August 18, 2025 • 37 mins
How did Marco Casanova go from addiction to gay porn while studying to be a Catholic priest to a life of chastity, healing, marriage, and fatherhood? This is a great story. Along the way, you'll get a beautiful introduction to Pope John Paul II's Theology of the Body—particularly what Marco has learned about the dignity of women and what it means to be a man.
Marco Casanova, M.Div., serves as Associate Director of Desert Stream Ministries. His journey with the Living Waters program began during his seminary years, when he sought healing from his own experience of sexual brokenness. After eight years in priestly formation, Marco discerned a new call to join the Desert Stream team. Today, he oversees Living Waters USA, equipping lay leaders to establish and lead effective healing groups within their church communities. Marco lives in Kansas City, MO, with his wife, Ania, and their daughter, Marianna.
More from Desert Stream Ministries:
- Website: desertstream.org
- YouTube: youtube.com/@DesertStreamMinistries
More on Theology of the Body:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Thank you so much for listeningto this awesome interview with
(00:22):
Marco Casanova, who is theAssociate Director of Desert
Stream Ministries, where heoversees the Living Waters
program that changed his life.
Marco has such a cool story thatincludes sexual attraction to
other men, gay porn, eight and ahalf years of Catholic priestly
formation and also gettingmarried and, more recently,
becoming a father, experiencingincredible healing and
(00:44):
transformation, especiallythrough the work of John Paul II
and Theology of the Body, whichyou are going to hear more
about, and how it inspired andchallenged him to start engaging
with women and appreciatingwomen in a healthy way.
There's so much rich insighthere.
I think a lot of you guys aregoing to resonate and delight in
what Marco has to say.
Enjoy the episode Today.
I am delighted to introduce youall to Marco Casanova.
(01:07):
Welcome to the show.
Thanks, drew.
Thanks for having me.
Man, I am super excited forpeople to hear more of your
personal story.
Where did your sexual formationbegin?
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I really encountered Jesus in a powerful way when I
was studying to be a Catholicpriest.
I feel like I really wasn't aChristian in many ways.
Of course us Catholics webelieve that we're Christian at
infant baptism.
But you know, for all intentsand purposes I really wasn't
saved in the area of mysexuality, which I would say, if
(01:42):
you're entering the seminaryyou definitely want to be a
Christian prior.
But five years in I really hadan intense encounter with Jesus,
especially in this strugglewith same-sex attraction.
At this point in my seminarycareer I had acted out
homosexually outside of theseminary community, had a pretty
big addiction to pornographygay porn in particular and so it
(02:04):
really was a turning point forme and from that point on I
started to understand a littlebit more about who I was as a
man made in God's image.
But I really felt like I wasn'tvery integrated.
I wasn't committing mortal sins, so to speak, but I still was
disintegrated, especially in myview, not only of myself among
(02:26):
men but also my view of woman.
I wasn't very chaste, as wewould say in the Catholic world,
which I can kind of unpack that.
I think it's a great word.
It sounds archaic and maybe alittle scary.
It's probably, I think, the bestgoal for this kind of work is
chastity, and for variousreasons.
First, chastity is a subset oftemperance, which is a cardinal
(02:48):
virtue.
And I only say that because thecardinal virtues there's four
are so important in that thevery nature of a cardinal virtue
is that you become more humanwhen you exercise them.
So the idea of becoming morechaste is really the idea about
becoming more yourself, sexuallyspeaking body, soul and spirit.
And then, secondly, a virtue isthat which is activated in the
(03:15):
will.
So it's something thatinherently involves my will
operative.
And so it's not like thehemorrhaging woman who just kind
of touches the cloak of Jesusand then I'm healed of porn
addiction.
It's actually I have toexercise something of my agency
as an image bearer of this God.
And so chastity is really.
(03:38):
It's like how chaste do youwant to become?
And if you want to becomereally chaste, then you got to,
will it?
Of course we're not Pelagian,it's Jesus working in us, but it
is all about exercising ourwill.
So, anyway, after this crazyrevelation I had, I started to
(03:58):
become more chaste, but I wasstill rather unchaste in that.
I'll try to simplify this, drew, because it is a little layered
.
As a person studying to be aCatholic priest, I was really
discerning the idea of becominga celibate for the kingdom of
God.
But Pope St John Paul II whichI think we'll probably get into
a little bit more in his idea oftheology of the body he's so
clear about celibacy is not justa hiding place, or it's not a
(04:21):
hiding place at all hiding place, or it's not a hiding place at
all.
So, like a lot of us will say,oh, I'm struggling with same-sex
attraction.
So therefore, based on myexperience of SSA, I'm just
going to be a celibate.
And John Paul II would say,well, not necessarily.
You know, like, being a celibatefor the kingdom of God is all
about being fully identifiedwith Jesus and his kingdom
(04:43):
purposes, about being fullyidentified with Jesus and his
kingdom purposes.
It's not solely based on, oh, Ican't get married because I'm
disqualified from that.
It really.
John Paul II would say no, wegot to look deeper at this and
you got to really challengeyourself with the hard questions
.
So I did, and it was reallythrough Living Waters and the
work that I do that I came toask those difficult questions
(05:04):
and I was able to take moresteps and I'm that I came to ask
those difficult questions and Iwas able to take more steps,
and I'm taking more steps in mychastity.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Especially when it comes to sexuality.
What was it like for you as aboy growing up?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
As a kid growing up with SSA, that was a tension for
sure.
I mean, I grew up in aMexican-American household.
My parents are wonderful, butit wasn't necessarily a
conversation that we would haveabout that, and I think being
able to recognize that in myadult life has been really
helpful for me and my wholefamily, honestly.
(05:40):
So don't underestimate thepower of divine mercy for your
life and your sexy sins, forexample, but it actually may
open up a real faucet of theblood and water for your whole
family, and that's what I reallyhave come to experience.
I'll give you an example, drew.
I really do believe my same-sexattraction is emblematic of a
(06:02):
kind of father wound.
I know people scoff at that andI don't want to put people in
boxes as if that is theone-size-fits-all of people with
SSA, but for me it certainlywas, and so my lack of advocacy
that I experienced from my daddid contribute to my lack of
security in myself as a boy andas a boy among boys my lack of
(06:27):
security in myself as a boy andas a boy among boys.
And what I quickly realizedwhen I came into the healing
journey through Living Waterswas that I did need to do some
work of actually feeling thatwound.
You know like actually feelingthe pain of that and the loss of
that.
You know it's not like I can goback in time with my dad and he
can fill in those gaps.
It's honestly, thosedevelopmental stages are so
(06:50):
pivotal but they're missed.
If they're missed and of coursethe Holy Spirit can come and do
a mighty work but there is akind of wound that's left there.
I did feel like in my healingjourney I came to forgive my dad
in a way and I wasn't able tomove on past it.
(07:14):
If I wasn't able to forgive Hislack of advocacy for me, I did
see it as a kind of injury andbecause of that I think I judged
him for it and I judged him fora long time.
I felt like he wasn't giving mewhat I needed and because of
that I really I kind of detachedfrom him.
(07:34):
And it wasn't until I was ableto really forgive him I was able
to kind of step into what itmeans to be a husband and now a
father.
I remember when I wanted to tellmy dad all of this, because I
was processing this and I'm likeI should really tell my dad and
we don't necessarily have thesedeep conversations in the
Casanova household.
We have good conversations, butwe're not so therapeuticized.
(07:57):
My dad's not like thank you forsharing, and so it is what it
is and I love them and I don'twant them to.
And so it's like it is what itis and I love them and I don't
want them to be therapeuticized,but what you get is what you
get.
And so I thought, okay, I'mgoing to tell him, I want to
tell him that I've been doingthis process and I really want
to let him in on that.
And so the time that I could getwith him is when we were going
(08:19):
to the grocery store and we werein the grocery store parking
lot, and so I decided to shareall of this with him and he was
able to recognize it and he wasable to say, yeah, I know, I, I
wasn't there for you and and Irealized that and I'm sorry for
that, and there was somethingabout that that was simple and
in the way that my dad could,which released a kind of healing
(08:41):
for me, and I was able then toto like, appreciate him in a way
that I never have, and and so Ihonestly, there is a kind of
healing I've I've experiencedwith my dad, where I don't judge
, I don't judge him like I did,there really is a gratitude of
being his son.
So in living waters we gothrough it all and without that
(09:04):
forgiveness piece we're justkind of receiving mercy for
ourselves and maybe it'scathartic, but if it actually
doesn't flow from us, I think itactually doesn't do its full
intent and purposes.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
That's really well said, and that flow might take a
while, and that's okay, it maytake years, take a while, and
that's okay.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
It may take years, you know it may take, hopefully.
You know, forgiveness can begiven when you feel it, to the
best that you can, and maybe youhave to forgive over and over
and over again.
It's like great, so be it.
Keep forgiving until you don'thave to forgive anymore.
I mean, that's the power of themercy.
We receive it so as to give it,and the more we give it, the
more we become like Jesus.
I mean the more that we becomelike these little, wounded,
(09:49):
little Jesuses.
You know where our wounds are,open and visible, but yet they
don't have the stench of death.
They're flowing with divinemercy.
Why?
Because we've received it,because we're sinners, and then
we can give it to those who'vewounded us.
So the more we forgive, themore we become like him.
(10:10):
It's a great rhythm to get usedto as a Christian, I think.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
So good.
So you were preparing to be aCatholic priest and then you had
this radical encounter withJesus, this transformation
started experiencing more realchastity, not just hiding as a
(10:34):
celebrate priest.
What happened when you enteredthe Living Waters program?
Speaker 2 (10:39):
So I was a little nervous because, you know,
living Waters, desert Stream, itall sounds very evangelical.
I was a little nervous because,you know, living waters, desert
stream, it all sounds veryevangelical.
And as a as a professionalCatholic, I was like what the
heck am I, what am I doing goingto this evangelical thing, you
know?
And so a good priest friend ofmine was like, yeah, there's
this guy named Andrew Comiskeywho founded this desert stream,
living waters, reality and hereally believes Jesus can
(10:59):
transform people on the level oftheir sexual brokenness.
And I'm like that is awesome,like I'm all about that now, you
know, post conversion and Ineed that.
And so I went to one of theseweek long immersive training
experiences that we still do andI just went for my own personal
healing and it really shiftedsomething in my life.
(11:23):
The best way that I coulddescribe it, Drew, is that it
broke a kind of domination ofhomosexuality in my life, in
that I was able to sort of standupright, able to see a horizon
for my sexual humanity that Inever was able to see before.
And I think that was manythings operative in this week
obviously the power of the HolySpirit, but also the power of
(11:45):
just witness of really messylives, coming to know Jesus and
the process of how do I actuallywork, confusing attractions out
, not only in this body thatI've been given, but among
persons of the same sex inrelationship to the opposite sex
, all of these things which I'mlike, wow, this is incredible.
(12:07):
And to really put a cherry ontop, all of it was threaded with
this John Paul II stuff, and sothat was a surprise to me.
I didn't really expect any kindof catholicity in this week,
but it was as if I was kind ofhome in my denomination.
This John Paul II figure wasleading me, was almost providing
(12:31):
a kind of roadmap for me toreconcile with the good of my
masculine sexuality.
Yeah, messy starting points, nodoubt, but through Redeemer
Jesus, he Jesus can actuallyhelp me make peace with what's
good, true and beautiful aboutbeing a man.
So that week really shifted mylife.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
I love that so much.
We're talking about Pope JohnPaul II and his magisterial work
, Theology of the Body.
For anybody who doesn't knowwhat that is, how would you
explain it?
Speaker 2 (13:06):
So I'm going to take a step back In 1968, the Pope
prior a couple of Popes prior toPope John Paul II was this guy
named Paul VI, and Paul VIinstituted this beautiful
encyclical called Humanae Vitae,on Human Life.
John Paul II, in a way, wantedto expound on this foundational
(13:29):
teaching, and he did so throughthis biblical anthropology,
later called the Theology of theBody.
And what he did is he did thisthrough a series of talks.
So every Wednesday the Popecomes out and he greets
thousands of faithful in thesquare and he gives teachings.
He gives some kind of teachingsand, honestly, when you go as a
pilgrim to Rome and you'rehearing the teachings in Italian
(13:52):
, you're like, oh, this is kindof like maybe a fragmented
series that I barely understand.
But hey, this is great, I'mglad I'm able to see the Pope.
But what Pope John Paul II wasdoing through the years of 1979
to 1984 was he was actuallyteaching the church what it
means to be made in the image ofGod, what it means to be
(14:16):
capable of bearing life, ofsiring life, and how we can
responsibly do that, not just bysaying a big no, but rather
what does it mean to be human,sexually speaking?
And how do I actually takesteps in gaining some ground in
(14:38):
what it means to be a man forwoman and a woman for man?
That's kind of the thesis ofJohn Paul II's theology of the
body.
So, for a very roundabout way,is I think he was expounding on
that 68 document that was sayingno birth control.
A lot of people are saying,well, yeah, I mean, we get it,
but we need more.
And John Paul II in a wayhumanized this teaching by
(15:01):
expounding on what is human lovethrough the lens of the gospels
.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
What were some of the key ideas that really made a
difference for you?
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Oh yeah, I mean I would say first and foremost the
dignity of woman.
I just think that that is justkind of paramount to Pope.
St John Paul II's thinking iswoman, you know, and he
obviously had a great devotionto Mary, the mother of God.
She was the first receptor.
(15:32):
So there was somethingemblematic of her fiat that
every woman, in a way, just byvirtue of her womb and the
nature of her body, that is madefor receptivity.
There's something about herthat actually gives us an
interpretive lens through whichto see the totality of human
sexual love.
(15:53):
So for me that was big why?
Because in my same-sexattraction I wanted to bypass
woman.
I'm like woman, I'm a littleallergic to woman, I'm a little
threatened by her, I'm moredisinterested in her than overly
interested in her, or I want tokeep her not in a romantic.
I never, I never can beromantically involved with a
(16:14):
woman.
I mean, that was kind of myframework and in a way, honestly
, what John Paul II was teachingme is you know that's a little
misogyny, you know there's likea thread of misogyny that you're
cultivating, maybe even throughpious thoughts of oh, you know,
as a same sex attracted man,I'll never be married because
you know, I'm supposed to givemy life to Jesus and John Paul,
(16:37):
ii would say whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa.
You actually haven't looked ather, you actually haven't faced
her, whoever she is.
You know, it doesn't mean thatmarriage is the end of every
story, but it's to say, ifyou're going to become a man,
you actually have to face whoyou are to her.
And so that rocked my world,man.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Wow, I've heard people say only a man can make a
man feel like a man, but not asmuch about the role of women
for us becoming men.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Oh yeah, I mean, I think in relationship to the
opposite one is it's essentialto healing.
I mean, this is the downside, Ithink, to recovery culture is
that it's so like wrapped up inoneself and even maybe wrapped
up in the same sex, whether ornot you struggle with same sex
attractions besides the point.
But it's kind of like gatheringwith your brothers and like
(17:31):
getting you know, getting better, which is honestly so good,
praise god.
But there there can be a kindof walling off to the good of
the other, you know, and to thefact that as a man I actually
have an inherent capacity tosecure her in love, whether she
be my coworker, my sister, mymom, my wife, like I have that
(17:55):
capacity in me, you know.
And John Paul II so clear aboutthis, and he's not saying, oh,
this is only for the marrieds oryou know, no, he's like for
everybody, this is for everybody.
And so he was like dude, he waslike a robust guy and he was so
in, not only in touch with hisown masculinity, but I think
(18:17):
it's because he was so okay, soat home, with being in
relationship to the opposite sex, even as a celibate, and so I
think he teaches, especially menlike myself who come out of
homosexual stuff like, oh, yougot to look at the other and you
actually have to make peacewith her if you actually want to
(18:37):
become yourself, if that makessense.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yes, and it sounds like Living Waters allowed you
to actually start doing that.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah.
So Living Waters, the verymodel of it is men and women
together.
You know, of course we havesex-specific small groups where
we work out our accountabilityand we're able to share
vulnerably, but it is aboutbeing in relationship to the
opposite sex and learning how tolisten to the teachings
(19:06):
alongside her.
I mean, in our culture todayit's always like the men's talk
and the women's talk, but inLiving Waters it's like no, this
is really for everybody.
And you know, we usually saythat the talk that maybe is more
geared towards one sex mayactually be more valuable and
revelatory to the opposite sex,you know, and just that it
(19:27):
teaches us how to acclimatizeourselves to who they are, you
know.
So, yeah, living Waters it'slike threaded in that and it
taught me that in a big way.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
I've recently experienced powerful healing
just through being prayed for bywomen At my church.
I'm involved in the prayerministry and two separate times
I had three women surrounding me, like knowing intimate details
(19:58):
about what I'm going through,with a context of so much
kindness and sensitivity.
And then, even putting a handon my shoulder, I was like, wow,
I think God is restoring myrelationship with women.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Wow, I agree.
I mean I think good femininetouch through prayer experiences
is super integrative, I think,in Living Waters, when we're
able to experience that andwe're not able to necessarily
experience that every week, butwhen we are it's really
beautiful and I think it doessort of fill in a kind of gap,
(20:38):
you know, with various family oforigin starting points that may
have had breach with mom or,you know, historic bypassing of
woman or maybe a realdegradation of woman or
something.
You know there is somethingrestorative about those really
good spiritual experiences forsure.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
What else really stands out to you from Theology
of the Body?
Speaker 2 (21:00):
I think another aspect is what it means to be
made in the image of God.
Of course, I think this isanother way of looking at the
dignity of woman thing.
But just hear me out the imageof God.
John Paul II would say thatyou're not made in the image of
God in a moment of solitude, butin a moment of communion, which
is, I'm not in the image of Godon an island alone.
(21:23):
I'm in the image of God whenI'm in relationship to the other
, and so, again, it's justanother invitation to be like
okay, if I'm going to take thisheritage of being made in the
Imago Dei seriously, I got totake a look at how I'm relating
to her.
Now, for those of us with SSA,that, can you know, brings its
(21:45):
own challenges.
But I think, in the context ofLiving Waters, you have other
guys who probably have noproblem being attracted to women
, right?
Maybe they're addicted topornography and objectifying
women, but yet they still lackin their ability to dignify her
in reality, and so there'salmost a level playing field at
(22:11):
the cross, if you will.
You know, and what it means tostep into, what it is to be an
image bearer, no matter yourstarting point, you know.
So, instead of siphoning offlike into, oh, this is the gay
group or this is the abuse group, or you know, kind of
categorizing based on yourexperiences of brokenness, there
(22:32):
is a, I think, a power and anefficacy when you come together
with various starting pointsrepresented and yet the same
goal, that it breaks anisolation in myself like, oh,
actually my wound isn't sospecial or my wound isn't unique
and I actually can take steps,like my brother is taking steps,
(22:53):
and that may look differently,but the goal is the same.
And so John Paul II reallyteaches us that in a really
beautiful way.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
As you talk about being made in the image of God.
I have this picture of beinglike one fragment of a stained
glass window, and you only seethe bigger picture when that
fragment's connected to allthese other shards and all these
other pieces of glass thattogether form the bigger image.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, oh, absolutely.
It is a picture, if you will,of living waters.
In a way it opens our eyesbecause, honestly, when we're
struggling with something like asexual addiction or exotic sin
or whatever, we can be sohyper-focused on ourselves you
know that one we run the risk ofmissing worship of the one.
(23:43):
But when we're alongside others, we actually become healing
agents in our healing.
So it's not just about us, it'snot a therapeutic exchange like
, oh, I'm paying you money sothat you can give me advice.
It really is discipleship, like, oh, I'm here, yes, to receive
mercy for myself, but I praythat I can be a merciful agent
(24:04):
for you as well.
I think another thing too.
John Paul II says that the manis the guardian of the
reciprocity of the gift, andwhat he means by that I think I
mean, honestly, you read someJohn Paul II.
You're like I love that I haveno idea what it means, but I
think I know what this means asthe guy.
(24:25):
Whenever there's something offin the relationship and this is
marital in particular Wheneverthere's something off in the
relationship and this is maritalin particular, it could be with
coworkers we as the man havethis capacity to break Adam's
silence and to say are you okay,is something off?
(24:46):
And I see this in my marriage.
My wife or her and I may havehad a little fight or a
disagreement or something andshe's taking it badly, and I
think my tendency would be likeI don't want to talk about it,
like I'll let her bring it up or, you know, let's just let it,
let's just go a little bit bythe wayside.
But then these words of jump allthe second you know, you, as
the guy, is the guardian of thereciprocity of the gift it just
kind of keeps ringing in my earlike wait a minute, I actually
(25:09):
have a duty to break the silenceand to say did I offend you
with that?
And if I did, I'm sorry and isif there's a way that I can
rectify it, I should?
Or is there something that isbothering you that you want to
bring into the light, like we asmen are, have this amazing
capacity to do that and to bringa kind of of peace, a kind of
(25:33):
healing, if you will, intoespecially our marital
relationships.
But I even see this in mycoworkers, like, if my coworkers
, I work with a few women,amazing women, empowered women,
but if there is something alittle off in them, I I can be
like hey, is everything okay?
You know, is there a way that Ican help you with this?
Or are you stressed and I canalleviate some of that?
(25:54):
So, as guys, I think we're notso quick to activate in that,
but I think when we do, it'sreally good and it empowers our
sisters to feel a kind ofsecurity, appropriate security
around us.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Yeah, I like that.
So you went from Catholicpriest in training to leaving
the seminary and then eventuallymeeting your now wife at Living
Waters.
What was it like for you to getto know the woman who became
your wife?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, when I left the seminary I thought you know,
dating is going to be like supereasy.
You know like I can do thisFamous last words?
It wasn't so easy.
You know like I can do thisfamous last words?
It wasn't so easy.
You know, my last name isCasanova.
I thought surely I'm not soweird.
I'm certainly strange, but notthat weird.
But anyway, I quickly realizedthat being a good gift in my
(26:53):
humanity certainly invites thepossibility of rejection or
things just not working out inthe dating relationships.
Honestly, that's just somethingwe have to learn as dudes.
If you want to embark onoffering your gift, there is a
possibility that that gift isn'treceived.
So what a great opportunity todevelop fortitude.
Yes, you can grieve, but nomore than a day.
(27:15):
You got to get back up and intothe game.
So that's kind of the mottothat I took.
And, and you know, through thefits and starts of offering that
gift, I did have a temptationto just go back to the seminary.
Like the hell with this.
You know, I'm just gonna goback and be a priest, you know,
because honestly, when I leftthe seminary, I was developing
(27:37):
attraction to, to women.
I mean, there was like a desireto learn more about women and
it was developing.
It wasn't like this high octane.
Oh my gosh.
I'm now desirous of every womanthat's walking.
It's more.
No, I'm appreciative of women.
I'm John Paul II would say befascinated by women, and I was.
(27:58):
I'm like, wow, there's so muchI don't know, you know, there's
almost a mystique.
So I want to know more.
And so that was inviting meinto the game, so to speak, at
this point, when I thought I'mreally going to not do it and
just go back to the seminary.
I was on a work trip going to alittle town in Poland called
Wadowice, which is outside ofKrakow, and Wadowice actually is
(28:23):
the birthplace of Pope St JohnPaul II.
It's a neat place to visit.
So Andrew Comiskey and I werethere.
We were doing a marriageretreat.
I was just kind of clerking it,he was doing it, and I remember
thinking, wow, I love this,it's kind of rejuvenating me for
the idea of marriage.
I mean, it was so ethereal.
I really didn't have anybody inmind, it was just more.
I like this idea and I don'twant to check out into the
(28:46):
seminary quite yet.
So, fast forward a year, we'reback in this same little town of
Pope, st John Paul II, andwe're in this retreat house
giving this living waters thing,and I see this woman go up for
communion at Mass and I'm like,wow, she's beautiful, surely
she's married.
I don't know, that's what Ithought.
I thought maybe she she looksmarried and sure enough she
(29:08):
wasn't.
So I thought, you know, I'mreally going to ask her on a
date, and I did.
And so we're there, we're inthis little town, polish woman,
mexican dude going out for pizzanext to John Paul II's old
apartment, crazy stuff.
So we hit it off, we do thislong distance thing, we go back
to the same place a year laterand we get married, praise God.
(29:28):
There was something reallyamazing about really just
learning about this woman, youknow, and the fits and starts of
being in relationship to her,and she comes out of a different
background.
She was in Living Waters notfor same-sex issues but for
sexual abuse issues, and so sheneeded Jesus and his mercy
differently than I needed in myown life.
(29:49):
But Living Waters gave us acommon language to understand
each other in our broken terrain, so to speak, and it was there
that we're able to learn kind ofthe reciprocity of giving and
taking in love and she needed tounderstand a little bit more
about my struggle and my historywith pornography and my history
with homosexual acting out.
(30:11):
All of these things were justinviting a kind of real
difficult vulnerability.
I mean, it wasn't easy.
It wasn't like, oh, this isawesome, just like full steam
ahead.
It was more.
What does this mean?
You know this could be a littlethreatening to me, or this this
has the capacity to to shake myfoundation.
(30:31):
If, if, if I know that youmaybe at times have a
vulnerability to check out inpornography or whatever the case
is, at times have avulnerability to check out in
pornography or whatever the caseis.
So it was a real fodder for usto just get to know each other
more but also to trust JesusLike Lord.
We need you.
We can't do it without you inand among us.
So I'm really grateful forLiving Waters in that it gave my
(30:55):
wife and I a real ground to notonly meet but to develop, I
think and I hope, a goodinfrastructure for us, as we're
pretty young, still in ourmarriage just a few years Just
had a baby, so two months old.
Congratulations, yeah, thank you.
Thank you, she's really sweet.
We love her so much.
We struggled with someinfertility in the beginning but
(31:17):
through the help of some greatCatholic physicians we were able
to find the underlying causesof that and we got pregnant,
praise God.
So a lot.
Honestly, we're indebted toJohn Paul, we're indebted to
Living Waters.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
They both have given us vision beyond our fractures,
and praise God, we're fruitful.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Awesome, and I hear you putting language to
something that it's sometimesreally difficult to wrap our
minds around, which is like,know what I mean?
Like this is what Christmas isall about.
That he assumed our sexualhuman nature as his own, I think
, means that our sexual humanityhas a redeeming plan.
St Gregory of Nanzianzus, oneof the early church fathers.
He had this wonderful axiomthat said, that which he has not
(32:15):
assumed isn't redeemed.
So the fact that he assumed itmeans that there's redemption
for it, not from our sexuality,but actually for it.
And so Jesus, sexually speaking, he is the he's, he's the man
that we all want to become, manand woman.
You know, it's in him that wefind our fullness.
(32:36):
And so, yeah, don't, don't,don't think that the Lord is
afraid or ashamed of your sexualdisintegration.
In fact, he wants in because hehas a plan to redeem it.
I just believe that.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
And oftentimes, when we think about what it means to
be masculine or what it means tobe a man, the pictures in our
head are not Jesus.
He truly is the definition offully man.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, I mean we do have toreform our minds.
I think we're so pornified,honestly, our lenses have become
so scrambled throughpornography, that we think in
objective terms, objectifyingterms.
And I agree with you Jesus hasto be the goal and he has to be
(33:24):
the picture of the man that wewant to become.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Marco, what is your favorite thing about healing and
freedom from porn?
Speaker 2 (33:32):
I love living in reality, you know, just not
checking out with virtual stuffLike that's.
So not checking out withvirtual stuff like that.
So it kind of honestly it's.
There's never been a time whereanybody I'm just going to say
this, anybody watches porn andthey're like, thank, I'm so glad
I did that.
Like that, I feel so muchbetter after that.
(33:53):
It just burns and then it'slike the lust kind of burns, the
residual.
You know, I love being able tojust stay in reality and so what
that looks like for me is, youknow, being with my wife and my
kid and enjoying a nice bottleof wine or a nice meal or
watching a good movie.
(34:14):
That isn't like the Chosen, youknow.
Like do something, that'snormal, you know, and and just
enjoy being a sexual embodiedbeing.
I mean, angels can't drink wine.
You know angels can't watchmovies.
They don't have eyes, you know,technically speaking.
So I don't know just like enjoybeing embodied without it being
(34:35):
so like burning with lust.
I love that and it justactually feeds me.
I mean, the counterfeit is, oh,if you check out with
pornography, it's sort of goingto feed you.
Honestly, that pleasure is sofleeting and it leaves you more
empty and more hungry thanbefore.
But when you feast on goodthings, it actually is so
(34:55):
helpful.
So I'm a big proponent of ifyou're going to fast from porn,
you got to feast on something.
So find good things to feast onand don't be so scrupulous or
even, like you know, so asceticto where you don't enjoy good
things.
So I love that.
(35:15):
I also think, too, I need goodfriends around me.
I need good same-sex friendswho know me, who I can speak to
and check in with on a dailybasis.
I need that, so I do that.
I check in every morning.
Was I clear from porn andmasturbation and did I do my
daily holy hour?
I have to check in on that,something I'm giving up and
(35:36):
something I'm taking up.
In the past I thought, oh, I'mgoing to do my accountability
like once a week or once a monthHonestly just never worked for
me.
I always had little shadows andyou know days off and weeks off
.
It's it got weird.
I need the daily thing and so Ican't do it without these guys
whom I love as my brothers, asmy friends, who, who can really
(36:01):
sharpen iron, you know, and helpme through difficult seasons
and temptations.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Awesome.
That's so much of what we careabout at Husband Material, not
just avoiding what's bad,receiving what's good together.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
I agree, drew.
I think it's so important forus guys who are coming out of
addictive stuff find good toenjoy, and sometimes that means
getting off the couch and goingand making some friends and
saying to these friends, hey, Ineed some good accountability,
would you be willing to do thatwith me?
And they may look at youstrangely, but believe me, they
(36:40):
need it as well.
And so I think when we're ableto do that as guys and and
inform community in our needit's, it's such a lifesaver
truly.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Amen.
Thanks so much for being withus.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
I'm so glad you reached out and this is.
This is great.
Love the work you're doing andthanks for thanks for just being
a presence on YouTube.
That's, honestly speaking, suchtruth to guys, especially with
SSA.
I really appreciate that manwho's coming out saying, hey,
this doesn't have to be thedefining factor of your life and
you actually have a capacity tobe a good husband despite your
(37:14):
brokenness.
I love that.
So bless you for that, brother,it's great.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
You're welcome.
We are all becoming sexually,emotionally and spiritually
mature.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Yeah, amen.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Guys, thanks for listening and always remember
you are God's beloved son In you.
He is well-pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Thank you so much for listeningto this awesome interview with
(00:22):
Marco Casanova, who is theAssociate Director of Desert
Stream Ministries, where heoversees the Living Waters
program that changed his life.
Marco has such a cool story thatincludes sexual attraction to
other men, gay porn, eight and ahalf years of Catholic priestly
formation and also gettingmarried and, more recently,
becoming a father, experiencingincredible healing and
(00:44):
transformation, especiallythrough the work of John Paul II
and Theology of the Body, whichyou are going to hear more
about, and how it inspired andchallenged him to start engaging
with women and appreciatingwomen in a healthy way.
There's so much rich insighthere.
I think a lot of you guys aregoing to resonate and delight in
what Marco has to say.
Enjoy the episode Today.
I am delighted to introduce youall to Marco Casanova.
(01:07):
Welcome to the show.
Thanks, drew.
Thanks for having me.
Man, I am super excited forpeople to hear more of your
personal story.
Where did your sexual formationbegin?
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I really encountered Jesus in a powerful way when I
was studying to be a Catholicpriest.
I feel like I really wasn't aChristian in many ways.
Of course us Catholics webelieve that we're Christian at
infant baptism.
But you know, for all intentsand purposes I really wasn't
saved in the area of mysexuality, which I would say, if
(01:42):
you're entering the seminaryyou definitely want to be a
Christian prior.
But five years in I really hadan intense encounter with Jesus,
especially in this strugglewith same-sex attraction.
At this point in my seminarycareer I had acted out
homosexually outside of theseminary community, had a pretty
big addiction to pornographygay porn in particular and so it
(02:04):
really was a turning point forme and from that point on I
started to understand a littlebit more about who I was as a
man made in God's image.
But I really felt like I wasn'tvery integrated.
I wasn't committing mortal sins, so to speak, but I still was
disintegrated, especially in myview, not only of myself among
(02:26):
men but also my view of woman.
I wasn't very chaste, as wewould say in the Catholic world,
which I can kind of unpack that.
I think it's a great word.
It sounds archaic and maybe alittle scary.
It's probably, I think, the bestgoal for this kind of work is
chastity, and for variousreasons.
First, chastity is a subset oftemperance, which is a cardinal
(02:48):
virtue.
And I only say that because thecardinal virtues there's four
are so important in that thevery nature of a cardinal virtue
is that you become more humanwhen you exercise them.
So the idea of becoming morechaste is really the idea about
becoming more yourself, sexuallyspeaking body, soul and spirit.
And then, secondly, a virtue isthat which is activated in the
(03:15):
will.
So it's something thatinherently involves my will
operative.
And so it's not like thehemorrhaging woman who just kind
of touches the cloak of Jesusand then I'm healed of porn
addiction.
It's actually I have toexercise something of my agency
as an image bearer of this God.
And so chastity is really.
(03:38):
It's like how chaste do youwant to become?
And if you want to becomereally chaste, then you got to,
will it?
Of course we're not Pelagian,it's Jesus working in us, but it
is all about exercising ourwill.
So, anyway, after this crazyrevelation I had, I started to
(03:58):
become more chaste, but I wasstill rather unchaste in that.
I'll try to simplify this, drew, because it is a little layered
.
As a person studying to be aCatholic priest, I was really
discerning the idea of becominga celibate for the kingdom of
God.
But Pope St John Paul II whichI think we'll probably get into
a little bit more in his idea oftheology of the body he's so
clear about celibacy is not justa hiding place, or it's not a
(04:21):
hiding place at all hiding place, or it's not a hiding place at
all.
So, like a lot of us will say,oh, I'm struggling with same-sex
attraction.
So therefore, based on myexperience of SSA, I'm just
going to be a celibate.
And John Paul II would say,well, not necessarily.
You know, like, being a celibatefor the kingdom of God is all
about being fully identifiedwith Jesus and his kingdom
(04:43):
purposes, about being fullyidentified with Jesus and his
kingdom purposes.
It's not solely based on, oh, Ican't get married because I'm
disqualified from that.
It really.
John Paul II would say no, wegot to look deeper at this and
you got to really challengeyourself with the hard questions
.
So I did, and it was reallythrough Living Waters and the
work that I do that I came toask those difficult questions
(05:04):
and I was able to take moresteps and I'm that I came to ask
those difficult questions and Iwas able to take more steps,
and I'm taking more steps in mychastity.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Especially when it comes to sexuality.
What was it like for you as aboy growing up?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
As a kid growing up with SSA, that was a tension for
sure.
I mean, I grew up in aMexican-American household.
My parents are wonderful, butit wasn't necessarily a
conversation that we would haveabout that, and I think being
able to recognize that in myadult life has been really
helpful for me and my wholefamily, honestly.
(05:40):
So don't underestimate thepower of divine mercy for your
life and your sexy sins, forexample, but it actually may
open up a real faucet of theblood and water for your whole
family, and that's what I reallyhave come to experience.
I'll give you an example, drew.
I really do believe my same-sexattraction is emblematic of a
(06:02):
kind of father wound.
I know people scoff at that andI don't want to put people in
boxes as if that is theone-size-fits-all of people with
SSA, but for me it certainlywas, and so my lack of advocacy
that I experienced from my daddid contribute to my lack of
security in myself as a boy andas a boy among boys my lack of
(06:27):
security in myself as a boy andas a boy among boys.
And what I quickly realizedwhen I came into the healing
journey through Living Waterswas that I did need to do some
work of actually feeling thatwound.
You know like actually feelingthe pain of that and the loss of
that.
You know it's not like I can goback in time with my dad and he
can fill in those gaps.
It's honestly, thosedevelopmental stages are so
(06:50):
pivotal but they're missed.
If they're missed and of coursethe Holy Spirit can come and do
a mighty work but there is akind of wound that's left there.
I did feel like in my healingjourney I came to forgive my dad
in a way and I wasn't able tomove on past it.
(07:14):
If I wasn't able to forgive Hislack of advocacy for me, I did
see it as a kind of injury andbecause of that I think I judged
him for it and I judged him fora long time.
I felt like he wasn't giving mewhat I needed and because of
that I really I kind of detachedfrom him.
(07:34):
And it wasn't until I was ableto really forgive him I was able
to kind of step into what itmeans to be a husband and now a
father.
I remember when I wanted to tellmy dad all of this, because I
was processing this and I'm likeI should really tell my dad and
we don't necessarily have thesedeep conversations in the
Casanova household.
We have good conversations, butwe're not so therapeuticized.
(07:57):
My dad's not like thank you forsharing, and so it is what it
is and I love them and I don'twant them to.
And so it's like it is what itis and I love them and I don't
want them to be therapeuticized,but what you get is what you
get.
And so I thought, okay, I'mgoing to tell him, I want to
tell him that I've been doingthis process and I really want
to let him in on that.
And so the time that I could getwith him is when we were going
(08:19):
to the grocery store and we werein the grocery store parking
lot, and so I decided to shareall of this with him and he was
able to recognize it and he wasable to say, yeah, I know, I, I
wasn't there for you and and Irealized that and I'm sorry for
that, and there was somethingabout that that was simple and
in the way that my dad could,which released a kind of healing
(08:41):
for me, and I was able then toto like, appreciate him in a way
that I never have, and and so Ihonestly, there is a kind of
healing I've I've experiencedwith my dad, where I don't judge
, I don't judge him like I did,there really is a gratitude of
being his son.
So in living waters we gothrough it all and without that
(09:04):
forgiveness piece we're justkind of receiving mercy for
ourselves and maybe it'scathartic, but if it actually
doesn't flow from us, I think itactually doesn't do its full
intent and purposes.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
That's really well said, and that flow might take a
while, and that's okay, it maytake years, take a while, and
that's okay.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
It may take years, you know it may take, hopefully.
You know, forgiveness can begiven when you feel it, to the
best that you can, and maybe youhave to forgive over and over
and over again.
It's like great, so be it.
Keep forgiving until you don'thave to forgive anymore.
I mean, that's the power of themercy.
We receive it so as to give it,and the more we give it, the
more we become like Jesus.
I mean the more that we becomelike these little, wounded,
(09:49):
little Jesuses.
You know where our wounds are,open and visible, but yet they
don't have the stench of death.
They're flowing with divinemercy.
Why?
Because we've received it,because we're sinners, and then
we can give it to those who'vewounded us.
So the more we forgive, themore we become like him.
(10:10):
It's a great rhythm to get usedto as a Christian, I think.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
So good.
So you were preparing to be aCatholic priest and then you had
this radical encounter withJesus, this transformation
started experiencing more realchastity, not just hiding as a
(10:34):
celebrate priest.
What happened when you enteredthe Living Waters program?
Speaker 2 (10:39):
So I was a little nervous because, you know,
living Waters, desert Stream, itall sounds very evangelical.
I was a little nervous because,you know, living waters, desert
stream, it all sounds veryevangelical.
And as a as a professionalCatholic, I was like what the
heck am I, what am I doing goingto this evangelical thing, you
know?
And so a good priest friend ofmine was like, yeah, there's
this guy named Andrew Comiskeywho founded this desert stream,
living waters, reality and hereally believes Jesus can
(10:59):
transform people on the level oftheir sexual brokenness.
And I'm like that is awesome,like I'm all about that now, you
know, post conversion and Ineed that.
And so I went to one of theseweek long immersive training
experiences that we still do andI just went for my own personal
healing and it really shiftedsomething in my life.
(11:23):
The best way that I coulddescribe it, Drew, is that it
broke a kind of domination ofhomosexuality in my life, in
that I was able to sort of standupright, able to see a horizon
for my sexual humanity that Inever was able to see before.
And I think that was manythings operative in this week
obviously the power of the HolySpirit, but also the power of
(11:45):
just witness of really messylives, coming to know Jesus and
the process of how do I actuallywork, confusing attractions out
, not only in this body thatI've been given, but among
persons of the same sex inrelationship to the opposite sex
, all of these things which I'mlike, wow, this is incredible.
(12:07):
And to really put a cherry ontop, all of it was threaded with
this John Paul II stuff, and sothat was a surprise to me.
I didn't really expect any kindof catholicity in this week,
but it was as if I was kind ofhome in my denomination.
This John Paul II figure wasleading me, was almost providing
(12:31):
a kind of roadmap for me toreconcile with the good of my
masculine sexuality.
Yeah, messy starting points, nodoubt, but through Redeemer
Jesus, he Jesus can actuallyhelp me make peace with what's
good, true and beautiful aboutbeing a man.
So that week really shifted mylife.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
I love that so much.
We're talking about Pope JohnPaul II and his magisterial work
, Theology of the Body.
For anybody who doesn't knowwhat that is, how would you
explain it?
Speaker 2 (13:06):
So I'm going to take a step back In 1968, the Pope
prior a couple of Popes prior toPope John Paul II was this guy
named Paul VI, and Paul VIinstituted this beautiful
encyclical called Humanae Vitae,on Human Life.
John Paul II, in a way, wantedto expound on this foundational
(13:29):
teaching, and he did so throughthis biblical anthropology,
later called the Theology of theBody.
And what he did is he did thisthrough a series of talks.
So every Wednesday the Popecomes out and he greets
thousands of faithful in thesquare and he gives teachings.
He gives some kind of teachingsand, honestly, when you go as a
pilgrim to Rome and you'rehearing the teachings in Italian
(13:52):
, you're like, oh, this is kindof like maybe a fragmented
series that I barely understand.
But hey, this is great, I'mglad I'm able to see the Pope.
But what Pope John Paul II wasdoing through the years of 1979
to 1984 was he was actuallyteaching the church what it
means to be made in the image ofGod, what it means to be
(14:16):
capable of bearing life, ofsiring life, and how we can
responsibly do that, not just bysaying a big no, but rather
what does it mean to be human,sexually speaking?
And how do I actually takesteps in gaining some ground in
(14:38):
what it means to be a man forwoman and a woman for man?
That's kind of the thesis ofJohn Paul II's theology of the
body.
So, for a very roundabout way,is I think he was expounding on
that 68 document that was sayingno birth control.
A lot of people are saying,well, yeah, I mean, we get it,
but we need more.
And John Paul II in a wayhumanized this teaching by
(15:01):
expounding on what is human lovethrough the lens of the gospels
.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
What were some of the key ideas that really made a
difference for you?
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Oh yeah, I mean I would say first and foremost the
dignity of woman.
I just think that that is justkind of paramount to Pope.
St John Paul II's thinking iswoman, you know, and he
obviously had a great devotionto Mary, the mother of God.
She was the first receptor.
(15:32):
So there was somethingemblematic of her fiat that
every woman, in a way, just byvirtue of her womb and the
nature of her body, that is madefor receptivity.
There's something about herthat actually gives us an
interpretive lens through whichto see the totality of human
sexual love.
(15:53):
So for me that was big why?
Because in my same-sexattraction I wanted to bypass
woman.
I'm like woman, I'm a littleallergic to woman, I'm a little
threatened by her, I'm moredisinterested in her than overly
interested in her, or I want tokeep her not in a romantic.
I never, I never can beromantically involved with a
(16:14):
woman.
I mean, that was kind of myframework and in a way, honestly
, what John Paul II was teachingme is you know that's a little
misogyny, you know there's likea thread of misogyny that you're
cultivating, maybe even throughpious thoughts of oh, you know,
as a same sex attracted man,I'll never be married because
you know, I'm supposed to givemy life to Jesus and John Paul,
(16:37):
ii would say whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa.
You actually haven't looked ather, you actually haven't faced
her, whoever she is.
You know, it doesn't mean thatmarriage is the end of every
story, but it's to say, ifyou're going to become a man,
you actually have to face whoyou are to her.
And so that rocked my world,man.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Wow, I've heard people say only a man can make a
man feel like a man, but not asmuch about the role of women
for us becoming men.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Oh yeah, I mean, I think in relationship to the
opposite one is it's essentialto healing.
I mean, this is the downside, Ithink, to recovery culture is
that it's so like wrapped up inoneself and even maybe wrapped
up in the same sex, whether ornot you struggle with same sex
attractions besides the point.
But it's kind of like gatheringwith your brothers and like
(17:31):
getting you know, getting better, which is honestly so good,
praise god.
But there there can be a kindof walling off to the good of
the other, you know, and to thefact that as a man I actually
have an inherent capacity tosecure her in love, whether she
be my coworker, my sister, mymom, my wife, like I have that
(17:55):
capacity in me, you know.
And John Paul II so clear aboutthis, and he's not saying, oh,
this is only for the marrieds oryou know, no, he's like for
everybody, this is for everybody.
And so he was like dude, he waslike a robust guy and he was so
in, not only in touch with hisown masculinity, but I think
(18:17):
it's because he was so okay, soat home, with being in
relationship to the opposite sex, even as a celibate, and so I
think he teaches, especially menlike myself who come out of
homosexual stuff like, oh, yougot to look at the other and you
actually have to make peacewith her if you actually want to
(18:37):
become yourself, if that makessense.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yes, and it sounds like Living Waters allowed you
to actually start doing that.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah.
So Living Waters, the verymodel of it is men and women
together.
You know, of course we havesex-specific small groups where
we work out our accountabilityand we're able to share
vulnerably, but it is aboutbeing in relationship to the
opposite sex and learning how tolisten to the teachings
(19:06):
alongside her.
I mean, in our culture todayit's always like the men's talk
and the women's talk, but inLiving Waters it's like no, this
is really for everybody.
And you know, we usually saythat the talk that maybe is more
geared towards one sex mayactually be more valuable and
revelatory to the opposite sex,you know, and just that it
(19:27):
teaches us how to acclimatizeourselves to who they are, you
know.
So, yeah, living Waters it'slike threaded in that and it
taught me that in a big way.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
I've recently experienced powerful healing
just through being prayed for bywomen At my church.
I'm involved in the prayerministry and two separate times
I had three women surrounding me, like knowing intimate details
(19:58):
about what I'm going through,with a context of so much
kindness and sensitivity.
And then, even putting a handon my shoulder, I was like, wow,
I think God is restoring myrelationship with women.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Wow, I agree.
I mean I think good femininetouch through prayer experiences
is super integrative, I think,in Living Waters, when we're
able to experience that andwe're not able to necessarily
experience that every week, butwhen we are it's really
beautiful and I think it doessort of fill in a kind of gap,
(20:38):
you know, with various family oforigin starting points that may
have had breach with mom or,you know, historic bypassing of
woman or maybe a realdegradation of woman or
something.
You know there is somethingrestorative about those really
good spiritual experiences forsure.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
What else really stands out to you from Theology
of the Body?
Speaker 2 (21:00):
I think another aspect is what it means to be
made in the image of God.
Of course, I think this isanother way of looking at the
dignity of woman thing.
But just hear me out the imageof God.
John Paul II would say thatyou're not made in the image of
God in a moment of solitude, butin a moment of communion, which
is, I'm not in the image of Godon an island alone.
(21:23):
I'm in the image of God whenI'm in relationship to the other
, and so, again, it's justanother invitation to be like
okay, if I'm going to take thisheritage of being made in the
Imago Dei seriously, I got totake a look at how I'm relating
to her.
Now, for those of us with SSA,that, can you know, brings its
(21:45):
own challenges.
But I think, in the context ofLiving Waters, you have other
guys who probably have noproblem being attracted to women
, right?
Maybe they're addicted topornography and objectifying
women, but yet they still lackin their ability to dignify her
in reality, and so there'salmost a level playing field at
(22:11):
the cross, if you will.
You know, and what it means tostep into, what it is to be an
image bearer, no matter yourstarting point, you know.
So, instead of siphoning offlike into, oh, this is the gay
group or this is the abuse group, or you know, kind of
categorizing based on yourexperiences of brokenness, there
(22:32):
is a, I think, a power and anefficacy when you come together
with various starting pointsrepresented and yet the same
goal, that it breaks anisolation in myself like, oh,
actually my wound isn't sospecial or my wound isn't unique
and I actually can take steps,like my brother is taking steps,
(22:53):
and that may look differently,but the goal is the same.
And so John Paul II reallyteaches us that in a really
beautiful way.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
As you talk about being made in the image of God.
I have this picture of beinglike one fragment of a stained
glass window, and you only seethe bigger picture when that
fragment's connected to allthese other shards and all these
other pieces of glass thattogether form the bigger image.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, oh, absolutely.
It is a picture, if you will,of living waters.
In a way it opens our eyesbecause, honestly, when we're
struggling with something like asexual addiction or exotic sin
or whatever, we can be sohyper-focused on ourselves you
know that one we run the risk ofmissing worship of the one.
(23:43):
But when we're alongside others, we actually become healing
agents in our healing.
So it's not just about us, it'snot a therapeutic exchange like
, oh, I'm paying you money sothat you can give me advice.
It really is discipleship, like, oh, I'm here, yes, to receive
mercy for myself, but I praythat I can be a merciful agent
(24:04):
for you as well.
I think another thing too.
John Paul II says that the manis the guardian of the
reciprocity of the gift, andwhat he means by that I think I
mean, honestly, you read someJohn Paul II.
You're like I love that I haveno idea what it means, but I
think I know what this means asthe guy.
(24:25):
Whenever there's something offin the relationship and this is
marital in particular Wheneverthere's something off in the
relationship and this is maritalin particular, it could be with
coworkers we as the man havethis capacity to break Adam's
silence and to say are you okay,is something off?
(24:46):
And I see this in my marriage.
My wife or her and I may havehad a little fight or a
disagreement or something andshe's taking it badly, and I
think my tendency would be likeI don't want to talk about it,
like I'll let her bring it up or, you know, let's just let it,
let's just go a little bit bythe wayside.
But then these words of jump allthe second you know, you, as
the guy, is the guardian of thereciprocity of the gift it just
kind of keeps ringing in my earlike wait a minute, I actually
(25:09):
have a duty to break the silenceand to say did I offend you
with that?
And if I did, I'm sorry and isif there's a way that I can
rectify it, I should?
Or is there something that isbothering you that you want to
bring into the light, like we asmen are, have this amazing
capacity to do that and to bringa kind of of peace, a kind of
(25:33):
healing, if you will, intoespecially our marital
relationships.
But I even see this in mycoworkers, like, if my coworkers
, I work with a few women,amazing women, empowered women,
but if there is something alittle off in them, I I can be
like hey, is everything okay?
You know, is there a way that Ican help you with this?
Or are you stressed and I canalleviate some of that?
(25:54):
So, as guys, I think we're notso quick to activate in that,
but I think when we do, it'sreally good and it empowers our
sisters to feel a kind ofsecurity, appropriate security
around us.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Yeah, I like that.
So you went from Catholicpriest in training to leaving
the seminary and then eventuallymeeting your now wife at Living
Waters.
What was it like for you to getto know the woman who became
your wife?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, when I left the seminary I thought you know,
dating is going to be like supereasy.
You know like I can do thisFamous last words?
It wasn't so easy.
You know like I can do thisfamous last words?
It wasn't so easy.
You know, my last name isCasanova.
I thought surely I'm not soweird.
I'm certainly strange, but notthat weird.
But anyway, I quickly realizedthat being a good gift in my
(26:53):
humanity certainly invites thepossibility of rejection or
things just not working out inthe dating relationships.
Honestly, that's just somethingwe have to learn as dudes.
If you want to embark onoffering your gift, there is a
possibility that that gift isn'treceived.
So what a great opportunity todevelop fortitude.
Yes, you can grieve, but nomore than a day.
(27:15):
You got to get back up and intothe game.
So that's kind of the mottothat I took.
And, and you know, through thefits and starts of offering that
gift, I did have a temptationto just go back to the seminary.
Like the hell with this.
You know, I'm just gonna goback and be a priest, you know,
because honestly, when I leftthe seminary, I was developing
(27:37):
attraction to, to women.
I mean, there was like a desireto learn more about women and
it was developing.
It wasn't like this high octane.
Oh my gosh.
I'm now desirous of every womanthat's walking.
It's more.
No, I'm appreciative of women.
I'm John Paul II would say befascinated by women, and I was.
(27:58):
I'm like, wow, there's so muchI don't know, you know, there's
almost a mystique.
So I want to know more.
And so that was inviting meinto the game, so to speak, at
this point, when I thought I'mreally going to not do it and
just go back to the seminary.
I was on a work trip going to alittle town in Poland called
Wadowice, which is outside ofKrakow, and Wadowice actually is
(28:23):
the birthplace of Pope St JohnPaul II.
It's a neat place to visit.
So Andrew Comiskey and I werethere.
We were doing a marriageretreat.
I was just kind of clerking it,he was doing it, and I remember
thinking, wow, I love this,it's kind of rejuvenating me for
the idea of marriage.
I mean, it was so ethereal.
I really didn't have anybody inmind, it was just more.
I like this idea and I don'twant to check out into the
(28:46):
seminary quite yet.
So, fast forward a year, we'reback in this same little town of
Pope, st John Paul II, andwe're in this retreat house
giving this living waters thing,and I see this woman go up for
communion at Mass and I'm like,wow, she's beautiful, surely
she's married.
I don't know, that's what Ithought.
I thought maybe she she looksmarried and sure enough she
(29:08):
wasn't.
So I thought, you know, I'mreally going to ask her on a
date, and I did.
And so we're there, we're inthis little town, polish woman,
mexican dude going out for pizzanext to John Paul II's old
apartment, crazy stuff.
So we hit it off, we do thislong distance thing, we go back
to the same place a year laterand we get married, praise God.
(29:28):
There was something reallyamazing about really just
learning about this woman, youknow, and the fits and starts of
being in relationship to her,and she comes out of a different
background.
She was in Living Waters notfor same-sex issues but for
sexual abuse issues, and so sheneeded Jesus and his mercy
differently than I needed in myown life.
(29:49):
But Living Waters gave us acommon language to understand
each other in our broken terrain, so to speak, and it was there
that we're able to learn kind ofthe reciprocity of giving and
taking in love and she needed tounderstand a little bit more
about my struggle and my historywith pornography and my history
with homosexual acting out.
(30:11):
All of these things were justinviting a kind of real
difficult vulnerability.
I mean, it wasn't easy.
It wasn't like, oh, this isawesome, just like full steam
ahead.
It was more.
What does this mean?
You know this could be a littlethreatening to me, or this this
has the capacity to to shake myfoundation.
(30:31):
If, if, if I know that youmaybe at times have a
vulnerability to check out inpornography or whatever the case
is, at times have avulnerability to check out in
pornography or whatever the caseis.
So it was a real fodder for usto just get to know each other
more but also to trust JesusLike Lord.
We need you.
We can't do it without you inand among us.
So I'm really grateful forLiving Waters in that it gave my
(30:55):
wife and I a real ground to notonly meet but to develop, I
think and I hope, a goodinfrastructure for us, as we're
pretty young, still in ourmarriage just a few years Just
had a baby, so two months old.
Congratulations, yeah, thank you.
Thank you, she's really sweet.
We love her so much.
We struggled with someinfertility in the beginning but
(31:17):
through the help of some greatCatholic physicians we were able
to find the underlying causesof that and we got pregnant,
praise God.
So a lot.
Honestly, we're indebted toJohn Paul, we're indebted to
Living Waters.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
They both have given us vision beyond our fractures,
and praise God, we're fruitful.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Awesome, and I hear you putting language to
something that it's sometimesreally difficult to wrap our
minds around, which is like,know what I mean?
Like this is what Christmas isall about.
That he assumed our sexualhuman nature as his own, I think
, means that our sexual humanityhas a redeeming plan.
St Gregory of Nanzianzus, oneof the early church fathers.
He had this wonderful axiomthat said, that which he has not
(32:15):
assumed isn't redeemed.
So the fact that he assumed itmeans that there's redemption
for it, not from our sexuality,but actually for it.
And so Jesus, sexually speaking, he is the he's, he's the man
that we all want to become, manand woman.
You know, it's in him that wefind our fullness.
(32:36):
And so, yeah, don't, don't,don't think that the Lord is
afraid or ashamed of your sexualdisintegration.
In fact, he wants in because hehas a plan to redeem it.
I just believe that.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
And oftentimes, when we think about what it means to
be masculine or what it means tobe a man, the pictures in our
head are not Jesus.
He truly is the definition offully man.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, I mean we do have toreform our minds.
I think we're so pornified,honestly, our lenses have become
so scrambled throughpornography, that we think in
objective terms, objectifyingterms.
And I agree with you Jesus hasto be the goal and he has to be
(33:24):
the picture of the man that wewant to become.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Marco, what is your favorite thing about healing and
freedom from porn?
Speaker 2 (33:32):
I love living in reality, you know, just not
checking out with virtual stuffLike that's.
So not checking out withvirtual stuff like that.
So it kind of honestly it's.
There's never been a time whereanybody I'm just going to say
this, anybody watches porn andthey're like, thank, I'm so glad
I did that.
Like that, I feel so muchbetter after that.
(33:53):
It just burns and then it'slike the lust kind of burns, the
residual.
You know, I love being able tojust stay in reality and so what
that looks like for me is, youknow, being with my wife and my
kid and enjoying a nice bottleof wine or a nice meal or
watching a good movie.
(34:14):
That isn't like the Chosen, youknow.
Like do something, that'snormal, you know, and and just
enjoy being a sexual embodiedbeing.
I mean, angels can't drink wine.
You know angels can't watchmovies.
They don't have eyes, you know,technically speaking.
So I don't know just like enjoybeing embodied without it being
(34:35):
so like burning with lust.
I love that and it justactually feeds me.
I mean, the counterfeit is, oh,if you check out with
pornography, it's sort of goingto feed you.
Honestly, that pleasure is sofleeting and it leaves you more
empty and more hungry thanbefore.
But when you feast on goodthings, it actually is so
(34:55):
helpful.
So I'm a big proponent of ifyou're going to fast from porn,
you got to feast on something.
So find good things to feast onand don't be so scrupulous or
even, like you know, so asceticto where you don't enjoy good
things.
So I love that.
(35:15):
I also think, too, I need goodfriends around me.
I need good same-sex friendswho know me, who I can speak to
and check in with on a dailybasis.
I need that, so I do that.
I check in every morning.
Was I clear from porn andmasturbation and did I do my
daily holy hour?
I have to check in on that,something I'm giving up and
(35:36):
something I'm taking up.
In the past I thought, oh, I'mgoing to do my accountability
like once a week or once a monthHonestly just never worked for
me.
I always had little shadows andyou know days off and weeks off
.
It's it got weird.
I need the daily thing and so Ican't do it without these guys
whom I love as my brothers, asmy friends, who, who can really
(36:01):
sharpen iron, you know, and helpme through difficult seasons
and temptations.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Awesome.
That's so much of what we careabout at Husband Material, not
just avoiding what's bad,receiving what's good together.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
I agree, drew.
I think it's so important forus guys who are coming out of
addictive stuff find good toenjoy, and sometimes that means
getting off the couch and goingand making some friends and
saying to these friends, hey, Ineed some good accountability,
would you be willing to do thatwith me?
And they may look at youstrangely, but believe me, they
(36:40):
need it as well.
And so I think when we're ableto do that as guys and and
inform community in our needit's, it's such a lifesaver
truly.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Amen.
Thanks so much for being withus.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
I'm so glad you reached out and this is.
This is great.
Love the work you're doing andthanks for thanks for just being
a presence on YouTube.
That's, honestly speaking, suchtruth to guys, especially with
SSA.
I really appreciate that manwho's coming out saying, hey,
this doesn't have to be thedefining factor of your life and
you actually have a capacity tobe a good husband despite your
(37:14):
brokenness.
I love that.
So bless you for that, brother,it's great.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
You're welcome.
We are all becoming sexually,emotionally and spiritually
mature.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Yeah, amen.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Guys, thanks for listening and always remember
you are God's beloved son In you.
He is well-pleased.
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