January 27, 2025 • 31 mins
What is sextortion, and how can we guard against it? Chris McKenna shares the dark reality of sextortion, why men (especially young men) are most vulnerable to being sextorted, and what we can do to prevent it.
For more information, read this article:
What Is Sextortion? A Prevention And Response Guide For Families
Chris McKenna is the founder of Protect Young Eyes. He is a leading digital safety advocate, advising legislators and emerging tech companies. His impactful 2019 testimony before the US Senate initiated a series of hearings to further online child protection policy.
Under Chris's guidance, the Protect Young Eyes team conducts presentations worldwide to parents, professionals, and schools, They gained recognition by being featured in the Childhood 2.0 movie. The Protect Young Eyes website, courses, and private parent community show caregivers how to prepare and protect their children in digital spaces.
Resources For Parents:
- Start here! (Do these 3 things)
- 5 Habits of a Tech-Ready Home (Course)
- The Table (Private Community)
Take the Husband Material Journey...
- Step 1: Listen to this podcast or watch on YouTube
- Step 2: Join the private Husband Material Community
- Step 3: Take the free mini-course: How To Outgrow Porn
- Step 4: Try the all-in-one program: Husband Material Academy
Thanks for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Today's conversation with ChrisMcKenna is full of statistics
(00:23):
and wisdom and advice about howto guard against the threat of
sextortion.
So if your particular versionof sexually acting out has
included sexting or webcamming,or you want to protect your kids
from some of these things,listen to this whole episode.
Chris is full of wisdom andthis is just one of the topics
(00:44):
that you can learn a whole lotmore about at Protect Young Eyes
.
Today, we get to hear fromChris McKenna, who's the founder
of Protect Young Eyes, andwe're specifically talking about
sextortion.
Welcome to the show, chris.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Hey Drew.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Really, you know, I'm lookingforward and I also say that with
I really wish this wasn't atopic we had to talk about.
Can we just erase this issuefrom planet earth and make it
something that we don't need tohave a podcast about?
Can we please do that Right?
Speaker 1 (01:14):
That would be best and, unfortunately, since we
can't do that, the best thing wecan do is informed and learn
some of the ways that we canprotect ourselves and others
against it.
So, chris, why are you sopassionate about this topic?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yeah, you know there's a whole bunch of issues.
And, drew, to go back, I wasexposed to porn as a young boy.
It led to all kinds ofunhealthy, unnecessary
curiosities inside of me that mybrain just wasn't ready for.
Right, this is when we're in ananalog version, mostly of
pornography, and then youevolved to the spot where you're
sneaking VHS of fuzzy Cinemaxand things.
(01:54):
But that's like the extent ofit.
Right, fast forward to theinternet.
Right, internet comes out andthat allows me then to have this
quote, secret issue that I'msure many men can relate to
right, that triple A engine ofaccessible and anonymous and
affordable right All in our face, right there.
And that became a real problemfor my life and I, through
coveted eyes and accountability,was able to put that behind me.
(02:15):
But then, about 10 years later,I watch us put that monster in
little devices in kids' pockets.
So all of that is a backstory.
To say, protect Young Eyes cameout of what I felt was a gap
that existed between amazingparents and amazing kids and
technologies that really weren'tdesigned for them and really
(02:37):
don't care about those amazingfamilies and those amazing kids.
So I started to educate andinform parents of my own youth
group back in 2015.
That led to the launch of awebsite, and now I have a team
of presenters.
We do hundreds of talks amazingkids.
So I started to educate andinform parents of my own youth
group back in like 2015.
That led to the launch of awebsite, and now I have a team
of presenters.
We do hundreds of talks.
So now I'm doing full-time.
I left a good job that I wentinto at Covenant Eyes actually,
I went to lead their digitalmarketing department for a while
(02:57):
, drew.
That's actually where I cameacross you and your name
initially, and now I'm doingthis about a year now into doing
this full-time again educatinglegislative work, testifying,
traveling and speaking and thesearen't issues just for kids.
The name protect young eyes wascreated to help families with
young kids, but when you thinkback to when this started about
(03:17):
10 years ago, right now we'retalking about things that have
been around that well into yourmid-30s now, and technology
doesn't really care whetheryou're 13 or 30.
There is a business design,there are algorithms that
identify our vulnerabilities ashumans and have a way of well
pressing into those, no matterwhat your age, and so I find
(03:39):
myself in conversations withmoms that are trying to protect
their kids, with dads who aretrying to get out of porn, with
wives who are sometimes marriedto a spouse who maybe is
struggling with porn, like allthese different angles.
Educators who are strugglingwith kids in their class who
don't know how to handle theirdevices.
So all these audiences becausetechnology is a bit of an equal
(04:00):
opportunity destroyer at times.
So that's a long-windedbackstory, but I think all of it
just adds color and context tosort of the last 20 or so years
and why I feel so passionateabout this.
It was my own issue.
I've got my own kids.
I'm just watching so many partsof our world falling prey to
the lie that everythingtechnology is better and it's
(04:22):
just not that everythingtechnology is better, and it's
just not.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
One of the issues coming up is sextortion.
How would you define this term?
Speaker 2 (04:31):
As a transaction.
Sextortion is when somebodygets access to compromising
digital information about us,mostly inappropriate or explicit
videos or images that we havesent because we've believed that
somebody was good and was goingto have an exchange with us.
(04:53):
So they lured us into sendingsomething right.
We sent that thing, whatever,and then we discovered that that
person who made me a promise isa criminal network called the
Yahoo Boys over in WesternAfrica, for example, which is
pretty common.
I'll talk about that in just aminute.
And now they're extorting me,promising or threatening, I
guess, to send that information,that compromising information,
(05:14):
to people that I know and love.
They've already done all theirresearch on my profile.
They know who my family is.
They start name dropping, theystart talking about where I'm
going to college or if I'm ateenager, or scholarship I want
to get, I want to go.
So they're going to send it tomy coaches.
Like all these things prey onour fears in order to send money
, and that's so.
Extortion right is usingleverage over someone to get
(05:36):
financial resources out of themor something out of them.
Right is sextortion becauseit's attached to an explicit
piece of information that theyhave with us that we, out of
shame, don't want anyone to see,and so they threaten, and we
send money, and it goes on andon and on.
That's the transactional partof it, like that's what it is
sort of by definition.
(05:57):
Well, over 90% of the time thatsextortion occurs, it is a
young male, a man of some kind.
That is the one that's beingsextorted, that's the victim,
because this is primarily whatI'll call a limbic system issue.
So this gets into the why.
There's a neurological reasonwhy men, young men, teen boys,
(06:23):
are more vulnerable to the issueof sextortion than others,
right?
So our brains have threefunctional areas, drew, as I'm
sure, just in dealing withaddiction and pornography and
other issues, these are topicsthat your audience, listeners,
those who have taken your course, are probably at least loosely
familiar with.
(06:43):
Right, we have three functionalareas.
If I could just summarize them,we have the part of the brain
that keeps us alive, the part ofthe brain that wants us to stay
connected to others, like ourspecies, and then the part that
is thinking and processing andanalyzing and making logical
decisions, right?
So?
Reptilian, limbic and neocortex.
Those are the three parts.
(07:04):
Now, fortunately, the reptilianpart of our brain is just
working all the time, we don'thave to think much about it, I
don't have to tell my brain tokeep my heart beating, I don't
have to tell my brain to releaseneurochemicals to do whatever,
right.
But then there's that part ofthe brain, the limbic system,
that is a mammalian.
Stronger in mammals that wantto be around others like them,
right, so pods, groups ofanimals in the animal world.
(07:29):
But for us humans, right.
And this is the part of thebrain that, for teens during
adolescence, explodes withactivity.
Right, reptilians always beenthere, but there's an explosion
of relational desire, connection.
Where do I belong?
Who are my friends?
Who do I want to hang out with?
This is why young people pressaway from their parents and
press toward their peers becauseof limbic activity, and that's
(07:54):
a good thing.
We want to be connected toothers.
There's a relational part ofbeing a human that's better for
us both professionally,personally.
We need to be connected toothers and that's the part
that's on fire duringadolescence.
And it's also the part of thebrain where our dopamine reward
system lives.
Right, all of these impulses,right, it's where fight or
(08:17):
flight or freeze, all of thoseimpulses, those feelings.
That's the feeling center ofthe brain and because, kind of
anciently look at us as our sortof createdness, however long
you think that is.
We feel things and act a wholelot faster than we think about
things logically right.
So we respond to our feelingsbecause in a fight or flight,
(08:39):
sort of, am I going to die orlive in this situation, I think
God made us to want to feel andrespond quickly to things, right
.
So there's a long-winded way ofsaying our feelings often cause
actions long before we'vethought about the logic or the
goodness in those actions.
And this is where sextortionbecomes so toxic, because if
(09:03):
somebody whether it's a hotfemale or whoever it is you
think that that person is goingto send you something that is
going to charge up your dopaminereward system and you're
motivated to get that, you'llsend something long before
you've thought about whetherit's a good idea.
Like I said, it's 95% malesbecause when it comes to the
(09:27):
typical scheme, it's typicallysomebody pretending to be a hot
female of some kind.
I'm stereotyping a little bit.
These are just the cases, right.
As I talked to, nick make thenational center for missing and
exploited children or lawenforcement.
This is the typical transaction, but it doesn't always have to
be this way, because if they cansee things in your profile,
then they will customize thelure according to who you are.
(09:52):
And these networks these arecriminal networks.
Telegram is an app that I'm suresome of your listeners are
familiar with, but those who arewatching this?
Telegram has been in the newsrecently because it is an
end-to-end encrypted, basicallycriminal, network of information
because nobody sees anythinginto it.
There's all kinds of childsexual abuse material and
(10:14):
illegal content that is beingshared in there all the time,
all over the world, and so it'sunder a lot of scrutiny right
now for not doing its part toremove, once it even knows about
it, to remove this content.
And the reason I'm sharing thatis because these criminal
networks that I'm referring toDrew, literally networks of
people that exist in order toidentify vulnerable, primarily
(10:36):
American teens and young men,because we're on our devices all
the time.
There are playbooks 100, 150,200 page playbooks that give
step-by-step instructions as tohow to carry out a sextortion
transaction that are shared allover on Telegram and all these
(10:57):
other encrypted networks thatare out there.
What to say, how to say it, whatactions to take Now with AI,
what to do with images, how youcan fake voices so much that you
can do with deep fakes, rightTo pretend to be somebody and
then to scan someone's profileand see where their friends are
and threaten and do a countdownin the DMs to threat, right.
It's all based on fear.
(11:18):
If you can get somebody'scortisol fear response to kick
in, they'll do almost anythingbecause the brain doesn't want
to live in fear, it wants to getout and get relief, and so if
you think relief is sendingmoney, then that's exactly what
you'll do.
Now, that's not what you shoulddo, but that's what the brain
wants to do.
So it's a long setup to theissue, but I think again, it's
(11:38):
important to understand what andwhy, so that we can step back
and go whoa, whoa, limbic systemPause.
Let me think about what's aboutto happen and do something
different.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
And for me it was really helpful to hear a
specific example of how that canplay out.
Can you tell the story of whathappened to Jordan DeMay?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
I'm in Michigan and Jordan is a story that many
people around the country, notjust in Michigan now, are aware
of Drew because of what hashappened sort of in the wake of
Jordan's story.
So Jordan was a senior in highschool football player,
homecoming King.
(12:20):
He's a great guy with tons ofpotential, right, and knew he
was going to college right, hadgreat loving parents, right.
I know his father, john, whoactually had done a lot of the
things that we teach aroundprotecting kids and, you know,
having all the rightconversations and all those
kinds of things.
And one night on Instagramreceived a message from somebody
(12:41):
who kind of looked like afriend, convinced him that he
was someone he could trust.
And Jordan sent a compromisingvideo and within three or so
hours had felt so much justpressure.
They were extorting him formoney, they were threatening him
with all kinds of actionsaround what was going to be
(13:04):
shared.
They did all the typical thingsthat are in these playbooks
counting down, telling him itdoesn't matter if he dies, it
doesn't matter, we just pay us,pay us and Jordan ended up dying
by suicide that night, likewithin three hours, kind of
start to end, of this sextortionscheme from taking place.
They were actually able toidentify three individuals who
(13:24):
were a part of this.
Two of them are brothers andthey were from a network called
the Yahoo Boys.
They primarily operate out ofNigeria.
They're in Western Africa, butthey're all over and they were
able to extradite them.
This is what's unique aboutthis story where they found them
.
The FBI extradited them to theUnited States.
(13:45):
Two of them, I think it's beenrecently.
The brothers were sentenced to17 years in prison and I know
that because the federal courtwhere it happened is here in my
hometown, here in Michigan.
I've met John, his father, knowJohn and now we're in kind of a
connection with each other,trying to do more in this space
to raise awareness.
Obviously a tragic story, butit's not an uncommon story right
(14:08):
now.
Drew, that's the worst possibleoutcome.
I'm glad that they identifiedand put him in prison, but that
doesn't bring Jordan back.
That's actually quite rare.
That hasn't happened in any ofthe other documented sextortion
schemes Gavin and Walker andothers.
If you were to, you were tofind them.
You know representative Guffeydown in South Carolina whose son
was sextorted, and same sameoutcome.
(14:31):
Right, they haven't found them.
So on the you know other side ofthat, there's sometimes a
glimmer of hope where we canstop the transaction.
Literally, people will belistening to this anytime, but
three weeks prior to thisconversation that you and I are
having, I received a franticmessage from someone in my
community whose son had slippedinto a sextortion scheme.
(14:55):
They were right in the middleof it and they wanted to know
exactly what to do, and that'swhere I think you had found what
we had written about this.
There are ways to prevent thisfrom happening.
Right, just in terms ofguarding our own privacy and
steps that we can take.
Again, whether you're 14 or 35or whatever, right, there's some
steps that we can take toprevent this issue.
(15:15):
Also, just kind ofunderstanding the issue, like
we've talked about here.
But then let's say it happensfor whatever reason it happens,
there's also things that youneed to do in that moment.
Also, things like I worked withthis father and his son on,
which is specifically to cut offconversations immediately.
Like you cut off theconversation right then and
(15:35):
there, no matter what they'rethreatening.
You cut it off Because what'sthe worst that can happen Right
now?
They're preying on fears.
What's the worst that canhappen?
The worst that can happen Rightnow, they're preying on fears.
What's the worst that canhappen?
The worst that can happen isthey could send it, they could
follow through on the threat,right.
But now we have, I think, as asociety, a bit of plausible
deniability, right, because ofgenerative AI and because of
(15:56):
deep fakes and because of thesethings that can be used against
us, you kind of have the yeah,that's not me.
I mean this will sound sort oflike a double standard.
Am I telling people to lie ifthat's what happens?
No, but I'm just saying that Ithink, as a society, the fact
that somebody has somethinginappropriate shared about them
with others sadly isn't as bigof a shock as it used to be when
(16:20):
you step back and think aboutit.
That's really what I'm tryingto communicate here.
But in the moment, the fear isI don't want that to happen.
Right, your cortisol is makingyour decisions, but when you
step back and go, wait a minutethis is what I used to do at
Ernst Young, right, when I wasin risk consulting you always
asked in a situation what's theworst that could happen, and
then you put controls in placeto get that back from the worst
(16:41):
to the.
This is an acceptable outcomeand I think that's what we have
to do here, what's the worstthat can happen.
So we always tell and this isbased on law enforcement and
other counsel you always stop.
You never pay a penny, no matterwhat they've threatened, you
don't pay and you wait them out.
Because here's what's probablygoing on.
They probably sent out ahundred random messages right in
(17:06):
order to identify 10 who flinchand within the 10, they're
looking for one that will pay up.
To use a fishing analogy, rightIn that moment there's likely a
number of individuals who arequote on the hook at that point
in time and all they care aboutis the money.
They're going to focus on theperson that's paying attention
(17:27):
to them and seems to be reacting, who's the most afraid, who's
the one that's engaging, andthey will quickly move on.
Most times I can't promise anyoutcome, but they'll quickly
move on if you're notcooperative, because time is
money to them.
Now, it sounds so transactionalat that point, but it is.
That's why I'm trying to getthe conversation into the
(17:48):
thinking part of the brain andget it out of the feeling part
of the brain, and when you getto the thinking part, you're
like well, no, I'm not sendingyou anything, just go away,
focus on someone else, you blockthem, you stop, right.
You take screenshots ofeverything.
You don't send them any money.
You report them throughwhatever app you happen to be in
and then you delete everythingthat's there, right?
(18:09):
And then, if you are connectedto anybody say a significant
other or anybody else you makesure all of their accounts are
private too, so they're notdragged into this, that their
information can't be weaponizedagainst them in some way because
of their association with you.
I tell parents it's sometimes agood idea just to delete their
kid's account.
I don't care what historyyou've got on Snapchat or
(18:29):
Instagram or whatever.
Delete the account and startover Again.
Weigh the risk, right.
Weigh it.
I would rather you just startfresh than risk keeping that
account around, right?
Sometimes they've got yourphone number, so you change your
phone number.
These are things, right?
You can share in the show noteswith these 10 specific steps
right, that you can take in thatmoment, because you need to
(18:52):
engage the thinking part and getout of the feeling part and
follow the checklist.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Right and Chris, you have put together some really
great checklists and an articleon the Protect Young Eyes
website, so I'm going to sharethe link to that as well.
Some of the men in ourcommunity are specifically
struggling with the temptationto send naked pictures of
themselves or to get onto awebcam conversation where they
(19:20):
are on a live video and theyhave this unwanted behavior that
they really want to overcome,and yet it just feels
irresistible to be sharing theirbodies and to be looking at the
bodies of others, live orthrough images.
(19:40):
My heart really breaks forthese guys.
What counsel or advice wouldyou give to somebody who's
putting themselves at risk ofbeing sextorted?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
give to somebody who's putting themselves at risk
of being sextorted.
Well, you're speaking mylanguage, which is why it was
important to kind of lay outthat history of where I've come
from, because every single timewe get online, whether you're
just a participant in somethingor a parent in something or
whatever, there's a risk thatyou have to be thinking about,
right Again, I just think it'salways helpful, before you click
(20:14):
on something, to ask thequestion what could go wrong?
What could go wrong?
Let me say it again, what couldgo wrong?
And if you come to theconclusion that the worst
possible outcome has aprobability that you're not
comfortable with, then you haveto accept the risk that comes
with that.
(20:34):
And that's the thing about thequote the internet, right, this
worldwide web.
We don't even talk about thethree letters, the WWW, anymore
because they're not necessary,but like let's never forget,
like when I'm speaking to kidsand teens and we do
presentations all over, like weremind them that every single
thing you do on a device hasthree letters World Wide Web, it
(20:54):
was named.
The thing that we have toconsider every single time we
get online that we're connectedto the world in some way and you
can feel invincible and you canfeel like you don't have to
worry about that anymore whenyou're an adult, but it doesn't
change the fact you're stillconnected to a lot of people who
really don't care about you.
You're connected to a lot ofplaces that weren't designed
(21:16):
with your uniqueness, theawesome ways in which God made
you and some of the unfortunatevulnerabilities that we have.
I guess what I would say is, ifthat's the temptation, then
there's three ways to go aboutit.
Right, there's the pray it away.
There's a spiritual componenthere and, yes, we do pray
against the powers of darknessthat are all around us.
(21:38):
Right, but you can't pray awaysome of these problems.
It's necessary, but you can'tdo that alone.
We also have to bring in bothrelational and technical that's
like the three-prongedpowerhouse here against these
things and just constantly besurrounding ourselves with
individuals who are going tohelp us.
Ask the what could go wrongquestion, to engage the thinking
(22:00):
part of our brain before we goto a spot where we're only
listening to the feeling part ofour brain, because we are
really bad governors for our ownbehavior, right, why?
Because we're feelings drivenand there's survival reason for
that.
But everything online, everysocial media platform,
everything that we love aboutbeing online is based on our
(22:24):
feelings, right?
It's based on a feature thatmaximizes the feeling we get out
of it, right?
So there's a reason whySnapchat and Instagram release
the features that they do.
There's a reason why webcamspull on us the way that we do,
because they're tapping intoancient created things that
(22:45):
we're supposed to be attractedto, that we're supposed to want.
We're supposed to want to seethings that excite us sexually.
We're supposed to want to beconnected to others like us and,
deep down, we're supposed to beconnected to others, but for
the right reasons.
Right?
Is it a loneliness that'spulling us into those sorts of
(23:08):
spaces?
Because technology will do areally good job of solving that
for you.
So that's where the why and thefeeling, all these things are
interrelated.
We are complex beings.
We are mind, body and spirit.
You can't just tackle it bysaying, well, I'm not going to
go there, I'm going to filterthat out.
Well, that's a technical partof it, yes, but there's always a
(23:29):
way around that.
So who's the logical voice,when your feelings are out of
control, to speak into that,right?
So it's just, it's kind of allof those things.
It was a long-winded way toanswer your question, because
it's a complex issue and everyperson is going to have sort of
their own reasons why they'redrawn to those places, why
(23:53):
they're drawn to those places,which is why your platform
exists to give you know men, asafe spot to unpack all the
reasons why we feel and do thethings that we do, which is just
a awesome but complicated messof thread that you got to undo
one little thread at a time.
But I know I tend to live sortof in that camp and this is what
we tell parents all the time.
Right, there's a spiritualcomponent and, yes, we pray for
the hearts of our kiddos, or wepray for our own hearts to be
(24:17):
directed in the way that theyshould go, but we've got to
stack a bunch of practicalthings on top of that, otherwise
the opportunities are alwaysgoing to be there.
Yeah, yeah, can you say alittle bit more about how you
(24:46):
help parents navigate theseissues?
Information that we share aboutOur most popular presentation
is Digital Discernment, the FiveHabits of a Tech-Ready Home.
After hundreds of these and allover the world, there are
certain habits that, when thoseare done consistently and
persistently, you tend to haveyoung people who learn how to
(25:06):
use technology in good, positive, god-honoring ways.
It's modeling the rightbehaviors, pursuing authentic
connection, encouraging work andplay, delaying addictive
technology and diligentlypreventing harm.
And there are like microtactics in each of those five
sort of macro habits that wetalk about, just to give parents
really practical things thatthey can do.
(25:27):
So that's our livepresentations.
We also have an on-demandversion of that that parents can
take, because everybody cancome to a live talk or schools
can't always bring us in, sothat's what can be done.
But we have a massive amount offree information, self-help
kind of information.
That's how you found us rightIn this post.
We have app reviews, devicereviews, how to set things up,
(25:48):
how to put some of those layersof protection in place, right,
some of the software andhardware that works right.
So that's the learning part,right.
So you need to be live,on-demand, self-directed.
All of that is available andthat's on our website,
protectyoungeyescom.
Then we also have a community.
So, like you right, the powerof community of relating Some of
these issues are difficult.
(26:09):
You know, technology is not asimple thing to unwind in the
lives of our kids, right, it'son their school issued devices,
it's on the thing that we justwant to know where they are at
their friend's house, yet italso gives them access to all
these other things.
How do we control that?
Right?
So we have a community calledthe table.
We want people to come to thetable to have these
conversations.
We built this.
It's not a Facebook group.
(26:30):
It's not any kind of Instagramthread or anything.
It's our own private communitythat we've built.
That we own.
We don't have to put littleasterisks on things like we do
on Instagram when you talk aboutcertain topics.
I actually got banned for threemonths on Instagram because of a
post I did specifically onsextortion and specifically on a
(26:51):
case where it wasn't Jordan'scase, specifically his situation
, but I said the word suicide inthe reel that I made for
Instagram, and I was restrictedfor three months where I wasn't
allowed to do collaborationsbecause I said a word that is
against their communityguidelines.
Right, it's that kind ofnonsense, right?
Your Instagram is the reasonJordan DeMay is no longer with
(27:14):
us and yet they won't allow meto educate parents and others on
this issue.
The irony there is just sosickening.
But that's why we built our owncommunity, because a lot of
these other digital spaces havea whole different agenda than we
do.
So it's through those twoprimary sort of ways that we
(27:34):
want to educate and equip andmake sure that when you've got
hard questions, you don't knowwhat a router is or what it's
good for, or what screen time ison an iPhone which is good for
14-year-olds and 40-year-olds,right to filter out some stuff.
Then we want to be a spot whereyou can get some of that help.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
That's so awesome so you can learn more at
protectyoungeyescom, and thereis a wealth of resources and
community and, chris, I'm reallyexcited about what you've built
For you personally.
What is your favorite thingabout freedom from porn?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
It's having my brain back right.
If I could just be realpractical for a minute.
You know it's because, man, Ican look back on things again
and the moment you see it's sofuzzy you just don't see the
world the way that it's supposedto be seen, right.
I remember a very specificmoment One of my children I
(28:32):
won't say any more specifics,but one of my children.
I was specifically in charge ofgiving this child a bath, their
evening bath.
They were an infant and Iremember being annoyed because I
would rather have been lookingat porn, and in the moment I
didn't really realize what thatmeant.
(28:54):
I was just annoyed because pornis a selfish bastard.
It only wants your fullattention, it only wants all of
you, emotionally,psychologically, relationally,
spiritually, if you can call it.
It wants every piece of that,the brain right, and I was
(29:15):
willing to trade that time witha child, at least in my head.
I wanted to right.
And so there's a clarity thatcomes from things.
When you remove thatsupercharged monster, not that I
mean the impulses are rightwhen they're directed in
honorable ways, but when it'ssupercharged and weaponized
(29:36):
against us, it does a lot of badthings to our decision-making.
So, man, there's a clarity.
There's a.
You know just obviously thefreedom.
Use that word, but I thinkthat's, that's a part of it.
You cannot be your full max,thriving self while also looking
(29:56):
at pornography.
It's impossible.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
And, on the other hand, it is possible to thrive
and to be your authentic self,also to be safe online.
So thank you for helping us dothat.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
My pleasure.
I know not everyone thatlistens is a parent, but chances
are whether it's helpful foryou which I hope some of it is
for those listening or watching.
I also bet that many of youlistening or watching, even
without children of your ownhave young people who you can
influence, and sometimes thebest teacher for us is to be a
(30:32):
teacher for others right, and solearn and maybe share with
nephews or nieces or othersright that are within your
circle of influence, and I thinksome of that splashes back on
us to help our own digitalhabits to go.
Yep, I'm motivated to choosedifferently because I want that
for them too.
(30:52):
So there you go.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Chris, thank you so much, and, guys, I would highly
recommend protectyoungeyescom.
Always remember you are God'sbeloved son.
In you.
He is well-pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Today's conversation with ChrisMcKenna is full of statistics
(00:23):
and wisdom and advice about howto guard against the threat of
sextortion.
So if your particular versionof sexually acting out has
included sexting or webcamming,or you want to protect your kids
from some of these things,listen to this whole episode.
Chris is full of wisdom andthis is just one of the topics
(00:44):
that you can learn a whole lotmore about at Protect Young Eyes
.
Today, we get to hear fromChris McKenna, who's the founder
of Protect Young Eyes, andwe're specifically talking about
sextortion.
Welcome to the show, chris.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Hey Drew.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Really, you know, I'm lookingforward and I also say that with
I really wish this wasn't atopic we had to talk about.
Can we just erase this issuefrom planet earth and make it
something that we don't need tohave a podcast about?
Can we please do that Right?
Speaker 1 (01:14):
That would be best and, unfortunately, since we
can't do that, the best thing wecan do is informed and learn
some of the ways that we canprotect ourselves and others
against it.
So, chris, why are you sopassionate about this topic?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Yeah, you know there's a whole bunch of issues.
And, drew, to go back, I wasexposed to porn as a young boy.
It led to all kinds ofunhealthy, unnecessary
curiosities inside of me that mybrain just wasn't ready for.
Right, this is when we're in ananalog version, mostly of
pornography, and then youevolved to the spot where you're
sneaking VHS of fuzzy Cinemaxand things.
(01:54):
But that's like the extent ofit.
Right, fast forward to theinternet.
Right, internet comes out andthat allows me then to have this
quote, secret issue that I'msure many men can relate to
right, that triple A engine ofaccessible and anonymous and
affordable right All in our face, right there.
And that became a real problemfor my life and I, through
coveted eyes and accountability,was able to put that behind me.
(02:15):
But then, about 10 years later,I watch us put that monster in
little devices in kids' pockets.
So all of that is a backstory.
To say, protect Young Eyes cameout of what I felt was a gap
that existed between amazingparents and amazing kids and
technologies that really weren'tdesigned for them and really
(02:37):
don't care about those amazingfamilies and those amazing kids.
So I started to educate andinform parents of my own youth
group back in 2015.
That led to the launch of awebsite, and now I have a team
of presenters.
We do hundreds of talks amazingkids.
So I started to educate andinform parents of my own youth
group back in like 2015.
That led to the launch of awebsite, and now I have a team
of presenters.
We do hundreds of talks.
So now I'm doing full-time.
I left a good job that I wentinto at Covenant Eyes actually,
I went to lead their digitalmarketing department for a while
(02:57):
, drew.
That's actually where I cameacross you and your name
initially, and now I'm doingthis about a year now into doing
this full-time again educatinglegislative work, testifying,
traveling and speaking and thesearen't issues just for kids.
The name protect young eyes wascreated to help families with
young kids, but when you thinkback to when this started about
(03:17):
10 years ago, right now we'retalking about things that have
been around that well into yourmid-30s now, and technology
doesn't really care whetheryou're 13 or 30.
There is a business design,there are algorithms that
identify our vulnerabilities ashumans and have a way of well
pressing into those, no matterwhat your age, and so I find
(03:39):
myself in conversations withmoms that are trying to protect
their kids, with dads who aretrying to get out of porn, with
wives who are sometimes marriedto a spouse who maybe is
struggling with porn, like allthese different angles.
Educators who are strugglingwith kids in their class who
don't know how to handle theirdevices.
So all these audiences becausetechnology is a bit of an equal
(04:00):
opportunity destroyer at times.
So that's a long-windedbackstory, but I think all of it
just adds color and context tosort of the last 20 or so years
and why I feel so passionateabout this.
It was my own issue.
I've got my own kids.
I'm just watching so many partsof our world falling prey to
the lie that everythingtechnology is better and it's
(04:22):
just not that everythingtechnology is better, and it's
just not.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
One of the issues coming up is sextortion.
How would you define this term?
Speaker 2 (04:31):
As a transaction.
Sextortion is when somebodygets access to compromising
digital information about us,mostly inappropriate or explicit
videos or images that we havesent because we've believed that
somebody was good and was goingto have an exchange with us.
(04:53):
So they lured us into sendingsomething right.
We sent that thing, whatever,and then we discovered that that
person who made me a promise isa criminal network called the
Yahoo Boys over in WesternAfrica, for example, which is
pretty common.
I'll talk about that in just aminute.
And now they're extorting me,promising or threatening, I
guess, to send that information,that compromising information,
(05:14):
to people that I know and love.
They've already done all theirresearch on my profile.
They know who my family is.
They start name dropping, theystart talking about where I'm
going to college or if I'm ateenager, or scholarship I want
to get, I want to go.
So they're going to send it tomy coaches.
Like all these things prey onour fears in order to send money
, and that's so.
Extortion right is usingleverage over someone to get
(05:36):
financial resources out of themor something out of them.
Right is sextortion becauseit's attached to an explicit
piece of information that theyhave with us that we, out of
shame, don't want anyone to see,and so they threaten, and we
send money, and it goes on andon and on.
That's the transactional partof it, like that's what it is
sort of by definition.
(05:57):
Well, over 90% of the time thatsextortion occurs, it is a
young male, a man of some kind.
That is the one that's beingsextorted, that's the victim,
because this is primarily whatI'll call a limbic system issue.
So this gets into the why.
There's a neurological reasonwhy men, young men, teen boys,
(06:23):
are more vulnerable to the issueof sextortion than others,
right?
So our brains have threefunctional areas, drew, as I'm
sure, just in dealing withaddiction and pornography and
other issues, these are topicsthat your audience, listeners,
those who have taken your course, are probably at least loosely
familiar with.
(06:43):
Right, we have three functionalareas.
If I could just summarize them,we have the part of the brain
that keeps us alive, the part ofthe brain that wants us to stay
connected to others, like ourspecies, and then the part that
is thinking and processing andanalyzing and making logical
decisions, right?
So?
Reptilian, limbic and neocortex.
Those are the three parts.
(07:04):
Now, fortunately, the reptilianpart of our brain is just
working all the time, we don'thave to think much about it, I
don't have to tell my brain tokeep my heart beating, I don't
have to tell my brain to releaseneurochemicals to do whatever,
right.
But then there's that part ofthe brain, the limbic system,
that is a mammalian.
Stronger in mammals that wantto be around others like them,
right, so pods, groups ofanimals in the animal world.
(07:29):
But for us humans, right.
And this is the part of thebrain that, for teens during
adolescence, explodes withactivity.
Right, reptilians always beenthere, but there's an explosion
of relational desire, connection.
Where do I belong?
Who are my friends?
Who do I want to hang out with?
This is why young people pressaway from their parents and
press toward their peers becauseof limbic activity, and that's
(07:54):
a good thing.
We want to be connected toothers.
There's a relational part ofbeing a human that's better for
us both professionally,personally.
We need to be connected toothers and that's the part
that's on fire duringadolescence.
And it's also the part of thebrain where our dopamine reward
system lives.
Right, all of these impulses,right, it's where fight or
(08:17):
flight or freeze, all of thoseimpulses, those feelings.
That's the feeling center ofthe brain and because, kind of
anciently look at us as our sortof createdness, however long
you think that is.
We feel things and act a wholelot faster than we think about
things logically right.
So we respond to our feelingsbecause in a fight or flight,
(08:39):
sort of, am I going to die orlive in this situation, I think
God made us to want to feel andrespond quickly to things, right
.
So there's a long-winded way ofsaying our feelings often cause
actions long before we'vethought about the logic or the
goodness in those actions.
And this is where sextortionbecomes so toxic, because if
(09:03):
somebody whether it's a hotfemale or whoever it is you
think that that person is goingto send you something that is
going to charge up your dopaminereward system and you're
motivated to get that, you'llsend something long before
you've thought about whetherit's a good idea.
Like I said, it's 95% malesbecause when it comes to the
(09:27):
typical scheme, it's typicallysomebody pretending to be a hot
female of some kind.
I'm stereotyping a little bit.
These are just the cases, right.
As I talked to, nick make thenational center for missing and
exploited children or lawenforcement.
This is the typical transaction, but it doesn't always have to
be this way, because if they cansee things in your profile,
then they will customize thelure according to who you are.
(09:52):
And these networks these arecriminal networks.
Telegram is an app that I'm suresome of your listeners are
familiar with, but those who arewatching this?
Telegram has been in the newsrecently because it is an
end-to-end encrypted, basicallycriminal, network of information
because nobody sees anythinginto it.
There's all kinds of childsexual abuse material and
(10:14):
illegal content that is beingshared in there all the time,
all over the world, and so it'sunder a lot of scrutiny right
now for not doing its part toremove, once it even knows about
it, to remove this content.
And the reason I'm sharing thatis because these criminal
networks that I'm referring toDrew, literally networks of
people that exist in order toidentify vulnerable, primarily
(10:36):
American teens and young men,because we're on our devices all
the time.
There are playbooks 100, 150,200 page playbooks that give
step-by-step instructions as tohow to carry out a sextortion
transaction that are shared allover on Telegram and all these
(10:57):
other encrypted networks thatare out there.
What to say, how to say it, whatactions to take Now with AI,
what to do with images, how youcan fake voices so much that you
can do with deep fakes, rightTo pretend to be somebody and
then to scan someone's profileand see where their friends are
and threaten and do a countdownin the DMs to threat, right.
It's all based on fear.
(11:18):
If you can get somebody'scortisol fear response to kick
in, they'll do almost anythingbecause the brain doesn't want
to live in fear, it wants to getout and get relief, and so if
you think relief is sendingmoney, then that's exactly what
you'll do.
Now, that's not what you shoulddo, but that's what the brain
wants to do.
So it's a long setup to theissue, but I think again, it's
(11:38):
important to understand what andwhy, so that we can step back
and go whoa, whoa, limbic systemPause.
Let me think about what's aboutto happen and do something
different.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
And for me it was really helpful to hear a
specific example of how that canplay out.
Can you tell the story of whathappened to Jordan DeMay?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
I'm in Michigan and Jordan is a story that many
people around the country, notjust in Michigan now, are aware
of Drew because of what hashappened sort of in the wake of
Jordan's story.
So Jordan was a senior in highschool football player,
homecoming King.
(12:20):
He's a great guy with tons ofpotential, right, and knew he
was going to college right, hadgreat loving parents, right.
I know his father, john, whoactually had done a lot of the
things that we teach aroundprotecting kids and, you know,
having all the rightconversations and all those
kinds of things.
And one night on Instagramreceived a message from somebody
(12:41):
who kind of looked like afriend, convinced him that he
was someone he could trust.
And Jordan sent a compromisingvideo and within three or so
hours had felt so much justpressure.
They were extorting him formoney, they were threatening him
with all kinds of actionsaround what was going to be
(13:04):
shared.
They did all the typical thingsthat are in these playbooks
counting down, telling him itdoesn't matter if he dies, it
doesn't matter, we just pay us,pay us and Jordan ended up dying
by suicide that night, likewithin three hours, kind of
start to end, of this sextortionscheme from taking place.
They were actually able toidentify three individuals who
(13:24):
were a part of this.
Two of them are brothers andthey were from a network called
the Yahoo Boys.
They primarily operate out ofNigeria.
They're in Western Africa, butthey're all over and they were
able to extradite them.
This is what's unique aboutthis story where they found them
.
The FBI extradited them to theUnited States.
(13:45):
Two of them, I think it's beenrecently.
The brothers were sentenced to17 years in prison and I know
that because the federal courtwhere it happened is here in my
hometown, here in Michigan.
I've met John, his father, knowJohn and now we're in kind of a
connection with each other,trying to do more in this space
to raise awareness.
Obviously a tragic story, butit's not an uncommon story right
(14:08):
now.
Drew, that's the worst possibleoutcome.
I'm glad that they identifiedand put him in prison, but that
doesn't bring Jordan back.
That's actually quite rare.
That hasn't happened in any ofthe other documented sextortion
schemes Gavin and Walker andothers.
If you were to, you were tofind them.
You know representative Guffeydown in South Carolina whose son
was sextorted, and same sameoutcome.
(14:31):
Right, they haven't found them.
So on the you know other side ofthat, there's sometimes a
glimmer of hope where we canstop the transaction.
Literally, people will belistening to this anytime, but
three weeks prior to thisconversation that you and I are
having, I received a franticmessage from someone in my
community whose son had slippedinto a sextortion scheme.
(14:55):
They were right in the middleof it and they wanted to know
exactly what to do, and that'swhere I think you had found what
we had written about this.
There are ways to prevent thisfrom happening.
Right, just in terms ofguarding our own privacy and
steps that we can take.
Again, whether you're 14 or 35or whatever, right, there's some
steps that we can take toprevent this issue.
(15:15):
Also, just kind ofunderstanding the issue, like
we've talked about here.
But then let's say it happensfor whatever reason it happens,
there's also things that youneed to do in that moment.
Also, things like I worked withthis father and his son on,
which is specifically to cut offconversations immediately.
Like you cut off theconversation right then and
(15:35):
there, no matter what they'rethreatening.
You cut it off Because what'sthe worst that can happen Right
now?
They're preying on fears.
What's the worst that canhappen?
The worst that can happen Rightnow, they're preying on fears.
What's the worst that canhappen?
The worst that can happen isthey could send it, they could
follow through on the threat,right.
But now we have, I think, as asociety, a bit of plausible
deniability, right, because ofgenerative AI and because of
(15:56):
deep fakes and because of thesethings that can be used against
us, you kind of have the yeah,that's not me.
I mean this will sound sort oflike a double standard.
Am I telling people to lie ifthat's what happens?
No, but I'm just saying that Ithink, as a society, the fact
that somebody has somethinginappropriate shared about them
with others sadly isn't as bigof a shock as it used to be when
(16:20):
you step back and think aboutit.
That's really what I'm tryingto communicate here.
But in the moment, the fear isI don't want that to happen.
Right, your cortisol is makingyour decisions, but when you
step back and go, wait a minutethis is what I used to do at
Ernst Young, right, when I wasin risk consulting you always
asked in a situation what's theworst that could happen, and
then you put controls in placeto get that back from the worst
(16:41):
to the.
This is an acceptable outcomeand I think that's what we have
to do here, what's the worstthat can happen.
So we always tell and this isbased on law enforcement and
other counsel you always stop.
You never pay a penny, no matterwhat they've threatened, you
don't pay and you wait them out.
Because here's what's probablygoing on.
They probably sent out ahundred random messages right in
(17:06):
order to identify 10 who flinchand within the 10, they're
looking for one that will pay up.
To use a fishing analogy, rightIn that moment there's likely a
number of individuals who arequote on the hook at that point
in time and all they care aboutis the money.
They're going to focus on theperson that's paying attention
(17:27):
to them and seems to be reacting, who's the most afraid, who's
the one that's engaging, andthey will quickly move on.
Most times I can't promise anyoutcome, but they'll quickly
move on if you're notcooperative, because time is
money to them.
Now, it sounds so transactionalat that point, but it is.
That's why I'm trying to getthe conversation into the
(17:48):
thinking part of the brain andget it out of the feeling part
of the brain, and when you getto the thinking part, you're
like well, no, I'm not sendingyou anything, just go away,
focus on someone else, you blockthem, you stop, right.
You take screenshots ofeverything.
You don't send them any money.
You report them throughwhatever app you happen to be in
and then you delete everythingthat's there, right?
(18:09):
And then, if you are connectedto anybody say a significant
other or anybody else you makesure all of their accounts are
private too, so they're notdragged into this, that their
information can't be weaponizedagainst them in some way because
of their association with you.
I tell parents it's sometimes agood idea just to delete their
kid's account.
I don't care what historyyou've got on Snapchat or
(18:29):
Instagram or whatever.
Delete the account and startover Again.
Weigh the risk, right.
Weigh it.
I would rather you just startfresh than risk keeping that
account around, right?
Sometimes they've got yourphone number, so you change your
phone number.
These are things, right?
You can share in the show noteswith these 10 specific steps
right, that you can take in thatmoment, because you need to
(18:52):
engage the thinking part and getout of the feeling part and
follow the checklist.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Right and Chris, you have put together some really
great checklists and an articleon the Protect Young Eyes
website, so I'm going to sharethe link to that as well.
Some of the men in ourcommunity are specifically
struggling with the temptationto send naked pictures of
themselves or to get onto awebcam conversation where they
(19:20):
are on a live video and theyhave this unwanted behavior that
they really want to overcome,and yet it just feels
irresistible to be sharing theirbodies and to be looking at the
bodies of others, live orthrough images.
(19:40):
My heart really breaks forthese guys.
What counsel or advice wouldyou give to somebody who's
putting themselves at risk ofbeing sextorted?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
give to somebody who's putting themselves at risk
of being sextorted.
Well, you're speaking mylanguage, which is why it was
important to kind of lay outthat history of where I've come
from, because every single timewe get online, whether you're
just a participant in somethingor a parent in something or
whatever, there's a risk thatyou have to be thinking about,
right Again, I just think it'salways helpful, before you click
(20:14):
on something, to ask thequestion what could go wrong?
What could go wrong?
Let me say it again, what couldgo wrong?
And if you come to theconclusion that the worst
possible outcome has aprobability that you're not
comfortable with, then you haveto accept the risk that comes
with that.
(20:34):
And that's the thing about thequote the internet, right, this
worldwide web.
We don't even talk about thethree letters, the WWW, anymore
because they're not necessary,but like let's never forget,
like when I'm speaking to kidsand teens and we do
presentations all over, like weremind them that every single
thing you do on a device hasthree letters World Wide Web, it
(20:54):
was named.
The thing that we have toconsider every single time we
get online that we're connectedto the world in some way and you
can feel invincible and you canfeel like you don't have to
worry about that anymore whenyou're an adult, but it doesn't
change the fact you're stillconnected to a lot of people who
really don't care about you.
You're connected to a lot ofplaces that weren't designed
(21:16):
with your uniqueness, theawesome ways in which God made
you and some of the unfortunatevulnerabilities that we have.
I guess what I would say is, ifthat's the temptation, then
there's three ways to go aboutit.
Right, there's the pray it away.
There's a spiritual componenthere and, yes, we do pray
against the powers of darknessthat are all around us.
(21:38):
Right, but you can't pray awaysome of these problems.
It's necessary, but you can'tdo that alone.
We also have to bring in bothrelational and technical that's
like the three-prongedpowerhouse here against these
things and just constantly besurrounding ourselves with
individuals who are going tohelp us.
Ask the what could go wrongquestion, to engage the thinking
(22:00):
part of our brain before we goto a spot where we're only
listening to the feeling part ofour brain, because we are
really bad governors for our ownbehavior, right, why?
Because we're feelings drivenand there's survival reason for
that.
But everything online, everysocial media platform,
everything that we love aboutbeing online is based on our
(22:24):
feelings, right?
It's based on a feature thatmaximizes the feeling we get out
of it, right?
So there's a reason whySnapchat and Instagram release
the features that they do.
There's a reason why webcamspull on us the way that we do,
because they're tapping intoancient created things that
(22:45):
we're supposed to be attractedto, that we're supposed to want.
We're supposed to want to seethings that excite us sexually.
We're supposed to want to beconnected to others like us and,
deep down, we're supposed to beconnected to others, but for
the right reasons.
Right?
Is it a loneliness that'spulling us into those sorts of
(23:08):
spaces?
Because technology will do areally good job of solving that
for you.
So that's where the why and thefeeling, all these things are
interrelated.
We are complex beings.
We are mind, body and spirit.
You can't just tackle it bysaying, well, I'm not going to
go there, I'm going to filterthat out.
Well, that's a technical partof it, yes, but there's always a
(23:29):
way around that.
So who's the logical voice,when your feelings are out of
control, to speak into that,right?
So it's just, it's kind of allof those things.
It was a long-winded way toanswer your question, because
it's a complex issue and everyperson is going to have sort of
their own reasons why they'redrawn to those places, why
(23:53):
they're drawn to those places,which is why your platform
exists to give you know men, asafe spot to unpack all the
reasons why we feel and do thethings that we do, which is just
a awesome but complicated messof thread that you got to undo
one little thread at a time.
But I know I tend to live sortof in that camp and this is what
we tell parents all the time.
Right, there's a spiritualcomponent and, yes, we pray for
the hearts of our kiddos, or wepray for our own hearts to be
(24:17):
directed in the way that theyshould go, but we've got to
stack a bunch of practicalthings on top of that, otherwise
the opportunities are alwaysgoing to be there.
Yeah, yeah, can you say alittle bit more about how you
(24:46):
help parents navigate theseissues?
Information that we share aboutOur most popular presentation
is Digital Discernment, the FiveHabits of a Tech-Ready Home.
After hundreds of these and allover the world, there are
certain habits that, when thoseare done consistently and
persistently, you tend to haveyoung people who learn how to
(25:06):
use technology in good, positive, god-honoring ways.
It's modeling the rightbehaviors, pursuing authentic
connection, encouraging work andplay, delaying addictive
technology and diligentlypreventing harm.
And there are like microtactics in each of those five
sort of macro habits that wetalk about, just to give parents
really practical things thatthey can do.
(25:27):
So that's our livepresentations.
We also have an on-demandversion of that that parents can
take, because everybody cancome to a live talk or schools
can't always bring us in, sothat's what can be done.
But we have a massive amount offree information, self-help
kind of information.
That's how you found us rightIn this post.
We have app reviews, devicereviews, how to set things up,
(25:48):
how to put some of those layersof protection in place, right,
some of the software andhardware that works right.
So that's the learning part,right.
So you need to be live,on-demand, self-directed.
All of that is available andthat's on our website,
protectyoungeyescom.
Then we also have a community.
So, like you right, the powerof community of relating Some of
these issues are difficult.
(26:09):
You know, technology is not asimple thing to unwind in the
lives of our kids, right, it'son their school issued devices,
it's on the thing that we justwant to know where they are at
their friend's house, yet italso gives them access to all
these other things.
How do we control that?
Right?
So we have a community calledthe table.
We want people to come to thetable to have these
conversations.
We built this.
It's not a Facebook group.
(26:30):
It's not any kind of Instagramthread or anything.
It's our own private communitythat we've built.
That we own.
We don't have to put littleasterisks on things like we do
on Instagram when you talk aboutcertain topics.
I actually got banned for threemonths on Instagram because of a
post I did specifically onsextortion and specifically on a
(26:51):
case where it wasn't Jordan'scase, specifically his situation
, but I said the word suicide inthe reel that I made for
Instagram, and I was restrictedfor three months where I wasn't
allowed to do collaborationsbecause I said a word that is
against their communityguidelines.
Right, it's that kind ofnonsense, right?
Your Instagram is the reasonJordan DeMay is no longer with
(27:14):
us and yet they won't allow meto educate parents and others on
this issue.
The irony there is just sosickening.
But that's why we built our owncommunity, because a lot of
these other digital spaces havea whole different agenda than we
do.
So it's through those twoprimary sort of ways that we
(27:34):
want to educate and equip andmake sure that when you've got
hard questions, you don't knowwhat a router is or what it's
good for, or what screen time ison an iPhone which is good for
14-year-olds and 40-year-olds,right to filter out some stuff.
Then we want to be a spot whereyou can get some of that help.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
That's so awesome so you can learn more at
protectyoungeyescom, and thereis a wealth of resources and
community and, chris, I'm reallyexcited about what you've built
For you personally.
What is your favorite thingabout freedom from porn?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
It's having my brain back right.
If I could just be realpractical for a minute.
You know it's because, man, Ican look back on things again
and the moment you see it's sofuzzy you just don't see the
world the way that it's supposedto be seen, right.
I remember a very specificmoment One of my children I
(28:32):
won't say any more specifics,but one of my children.
I was specifically in charge ofgiving this child a bath, their
evening bath.
They were an infant and Iremember being annoyed because I
would rather have been lookingat porn, and in the moment I
didn't really realize what thatmeant.
(28:54):
I was just annoyed because pornis a selfish bastard.
It only wants your fullattention, it only wants all of
you, emotionally,psychologically, relationally,
spiritually, if you can call it.
It wants every piece of that,the brain right, and I was
(29:15):
willing to trade that time witha child, at least in my head.
I wanted to right.
And so there's a clarity thatcomes from things.
When you remove thatsupercharged monster, not that I
mean the impulses are rightwhen they're directed in
honorable ways, but when it'ssupercharged and weaponized
(29:36):
against us, it does a lot of badthings to our decision-making.
So, man, there's a clarity.
There's a.
You know just obviously thefreedom.
Use that word, but I thinkthat's, that's a part of it.
You cannot be your full max,thriving self while also looking
(29:56):
at pornography.
It's impossible.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
And, on the other hand, it is possible to thrive
and to be your authentic self,also to be safe online.
So thank you for helping us dothat.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
My pleasure.
I know not everyone thatlistens is a parent, but chances
are whether it's helpful foryou which I hope some of it is
for those listening or watching.
I also bet that many of youlistening or watching, even
without children of your ownhave young people who you can
influence, and sometimes thebest teacher for us is to be a
(30:32):
teacher for others right, and solearn and maybe share with
nephews or nieces or othersright that are within your
circle of influence, and I thinksome of that splashes back on
us to help our own digitalhabits to go.
Yep, I'm motivated to choosedifferently because I want that
for them too.
(30:52):
So there you go.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Chris, thank you so much, and, guys, I would highly
recommend protectyoungeyescom.
Always remember you are God'sbeloved son.
In you.
He is well-pleased.
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