December 8, 2025 • 35 mins
How can technology help you connect, heal, and outgrow porn? In this episode, Chandler Rogers tells his story of finding freedom through connection with others (even online) and shares what he has learned from overseeing hundreds of online groups. You'll find out what you're missing out on if you track your sobriety without tracking your recovery—and what healthy, shame-free accountability looks like.
Chandler Rogers is the CEO and co-founder of Relay, a group-based program to break free from the unhealthy system of addiction and find lasting freedom.
- Join Relay at joinrelay.app (App)
- Listen to Beyond Sexual Brokenness (Podcast)
- Download The Official Guide To Overcoming Pornography (PDF)
Take the Husband Material Journey...
- Step 1: Listen to this podcast or watch on YouTube
- Step 2: Join the private Husband Material Community
- Step 3: Take the free mini-course: How To Outgrow Porn
- Step 4: Try the all-in-one program: Husband Material Academy
Thanks for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart, and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa, and I'mhere to show you how.
Let's go.
SPEAKER_02 (00:19):
Thanks for listening to my interview with Chandler
Rogers, who's the founder ofRelay, the number one
group-based program to breakfree from the system of porn and
sex addiction and find lastingfreedom.
I think Relay is reallyinnovative in helping people in
recovery connect with eachother, not just during group
meetings, but throughout theweek in daily doses.
(00:42):
And in this episode, you'regoing to hear Chandler's
personal story as well as whathe has discovered about what
makes a group successful.
What does real accountabilitylook like?
Not the shaming purity culturekind, and also some of the
unique value of enhancing ourconnections and our communities
(01:02):
with digital, consistent, dailyactions.
Enjoy the episode.
Today we get to hear fromChandler Rogers, who is the
founder of Relay.
Welcome, Chandler.
SPEAKER_00 (01:12):
Thanks, Drew.
So glad to be here.
SPEAKER_02 (01:14):
Yeah, I'm super glad you're here, especially since
over the last few years, Relayseems to have come a long way.
What's the story behind yourpassion for creating relay?
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
You know, for me, I never planned on starting an app
that helped people withsomething as sensitive as porn
addiction.
I grew up in a Christianhousehold.
I was the oldest of five.
And I remember my parentstalking about pornography.
It was something that we didtalk about in our home.
I knew that they they reallywanted to help us avoid falling
(01:48):
into pornography.
And I always had this desire tobe good, to be a good kid, to
excel and achieve whatever I setmy mind to.
And, you know, when I stumbledinto pornography, and later, as
I realized the effect it washaving on my life, I felt what a
lot of people have described aslike that shame, that
loneliness.
And my initial path, like what Idid kind of in my recovery, I
(02:12):
the first thing I did was join agroup.
And I've talked to a lot of guyswho maybe don't get to that step
for 20 years, 30 years.
And I, you know, I had struggledalone for a couple years, but I
was still relatively young.
I was a senior in high school atthe time when I came across this
young adult group led by atherapist via Zoom.
So it was an online thing once aweek on Wednesday nights.
(02:34):
It was like 60 bucks a week orsomething.
And I was like, let's give it ago.
My parents were willing to helppay for it.
I so I was willing to be openwith my parents, which is maybe
a like a you know part of mystory that I'm like, why was I
actually willing to talk aboutthat?
And why did I feel comfortablestepping into a group at 18
years old?
But looking back, I think I justfelt really quick quickly this
(02:55):
deep truth in my heart that Icouldn't do this alone.
And what's led to ending upbuilding relay is just this
conviction around how importantconnection is and the reality
that we weren't designed to beon this earth to navigate these
things alone.
We don't have to do it alone.
There's a better path to do it,and that's by building a support
system and walking that pathtogether.
(03:16):
So that's what I stumbled uponin my recovery, and I found it
to be the missing piece thathelped me.
SPEAKER_02 (03:24):
Absolutely.
And we talked a little bit aboutthat in last week's episode with
Chris Chandler, who's part ofyour clinical advisory board at
Relay.
And we were created forrelationships, for intimacy, and
recovery happens so much betterin a group.
You have facilitated hundreds ofgroups now through Relay.
(03:47):
What patterns are you noticingabout what makes a group
successful?
SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
Yeah, I think when somebody gets to the point where
they're willing to join a groupand these groups in the app,
right, they're maybe less scarythan a traditional, maybe
12-step group that you thinkabout walking into a church
basement or going in person andsitting around the circle.
This is like fairly anonymous.
I can download an app, I can,you know, get put into a group
(04:10):
where I only have to share myfirst name, I don't have to put
a profile picture.
But I think that people, whenthey come into a group, they
often are looking to getsomething, they're looking to
feel something from others.
And what I've noticed is a lotof the time, either they
instantly are met with that,that belonging, that feeling of
connection.
(04:31):
They feel seen for the firsttime, maybe ever.
They feel like they can be openand vulnerable.
But on the flip side, theretends to be maybe this the
hero's journey where thingsaren't as roses and butterflies
and picture perfect, and thenovelty of this new thing, this
new tool has worn off, and Ireach out and no one answers, or
(04:52):
I, you know, feel ashamed and noone has the right thing to say,
or somebody gives me advice andit doesn't quite hit right.
And so I think the biggest thingI've noticed is kind of
expectations around when we joina community, when we step out of
doing this alone, what are theexpectations we have?
I think there's so manyrighteous expectations to have,
but I think the part of us, theinner boy, I know you talk a lot
(05:14):
about this in your in your book,Drew, of healing the boy to free
the man.
Like, especially in those earlystages, I'm often not aware of
what I'm trying to heal.
What wounds am I trying to heal?
And so we're still desperatelytrying to make these bids for
connection, but people are stillpeople.
Even amazing people in theserecovery communities can let us
down, or we find some moments oflike, I get this accountability
(05:37):
or this support, and it ringstrue and it's helpful, but it's
not a silver bullet.
And so the ability to managethose expectations and realize
that joining a group, joining acommunity is not actually going
to materially change everythingabout your trajectory.
What I think, my thesis ishaving a group gives you an
environment where you can do allof the individual work you need
(05:58):
to do.
It gives you an environmentwhere you can do your personal
work together in an in an openenvironment with other people.
SPEAKER_02 (06:06):
So, in other words, expecting the the group will
somehow fix me is gonna bedisappointing.
SPEAKER_00 (06:14):
Yeah, I mean it's and sometimes it like varies,
right?
It's like you are with the groupthat you gel with.
I think sometimes people aremaybe even looking for like a
similar set of people that youwould be friends with outside of
outside of this context.
Like I remember showing up to myfirst Zoom meeting and and like
I was trying to gauge are thesepeople that I I don't think I
(06:34):
would use these words in myhead, but deeply subconsciously
I was like, do I respect thesepeople?
Are they uh in line with kind ofmy type of person that I would
hang out with and however thatis categorized?
And I realized a lot of themwere into different things,
different hobbies, some areolder, some were younger.
And I I think I pretty quicklyrealized this wouldn't
(06:55):
necessarily be my choice of bestfriends, but I almost prefer it
that way.
It's almost like the diversity,which we talk a lot about in
modern culture and society,diversity.
I think diversity within arecovery group where not
everyone's at the exact samesobriety day, not everyone's
been on the on the road torecovery the exact same length
of time.
Not everyone has the same story,not everyone has the same
(07:16):
details to their struggle.
I think that that's a reallyenriching thing.
But if you're coming in lookingfor, like, yeah, I want to find
guys that can understand myexact nuance and my exact
struggle, sometimes it can bedisappointing.
It maybe doesn't feel asvalidating as I hope, as I'm I'm
being vulnerable, putting it outthere.
And maybe we're we'reover-emphasizing the negative,
(07:36):
Drew.
I think there's a lot of likebeauty, and oftentimes people
are great about like incommunity and recovery,
especially.
I think people know what itfeels like because they were
there themselves a month agowhen they started or a year ago.
And so I think there is thisnatural, like something unique
about community within thisspace that a lot of people maybe
didn't know they were missing,or they thought, okay, I'm
(07:57):
willing to put myself out there.
I'm willing to get past thepoint where I'm I'm humbling
myself to join a group of menfor this issue, but then it's
kind of like I'm not embarrassedabout it going from there all
the way to I actually lookforward to it and I kind of like
it, but can I admit that?
Is that okay?
Like, have you seen that?
SPEAKER_02 (08:17):
Yeah.
There's part of me thatabsolutely loves being in a
group, and there's part of methat is anxious every time.
Am I gonna be too intense?
Is my specific struggle that I'min right now able to be held by
this group?
(08:39):
Or are they gonna try to give meadvice?
Yeah, I have come to a placewhere I love groups, and I
actually decided to step backfrom leading my own groups this
fall so that I can just be in agroup and just participate.
Oh, that's awesome.
And not be in charge.
Because we all need a place likethat.
And it it was surprising to meat first how much connection
(09:04):
really can happen online in adigital space where some people
would say, Oh, well, that's notthe same as in person.
What do you see as some of thebenefits of using an app or an
online format?
SPEAKER_00 (09:17):
Yeah, I think I think it's really about like
we've been, so many of us,right?
It's like for me, I was maybenot dealing with this for
decades and decades because Idid find help like still when I
was young, but I still felt likethis was attempt number 1723 to
do something different.
And I think everyone probablycan relate to that of like,
(09:40):
okay, but you know, maybe thisnew program, this new tool, this
new group, it feels like amissing piece.
One part of me wants to believethat.
The other part of me doesn'treally trust myself.
Maybe I'm too broken, not goodenough to really be a recipient
of whatever goodness this toolcould give me.
And am I really sable?
I don't know.
Those are some fears that Igrappled with for a while.
(10:02):
Transparently, like when Istarted relay, I didn't have
great sobriety in a in my ownmeasurement.
I didn't feel like I've kickedthis for good.
That was not my mindset.
I want to say maybe I was atthree or four weeks, like, which
was decent for maybe my my trackrecord or my my typical cycle,
but I think I hadn't even fullyunderstood the root of like
where this was stemming from.
(10:22):
And I built this for me and Irealized that even though I had
gone to groups that were in alive format in person and over
Zoom, those were only like onehour a week.
So, what was I doing the otherdays of the week?
I think a digital format hasbeen huge.
And what I what I wanted tocreate with Relay originally was
how do we take this to a sevendays a week?
(10:43):
I'm not just going back into mycorner and fighting my own
battle and doing this alone,retreating to isolation, but I
think I'm still working myprogram to it.
Connection is something I canpractice on the daily.
And we all have lives, we havejobs.
And so, how to make thataccessible on a practical level
is like a challenge that we'vetried to tackle and wrangle with
relay of if you've realisticallyonly got five to 10 minutes in a
(11:05):
busy day with your work andfamily responsibilities, like
how can you still stay connectedwith your community, with your
support system and work yourprogram?
It's like a critical piece, Ithink, in filling gaps, you
know, where traditional, and Ithink traditional formats like
in-person, I love.
I know you and I were justtalking before this episode
about the power of likein-person retreats.
(11:26):
And I think that like it's allprogression.
So a lot of people out therethat are dealing with
pornography, maybe somelistening to this video, you may
not feel like you're at a placewhere you have that courage or
it feels comfortable enough tojump into an in-person group or
even one on Zoom where you haveto show your face.
But if I can just startsomewhere to talk with other
people, that's powerful.
(11:47):
And I think like a lot of theseguys, I thought, I expected,
would come into this app andwant to stay super anonymous.
But what we've actually seen isa lot of them, they want to be
seen and known.
They maybe start out with usinga nickname and then they they
end up updating their account totheir real name, putting a real
profile picture when theyrealize that they feel safe,
(12:08):
right?
They hit they've got a safeenvironment.
And so I think it's aboutproviding options that make it
easier for you to be able to gofrom being totally alone and in
shame to stepping out of thatshame and into connection.
SPEAKER_02 (12:20):
That's awesome.
Now that you talk about the needfor connection to happen every
day, not just one or two hoursonce a week.
I don't see how it could keephappening without digital tools
in today's world.
And I mean, how beautiful when agroup is no longer seeing their
(12:46):
meeting as the main thing.
I usually like to call a weeklygroup meeting a huddle, and then
the rest of the week is goingout to play the game.
SPEAKER_00 (12:58):
Oh, I love that.
SPEAKER_02 (12:59):
And if we don't play together as a team, we're gonna
lose again and again becausethis is a team sport, and evil
is playing as a team, and so Ithink it's so so critical to
have an easy, effective way toconnect with each other during
the week.
(13:20):
The enemy's strategy is todivide and conquer.
So you know, we might have agreat group meeting, but what
about the rest of the week?
SPEAKER_00 (13:28):
I love that you said the word strategy because like
if we just continue the analogyfurther, I I played basketball
for a while, I ran track andcross-country.
It was clear to me within thegame of basketball how strategy
worked.
It you know, it wasn't just wehave our tools, like we have our
gym, we have our shoes, yougotta have the right shoes to
play basketball, all thesethings that help us right
(13:49):
perform as a team andindividually, but we also gotta
have strategy.
And when I got more intorunning, it felt like nah you
just run, you just go from A toB.
And and there's no strategy.
And I kind of felt like recoveryin my in my early kind of
understanding of it was similar.
It's like, no, you just go fromA to B.
I need to just stop this and getover here.
I need to just change, just doit, just make it happen.
(14:11):
And I recognize that I need thetools.
I still need the running shoes,I need to, you know, have the
right things.
But I honestly I think thisanalogy of of having a strategy
individually and as a team isimportant because it it does
acknowledge that there areforces kind of working against
us.
And how are we proactivelytrying to address that?
(14:31):
And it's obviously this isn't agame.
This is real, right?
This is our real, our realhearts, our real relationships,
our real life.
Um, this is so much more thanjust porn.
And I think it's so importantwhat you're talking about that
we we not only have tools, butwe have a plan.
We can develop a strategy, andit's not just us alone trying to
(14:53):
be the coach and the player andthe teammates.
It's like we need all of thosepeople involved.
SPEAKER_02 (14:58):
Yeah.
Are you seeing groups that meetin person using a tool like
relay as well, like a hybrid?
SPEAKER_00 (15:07):
Yes, actually.
Um, I we'd wondered if peoplehad like found a way to meet up
because we don't actuallydirectly facilitate that.
And I just heard this story fromthis guy.
He is a businessman and sits onthe board for multiple
companies.
So I assume he's doing okayfinancially.
And he's like, hey, I just wantto let you know, I've been
getting together with my group.
(15:28):
I've actually been flying aroundto like to meet up.
They did a meetup in New York,they did another one in San
Francisco.
He's like, our wives have becomelike really good friends.
And I was like, wait, like youguys met through relay, right?
You're talking about your relayteam that like the app puts you
in.
He's like, Yes, the very sameteam.
I'm like, whoa, that is reallycool.
(15:48):
But I think it's a great casestudy, right?
It's like I mentioned peopleputting their real profile
pictures.
It's it goes a step beyond that.
And we've heard other storiestoo of people that are just
like, oh, we only live a stateaway.
Let's meet up for coffeesometime, or just like let's
grab lunch.
I think having a variety ofways, like it's not just a
hybrid, like sometimes inperson, sometimes not.
(16:08):
I think it's for really tryingto create a well-balanced plate.
We need our fruits, ourvegetables, our meat.
Like I need different doses ofconnection, different formats of
connection to help, you know,give me the holistic support
that I need.
And that can be tailored basedon where I'm at in my journey.
Like for me, I'm I feel lucky ifI can get, you know, an hour a
week to meet with my therapist.
(16:29):
And, you know, if I can check inin the app, which I try to do
with my group in the app, youknow, for two minutes, I feel
like that's all I can affordright now.
And I'm at a stage where we'vegot a young kid with another on
the way.
And it feels like maybe that'sall that's feasible for me now,
but I've had seasons where Ineed to, you know, make more
time for in-person or make moretime for online.
And so I think also just thatlike what I've seen is the
(16:51):
people who seem to do reallywell in these environments know
or they have the awareness tokind of adapt their support
system or their level of howmuch connection they're planning
into their week and to do thatin an honest way, to not try to
say, oh, you know, I'm good.
I don't need more than X amountof meetings or connection or
(17:11):
whatever that looks like, but tokind of notice I need to throw
myself in a little heavier rightnow because I know I'm
vulnerable.
I know I've got a lot ofemotional pain going on.
But at other points, it's likeI'm making a values-based
decision to kind of adjust orcut back rather than a
comfort-based decision or ashame-based decision to like
sneakily isolate.
It's a fine, it's a fine balancebeing able to adapt.
SPEAKER_02 (17:34):
Because we go through different seasons.
And I've heard some guys in themiddle of being discovered in
their porn use or going througha relationship crisis, finding a
ton of value in 90 meetings in90 days or something along those
lines.
And it seems like consistentconnection, even if it's
(17:58):
digital, even if it's in an app,can help to serve that purpose.
We're building newneuropathways, and that doesn't
happen without time and dailyinteraction.
SPEAKER_00 (18:13):
Yeah, it is like a muscle, I think, where we've got
to get the reps, and it's notjust I go to the gym once and
work out my biceps and now I'mSuperman.
It's yeah, this muscle isseverely underdeveloped.
And it's not just I need topractice knowing how to talk
about my shame and talk about mypain and be able to relate and
connect and be vulnerable.
It's I've got to get comfortablelike breaking out of a paradigm
(18:37):
that is like, I can do this.
I'm the hero of my story to thissurrender.
I think surrender is at theheart of connection.
Like, how can I let other peoplein and be let in to other people
in an intimate way, in a healingway, without some sort of
surrender?
And that's that's hard.
But I think the must it's amuscle that we can develop.
SPEAKER_02 (18:55):
Yeah, vulnerability is learned.
And sometimes guys will ask me,How are you so vulnerable on the
podcast and the things that Ishare about my sexual fetish or
about present-day struggles?
SPEAKER_00 (19:09):
And yeah, Drew, surely you just always plan to
talk about this stuff.
You're just born to talk aboutthese things, obviously.
SPEAKER_02 (19:17):
No.
Every time I've shared my storyin a group setting, my goal has
been to say one thing that I'venever told anyone before to
share just a little bit morethan I ever have about a
specific story or a specificthing that has turned me on or
(19:39):
something.
And every time those muscles getstronger, every time the belief
that maybe I am loved andaccepted, and maybe my darkest
secrets don't disqualify me.
That just sinks in a littledeeper every time.
I'm grateful that you've built atool that allows people to
slowly.
(20:00):
Ramp up to more vulnerability,more connection, and ultimately
more freedom.
SPEAKER_00 (20:10):
Yeah, I think it's needed as the problem gets worse
as technology evolves in a moredegrading direction, you know,
where it seems like the world ismoving to hypersexuality and
lack of any morals, lack of anyintegrity.
How do we leverage connection?
How do we leverage tools?
And for me, my my calling feltlike how can I bring technology
(20:33):
to use some and to help guysfeel like technology can be an
aid in their journey to healingrather than it is the problem
and I'm trying to escape it asthe tech, the the phone, the
computer.
SPEAKER_02 (20:44):
Yeah.
As much as porn has come a longway in the past 10 or 20 years,
recovery has come a long waytoo.
Man, I wish I had some of thesethings when I was starting out.
SPEAKER_00 (20:55):
Yeah, no, I think that all the time.
And it is cool to see, like, wedo get a lot of guys who are I
won't call them old, but youknow, they're they're in a more
established season of life, butwe get guys showing up and
they're in college or they'reyounger, and it just is cool to
see like this isn't just guysmaybe who are seeing their
relationship blow up.
We're also seeing guys, I think,younger and younger, not buy
(21:17):
into the mainstream narrativeof, you know, everyone's doing
it, everyone, you know, it'scool, which is maybe what I
heard in high school or in thelocker room, but more and more
guys just not accepting thatnarrative that I'm built for
more, I'm built for moreconnection, more fulfillment
beyond this uh false promisethat is pornography and all the
(21:38):
things that come with it.
Beyond the pacifier.
Yes.
Yes.
I love the the analogy of thepacifier because it really is
like for me, it's like I havecompassion on my younger self.
It was just a tool.
I was trying to just use it as atool to feel better, to feel
more valid for me.
Like I wanted to feel, I think,more seen as a good person.
(22:00):
I I wanted to be seen as anachiever, as somebody who's is
successful.
And because I felt like I justcouldn't fully be recognized and
seen in that way.
Porn felt like that reinforcerof well, maybe you're just
mediocre.
It was that pacifier that I Iknew I felt stupid for using it,
but that's why I kept turningback to it.
SPEAKER_02 (22:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:20):
I know you talk about all the reasons in the
book why, like, it's not justone reason we use a pacifier,
right?
SPEAKER_02 (22:25):
Yeah, it's not just about self-soothing.
It could also be aboutreinforcing those negative
beliefs.
Sometimes it's easier to believethat it will never be good
enough.
(22:45):
And that's just comfortable andfamiliar.
Yeah.
It is easier.
As we talk about how far boththe porn industry and the
recovery movement have come, I'malso thinking about some of the
approaches to recovery that havebeen evolving.
And one of the big changes we'veseen is the way people approach
(23:12):
accountability, the way peopleapproach sharing about relapses
and behaviors that we're tryingto get free from.
What do you see as healthyaccountability, the kind that
you're trying to promote onrelay?
SPEAKER_00 (23:26):
It's hard because I think a lot of people might have
preconceived experiences thatshape our relationship with that
word, accountability.
For some people I've talked to,it's like a very positive thing.
They come in basicallydemanding, hey, I'm downloading
this, I'm joining this thingbecause I want more
accountability.
That's what I think I'm gonnaget here.
Other people are coming in andthey're feeling like I feel like
(23:47):
accountability equals shame inmy in some past experiences.
It's made me feel worse.
So, yeah, what isaccountability?
I it this is maybe the biggestquestion I've asked because we
have certain people say, heyman, put the streaks right on
the homepage.
I want to be able to see thatcounter front and center.
And then other people that arelike, no, I it like I need the
reminder that it's more thanjust how many days that define
(24:10):
my definition of recovery,progress.
And so what are those othermetrics?
Like in relay, they can actuallytrack.
We use the three circles model,which a lot of programs use, and
I think started an SAA that youknow, you're not just defining
your inner circle, what countsas a relapse and what does
sobriety mean, but you're alsodefining that middle circle of
you know what boundaries defineme getting too close to the
(24:32):
cliff?
For me, maybe it's scrollingInstagram when I'm home alone or
staying up past midnight, or forme, a big emotional boundary is
not regulating or addressingfeelings of rejection,
especially with my wife, likeeven just little doses of I
wasn't seen enough or I wish Ihad more of that attention.
So they're tracking thosethings, and then they're also
tracking self-care in that outercircle.
(24:53):
So you can customize that, like,okay, I'm working out every
morning or I'm doing my dailydevotion or I'm journaling or
going to therapy once a week,whatever it is.
So I think that's one step,Drew, of like, what are we even
tracking on a daily basis?
It's not just, did you look atporn?
You know, did you relapse andwhatever that means to you, but
how are you moving towards theperson you're trying to be?
So I am a believer, and and Ithis is my kind of philosophy
(25:17):
that tracking is helpful.
I think it's hard to measurewhat we can't track.
And so just like anything, if wewant to get better, we've got to
measure things, but how do wemeasure the right set of things
that help help us get beneaththe surface?
So a lot of the things that Ijust mentioned are still
behavioral.
They're only really measuring,did I do something or did I not
do something for these differentcategories, which is a step.
(25:39):
I think step number one is mostguys are like self-care, what
does that mean?
Isn't that like spas and youknow, paint in my nails or what
is stuff like that?
It's what my wife does.
No, self-care is how do we takecare of ourselves in our
emotional needs, our physicalneeds, our spiritual needs, our
relational needs.
And so that's step one.
But even just moving beyondbehavioral routines and rhythms
(26:01):
and systems, you know, how canwe be accountable to or let
other people into our journeybeneath the behavior?
So I'm trying to figure outwhere did this even stem from?
What are the wounds that aredriving the behavior?
What, you know, what was I usingthis as a pacifier for?
Where did it start?
So there's all that work that,you know, is not maybe the focus
of this episode, but how doesthat relate to accountability?
(26:23):
I I think maybe one definitionof recovery is simply just
letting other people have awindow into your journey.
Your journey can be things,actions that you're taking, like
things that I, you know, hey,Drew, like every day, I'm
committing with my integrity.
Like I don't want to do thesethings, and that's for me part
of my sobriety.
I'm also committing to do theseother healthy things.
(26:45):
That's part of my recovery plan.
But it's also creating a windowto what are my thoughts?
What are my feelings?
What are the inner experiencesthat are coming up throughout
this work?
So in relay, practically, peoplecan track, you know, those three
circles and their data, and thenwe encourage them to kind of add
a little reflection that, like ashare.
Like if you were in a meetingand you're sharing what's been
going on in your mind and yourheart this last week.
(27:08):
And I feel like a good coachwould probably help you go
deeper and ask why or help youkind of draw out, you know,
what's really, you know, whatare you discovering and
navigating under the surface inyour in your recovery right now
in your life?
Accountability in the groupsetting, I think that's 10 out
of 10 effectiveness, is creatinga window to those things, not
just, okay, I know Sean's at day100 and Drew's at day 30.
(27:31):
And, you know, I I had a relapseyesterday, and I'm honest about
that.
That's a start.
And if we can, especially justaround the relapse thing,
because a lot of guys do comeinto relay and they they are
still having relapses on a dailyor weekly basis.
So I think even if we can juststart to make accountability not
a shame-based experience, it'sless about resetting my streak
and more about being vulnerablewith you know what is under the
(27:54):
surface behind that behavior.
That's real accountability.
That's real connection.
I think that's powerful.
SPEAKER_02 (28:01):
We want to incentivize vulnerability
instead of incentivizingsecrecy.
SPEAKER_00 (28:08):
For sure.
If I could add one more thoughton accountability, I think,
again, going back to where westarted this conversation, what
are my expectations when I stepinto a group?
I want to feel like I'm therecipient of some really healthy
encouragement, of some notshameful accountability.
Like for me, what I want to feelwith accountability is like it's
(28:28):
easier for me to just do theright thing and to move in the
right direction because I knowyou're supporting me, because I
know you have some visibility,some window into how I'm doing,
it's easier for me to actuallycontinue to build momentum, to
move in the right direction.
And that's so encouraging andempowering.
But if our expectations are justI'm hoping to get that from you
in a way that is, it has someexpectations attached, some, you
(28:52):
know, maybe it looks a certainway, maybe I'm aware of that,
maybe I'm not, or maybe somebodydoesn't give that in a way that
feels quite right.
How do I respond to that?
So going back to theexpectations of it's not just
about what can I get, but whatcan I give?
I think in the traditional maybe12-step paradigm, just how maybe
I've seen the space evolve, theconcept of being a sponsor for
(29:12):
me makes it feel like you haveto be at a certain place in your
sobriety in order to really beof service and help someone
else.
Now, I know there's a lot ofways that maybe the traditional
12-steps would encourage theidea of turning outwards that
goes beyond that, but it doesfeel a little bit like only once
I've really cracked this thingcan I help somebody.
And I think when we think aboutaccountability, it's got to be
(29:35):
from day one, no matter whereI'm at and how early I feel in
my journey, the muscle ofconnection it goes both ways.
I've got to practice learninghow to care about you and see
you, Drew, and your pain andyour progress check in.
Like if I'm seeing your threecircles check in and your
journal reflection, how do Iflex into that to develop that
(29:56):
empathy, to receive yourvulnerability?
I think that strengthens thathealthy bi-directional
accountability.
If I'm just hoping to receivethat, I think again, it's we
overcompensate, we're we're letdown, it doesn't produce the end
result so much as when we havethe chance to be there for
someone else, not when we'vecracked it, but along the way,
as we're doing it ourselves.
We don't have to be perfect.
SPEAKER_02 (30:17):
And that is true not just for good sexual recovery,
but also for good sex.
To be a good sexual partner, weneed to be not just me, me, me.
We have to get outside ofourselves too.
Yeah.
It needs to be reciprocal,mutual.
SPEAKER_00 (30:35):
Yeah, recovery can't be just about me.
SPEAKER_02 (30:37):
Right.
So I think in a space wherewe're not just taking something,
for example, in a one-on-onesession with a counselor or
coach, but in a group whereeverybody gets a chance to share
and everybody supporting eachother, we're practicing the
virtues that make a goodhusband, make a good lover.
(31:00):
That's so true.
So I really think it's a lab forlove that is not just about
abstaining from sexual behavior,but having really good, godly
sexual behavior too.
SPEAKER_00 (31:12):
Yes.
I'm like, how are you gonnaphrase this?
It's really a lab to get goodat, you know.
It's like so accurate though,because it's intimacy.
It's intimate to be vulnerableabout my deep dark my deep dark
secrets and to let you in tohave this relationship around
connection and accountability aswe're working through this
together in our recoverycommunity.
(31:33):
But man, that makes me, yeah, itdoes make me so much better at
being able to attune to mywife's needs and to notice her
emotions and to step into thatwith her, and vice versa, to be
able to even advocate for like,here's what I I think I need
right now.
SPEAKER_02 (31:48):
Exactly.
So I'm convinced that what welearn in brotherhood applies
equally to the bedroom.
Those same skills and attitudeswe're developing of curiosity,
compassion, courage, you know,dealing with our shame, being
real about our fears, andpressing into the mess.
Last week with Chris Chandlerand Andrew Engstrom, I created a
(32:12):
new definition of intimacy,which is into messy.
SPEAKER_00 (32:15):
Into messy, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (32:17):
Maybe that's part of what our expectations need to be
for our groups.
It's gonna be a mess and it'sgonna be a mess worth making.
Yeah.
Chandler, what is your favoritething about freedom and healing?
SPEAKER_00 (32:34):
You know, I think early on it was feeling like I
could like not be alone in thisanymore.
Not just the knowledge that Iwasn't alone, but the felt sense
of I've got a set of brothersthat are on the same path with
me.
I respect them, I love them, Iknow they love me.
And that feeling was something Ididn't know that I needed or
(32:56):
wanted in my life.
And I think even as I've movedbeyond that, I think the most
beautiful part of this wholejourney for me, which is still
in progress.
I feel like I'm learning newthings and developing more in my
recovery every, every month,every year.
But it's like it's actually, I'mbecoming more in tune and
connected with myself andespecially with my past, that
(33:17):
little boy.
Just really briefly, I've got, Imentioned I have a two-year-old
at home.
Getting to love him and build arelationship with him as young
as he is, building a realconnection, I think has been a
fruit of my labor in recovery toget more connected with myself,
that little boy that was inpain, that didn't know how to
(33:38):
outgrow this pacifier of pornfor so long, that felt so stuck,
that felt more broken thaneveryone else in the groups.
Getting to see that now manifestin my my actual posterity with
the next generation, it justfills me with a desire and this
vision of like the beauty is notjust my own healing, it's what
could this do for him?
(33:58):
And as I see other men changingand becoming husbands and
fathers that are changed andhealed, even it's a work in
progress.
It's not just what it's doingfor them, but I see what it's
gonna do for their family, thegeneration that comes after us.
SPEAKER_02 (34:12):
Amen.
There's so many ripple effects.
And I resonate with what yousaid about getting what you
didn't know you needed.
So many of us coming into thisthink I need sobriety.
I need to save my relationship.
SPEAKER_00 (34:29):
Yeah, I need to put out the fire, yeah, just get rid
of this, weed it out.
SPEAKER_02 (34:34):
Not realizing that there's so much more to that
that we've been missing out on.
SPEAKER_00 (34:40):
I think it's all about connection and like the
beauty of life and the richnessand the color that just so much
to appreciate, I think, aboutlife as we move beyond and and
discover and connect with ourown self and with the others
around us.
SPEAKER_02 (34:56):
Chandler, thanks so much for being with us.
If somebody would like to getconnected to Relay, where should
they go?
SPEAKER_00 (35:04):
Yeah, you can just go to the App Store or the Play
Store on your phone and you cansearch Relay.
You can also go to our website,www.joinrelay.app.
And yeah, whether you're alreadya part of a program, you're
working with a therapist, youdon't have anything at all, and
you're listening to this videoand you're scared, you want to
take the first step.
We're we're here to help makethat step easier.
SPEAKER_02 (35:26):
And I also spent some time on the Relay website
today and saw that they have apodcast.
They also have a free in depthguide, which is really, really
good.
You should go check that out,and I'll put a link to it in the
show notes.
Guys, always remember you areGod's beloved son, and you, he
is well pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart, and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa, and I'mhere to show you how.
Let's go.
SPEAKER_02 (00:19):
Thanks for listening to my interview with Chandler
Rogers, who's the founder ofRelay, the number one
group-based program to breakfree from the system of porn and
sex addiction and find lastingfreedom.
I think Relay is reallyinnovative in helping people in
recovery connect with eachother, not just during group
meetings, but throughout theweek in daily doses.
(00:42):
And in this episode, you'regoing to hear Chandler's
personal story as well as whathe has discovered about what
makes a group successful.
What does real accountabilitylook like?
Not the shaming purity culturekind, and also some of the
unique value of enhancing ourconnections and our communities
(01:02):
with digital, consistent, dailyactions.
Enjoy the episode.
Today we get to hear fromChandler Rogers, who is the
founder of Relay.
Welcome, Chandler.
SPEAKER_00 (01:12):
Thanks, Drew.
So glad to be here.
SPEAKER_02 (01:14):
Yeah, I'm super glad you're here, especially since
over the last few years, Relayseems to have come a long way.
What's the story behind yourpassion for creating relay?
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
You know, for me, I never planned on starting an app
that helped people withsomething as sensitive as porn
addiction.
I grew up in a Christianhousehold.
I was the oldest of five.
And I remember my parentstalking about pornography.
It was something that we didtalk about in our home.
I knew that they they reallywanted to help us avoid falling
(01:48):
into pornography.
And I always had this desire tobe good, to be a good kid, to
excel and achieve whatever I setmy mind to.
And, you know, when I stumbledinto pornography, and later, as
I realized the effect it washaving on my life, I felt what a
lot of people have described aslike that shame, that
loneliness.
And my initial path, like what Idid kind of in my recovery, I
(02:12):
the first thing I did was join agroup.
And I've talked to a lot of guyswho maybe don't get to that step
for 20 years, 30 years.
And I, you know, I had struggledalone for a couple years, but I
was still relatively young.
I was a senior in high school atthe time when I came across this
young adult group led by atherapist via Zoom.
So it was an online thing once aweek on Wednesday nights.
(02:34):
It was like 60 bucks a week orsomething.
And I was like, let's give it ago.
My parents were willing to helppay for it.
I so I was willing to be openwith my parents, which is maybe
a like a you know part of mystory that I'm like, why was I
actually willing to talk aboutthat?
And why did I feel comfortablestepping into a group at 18
years old?
But looking back, I think I justfelt really quick quickly this
(02:55):
deep truth in my heart that Icouldn't do this alone.
And what's led to ending upbuilding relay is just this
conviction around how importantconnection is and the reality
that we weren't designed to beon this earth to navigate these
things alone.
We don't have to do it alone.
There's a better path to do it,and that's by building a support
system and walking that pathtogether.
(03:16):
So that's what I stumbled uponin my recovery, and I found it
to be the missing piece thathelped me.
SPEAKER_02 (03:24):
Absolutely.
And we talked a little bit aboutthat in last week's episode with
Chris Chandler, who's part ofyour clinical advisory board at
Relay.
And we were created forrelationships, for intimacy, and
recovery happens so much betterin a group.
You have facilitated hundreds ofgroups now through Relay.
(03:47):
What patterns are you noticingabout what makes a group
successful?
SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
Yeah, I think when somebody gets to the point where
they're willing to join a groupand these groups in the app,
right, they're maybe less scarythan a traditional, maybe
12-step group that you thinkabout walking into a church
basement or going in person andsitting around the circle.
This is like fairly anonymous.
I can download an app, I can,you know, get put into a group
(04:10):
where I only have to share myfirst name, I don't have to put
a profile picture.
But I think that people, whenthey come into a group, they
often are looking to getsomething, they're looking to
feel something from others.
And what I've noticed is a lotof the time, either they
instantly are met with that,that belonging, that feeling of
connection.
(04:31):
They feel seen for the firsttime, maybe ever.
They feel like they can be openand vulnerable.
But on the flip side, theretends to be maybe this the
hero's journey where thingsaren't as roses and butterflies
and picture perfect, and thenovelty of this new thing, this
new tool has worn off, and Ireach out and no one answers, or
(04:52):
I, you know, feel ashamed and noone has the right thing to say,
or somebody gives me advice andit doesn't quite hit right.
And so I think the biggest thingI've noticed is kind of
expectations around when we joina community, when we step out of
doing this alone, what are theexpectations we have?
I think there's so manyrighteous expectations to have,
but I think the part of us, theinner boy, I know you talk a lot
(05:14):
about this in your in your book,Drew, of healing the boy to free
the man.
Like, especially in those earlystages, I'm often not aware of
what I'm trying to heal.
What wounds am I trying to heal?
And so we're still desperatelytrying to make these bids for
connection, but people are stillpeople.
Even amazing people in theserecovery communities can let us
down, or we find some moments oflike, I get this accountability
(05:37):
or this support, and it ringstrue and it's helpful, but it's
not a silver bullet.
And so the ability to managethose expectations and realize
that joining a group, joining acommunity is not actually going
to materially change everythingabout your trajectory.
What I think, my thesis ishaving a group gives you an
environment where you can do allof the individual work you need
(05:58):
to do.
It gives you an environmentwhere you can do your personal
work together in an in an openenvironment with other people.
SPEAKER_02 (06:06):
So, in other words, expecting the the group will
somehow fix me is gonna bedisappointing.
SPEAKER_00 (06:14):
Yeah, I mean it's and sometimes it like varies,
right?
It's like you are with the groupthat you gel with.
I think sometimes people aremaybe even looking for like a
similar set of people that youwould be friends with outside of
outside of this context.
Like I remember showing up to myfirst Zoom meeting and and like
I was trying to gauge are thesepeople that I I don't think I
(06:34):
would use these words in myhead, but deeply subconsciously
I was like, do I respect thesepeople?
Are they uh in line with kind ofmy type of person that I would
hang out with and however thatis categorized?
And I realized a lot of themwere into different things,
different hobbies, some areolder, some were younger.
And I I think I pretty quicklyrealized this wouldn't
(06:55):
necessarily be my choice of bestfriends, but I almost prefer it
that way.
It's almost like the diversity,which we talk a lot about in
modern culture and society,diversity.
I think diversity within arecovery group where not
everyone's at the exact samesobriety day, not everyone's
been on the on the road torecovery the exact same length
of time.
Not everyone has the same story,not everyone has the same
(07:16):
details to their struggle.
I think that that's a reallyenriching thing.
But if you're coming in lookingfor, like, yeah, I want to find
guys that can understand myexact nuance and my exact
struggle, sometimes it can bedisappointing.
It maybe doesn't feel asvalidating as I hope, as I'm I'm
being vulnerable, putting it outthere.
And maybe we're we'reover-emphasizing the negative,
(07:36):
Drew.
I think there's a lot of likebeauty, and oftentimes people
are great about like incommunity and recovery,
especially.
I think people know what itfeels like because they were
there themselves a month agowhen they started or a year ago.
And so I think there is thisnatural, like something unique
about community within thisspace that a lot of people maybe
didn't know they were missing,or they thought, okay, I'm
(07:57):
willing to put myself out there.
I'm willing to get past thepoint where I'm I'm humbling
myself to join a group of menfor this issue, but then it's
kind of like I'm not embarrassedabout it going from there all
the way to I actually lookforward to it and I kind of like
it, but can I admit that?
Is that okay?
Like, have you seen that?
SPEAKER_02 (08:17):
Yeah.
There's part of me thatabsolutely loves being in a
group, and there's part of methat is anxious every time.
Am I gonna be too intense?
Is my specific struggle that I'min right now able to be held by
this group?
(08:39):
Or are they gonna try to give meadvice?
Yeah, I have come to a placewhere I love groups, and I
actually decided to step backfrom leading my own groups this
fall so that I can just be in agroup and just participate.
Oh, that's awesome.
And not be in charge.
Because we all need a place likethat.
And it it was surprising to meat first how much connection
(09:04):
really can happen online in adigital space where some people
would say, Oh, well, that's notthe same as in person.
What do you see as some of thebenefits of using an app or an
online format?
SPEAKER_00 (09:17):
Yeah, I think I think it's really about like
we've been, so many of us,right?
It's like for me, I was maybenot dealing with this for
decades and decades because Idid find help like still when I
was young, but I still felt likethis was attempt number 1723 to
do something different.
And I think everyone probablycan relate to that of like,
(09:40):
okay, but you know, maybe thisnew program, this new tool, this
new group, it feels like amissing piece.
One part of me wants to believethat.
The other part of me doesn'treally trust myself.
Maybe I'm too broken, not goodenough to really be a recipient
of whatever goodness this toolcould give me.
And am I really sable?
I don't know.
Those are some fears that Igrappled with for a while.
(10:02):
Transparently, like when Istarted relay, I didn't have
great sobriety in a in my ownmeasurement.
I didn't feel like I've kickedthis for good.
That was not my mindset.
I want to say maybe I was atthree or four weeks, like, which
was decent for maybe my my trackrecord or my my typical cycle,
but I think I hadn't even fullyunderstood the root of like
where this was stemming from.
(10:22):
And I built this for me and Irealized that even though I had
gone to groups that were in alive format in person and over
Zoom, those were only like onehour a week.
So, what was I doing the otherdays of the week?
I think a digital format hasbeen huge.
And what I what I wanted tocreate with Relay originally was
how do we take this to a sevendays a week?
(10:43):
I'm not just going back into mycorner and fighting my own
battle and doing this alone,retreating to isolation, but I
think I'm still working myprogram to it.
Connection is something I canpractice on the daily.
And we all have lives, we havejobs.
And so, how to make thataccessible on a practical level
is like a challenge that we'vetried to tackle and wrangle with
relay of if you've realisticallyonly got five to 10 minutes in a
(11:05):
busy day with your work andfamily responsibilities, like
how can you still stay connectedwith your community, with your
support system and work yourprogram?
It's like a critical piece, Ithink, in filling gaps, you
know, where traditional, and Ithink traditional formats like
in-person, I love.
I know you and I were justtalking before this episode
about the power of likein-person retreats.
(11:26):
And I think that like it's allprogression.
So a lot of people out therethat are dealing with
pornography, maybe somelistening to this video, you may
not feel like you're at a placewhere you have that courage or
it feels comfortable enough tojump into an in-person group or
even one on Zoom where you haveto show your face.
But if I can just startsomewhere to talk with other
people, that's powerful.
(11:47):
And I think like a lot of theseguys, I thought, I expected,
would come into this app andwant to stay super anonymous.
But what we've actually seen isa lot of them, they want to be
seen and known.
They maybe start out with usinga nickname and then they they
end up updating their account totheir real name, putting a real
profile picture when theyrealize that they feel safe,
(12:08):
right?
They hit they've got a safeenvironment.
And so I think it's aboutproviding options that make it
easier for you to be able to gofrom being totally alone and in
shame to stepping out of thatshame and into connection.
SPEAKER_02 (12:20):
That's awesome.
Now that you talk about the needfor connection to happen every
day, not just one or two hoursonce a week.
I don't see how it could keephappening without digital tools
in today's world.
And I mean, how beautiful when agroup is no longer seeing their
(12:46):
meeting as the main thing.
I usually like to call a weeklygroup meeting a huddle, and then
the rest of the week is goingout to play the game.
SPEAKER_00 (12:58):
Oh, I love that.
SPEAKER_02 (12:59):
And if we don't play together as a team, we're gonna
lose again and again becausethis is a team sport, and evil
is playing as a team, and so Ithink it's so so critical to
have an easy, effective way toconnect with each other during
the week.
(13:20):
The enemy's strategy is todivide and conquer.
So you know, we might have agreat group meeting, but what
about the rest of the week?
SPEAKER_00 (13:28):
I love that you said the word strategy because like
if we just continue the analogyfurther, I I played basketball
for a while, I ran track andcross-country.
It was clear to me within thegame of basketball how strategy
worked.
It you know, it wasn't just wehave our tools, like we have our
gym, we have our shoes, yougotta have the right shoes to
play basketball, all thesethings that help us right
(13:49):
perform as a team andindividually, but we also gotta
have strategy.
And when I got more intorunning, it felt like nah you
just run, you just go from A toB.
And and there's no strategy.
And I kind of felt like recoveryin my in my early kind of
understanding of it was similar.
It's like, no, you just go fromA to B.
I need to just stop this and getover here.
I need to just change, just doit, just make it happen.
(14:11):
And I recognize that I need thetools.
I still need the running shoes,I need to, you know, have the
right things.
But I honestly I think thisanalogy of of having a strategy
individually and as a team isimportant because it it does
acknowledge that there areforces kind of working against
us.
And how are we proactivelytrying to address that?
(14:31):
And it's obviously this isn't agame.
This is real, right?
This is our real, our realhearts, our real relationships,
our real life.
Um, this is so much more thanjust porn.
And I think it's so importantwhat you're talking about that
we we not only have tools, butwe have a plan.
We can develop a strategy, andit's not just us alone trying to
(14:53):
be the coach and the player andthe teammates.
It's like we need all of thosepeople involved.
SPEAKER_02 (14:58):
Yeah.
Are you seeing groups that meetin person using a tool like
relay as well, like a hybrid?
SPEAKER_00 (15:07):
Yes, actually.
Um, I we'd wondered if peoplehad like found a way to meet up
because we don't actuallydirectly facilitate that.
And I just heard this story fromthis guy.
He is a businessman and sits onthe board for multiple
companies.
So I assume he's doing okayfinancially.
And he's like, hey, I just wantto let you know, I've been
getting together with my group.
(15:28):
I've actually been flying aroundto like to meet up.
They did a meetup in New York,they did another one in San
Francisco.
He's like, our wives have becomelike really good friends.
And I was like, wait, like youguys met through relay, right?
You're talking about your relayteam that like the app puts you
in.
He's like, Yes, the very sameteam.
I'm like, whoa, that is reallycool.
(15:48):
But I think it's a great casestudy, right?
It's like I mentioned peopleputting their real profile
pictures.
It's it goes a step beyond that.
And we've heard other storiestoo of people that are just
like, oh, we only live a stateaway.
Let's meet up for coffeesometime, or just like let's
grab lunch.
I think having a variety ofways, like it's not just a
hybrid, like sometimes inperson, sometimes not.
(16:08):
I think it's for really tryingto create a well-balanced plate.
We need our fruits, ourvegetables, our meat.
Like I need different doses ofconnection, different formats of
connection to help, you know,give me the holistic support
that I need.
And that can be tailored basedon where I'm at in my journey.
Like for me, I'm I feel lucky ifI can get, you know, an hour a
week to meet with my therapist.
(16:29):
And, you know, if I can check inin the app, which I try to do
with my group in the app, youknow, for two minutes, I feel
like that's all I can affordright now.
And I'm at a stage where we'vegot a young kid with another on
the way.
And it feels like maybe that'sall that's feasible for me now,
but I've had seasons where Ineed to, you know, make more
time for in-person or make moretime for online.
And so I think also just thatlike what I've seen is the
(16:51):
people who seem to do reallywell in these environments know
or they have the awareness tokind of adapt their support
system or their level of howmuch connection they're planning
into their week and to do thatin an honest way, to not try to
say, oh, you know, I'm good.
I don't need more than X amountof meetings or connection or
(17:11):
whatever that looks like, but tokind of notice I need to throw
myself in a little heavier rightnow because I know I'm
vulnerable.
I know I've got a lot ofemotional pain going on.
But at other points, it's likeI'm making a values-based
decision to kind of adjust orcut back rather than a
comfort-based decision or ashame-based decision to like
sneakily isolate.
It's a fine, it's a fine balancebeing able to adapt.
SPEAKER_02 (17:34):
Because we go through different seasons.
And I've heard some guys in themiddle of being discovered in
their porn use or going througha relationship crisis, finding a
ton of value in 90 meetings in90 days or something along those
lines.
And it seems like consistentconnection, even if it's
(17:58):
digital, even if it's in an app,can help to serve that purpose.
We're building newneuropathways, and that doesn't
happen without time and dailyinteraction.
SPEAKER_00 (18:13):
Yeah, it is like a muscle, I think, where we've got
to get the reps, and it's notjust I go to the gym once and
work out my biceps and now I'mSuperman.
It's yeah, this muscle isseverely underdeveloped.
And it's not just I need topractice knowing how to talk
about my shame and talk about mypain and be able to relate and
connect and be vulnerable.
It's I've got to get comfortablelike breaking out of a paradigm
(18:37):
that is like, I can do this.
I'm the hero of my story to thissurrender.
I think surrender is at theheart of connection.
Like, how can I let other peoplein and be let in to other people
in an intimate way, in a healingway, without some sort of
surrender?
And that's that's hard.
But I think the must it's amuscle that we can develop.
SPEAKER_02 (18:55):
Yeah, vulnerability is learned.
And sometimes guys will ask me,How are you so vulnerable on the
podcast and the things that Ishare about my sexual fetish or
about present-day struggles?
SPEAKER_00 (19:09):
And yeah, Drew, surely you just always plan to
talk about this stuff.
You're just born to talk aboutthese things, obviously.
SPEAKER_02 (19:17):
No.
Every time I've shared my storyin a group setting, my goal has
been to say one thing that I'venever told anyone before to
share just a little bit morethan I ever have about a
specific story or a specificthing that has turned me on or
(19:39):
something.
And every time those muscles getstronger, every time the belief
that maybe I am loved andaccepted, and maybe my darkest
secrets don't disqualify me.
That just sinks in a littledeeper every time.
I'm grateful that you've built atool that allows people to
slowly.
(20:00):
Ramp up to more vulnerability,more connection, and ultimately
more freedom.
SPEAKER_00 (20:10):
Yeah, I think it's needed as the problem gets worse
as technology evolves in a moredegrading direction, you know,
where it seems like the world ismoving to hypersexuality and
lack of any morals, lack of anyintegrity.
How do we leverage connection?
How do we leverage tools?
And for me, my my calling feltlike how can I bring technology
(20:33):
to use some and to help guysfeel like technology can be an
aid in their journey to healingrather than it is the problem
and I'm trying to escape it asthe tech, the the phone, the
computer.
SPEAKER_02 (20:44):
Yeah.
As much as porn has come a longway in the past 10 or 20 years,
recovery has come a long waytoo.
Man, I wish I had some of thesethings when I was starting out.
SPEAKER_00 (20:55):
Yeah, no, I think that all the time.
And it is cool to see, like, wedo get a lot of guys who are I
won't call them old, but youknow, they're they're in a more
established season of life, butwe get guys showing up and
they're in college or they'reyounger, and it just is cool to
see like this isn't just guysmaybe who are seeing their
relationship blow up.
We're also seeing guys, I think,younger and younger, not buy
(21:17):
into the mainstream narrativeof, you know, everyone's doing
it, everyone, you know, it'scool, which is maybe what I
heard in high school or in thelocker room, but more and more
guys just not accepting thatnarrative that I'm built for
more, I'm built for moreconnection, more fulfillment
beyond this uh false promisethat is pornography and all the
(21:38):
things that come with it.
Beyond the pacifier.
Yes.
Yes.
I love the the analogy of thepacifier because it really is
like for me, it's like I havecompassion on my younger self.
It was just a tool.
I was trying to just use it as atool to feel better, to feel
more valid for me.
Like I wanted to feel, I think,more seen as a good person.
(22:00):
I I wanted to be seen as anachiever, as somebody who's is
successful.
And because I felt like I justcouldn't fully be recognized and
seen in that way.
Porn felt like that reinforcerof well, maybe you're just
mediocre.
It was that pacifier that I Iknew I felt stupid for using it,
but that's why I kept turningback to it.
SPEAKER_02 (22:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:20):
I know you talk about all the reasons in the
book why, like, it's not justone reason we use a pacifier,
right?
SPEAKER_02 (22:25):
Yeah, it's not just about self-soothing.
It could also be aboutreinforcing those negative
beliefs.
Sometimes it's easier to believethat it will never be good
enough.
(22:45):
And that's just comfortable andfamiliar.
Yeah.
It is easier.
As we talk about how far boththe porn industry and the
recovery movement have come, I'malso thinking about some of the
approaches to recovery that havebeen evolving.
And one of the big changes we'veseen is the way people approach
(23:12):
accountability, the way peopleapproach sharing about relapses
and behaviors that we're tryingto get free from.
What do you see as healthyaccountability, the kind that
you're trying to promote onrelay?
SPEAKER_00 (23:26):
It's hard because I think a lot of people might have
preconceived experiences thatshape our relationship with that
word, accountability.
For some people I've talked to,it's like a very positive thing.
They come in basicallydemanding, hey, I'm downloading
this, I'm joining this thingbecause I want more
accountability.
That's what I think I'm gonnaget here.
Other people are coming in andthey're feeling like I feel like
(23:47):
accountability equals shame inmy in some past experiences.
It's made me feel worse.
So, yeah, what isaccountability?
I it this is maybe the biggestquestion I've asked because we
have certain people say, heyman, put the streaks right on
the homepage.
I want to be able to see thatcounter front and center.
And then other people that arelike, no, I it like I need the
reminder that it's more thanjust how many days that define
(24:10):
my definition of recovery,progress.
And so what are those othermetrics?
Like in relay, they can actuallytrack.
We use the three circles model,which a lot of programs use, and
I think started an SAA that youknow, you're not just defining
your inner circle, what countsas a relapse and what does
sobriety mean, but you're alsodefining that middle circle of
you know what boundaries defineme getting too close to the
(24:32):
cliff?
For me, maybe it's scrollingInstagram when I'm home alone or
staying up past midnight, or forme, a big emotional boundary is
not regulating or addressingfeelings of rejection,
especially with my wife, likeeven just little doses of I
wasn't seen enough or I wish Ihad more of that attention.
So they're tracking thosethings, and then they're also
tracking self-care in that outercircle.
(24:53):
So you can customize that, like,okay, I'm working out every
morning or I'm doing my dailydevotion or I'm journaling or
going to therapy once a week,whatever it is.
So I think that's one step,Drew, of like, what are we even
tracking on a daily basis?
It's not just, did you look atporn?
You know, did you relapse andwhatever that means to you, but
how are you moving towards theperson you're trying to be?
So I am a believer, and and Ithis is my kind of philosophy
(25:17):
that tracking is helpful.
I think it's hard to measurewhat we can't track.
And so just like anything, if wewant to get better, we've got to
measure things, but how do wemeasure the right set of things
that help help us get beneaththe surface?
So a lot of the things that Ijust mentioned are still
behavioral.
They're only really measuring,did I do something or did I not
do something for these differentcategories, which is a step.
(25:39):
I think step number one is mostguys are like self-care, what
does that mean?
Isn't that like spas and youknow, paint in my nails or what
is stuff like that?
It's what my wife does.
No, self-care is how do we takecare of ourselves in our
emotional needs, our physicalneeds, our spiritual needs, our
relational needs.
And so that's step one.
But even just moving beyondbehavioral routines and rhythms
(26:01):
and systems, you know, how canwe be accountable to or let
other people into our journeybeneath the behavior?
So I'm trying to figure outwhere did this even stem from?
What are the wounds that aredriving the behavior?
What, you know, what was I usingthis as a pacifier for?
Where did it start?
So there's all that work that,you know, is not maybe the focus
of this episode, but how doesthat relate to accountability?
(26:23):
I I think maybe one definitionof recovery is simply just
letting other people have awindow into your journey.
Your journey can be things,actions that you're taking, like
things that I, you know, hey,Drew, like every day, I'm
committing with my integrity.
Like I don't want to do thesethings, and that's for me part
of my sobriety.
I'm also committing to do theseother healthy things.
(26:45):
That's part of my recovery plan.
But it's also creating a windowto what are my thoughts?
What are my feelings?
What are the inner experiencesthat are coming up throughout
this work?
So in relay, practically, peoplecan track, you know, those three
circles and their data, and thenwe encourage them to kind of add
a little reflection that, like ashare.
Like if you were in a meetingand you're sharing what's been
going on in your mind and yourheart this last week.
(27:08):
And I feel like a good coachwould probably help you go
deeper and ask why or help youkind of draw out, you know,
what's really, you know, whatare you discovering and
navigating under the surface inyour in your recovery right now
in your life?
Accountability in the groupsetting, I think that's 10 out
of 10 effectiveness, is creatinga window to those things, not
just, okay, I know Sean's at day100 and Drew's at day 30.
(27:31):
And, you know, I I had a relapseyesterday, and I'm honest about
that.
That's a start.
And if we can, especially justaround the relapse thing,
because a lot of guys do comeinto relay and they they are
still having relapses on a dailyor weekly basis.
So I think even if we can juststart to make accountability not
a shame-based experience, it'sless about resetting my streak
and more about being vulnerablewith you know what is under the
(27:54):
surface behind that behavior.
That's real accountability.
That's real connection.
I think that's powerful.
SPEAKER_02 (28:01):
We want to incentivize vulnerability
instead of incentivizingsecrecy.
SPEAKER_00 (28:08):
For sure.
If I could add one more thoughton accountability, I think,
again, going back to where westarted this conversation, what
are my expectations when I stepinto a group?
I want to feel like I'm therecipient of some really healthy
encouragement, of some notshameful accountability.
Like for me, what I want to feelwith accountability is like it's
(28:28):
easier for me to just do theright thing and to move in the
right direction because I knowyou're supporting me, because I
know you have some visibility,some window into how I'm doing,
it's easier for me to actuallycontinue to build momentum, to
move in the right direction.
And that's so encouraging andempowering.
But if our expectations are justI'm hoping to get that from you
in a way that is, it has someexpectations attached, some, you
(28:52):
know, maybe it looks a certainway, maybe I'm aware of that,
maybe I'm not, or maybe somebodydoesn't give that in a way that
feels quite right.
How do I respond to that?
So going back to theexpectations of it's not just
about what can I get, but whatcan I give?
I think in the traditional maybe12-step paradigm, just how maybe
I've seen the space evolve, theconcept of being a sponsor for
(29:12):
me makes it feel like you haveto be at a certain place in your
sobriety in order to really beof service and help someone
else.
Now, I know there's a lot ofways that maybe the traditional
12-steps would encourage theidea of turning outwards that
goes beyond that, but it doesfeel a little bit like only once
I've really cracked this thingcan I help somebody.
And I think when we think aboutaccountability, it's got to be
(29:35):
from day one, no matter whereI'm at and how early I feel in
my journey, the muscle ofconnection it goes both ways.
I've got to practice learninghow to care about you and see
you, Drew, and your pain andyour progress check in.
Like if I'm seeing your threecircles check in and your
journal reflection, how do Iflex into that to develop that
(29:56):
empathy, to receive yourvulnerability?
I think that strengthens thathealthy bi-directional
accountability.
If I'm just hoping to receivethat, I think again, it's we
overcompensate, we're we're letdown, it doesn't produce the end
result so much as when we havethe chance to be there for
someone else, not when we'vecracked it, but along the way,
as we're doing it ourselves.
We don't have to be perfect.
SPEAKER_02 (30:17):
And that is true not just for good sexual recovery,
but also for good sex.
To be a good sexual partner, weneed to be not just me, me, me.
We have to get outside ofourselves too.
Yeah.
It needs to be reciprocal,mutual.
SPEAKER_00 (30:35):
Yeah, recovery can't be just about me.
SPEAKER_02 (30:37):
Right.
So I think in a space wherewe're not just taking something,
for example, in a one-on-onesession with a counselor or
coach, but in a group whereeverybody gets a chance to share
and everybody supporting eachother, we're practicing the
virtues that make a goodhusband, make a good lover.
(31:00):
That's so true.
So I really think it's a lab forlove that is not just about
abstaining from sexual behavior,but having really good, godly
sexual behavior too.
SPEAKER_00 (31:12):
Yes.
I'm like, how are you gonnaphrase this?
It's really a lab to get goodat, you know.
It's like so accurate though,because it's intimacy.
It's intimate to be vulnerableabout my deep dark my deep dark
secrets and to let you in tohave this relationship around
connection and accountability aswe're working through this
together in our recoverycommunity.
(31:33):
But man, that makes me, yeah, itdoes make me so much better at
being able to attune to mywife's needs and to notice her
emotions and to step into thatwith her, and vice versa, to be
able to even advocate for like,here's what I I think I need
right now.
SPEAKER_02 (31:48):
Exactly.
So I'm convinced that what welearn in brotherhood applies
equally to the bedroom.
Those same skills and attitudeswe're developing of curiosity,
compassion, courage, you know,dealing with our shame, being
real about our fears, andpressing into the mess.
Last week with Chris Chandlerand Andrew Engstrom, I created a
(32:12):
new definition of intimacy,which is into messy.
SPEAKER_00 (32:15):
Into messy, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (32:17):
Maybe that's part of what our expectations need to be
for our groups.
It's gonna be a mess and it'sgonna be a mess worth making.
Yeah.
Chandler, what is your favoritething about freedom and healing?
SPEAKER_00 (32:34):
You know, I think early on it was feeling like I
could like not be alone in thisanymore.
Not just the knowledge that Iwasn't alone, but the felt sense
of I've got a set of brothersthat are on the same path with
me.
I respect them, I love them, Iknow they love me.
And that feeling was something Ididn't know that I needed or
(32:56):
wanted in my life.
And I think even as I've movedbeyond that, I think the most
beautiful part of this wholejourney for me, which is still
in progress.
I feel like I'm learning newthings and developing more in my
recovery every, every month,every year.
But it's like it's actually, I'mbecoming more in tune and
connected with myself andespecially with my past, that
(33:17):
little boy.
Just really briefly, I've got, Imentioned I have a two-year-old
at home.
Getting to love him and build arelationship with him as young
as he is, building a realconnection, I think has been a
fruit of my labor in recovery toget more connected with myself,
that little boy that was inpain, that didn't know how to
(33:38):
outgrow this pacifier of pornfor so long, that felt so stuck,
that felt more broken thaneveryone else in the groups.
Getting to see that now manifestin my my actual posterity with
the next generation, it justfills me with a desire and this
vision of like the beauty is notjust my own healing, it's what
could this do for him?
(33:58):
And as I see other men changingand becoming husbands and
fathers that are changed andhealed, even it's a work in
progress.
It's not just what it's doingfor them, but I see what it's
gonna do for their family, thegeneration that comes after us.
SPEAKER_02 (34:12):
Amen.
There's so many ripple effects.
And I resonate with what yousaid about getting what you
didn't know you needed.
So many of us coming into thisthink I need sobriety.
I need to save my relationship.
SPEAKER_00 (34:29):
Yeah, I need to put out the fire, yeah, just get rid
of this, weed it out.
SPEAKER_02 (34:34):
Not realizing that there's so much more to that
that we've been missing out on.
SPEAKER_00 (34:40):
I think it's all about connection and like the
beauty of life and the richnessand the color that just so much
to appreciate, I think, aboutlife as we move beyond and and
discover and connect with ourown self and with the others
around us.
SPEAKER_02 (34:56):
Chandler, thanks so much for being with us.
If somebody would like to getconnected to Relay, where should
they go?
SPEAKER_00 (35:04):
Yeah, you can just go to the App Store or the Play
Store on your phone and you cansearch Relay.
You can also go to our website,www.joinrelay.app.
And yeah, whether you're alreadya part of a program, you're
working with a therapist, youdon't have anything at all, and
you're listening to this videoand you're scared, you want to
take the first step.
We're we're here to help makethat step easier.
SPEAKER_02 (35:26):
And I also spent some time on the Relay website
today and saw that they have apodcast.
They also have a free in depthguide, which is really, really
good.
You should go check that out,and I'll put a link to it in the
show notes.
Guys, always remember you areGod's beloved son, and you, he
is well pleased.
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