December 23, 2024 • 39 mins
You have a story. Your sexuality has a story. Adam Young explains why and how to engage your sexual story: desires and disappointments, arousal, emotions, shame, abuse, and your war with hope. Adam also gives us a preview of the workshop he will lead at The Porn Free Man Conference on "Engaging God About Your Story." This episode is incredible!
Adam Young is a therapist who focuses on trauma and abuse, and the host of The Place We Find Ourselves podcast. Adam is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker (LCSW) with a Master's degree in Social Work (Virginia Commonwealth University) and Divinity (Emory University). Adam is the author of Make Sense of Your Story: Why Engaging Your Story with Kindness Changes Everything. He currently serves as a Fellow and Instructor at The Allender Center. Adam lives in Fort Collins, CO, with his wife and two children.
Buy Adam's new book here:
Make Sense Of Your Story: Why Engaging Your Past with Kindness Changes Everything (this is a paid link)
Learn more at adamyoungcounseling.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Today's episode was reallyspecial because I got to
(00:22):
interview my favorite podcaster,adam Young.
We talk about how to make senseof your story, especially the
story of your sexuality.
According to Adam, engagingyour story is the single most
important thing you can do toexperience healing and, I would
add, to outgrow pornography.
It is so powerful.
(00:44):
You are going to get so manyinsights, not only about
yourself, but also about God andwhat it might mean for you to
have a new relationship withyour sexual arousal, with your
sexual shame, and you're goingto get a preview of Adam's
presentation at the upcomingPorn-Free man conference.
(01:05):
You can register for free atthepornfreemancom.
It's going to be a time livewith Adam where he's going to be
guiding us into engaging Godabout our stories.
Enjoy the episode Today.
I am so excited to be hangingout with Adam Young, and he is
not only the host of the Placewe Find Ourselves podcast, but
(01:28):
also the author of this upcomingbook Make Sense of your Story.
Welcome, adam, thank you.
It's good to be with you.
It's great to be with you too.
What do you mean when you sayyour story?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Oh, that's a great place to start.
Well, I mean it in two ways.
We could say biblically, and Imean it neurobiologically.
So in terms of biblically, 70%of the scriptures is narrative.
In other words, a huge chunk ofthe Bible is devoted to telling
(02:04):
the stories of people,characters, people in the
scriptures, and by stories Imean the experiences that they
have had over the course oftheir life, particularly with
regard to their desires andtheir disappointments.
So I don't know any way to talkabout story apart from your
(02:27):
desires and your disappointments, and the nature of life is that
desires and disappointmentscreate energy and movement into
particular directions.
When your heart is broken, youfind yourself needing to make
choices about how you're goingto respond, how you're going to
live.
When a desire that you have isunmet, it puts your heart in
(02:51):
crisis and from those places ofcrisis we tend to make choices,
we do stuff, we respond, we movein different directions and all
of us do different things inthose moments, but those moments
shape the trajectory of thenext phase of your life and that
(03:14):
becomes the next chapter inyour story.
So, biblically, you can seeAbraham, you can see Jacob, you
can see Joseph.
That's just Genesis.
These people had stories, ieexperiences in the world that
were hard and that theyresponded to in particular ways
(03:37):
which we now read, and we areeither inspired by or challenged
by or annoyed by.
But we read what happened tothem as they responded to the
heartaches in their lives.
But I also mean storyneurobiologically, in other
words, you've got neurons inyour brain and the neurons in
(03:58):
your brain are connected to eachother in only one of two ways
either genetics so my eye colorgenetics, my height genetics but
apart from genetics, everysingle neuronal connection you
have in your brain is a functionof the experiences that you've
had in life.
So when I say story, all I meanis your life experiences, what
(04:22):
happened to you, butparticularly what happened to
you when your brain wasdeveloping at a rapid rate, ie
when you were younger andgrowing up in your family of
origin.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
And these experiences from our earliest ages shape
our sexuality.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
They shape everything , including sexuality, which is
a big part of life, right?
Speaker 1 (04:46):
So how do our stories affect our arousal and maybe
even relationship with porn?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Well, I think everyone deserves to take some
time and reflect on what I wouldcall their sexual story.
In other words, how did youfirst learn about sexuality?
How did you first learn aboutarousal?
How were you introduced to thenotion that you are a sexual
(05:19):
being and that human beings havesexual relationships?
Like, everyone needs to at somepoint ponder how they came to
be aware that they were a sexualbeing, because, for some of us,
we had parents who sat us downand who gradually, over a series
(05:40):
of conversations, introduced usinto the mystery of sexuality.
But that's the minority of myexperience of people.
Most people did not find outabout sexuality through a
caretaker, a mentor, an older,you know, wiser person that
(06:02):
could initiate them into themysteries of their own sexuality
.
And, absent that, we find outabout it at school.
We find out about it online.
We find out about it throughpornography.
We find out about it throughother kids in the neighborhood.
We find out about it throughabuse.
I mean there's so many waysthat, tragically, that we find
(06:24):
out about it through abuse.
I mean there's so many waysthat, tragically, that we find
out about our sexuality that arenot, we could say, good for the
heart.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, you made a bold claim in this book when you
said no one makes it toadulthood without experiencing
some form of sexual harm.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, I believe that to be true.
It doesn't mean that everyonehas experienced sexual abuse.
It does mean that sexuality issuch a tremendous gift of God
that the kingdom of evildespises your sexuality and, as
a result, in my experience, I'venever met someone that has made
it to the, you know, to age 30without some story of sexual
(07:12):
harm, sexual shame, sexualheartache, and so pondering
those stories and like writingthem down is a really important
part of getting to know your ownheart and your own brain, and
that heart is going to be whatdrives your sexuality going
(07:32):
forward.
So isn't it important to knowsomething about the stories that
have shaped the brain, theheart that you bring to bear on
your future sexual experiences?
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Your work and the work of others, like Jay
Stringer, have really convincedme of that.
And yet I hear so manyobjections, especially from
Christians who are reallycommitted to the Bible, who say
things like well, that'sactually not biblical.
Like you're dwelling on thepast, yeah, You're not actually
doing what needs to be done,which is actually not biblical.
(08:06):
Like you're dwelling on thepast, you're not actually doing
what needs to be done, which isrepentance.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yes, great words.
Two thoughts that immediatelycome to mind.
One is according to Romans 2.4,it's the kindness of God that
leads us to repentance.
So that needs to be held inmind any time you're talking
about repentance.
What and by held in mind I meanwhat is the kindness of God
(08:34):
inviting you to engage in thismoment with regard to your
sexuality?
That's number one.
Number two, with regard todwelling on the past, the way I
wrote it in the book is nobodyever comes home and says you
know, I had a great day today.
I spent two hours dwelling onmy past.
I mean, the phrase has becomepejorative, particularly in
Christian circles.
(08:54):
Dwelling on the past is like abad thing.
But I don't think God, the Godof the Bible, has any interest
in us ignoring the past,formative experiences that have
profoundly shaped the neurons inour brain, which is another way
of saying the Hebrew notion ofheart.
In the Hebrew Bible, the heartrefers to not just your feelings
(09:18):
, but your will, your emotions,your drives, your passions, what
drives you.
And so to reflect on the pastis the only way to take
responsibility for the presentand to enter the future with
some measure of, we could say,desire that is not constrained
(09:41):
by previous stories, previousnarratives.
If you don't look at your paststory, you are going to get
caught in what's calledreenactment and all that it's a
fancy word for saying.
You're going to find yourselfbound by certain things, doing
certain things that are linkedto the past, that you refuse to
(10:05):
engage.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
And that is so true sexually.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
It's so true sexually ?
Yeah, absolutely, becausesexuality is something that's
far more in our brains than inour genitalia, and so sexuality
is about what makes you comealive, what turns you on, what
gives you a sense of arousal.
The answers to those questionsare not random.
(10:32):
I mean, what turns me on isprobably different than what
turns you on, and there's areason for that, and those
reasons are rooted in ourrespective stories.
And again, I don't think Godhas any shame.
I mean it's absurd to have tosay this.
God is the creator of sexuality, god is the creator of arousal.
(10:55):
God is not ashamed of yourstory, and particularly your
sexual story story andparticularly your sexual story.
So why do you have shame aboutexploring how you came to be
aroused by the things thatarouse you.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Well, there are reasons for that.
There are.
There are good reasons.
I loved when you said thememories that hold the deepest
shame for you will be the verymemories that can set you free.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
I think that's true.
It's certainly been true in mypersonal life.
It's been true in my clinicalexperience working with people I
mean, I can't tell you how manypeople when we bump up against
their sexual shame, there is somuch energy to not enter those
stories, particularly stories ofsexual abuse, and there's a
sense of if I go there it won'tdo any good, it won't produce
(11:52):
any good fruit.
Nothing good could come fromthis, nothing freeing, and in my
experience it's the exactopposite.
Whenever I get close to someoneelse's sexual shame, I feel
like we are in a gold mine, onthe precipice of breakthrough
into new levels of freedom forthem.
(12:13):
Why?
Because shame, sexual shamethat is unexamined, will
inevitably keep you stuck.
It will keep you bound.
You know, I remember as akindergartner being aroused by
two moms.
One was across the street, onewas four doors down, mrs
Heidenreich and Mrs McPhersonand when I remembered that stuff
(12:36):
, like as an adult in my 30s, Ihad immense shame about that.
I'm like, what kind ofkindergartner gets aroused by
the mothers of his friends?
So I had lots of shame aboutthat.
But when someone was willing towalk with me with kindness into
those stories, it led me touncover that my mother had
(13:02):
worked to arouse me sexually inso many different ways, in so
many different facets, and thathelped me uncover the beginnings
of my sexual abuse with my mom.
And so the shame was like atrailhead, and it led me on a
journey into freedom and intoimmense relief when I realized,
(13:27):
oh, there's a reason.
I was aroused by MrsHeidenreich.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Mm-hmm, I love the relief that comes with those
realizations.
Absolutely it can take away thepower of some of those things
Mm-hmm.
It can make some of thosethoughts and feelings less
intense.
At the same time, I appreciatehow you don't view emotions as
(13:55):
something to be kept undercontrol.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah yeah, emotions aren't designed to be kept under
control.
Yeah yeah, emotions aren'tdesigned to be kept under
anything.
I mean, emotions are gifts fromGod that are designed it's in
the word emotion to evoke motion.
So sadness evokes the motion ofmoving your body towards
(14:18):
another person for comfort.
Anger evokes the motion of kindof like I'm pushing my hands up
, like saying stop, this is notgood, I don't like this, stop it
.
Emotions are intended to promptus to move our bodies in a way
(14:39):
that is responding to thefeelings inside, and when we do
that, things flow, and by thingsI mean feelings inside, bodily
sensations flow, as opposed tostuffing those emotions down or
(15:01):
sweeping them under the rug,which keeps us stuck because
there's no flow possible.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Exactly so.
When we stuff our stories downor we don't engage them because
we don't want to get emotionalor we don't want to go there,
we're staying stuck.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
That's right.
Yeah, a story that isunexamined, that is untold, that
is unwritten, is inevitably astory that is very powerfully at
play in your heart in ways thatyou may not be aware of, and
it's keeping you stuck.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
So we don't have to be afraid to engage our stories
and we don't have to be afraidto feel our emotions.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
I don't think so.
I mean, there's certainly asense of like this is risky,
this is scary to do, but it'sworth doing because your body is
a truth teller, it is atrustworthy prophet from within.
And by a truth teller I mean ifyou listen to the sensations in
(16:05):
your body, and all emotions arefirst a combination of
sensations.
So you may experience fear as atightening of the, a clenching
of the jaw, like a burningsensation in your chest.
Emotions are first bodilysensations and if you listen to
those sensations, if you welcomethem, they will speak.
(16:27):
They will let you know somethings about what they are
needing you to do, so that thoseemotions can express themselves
and flow through you.
Yeah, that's so good.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Would you say sexual arousal is like an emotion.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
I wouldn't call it an emotion.
Nobody's ever asked me toclassify it like that.
I would say that sexual arousalis a bodily-based sensation of
excitement, intrigue and desire.
It can be intense at times, butit ranges on a spectrum.
I mean you can be aroused tolevel one and you can be aroused
(17:09):
to level 10 on a scale of oneto 10.
So arousal exists on a spectrum.
The question is, what is yourrelationship to your sexual
arousal?
Like?
What's your posture when youfind yourself aroused at a level
five?
Like are you ashamed of that?
Are you afraid of that?
(17:30):
Are you trying to tamp thatdown?
You know what's yourrelationship to your arousal
Because, just like you have arelationship to your anger, a
relationship to your sorrow, youhave a relationship to your
sexual arousal.
You have feelings about it.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
In other words, and many of us have some level of
shame about our arousal- andoften a fear and an impulse to
attack it or avoid it, becauseit has led us back into
pornography or similar behaviors.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
There's often fear, Absolutely.
There's a sense of oh crap,it's an unwelcome visitor and I
wish it would just go away formany people.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
So if I feel like the part of me that wants to watch
porn is an unwelcome visitor,what are my options?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Great question.
One option is to try and makeit go away, and that option
rarely works.
It might work temporarily, butit's not going to work
permanently.
Why?
Because you are shoving a partof you into the basement of your
(18:48):
heart.
You're like putting a part ofyou into a room in the basement
and telling him or her to stayput and to never knock the door
and to never come out and play.
If your sexual arousal is agift from God, if there are no
bad parts of your heart, ifeveryone is welcome the angry
(19:11):
part, the sad part, the grievingpart, the aroused part then
what would it look like to set atable for the aroused part at
your dinner table, set a place,setting like you would if you
were having a friend over andjust bring some curiosity, some
hospitality, some kindness andbe like okay, what do you have
(19:34):
to tell me?
That's a very different posturethan pushing somebody into the
basement.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
What are some things you might hear when you ask that
question?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Well, right away.
You're going to hear desire.
You're going to hear sexualdesire.
I want something sexual, andthe options from there are, you
know, innumerable, becauseeveryone's sexual desires are
different.
But you're going to hear someversion of I want, okay.
(20:07):
Okay, tell me more about whatyou want.
Like that's such a differentposture than you are an
unwelcome visitor.
Slam the door shut Right.
But it's scary to many peopleto shift their posture from
(20:27):
unwelcome to welcome.
Why?
Because they're afraid that ifthey do that, their desire is
going to run rampant and dodamage in their life, and all I
would say is why do you thinkthat?
Why are you so convinced thatwelcoming this part of you is
(20:53):
going to blow up your life?
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Well, that is often what happens when we try to make
these parts go away.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
That's what happens when we try and make the part.
Very often they come outsideways.
And when they come out sideways, let me continue with my
analogy when they break throughthe basement door and announce
themselves with a vengeancebecause they are angry at you
ignoring them, they often dodamage to yourself or to others,
(21:27):
but that's not because thearoused part is bad.
It's because you are notlistening and welcoming it, are
not listening and welcoming itand it's pissed at you for your
posture of like shut up andleave me alone, because it's not
going anywhere.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I've been reflecting on this and the best way I can
say it is any part of yourselfthat you hate will hide and
retaliate.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
That's a very good sentence, and sometimes it will
hide.
I think it will always.
If by retaliate you mean bangon the door and say I am here,
deal with me, then yes, I thinkthat every part of you that you
do not welcome will sooner orlater demand attention, and
(22:17):
that's good, like good for it,good for those parts.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah, it's good for us to hear what these thoughts
and feelings are trying to tellus.
Yes, you mentioned how we oftenhear a desire underneath it.
Yes, which is deeper than thesurface level sexual stuff.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Oh, often it's so much deeper.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
And it's also connected to our disappointments
too.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yes, absolutely, Absolutely.
And who among us does not havethis immense sexual
disappointment?
Sexuality is fraught and, as aresult, all of us carry not only
sexual harm but sexualdisappointment.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Where we wanted sexual connection and it was
refused for whatever reason, andit was refused for whatever
reason, and it could also be theemotional disappointments as
well, our desires and ourdisappointments, as you said,
are so connected.
So a common reaction to that isto try to get rid of our
(23:32):
desires or dampen our desiresand maybe choose to not want.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
To settle for less.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
That's very, very common, especially among
Christian folks.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
So Adam, how do you help someone deepen their
desires and maybe entertain hope?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, great word, hope.
For many of us, the reason weturn to a posture of trying to
kill desire, which never fullyworks, is we don't want to deal
with the whole realm of hope.
In other words, I hoped that Iwould have sexual connection
with my wife last night, lastweek, last month, and that went
(24:21):
terrible.
And I cannot bear to hope againtonight.
And so I will try to dull down,numb down, tamp down my wanter,
my sexual wanter.
You know, I don't know anyonethat hasn't, you know, been
(24:41):
caught in that bind at somepoint in their life.
The question is not so muchwhat is your relationship to
sexuality?
The question there is what isyour war with hope?
What is your war with hope?
Because our wars with hopeinevitably confront us with our
(25:02):
relationship with God.
What can I trust that God willdo for me in the land of the
living?
And I have this term calledChristian cynicism.
There's nothing Christian aboutit, but I hear it from
Christians a lot, and it comesin the form of look, Adam, it's
a broken world, I'm not going toget everything I want until
(25:22):
heaven, so stop wanting.
It's cynicism that's fueled bytheology, but it's horrible
theology why?
Because it's premised on theidea of unrealistic expectations
.
On the idea of unrealisticexpectations, the idea is it's
(25:43):
unrealistic, Adam, for me toexpect that all my desires are
going to be met Okay, but youdon't know which ones.
You don't know which ones, andthere is nothing more
unrealistic than theresurrection of Jesus Christ
from the grave.
And so you, if you're Christian, you are living in the reality
(26:06):
that what was the mostunrealistic thing on the planet
from happening the raising of aman from the dead happened.
So you are dealing with a worldwe could say of wonder and of
gift and of surprise, but youdon't want to wrestle with God
about your particular hopes anddesires, because it's too
(26:29):
painful.
So these are the wars thatsexuality so often ushers us
into.
They are wars with God and theyare wars with hope.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
And those wars are very painful and often I mean
that's an understatement, yeah.
And yet I think some of usdon't feel permission.
We don't feel permission to behonest with God.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
We don't feel permission to be honest with God
, absolutely.
So many Christians that I'veworked with that I know,
including myself have learnedthat it is not appropriate for
me to wrestle with God.
It's not permitted for me tofeel disappointment in God or
(27:19):
anger at God.
God's God.
I'm a creature.
He's the creator, I'm thecreated.
Who am I?
The thinking goes.
Who am I to war with God aboutmy desires and disappointments?
I'm called to surrender thatstuff.
(27:40):
This is the thinking, and one ofmy favorite passages whenever
somebody is saying this to me iswhat's known in the Bible as
the parable of the persistentwidow in Luke 18.
It should be called the parableof the widow who refused to
surrender to God's will, becausethe whole point of the parable,
(28:00):
the whole point, jesus's entirepoint in using this parable, is
that the woman, if you'refamiliar with the woman goes to
an unjust judge and demandsjustice against her adversary,
against her adversary.
And Jesus's point in sharingthe parable is that it was her
(28:28):
to use an old word importunance.
It was her persistence, it washer refusal to take no for an
answer from the unjust judge whoJesus is paralleling to God,
the Father.
That is why she went homesatisfied.
And so the question for those ofus who believe in the
scriptures and in Luke 18 is ifJesus told that parable, what
(28:52):
would it be like for you to takeyour demands, your longings,
your desires to God in prayer?
I'm not against surrender, I'mall for surrender.
But surrender implies a12-round wrestling match with
(29:14):
the other person, in this caseGod.
You don't surrender untilyou've come to the end of your
resources through the fight.
Nobody surrenders at thebeginning, so surrender is a
deeply misunderstood term inmost Christian circles.
In my opinion, it requires adeeply candid wrestling match
(29:39):
with God which is personal andwhere something happens in your
heart through your engagementwith God by insisting—here's the
parable of the persistentwidow—insisting on the goodness
of your desire for, in her case,justice.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Well, personally, I don't feel fully equipped to be
able to do that by myself.
Okay, and I imagine many othersare feeling the same way.
We need some guidance.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
And so I'm really excited about your upcoming
presentation at the Porn-Freeman Conference, where you're
going to be helping us engageGod about our stories.
Yeah, can you say more aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Sure, I'm going to not only teach about how do you
engage with God about yoursorrow, about your anger, about
your grief, about your longings,but we're going to do an
exercise together where I kindof guide you through the process
of writing down some sentencesthat your heart would like to
(30:53):
express to your God and then, ifyou feel so inclined, you can
take the risk during, you know,privately, during this time, to
express those, to speak thosesentences to God.
So we have ample resources inthe book of Psalms, in the book
(31:13):
of Jeremiah, the book of Job,the book of Lamentations of
people candidly expressingdisappointment to God,
expressing anger at God,expressing anger at others to
God.
My point is there is biblicalroom and biblical precedent
(31:35):
galore for a candid expressionof what Tim Keller called
pre-reflectively pouring outyour feelings.
I love that termpre-reflectively.
What does he mean by that?
He means, before you've thoughtabout it and decided whether
it's appropriate to express to aholy God, you just pour it out,
(31:56):
you just let it go.
Why?
Because you believe that God isaware that it's in you and is
wanting your face, your heart,your truthful soul, expression
(32:17):
of longing, of anger, of sorrow,of whatever's inside of you
that particular day to beexpressed to your God, because
intimacy requires honesty, andso I think that there is so much
, not just like mental healthreasons for expressing yourself
(32:38):
to God, but biblical precedent,biblical permission in those
books that I just enumerated,for a very honest and forthright
fighting with God, expressingour emotions to God, and I think
God's honored by it, and Ithink your relationship with God
(32:59):
will change in the process ofdoing that.
He welcomes those parts of us.
He welcomes those parts.
That's a great way to put it.
He welcomes those parts of us.
Why don't we?
Speaker 1 (33:14):
And he can handle it.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
And he's not surprised by it.
It's not like he's sittingthere like, oh, I didn't know,
you felt this way, but he wantsyou to own it.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
He wants us to take our big feelings and our messy
emotions and our unedited issuesto him and our unedited issues
to him.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Yeah, yes, I believe that, and I believe that that's
what the Psalms model for us.
Lamentations, jeremiah, I mean,there's so many places.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yeah, so I'm really excited to be able to sit with
you and all be able to do thattogether in less than a month
here.
Yes, it's going to be awesome,and I'm specifically thinking
about our sexual stories andwhat aspects of those we might
want to engage with God about.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Yeah, and I think that the starting point needs to
be either a place ofdisappointment or a place of
shame, either a place ofdisappointment or a place of
shame.
So for so many people can yoube honest about where you are
sexually disappointed, andthere's so many categories for
that.
But can you write down in yourjournal two or three sentences
(34:33):
of where you've experiencedsexual disappointment in the
past year?
And, if you can, how do youwant to engage God about that
disappointment?
So that would be the categoryof disappointment.
The second category would bethe category of shame.
Where do you feel sexual shameand do you believe that God
(34:59):
would like to have someconversation with you about your
sexual shame?
What would it look like just toinvite the Spirit of God into
the memories of sexual shame?
And for many of us that's avery intense experience.
It's a very vulnerableexperience and an experience
where we bring so much sense ofcondemnation that it can be hard
(35:24):
to go there.
But again, if there's nocondemnation for those who are
in Christ Jesus, if it is dyingfor you to invite his presence,
his spirit, into your places ofshame and disappointment.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Amen, that's so beautiful.
And if you guys want to hearmore about this, you go down to
the links in the show notes andyou can find Adam's podcast and
you can pre-order his upcomingbook, make Sense of your Story.
And I would love for you tojoin us on January 10th and 11th
(36:08):
at the Porn-Free man conferenceespecially for this session
about engaging God about yourstory, and you can do that at
thepornfreemancom.
Adam, what is your favoritething about engaging your story?
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Oh, nobody's ever asked me that.
You know, I don't want tomiscommunicate that I think it's
fun.
I do think it's fun, but it'snot fun without heartache, it's
not fun without fear, it's notfun without a sense of
trepidation.
I mean, so much of engaging mystory has been coupled with a
sense of like if I go there, I'mnot going to come back Like I'm
(36:48):
not going to be a functioningdad, husband, employee, like it
will pull me under.
So I want to be honest that Iknow from personal experience
that engaging your story,reflecting on some of these
deeply, deeply disturbingmemories that we all have, can
(37:09):
be overwhelming at times.
But it can also be fun.
And when I say fun, what I meanis, ultimately, there's nothing
more fun for me than overcomingevil with good we could use the
biblical language there Thanovercoming evil with good.
And what do I mean by that?
(37:30):
Well, a story that is unengagedis a story that has you bound,
a story that you cannot tellpublicly and I don't mean to the
world, but to two or threetrained, trusted people is a
story that has you stuck, stillin shame.
So if you are willing to writeand read your, then there's
(38:07):
something deeply disrupting ofthe power of evil in that
process, and we could say, at abare minimum, shame is overcome
with the light.
By the light I mean telling thestory to another person and
seeing their reaction.
So when we do that, there'ssomething really fun about the
relief, about the humor thatoften comes about, the surprise
(38:29):
of I didn't see that, I thoughtthis was all bad, nothing good.
And you're pointing somethingout to me as you hear the story
and I am surprised by yourreaction to my story.
That's a level of community andintimacy that I think is really
fun and really freeing.
So there's joy, there's joy.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
There's joy and on the other side of entering into
these stories of shame,disappointment and death,
there's resurrection.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
There's resurrection, absolutely, but there can be no
resurrection without death.
That's just axiomatic.
And many of us are trying toexperience hope, healing,
resurrection, goodness, joy,without descending into the
depths of our story, and I justdon't think you can do that.
(39:26):
That's so good.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
So let's descend into the depths together, trusting
that resurrection is coming.
Adam, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
You're welcome.
This was fun for me.
You asked great questions.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Thanks and always remember my friend.
You are God's beloved son.
In you he is well-pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Today's episode was reallyspecial because I got to
(00:22):
interview my favorite podcaster,adam Young.
We talk about how to make senseof your story, especially the
story of your sexuality.
According to Adam, engagingyour story is the single most
important thing you can do toexperience healing and, I would
add, to outgrow pornography.
It is so powerful.
(00:44):
You are going to get so manyinsights, not only about
yourself, but also about God andwhat it might mean for you to
have a new relationship withyour sexual arousal, with your
sexual shame, and you're goingto get a preview of Adam's
presentation at the upcomingPorn-Free man conference.
(01:05):
You can register for free atthepornfreemancom.
It's going to be a time livewith Adam where he's going to be
guiding us into engaging Godabout our stories.
Enjoy the episode Today.
I am so excited to be hangingout with Adam Young, and he is
not only the host of the Placewe Find Ourselves podcast, but
(01:28):
also the author of this upcomingbook Make Sense of your Story.
Welcome, adam, thank you.
It's good to be with you.
It's great to be with you too.
What do you mean when you sayyour story?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Oh, that's a great place to start.
Well, I mean it in two ways.
We could say biblically, and Imean it neurobiologically.
So in terms of biblically, 70%of the scriptures is narrative.
In other words, a huge chunk ofthe Bible is devoted to telling
(02:04):
the stories of people,characters, people in the
scriptures, and by stories Imean the experiences that they
have had over the course oftheir life, particularly with
regard to their desires andtheir disappointments.
So I don't know any way to talkabout story apart from your
(02:27):
desires and your disappointments, and the nature of life is that
desires and disappointmentscreate energy and movement into
particular directions.
When your heart is broken, youfind yourself needing to make
choices about how you're goingto respond, how you're going to
live.
When a desire that you have isunmet, it puts your heart in
(02:51):
crisis and from those places ofcrisis we tend to make choices,
we do stuff, we respond, we movein different directions and all
of us do different things inthose moments, but those moments
shape the trajectory of thenext phase of your life and that
(03:14):
becomes the next chapter inyour story.
So, biblically, you can seeAbraham, you can see Jacob, you
can see Joseph.
That's just Genesis.
These people had stories, ieexperiences in the world that
were hard and that theyresponded to in particular ways
(03:37):
which we now read, and we areeither inspired by or challenged
by or annoyed by.
But we read what happened tothem as they responded to the
heartaches in their lives.
But I also mean storyneurobiologically, in other
words, you've got neurons inyour brain and the neurons in
(03:58):
your brain are connected to eachother in only one of two ways
either genetics so my eye colorgenetics, my height genetics but
apart from genetics, everysingle neuronal connection you
have in your brain is a functionof the experiences that you've
had in life.
So when I say story, all I meanis your life experiences, what
(04:22):
happened to you, butparticularly what happened to
you when your brain wasdeveloping at a rapid rate, ie
when you were younger andgrowing up in your family of
origin.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
And these experiences from our earliest ages shape
our sexuality.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
They shape everything , including sexuality, which is
a big part of life, right?
Speaker 1 (04:46):
So how do our stories affect our arousal and maybe
even relationship with porn?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Well, I think everyone deserves to take some
time and reflect on what I wouldcall their sexual story.
In other words, how did youfirst learn about sexuality?
How did you first learn aboutarousal?
How were you introduced to thenotion that you are a sexual
(05:19):
being and that human beings havesexual relationships?
Like, everyone needs to at somepoint ponder how they came to
be aware that they were a sexualbeing, because, for some of us,
we had parents who sat us downand who gradually, over a series
(05:40):
of conversations, introduced usinto the mystery of sexuality.
But that's the minority of myexperience of people.
Most people did not find outabout sexuality through a
caretaker, a mentor, an older,you know, wiser person that
(06:02):
could initiate them into themysteries of their own sexuality
.
And, absent that, we find outabout it at school.
We find out about it online.
We find out about it throughpornography.
We find out about it throughother kids in the neighborhood.
We find out about it throughabuse.
I mean there's so many waysthat, tragically, that we find
(06:24):
out about it through abuse.
I mean there's so many waysthat, tragically, that we find
out about our sexuality that arenot, we could say, good for the
heart.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, you made a bold claim in this book when you
said no one makes it toadulthood without experiencing
some form of sexual harm.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, I believe that to be true.
It doesn't mean that everyonehas experienced sexual abuse.
It does mean that sexuality issuch a tremendous gift of God
that the kingdom of evildespises your sexuality and, as
a result, in my experience, I'venever met someone that has made
it to the, you know, to age 30without some story of sexual
(07:12):
harm, sexual shame, sexualheartache, and so pondering
those stories and like writingthem down is a really important
part of getting to know your ownheart and your own brain, and
that heart is going to be whatdrives your sexuality going
(07:32):
forward.
So isn't it important to knowsomething about the stories that
have shaped the brain, theheart that you bring to bear on
your future sexual experiences?
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Your work and the work of others, like Jay
Stringer, have really convincedme of that.
And yet I hear so manyobjections, especially from
Christians who are reallycommitted to the Bible, who say
things like well, that'sactually not biblical.
Like you're dwelling on thepast, yeah, You're not actually
doing what needs to be done,which is actually not biblical.
(08:06):
Like you're dwelling on thepast, you're not actually doing
what needs to be done, which isrepentance.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yes, great words.
Two thoughts that immediatelycome to mind.
One is according to Romans 2.4,it's the kindness of God that
leads us to repentance.
So that needs to be held inmind any time you're talking
about repentance.
What and by held in mind I meanwhat is the kindness of God
(08:34):
inviting you to engage in thismoment with regard to your
sexuality?
That's number one.
Number two, with regard todwelling on the past, the way I
wrote it in the book is nobodyever comes home and says you
know, I had a great day today.
I spent two hours dwelling onmy past.
I mean, the phrase has becomepejorative, particularly in
Christian circles.
(08:54):
Dwelling on the past is like abad thing.
But I don't think God, the Godof the Bible, has any interest
in us ignoring the past,formative experiences that have
profoundly shaped the neurons inour brain, which is another way
of saying the Hebrew notion ofheart.
In the Hebrew Bible, the heartrefers to not just your feelings
(09:18):
, but your will, your emotions,your drives, your passions, what
drives you.
And so to reflect on the pastis the only way to take
responsibility for the presentand to enter the future with
some measure of, we could say,desire that is not constrained
(09:41):
by previous stories, previousnarratives.
If you don't look at your paststory, you are going to get
caught in what's calledreenactment and all that it's a
fancy word for saying.
You're going to find yourselfbound by certain things, doing
certain things that are linkedto the past, that you refuse to
(10:05):
engage.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
And that is so true sexually.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
It's so true sexually ?
Yeah, absolutely, becausesexuality is something that's
far more in our brains than inour genitalia, and so sexuality
is about what makes you comealive, what turns you on, what
gives you a sense of arousal.
The answers to those questionsare not random.
(10:32):
I mean, what turns me on isprobably different than what
turns you on, and there's areason for that, and those
reasons are rooted in ourrespective stories.
And again, I don't think Godhas any shame.
I mean it's absurd to have tosay this.
God is the creator of sexuality, god is the creator of arousal.
(10:55):
God is not ashamed of yourstory, and particularly your
sexual story story andparticularly your sexual story.
So why do you have shame aboutexploring how you came to be
aroused by the things thatarouse you.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Well, there are reasons for that.
There are.
There are good reasons.
I loved when you said thememories that hold the deepest
shame for you will be the verymemories that can set you free.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
I think that's true.
It's certainly been true in mypersonal life.
It's been true in my clinicalexperience working with people I
mean, I can't tell you how manypeople when we bump up against
their sexual shame, there is somuch energy to not enter those
stories, particularly stories ofsexual abuse, and there's a
sense of if I go there it won'tdo any good, it won't produce
(11:52):
any good fruit.
Nothing good could come fromthis, nothing freeing, and in my
experience it's the exactopposite.
Whenever I get close to someoneelse's sexual shame, I feel
like we are in a gold mine, onthe precipice of breakthrough
into new levels of freedom forthem.
(12:13):
Why?
Because shame, sexual shamethat is unexamined, will
inevitably keep you stuck.
It will keep you bound.
You know, I remember as akindergartner being aroused by
two moms.
One was across the street, onewas four doors down, mrs
Heidenreich and Mrs McPhersonand when I remembered that stuff
(12:36):
, like as an adult in my 30s, Ihad immense shame about that.
I'm like, what kind ofkindergartner gets aroused by
the mothers of his friends?
So I had lots of shame aboutthat.
But when someone was willing towalk with me with kindness into
those stories, it led me touncover that my mother had
(13:02):
worked to arouse me sexually inso many different ways, in so
many different facets, and thathelped me uncover the beginnings
of my sexual abuse with my mom.
And so the shame was like atrailhead, and it led me on a
journey into freedom and intoimmense relief when I realized,
(13:27):
oh, there's a reason.
I was aroused by MrsHeidenreich.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Mm-hmm, I love the relief that comes with those
realizations.
Absolutely it can take away thepower of some of those things
Mm-hmm.
It can make some of thosethoughts and feelings less
intense.
At the same time, I appreciatehow you don't view emotions as
(13:55):
something to be kept undercontrol.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Yeah yeah, emotions aren't designed to be kept under
control.
Yeah yeah, emotions aren'tdesigned to be kept under
anything.
I mean, emotions are gifts fromGod that are designed it's in
the word emotion to evoke motion.
So sadness evokes the motion ofmoving your body towards
(14:18):
another person for comfort.
Anger evokes the motion of kindof like I'm pushing my hands up
, like saying stop, this is notgood, I don't like this, stop it
.
Emotions are intended to promptus to move our bodies in a way
(14:39):
that is responding to thefeelings inside, and when we do
that, things flow, and by thingsI mean feelings inside, bodily
sensations flow, as opposed tostuffing those emotions down or
(15:01):
sweeping them under the rug,which keeps us stuck because
there's no flow possible.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Exactly so.
When we stuff our stories downor we don't engage them because
we don't want to get emotionalor we don't want to go there,
we're staying stuck.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
That's right.
Yeah, a story that isunexamined, that is untold, that
is unwritten, is inevitably astory that is very powerfully at
play in your heart in ways thatyou may not be aware of, and
it's keeping you stuck.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
So we don't have to be afraid to engage our stories
and we don't have to be afraidto feel our emotions.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
I don't think so.
I mean, there's certainly asense of like this is risky,
this is scary to do, but it'sworth doing because your body is
a truth teller, it is atrustworthy prophet from within.
And by a truth teller I mean ifyou listen to the sensations in
(16:05):
your body, and all emotions arefirst a combination of
sensations.
So you may experience fear as atightening of the, a clenching
of the jaw, like a burningsensation in your chest.
Emotions are first bodilysensations and if you listen to
those sensations, if you welcomethem, they will speak.
(16:27):
They will let you know somethings about what they are
needing you to do, so that thoseemotions can express themselves
and flow through you.
Yeah, that's so good.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Would you say sexual arousal is like an emotion.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
I wouldn't call it an emotion.
Nobody's ever asked me toclassify it like that.
I would say that sexual arousalis a bodily-based sensation of
excitement, intrigue and desire.
It can be intense at times, butit ranges on a spectrum.
I mean you can be aroused tolevel one and you can be aroused
(17:09):
to level 10 on a scale of oneto 10.
So arousal exists on a spectrum.
The question is, what is yourrelationship to your sexual
arousal?
Like?
What's your posture when youfind yourself aroused at a level
five?
Like are you ashamed of that?
Are you afraid of that?
(17:30):
Are you trying to tamp thatdown?
You know what's yourrelationship to your arousal
Because, just like you have arelationship to your anger, a
relationship to your sorrow, youhave a relationship to your
sexual arousal.
You have feelings about it.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
In other words, and many of us have some level of
shame about our arousal- andoften a fear and an impulse to
attack it or avoid it, becauseit has led us back into
pornography or similar behaviors.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
There's often fear, Absolutely.
There's a sense of oh crap,it's an unwelcome visitor and I
wish it would just go away formany people.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
So if I feel like the part of me that wants to watch
porn is an unwelcome visitor,what are my options?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Great question.
One option is to try and makeit go away, and that option
rarely works.
It might work temporarily, butit's not going to work
permanently.
Why?
Because you are shoving a partof you into the basement of your
(18:48):
heart.
You're like putting a part ofyou into a room in the basement
and telling him or her to stayput and to never knock the door
and to never come out and play.
If your sexual arousal is agift from God, if there are no
bad parts of your heart, ifeveryone is welcome the angry
(19:11):
part, the sad part, the grievingpart, the aroused part then
what would it look like to set atable for the aroused part at
your dinner table, set a place,setting like you would if you
were having a friend over andjust bring some curiosity, some
hospitality, some kindness andbe like okay, what do you have
(19:34):
to tell me?
That's a very different posturethan pushing somebody into the
basement.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
What are some things you might hear when you ask that
question?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Well, right away.
You're going to hear desire.
You're going to hear sexualdesire.
I want something sexual, andthe options from there are, you
know, innumerable, becauseeveryone's sexual desires are
different.
But you're going to hear someversion of I want, okay.
(20:07):
Okay, tell me more about whatyou want.
Like that's such a differentposture than you are an
unwelcome visitor.
Slam the door shut Right.
But it's scary to many peopleto shift their posture from
(20:27):
unwelcome to welcome.
Why?
Because they're afraid that ifthey do that, their desire is
going to run rampant and dodamage in their life, and all I
would say is why do you thinkthat?
Why are you so convinced thatwelcoming this part of you is
(20:53):
going to blow up your life?
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Well, that is often what happens when we try to make
these parts go away.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
That's what happens when we try and make the part.
Very often they come outsideways.
And when they come out sideways, let me continue with my
analogy when they break throughthe basement door and announce
themselves with a vengeancebecause they are angry at you
ignoring them, they often dodamage to yourself or to others,
(21:27):
but that's not because thearoused part is bad.
It's because you are notlistening and welcoming it, are
not listening and welcoming itand it's pissed at you for your
posture of like shut up andleave me alone, because it's not
going anywhere.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I've been reflecting on this and the best way I can
say it is any part of yourselfthat you hate will hide and
retaliate.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
That's a very good sentence, and sometimes it will
hide.
I think it will always.
If by retaliate you mean bangon the door and say I am here,
deal with me, then yes, I thinkthat every part of you that you
do not welcome will sooner orlater demand attention, and
(22:17):
that's good, like good for it,good for those parts.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah, it's good for us to hear what these thoughts
and feelings are trying to tellus.
Yes, you mentioned how we oftenhear a desire underneath it.
Yes, which is deeper than thesurface level sexual stuff.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Oh, often it's so much deeper.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
And it's also connected to our disappointments
too.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Yes, absolutely, Absolutely.
And who among us does not havethis immense sexual
disappointment?
Sexuality is fraught and, as aresult, all of us carry not only
sexual harm but sexualdisappointment.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Where we wanted sexual connection and it was
refused for whatever reason, andit was refused for whatever
reason, and it could also be theemotional disappointments as
well, our desires and ourdisappointments, as you said,
are so connected.
So a common reaction to that isto try to get rid of our
(23:32):
desires or dampen our desiresand maybe choose to not want.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
To settle for less.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
That's very, very common, especially among
Christian folks.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
So Adam, how do you help someone deepen their
desires and maybe entertain hope?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, great word, hope.
For many of us, the reason weturn to a posture of trying to
kill desire, which never fullyworks, is we don't want to deal
with the whole realm of hope.
In other words, I hoped that Iwould have sexual connection
with my wife last night, lastweek, last month, and that went
(24:21):
terrible.
And I cannot bear to hope againtonight.
And so I will try to dull down,numb down, tamp down my wanter,
my sexual wanter.
You know, I don't know anyonethat hasn't, you know, been
(24:41):
caught in that bind at somepoint in their life.
The question is not so muchwhat is your relationship to
sexuality?
The question there is what isyour war with hope?
What is your war with hope?
Because our wars with hopeinevitably confront us with our
(25:02):
relationship with God.
What can I trust that God willdo for me in the land of the
living?
And I have this term calledChristian cynicism.
There's nothing Christian aboutit, but I hear it from
Christians a lot, and it comesin the form of look, Adam, it's
a broken world, I'm not going toget everything I want until
(25:22):
heaven, so stop wanting.
It's cynicism that's fueled bytheology, but it's horrible
theology why?
Because it's premised on theidea of unrealistic expectations
.
On the idea of unrealisticexpectations, the idea is it's
(25:43):
unrealistic, Adam, for me toexpect that all my desires are
going to be met Okay, but youdon't know which ones.
You don't know which ones, andthere is nothing more
unrealistic than theresurrection of Jesus Christ
from the grave.
And so you, if you're Christian, you are living in the reality
(26:06):
that what was the mostunrealistic thing on the planet
from happening the raising of aman from the dead happened.
So you are dealing with a worldwe could say of wonder and of
gift and of surprise, but youdon't want to wrestle with God
about your particular hopes anddesires, because it's too
(26:29):
painful.
So these are the wars thatsexuality so often ushers us
into.
They are wars with God and theyare wars with hope.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
And those wars are very painful and often I mean
that's an understatement, yeah.
And yet I think some of usdon't feel permission.
We don't feel permission to behonest with God.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
We don't feel permission to be honest with God
, absolutely.
So many Christians that I'veworked with that I know,
including myself have learnedthat it is not appropriate for
me to wrestle with God.
It's not permitted for me tofeel disappointment in God or
(27:19):
anger at God.
God's God.
I'm a creature.
He's the creator, I'm thecreated.
Who am I?
The thinking goes.
Who am I to war with God aboutmy desires and disappointments?
I'm called to surrender thatstuff.
(27:40):
This is the thinking, and one ofmy favorite passages whenever
somebody is saying this to me iswhat's known in the Bible as
the parable of the persistentwidow in Luke 18.
It should be called the parableof the widow who refused to
surrender to God's will, becausethe whole point of the parable,
(28:00):
the whole point, jesus's entirepoint in using this parable, is
that the woman, if you'refamiliar with the woman goes to
an unjust judge and demandsjustice against her adversary,
against her adversary.
And Jesus's point in sharingthe parable is that it was her
(28:28):
to use an old word importunance.
It was her persistence, it washer refusal to take no for an
answer from the unjust judge whoJesus is paralleling to God,
the Father.
That is why she went homesatisfied.
And so the question for those ofus who believe in the
scriptures and in Luke 18 is ifJesus told that parable, what
(28:52):
would it be like for you to takeyour demands, your longings,
your desires to God in prayer?
I'm not against surrender, I'mall for surrender.
But surrender implies a12-round wrestling match with
(29:14):
the other person, in this caseGod.
You don't surrender untilyou've come to the end of your
resources through the fight.
Nobody surrenders at thebeginning, so surrender is a
deeply misunderstood term inmost Christian circles.
In my opinion, it requires adeeply candid wrestling match
(29:39):
with God which is personal andwhere something happens in your
heart through your engagementwith God by insisting—here's the
parable of the persistentwidow—insisting on the goodness
of your desire for, in her case,justice.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Well, personally, I don't feel fully equipped to be
able to do that by myself.
Okay, and I imagine many othersare feeling the same way.
We need some guidance.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
And so I'm really excited about your upcoming
presentation at the Porn-Freeman Conference, where you're
going to be helping us engageGod about our stories.
Yeah, can you say more aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Sure, I'm going to not only teach about how do you
engage with God about yoursorrow, about your anger, about
your grief, about your longings,but we're going to do an
exercise together where I kindof guide you through the process
of writing down some sentencesthat your heart would like to
(30:53):
express to your God and then, ifyou feel so inclined, you can
take the risk during, you know,privately, during this time, to
express those, to speak thosesentences to God.
So we have ample resources inthe book of Psalms, in the book
(31:13):
of Jeremiah, the book of Job,the book of Lamentations of
people candidly expressingdisappointment to God,
expressing anger at God,expressing anger at others to
God.
My point is there is biblicalroom and biblical precedent
(31:35):
galore for a candid expressionof what Tim Keller called
pre-reflectively pouring outyour feelings.
I love that termpre-reflectively.
What does he mean by that?
He means, before you've thoughtabout it and decided whether
it's appropriate to express to aholy God, you just pour it out,
(31:56):
you just let it go.
Why?
Because you believe that God isaware that it's in you and is
wanting your face, your heart,your truthful soul, expression
(32:17):
of longing, of anger, of sorrow,of whatever's inside of you
that particular day to beexpressed to your God, because
intimacy requires honesty, andso I think that there is so much
, not just like mental healthreasons for expressing yourself
(32:38):
to God, but biblical precedent,biblical permission in those
books that I just enumerated,for a very honest and forthright
fighting with God, expressingour emotions to God, and I think
God's honored by it, and Ithink your relationship with God
(32:59):
will change in the process ofdoing that.
He welcomes those parts of us.
He welcomes those parts.
That's a great way to put it.
He welcomes those parts of us.
Why don't we?
Speaker 1 (33:14):
And he can handle it.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
And he's not surprised by it.
It's not like he's sittingthere like, oh, I didn't know,
you felt this way, but he wantsyou to own it.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
He wants us to take our big feelings and our messy
emotions and our unedited issuesto him and our unedited issues
to him.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Yeah, yes, I believe that, and I believe that that's
what the Psalms model for us.
Lamentations, jeremiah, I mean,there's so many places.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yeah, so I'm really excited to be able to sit with
you and all be able to do thattogether in less than a month
here.
Yes, it's going to be awesome,and I'm specifically thinking
about our sexual stories andwhat aspects of those we might
want to engage with God about.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Yeah, and I think that the starting point needs to
be either a place ofdisappointment or a place of
shame, either a place ofdisappointment or a place of
shame.
So for so many people can yoube honest about where you are
sexually disappointed, andthere's so many categories for
that.
But can you write down in yourjournal two or three sentences
(34:33):
of where you've experiencedsexual disappointment in the
past year?
And, if you can, how do youwant to engage God about that
disappointment?
So that would be the categoryof disappointment.
The second category would bethe category of shame.
Where do you feel sexual shameand do you believe that God
(34:59):
would like to have someconversation with you about your
sexual shame?
What would it look like just toinvite the Spirit of God into
the memories of sexual shame?
And for many of us that's avery intense experience.
It's a very vulnerableexperience and an experience
where we bring so much sense ofcondemnation that it can be hard
(35:24):
to go there.
But again, if there's nocondemnation for those who are
in Christ Jesus, if it is dyingfor you to invite his presence,
his spirit, into your places ofshame and disappointment.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Amen, that's so beautiful.
And if you guys want to hearmore about this, you go down to
the links in the show notes andyou can find Adam's podcast and
you can pre-order his upcomingbook, make Sense of your Story.
And I would love for you tojoin us on January 10th and 11th
(36:08):
at the Porn-Free man conferenceespecially for this session
about engaging God about yourstory, and you can do that at
thepornfreemancom.
Adam, what is your favoritething about engaging your story?
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Oh, nobody's ever asked me that.
You know, I don't want tomiscommunicate that I think it's
fun.
I do think it's fun, but it'snot fun without heartache, it's
not fun without fear, it's notfun without a sense of
trepidation.
I mean, so much of engaging mystory has been coupled with a
sense of like if I go there, I'mnot going to come back Like I'm
(36:48):
not going to be a functioningdad, husband, employee, like it
will pull me under.
So I want to be honest that Iknow from personal experience
that engaging your story,reflecting on some of these
deeply, deeply disturbingmemories that we all have, can
(37:09):
be overwhelming at times.
But it can also be fun.
And when I say fun, what I meanis, ultimately, there's nothing
more fun for me than overcomingevil with good we could use the
biblical language there Thanovercoming evil with good.
And what do I mean by that?
(37:30):
Well, a story that is unengagedis a story that has you bound,
a story that you cannot tellpublicly and I don't mean to the
world, but to two or threetrained, trusted people is a
story that has you stuck, stillin shame.
So if you are willing to writeand read your, then there's
(38:07):
something deeply disrupting ofthe power of evil in that
process, and we could say, at abare minimum, shame is overcome
with the light.
By the light I mean telling thestory to another person and
seeing their reaction.
So when we do that, there'ssomething really fun about the
relief, about the humor thatoften comes about, the surprise
(38:29):
of I didn't see that, I thoughtthis was all bad, nothing good.
And you're pointing somethingout to me as you hear the story
and I am surprised by yourreaction to my story.
That's a level of community andintimacy that I think is really
fun and really freeing.
So there's joy, there's joy.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
There's joy and on the other side of entering into
these stories of shame,disappointment and death,
there's resurrection.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
There's resurrection, absolutely, but there can be no
resurrection without death.
That's just axiomatic.
And many of us are trying toexperience hope, healing,
resurrection, goodness, joy,without descending into the
depths of our story, and I justdon't think you can do that.
(39:26):
That's so good.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
So let's descend into the depths together, trusting
that resurrection is coming.
Adam, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
You're welcome.
This was fun for me.
You asked great questions.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Thanks and always remember my friend.
You are God's beloved son.
In you he is well-pleased.
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