July 14, 2025 • 50 mins
In this powerful live demo, John Kilmer guides Drew Boa in parts work focused on Drew's addiction to screens. This episode is an example of Manly Monday, one of the weekly HMA Coaching Calls. Learn more and join HMA this week only at joinHMA.com.
John Kilmer is a Mental Health Life Coach, Occupational Therapist, and Certified Husband Material Coach. He's a grateful follower of Jesus who is passionate about men's inner healing work. Learn more about John at relaxedcaregiver.com.
Take the Husband Material Journey...
- Step 1: Listen to this podcast or watch on YouTube
- Step 2: Join the private Husband Material Community
- Step 3: Take the free mini-course: How To Outgrow Porn
- Step 4: Try the all-in-one program: Husband Material Academy
Thanks for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thank you so much forwatching this demonstration of
(00:23):
HMA Manly Monday, led by JohnKilmer, where I received
coaching from John in the hotseat.
So I was the focus of thiscoaching call and other men were
witnessing what happened as Iprocessed a new area of focus
for me, which is my relationshipwith digital devices.
(00:46):
Underneath my unwanted sexualbehavior, there was actually a
deeper addiction to screens thatstarted when I was a little boy
.
I have been in denial aboutthat for a few years, and this
year I've been starting to makesome changes, and this recording
(01:08):
that you're about to watch isthe next step in my journey
towards health and being able tohave a healthy relationship.
What you're about to witnessactually happens every week in
HMA.
We only open up HMA twice ayear and right now the doors are
open, so if you would like tolearn more, go to join HMAcom
(01:31):
and enjoy the episode.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Welcome in to Manly Monday.
Today, our hot seat man is DrewBoa, and normally on Manly
Monday we like to celebratemasculinity and we talk a little
bit at the beginning of ManlyMonday about the essence of
masculinity.
(01:53):
What is it?
What is it, particularly in oursociety where we have so much
confusion around what is truefeminine, what is true masculine
right, and so what we like tosay here on Manly Monday is the
essence of masculinity is topush through difficulty and to
succeed.
(02:14):
You know, it is said that thewarrior carries fear on the end
of his spear, and that is whatmakes him so powerful.
Like we're aware of thedifficulty, we're aware of our
weakness and still we moveforward, right.
And there's another phrase thatwas coined, I think, by Leanne
Payne, who was a wonderfulteacher about inner Christian
(02:37):
healing, and she said she talksabout masculine and feminine
very beautifully and she says nohardened feminist can look at
the Chicago skyline and saywoman did that.
And then she'll say womandidn't do that, man did that.
And in a really beautiful wayshe celebrates how the essence
(02:58):
of masculinity is to piercethrough difficulty and to create
, to build, to speak intosomebody's life, for example,
and create life.
In that we even see that in thesex act to create life, to
enter in and create life, tobuild, even to tear down to make
(03:21):
something new.
And so we usually spend a fewminutes celebrating the
masculine triumphs that we haveall experienced.
So this time we won't be doingthat, but we are going to
celebrate Drew Boa, and he hasagreed to come on to be in the
hot seat today for Manly Monday.
(03:43):
And what we do in Manly Mondayis we work getting unstuck.
What happens a lot in ourjourney, especially those of us
who are traumatized.
We get in this place ofstuckness because there's parts
of ourselves inside that arewarring right, and so this work
that we do is called pillow workor chair work.
(04:04):
We actually work on separatingthose parts of ourselves out and
becoming more unstuck.
In the end, the goal is a lotmore clarity so we can move
forward in our masculine journeybe decisive and kind of get a
better hit on what our path isforward.
So, drew, how are you feelingright now?
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Vulnerable, overwhelmed, grateful and small.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Thank you.
You're vulnerable, overwhelmed,grateful and small is all
welcome.
It's all welcome.
Can I say a prayer, please?
Jesus, thank you, thank you forbeing here, and it really hits
me that you yourself were onetime small.
(05:02):
Hits me that you yourself wereone time small.
You also know what it's like tobe grateful and to be
vulnerable and to be overwhelmed, and you came to this world as
a man and experienced ourcondition in your own body,
which is just incredible, and Ithank you for that.
(05:25):
And I thank you for Drew, and Iask that you would come
powerfully into his story todayto bring healing, to bring
clarity and to help move himforward in a new and masculine
way by the end of this hour.
Thank you so much for yourpresence here.
(05:45):
Amen, amen.
So share with us, drew.
Talk to us a little bit.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Underneath my attachment to pornography, there
was an even deeper attachmentand addiction to screens.
It started with my Game Boy anda Windows 98 computer and a
(06:25):
Windows 98 computer.
It progressed to TV and videogames and then finally, with my
current device, the smartphone.
While the smartphone has been ahuge blessing to me and it has
(06:47):
been a huge blessing, through me, to others, it has also slowly,
subtly, silently, sank itshooks into my heart and I have a
very unhealthy relationshipwith it.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
I'm hearing you, yes, and so tell us more about the
unhealth.
I have an unhealthyrelationship with it.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
My unhealthy relationship with my phone is
most evident at night, when mykids have been screaming and not
going to sleep, getting up outof bed again and again.
(07:43):
I never really know whenthey're finally done and when
they fight with each other andwhen they don't go along with
what I want.
It wears me down.
It wears me down and myreserves of patience and
(08:19):
kindness are almost gone.
In that state, toward the endof the night I feel an intense
need to numb, to kill the pain,to somehow cushion the intensity
(08:40):
of what I feel, of what I feel.
Sometimes I have aggressivethoughts, violent thoughts
toward my children, and numbingout on my phone protects them
from my own violence.
I don't like spending an houron my phone at night continuing
(09:08):
to work or continuing toaccomplish tasks, and I see how
it helps me survive and it keepsmy kids safe.
Yeah, it really sabotages myrelationship with my wife,
because that's some of the onlytime we have together yeah, oh,
(09:30):
my goodness drew.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
It's like, have you been a fly on the wall at my
house?
I just wanted to say me too, metoo, like by the end of our day
we are exhausted, both my wifeand I.
And the getting up out of bedover and over and the fighting,
I get it.
I'm in the trenches with you.
(09:53):
You're not alone.
Two parts of yourself or yourrelationship with your phone and
let's tweak this a little bitto kind of get some more clarity
.
There's the part where yourphone serves you not only
through your work but to connectwith safe others right, and it
(10:19):
also serves you to neuroregulatewhen you're like over the top,
overwhelmed, right am I tracking?
Yes, yeah, yeah, and thenthere's the part of your phone
use that does not serve you andmaybe you could speak to that a
little bit more the part thatdoes not serve me blurs the line
(10:45):
between being at work and beingat home.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, the phone makes it possible for me to work
anytime anywhere, so it reallyfeeds a work addiction, a
workaholism.
It also crowds out any spacefor connection with my wife.
It's competing for my heart anda lot of times it's winning.
(11:13):
I like having my phone as atool and it's a very helpful
tool and it's a very poor person, you know, but I'm like
treating it as if it's acherished member of my family.
I just want it to be a tool.
(11:35):
I don't want it to be like mysecret lover.
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yes, yes, yeah, oh my goodness.
Yes, yes, yeah.
And my guess is there are a tonof men on this call that can
(12:03):
that you're going to for solace,or using it to numb out, or
like treating it as a person,like going to it for solace, for
example, instead of your fleshand blood.
Lovely wife, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yeah, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yes, and so there's two parts of yourself here, or
two aspects regarding this.
The part that, like, I must usethis, I must use the phone in
order to self-regulate, and Ialso must do that.
One last thing on HM and checkin with that.
(12:39):
One last person before I go tobed, right, last person before I
go to bed, right.
So not only is it aself-regulator but also a work,
you know, an encroachment ofwork into family life sort of a
thing, right?
Speaker 1 (12:51):
In my mind, this is ministry, this is the work of
Jesus.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yes, right, absolutely.
And so, of course, I need to bedoing this right now, right.
And then just speak the othervoice briefly.
We want to get really clear onthe two, and your chair has
rollers on it, right?
Yes, because we're going to beshifting into two different
positions.
(13:16):
Right, because both of theseparts are at war within us and
neither one of them has beenallowed to fully be seen,
witnessed, cared for.
Right, and to say everything tounburden, to use an IFS term
(13:37):
Right.
So this is the goal of what wewant to work on today, and then,
at the end, we'll come to thecenter, which is kind of a place
of healthy self where you'reholding both of these but not
attaching to an outcome oneither side.
Right.
So speak briefly.
(13:57):
We've really heard reallyclearly from this side of the
attachment to the phone.
Speak briefly so we get clarity.
The side side that says I can'tbe doing this I love my wife
and I'm not acting like it.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, especially at night, after the kids go to bed
or while the kids are continuingto come out of bed.
Yes, there is also an aspect ofhypocrisy here, where I'm
helping men outgrow pornography,and a lot of times that means
(14:44):
changing your relationship withdigital devices.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Yeah, setting boundaries on where and when and
why I'm using these devices inorder to keep myself safe and
keep my family from having toexperience the negative
consequences of addictivebehavior.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
And so I have been in denial about this for years,
because it's not sexualized,right, right.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
And so I need to come out of denial and deal with
this because it's hurting me.
It hasn't been hurting my kidsas much, thankfully.
I've been doing some work onbeing more present with them,
but after the kids aresupposedly asleep, that's when I
(15:43):
still need to detach from thephone so I can attach to the
person I love the most.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, yeah, I'm hearing you really clearly.
Thank you, and thank you foryour courage and extraordinary
vulnerability coming with thisissue.
Thanks, john.
So which of these voices needsto speak first, and what part of
your office would you like thatto be in?
(16:09):
And it can be a slight shift.
It can be two inches to theright or the left, but it does
need to be a bodily movementright.
And if you have another chair,some men actually have another
chair.
They sit in right, and I lovethat you're doing this.
You're stretching and I'm goingto do it too, and all of you
other men are welcome to do that, because our nervous systems
(16:31):
hate transitions.
This is why your children aregetting up at night, by the way,
and running, running around.
Our children do it too.
I hate transitions.
It's very hard, and so eventhis like transitioning into
like wow, am I actually allowedto fully embody one of these
(16:52):
aspects of myself?
And the answer is yes, but astretch and a breath is great to
kind of get our nervous systemready for that.
So which side in yourenvironment would you, if you,
want, to hold your hands out in?
front of you for example, whichside would you say this dynamic
(17:12):
of I must have this phone tosurvive and I must be using it
in the ways I am right now tosurvive?
Where would that live it?
Speaker 1 (17:22):
would live over here on this side.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
On your right, okay.
And then the side that says Iabsolutely cannot keep doing
this.
It's a detriment to my marriageand probably myself, because
I'm not living real life in someways by escaping to my phone or
letting work encroach into it.
Right, that lives where, On theother side there, okay.
(17:47):
So just hold your hands infront of the screen out in front
of you, right and left, and Ijust want you to close your eyes
for a moment and breathe andfeel the weight of both of these
.
Just notice, notice the weight,and which one feels more like
(18:15):
it needs a voice right now theleft side, the left side.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Okay, great, so shift your chair over there.
And if you need to, if you'rereally there, great.
But if you need to, you can dosome more nervous system work to
kind of get there Right.
And, by the way, when we dothis work, it's very common to
go into a blended state wherethat other side is talking as
well and this we'll talk aboutthat if it comes up.
(18:46):
But this is your opportunity tofully embody this part of
yourself, this aspect ofyourself, and to speak
everything out that you need toabout why this is absolutely
necessary and true.
Okay, and we will also get intopart of your judgments toward
(19:08):
the self over on the right.
So if you need to just take amoment to really kind of get
there, Do you want me to speakfrom my gut?
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Just whatever flows out.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Everything is welcome .
This is, this is youropportunity to allow yourself,
possibly in a way you never havebefore, to express everything
from this part of yourself youidiot, you hypocrite.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
You talk about regulating your nervous system
without porn, but look, you'redoing it with the same device
that all your clients use towatch porn.
You are no better, you are nodifferent, but you pretend to
have so much freedom.
Look at what you do every night.
(20:03):
You look identical to the guysyou're trying to help, just
totally zoned out on the phone,and you haven't healed your
inner child, who's still totallyattached to the screen.
You haven't healed your innerchild, who's still totally
(20:24):
attached to the screen.
You're so easily overwhelmed.
Your capacity to be present isso low.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
What kind of a person does this sort of a thing?
Speaker 1 (20:38):
A liar, someone who's weak?
Speaker 2 (20:44):
A liar, someone who's weak?
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Bad husband, bad father.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, yeah.
So these two parts are very atwar within yourself.
These are judgments that youhave toward the self over on the
right side of your screen,right, and what is this costing
you and your wife?
Speaker 1 (21:19):
It's costing us intimacy emotionally, physically
, sexually, spiritually Makes itso that when I do spend time
with her in the evening, it's somuch harder to connect because
I feel like I'm constantlytrying not to do what I usually
(21:39):
do.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah, and from your wife's perspective, if she were
here, what would she say this iscosting her?
What would she say this iscosting her?
Me, yeah, she's like, where areyou drew?
I don't have you.
I don't have you.
In these precious few momentsbefore we both fall into bed,
exhausted I don't have you andspeak from this place a little
(22:02):
bit about how work, theencroachment of work, is
affecting this, you and yourmarriage.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
I'm doing what my dad did.
I say I come home at areasonable hour and I work a
reasonable number of hours perweek, but then I've got six to
10 shadow hours of work.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Right, always on the clock.
Just one more thing to do.
Is there anything else?
This place, from this place andthis chair, you get to allow
yourself to fully embody thisplace.
(22:48):
Really feel it to say anythingthat needs to be said our time
is short.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
This pattern is eating up parts of my life that
I can't get back yeah, our timeis short, no kidding.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Life just like that it's gone.
Children just like that they'regrown.
And this part is eating, eatingeating and eating up consuming
me.
How do you feel with thisdynamic?
Speaker 1 (23:31):
As soon as I just said that, I felt a moment of
clarity.
Tell me more.
It was easier to see what isreally happening.
When I consider the brevity oflife yeah, I'm going to die.
(23:52):
Yeah, is really happening whenI consider the the brevity of
life yeah, I'm gonna die.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
and yeah, yeah, that gave me some sobriety, like in
the sense of sobering me up likeso healthy self, a moment of
healthy self, clarity, right,which we're going to get to by
the end of this call, becausethe healthy self holds this
tension you're feeling right nowand the desire that I must have
(24:15):
my phone in these other waysright, yeah, because it's
serving me well right.
So healthy self showed up rightthere.
That's beautiful, that's good.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
When I first started out, it was not healthy self.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
No, and healthy self is in the center, like kind of
where your empty bookshelves areright there in the middle.
So we're going to get thereright and we're all a blend of
these things, but we rarely getthe opportunity to separate
these aspects of ourself outbecause life is coming at us so
hard, right?
Do you want to say anythingabout your sense of grief in
(24:56):
this place?
Speaker 1 (25:00):
I grieve that years of my life as a kid and as a
teenager were consumed by thescreen.
When I see my kids now, I can'timagine them wasting all the
(25:22):
time that I did and I feelgrieved that it was my best
option.
I feel grieved that it was mybest option.
Yeah, I feel grieved that Ichose the best thing I could
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Right, I'm sitting with you in that grief, my
friend.
It has cost you a lot and itcontinues to cost you a lot.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
I guess what I'm saying is I grieve the reasons
why this developed.
Yeah Right.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Right used to cost you a lot.
I guess what I'm saying is Igrieve the reasons why this
developed yeah, right, right andhealthy self actually holds
that with great tenderness right, which we'll get to, and you've
done a lot of work on this.
Like there were valid reasonswhy you, why you, found solace
in screen time, very validreasons, and so we, in some ways
(26:14):
, we can thank that part of yourlife right for protecting you
and for giving you connection,even if it was pseudo connection
yes, right yeah, anything leftunsaid yeah, there was something
right toward the beginning andand it is eluding me I think it
(26:36):
may be a part that felt sovulnerable that it's not ready
to come out again and we respectthat.
It may decide to later on inthis call or sometime in the
future.
Yeah, Good work.
So we're about ready to stepinto fully, fully embody the
(27:01):
part of yourself that absolutelymust use the screen in the ways
you've described and continueyour phone use, and why you must
do that?
Because it's serving you in aparticular way, right?
So what I usually invite men todo is to kind of allow yourself
to shake off the energy of thecurrent chair you're in in
(27:22):
whatever way you like brushing,shaking, moving.
You could even stand up if youneed to, and when you're ready
you can move over to the rightside of your screen.
So close your eyes for a momentand just take a couple of deep
(27:48):
breaths in this place.
So this is the place where youget to fully and perhaps say
things you've never felt youcould say.
(28:09):
Fully embody this aspect ofyourself that absolutely must
continue using your phone duringfamily time to regulate after
the children are settling intobed, that it must be used in
lieu of connecting with yourwife and it must be used to
(28:30):
continue your work long into thenight with HM, right?
So there's nothing you need tohold back from this place.
Fully embody this aspect ofyourself and speak from this
place.
Share with us.
We're here with you.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
This is Little Drew speaking.
I have no friends.
The screen is my friend, thevideo games are my friends.
When I play Pokemon on my GameBoy, I'm somebody, I have a
(29:24):
mission, I'm powerful.
Yes, I have a purpose.
Right, I'm accomplishing things, mm-hmm.
And when I respond to people onhusband material, I have that
(29:46):
same feeling of holding my GameBoy and being powerful and
purposeful and accomplishingthings and being on a mission
and being someone who I like.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yes, yes.
Which are all good things.
I want to speak into thatgoodness right.
All those are good things.
They're masculine endeavors.
Manly Monday talks aboutmasculine endeavors.
We all need a purpose, we allneed to feel our power, we all
need to have a mission, right?
Speaker 1 (30:21):
And there's another side of it.
This is little Drew speaking.
I can't get angry, can't gettoo angry, can't get too sad.
I just have to get through thisyeah, I can't get angry or sad.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
I just have to get through this, and this is the
only way no one's there for meright?
No one is there for me, right?
Speaker 1 (30:51):
No one is there for me, and now, when it's late at
night, the people who I wouldcall are asleep.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Yeah, so no one's available.
Just like when you were young.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
No one's available except Gmail, yep and text
messaging.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Yep and WhatsApp voice shares they're always
available.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
That's really nice.
It is really nice.
And that voice shares they'realways available.
That's really nice.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
It is really nice and that is good.
It's a way to authenticallyconnect with others using your
device.
So how does this dynamic serveyou when you're dysregulated?
Like, why do you deserve to beon your phone when your children
(31:51):
have been screaming all evening?
Speaker 1 (31:54):
because it takes the edge off of my feelings less
jagged yeah, it's like a littleshot of vodka.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
This is water, by the way really is, it's my version
of that?
Yep, absolutely.
And why do you need that?
This is where you get to fullyspeak from this part of yourself
, fully embody it, like it withthe intensity of why this is
absolutely necessary.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
I need that because I don't want to be angry.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
It's uncomfortable to feel angry.
I don don't want to be angry.
It's uncomfortable to feelangry.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
I don't even want to be sad.
I want to be happy when Ifinally, at the end of the day,
yeah, yeah.
But the truth is I don't feelthose happy feelings.
I feel sadness at the lost timeand maybe some relief at the
(32:55):
end of the day.
Truth is, all I haveemotionally is scraps.
Yeah, it's easier to distractmyself and if I don't try to
connect with Rebecca then Ican't fail.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Right, right.
There's a lot of safety inbeing on our devices, right, we
have control and we're notrisking real relationship, so
therefore, we can't fail.
How does it feel to be in thischair and to speak honestly
(33:38):
about why this aspect is sonecessary?
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Feels vulnerable.
Yeah, yeah, it makes sense, Ifeel anger.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yes, talk more about that.
Speak from that angry place.
You're allowed to be angry Ifeel angry that this is so
difficult every night yeah, but,and again, this is your full,
full on opportunity to fullyembody this place.
(34:12):
So what do you judge about yourwife telling you you shouldn't
be on your phone from this seatself-drew boa, but this is like
from this place, when she had,when she wants you to actually
(34:34):
relate, but you absolutely mustbe on your phone to get these
things done for hm, or to justrelax, for goodness sake, and
she's asking you to be inrelationship with her.
How do you judge her?
Speaker 1 (34:48):
it feels so wrong to say this.
I know it's not true.
The thought is that she doesn'tunderstand.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
She doesn't understand people who who are
trying to get me to get off mydevice or being unreasonable,
and they don't understand howdoes it feel to unburden that?
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Doesn't feel good.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
I hear you.
I hear you, and generallyspeaking, with this chair work
as we allow ourselves to fullyembody wherever we're at right,
it's easy to be blended here,but as we allow ourselves to
fully embody, sometimes there'ssomething from one of these
sides that really needs to besaid.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Okay, it's not the big, angry, violent part of me
that's saying she doesn'tunderstand.
It's a little boy curled upinto a ball Saying she doesn't
understand.
Really, no one understands.
My parents didn't understand.
Really, no one understands.
My parents didn't understand.
(35:53):
I really wanted my parents tojoin me in the video games or
things I was doing on a screen.
They never showed any interest.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
It's shared reality.
Yeah, yeah, a shared joy.
I's shared reality.
Yeah, a shared joy.
I'm so sorry, thanks.
What part of you wants to say,if any, and again, you can
discard this if it's notcongruent with how you're
feeling, congruent with howyou're feeling, but what part of
(36:31):
you wants to say how much youdeserve this in light of how
dysregulating your children can?
Speaker 1 (36:35):
be.
I don't want to frighten themand my intense reactions can be
frightening, so anything thatdulls my emotional state is
helpful.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Right and more into this energy.
Why, when you're dysregulated,it's like I have absolutely got
to have a break here.
Like they have pushed me to mylast wire Right.
Like I deserve this because Ihave to have a break from it.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
I'm having another flash of healthy self in this
moment okay, we're about readyto step there.
Go ahead last night, instead ofgoing to my phone and working,
I got out a children's Biblecalled the Book of Belonging.
(37:33):
It's really beautiful and Iallowed myself to read it and it
was so nurturing.
Yesterday was Mother's Day andat church I had a moment where I
(38:04):
told God I have not allowed youto mother me, and this book of
belonging mothered me last night.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Oh, Drew, as soon as this call is over, I'm getting
on Amazon and I'm going to orderthe book of belonging for me
and my children.
Oh, that sounds good.
Yeah, it seems good.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
The main message of this children's Bible is you
belong, you are beloved and youare delightful.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
So good, all messages we needed so strongly as boys
filling up as I say that yeah,are you ready to step into the
healthy self?
like you, typically, when thesetwo parts unburden a bit, then
suddenly it's like, oh, I'mready, I'm there.
(39:04):
Yeah, so move.
Let's do a couple breaths tokind of shed yourself of this
absolute must for screen time.
I was gonna ask you one morething in this chair and I think
I will like why is it absolutelynecessary for you to do the 10
(39:25):
plus?
Did you say five hours, fiveextra hours of what did you call
them Shadow hours?
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Shadow hours of work.
And now, hey I, I justremembered what that thought was
.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
You want to move over to the left.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Okay, I finally got the thought.
Yes, we got the thought.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Yes, okay, so you're.
You're in what energy now?
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Yes, I got the thought yes, okay, so you're in
what energy now?
Yes, this thought was sovulnerable and scary to share
that I blocked it out.
Yeah, I first came to termswith this screen addiction two
months ago and at that time myaverage screen time per day was
(40:16):
about six and a half hours, juston my phone.
That's not including thecomputer.
My average screen time per dayright now is four and a half
hours.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
And that's just on my phone.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
So it's decreased.
Yes, congratulations.
Tell us more about thevulnerability piece over there
that felt so hard to say that.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
It puts a number on it.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Yeah, it makes it real.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
It makes you realize how I'm not just making this up.
And everybody has an addictionto their phone.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
No, this is real yeah yeah, absolutely, and it's
vulnerable to be real, thank you.
So we're going to move intohealthy self, but I want to give
you the opportunity to sayanything else over on the far
other side, to talk more fromthis side.
Yes, yes, and, by the way, ifwe were doing this in person, we
(41:28):
would linger here for a coupleof hours if we needed to, and
really go back and forth tofully unburden each side.
That's what's lovely.
We're limited in on thisparticular venue but, yes, keep
speaking.
So, this side again, for thoseof you who are listening by
audio, could you state this sideagain?
Speaker 1 (41:48):
This is this side, drew, where this is the side
that cradles my phone and callsit my precious, like Gollum.
Yes, yes yes, Okay.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
what else needs to be said from this place?
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Little Drew likes the book of belonging better than
the book.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Yay, that sounds like healthy self.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Actually Reading an adult book feels too much like
work.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Yeah, yeah, I mean talk about all the recovery
books you've read, right, yeah?
Reading a kid's book withoutreal kids in my lap feels
nurturing so good, so I don'tfeel like this is the part of
yourself that absolutely musthave the phone this is a little
(42:45):
drew.
Yeah, this is part of yourhealthy self that can hold the
tension of not having the phonein this moment.
Right, Because you foundsomething better.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
When I was a kid, before the screens really took
over my life, I was a voraciousreader.
Books are always available.
Books can take me into anotherworld yeah, books can help me
escape, yeah, and they regulateme in a way that feels good and
I don't have the ickinessattached to it.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And books like are I don don'tknow, you hold your phone
physically, but there'ssomething about a book, an
actual book, where you turnpages and you can smell it and
you can feel it and there'sactual pictures there that are.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
It is so regulating little drew is saying books are
my friends yeah.
Yeah, books are alwaysavailable.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
So good, so good.
So do you want to move intoyour healthy self in the center
and again take a couple ofbreaths and really embody this?
Allow your body to hold ahealthy posture.
(44:12):
Hold on, I need to do theshake-off thing.
Okay, sure, go ahead, do whatyou need to Say what you need to
Really clean that off.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
I am not Little Drew.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Little Drew is a part of me, yeah, and you're not big
drew, who feels like you haveto hold the world together with
hm and therefore work five extrahours.
Shadow hours.
Oh, you're speaking my language.
I do shadow hours myselfthrough y.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
Yikes.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Yeah, yeah, right, good, thank you for taking that
time to do that for yourself.
So allow yourself to take somedeep breaths from this healthy
place, healthy self place, andthis is the place where the
Spirit of God lives in you, inyou, and this is the place where
(45:15):
you hold both of these tensionsand you do not attach to one
strongly as an outcome or theother, but you're able to see
them both from a king's throne,if you will, right, yeah, and so
what do you want to speak toboth of these parts of yourself,
from this healthy part?
Speaker 1 (45:29):
I love both of these parts of myself.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Yeah, tell me more about why.
Why do they both serve you?
Speaker 1 (45:40):
I love little Drew because he wants to make sure
that I am cared for.
I'm not just pouring myself outall the time.
Yes, he wants to make sure thatI actually just receive.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
I need that.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Yes, so good, so good .
And this other part of me overhere, the inner critic, the
concerned part of me, wants meto outgrow what I did as a kid.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Yes, yes, yes, right and wants for you true
connection.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Yeah, wow, he wants that too.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Yeah, and from your healthy self, you can hold both
of these.
And, by the way, the healthyself also is honoring your deep
desire to be of service to yourChristian brothers in their hour
of need, right, and thereforethe extra hours that you put in,
(46:58):
like your healthy self can holdthat that.
There's good intent behind that.
Yeah, and there's also goodintent, which you just spoke to,
behind your need to connect.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
I like how both sides want something better for me.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
Yes, yes, and I just want to say you deserve to find
some ways to regulate yourselfafter your children have been
screaming all evening from onedad to another.
You deserved that.
Thanks, john, and there's waysto find that that will serve
your marriage and will serve youwell, and I love that you found
(47:35):
that book.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
The Book of Belonging .
Speaker 2 (47:38):
The Book of Belonging .
Speaker 1 (47:39):
Thank you, Both sides realize that I've been settling
for something less than what Icould have.
Speaker 2 (47:51):
Right.
And to live in the healthy self, by the way, is to live in
tension.
Many of us from traumatizedbackgrounds are very black and
white in our thinking.
It's either or right.
But to live in the healthy selfis to actually live in tension.
Christ himself lived in greattension, like there were
(48:13):
expectations from the rulers,the synagogue and the Jewish
people that he was not meetingand he was threatened.
You know they were threateninghim.
There were expectations fromhis own family, from his
disciples, and he lived in thattension and he lived well in
that tension.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
And we can too.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Amen, so good.
How does it feel to be in thehealthy self and to witness
these parts of yourself?
Speaker 1 (48:42):
It feels good and right to live in the tension.
One of my college professorsalways told me to live in the
tension, because if you're notliving in the tension, you're
not living.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
That's so annoying and so good, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Yeah, I feel like I have space to hold both sides
and that feels really good.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
Yeah, and by the way, you look very manly in your
healthy self.
Thank, you.
I feel, that.
I see it.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
I feel the difference in my face and my posture.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Absolutely Good, powerful work, and you got a lot
of affirmations in the chatfrom men who also were
resonating deeply with your work, so I'll send those to you,
just so you have them in anemail.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
Thank you, John and guys.
Thank you so much for youraffirmations.
I haven't been looking at thembecause I've been focused on the
process, but I will read themall later.
Yes, Thank you for being herewith me.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
Thank you, Drew, for your vulnerability and for
paving the way for many of us tokeep doing this deep work.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
Thank you, John.
Your healthy self has made adifference for me.
Love you, Drew.
Love you too.
Thank you so much forwitnessing this part of my
healing process.
If you would like to join HMA,we open the doors twice a year,
once in January and once in July.
Right now, you can learn moreat joinhmacom and always
(50:23):
remember you are God's belovedson and you he is well pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thank you so much forwatching this demonstration of
(00:23):
HMA Manly Monday, led by JohnKilmer, where I received
coaching from John in the hotseat.
So I was the focus of thiscoaching call and other men were
witnessing what happened as Iprocessed a new area of focus
for me, which is my relationshipwith digital devices.
(00:46):
Underneath my unwanted sexualbehavior, there was actually a
deeper addiction to screens thatstarted when I was a little boy
.
I have been in denial aboutthat for a few years, and this
year I've been starting to makesome changes, and this recording
(01:08):
that you're about to watch isthe next step in my journey
towards health and being able tohave a healthy relationship.
What you're about to witnessactually happens every week in
HMA.
We only open up HMA twice ayear and right now the doors are
open, so if you would like tolearn more, go to join HMAcom
(01:31):
and enjoy the episode.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Welcome in to Manly Monday.
Today, our hot seat man is DrewBoa, and normally on Manly
Monday we like to celebratemasculinity and we talk a little
bit at the beginning of ManlyMonday about the essence of
masculinity.
(01:53):
What is it?
What is it, particularly in oursociety where we have so much
confusion around what is truefeminine, what is true masculine
right, and so what we like tosay here on Manly Monday is the
essence of masculinity is topush through difficulty and to
succeed.
(02:14):
You know, it is said that thewarrior carries fear on the end
of his spear, and that is whatmakes him so powerful.
Like we're aware of thedifficulty, we're aware of our
weakness and still we moveforward, right.
And there's another phrase thatwas coined, I think, by Leanne
Payne, who was a wonderfulteacher about inner Christian
(02:37):
healing, and she said she talksabout masculine and feminine
very beautifully and she says nohardened feminist can look at
the Chicago skyline and saywoman did that.
And then she'll say womandidn't do that, man did that.
And in a really beautiful wayshe celebrates how the essence
(02:58):
of masculinity is to piercethrough difficulty and to create
, to build, to speak intosomebody's life, for example,
and create life.
In that we even see that in thesex act to create life, to
enter in and create life, tobuild, even to tear down to make
(03:21):
something new.
And so we usually spend a fewminutes celebrating the
masculine triumphs that we haveall experienced.
So this time we won't be doingthat, but we are going to
celebrate Drew Boa, and he hasagreed to come on to be in the
hot seat today for Manly Monday.
(03:43):
And what we do in Manly Mondayis we work getting unstuck.
What happens a lot in ourjourney, especially those of us
who are traumatized.
We get in this place ofstuckness because there's parts
of ourselves inside that arewarring right, and so this work
that we do is called pillow workor chair work.
(04:04):
We actually work on separatingthose parts of ourselves out and
becoming more unstuck.
In the end, the goal is a lotmore clarity so we can move
forward in our masculine journeybe decisive and kind of get a
better hit on what our path isforward.
So, drew, how are you feelingright now?
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Vulnerable, overwhelmed, grateful and small.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Thank you.
You're vulnerable, overwhelmed,grateful and small is all
welcome.
It's all welcome.
Can I say a prayer, please?
Jesus, thank you, thank you forbeing here, and it really hits
me that you yourself were onetime small.
(05:02):
Hits me that you yourself wereone time small.
You also know what it's like tobe grateful and to be
vulnerable and to be overwhelmed, and you came to this world as
a man and experienced ourcondition in your own body,
which is just incredible, and Ithank you for that.
(05:25):
And I thank you for Drew, and Iask that you would come
powerfully into his story todayto bring healing, to bring
clarity and to help move himforward in a new and masculine
way by the end of this hour.
Thank you so much for yourpresence here.
(05:45):
Amen, amen.
So share with us, drew.
Talk to us a little bit.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Underneath my attachment to pornography, there
was an even deeper attachmentand addiction to screens.
It started with my Game Boy anda Windows 98 computer and a
(06:25):
Windows 98 computer.
It progressed to TV and videogames and then finally, with my
current device, the smartphone.
While the smartphone has been ahuge blessing to me and it has
(06:47):
been a huge blessing, through me, to others, it has also slowly,
subtly, silently, sank itshooks into my heart and I have a
very unhealthy relationshipwith it.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
I'm hearing you, yes, and so tell us more about the
unhealth.
I have an unhealthyrelationship with it.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
My unhealthy relationship with my phone is
most evident at night, when mykids have been screaming and not
going to sleep, getting up outof bed again and again.
(07:43):
I never really know whenthey're finally done and when
they fight with each other andwhen they don't go along with
what I want.
It wears me down.
It wears me down and myreserves of patience and
(08:19):
kindness are almost gone.
In that state, toward the endof the night I feel an intense
need to numb, to kill the pain,to somehow cushion the intensity
(08:40):
of what I feel, of what I feel.
Sometimes I have aggressivethoughts, violent thoughts
toward my children, and numbingout on my phone protects them
from my own violence.
I don't like spending an houron my phone at night continuing
(09:08):
to work or continuing toaccomplish tasks, and I see how
it helps me survive and it keepsmy kids safe.
Yeah, it really sabotages myrelationship with my wife,
because that's some of the onlytime we have together yeah, oh,
(09:30):
my goodness drew.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
It's like, have you been a fly on the wall at my
house?
I just wanted to say me too, metoo, like by the end of our day
we are exhausted, both my wifeand I.
And the getting up out of bedover and over and the fighting,
I get it.
I'm in the trenches with you.
(09:53):
You're not alone.
Two parts of yourself or yourrelationship with your phone and
let's tweak this a little bitto kind of get some more clarity
.
There's the part where yourphone serves you not only
through your work but to connectwith safe others right, and it
(10:19):
also serves you to neuroregulatewhen you're like over the top,
overwhelmed, right am I tracking?
Yes, yeah, yeah, and thenthere's the part of your phone
use that does not serve you andmaybe you could speak to that a
little bit more the part thatdoes not serve me blurs the line
(10:45):
between being at work and beingat home.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah, the phone makes it possible for me to work
anytime anywhere, so it reallyfeeds a work addiction, a
workaholism.
It also crowds out any spacefor connection with my wife.
It's competing for my heart anda lot of times it's winning.
(11:13):
I like having my phone as atool and it's a very helpful
tool and it's a very poor person, you know, but I'm like
treating it as if it's acherished member of my family.
I just want it to be a tool.
(11:35):
I don't want it to be like mysecret lover.
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yes, yes, yeah, oh my goodness.
Yes, yes, yeah.
And my guess is there are a tonof men on this call that can
(12:03):
that you're going to for solace,or using it to numb out, or
like treating it as a person,like going to it for solace, for
example, instead of your fleshand blood.
Lovely wife, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Yeah, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yes, and so there's two parts of yourself here, or
two aspects regarding this.
The part that, like, I must usethis, I must use the phone in
order to self-regulate, and Ialso must do that.
One last thing on HM and checkin with that.
(12:39):
One last person before I go tobed, right, last person before I
go to bed, right.
So not only is it aself-regulator but also a work,
you know, an encroachment ofwork into family life sort of a
thing, right?
Speaker 1 (12:51):
In my mind, this is ministry, this is the work of
Jesus.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yes, right, absolutely.
And so, of course, I need to bedoing this right now, right.
And then just speak the othervoice briefly.
We want to get really clear onthe two, and your chair has
rollers on it, right?
Yes, because we're going to beshifting into two different
positions.
(13:16):
Right, because both of theseparts are at war within us and
neither one of them has beenallowed to fully be seen,
witnessed, cared for.
Right, and to say everything tounburden, to use an IFS term
(13:37):
Right.
So this is the goal of what wewant to work on today, and then,
at the end, we'll come to thecenter, which is kind of a place
of healthy self where you'reholding both of these but not
attaching to an outcome oneither side.
Right.
So speak briefly.
(13:57):
We've really heard reallyclearly from this side of the
attachment to the phone.
Speak briefly so we get clarity.
The side side that says I can'tbe doing this I love my wife
and I'm not acting like it.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, especially at night, after the kids go to bed
or while the kids are continuingto come out of bed.
Yes, there is also an aspect ofhypocrisy here, where I'm
helping men outgrow pornography,and a lot of times that means
(14:44):
changing your relationship withdigital devices.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Yeah, setting boundaries on where and when and
why I'm using these devices inorder to keep myself safe and
keep my family from having toexperience the negative
consequences of addictivebehavior.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
And so I have been in denial about this for years,
because it's not sexualized,right, right.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
And so I need to come out of denial and deal with
this because it's hurting me.
It hasn't been hurting my kidsas much, thankfully.
I've been doing some work onbeing more present with them,
but after the kids aresupposedly asleep, that's when I
(15:43):
still need to detach from thephone so I can attach to the
person I love the most.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, yeah, I'm hearing you really clearly.
Thank you, and thank you foryour courage and extraordinary
vulnerability coming with thisissue.
Thanks, john.
So which of these voices needsto speak first, and what part of
your office would you like thatto be in?
(16:09):
And it can be a slight shift.
It can be two inches to theright or the left, but it does
need to be a bodily movementright.
And if you have another chair,some men actually have another
chair.
They sit in right, and I lovethat you're doing this.
You're stretching and I'm goingto do it too, and all of you
other men are welcome to do that, because our nervous systems
(16:31):
hate transitions.
This is why your children aregetting up at night, by the way,
and running, running around.
Our children do it too.
I hate transitions.
It's very hard, and so eventhis like transitioning into
like wow, am I actually allowedto fully embody one of these
(16:52):
aspects of myself?
And the answer is yes, but astretch and a breath is great to
kind of get our nervous systemready for that.
So which side in yourenvironment would you, if you,
want, to hold your hands out in?
front of you for example, whichside would you say this dynamic
(17:12):
of I must have this phone tosurvive and I must be using it
in the ways I am right now tosurvive?
Where would that live it?
Speaker 1 (17:22):
would live over here on this side.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
On your right, okay.
And then the side that says Iabsolutely cannot keep doing
this.
It's a detriment to my marriageand probably myself, because
I'm not living real life in someways by escaping to my phone or
letting work encroach into it.
Right, that lives where, On theother side there, okay.
(17:47):
So just hold your hands infront of the screen out in front
of you, right and left, and Ijust want you to close your eyes
for a moment and breathe andfeel the weight of both of these
.
Just notice, notice the weight,and which one feels more like
(18:15):
it needs a voice right now theleft side, the left side.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Okay, great, so shift your chair over there.
And if you need to, if you'rereally there, great.
But if you need to, you can dosome more nervous system work to
kind of get there Right.
And, by the way, when we dothis work, it's very common to
go into a blended state wherethat other side is talking as
well and this we'll talk aboutthat if it comes up.
(18:46):
But this is your opportunity tofully embody this part of
yourself, this aspect ofyourself, and to speak
everything out that you need toabout why this is absolutely
necessary and true.
Okay, and we will also get intopart of your judgments toward
(19:08):
the self over on the right.
So if you need to just take amoment to really kind of get
there, Do you want me to speakfrom my gut?
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Just whatever flows out.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Everything is welcome .
This is, this is youropportunity to allow yourself,
possibly in a way you never havebefore, to express everything
from this part of yourself youidiot, you hypocrite.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
You talk about regulating your nervous system
without porn, but look, you'redoing it with the same device
that all your clients use towatch porn.
You are no better, you are nodifferent, but you pretend to
have so much freedom.
Look at what you do every night.
(20:03):
You look identical to the guysyou're trying to help, just
totally zoned out on the phone,and you haven't healed your
inner child, who's still totallyattached to the screen.
You haven't healed your innerchild, who's still totally
(20:24):
attached to the screen.
You're so easily overwhelmed.
Your capacity to be present isso low.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
What kind of a person does this sort of a thing?
Speaker 1 (20:38):
A liar, someone who's weak?
Speaker 2 (20:44):
A liar, someone who's weak?
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Bad husband, bad father.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, yeah.
So these two parts are very atwar within yourself.
These are judgments that youhave toward the self over on the
right side of your screen,right, and what is this costing
you and your wife?
Speaker 1 (21:19):
It's costing us intimacy emotionally, physically
, sexually, spiritually Makes itso that when I do spend time
with her in the evening, it's somuch harder to connect because
I feel like I'm constantlytrying not to do what I usually
(21:39):
do.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah, and from your wife's perspective, if she were
here, what would she say this iscosting her?
What would she say this iscosting her?
Me, yeah, she's like, where areyou drew?
I don't have you.
I don't have you.
In these precious few momentsbefore we both fall into bed,
exhausted I don't have you andspeak from this place a little
(22:02):
bit about how work, theencroachment of work, is
affecting this, you and yourmarriage.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
I'm doing what my dad did.
I say I come home at areasonable hour and I work a
reasonable number of hours perweek, but then I've got six to
10 shadow hours of work.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Right, always on the clock.
Just one more thing to do.
Is there anything else?
This place, from this place andthis chair, you get to allow
yourself to fully embody thisplace.
(22:48):
Really feel it to say anythingthat needs to be said our time
is short.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
This pattern is eating up parts of my life that
I can't get back yeah, our timeis short, no kidding.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Life just like that it's gone.
Children just like that they'regrown.
And this part is eating, eatingeating and eating up consuming
me.
How do you feel with thisdynamic?
Speaker 1 (23:31):
As soon as I just said that, I felt a moment of
clarity.
Tell me more.
It was easier to see what isreally happening.
When I consider the brevity oflife yeah, I'm going to die.
(23:52):
Yeah, is really happening whenI consider the the brevity of
life yeah, I'm gonna die.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
and yeah, yeah, that gave me some sobriety, like in
the sense of sobering me up likeso healthy self, a moment of
healthy self, clarity, right,which we're going to get to by
the end of this call, becausethe healthy self holds this
tension you're feeling right nowand the desire that I must have
(24:15):
my phone in these other waysright, yeah, because it's
serving me well right.
So healthy self showed up rightthere.
That's beautiful, that's good.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
When I first started out, it was not healthy self.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
No, and healthy self is in the center, like kind of
where your empty bookshelves areright there in the middle.
So we're going to get thereright and we're all a blend of
these things, but we rarely getthe opportunity to separate
these aspects of ourself outbecause life is coming at us so
hard, right?
Do you want to say anythingabout your sense of grief in
(24:56):
this place?
Speaker 1 (25:00):
I grieve that years of my life as a kid and as a
teenager were consumed by thescreen.
When I see my kids now, I can'timagine them wasting all the
(25:22):
time that I did and I feelgrieved that it was my best
option.
I feel grieved that it was mybest option.
Yeah, I feel grieved that Ichose the best thing I could
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Right, I'm sitting with you in that grief, my
friend.
It has cost you a lot and itcontinues to cost you a lot.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
I guess what I'm saying is I grieve the reasons
why this developed.
Yeah Right.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Right used to cost you a lot.
I guess what I'm saying is Igrieve the reasons why this
developed yeah, right, right andhealthy self actually holds
that with great tenderness right, which we'll get to, and you've
done a lot of work on this.
Like there were valid reasonswhy you, why you, found solace
in screen time, very validreasons, and so we, in some ways
(26:14):
, we can thank that part of yourlife right for protecting you
and for giving you connection,even if it was pseudo connection
yes, right yeah, anything leftunsaid yeah, there was something
right toward the beginning andand it is eluding me I think it
(26:36):
may be a part that felt sovulnerable that it's not ready
to come out again and we respectthat.
It may decide to later on inthis call or sometime in the
future.
Yeah, Good work.
So we're about ready to stepinto fully, fully embody the
(27:01):
part of yourself that absolutelymust use the screen in the ways
you've described and continueyour phone use, and why you must
do that?
Because it's serving you in aparticular way, right?
So what I usually invite men todo is to kind of allow yourself
to shake off the energy of thecurrent chair you're in in
(27:22):
whatever way you like brushing,shaking, moving.
You could even stand up if youneed to, and when you're ready
you can move over to the rightside of your screen.
So close your eyes for a momentand just take a couple of deep
(27:48):
breaths in this place.
So this is the place where youget to fully and perhaps say
things you've never felt youcould say.
(28:09):
Fully embody this aspect ofyourself that absolutely must
continue using your phone duringfamily time to regulate after
the children are settling intobed, that it must be used in
lieu of connecting with yourwife and it must be used to
(28:30):
continue your work long into thenight with HM, right?
So there's nothing you need tohold back from this place.
Fully embody this aspect ofyourself and speak from this
place.
Share with us.
We're here with you.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
This is Little Drew speaking.
I have no friends.
The screen is my friend, thevideo games are my friends.
When I play Pokemon on my GameBoy, I'm somebody, I have a
(29:24):
mission, I'm powerful.
Yes, I have a purpose.
Right, I'm accomplishing things, mm-hmm.
And when I respond to people onhusband material, I have that
(29:46):
same feeling of holding my GameBoy and being powerful and
purposeful and accomplishingthings and being on a mission
and being someone who I like.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yes, yes.
Which are all good things.
I want to speak into thatgoodness right.
All those are good things.
They're masculine endeavors.
Manly Monday talks aboutmasculine endeavors.
We all need a purpose, we allneed to feel our power, we all
need to have a mission, right?
Speaker 1 (30:21):
And there's another side of it.
This is little Drew speaking.
I can't get angry, can't gettoo angry, can't get too sad.
I just have to get through thisyeah, I can't get angry or sad.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
I just have to get through this, and this is the
only way no one's there for meright?
No one is there for me, right?
Speaker 1 (30:51):
No one is there for me, and now, when it's late at
night, the people who I wouldcall are asleep.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Yeah, so no one's available.
Just like when you were young.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
No one's available except Gmail, yep and text
messaging.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Yep and WhatsApp voice shares they're always
available.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
That's really nice.
It is really nice.
And that voice shares they'realways available.
That's really nice.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
It is really nice and that is good.
It's a way to authenticallyconnect with others using your
device.
So how does this dynamic serveyou when you're dysregulated?
Like, why do you deserve to beon your phone when your children
(31:51):
have been screaming all evening?
Speaker 1 (31:54):
because it takes the edge off of my feelings less
jagged yeah, it's like a littleshot of vodka.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
This is water, by the way really is, it's my version
of that?
Yep, absolutely.
And why do you need that?
This is where you get to fullyspeak from this part of yourself
, fully embody it, like it withthe intensity of why this is
absolutely necessary.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
I need that because I don't want to be angry.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
It's uncomfortable to feel angry.
I don don't want to be angry.
It's uncomfortable to feelangry.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
I don't even want to be sad.
I want to be happy when Ifinally, at the end of the day,
yeah, yeah.
But the truth is I don't feelthose happy feelings.
I feel sadness at the lost timeand maybe some relief at the
(32:55):
end of the day.
Truth is, all I haveemotionally is scraps.
Yeah, it's easier to distractmyself and if I don't try to
connect with Rebecca then Ican't fail.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Right, right.
There's a lot of safety inbeing on our devices, right, we
have control and we're notrisking real relationship, so
therefore, we can't fail.
How does it feel to be in thischair and to speak honestly
(33:38):
about why this aspect is sonecessary?
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Feels vulnerable.
Yeah, yeah, it makes sense, Ifeel anger.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Yes, talk more about that.
Speak from that angry place.
You're allowed to be angry Ifeel angry that this is so
difficult every night yeah, but,and again, this is your full,
full on opportunity to fullyembody this place.
(34:12):
So what do you judge about yourwife telling you you shouldn't
be on your phone from this seatself-drew boa, but this is like
from this place, when she had,when she wants you to actually
(34:34):
relate, but you absolutely mustbe on your phone to get these
things done for hm, or to justrelax, for goodness sake, and
she's asking you to be inrelationship with her.
How do you judge her?
Speaker 1 (34:48):
it feels so wrong to say this.
I know it's not true.
The thought is that she doesn'tunderstand.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
She doesn't understand people who who are
trying to get me to get off mydevice or being unreasonable,
and they don't understand howdoes it feel to unburden that?
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Doesn't feel good.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
I hear you.
I hear you, and generallyspeaking, with this chair work
as we allow ourselves to fullyembody wherever we're at right,
it's easy to be blended here,but as we allow ourselves to
fully embody, sometimes there'ssomething from one of these
sides that really needs to besaid.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Okay, it's not the big, angry, violent part of me
that's saying she doesn'tunderstand.
It's a little boy curled upinto a ball Saying she doesn't
understand.
Really, no one understands.
My parents didn't understand.
Really, no one understands.
My parents didn't understand.
(35:53):
I really wanted my parents tojoin me in the video games or
things I was doing on a screen.
They never showed any interest.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
It's shared reality.
Yeah, yeah, a shared joy.
I's shared reality.
Yeah, a shared joy.
I'm so sorry, thanks.
What part of you wants to say,if any, and again, you can
discard this if it's notcongruent with how you're
feeling, congruent with howyou're feeling, but what part of
(36:31):
you wants to say how much youdeserve this in light of how
dysregulating your children can?
Speaker 1 (36:35):
be.
I don't want to frighten themand my intense reactions can be
frightening, so anything thatdulls my emotional state is
helpful.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Right and more into this energy.
Why, when you're dysregulated,it's like I have absolutely got
to have a break here.
Like they have pushed me to mylast wire Right.
Like I deserve this because Ihave to have a break from it.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
I'm having another flash of healthy self in this
moment okay, we're about readyto step there.
Go ahead last night, instead ofgoing to my phone and working,
I got out a children's Biblecalled the Book of Belonging.
(37:33):
It's really beautiful and Iallowed myself to read it and it
was so nurturing.
Yesterday was Mother's Day andat church I had a moment where I
(38:04):
told God I have not allowed youto mother me, and this book of
belonging mothered me last night.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Oh, Drew, as soon as this call is over, I'm getting
on Amazon and I'm going to orderthe book of belonging for me
and my children.
Oh, that sounds good.
Yeah, it seems good.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
The main message of this children's Bible is you
belong, you are beloved and youare delightful.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
So good, all messages we needed so strongly as boys
filling up as I say that yeah,are you ready to step into the
healthy self?
like you, typically, when thesetwo parts unburden a bit, then
suddenly it's like, oh, I'mready, I'm there.
(39:04):
Yeah, so move.
Let's do a couple breaths tokind of shed yourself of this
absolute must for screen time.
I was gonna ask you one morething in this chair and I think
I will like why is it absolutelynecessary for you to do the 10
(39:25):
plus?
Did you say five hours, fiveextra hours of what did you call
them Shadow hours?
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Shadow hours of work.
And now, hey I, I justremembered what that thought was
.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
You want to move over to the left.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Okay, I finally got the thought.
Yes, we got the thought.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
Yes, okay, so you're.
You're in what energy now?
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Yes, I got the thought yes, okay, so you're in
what energy now?
Yes, this thought was sovulnerable and scary to share
that I blocked it out.
Yeah, I first came to termswith this screen addiction two
months ago and at that time myaverage screen time per day was
(40:16):
about six and a half hours, juston my phone.
That's not including thecomputer.
My average screen time per dayright now is four and a half
hours.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
And that's just on my phone.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
So it's decreased.
Yes, congratulations.
Tell us more about thevulnerability piece over there
that felt so hard to say that.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
It puts a number on it.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Yeah, it makes it real.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
It makes you realize how I'm not just making this up.
And everybody has an addictionto their phone.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
No, this is real yeah yeah, absolutely, and it's
vulnerable to be real, thank you.
So we're going to move intohealthy self, but I want to give
you the opportunity to sayanything else over on the far
other side, to talk more fromthis side.
Yes, yes, and, by the way, ifwe were doing this in person, we
(41:28):
would linger here for a coupleof hours if we needed to, and
really go back and forth tofully unburden each side.
That's what's lovely.
We're limited in on thisparticular venue but, yes, keep
speaking.
So, this side again, for thoseof you who are listening by
audio, could you state this sideagain?
Speaker 1 (41:48):
This is this side, drew, where this is the side
that cradles my phone and callsit my precious, like Gollum.
Yes, yes yes, Okay.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
what else needs to be said from this place?
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Little Drew likes the book of belonging better than
the book.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Yay, that sounds like healthy self.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
Actually Reading an adult book feels too much like
work.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Yeah, yeah, I mean talk about all the recovery
books you've read, right, yeah?
Reading a kid's book withoutreal kids in my lap feels
nurturing so good, so I don'tfeel like this is the part of
yourself that absolutely musthave the phone this is a little
(42:45):
drew.
Yeah, this is part of yourhealthy self that can hold the
tension of not having the phonein this moment.
Right, Because you foundsomething better.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
When I was a kid, before the screens really took
over my life, I was a voraciousreader.
Books are always available.
Books can take me into anotherworld yeah, books can help me
escape, yeah, and they regulateme in a way that feels good and
I don't have the ickinessattached to it.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And books like are I don don'tknow, you hold your phone
physically, but there'ssomething about a book, an
actual book, where you turnpages and you can smell it and
you can feel it and there'sactual pictures there that are.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
It is so regulating little drew is saying books are
my friends yeah.
Yeah, books are alwaysavailable.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
So good, so good.
So do you want to move intoyour healthy self in the center
and again take a couple ofbreaths and really embody this?
Allow your body to hold ahealthy posture.
(44:12):
Hold on, I need to do theshake-off thing.
Okay, sure, go ahead, do whatyou need to Say what you need to
Really clean that off.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
I am not Little Drew.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Little Drew is a part of me, yeah, and you're not big
drew, who feels like you haveto hold the world together with
hm and therefore work five extrahours.
Shadow hours.
Oh, you're speaking my language.
I do shadow hours myselfthrough y.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
Yikes.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Yeah, yeah, right, good, thank you for taking that
time to do that for yourself.
So allow yourself to take somedeep breaths from this healthy
place, healthy self place, andthis is the place where the
Spirit of God lives in you, inyou, and this is the place where
(45:15):
you hold both of these tensionsand you do not attach to one
strongly as an outcome or theother, but you're able to see
them both from a king's throne,if you will, right, yeah, and so
what do you want to speak toboth of these parts of yourself,
from this healthy part?
Speaker 1 (45:29):
I love both of these parts of myself.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Yeah, tell me more about why.
Why do they both serve you?
Speaker 1 (45:40):
I love little Drew because he wants to make sure
that I am cared for.
I'm not just pouring myself outall the time.
Yes, he wants to make sure thatI actually just receive.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
I need that.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (46:06):
Yes, so good, so good .
And this other part of me overhere, the inner critic, the
concerned part of me, wants meto outgrow what I did as a kid.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Yes, yes, yes, right and wants for you true
connection.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Yeah, wow, he wants that too.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Yeah, and from your healthy self, you can hold both
of these.
And, by the way, the healthyself also is honoring your deep
desire to be of service to yourChristian brothers in their hour
of need, right, and thereforethe extra hours that you put in,
(46:58):
like your healthy self can holdthat that.
There's good intent behind that.
Yeah, and there's also goodintent, which you just spoke to,
behind your need to connect.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
I like how both sides want something better for me.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
Yes, yes, and I just want to say you deserve to find
some ways to regulate yourselfafter your children have been
screaming all evening from onedad to another.
You deserved that.
Thanks, john, and there's waysto find that that will serve
your marriage and will serve youwell, and I love that you found
(47:35):
that book.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
The Book of Belonging .
Speaker 2 (47:38):
The Book of Belonging .
Speaker 1 (47:39):
Thank you, Both sides realize that I've been settling
for something less than what Icould have.
Speaker 2 (47:51):
Right.
And to live in the healthy self, by the way, is to live in
tension.
Many of us from traumatizedbackgrounds are very black and
white in our thinking.
It's either or right.
But to live in the healthy selfis to actually live in tension.
Christ himself lived in greattension, like there were
(48:13):
expectations from the rulers,the synagogue and the Jewish
people that he was not meetingand he was threatened.
You know they were threateninghim.
There were expectations fromhis own family, from his
disciples, and he lived in thattension and he lived well in
that tension.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
And we can too.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Amen, so good.
How does it feel to be in thehealthy self and to witness
these parts of yourself?
Speaker 1 (48:42):
It feels good and right to live in the tension.
One of my college professorsalways told me to live in the
tension, because if you're notliving in the tension, you're
not living.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
That's so annoying and so good, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Yeah, I feel like I have space to hold both sides
and that feels really good.
Speaker 2 (49:06):
Yeah, and by the way, you look very manly in your
healthy self.
Thank, you.
I feel, that.
I see it.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
I feel the difference in my face and my posture.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Absolutely Good, powerful work, and you got a lot
of affirmations in the chatfrom men who also were
resonating deeply with your work, so I'll send those to you,
just so you have them in anemail.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
Thank you, John and guys.
Thank you so much for youraffirmations.
I haven't been looking at thembecause I've been focused on the
process, but I will read themall later.
Yes, Thank you for being herewith me.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
Thank you, Drew, for your vulnerability and for
paving the way for many of us tokeep doing this deep work.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
Thank you, John.
Your healthy self has made adifference for me.
Love you, Drew.
Love you too.
Thank you so much forwitnessing this part of my
healing process.
If you would like to join HMA,we open the doors twice a year,
once in January and once in July.
Right now, you can learn moreat joinhmacom and always
(50:23):
remember you are God's belovedson and you he is well pleased.
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