we entrust the whole process
to him.
SPEAKER_00 (37:31):
And we try to take something from the experience
for you to really anchor.
We call it the anchor.
And this happens in guts workand other other types of doing
this as well.
But we try to anchor it likewhat can you hang on to?
What can you take away fromhere?
What's a statement, a phrase, anew mantra, a symbol of
(37:52):
something that you can reallyhang on to and stay with you as
an anchor to carry with youforward to remind you of the
transformation that's happened.
SPEAKER_02 (38:02):
And that's something that I learned from Roy Wooten.
Doug, I know you've learned alot from Rich Weiler, and there
are other people like MattWinger, Andrew Bauman, who have
helped me get into this.
The direct approach is notnecessarily totally new, but I
do think it's a really uniqueevolution of this work that is
(38:28):
more dynamic, more intuitive,redemptive, embodied, more fully
communal and transformative.
So if you want to experiencethis with Doug and I and some of
our other leaders, we want toinvite you to apply for an
upcoming Husband MaterialHealing Weekend.
You can do that athusbandmaterial.comslash retreat
(38:51):
and see all of our retreatscoming up and the healing
weekends.
How are retreats different fromhealing weekends?
Well, retreats have a muchlarger group, say 100
participants and 20 staff.
A healing weekend has a maximumof eight participants with three
staff and one cook.
(39:11):
So 12 total under one roof,eating all of our meals
together, playing together,connecting and checking in in
between these intense processes.
So it's a much more intimate,personal, and open-ended
experience that has beenabsolutely profound to witness.
(39:34):
The healing weekend we havecoming up in Utah is now full,
but the one in Florida in lateJanuary still has some spots
available.
If you're listening to thismonths or years into the future,
we are doing these regularly andwould love to see if you might
be a good fit.
This is a next level experiencefor men who have already done
(39:57):
some work within husbandmaterial.
It's not something we want youto jump into if you've never
done HMA or joined a privategroup or been to a retreat.
Because of the intensity andbecause of the unique approach,
we want to make sure it's a goodfit.
And the way to do that first isby coming to some of our other
opportunities within HusbandMaterial and seeing if you want
(40:21):
to go to the next level, inwhich case we invite you to
apply.
And you can do that at the linkin the show notes.
One of the most common reactionsI hear from men who hear about
this work and they'reconsidering if they might want
to do it is that they feelintimidated.
It's scary to consider whatmight happen if I open myself up
(40:44):
to this kind of experience.
I want to reassure you that inevery man's process, including
yours, you have a voice and achoice.
And we trust you when you sayyou need something different.
(41:05):
If there is one word thatcaptures what I've learned from
Doug, it is attune, attune,attune.
More attunement, moreattunement, more attunement,
which means at every point we'relistening to you.
(41:25):
We're following your lead.
We're staying with you.
We're not leaving you alone.
This is never gonna go to aplace where you are forced to do
something.
Rather, we're surrounding youwith the relational support and
(41:49):
sensitivity that you might needto face some of the most
challenging fears and places ofshame that you might not ever
otherwise be able to access.
And when we go there, we alsotrust that Jesus is with us, and
as we enter into a kind ofcrucifixion, that there will be
(42:14):
resurrection, even beyond whatwe can imagine.
Doug, what is your favoritething about psychodrama using
the direct approach?
SPEAKER_00 (42:26):
Oh, that's a big question.
It's gotta be the transformationstage to just see a person from
start to finish and then wherethey're at at the end.
You watch healing happen rightin front of your eyes.
And it's it's it's somethingthat's unexplainable.
(42:49):
It is just a transformation thathappens before your eyes, and it
is truly the most phenomenalthing I can witness.
And it's the moments that I livefor in doing men's work, is for
these transformative momentsthat I see happen through the
(43:09):
work that we do.
Miracles, miracles.
SPEAKER_02 (43:14):
Sometimes a man looks younger or you can just
see the freedom, the relief therelief of the burden.
SPEAKER_00 (43:24):
Yes, and just their whole countenance of being
unburdened is just astounding.
SPEAKER_02 (43:32):
So it's hard to describe, but you have to
experience it.
And we would love to see if itmight be a good fit to have you
at an upcoming healing weekend.
Again, you can go tohusbandmaterial.comslash retreat
to see our upcoming big retreatsand the smaller healing
weekends.
(43:52):
Let's pray, discern, and maybeeven take a redemptive risk to
see what might happen when wecreate space for transformation.
Always remember you are God'sbeloved son.
In you, he is well pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart, and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa, and I'mhere to show you how.
Let's go.
Hey, my name is Drew Boa.
(00:20):
I'm the founder of HusbandMaterial, where I help men
outgrow porn.
Today we are talking aboutpsychodrama, a powerful approach
to healing trauma, getting freein many areas of life, and
something that I have learnedfrom my dear friend, Dr.
Doug Carpenter, and his uniqueapproach, which we are calling
direct.
Today you're going to hear aboutthe direct approach to
(00:43):
psychodrama, why it's unique anddifferent from some of the other
organizations that do similarwork, and what we do at Husband
Material Healing Weekends.
These are intimate, intense, andamazing four-day weekends for a
(01:03):
maximum of eight participants ata time.
These healing weekends fill up.
Our upcoming one in Utah is nowfull, but the one in Florida has
some spots available evenfarther into the future.
If you go tohusbandmaterial.com/slash
retreat, you'll see our nextlarger retreats and smaller
healing weekends.
We would love to see you there.
Doug is kind of like the guruwho has been training me and our
(01:26):
coaches in how to do this work,and I can think of no one better
than him to be able to unpackwhat happens when we create
space for transformation.
Enjoy the episode.
Welcome to Husband Material.
We get to spend even more timewith Dr.
Doug Carpenter.
Welcome back.
SPEAKER_00 (01:45):
Thank you.
It's always great to be back.
Especially about such anexciting topic that we're going
to talk about today.
Something that I just love.
SPEAKER_02 (01:52):
We are talking about the unique approach that Husband
Material uses for embodiedhealing processes.
We sometimes call itpsychodrama, that Doug has
developed.
In 2021, at the very firsthusband material retreat, first
time I ever met Doug Carpenterin person, I invited Doug to
(02:14):
lead a breakout session, and Ididn't know what I was in for.
He did something I had neverseen.
It was incredibly powerful.
I had no words for it.
And now I know that I was seeingpsychodrama.
Doug, what is psychodrama?
SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
Well, it's it's a way to embody your internal
experience in an outward way.
So I think I've said this on thepodcast when we've talked about
this before, but psychodramacame out of Italy, a man named
Jay Marino, where he waswatching a group of kids play on
a playground and just reallyrealized they're acting out
(02:54):
their traumas and they'reresolving stuff through their
play.
How could I get adults to dothis?
And so then he started havinggroups where people would come
and he would walk them throughin a very attuned way how to
work out some of the traumasthat they were dealing with.
And it just showed tremendousresults.
(03:15):
So that's what we do inpsychodrama.
We take either an experiencethat you've had, a situation
that you've had, an emotion thatyou're having, a part of you
that is experiencing something,and we embody it.
We act it out, we turn it intolife and have an interplay and
an interchange around it.
SPEAKER_02 (03:37):
And if you're still having trouble imagining this,
one of the most common featuresof psychodrama is role-playing.
So you could be in a group wheresomebody's playing your dad or
your mom or your anger, yourfear.
We could have someone playingthe role of Jesus.
You could have someone playingyour inner child, and it all
(04:00):
organically develops intosomething that gets to the core
of exactly what we're dealingwith.
SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
And healing can often come in surprising ways.
Very surprising ways.
Once you embody something andstart to act it out, it taps
into a deep layer of emotionthat you may not even be aware
of.
It's a very what we call acathartic experience.
Something begins to shift insideof you and you begin to
(04:32):
experience this in all in awhole new way.
And sometimes we need to go backand revisit things and
experience those feelings.
But the ultimate goal then is tore-experience them in a way this
time that has a differentoutcome for you, and that you're
witnessed and attuned to andseen and cared for.
(04:53):
So you can have a differentresolution.
And that cathartic process iswhat brings the healing in the
situation.
SPEAKER_02 (05:02):
You've described it as undoing and redoing.
SPEAKER_00 (05:06):
Absolutely.
Those are two great words.
You go back, you create thescenario, you undo it, tear it
apart, analyze it, and then weoften redo it in a way that you
would like to have had theoutcome turn out, or experience
a shift in feelings that youneeded to happen back there,
(05:27):
that then ultimately leads tohealing.
SPEAKER_02 (05:30):
And it can also be focused on the present,
something you're in the middleof right now that's overwhelming
or difficult, or it could besomething in the future that you
are dreading, or that you needto start processing before it
happens.
SPEAKER_00 (05:47):
Or do rehearsal for.
How am I going to feel when I dothis, when this happens?
And so we walk through it as ifit were happening.
And your body can, your body,your mind, your emotions can
begin to adjust and wrap itselfaround the experience in
preparation for you to havethat.
SPEAKER_02 (06:07):
So past, present, future, emotional, relational,
sexual, physical, all of it canbe involved in a psychodrama
process.
Why is psychodrama so powerfulfor men outgrowing porn?
SPEAKER_00 (06:23):
Well, because it opens you up to vulnerability
and expression, expression ofyour emotion, and that you can
experience, you can embody it,you can experience it, you can
bring it outside of yourself.
You can hear it, you can see it,you can attune to it, you can
have others reciprocate allthose things to you because so
(06:46):
many times men who are facingstruggles have never felt
witnessed or seen or heard.
And this provides all thoseopportunities.
SPEAKER_02 (06:56):
Such a breakthrough into vulnerability, community,
empowerment, expression, andalso deep processing.
Porn gets its power fromunprocessed experiences.
And the more we process thoseexperiences, especially the ones
that we're sexualizing throughporn, the less power it has over
(07:20):
us.
It's not like I'm never going tobe tempted again, but it doesn't
have the same pull.
And when I can see it moreclearly, when I can relate to
myself and others differently init, wow.
SPEAKER_00 (07:32):
It's hard to describe the difference.
It is.
And so many men turn to porn asa coping skill.
Porn is not the problem, it'sthe coping skill that they've
developed for an underlyingconflict and dynamic that needs
to be worked out.
It's a deeper emotional woundthat needs to be worked through,
that is just manifesting ormasking with porn as a behavior
(07:56):
to cope.
And psychodrama helps get tothose underlying conflicts that
are really at the core of whoyou are and that's just causing
you to get off track.
SPEAKER_02 (08:09):
And when you think about our traumas or our
conflicts or the places in ourlife where we feel stuck.
Our survival instincts are moreconnected to this.
(08:33):
I often say it's not the mature,adult, logical, rational you
that is stuck in porn.
Right.
It's a younger, more emotional,more vulnerable, wounded part of
you.
SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
Well, oftentimes in the psychodrama, we take you
back to that.
When did you fight, flight,freeze, fawn, flop?
You know, we take you back tothat experience and what was
going on, and have someoneattuned to you in that moment
and help you through thatexperience.
SPEAKER_02 (09:10):
Could be the experience of being all alone as
a kid, could be the experienceof encountering porn for the
first time, could be sexualabuse or early sexual awakening
where you felt fear and shameand disconnection.
Oftentimes, our psychodramaprocesses engage with the inner
(09:32):
child in some way, but in everysingle case, it's embodied,
which is huge because porn takesus out of our bodies.
It's a way to escape from ourstories and our feelings.
Psychodrama, you get into yourstory and your feelings, and we
let what's inside come out in acathartic way, in a safe
(09:53):
container.
And that's so important becauseoftentimes the only place where
we feel like we can let out someof these feelings is through a
secret sexual outlet rather thanin real life letting things be
seen, known, and healed.
SPEAKER_00 (10:12):
You mentioned the whole inner child work.
And I was just sitting herethinking about one of the most
powerful processes that you andI have ever done together, I
think, is where a man went in toa doctor's office and rescued
his inner child from some traumathat was happening.
And that was just so powerful.
By going in and rescuing hisinner child from that terrible
(10:35):
situation, he gained so muchpower back from being able to do
that.
And it's just such a beautifulthing to watch that healing
occur in the moment.
SPEAKER_02 (10:50):
Because in that doctor's office, he felt
powerless.
And I was actually playing hisinner child.
SPEAKER_00 (10:58):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (10:59):
And I'll never forget.
We were both weeping andsobbing, and and and he picked
me up and carried me out andbrought me back into his life
today.
SPEAKER_00 (11:12):
And that caused such a huge shift in his feelings and
self-concept, and the part ofhim that needed to be brought to
a place of healing.
SPEAKER_02 (11:24):
That little boy was stuck back there.
And there was a very clearbefore and after story.
And it's not like some kind ofarrival, but it is an amazing
amount of progress that canhappen in a very short amount of
time.
Yes.
And there are different men'sexperiential weekends where you
(11:44):
can experience psychodrama.
While learning from you, Doug, Ieventually realized that you do
it differently.
And over the past two years,I've been formulating a theory
about what makes Doug's approachunique and coded it as the
(12:08):
direct approach, D-I-R-E-C-T.
And we're gonna go through eachletter of direct to describe how
it works.
Doug, what makes what you dodifferent than some of these
other organizations?
SPEAKER_00 (12:24):
Okay.
And I do lots of psychodramawith these other organizations,
but oftentimes their process canat times be very structured.
There are certain steps that youfollow.
A lot of times you only have 30to 45 minutes to do the process.
Where in the approach that youand I have worked on, we have
(12:46):
retreats where people have twoto two and a half hours apiece
to work through this.
So the level and the depth thatwe can get into in the
psychodrama is much, much deeperand can be way more powerful
than if you just have a shorteramount of time.
Even though I have seenbeautiful, beautiful things
(13:08):
happen in 30 to 45 minutes.
SPEAKER_02 (13:11):
So we don't want to discount or discredit those
experiences because they areabsolutely divine,
transformational, and amazing.
And we really see the need tospend more time on this,
partially because everybody inthe group is also experiencing
(13:32):
something at a deep level.
And rather than just move on tothe next person and go to his
process, we want to allow eachperson to fully share and
receive what they got out ofanother man's work.
SPEAKER_00 (13:50):
Yes.
So we take the process and kindof put it on steroids.
I guess a way I want to saythis.
And it's funny because when Ifirst learned how to do
psychodrama, I learned it from aman when we were in a running
groups in an addiction treatmentcenter.
So I didn't learn a realstructured way to do this.
I learned a very creative way todo this.
(14:13):
And so I've always operatedhighly in the creativity part of
this.
And then when I got out there inthe other in the world and found
more people who were doing thisand they were doing it in a much
more structured way, I was like,oh, that's really odd to me
because I'm used to having allthis space and free-flowing
energy and creativity.
And so I've tried to mix thosetwo worlds.
(14:36):
I try to have some structure,but mostly create a space where
we can use creativity and doanything that needs to be done
in the setting.
Like the D that we have in thedirector project is called
dynamic.
And we have it called dynamicfor for lots of reasons.
We can focus on anything,anything, any part of you that
(15:01):
that is coming up and ispresent.
We don't have really anyconstraints.
We can use a very dynamicformat.
Well, we have some constraints.
Yeah, but what I mean by that islike we've done psychodrama in
the pool, we've done psychodramain the parking lot of a
pharmacy, we've done so whateverneeds to happen in that moment,
(15:24):
we will do our best to recreatethe situation for you to truly
have a cathartic experience.
It becomes extremely dynamic.
We're not structured to pointthe point where there has to be
a certain setting, a certaintime, it has to progress a
certain way.
I remember one time Drew wasvery got very tied up by someone
(15:44):
who was wanted to bound thecharacter that he was playing,
and they drag him outside of thehouse.
SPEAKER_02 (15:50):
Yeah.
So I tend to be very good atplaying evil or the inner
critic, the voice of accusationor condemnation.
Yes, which is a very dark roleand yet often very powerful for
(16:10):
the man doing his work to talkback to that voice and even to
defeat evil.
Over conquer.
Yeah.
So if a man experiences a lot ofself-hatred or he's disgusted
with himself or something he'sdone, if he feels like the voice
(16:33):
of the enemy is whispering inhis ear, we can create an
embodied process to be able towork with that.
SPEAKER_00 (16:42):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (16:44):
While it is very dynamic, we do have some
boundaries.
For example, we're always goingto be closed.
SPEAKER_00 (16:52):
Well, for example, we had a person who had a trauma
during a swim class.
So we all got our swimmingtrunks on, we all got out in the
pool and we recreated thatscenario for this man to work
through the situation.
And the pool was the rightsetting for this to happen.
So we tailor make it to beappropriate.
SPEAKER_02 (17:15):
We turned a kitchen counter into a bar scene where a
man got to have the conversationwith his father that he wished
he would have had and never got.
SPEAKER_00 (17:29):
And that's the creativity part of this.
We we can keep it so dynamic andso open, you know, that it is
truly a science and an art.
But there's a lot of art hereand a lot of creativity to turn
your setting into whatever weneed it to be.
SPEAKER_02 (17:48):
It's an adventure into the unknown.
Everything is constantlyevolving, and yet we're not
making things up either.
Everything we do is based onwhat is being said or shared.
SPEAKER_00 (18:03):
You're right.
That's the I and the direct, isthe intuitive part.
Drew and I will intently attuneand listen to the person, their
story, the emotions that arecoming, the nonverbal cues that
we're seeing from a person, andwe'll read those and we'll check
in with them and we'll draw thatout as much as we can to bring
(18:26):
it to life.
It's a very intuitive process.
We are very focused on you andyour experience.
And that's why it can go in anypossible direction.
SPEAKER_02 (18:40):
So we're never going to introduce something and say,
now you have to follow theseinstructions.
Rather, we are going to followthe man doing his work in what
he's talking about and check into see if something resonates.
(19:02):
If we have an idea or apotential direction for where
this process could go, it'snever imposed, it's always
proposed, it's always asuggestion.
And if my grand big idea was notfeeling safe for the person or
(19:26):
not feeling like what he needs,then we throw it out the window.
SPEAKER_00 (19:30):
We don't do something that's prescribed.
What we often do is if if you'reexperiencing anger in the
moment, we will stop and ask youwhat needs to happen with this
anger.
What does he need to do?
How does he need to expresshimself?
What do you want to happen withthis?
And we completely follow yourlead.
SPEAKER_02 (19:54):
It may be that there would be a lot of healing in
expressing that anger throughhitting a punching bag, for
example.
Sorry, I just started laughing.
We even had somebody burn thebook, I Kiss Dating Goodbye, as
a way of breaking up with purityculture.
SPEAKER_00 (20:15):
Yes.
So I was aware this man was verytraumatized by this book.
He had shared that with us.
He had let us know that talkingabout that book was probably
going to be part of his process.
So before the weekend everstarted, I went and bought the
book and I hid it in the house.
So during his process, Iinadvertently had him find this
(20:37):
book, and then he was able todestroy the book.
We went out to the fire pit andhe ripped it up and was able to
burn it and really sever hisunhealthy connection with purity
culture through this.
SPEAKER_02 (20:52):
Yeah, it was beautiful.
SPEAKER_00 (20:54):
Beautiful.
SPEAKER_02 (20:54):
And that was just one part of his process.
But the point is that's whatfelt intuitive to him.
SPEAKER_00 (21:02):
Yes.
SPEAKER_02 (21:02):
So when we say it's intuitive, yes, the facilitators
are using our intuition, butreally we're trusting the
intuition of the man himself asour primary guide.
That's really important becauseit's not like we're leading the
way and saying, follow me, dothis.
It's like, no, the client leadsthe way.
SPEAKER_00 (21:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (21:23):
And we're coming with you.
SPEAKER_00 (21:25):
Just like in anger, we need to find out from you.
Does this anger need to beexpressed?
Or do you need love or Jesus orsomething, someone to come in
and sit with your anger to calmit and soothe it?
I can't prescribe that for you.
I have to figure out what youneed.
And it's my job to then helpfacilitate that happening for
(21:47):
you through my use of knowledgeand creativity.
SPEAKER_02 (21:51):
This is never an investigation with a diagnosis.
SPEAKER_00 (21:55):
No.
SPEAKER_02 (21:56):
This is always attuning, checking in, and
seeing what resonates.
Sometimes we have to get towhat's underneath the anger,
which could be sadness or shameor feeling completely alone.
One time we had a trial processwhere Doug was the attorney,
(22:23):
which you're a really goodattorney, by the way.
SPEAKER_00 (22:28):
We put his abusers on trial.
SPEAKER_02 (22:31):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (22:31):
Right.
And his bullies.
SPEAKER_02 (22:33):
And his bullies, yes.
And we asked the man, what doyou want to happen here?
And he took the charges againsthis bullies, he tore them to
shreds, and he said, I forgiveyou.
And that's what he needed to doin the moment.
SPEAKER_00 (22:51):
It was a beautiful release of years of pent-up hurt
and energy.
unknown (22:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:58):
I think it shocked you and I.
I don't think you and I wereprepared for him to say that.
We were expecting, okay, now thebullies are going to fully be
punished for their behavior.
And then he offered themforgiveness, and it's it just
totally changed the entireperspective and what was
happening in the psychodrama.
But it was the most beautifulthing that needed to happen.
SPEAKER_02 (23:19):
And that's why the letter R indirect stands for
redemptive.
These experiences are meant toredeem incomplete experiences.
And we don't necessarily knowhow that's going to happen, but
we try to stay sensitive to thenudges from the Holy Spirit or
(23:41):
the ways that the man's originstory might reach a new
conclusion.
And that experience of forgivinghis bullies was a great example.
SPEAKER_00 (23:54):
Yeah.
And the redemptive part, so manytimes we invite Jesus or God,
who what whatever deity personyou need to come and be along
with you and help you see thathe was there all along with you.
And that can be such aredemptive, emotionally changing
(24:16):
process to bring in thespiritual component during the
redemptive stage.
SPEAKER_02 (24:22):
I remember there was a process where a man was
carrying a lot of shame aboutone of his eyes.
And I remember that I wassitting across from him and he
he was not ready to look into myeyes.
And I felt the presence of Jesusin me prompting me to see if it
(24:48):
would be okay for me to touchhis eyelids.
And when that happened, it waslike Jesus touching the eyes of
a man who was blind.
And eventually he looked up andthe tears were streaming down
his cheeks.
And that was another inner childrescue process, but then Jesus
(25:11):
showed up.
SPEAKER_00 (25:14):
So beautiful and powerful.
I mean, some of the some of themost extraordinary moments of my
career have been in thesemoments of doing this process
with Drew and with the men thatwe work with.
Just to see the transformationthis approach can make in
people's lives is phenomenal.
SPEAKER_02 (25:36):
Oftentimes we'll end a process by singing a worship
song that relates to the theme,and it hits such a deep place in
our souls.
That's part of the redemptivepiece of this, and why we see
God working throughout, and wetry to create space to invite
(26:00):
him into the process as much aspossible.
SPEAKER_00 (26:03):
Very much.
And sometimes we'll often end inprayer as well.
Maybe not just a worship song,but prayer or prayer for this
person to move into a new place,a new realm, a new emotional
space of health.
And it's it's just been sopowerful.
SPEAKER_02 (26:23):
And oftentimes in our healing weekends, we will
end with a journaling processwhere you're not just writing a
prayer to God, you're actuallygetting an impression of what
Jesus might be saying to you.
That's the redemptive piece.
The E indirect stands forembodied.
Now, this is already obvious atsome level, but then Doug, you
(26:49):
take it to the next levelbecause we are always looking
for ways to make each process asphysical as possible.
SPEAKER_00 (26:58):
Absolutely.
Like you when somebody takes ona role, we put them in that
role.
Like we have lots of props thatwe use, colors of cloth, we turn
emotions into colors andsurround people with that color.
We truly try to embody and bringthe role to life so the person
(27:22):
can truly experience it outsideof themselves.
SPEAKER_02 (27:26):
For example, we had a man do a process with his
inner infant, his baby self.
So having a baby doll in theroom to represent that for him
(27:47):
took it much deeper.
I don't know if we could havegotten to that point without
some kind of physicalrepresentation.
SPEAKER_00 (27:57):
Right.
And another one that comes tomind for me, there was a
situation where somebody hadexperienced a trauma in a
building that was just beingbuilt where the studs were
around.
And we took the bar stools andturned them upside down that
surrounded him as if there werethese two by fours all around
him.
And it became so realistic.
Like we turn our environmentupside down when we're doing
(28:20):
this.
We'll use any piece offurniture, any, any, anything we
can get our hands on to recreatethe experience.
And it just becomes so powerful.
SPEAKER_01 (28:30):
Couches, tables.
It could look like a disasterzone.
SPEAKER_00 (28:35):
Yes.
Sometimes we have to completelyput the environment back
together.
We have some of these weekendsat my home in Florida.
And so I have to warn theneighbors, hey, I'm having a
guy's retreat this weekend.
So you gotta be, you know, younever know what you might see or
might be happening.
And so they're kind of like, oh,you're having another one of
those weekends things, right?
I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, weare.
(28:57):
So, you know, just kind ofignore us.
You're probably gonna see somestrange stuff.
SPEAKER_02 (29:01):
You might hear some loud profanity.
SPEAKER_00 (29:03):
You may hear some loud yelling.
You never know what's gonnahappen.
But yeah, sometimes after aprocess, we have to completely
put the room back togetherbecause we have just totally
transformed it into whateverspace the person needs and been
able to do whatever action needsto happen.
SPEAKER_02 (29:23):
Yes.
And many of you have heard metalk about the power of
particularity.
I want to give an example ofthat.
I did a process where I wasworking through my undiagnosed
ADHD as a kid and how I would beconstantly losing things like my
backpack, my phone, clothing,keys, school books.
(29:48):
And so when I started myprocess, I closed my eyes and
asked people to go and get thoseobjects and put them in front of
me.
And when they did, this gutturalgroan and wail came up within
(30:09):
me.
Just the unbelievablefrustration I had in wanting to
remember, wanting to keep trackof these things, wanting to do
what my parents asked me to do,and just feeling utterly unable
to do it.
And in my mind, those backpacksand school supplies and
everything were huge.
They were like buildings aboveme, and I was so small.
(30:31):
And then when I opened my eyes,I saw that how small they truly
were.
And something shifted.
And that was just the beginningof my process.
But it's an example of how whenwe get physical items or people
who have for certain physicaltraits, sometimes it makes it
(30:55):
more real than if you were justdoing this work internally in a
one-on-one session.
SPEAKER_00 (31:01):
Absolutely.
And the power of having otherpeople involved.
And we'll get to the this nextone.
The C in direct is communal.
And the communal part is weinvolve so many people.
Like you have your process asthe protagonist, but then you
ask other group members to playthe parts in your story.
(31:21):
And they take on differentroles.
And it's so powerful sometimeswhat you can experience when you
take on a role for someone intheir process and the stuff that
it will bring up inside of you.
And then how much it helps theperson who's the protagonist to
have you there playing that rolefor them.
(31:45):
Everybody gets involved.
And even if you're not chosenfor a role, the whole event is
so captivating that it's hardfor you not to get something out
of everyone's process.
So we usually do this with eightguys, like at least two hours
apiece.
So that's what 16 hours oftherapy.
(32:08):
I mean, for yourself, eventhough you're not the one in the
hot seat the whole time, but yougain so much from just being
involved and present.
SPEAKER_02 (32:18):
You gain empathy, you gain friendships, you gain
an awareness of the power of Godas you witness how He's working.
It's been so encouraging to me.
It's been so confirming of like,I'm not just making this whole
Christianity thing up becauselike, look what Jesus is doing
(32:41):
right now.
SPEAKER_00 (32:42):
Right.
And the deep friendships thatI've seen develop between men
who've gone through thesehealing weekends together is
just astounding.
Men truly have relationships andfriends and a group of men that
they can relate to like they'venever experienced.
SPEAKER_02 (33:02):
I've led a lot of online groups.
And occasionally, friendships inthose online groups will
continue or they'll keepmeeting.
The level of continuity I'veseen after these healing
weekends, where we do the directapproach, psychodrama for four
days, has been phenomenal.
(33:23):
Most of the time, these guyskeep in touch and we'll see each
other again and pick up fromwhere we left off.
So that's why the see indirectis so important, communal.
It's not just one man doing hiswork, it's really everybody
(33:43):
working together as a team.
We leave no man behind in eachprocess.
And before and after eachprocess, we always check in with
everybody because stuff willcome up that we might skip over
if we were only doing 30 to 45minutes per person.
You know, okay, we got to get tothe next guy, we got to get
(34:04):
through everybody.
It's like, no, we have time andspace to slow down and let each
man fully share and receive whathe needs.
That's huge.
And then another piece of thecommunal aspect of this that
that's heightened in the way wedo it is giving each man in the
group more of a role to play.
(34:28):
Because it's not as controlled,yeah, there's maybe some more
risk involved of somebody sayingthe wrong thing or doing
something that doesn't resonate.
But it's not just the leaderswho are guiding this.
We're saying, hey, if you guyshave an idea, come and whisper
it in our ear and maybe we'll doit.
SPEAKER_00 (34:47):
Yeah.
If you're picking up on anemotion or a feeling or
something that we're not seeing,or even when you're playing a
role, if something's coming upfor you in relation to this
person and how you bring thatout, like we welcome all that.
We welcome group participation.
SPEAKER_02 (35:06):
We're co-creating it together.
And oftentimes participants, notjust leaders, will have a
breakthrough inspiration, orthey'll know just the right
thing to say, even though wedidn't tell them to say it.
SPEAKER_00 (35:21):
Yeah.
And part of the beauty of this,too, is that you have two
skilled facilitators.
Like Drew and I are both very,very, very creative people, and
we work well off of each otherand we have great intuition for
one another and what we'rethinking and seeing.
(35:43):
And, you know, together we'repretty a pretty dynamic duo.
And I love working with him, buttogether, we can keep the energy
level up, we can keep theattunement up.
You know, you've got such anadvantage of having both of us
there together, and then all theother members playing into it as
(36:04):
well.
It just becomes so powerful.
SPEAKER_02 (36:08):
So, in this approach, we need at least two
facilitators in the healingweekends we have planned for
2026.
There will be threefacilitators, and that also
allows us to step aside withgroup member who might be
especially triggered and whoneeds more support because this
process was too much for them.
There's so much time, so muchspace, so much support involved.
(36:33):
We don't control what happens.
We don't try to lead it toward aspecific outcome, but we trust
that there will betransformation.
And that's the last letter ofdirect.
SPEAKER_00 (36:45):
Yeah, a transformation needs to come at
the level that you're ready forit to happen, not what we're
ready for it.
Because I may still be able tosee three more steps ahead of
you of what needs to happen.
But I've had people in apsychodrama get to the point
where they say, I'm done.
I've got what I needed.
Like this is this is where Ineed to stop right now.
(37:06):
I need to absorb this.
And that's perfectly fine.
That's wonderful.
So transformation comes at yourreadiness, not something we're
pushing you to do.
SPEAKER_02 (37:19):
And we recognize that we don't create the
transformation, we create thespace.
God is the one who transforms,and we entrust the whole process
to him.
SPEAKER_00 (37:31):
And we try to take something from the experience
for you to really anchor.
We call it the anchor.
And this happens in guts workand other other types of doing
this as well.
But we try to anchor it likewhat can you hang on to?
What can you take away fromhere?
What's a statement, a phrase, anew mantra, a symbol of
(37:52):
something that you can reallyhang on to and stay with you as
an anchor to carry with youforward to remind you of the
transformation that's happened.
SPEAKER_02 (38:02):
And that's something that I learned from Roy Wooten.
Doug, I know you've learned alot from Rich Weiler, and there
are other people like MattWinger, Andrew Bauman, who have
helped me get into this.
The direct approach is notnecessarily totally new, but I
do think it's a really uniqueevolution of this work that is
(38:28):
more dynamic, more intuitive,redemptive, embodied, more fully
communal and transformative.
So if you want to experiencethis with Doug and I and some of
our other leaders, we want toinvite you to apply for an
upcoming Husband MaterialHealing Weekend.
You can do that athusbandmaterial.comslash retreat
(38:51):
and see all of our retreatscoming up and the healing
weekends.
How are retreats different fromhealing weekends?
Well, retreats have a muchlarger group, say 100
participants and 20 staff.
A healing weekend has a maximumof eight participants with three
staff and one cook.
(39:11):
So 12 total under one roof,eating all of our meals
together, playing together,connecting and checking in in
between these intense processes.
So it's a much more intimate,personal, and open-ended
experience that has beenabsolutely profound to witness.
(39:34):
The healing weekend we havecoming up in Utah is now full,
but the one in Florida in lateJanuary still has some spots
available.
If you're listening to thismonths or years into the future,
we are doing these regularly andwould love to see if you might
be a good fit.
This is a next level experiencefor men who have already done
(39:57):
some work within husbandmaterial.
It's not something we want youto jump into if you've never
done HMA or joined a privategroup or been to a retreat.
Because of the intensity andbecause of the unique approach,
we want to make sure it's a goodfit.
And the way to do that first isby coming to some of our other
opportunities within HusbandMaterial and seeing if you want
(40:21):
to go to the next level, inwhich case we invite you to
apply.
And you can do that at the linkin the show notes.
One of the most common reactionsI hear from men who hear about
this work and they'reconsidering if they might want
to do it is that they feelintimidated.
It's scary to consider whatmight happen if I open myself up
(40:44):
to this kind of experience.
I want to reassure you that inevery man's process, including
yours, you have a voice and achoice.
And we trust you when you sayyou need something different.
(41:05):
If there is one word thatcaptures what I've learned from
Doug, it is attune, attune,attune.
More attunement, moreattunement, more attunement,
which means at every point we'relistening to you.
(41:25):
We're following your lead.
We're staying with you.
We're not leaving you alone.
This is never gonna go to aplace where you are forced to do
something.
Rather, we're surrounding youwith the relational support and
(41:49):
sensitivity that you might needto face some of the most
challenging fears and places ofshame that you might not ever
otherwise be able to access.
And when we go there, we alsotrust that Jesus is with us, and
as we enter into a kind ofcrucifixion, that there will be
(42:14):
resurrection, even beyond whatwe can imagine.
Doug, what is your favoritething about psychodrama using
the direct approach?
SPEAKER_00 (42:26):
Oh, that's a big question.
It's gotta be the transformationstage to just see a person from
start to finish and then wherethey're at at the end.
You watch healing happen rightin front of your eyes.
And it's it's it's somethingthat's unexplainable.
(42:49):
It is just a transformation thathappens before your eyes, and it
is truly the most phenomenalthing I can witness.
And it's the moments that I livefor in doing men's work, is for
these transformative momentsthat I see happen through the
(43:09):
work that we do.
Miracles, miracles.
SPEAKER_02 (43:14):
Sometimes a man looks younger or you can just
see the freedom, the relief therelief of the burden.
SPEAKER_00 (43:24):
Yes, and just their whole countenance of being
unburdened is just astounding.
SPEAKER_02 (43:32):
So it's hard to describe, but you have to
experience it.
And we would love to see if itmight be a good fit to have you
at an upcoming healing weekend.
Again, you can go tohusbandmaterial.comslash retreat
to see our upcoming big retreatsand the smaller healing
weekends.
(43:52):
Let's pray, discern, and maybeeven take a redemptive risk to
see what might happen when wecreate space for transformation.
Always remember you are God'sbeloved son.
In you, he is well pleased.
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