January 6, 2025 • 42 mins
Learn how to face your sexual fantasies and process the particularity of what sexually arouses you. This episode was recorded at "HMA In A Day" as a preview of the Husband Material Academy video course.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Today's episode is a replayfrom HMA in a Day, where I teach
(00:24):
how to face your sexualfantasies, how to understand
your specific sexual attractions, arousal and desires.
This episode is a preview ofHusband Material Academy.
I'm going to be teachingdirectly from the HMA video
course and at the end, I willlead you in a guided meditation,
(00:44):
helping you get to the core ofwhat is underneath your
fantasies, not only revealingthe depths of your heart, but
also healing your heart.
Enjoy the episode.
One of the most unique thingsabout HMA is that we don't treat
sexual fantasies as problems tobe solved or enemies to be
(01:07):
conquered.
Rather, we treat our fantasiesas stories, stories that can
teach us so much In session twotoday.
So much In session two.
Today.
You are going to learn how toface your fantasies Rather than
(01:34):
fight against them, rather thanflee them, rather than ignore
them or pretend they don't existor just try to remove them.
We're going to take a differentapproach.
For some of you, this may seemlike new or innovative, but it's
actually not.
This movement towardsunderstanding what is sexually
arousing and attractive has beenalready developing for decades,
(01:58):
started in the 1980s whenPatrick Carnes, who coined the
term sex addiction, also coinedthe term arousal template to
describe the unique combinationof sights, sounds, feelings,
smells that a person experiencesas arousing so turning you on,
(02:20):
or, on the other hand, whatturns you off?
Or, on the other hand, whatturns you off.
And all of that is reallyimportant data Sexologist
Michael Bader called ourfantasies microchips that
contain a vast amount ofinformation.
Now, patrick Carnes created theterm arousal template and then
some of his certified sexaddiction therapists, like Mark
(02:43):
Lacer, marnie Free, ted Robertstook his insights and brought
them to the Christian communityand, most recently, jay Stringer
, with his book Unwanted, hasgiven us a really helpful
approach to viewing our sexualfantasies as roadmaps.
If, at any point, you feel likethis session is taking you in a
(03:06):
direction you don't want to go,then please feel free to remove
yourself or to not engage withsome of the exercises.
We really want to make surethat you are safe, and your
safety is a higher priority thanbeing able to participate as
(03:27):
much as you wish you could.
Our goal is not to fixate onour fantasies.
Our goal is not even really tolook at our fantasies in the
sense of, you know, watchingporn, but our goal is to look
inside of us at why certainthings are appealing.
What is this specific type ofporn or this specific fantasy
(03:50):
promising to my heart?
And getting to know the littleboy who first developed this
fantasy?
And you're going to see that,not only in how you process
emotional triggers but alsosexual triggers.
So with that in mind, here wego.
(04:13):
Session two is about to begin.
Emma is saying HMA is likenothing I've experienced in my
30-year healing journey.
That's amazing, awesome.
My 30 year healing journeythat's amazing, awesome.
And yeah, so far, the bookunwanted is the resource that's
most closely aligned with whatI'm teaching in HMA and it's by
Jay Stringer, so you can checkthat out.
(04:34):
Of course, next year my book,hopefully, is going to come out
and then that will be a greatresource for everyone as well.
This is going to be vulnerable,this is not going to be
comfortable, and this is so, soimportant Because as long as you
(04:59):
don't understand your sexualfantasies, you will have a
love-hate relationship with them.
Porn is going to have powerover you.
It's going to feel like afrustrating, exhausting battle
until you can do the work I'mabout to lead you into.
What do you find to be not justattractive but irresistible?
(05:27):
Don't share the graphic details.
Just a basic, generic overviewgay porn, frat porn, domination,
oral sex, sexting when clothesget wet okay.
(05:51):
Bondage, helplessness,transsexual porn, real couples,
someone beautiful, topless,voyeurism, bdsm, incest porn.
Girl on girl, female domination, shoes, lesbian porn, nude and
(06:14):
outside hookups, malevulnerability.
So you see, we have such a widevariety of what is appealing to
us Climaxing tattoos, piercings, athletic women, an attractive
man, passion, eye contact,stepmom For me, teenage girls
(06:40):
with braces, which makes a lotof sense.
If you were part of session oneand you heard some of my story,
humiliation has also been a bigone for me.
So first of all, let's take adeep breath and honor the
(07:02):
courage that it takes to evenjust acknowledge that there are
not many safe places where youcan actually talk about this
stuff.
Not everyone's able to holdspace for these conversations,
(07:31):
conversations and not everycommunity has a culture of
curiosity and compassion andconfidentiality and celebration
where you can trust that whenyou share something, it's going
to be healing.
Now I also acknowledge thatsharing these kinds of things is
vulnerable and there are peoplein our community who have
(07:51):
preyed upon other communitymembers and sharing these kinds
of things.
So you really do need to becautious about if, where and how
you share about your specificsexual fantasies and attractions
.
Right here in this setting,we're going to scratch the
surface.
It's going to be a lot easierfor you to do this work if
(08:14):
you're in a group, if you'redoing one-on-one, if you're in
Husband Material Academy, thanif you're alone at home at a
computer just by yourself forthe day.
So thank you for trusting meand also I want to challenge you
to trust yourself and how faryou're able to go, how deep
(08:35):
you're able to go in thissetting.
Did you hear how many different,interesting, intricate details
there were when I asked okay,what arouses you?
There is no such thing asnormal porn or porn in general.
There is only very specificsexual stimulation and the power
(09:01):
of porn is in the particularity.
It's in the particularityBecause there are certain things
that turn us off.
There are certain things thatturn us on.
That's what Patrick Carnescalls your arousal template
Certain types of people, certaintypes of behaviors, certain
(09:21):
types of activities, and thenevery trigger tells a story.
There's always a reason whycertain things stand out more
than others.
In order to really understandyour sexual fantasies, you have
to get into the particularities.
(09:41):
You can't just stay on thesurface, and even saying
something like men or women orchildren is still not very
particular.
So here are some questions youcan ask yourself to get into the
(10:03):
particularity, to begin tounderstand, okay, what is
happening here.
In every story there arecharacters and those characters
want something.
If the characters don't wantanything, there's no story and
those characters are coming upagainst some kind of obstacle or
(10:28):
some kind of problem, and inorder to get what they want,
they have to solve the problem.
So in your fantasy, who are thecharacters?
Do those characters remind youof anybody?
Maybe somebody reminds you ofyour mom.
Maybe somebody reminds you ofyour mom.
Maybe somebody reminds you ofyour dad.
(10:48):
Maybe somebody reminds you ofbrother or sister, other kids at
school.
Maybe somebody reminds you ofyour first sexual partner or the
person who first stimulated you.
Just take note of that.
And what are they doing?
What do they want?
(11:12):
In my fantasy one of mystrongest, darkest fantasies I
was the orthodontist puttingbraces on the teeth of a teenage
girl with my penis, hmm,interesting.
(11:36):
So the characters are this sortof honest person who's kind of
like me.
There's also this teenage girl.
What I found out is thatactually the teenage girl is
also kind of like me too, ateenager who feels humiliated
and powerless.
That was me in the story Ishared in session one.
(12:01):
There is an aspect of eachfantasy which is probably
something you can identify with,probably something you can't
identify with.
For example, maybe you identifywith the person who's being
stimulated, or, let's say, youhave a fantasy about a man, a
(12:24):
man who's really strong or who'sreally confident, or who's
really athletic, or whatever.
You might identify as theopposite of him, and I suggest
that perhaps there is a part ofyou also in that man that you're
not in touch with, that you'renot aware of Some other
questions you can ask In thisfantasy how are you being saved?
(12:46):
Fantasy is not primarily aproblem.
It's solving a problem.
There's a story.
What are you being saved from?
Even in a fantasy in whichyou're being harmed, you still
might be saved from somethingelse.
For example, if you are in afantasy in which somebody else
has all the control and they aredominating you, perhaps you are
(13:10):
being saved from guilt andresponsibility over being the
one who is the one who did theaction.
Maybe in a fantasy where thereare only women, you're being
saved from men.
Maybe in a fantasy where thereare only men, you're being saved
(13:31):
from women.
Maybe in a fantasy where thereare only children, you're being
saved from adults.
What are you being saved fromand what are the qualities of
these people?
Maybe qualities that you areattracted to?
Oftentimes, those are the veryqualities we don't see in
(13:52):
ourselves and in the fantasy.
What do you get to have?
What's the happy ending?
Oftentimes we don't allow thefantasy to continue because by
the time we get to somethingreally arousing, we're already
reaching an orgasm.
But if the fantasy was tocontinue, how would it end?
(14:12):
These are the questions thatI'm bringing up so that you can
have a sense of direction aboutwhere to go in exploring these
things.
In Husband Material Academy, youhave a course and a process to
be able to answer thosequestions.
(14:33):
You have people with whom youcan process these things.
We have coaching calls everyweek where you can work with
somebody, and we can not onlyreveal what's underneath these
fantasies, but also heal what'sunderneath these fantasies, and
we're going to do that later inthe session.
We're going to demonstrate howdo we actually work with a
(14:56):
specific fantasy.
We're going to demonstrate howdo we actually work with a
specific fantasy.
There's one major insight thatI want to share for now that
makes so much sense.
It's actually not from the HMAcourse.
It's from the Healing fromSexual Abuse course.
(15:16):
It's one of the bonus coursesthat you can get if you sign up
this weekend and it comes frommy friend, doug Carpenter.
It's also in the HusbandMaterial podcast episode.
Sexual Arousal vs Sexual Desire.
If you want to understand yourfantasies and what arouses you,
(15:37):
you need to learn the differencebetween sexual arousal and
sexual desire.
Sexual arousal is what yourbody craves.
Sexual desire is what yourheart longs for.
Sexual arousal is based onstimulation automatic reactions
(15:57):
triggers.
Arousal is based on stimulationautomatic reactions triggers.
Sexual desire is based on thetype of intimacy and affection
you truly want, not just whatturns you on.
Sexual arousal is based onphysical connections.
Sexual desire is based on aheart connection what arouses
you.
(16:17):
Can reveal what you desire, butit's actually not what you
desire.
Porn may arouse you, but it'snot what you really want.
Or, on the other hand, maybeyour wife doesn't necessarily
sexually arouse you, but she isthe person you desire.
This can be so helpful in somany areas of recovery, both
(16:37):
individually to say, okay, thisarouses me, but it's not what I
desire, and also relationallysaying to your wife perhaps, if
you're married, I desire you.
I'm not experiencing arousalwith you, but at a deep level, I
long for you.
So arousal is the surface levelof what we're experiencing.
(16:59):
It's just what your body craves.
Urges are what you want to do.
As a result of that, fantasiesare the stories that ignite your
imagination, and then,underneath those fantasies are
desires.
So much of our healing journeyis about discovering our desires
(17:20):
.
So, in order to help youdiscover your desires, I've got
a list here.
I'm going to put it on thescreen and I want you to come in
the chat and tell me, from agut level, what do you deeply
(17:48):
desire?
What do you deeply desire?
Look at this right-hand column.
Look at this right-hand column.
Acceptance, adventure,affirmations, authenticity,
beauty being chosen, beingdesired, being known, being
pursued, being noticed,belonging, care, certainty,
(18:08):
community connection, control,delight, escape, friendship,
home, honesty, honor, inclusion,intimacy, love, nurture, peace,
play, pleasure, power,protection, purpose, relief,
rest, safety, significance,strength, thrill, touch and
worth.
All of these things are good.
(18:28):
God created us to experiencethese.
That's why I call them divinedesires.
And these desires, when they arethwarted, can easily become
sexualized.
We settle for a symbolic,sexual version of what we desire
(18:51):
, and we desire all of them, butusually there are some that
stand out.
There are some desires that arejust so deep, because they've
(19:11):
been so neglected or unmet, thatit just feels like the core of
who you are is I need this.
And I know there's maybe adistinction between desires and
needs.
I see you all putting in whatyou desire.
Here Let me say that you may beat war with these desires.
You may feel weak or inferiorbecause you have these desires.
My friend, you're not weak,you're human.
(19:34):
Desire is part of who we are andwhen we distinguish between our
arousal and our desire, itreally helps us figure out, okay
, what to do.
Because a lot of you guys arethinking well, you know, I'll
never get what I desire, I can'thave what I desire.
Well, that may be true forarousal.
You may never get the.
(19:55):
You know the type of arousal itsimulates you.
But you can satisfy yourdesires.
You can get a deep level offulfillment and healing and
wholeness in what your heartlongs for, even if it's not what
your body craves.
So you guys are doing such agood job right now of just
(20:19):
naming your desires.
That's where we start withunderstanding our fantasies.
Here's where it getsinteresting.
You remember, in session one wedid the floss method and the
biggest question of the flossmethod is when have I felt this
way before?
Well, we are going to turn thatquestion upside down.
(20:41):
When you're analyzing yoursexual fantasies and your sexual
attractions that are really,really strong, you ask the
question when have I felt theopposite?
So once again, I'm going topull up this list of desires.
(21:03):
Think about that desire thatresonates most with you on the
right-hand column, and then, ifyou look at the left-hand column
, that's the opposite.
So, for example, the oppositeof pleasure is pain.
The opposite of certainty isuncertainty.
The opposite of acceptance isrejection.
The opposite of rest isexhaustion.
(21:28):
So take that desire, let's say,just for connection.
What's the opposite of thatDisconnection?
When have I felt that before?
Opposite of that Disconnection,when have I felt that before?
So, when you have what arousesyou at the surface level, find
the desire underneath it, at thesoul level, and then ask when
(21:50):
have I felt the opposite.
This is how you find the originstories behind your sexual
fantasies.
It's how you find the originstories behind your sexual
fantasies.
When have I felt the oppositeof what I desire?
So put in the chat what is theopposite of what you desire.
(22:13):
Okay, a lot of people sayingrejection, that's a huge one.
That's big.
For me too.
Rejection is huge.
Being abandoned Yeah's a hugeone.
That's big.
For me too, rejection is huge.
Being abandoned yeah.
Indifference, feeling weak,disrespected, unchosen, not
being known, isolation, contempt, feeling ugly, feeling unmanly.
(22:36):
What is different?
Yeah, no, play, no purpose, nopeace.
So now you can see how our painpoints and our pleasure points
(23:01):
are both revealing deeperstories, stories that we're
carrying in our bodies, storiesthat are coming out sideways
sexually.
Our attachments and compulsionsto porn are not primarily
sexual.
They're emotional, symbolizingwhat we desire.
(23:23):
When you can meet your desiresin a healthy, wholesome, healing
way, porn loses its power.
You don't need the arousal whenyou have the desire.
You guys are doing really goodwork right now.
(23:44):
What is standing out to you?
It's beginning to make sense.
Sometimes your sexual fantasymight involve something like
rejection or indifference, likein the fantasy, and there are
different reasons for that.
Sometimes that helps it feelreal, because you can't even
imagine what it would be like tonot experience those things
Like my sexual fantasy sometimesinvolved me being humiliated.
What's with that?
(24:06):
Sometimes it's because, byfantasizing about it, I have
some level of control or choiceabout it.
Rather than just having ithappen to me, I'm the one making
it happen.
There are lots of differentstorylines here.
I want to emphasize that thereis no single cause to any sexual
fantasy.
Rather, there are manycontributing factors.
(24:28):
You can't just look at oh, Ihad this childhood experience,
so, um, as a result of that, Ihave these sexual fantasies.
It's not always a directconnection.
It's more like a recipe thathas many different things
involved in it.
The more you study your story,the more you see different
contributors.
And this is important becausewe're not blaming our past,
(24:50):
we're not blaming our parents,we're not blaming our peers, or
we're not blaming porn, butrather we're naming how our
sexual development was shaped,how it got stunted, and always
having curiosity Because I mightthink I know where all this
stuff comes from, but there'salways more to learn.
We are now going to do a littlebit of work to help you get to
(25:17):
the core of your fantasy and tobe able to process the
experiences underneath it.
Here we go.
This is going to be anexperiential exercise that you
may or may not want toparticipate in.
You're welcome to simply watchor to come along for the ride.
(25:42):
In unit six of HMA, I teach myapproach to working with
triggers and fantasies andreally healing the wounds
underneath them, and it's calledolder brother coaching,
essentially, becoming the olderbrother to your inner child, to
(26:06):
the part of you that has thisfantasy, to the little boy who
first encountered porn or whofirst developed these fantasies.
How do you work with thatlittle boy?
How do you help him?
That's what I'm about to teachyou.
Older brother coachingessentially has three steps.
(26:26):
You got to locate the boy, lovethe boy and lead the boy.
Locate the boy, love the boyand lead the boy.
The first step is to locate theboy, which we've already been
starting to do.
Remember when I asked you whatdo you deeply desire?
And then, when have you feltthe opposite?
(26:46):
That's how you start to locatethe boy.
That's how you start to findout.
Who is it really?
Who has this sexual fantasy?
It's not the adult man, it's alittle boy.
So I want to invite you topicture that boy, to bring him
(27:11):
into your imagination, the onewho felt rejected or whose
desires were unmet.
Can you see him?
What do you see?
If you have this little boy inyour mind, whether he's a child,
(27:40):
teenager, maybe even an infant,how do you feel toward him?
Remember we asked this questionin session one.
If you feel anything other thanlove, I want to invite those
feelings to step aside so thatyou can enter in with sadness,
(28:01):
so you can enter in withcompassion, curiosity,
connection.
And if you are now in a placewhere you would like to spend
some time with that little boy,then in a moment you have a
(28:23):
chance to enter his world asyour current adult self.
Drake says he looks like alittle homeless kid.
Jim says he's so sad.
Dwayne says he's a kid sittingby himself in a class full of
kids.
B says in some ways he's tryingto be unnoticed.
(28:44):
Perry says I'm crying.
The next step is to love the boyas your current adult self.
Come to him Right now.
There's nothing to do, nothingto say.
I want you to approach him froma safe, comfortable distance.
(29:08):
If he's in a bedroom, maybe youwant to be on the outside of
the door.
Maybe knock on the door.
If he's in an open space, don'tcome too close.
Maybe get down on his level andwith no agenda, take a moment
to just be with him.
Just be with him and see whathappens.
(29:34):
And see what happens.
You may feel the urge to hughim.
You may feel the urge to saysomething.
Save that for later.
Just be with him.
Notice what you notice.
(30:00):
How is he reacting to you?
Is he afraid of you?
Is he eager and happy to seeyou?
Does he know who you are?
(30:20):
Just allow it to unfold.
If you want, you can ask theHoly Spirit to lead this process
and if he doesn't trust you,honor him and give him space.
Just be with him Right now.
(30:49):
Your goal is not to fix him,not to teach him, not even to
save him, but to see him andknow him.
And as you go with the flow,what happens next?
(31:14):
What happens next?
Allow your imagination to runwith this.
What does this boy need fromyou right now?
If he feels unsafe, he needsprotection.
(31:40):
If he feels alone, he needsconnection.
You guys are doing so well.
Looking in the chat Beautifulwork.
(32:08):
There's so many chat messageshere that are amazing.
I'm just going to let it happen, and if you're feeling some
resistance to the kid withinyourself, just be aware of that.
(32:29):
That may be enough for today tostop there If you want to keep
going.
You can Remember that this kidhas not only been rejected or
(32:52):
wounded by people from the past.
He's also probably beenrejected by you.
Wounded by people from the past.
He's also probably beenrejected by you.
He's also probably been ignoredand abandoned, maybe even
abused by you.
You may want to apologize forhow you have treated this kid or
(33:21):
just been unaware of him.
If you're reaching the edge ofwhat you can handle, notice that
.
And if you want to keep going,you can go towards the third
step, which is lead the boy.
Do you locate the boy after youlove the boy?
Let me tell you how to lead theboy.
Do you locate the boy after youlove the boy?
Let me tell you how to lead theboy.
(33:43):
First, listen to him.
What is he saying to you?
He's not saying anything withhis words.
What is his body saying to you?
Just listen, rece, honest andcourageous.
(34:20):
If you want, you can repeatback what he's saying.
I hear you saying this,something as simple as that.
(34:43):
Some other responses.
If you need help with thiscould be that makes sense or you
know what's it like for you.
Is there anything he wants todo?
What does he want to do?
If you need space from you,give him space.
Is there anything he wants todo?
What does he want to do If heneeds space from you, give him
(35:03):
space.
If he needs to come close, lethim come close.
Does he want to play?
Does he want to hug?
If you're meeting him in thepast, does he want to come into
the present with you?
Would he like that?
(35:24):
Don't overthink it.
Just go with your gut.
What does he want to do?
If this isn't resonating,that's okay.
Whatever he wants to do, canyou join him?
(36:00):
A voice and a choice.
See if he might be open tosomething else from you and if
(36:28):
he's receptive, you may want togive him a blessing.
Maybe it's just the blessing ofyour eyes and eye contact.
Maybe it's the blessing of ahug.
Maybe it's the blessing ofwords that he needs to hear,
words that he desperately longsto hear.
Maybe you can just appreciatehim for allowing you to spend
(36:59):
this time together.
There's no formula for this.
Even if it doesn't make sense,go with it.
Let it happen If it feels rightand if you want to.
(37:38):
You can also notice if Jesus isthere with you.
See if you can sense hispresence.
Where is Jesus?
What is he saying?
(37:58):
What is he doing?
How is he relating to thatlittle boy?
If you need to stop, you canstop.
Sometimes Jesus can breakthrough that little boy in a way
(38:20):
that you or I cannot.
Even if this is not reallyworking out for you, it's giving
you a really accurate pictureof where you're getting stuck
and what the problem might be.
(38:40):
And if this is working for you,oh my goodness, keep going.
Don't overthink it.
You are using your imaginationto heal.
You are using your imaginationto heal.
Your imagination was hijackedby porn and unwanted sexual
(39:03):
attractions, but now it's beingredeemed and reclaimed by the
one who created it.
It's not a bad part of you.
It's a beautiful part of you.
Right now, you're using it tomeet your desires.
Now you're using it to meetyour desires.
If you feel like you're comingto a stopping point, that's
(39:29):
great.
If you want to keep going,that's great too.
I'm so glad you're here.
I'm so grateful for all of youwitnessing each other in this
(39:55):
moment.
We're creating new stories, newneural pathways in our
imaginations.
This experience was a kind offantasy in a way.
Right, it's a story you'reimagining.
It's igniting your imagination,and if you had a hard time with
it, that's okay.
That's why we're here.
That's why Husband MaterialAcademy exists to help you
(40:16):
through it.
That's why working withsomebody one-on-one, or any one
of our retreats can really help.
This is something that you cando with a coach, a therapist or
counselor.
It's also something that youmight be able to do on your own.
This is another tool for yourtoolbox today.
(40:39):
Locate the boy, love the boy,lead the boy.
It could be as simple as wow,I'm feeling so sexually
triggered.
Hello childhood, let's go calla friend.
It could be that simple.
(40:59):
This experience may not havetied up neatly in a bow.
Hopefully, this is going totake you into an environment, a
community, a process where youcan pick up from where you left
(41:21):
off.
Now you know a little bit moreabout what it looks like and
what it feels like to access thedeeply held feelings and
desires in our souls.
Our sexuality and ourspirituality is so connected.
(41:43):
The surface level, sexualthoughts and feelings, are like
the tip of the iceberg, andunderneath all of that.
There are these soul leveldesires.
A lot of you guys are sayingI'm in tears.
Some of you guys are saying I'min tears.
Some of you guys are saying I'mfeeling numb.
Thank you for sharing.
Thank you so much for stickingwith me through the entire
(42:04):
teaching.
This has been a preview ofHusband Material Academy.
We only open up the doors toHMA twice a year, in January and
also in July.
So if you would like to joinHMA or learn what it's all about
, go to joinhmacom and alwaysremember my friend you are God's
beloved son.
In you he is well-pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Today's episode is a replayfrom HMA in a Day, where I teach
(00:24):
how to face your sexualfantasies, how to understand
your specific sexual attractions, arousal and desires.
This episode is a preview ofHusband Material Academy.
I'm going to be teachingdirectly from the HMA video
course and at the end, I willlead you in a guided meditation,
(00:44):
helping you get to the core ofwhat is underneath your
fantasies, not only revealingthe depths of your heart, but
also healing your heart.
Enjoy the episode.
One of the most unique thingsabout HMA is that we don't treat
sexual fantasies as problems tobe solved or enemies to be
(01:07):
conquered.
Rather, we treat our fantasiesas stories, stories that can
teach us so much In session twotoday.
So much In session two.
Today.
You are going to learn how toface your fantasies Rather than
(01:34):
fight against them, rather thanflee them, rather than ignore
them or pretend they don't existor just try to remove them.
We're going to take a differentapproach.
For some of you, this may seemlike new or innovative, but it's
actually not.
This movement towardsunderstanding what is sexually
arousing and attractive has beenalready developing for decades,
(01:58):
started in the 1980s whenPatrick Carnes, who coined the
term sex addiction, also coinedthe term arousal template to
describe the unique combinationof sights, sounds, feelings,
smells that a person experiencesas arousing so turning you on,
(02:20):
or, on the other hand, whatturns you off?
Or, on the other hand, whatturns you off.
And all of that is reallyimportant data Sexologist
Michael Bader called ourfantasies microchips that
contain a vast amount ofinformation.
Now, patrick Carnes created theterm arousal template and then
some of his certified sexaddiction therapists, like Mark
(02:43):
Lacer, marnie Free, ted Robertstook his insights and brought
them to the Christian communityand, most recently, jay Stringer
, with his book Unwanted, hasgiven us a really helpful
approach to viewing our sexualfantasies as roadmaps.
If, at any point, you feel likethis session is taking you in a
(03:06):
direction you don't want to go,then please feel free to remove
yourself or to not engage withsome of the exercises.
We really want to make surethat you are safe, and your
safety is a higher priority thanbeing able to participate as
(03:27):
much as you wish you could.
Our goal is not to fixate onour fantasies.
Our goal is not even really tolook at our fantasies in the
sense of, you know, watchingporn, but our goal is to look
inside of us at why certainthings are appealing.
What is this specific type ofporn or this specific fantasy
(03:50):
promising to my heart?
And getting to know the littleboy who first developed this
fantasy?
And you're going to see that,not only in how you process
emotional triggers but alsosexual triggers.
So with that in mind, here wego.
(04:13):
Session two is about to begin.
Emma is saying HMA is likenothing I've experienced in my
30-year healing journey.
That's amazing, awesome.
My 30 year healing journeythat's amazing, awesome.
And yeah, so far, the bookunwanted is the resource that's
most closely aligned with whatI'm teaching in HMA and it's by
Jay Stringer, so you can checkthat out.
(04:34):
Of course, next year my book,hopefully, is going to come out
and then that will be a greatresource for everyone as well.
This is going to be vulnerable,this is not going to be
comfortable, and this is so, soimportant Because as long as you
(04:59):
don't understand your sexualfantasies, you will have a
love-hate relationship with them.
Porn is going to have powerover you.
It's going to feel like afrustrating, exhausting battle
until you can do the work I'mabout to lead you into.
What do you find to be not justattractive but irresistible?
(05:27):
Don't share the graphic details.
Just a basic, generic overviewgay porn, frat porn, domination,
oral sex, sexting when clothesget wet okay.
(05:51):
Bondage, helplessness,transsexual porn, real couples,
someone beautiful, topless,voyeurism, bdsm, incest porn.
Girl on girl, female domination, shoes, lesbian porn, nude and
(06:14):
outside hookups, malevulnerability.
So you see, we have such a widevariety of what is appealing to
us Climaxing tattoos, piercings, athletic women, an attractive
man, passion, eye contact,stepmom For me, teenage girls
(06:40):
with braces, which makes a lotof sense.
If you were part of session oneand you heard some of my story,
humiliation has also been a bigone for me.
So first of all, let's take adeep breath and honor the
(07:02):
courage that it takes to evenjust acknowledge that there are
not many safe places where youcan actually talk about this
stuff.
Not everyone's able to holdspace for these conversations,
(07:31):
conversations and not everycommunity has a culture of
curiosity and compassion andconfidentiality and celebration
where you can trust that whenyou share something, it's going
to be healing.
Now I also acknowledge thatsharing these kinds of things is
vulnerable and there are peoplein our community who have
(07:51):
preyed upon other communitymembers and sharing these kinds
of things.
So you really do need to becautious about if, where and how
you share about your specificsexual fantasies and attractions
.
Right here in this setting,we're going to scratch the
surface.
It's going to be a lot easierfor you to do this work if
(08:14):
you're in a group, if you'redoing one-on-one, if you're in
Husband Material Academy, thanif you're alone at home at a
computer just by yourself forthe day.
So thank you for trusting meand also I want to challenge you
to trust yourself and how faryou're able to go, how deep
(08:35):
you're able to go in thissetting.
Did you hear how many different,interesting, intricate details
there were when I asked okay,what arouses you?
There is no such thing asnormal porn or porn in general.
There is only very specificsexual stimulation and the power
(09:01):
of porn is in the particularity.
It's in the particularityBecause there are certain things
that turn us off.
There are certain things thatturn us on.
That's what Patrick Carnescalls your arousal template
Certain types of people, certaintypes of behaviors, certain
(09:21):
types of activities, and thenevery trigger tells a story.
There's always a reason whycertain things stand out more
than others.
In order to really understandyour sexual fantasies, you have
to get into the particularities.
(09:41):
You can't just stay on thesurface, and even saying
something like men or women orchildren is still not very
particular.
So here are some questions youcan ask yourself to get into the
(10:03):
particularity, to begin tounderstand, okay, what is
happening here.
In every story there arecharacters and those characters
want something.
If the characters don't wantanything, there's no story and
those characters are coming upagainst some kind of obstacle or
(10:28):
some kind of problem, and inorder to get what they want,
they have to solve the problem.
So in your fantasy, who are thecharacters?
Do those characters remind youof anybody?
Maybe somebody reminds you ofyour mom.
Maybe somebody reminds you ofyour mom.
Maybe somebody reminds you ofyour dad.
(10:48):
Maybe somebody reminds you ofbrother or sister, other kids at
school.
Maybe somebody reminds you ofyour first sexual partner or the
person who first stimulated you.
Just take note of that.
And what are they doing?
What do they want?
(11:12):
In my fantasy one of mystrongest, darkest fantasies I
was the orthodontist puttingbraces on the teeth of a teenage
girl with my penis, hmm,interesting.
(11:36):
So the characters are this sortof honest person who's kind of
like me.
There's also this teenage girl.
What I found out is thatactually the teenage girl is
also kind of like me too, ateenager who feels humiliated
and powerless.
That was me in the story Ishared in session one.
(12:01):
There is an aspect of eachfantasy which is probably
something you can identify with,probably something you can't
identify with.
For example, maybe you identifywith the person who's being
stimulated, or, let's say, youhave a fantasy about a man, a
(12:24):
man who's really strong or who'sreally confident, or who's
really athletic, or whatever.
You might identify as theopposite of him, and I suggest
that perhaps there is a part ofyou also in that man that you're
not in touch with, that you'renot aware of Some other
questions you can ask In thisfantasy how are you being saved?
(12:46):
Fantasy is not primarily aproblem.
It's solving a problem.
There's a story.
What are you being saved from?
Even in a fantasy in whichyou're being harmed, you still
might be saved from somethingelse.
For example, if you are in afantasy in which somebody else
has all the control and they aredominating you, perhaps you are
(13:10):
being saved from guilt andresponsibility over being the
one who is the one who did theaction.
Maybe in a fantasy where thereare only women, you're being
saved from men.
Maybe in a fantasy where thereare only men, you're being saved
(13:31):
from women.
Maybe in a fantasy where thereare only children, you're being
saved from adults.
What are you being saved fromand what are the qualities of
these people?
Maybe qualities that you areattracted to?
Oftentimes, those are the veryqualities we don't see in
(13:52):
ourselves and in the fantasy.
What do you get to have?
What's the happy ending?
Oftentimes we don't allow thefantasy to continue because by
the time we get to somethingreally arousing, we're already
reaching an orgasm.
But if the fantasy was tocontinue, how would it end?
(14:12):
These are the questions thatI'm bringing up so that you can
have a sense of direction aboutwhere to go in exploring these
things.
In Husband Material Academy, youhave a course and a process to
be able to answer thosequestions.
(14:33):
You have people with whom youcan process these things.
We have coaching calls everyweek where you can work with
somebody, and we can not onlyreveal what's underneath these
fantasies, but also heal what'sunderneath these fantasies, and
we're going to do that later inthe session.
We're going to demonstrate howdo we actually work with a
(14:56):
specific fantasy.
We're going to demonstrate howdo we actually work with a
specific fantasy.
There's one major insight thatI want to share for now that
makes so much sense.
It's actually not from the HMAcourse.
It's from the Healing fromSexual Abuse course.
(15:16):
It's one of the bonus coursesthat you can get if you sign up
this weekend and it comes frommy friend, doug Carpenter.
It's also in the HusbandMaterial podcast episode.
Sexual Arousal vs Sexual Desire.
If you want to understand yourfantasies and what arouses you,
(15:37):
you need to learn the differencebetween sexual arousal and
sexual desire.
Sexual arousal is what yourbody craves.
Sexual desire is what yourheart longs for.
Sexual arousal is based onstimulation automatic reactions
(15:57):
triggers.
Arousal is based on stimulationautomatic reactions triggers.
Sexual desire is based on thetype of intimacy and affection
you truly want, not just whatturns you on.
Sexual arousal is based onphysical connections.
Sexual desire is based on aheart connection what arouses
you.
(16:17):
Can reveal what you desire, butit's actually not what you
desire.
Porn may arouse you, but it'snot what you really want.
Or, on the other hand, maybeyour wife doesn't necessarily
sexually arouse you, but she isthe person you desire.
This can be so helpful in somany areas of recovery, both
(16:37):
individually to say, okay, thisarouses me, but it's not what I
desire, and also relationallysaying to your wife perhaps, if
you're married, I desire you.
I'm not experiencing arousalwith you, but at a deep level, I
long for you.
So arousal is the surface levelof what we're experiencing.
(16:59):
It's just what your body craves.
Urges are what you want to do.
As a result of that, fantasiesare the stories that ignite your
imagination, and then,underneath those fantasies are
desires.
So much of our healing journeyis about discovering our desires
(17:20):
.
So, in order to help youdiscover your desires, I've got
a list here.
I'm going to put it on thescreen and I want you to come in
the chat and tell me, from agut level, what do you deeply
(17:48):
desire?
What do you deeply desire?
Look at this right-hand column.
Look at this right-hand column.
Acceptance, adventure,affirmations, authenticity,
beauty being chosen, beingdesired, being known, being
pursued, being noticed,belonging, care, certainty,
(18:08):
community connection, control,delight, escape, friendship,
home, honesty, honor, inclusion,intimacy, love, nurture, peace,
play, pleasure, power,protection, purpose, relief,
rest, safety, significance,strength, thrill, touch and
worth.
All of these things are good.
(18:28):
God created us to experiencethese.
That's why I call them divinedesires.
And these desires, when they arethwarted, can easily become
sexualized.
We settle for a symbolic,sexual version of what we desire
(18:51):
, and we desire all of them, butusually there are some that
stand out.
There are some desires that arejust so deep, because they've
(19:11):
been so neglected or unmet, thatit just feels like the core of
who you are is I need this.
And I know there's maybe adistinction between desires and
needs.
I see you all putting in whatyou desire.
Here Let me say that you may beat war with these desires.
You may feel weak or inferiorbecause you have these desires.
My friend, you're not weak,you're human.
(19:34):
Desire is part of who we are andwhen we distinguish between our
arousal and our desire, itreally helps us figure out, okay
, what to do.
Because a lot of you guys arethinking well, you know, I'll
never get what I desire, I can'thave what I desire.
Well, that may be true forarousal.
You may never get the.
(19:55):
You know the type of arousal itsimulates you.
But you can satisfy yourdesires.
You can get a deep level offulfillment and healing and
wholeness in what your heartlongs for, even if it's not what
your body craves.
So you guys are doing such agood job right now of just
(20:19):
naming your desires.
That's where we start withunderstanding our fantasies.
Here's where it getsinteresting.
You remember, in session one wedid the floss method and the
biggest question of the flossmethod is when have I felt this
way before?
Well, we are going to turn thatquestion upside down.
(20:41):
When you're analyzing yoursexual fantasies and your sexual
attractions that are really,really strong, you ask the
question when have I felt theopposite?
So once again, I'm going topull up this list of desires.
(21:03):
Think about that desire thatresonates most with you on the
right-hand column, and then, ifyou look at the left-hand column
, that's the opposite.
So, for example, the oppositeof pleasure is pain.
The opposite of certainty isuncertainty.
The opposite of acceptance isrejection.
The opposite of rest isexhaustion.
(21:28):
So take that desire, let's say,just for connection.
What's the opposite of thatDisconnection?
When have I felt that before?
Opposite of that Disconnection,when have I felt that before?
So, when you have what arousesyou at the surface level, find
the desire underneath it, at thesoul level, and then ask when
(21:50):
have I felt the opposite.
This is how you find the originstories behind your sexual
fantasies.
It's how you find the originstories behind your sexual
fantasies.
When have I felt the oppositeof what I desire?
So put in the chat what is theopposite of what you desire.
(22:13):
Okay, a lot of people sayingrejection, that's a huge one.
That's big.
For me too.
Rejection is huge.
Being abandoned Yeah's a hugeone.
That's big.
For me too, rejection is huge.
Being abandoned yeah.
Indifference, feeling weak,disrespected, unchosen, not
being known, isolation, contempt, feeling ugly, feeling unmanly.
(22:36):
What is different?
Yeah, no, play, no purpose, nopeace.
So now you can see how our painpoints and our pleasure points
(23:01):
are both revealing deeperstories, stories that we're
carrying in our bodies, storiesthat are coming out sideways
sexually.
Our attachments and compulsionsto porn are not primarily
sexual.
They're emotional, symbolizingwhat we desire.
(23:23):
When you can meet your desiresin a healthy, wholesome, healing
way, porn loses its power.
You don't need the arousal whenyou have the desire.
You guys are doing really goodwork right now.
(23:44):
What is standing out to you?
It's beginning to make sense.
Sometimes your sexual fantasymight involve something like
rejection or indifference, likein the fantasy, and there are
different reasons for that.
Sometimes that helps it feelreal, because you can't even
imagine what it would be like tonot experience those things
Like my sexual fantasy sometimesinvolved me being humiliated.
What's with that?
(24:06):
Sometimes it's because, byfantasizing about it, I have
some level of control or choiceabout it.
Rather than just having ithappen to me, I'm the one making
it happen.
There are lots of differentstorylines here.
I want to emphasize that thereis no single cause to any sexual
fantasy.
Rather, there are manycontributing factors.
(24:28):
You can't just look at oh, Ihad this childhood experience,
so, um, as a result of that, Ihave these sexual fantasies.
It's not always a directconnection.
It's more like a recipe thathas many different things
involved in it.
The more you study your story,the more you see different
contributors.
And this is important becausewe're not blaming our past,
(24:50):
we're not blaming our parents,we're not blaming our peers, or
we're not blaming porn, butrather we're naming how our
sexual development was shaped,how it got stunted, and always
having curiosity Because I mightthink I know where all this
stuff comes from, but there'salways more to learn.
We are now going to do a littlebit of work to help you get to
(25:17):
the core of your fantasy and tobe able to process the
experiences underneath it.
Here we go.
This is going to be anexperiential exercise that you
may or may not want toparticipate in.
You're welcome to simply watchor to come along for the ride.
(25:42):
In unit six of HMA, I teach myapproach to working with
triggers and fantasies andreally healing the wounds
underneath them, and it's calledolder brother coaching,
essentially, becoming the olderbrother to your inner child, to
(26:06):
the part of you that has thisfantasy, to the little boy who
first encountered porn or whofirst developed these fantasies.
How do you work with thatlittle boy?
How do you help him?
That's what I'm about to teachyou.
Older brother coachingessentially has three steps.
(26:26):
You got to locate the boy, lovethe boy and lead the boy.
Locate the boy, love the boyand lead the boy.
The first step is to locate theboy, which we've already been
starting to do.
Remember when I asked you whatdo you deeply desire?
And then, when have you feltthe opposite?
(26:46):
That's how you start to locatethe boy.
That's how you start to findout.
Who is it really?
Who has this sexual fantasy?
It's not the adult man, it's alittle boy.
So I want to invite you topicture that boy, to bring him
(27:11):
into your imagination, the onewho felt rejected or whose
desires were unmet.
Can you see him?
What do you see?
If you have this little boy inyour mind, whether he's a child,
(27:40):
teenager, maybe even an infant,how do you feel toward him?
Remember we asked this questionin session one.
If you feel anything other thanlove, I want to invite those
feelings to step aside so thatyou can enter in with sadness,
(28:01):
so you can enter in withcompassion, curiosity,
connection.
And if you are now in a placewhere you would like to spend
some time with that little boy,then in a moment you have a
(28:23):
chance to enter his world asyour current adult self.
Drake says he looks like alittle homeless kid.
Jim says he's so sad.
Dwayne says he's a kid sittingby himself in a class full of
kids.
B says in some ways he's tryingto be unnoticed.
(28:44):
Perry says I'm crying.
The next step is to love the boyas your current adult self.
Come to him Right now.
There's nothing to do, nothingto say.
I want you to approach him froma safe, comfortable distance.
(29:08):
If he's in a bedroom, maybe youwant to be on the outside of
the door.
Maybe knock on the door.
If he's in an open space, don'tcome too close.
Maybe get down on his level andwith no agenda, take a moment
to just be with him.
Just be with him and see whathappens.
(29:34):
And see what happens.
You may feel the urge to hughim.
You may feel the urge to saysomething.
Save that for later.
Just be with him.
Notice what you notice.
(30:00):
How is he reacting to you?
Is he afraid of you?
Is he eager and happy to seeyou?
Does he know who you are?
(30:20):
Just allow it to unfold.
If you want, you can ask theHoly Spirit to lead this process
and if he doesn't trust you,honor him and give him space.
Just be with him Right now.
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Your goal is not to fix him,not to teach him, not even to
save him, but to see him andknow him.
And as you go with the flow,what happens next?
(31:14):
What happens next?
Allow your imagination to runwith this.
What does this boy need fromyou right now?
If he feels unsafe, he needsprotection.
(31:40):
If he feels alone, he needsconnection.
You guys are doing so well.
Looking in the chat Beautifulwork.
(32:08):
There's so many chat messageshere that are amazing.
I'm just going to let it happen, and if you're feeling some
resistance to the kid withinyourself, just be aware of that.
(32:29):
That may be enough for today tostop there If you want to keep
going.
You can Remember that this kidhas not only been rejected or
(32:52):
wounded by people from the past.
He's also probably beenrejected by you.
Wounded by people from the past.
He's also probably beenrejected by you.
He's also probably been ignoredand abandoned, maybe even
abused by you.
You may want to apologize forhow you have treated this kid or
(33:21):
just been unaware of him.
If you're reaching the edge ofwhat you can handle, notice that
.
And if you want to keep going,you can go towards the third
step, which is lead the boy.
Do you locate the boy after youlove the boy?
Let me tell you how to lead theboy.
Do you locate the boy after youlove the boy?
Let me tell you how to lead theboy.
(33:43):
First, listen to him.
What is he saying to you?
He's not saying anything withhis words.
What is his body saying to you?
Just listen, rece, honest andcourageous.
(34:20):
If you want, you can repeatback what he's saying.
I hear you saying this,something as simple as that.
(34:43):
Some other responses.
If you need help with thiscould be that makes sense or you
know what's it like for you.
Is there anything he wants todo?
What does he want to do?
If you need space from you,give him space.
Is there anything he wants todo?
What does he want to do If heneeds space from you, give him
(35:03):
space.
If he needs to come close, lethim come close.
Does he want to play?
Does he want to hug?
If you're meeting him in thepast, does he want to come into
the present with you?
Would he like that?
(35:24):
Don't overthink it.
Just go with your gut.
What does he want to do?
If this isn't resonating,that's okay.
Whatever he wants to do, canyou join him?
(36:00):
A voice and a choice.
See if he might be open tosomething else from you and if
(36:28):
he's receptive, you may want togive him a blessing.
Maybe it's just the blessing ofyour eyes and eye contact.
Maybe it's the blessing of ahug.
Maybe it's the blessing ofwords that he needs to hear,
words that he desperately longsto hear.
Maybe you can just appreciatehim for allowing you to spend
(36:59):
this time together.
There's no formula for this.
Even if it doesn't make sense,go with it.
Let it happen If it feels rightand if you want to.
(37:38):
You can also notice if Jesus isthere with you.
See if you can sense hispresence.
Where is Jesus?
What is he saying?
(37:58):
What is he doing?
How is he relating to thatlittle boy?
If you need to stop, you canstop.
Sometimes Jesus can breakthrough that little boy in a way
(38:20):
that you or I cannot.
Even if this is not reallyworking out for you, it's giving
you a really accurate pictureof where you're getting stuck
and what the problem might be.
(38:40):
And if this is working for you,oh my goodness, keep going.
Don't overthink it.
You are using your imaginationto heal.
You are using your imaginationto heal.
Your imagination was hijackedby porn and unwanted sexual
(39:03):
attractions, but now it's beingredeemed and reclaimed by the
one who created it.
It's not a bad part of you.
It's a beautiful part of you.
Right now, you're using it tomeet your desires.
Now you're using it to meetyour desires.
If you feel like you're comingto a stopping point, that's
(39:29):
great.
If you want to keep going,that's great too.
I'm so glad you're here.
I'm so grateful for all of youwitnessing each other in this
(39:55):
moment.
We're creating new stories, newneural pathways in our
imaginations.
This experience was a kind offantasy in a way.
Right, it's a story you'reimagining.
It's igniting your imagination,and if you had a hard time with
it, that's okay.
That's why we're here.
That's why Husband MaterialAcademy exists to help you
(40:16):
through it.
That's why working withsomebody one-on-one, or any one
of our retreats can really help.
This is something that you cando with a coach, a therapist or
counselor.
It's also something that youmight be able to do on your own.
This is another tool for yourtoolbox today.
(40:39):
Locate the boy, love the boy,lead the boy.
It could be as simple as wow,I'm feeling so sexually
triggered.
Hello childhood, let's go calla friend.
It could be that simple.
(40:59):
This experience may not havetied up neatly in a bow.
Hopefully, this is going totake you into an environment, a
community, a process where youcan pick up from where you left
(41:21):
off.
Now you know a little bit moreabout what it looks like and
what it feels like to access thedeeply held feelings and
desires in our souls.
Our sexuality and ourspirituality is so connected.
(41:43):
The surface level, sexualthoughts and feelings, are like
the tip of the iceberg, andunderneath all of that.
There are these soul leveldesires.
A lot of you guys are sayingI'm in tears.
Some of you guys are saying I'min tears.
Some of you guys are saying I'mfeeling numb.
Thank you for sharing.
Thank you so much for stickingwith me through the entire
(42:04):
teaching.
This has been a preview ofHusband Material Academy.
We only open up the doors toHMA twice a year, in January and
also in July.
So if you would like to joinHMA or learn what it's all about
, go to joinhmacom and alwaysremember my friend you are God's
beloved son.
In you he is well-pleased.
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