December 30, 2024 • 34 mins
75% of Christian men and 40% of Christian women watch porn on a regular basis, but only 21% wish they didn't. Nick Stumbo shares these stats and other major findings of Beyond The Porn Phenomenon, a new research report produced by Barna and Pure Desire Ministries.
Nick Stumbo is the Executive Director of Pure Desire Ministries and host of the Pure Desire Podcast. He's also the author of Setting Us Free: An Unexpected Journey Of Grace and Safe: Creating A Culture Of Grace In A Climate Of Shame. Learn more at puredesire.org
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thank you forlistening to this interview with
(00:21):
Nick Stumbo.
Nick is actually one of thespeakers at our upcoming free
online conference, the Porn-Freeman.
On January 10th and 11th, nickand I and three other awesome
speakers are going to be leadingyou live to experience deeper
healing and greater freedom fromporn in 2025.
(00:42):
So go to thepornfreemancom ifyou want to register and join
men from around the world onthis amazing journey.
In this interview with Nick, youare going to get a window into
the newest research on theprevalence of pornography,
especially among practicingChristians.
If you're wondering how manypeople actually think porn is a
(01:02):
problem, how many people arestruggling with it, how many
people are struggling with it insecret, man, some of these
statistics are reallyheartbreaking, some of them are
alarming, and there's also somehope and encouragement that
you're going to hear about,especially when it comes to Gen
Z.
We talk about what some of themost effective solutions are,
(01:22):
and at the end, you'll hear apreview of Nick's presentation
coming up at the Porn-Free man.
Enjoy the episode.
Today, we get to hear from NickStumbo, who is the executive
director of Pure DesireMinistries.
Pure Desire Ministries andBarna Research recently came out
with a new resource calledBeyond the Porn Phenomenon
(01:48):
Beyond the Porn PhenomenonEquipping the Church for a New
Conversation.
Nick, thanks for joining us andI'm really curious to hear why
are you passionate about thisresearch project?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Well, hello, hello, yeah.
Thanks, Drew, for having me onand a chance to talk about this.
You know, like you and HusbandMaterial, we do a lot of work in
this area with sexual addictionand pornography use and
recovery, and we were really, ayear and a half ago, looking
around at you know what's thenew research say?
Because as we would hear peoplespeak or even as we were using
(02:15):
data, I knew like, oh, that'sfrom the 2012 covenant eyes stat
pack, or I read that articlethat's from 2013, or that's from
the 2016 report, the pornphenomenon that Barna did with
Josh McDowell Ministries andCovenant Eyes.
So that you know, research ages, it's only good for so long.
(02:36):
And since 2016, we've all livedthrough the pandemic and watched
kind of an upheaval in oursociety as it comes to gender
identity and fluidity and youknow just political divisiveness
and things happening within thechurch, and I think we felt
like the topic of pornographyhas kind of become a byline for
churches, a little bit of a.
(02:56):
Well, we've been there.
We ran the Conquer series 10years ago, we did that one men's
weekend and now we've moved onto all of these other hot button
topics.
And yet our suspicion, as I'msure for you and many others was
that this issue is not gettingbetter.
We have not dealt with it veryfully, we've just kind of
touched the surface, and yet amajority of people are still
(03:19):
struggling.
And we feel like that beforeyou can be motivated to change
the reality of your church orcommunity or home, you have to
be willing to embrace and acceptwhat that reality is.
And so, in the lack of newresearch, I think it was easy
for people to just be found onpornography use in Christians
and churches and to try to bringback to the surface and put a
(03:48):
spotlight on hey, here's what'shappening in this issue, and not
just to create guilt or shameor make us all feel bad, like oh
yeah, everybody struggles, butto create some motivation to say
we have to do something, we cando something, there are options
available to us now that we'veseen this reality, that we're
going to embrace and run with itand that's been our hope all
(04:11):
along is that the data wouldlead to action, and so we just
felt like God had put that infront of us, and as we reached
out to Barna, they said no,nobody else is doing it.
But it is the question that weget asked more than any other is
when are you going to updatethe porn phenomenon?
And so we said, okay, god, wefeel like you're leading us to
do this and to get this researchout there, and it's been a
(04:34):
really intriguing and enjoyableand challenging process over the
last year plus to get this dataout there.
But, yeah, it's, I think,really illuminating and the
topic of our conversation today.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Thank, you so much for serving all of us in our
communities by making thisavailable, when you talk about
this reality that we are in.
What were some of the majorfindings of the study?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Well, of course, the leading question that many will
ask is well, how many people arestruggling?
And that's kind of the top offunnel, like what's the reality.
So Barna does a great job withqualitative research not
necessarily quantitative and weeven ask that like, well, hey,
if we pay more, can youinterview more people and can we
make this tens of thousands?
And they said, as they workwith researchers, they've really
(05:22):
found there is a point at whichyou are just getting more of
the same data that you'vealready collected.
And so they said we make surethat we get a more than
sufficient sample of the USpopulation, male and female,
young and old.
And once we've reached thatquota, so to speak, we know
we've got it because they go allacross the country, all the
different demographics.
(05:42):
And so when they looked at thatand we identified people who
were practicing Christians, andso in the survey they would have
revealed that their faith wasimportant to them and they
attended church on a regularbasis.
And among practicing Christians,we found that 54% of practicing
Christians would say thatthey're viewing pornography to
(06:03):
some extent, which, in myknowledge, is the first time
that any major survey has shownthat a majority of people in the
church would say yeah, this isan issue.
I'm having you break that down.
It's 75% of our men, but also afull 40% of women.
So two in five women alsomarked I'm viewing pornography
(06:25):
at least occasionally, and thatnumber has grown, I think, by
about 8% since the data that wasout in 2016.
And we're also able to break itdown by age groups and you find
the numbers grow among youngeradults, and so for millennial
women and Gen Z women, thatnumber climbs to 62% and 64%.
(06:45):
And Gen Z women that numberclimbs to 62% and 64%.
So nearly two thirds of ouryoung adult women would say I'm
struggling with pornography aswell.
So that was some pretty majordata.
And then, among that same groupof practicing Christians, the
question was asked does anybodyknow about your struggle?
And they were given the optionsof family, friend, pastor, an
adult I don't even know,accountability partner, and then
(07:07):
one of the options was no one,and 48% of practicing Christians
said no one knows, and Ithought that was really
eye-opening to say that nearlyhalf of all Christians that
would say this is an issue forme also say and nobody has any
idea, and I think thatunderscores man.
We have got to create safety inthis area, for people to find
(07:29):
help to normalize help withoutnormalizing the behavior.
One other piece of data that Ithought was also very compelling
people were asked howcomfortable of those who marked
I use pornography to some extent.
They were asked how comfortableare you with your pornography
use and only 21% of Christianssaid I wish I didn't use
(07:50):
pornography at all.
Half said I'm comfortable withhow much pornography I'm using,
and I think that underscores theways in which we have
unfortunately normalized thebehavior.
We've accepted it as somethingthat people do.
You know I've tried to changeand I can't really change anyway
, and it's is it that big of adeal?
After all, no one's being hurt.
You know these are all paidperformance.
(08:11):
You know the same reasoning thatwe may be here in culture, I
think, has seeped deeply intothe church and into faith
communities where now half ofall Christians who are
struggling with pornography sayI really have no problem with
the amount that I'm using.
And so for me, and hopefullyfor you and others that are
working in this space, it's areminder that maybe a majority
(08:32):
of those that we could helpdon't even think they need it.
And so what do we do to createin a healthy way, to create
conviction, to create a visionthat how much better life could
be, how much stronger your faithcould be, if we were willing to
tackle this problem and notjust accept that well, I'm just,
you know, I'm just a man, I'mjust going to struggle till I
die to say no change is possible.
(08:54):
And I think that was, like Isaid, eyeopening for us to
realize we need to keep castingthat vision so that people want
to live a life free ofpornography.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Amen.
Yeah, that level of comfortwith pornography rising feels
very alarming to me and probablyreflects some of the changes in
the last 10 years.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Well, it's so ubiquitous I mean a big word to
say it's everywhere.
We are all now one click awayfrom bad decisions and content
that we would regret and thataccess has.
But our growth compared to thesmartphone, ai, um, the devices
that now connect to the internet, including our refrigerators
(09:53):
and our washing machines and,you know, our cars so the
availability of that content isjust exponentially growing, and
the response we're we're, we'relagging behind, and so I think
that's some of what we're seeingis just this broad acceptance
of it's everywhere.
If you can't beat them, jointhem, and let's just do our best
to kind of, you know, to try tokeep this under control.
(10:13):
But I mean, as you and I know,pornography use, compulsive
sexual behavior, is notsomething we control or maintain
.
It is always growing, itincreases in nature and
eventually it controls us, andso I do hope there are pieces of
that that become a little bitof an alarm bell ringing to say
we've got to wake up to someissues here, and so how could we
(10:36):
be a part of seeing that happen, rather than just burying our
heads in the sand and hoping itgets better?
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah.
And in your preface to theresearch you said when asked who
is helping you with yourstruggle with pornography, a
staggering 82% of Christians sayno one.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Well, it kind of goes along with the no one knows.
And it would make sense that ifyou add to that, even for those
that would say someone knows,they still feel like this is
mine to deal with alone.
And if we're honest, that's themessage most of us have
received from our world maybethe church, maybe other sincere
adults that it's kind of likethis is a moral issue.
(11:18):
You need to go, fix it.
Stop doing that, don't do itanymore.
And then you know, make betterchoices.
And so so we we hear a powerfulsermon or read a great book or
listen to a podcast, like, okay,that was the last time, never
again I'm gonna stop.
And we feel like it's this, doit on my own kind of thing, and
that almost feels noble, likeit's up to me and it's a
(11:40):
personal topic, it's private,it's it can be awkward and messy
, and so some ways that evenmakes sense, like I'll just do
this myself.
And yet what we have foundrepeatedly is that is not a
formula for success.
I mean, that's the very formulathat got most of us stuck in
the first place, that we engagedin a behavior that was isolated
, that created patterns of shameand secrecy in our life, and
(12:03):
then, in that same isolation andsecrecy, we're trying to get
better.
Well, no wonder, then?
The data shows that we're notgetting better.
We're actually increasing inour struggle because we feel
like it's something I'm supposedto do by myself, and yet that
just simply doesn't workAbsolutely.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
I was very surprised that 66% of people in this study
believe that with enoughwillpower, a person can overcome
porn addiction on their ownthat is so not true, and we
don't apply that reasoning toother vices in our culture.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Right, like if someone came to you and it had a
20-year battle with gambling ora 15-year challenge with binge
eating or had been on drugs and,as I'm sure you've talked about
on your podcast and we talkabout a lot there are very real
physical chemicals released inthe brain, things like dopamine.
That the way that pornographyuse accentuates dopamine in the
(13:02):
brain is on par with whatcocaine is doing.
And yet if a cocaine addictcame to you and said, yeah, I've
been struggling with cocaineoff and on for 20 years, but
I've got the will now to stop,I'm sure I'm going to just stop,
I don't think any of us wouldlook at that person and go, yeah
, you're right.
Now that you've made thedecision and you've got the will
to do it, you're going to be,you're fine, right, you're good
(13:23):
to go.
No, we'd all say I think you'regoing to need some support.
I think you'll probably need agroup or a program or you'll
need to walk with others thathave been down this road and
they know how to beat this.
Because this isn't justsomething that the pattern quits
because you decide it's time toquit.
It's got a hold in your lifeand that's the reason it's been
(13:43):
there for so long, and so Ithink if we could apply that
reasoning you're right we shouldbe surprised to say what is it
about this topic that we have soeven in the church?
We have so made it a privatething, a personal thing.
Do it on your own church.
We have so made it a privatething, a personal thing.
Do it on your own.
Just make a choice, don't lookat it.
And yet the data again justshows that is not working.
And so some of it is thatmindset that we have to switch
(14:06):
our paradigm away from believingit's a moral problem.
With enough willpower, I juststop to saying I'm going to need
to take some significant stepstowards healing and recovery and
I think, as we embrace that inour communities, in our
nonprofits, in our churches,we're going to be able to
provide people the kind ofsupport they need.
But it starts again.
That's, I think, hopefully, thepower of the data is that we
(14:29):
look at it and say you know what?
What we've been doing, is notworking.
We need some additional supportor strategies here.
And then that's where groupslike husband and material and
pure desire and others can comealongside and say yes, and
that's what we're here for.
We're here to help as you enterinto that journey.
You're not alone, you don'thave to do it by yourself, you
don't have to reinvent the wheeland figure out this whole thing
(14:51):
on your own.
We've walked this road and wewant to walk with you, and so I
hope that kind of that positive,hopeful message can come out of
the data as well.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yes, and the same is true for sexual betrayal trauma.
I really appreciate how you allbrought that into the study too
and are actively telling peoplelike hey, we have support not
just for the person directlystruggling, but also those who
are impacted.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
There's some pretty tellingstats and people can look at
them because I don't have themall top of mind, but you know,
we asked men who were usingpornography about the impact on
their relationship versus whosespouse was using pornography and
it's just like across the boardtheir opinions of the health of
their relationship, how healthythey think it is for their
(15:40):
relationship.
The user is like, oh, it's notthat big of a deal,
percentage-wise it's fine, it'snot impacting our relationship,
and the spouse is like it's abig deal, it's hurting us, trust
is being violated.
I don't know how I feel aboutmy own body now, the way the
chart shows it.
It's pretty striking to see.
Oh, this is a very differentexperience between the user,
(16:02):
who's probably stuck in someminimizing, rationalizing,
denying, versus the spouse,who's feeling the reality of why
is our marriage not enough?
Why am I not enough?
How come they don't trust me?
How do I trust them whenthey're doing these things
behind my back?
And again, if we can highlightthat to say, if we look around
in our society or church andfeel like marriages aren't
(16:23):
thriving, that too many peopleare getting divorced, I think we
need to address pornography asone of those root causes and see
that the impact it's having ona relationship is very different
between the person strugglingand the person being impacted by
it.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Yeah, that is so important.
I noticed a huge differencebetween how men view porn and
how women view porn.
For men it was way morepositive and for women it was
way more negative.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Within the relationship.
They were asked, you know, ifyour spouse was using
pornography?
Do you view that as a positiveor a negative thing?
And a majority of men actuallysaid their spouse using
pornography was a positive thing.
And I think in my opinion nowthis wasn't asked in the data,
but I think when I look at it, Isay very often when a man has
(17:11):
someone, a wife usingpornography, it's as a way to
create maybe more intrigue inthe bedroom, to spice up their
sex life.
They see it as a way to helpthings along and maybe in the
short run it has created thatbecause pornography has a very
artificial boost, a way that itboosts our hormones and
chemicals and maybe like, hey,man, that was great.
(17:33):
Whereas a wife who has a husbandusing pornography 61% said that
was a negative thing.
And I think they're recognizingthat it's creating unrealistic
expectations, it's causing themnot to bond with one another but
to bond with the screen.
And I think again, much like myearlier answer, when you see
that discrepancy of the way it'sviewed between that discrepancy
(17:58):
of the way it's viewed betweenthat, I mean, if there was any
area in a marriage that youfound out, most men thought it
was good and most women thoughtit was bad.
I think as leaders, as pastors,as friends, we'd say, hey,
there's caution here, becausethere's a real divide, there's a
disconnect between what youthink is happening, what your
spouse thinks is happening andanywhere in a relationship
that's occurring.
That there's a divide, that onesees a negative and the other
(18:22):
sees a positive.
That's going to create friction, tension and potentially a real
division in a marriage.
And so some of those data tellsa striking story that hopefully
we can pay attention to and sayboy, this is impacting
marriages and it's so importantbecause one of the primary lies
is no one is being hurt.
And I think the data paints apicture to say it is impacting
and damaging the marriagerelationship at a pretty
(18:44):
fundamental level.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah, what aspects of the research were most
surprising for you?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
The data that I already mentioned about, that
only 21% wish they didn't usepornography at all.
I felt like that was a littlebit of a lifting the blinders
moment because I think I make anassumption maybe you do, maybe
others do that if we're aChristian who is a person of
convictions, we want to followthe Lord, we're seeking to live
what the Bible says.
That by and large, 95% of uswould say, yeah, I want to live
(19:14):
a life free of lust and adulteryand pornography in my life and
yet to have that be 21% was verytelling of okay.
I think maybe we're missingsomething here.
Sadly, beyond that, I don'tknow that too much of it was
surprising, except maybe interms of almost across the board
(19:34):
, no matter what question weasked.
If you compared it to 2016,it's gotten about eight to 10%
worse in the last seven years.
We're just headed the wrongdirection and I think many of us
have felt that.
But what is maybe a grain ofhopefulness is some of the
answers that we found from Gen Z, because Gen Z men and women
had a stronger opinion thatpornography was bad for society
(19:57):
than millennials did.
They had a stronger opinionthat pornography was bad for
relationships than millennialsdid.
They were more likely to askfor help.
They were more likely to wanttheir church to talk about it
little bit of a pendulum swingwhere our youngest adults, you
(20:18):
know, the kids that grew up withsmartphones and screens from
the very beginning and are nowadults are able to look at this
and say this has not been goodfor our generation.
And we've seen people that gothat route and what it's done to
them or their view of people orrelationships or sex, and it's
not healthy and we're ready todo something about it.
So that's a little bit of hope.
They're only a little bit aheadof millennials, you know, and
(20:38):
we wish they were way ahead, butit's actually the first
generation that we're startingto see some of the numbers go in
a different direction.
And that might speak to, Ithink, a lot of churches and
leaders because, if we're honest, we're talking about adults
under the age of 25, that tendsto be a demographic that doesn't
get a very loud voice in mostchurches or faith communities
(21:00):
and I think to encourage thatgeneration and say we need to
hear your voice Most of us thatare.
You know, I'm Gen X, so I becamea teenager and a young adult
when the internet was kind ofexploding and some of the
numbers of pornography use areworse among Gen X than they are
even millennials, because Ithink we encountered the
internet at a time we had noidea what to do with it and it
(21:23):
may be because of that become alittle.
You know, we try to ignore thesubject.
Where Gen Z it's open, it'stalked about, it's like they see
it, it's their experience andthey're the voices I think we
need to listen to that say we'vegot to do better and we need
our churches to do better.
We need them to be places wecan talk about this and find
help and not feel like we haveto go somewhere else to get help
(21:44):
in this critical area of ourlife.
So if we can listen to Gen Z inthis area, I think we'll be
doing ourself a tremendous favor.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
And I love that.
It's so encouraging.
And, by the way, if you alldon't know, nick has written a
book called Safe about creatingthose safe spaces, which you
might want to check out in thedescription for this.
That would be awesome aboutthis topic and also hear what
(22:13):
they have to say In terms ofsolutions.
What are your thoughts aboutthe data and, specifically, the
most effective solutions forovercoming and outgrowing porn?
Speaker 2 (22:30):
And to me it's where I look at some of those stats
we've talked about that are verymaybe alarming or discouraging
that 82% say no one is helpingme.
48% of Christians say no oneeven knows.
And I look at the silver liningthere on the flip side to say
what if that 82% number thatsays no one is helping me said
someone is helping me, ishelping me?
(22:56):
What if the 48% said there arepeople who know, because I've
had a safe place and safe peoplewho have said we want to help
you.
You can own your negativesexual history or story and
you're not going to be rejectedhere, you're going to be loved
in a safe, confidentialenvironment where you can tell
your whole story among peersthat are doing the same thing.
I just think we can see thoseand go man.
If openness and safety andcommunity is lacking, well, what
(23:17):
if we provided that?
And that's so much of what wemajor in in Pure Desire and what
we're hoping is kind of thatmotivator to say we need to get
people out of doing this ontheir own.
The 66% that think it's just amatter of willpower or that the
number one answer.
You know sometimes in surveysan answer is descriptive, not
prescriptive.
So people were asked like whodo you feel comfortable going to
(23:39):
with your problem?
Well, the number one answer wasa counselor.
But even the number one answerwas less than 50% of people said
they'd feel comfortable tellinga counselor.
So by and large, we don't feelcomfortable in this issue or
safe or appropriate to go toanyone.
And I look at that and say, man, that is such an opportunity
(24:00):
for adults that have, you know,raising kids, for small groups,
for pastors and leaders inchurches, to say how do we
create environments and justkeep saying that message of you
don't have to do this alone, youdon't have to hide this and
we're not just going to send youaway to a professional whose
job it is to help you and andwho you pay to hear your, you
(24:22):
know about your sins and yourproblems.
We actually want that to happenamong the people that know you
and care about you and love you.
And we have seen you know it'smy story and I know a lot of
yours as well that when I wasable to tell my story, my whole
story, I just I don't mean justsaying, yeah, I struggle with
pornography once in a while, Imean telling my whole story of
what had happened in my past,what were the wounds that
(24:44):
created lies in my life thatmade me even seek out for sexual
things as a teenager, how thatbecame a part of my pattern,
when I could tell that wholestory with other men who were on
the same journey and find thatthey didn't run away from me.
They didn't say what the heckwas wrong with you, what were
you thinking, but instead lookedat me with compassion and
understanding and said, yeah, metoo, or I've been there, I know
(25:07):
what that feels like and youget that sense of acceptance and
love in those deepest places.
That's what changes you and andwe couldn't really ask about
you know, like how, how dopeople change?
Because the survey was reallyto just determine the reality of
the struggle and you can't in asurvey necessarily get at some
(25:30):
of those pieces.
But I think it tells the storythat isolation is the problem,
community is the solution,gathering people together in
those spaces where this isnormalized again, where we
normalize the conversationwithout normalizing the behavior
.
I think the data does tell thatstory of community and that need
to create those kinds of placeswhere people say you know what,
(25:51):
back to that list of who.
Do you feel comfortable talkingto?
Someone's pastor or spiritualleader was number nine.
I mean, there were all theseother options, like your doctor,
an adult, you don't.
People would rather go to anadult they don't even know than
to their own pastor.
And I look at that and say,what an opportunity.
What if pastors became thenumber one place that people are
(26:13):
like oh, are you struggling?
You should go talk to ourpastor.
They are so helpful with thistopic, they know what to do.
They'll help connect you to agroup of people.
Like what a difference thatcould make if that was people's
go to it.
And obviously we're not there,but I think we can definitely
move in that direction.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah, no-transcript.
(27:01):
And almost all of them said Iwould want a dad to be talking,
I would want a mom to beteaching about this, and then
how many respondents actuallyhad that experience of like a
healthy, safe, supportiveconversation with their parents?
It was like two and 3%.
Yeah, very low.
(27:22):
Oh, I mean, that is just so sad.
So many of us have beenabandoned in this area.
We've been neglected and wedidn't even know it because we
thought it was normal.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Well, our parents, to their credit, were many of them
.
They were doing the best theycould with what they had.
They weren't given any bettermodels.
They, you know, I've had thisconversation now with my dad as
an adult and we had one birdsand bees talk when I was about
11 years old, which wasincredibly awkward and
eyeopening and helpful, like Ithink my dad did a great job,
but that was the only time Iremember talking about it, and
(28:02):
when we've brought that up, youknow, in my story now, he said
you know, nick, my dad and Inever talked about it ever, and
so I felt like I was doingbetter, that at least we'd had a
good talk, and I answered somequestions and he said you just
didn't do that and I didn't knowwhat to say or what I should
say.
And you know, I of course didmy best to love you and be there
for you, but he just didn'thave a paradigm of even what did
(28:24):
it look like to support kidsgrowing up and figuring out
godly sexuality in our world.
And so it underscores that,whether you know, we're 18 or 88
or anywhere in between, most ofus were never trained, we were
never equipped, and I thinkthat's the opportunities that
people have with groups likeyours and ours to say just lean
into this material, lean intothe resources.
(28:45):
We have much of it's free,watch videos, listen to podcasts
.
Because as we get a little bitof equipping and we start to
understand the nature ofaddiction and how this impacts
the brain and how it's not justa choice in the moment, but it's
usually the outcome of apattern that's been operating in
our lives for, sometimesdecades.
Like when we start to see thosethings, then we understand the
(29:07):
kind of questions to ask someonehow to support our kids when
when they, you know, bring to ussomething that happened at a
friend's house or tell ussomething came up on their phone
when we've never talked aboutit, our natural reaction will be
to kind of freeze up and alittle shock, like I don't know
what to do with this Cause.
I haven't thought about it.
But if, if we've been equippedand educated and it's like man,
(29:29):
I'm ready for this.
I didn't just say to our kidsI'm here to help you.
I'm so glad you brought this tome because I want to be a part
of standing with you in thisjourney and you're not alone.
And I can relate, because I hadto figure some of this stuff
out when I was a kid but I hadno one to help me and I hope I
can be there to help you.
I mean, what a difference thatmakes.
So a little plug there to saytake advantage of resources
(29:53):
where you can be equipped andeducated in this, so that we can
change that narrative for thenext generation.
And it's part of it starts bychanging the narrative for
ourselves.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Amen.
So if you are looking forresources or groups for sex
addiction and betrayal traumaboth sides of this issue are an
amazing focus for Pure Desireyou can go to puredesireorg.
And if you want to join Nickand I live, come to the Porn
(30:27):
Free man Conference on January10th and 11th.
Let's go.
Nick is going to be giving us agame plan for lifelong
integrity.
Can you say more about it?
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Absolutely.
I think on your podcast Ishared my story in an older one.
You know, for 15 years I wasstruggling with a binge purge
issue with pornography.
I loved the Lord, I didn't wantit in my life.
Every time was the last timeand I had guardrails.
I had boundaries which Irepeatedly either broke or they
didn't help me, and I thinkthere are ways in which we can
(31:03):
construct a winning game planwhere guardrails are a
significant part of it.
But those guardrails need to bedeeply tied to our story and to
our personalized experience andpatterns.
Tied to our story and to ourpersonalized experience and
patterns.
And I think a lot of men andwomen you know maybe have some
general boundaries of I'm not onsocial media or I don't take my
cell phone in the bathroom.
There's just some good wisdomand those are helpful.
(31:25):
But if that's all we have,without a more robust plan of
boundaries that we need and whowe're committed to sharing those
with as well as the other halfof the equation is what we'll
talk about as well.
Because when you think about aboundary in our life, as
important as they are, what doesa boundary say to you?
A boundary says no, and yourbrain has been designed by God
(31:47):
to not like the word no.
Your brain has been designed tolike the word yes.
Your brain has been designed tolike the word yes.
And many of us have neverthought as hard as much about
what is the yes.
Because I need healthyboundaries absolutely and I need
to know what my yes is.
Where do I go for renewal, forencouragement, for joy, for fun?
(32:09):
And essentially, that isn't twodifferent things, those are all
part of one, in the same plan,so that I can look at it and say
, oh, here's my game plan, thethings that I'm choosing to
avoid so I can stay healthy, andall the choices I'm making
instead.
And I believe when we do thatwell and when we connect it to
our story, it isn't just aboutrecovery, it's a way of doing
(32:31):
life, and that's what I hopepeople can see from the talk
that I'll bring.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
I am so excited about that idea of connecting our
strategies to our stories in away that says, yes, that's
empowering, as if you don't havea plan for freedom from porn in
2025, or if you have a plan butit's not as deep as what Nick
described, then you aredefinitely going to want to come
to this.
We have a great lineup ofspeakers, and Nick is going to
(32:57):
be one of them, and then we alsowill have a panel discussion
where all speakers will beanswering your questions live.
This is not prerecorded.
This is going to be in themoment and would love to have
you there.
You can go to thepornfreemancomto register for free, and you
can also go down to the links inthe show notes to get a copy of
(33:18):
Beyond the Porn Phenomenon, tocheck out Pure Desire.
Nick, thank you so much forbeing with us.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Thanks again for having me and I hope people will
check it out.
I'll mention one other thingabout Beyond the Porn Phenomenon
there is now Barna has beenwilling to make it free
something called the churchtoolkit.
So if you get the report youcan get a free church toolkit
that includes five more videosfrom people like Julie Slattery
and Sean McDowell uh, myself andAshley on our team are on it
(33:46):
and it also includes anassessment that if you are a
leader of a nonprofit, a church,a community, you could take
that assessment to yourcommunity and maybe you're
wondering, I wonder what thisissue looks like among my people
in my community.
You could have an assessmentfor your own church or community
and get at some of that a verysimplified version of the report
(34:07):
from your people and get atthat reality and that might be
very illuminating as well.
So that's all free.
Look for the church toolkit aspart of the Barna report.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
I'm going to have to take a look at that.
I mean, that would be so greatif so many of us would mobilize
and bring this to our churches,and I think it might drive the
point home out there it's likewhat about us?
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Well, let's, let's look at it, and they've they've
set it up in a way.
It can be totally anonymous.
You, Well, let's look at it andthey've set it up in a way it
can be totally anonymous.
You just get the data from howmany people took it and the
results.
So it could be a very powerfultool to implement.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Absolutely so.
We'll put the link to that inthe show notes.
Thanks again, nick andgentlemen, always remember you
are God's beloved son and you,he is well pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thank you forlistening to this interview with
(00:21):
Nick Stumbo.
Nick is actually one of thespeakers at our upcoming free
online conference, the Porn-Freeman.
On January 10th and 11th, nickand I and three other awesome
speakers are going to be leadingyou live to experience deeper
healing and greater freedom fromporn in 2025.
(00:42):
So go to thepornfreemancom ifyou want to register and join
men from around the world onthis amazing journey.
In this interview with Nick, youare going to get a window into
the newest research on theprevalence of pornography,
especially among practicingChristians.
If you're wondering how manypeople actually think porn is a
(01:02):
problem, how many people arestruggling with it, how many
people are struggling with it insecret, man, some of these
statistics are reallyheartbreaking, some of them are
alarming, and there's also somehope and encouragement that
you're going to hear about,especially when it comes to Gen
Z.
We talk about what some of themost effective solutions are,
(01:22):
and at the end, you'll hear apreview of Nick's presentation
coming up at the Porn-Free man.
Enjoy the episode.
Today, we get to hear from NickStumbo, who is the executive
director of Pure DesireMinistries.
Pure Desire Ministries andBarna Research recently came out
with a new resource calledBeyond the Porn Phenomenon
(01:48):
Beyond the Porn PhenomenonEquipping the Church for a New
Conversation.
Nick, thanks for joining us andI'm really curious to hear why
are you passionate about thisresearch project?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Well, hello, hello, yeah.
Thanks, Drew, for having me onand a chance to talk about this.
You know, like you and HusbandMaterial, we do a lot of work in
this area with sexual addictionand pornography use and
recovery, and we were really, ayear and a half ago, looking
around at you know what's thenew research say?
Because as we would hear peoplespeak or even as we were using
(02:15):
data, I knew like, oh, that'sfrom the 2012 covenant eyes stat
pack, or I read that articlethat's from 2013, or that's from
the 2016 report, the pornphenomenon that Barna did with
Josh McDowell Ministries andCovenant Eyes.
So that you know, research ages, it's only good for so long.
(02:36):
And since 2016, we've all livedthrough the pandemic and watched
kind of an upheaval in oursociety as it comes to gender
identity and fluidity and youknow just political divisiveness
and things happening within thechurch, and I think we felt
like the topic of pornographyhas kind of become a byline for
churches, a little bit of a.
(02:56):
Well, we've been there.
We ran the Conquer series 10years ago, we did that one men's
weekend and now we've moved onto all of these other hot button
topics.
And yet our suspicion, as I'msure for you and many others was
that this issue is not gettingbetter.
We have not dealt with it veryfully, we've just kind of
touched the surface, and yet amajority of people are still
(03:19):
struggling.
And we feel like that beforeyou can be motivated to change
the reality of your church orcommunity or home, you have to
be willing to embrace and acceptwhat that reality is.
And so, in the lack of newresearch, I think it was easy
for people to just be found onpornography use in Christians
and churches and to try to bringback to the surface and put a
(03:48):
spotlight on hey, here's what'shappening in this issue, and not
just to create guilt or shameor make us all feel bad, like oh
yeah, everybody struggles, butto create some motivation to say
we have to do something, we cando something, there are options
available to us now that we'veseen this reality, that we're
going to embrace and run with itand that's been our hope all
(04:11):
along is that the data wouldlead to action, and so we just
felt like God had put that infront of us, and as we reached
out to Barna, they said no,nobody else is doing it.
But it is the question that weget asked more than any other is
when are you going to updatethe porn phenomenon?
And so we said, okay, god, wefeel like you're leading us to
do this and to get this researchout there, and it's been a
(04:34):
really intriguing and enjoyableand challenging process over the
last year plus to get this dataout there.
But, yeah, it's, I think,really illuminating and the
topic of our conversation today.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Thank, you so much for serving all of us in our
communities by making thisavailable, when you talk about
this reality that we are in.
What were some of the majorfindings of the study?
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Well, of course, the leading question that many will
ask is well, how many people arestruggling?
And that's kind of the top offunnel, like what's the reality.
So Barna does a great job withqualitative research not
necessarily quantitative and weeven ask that like, well, hey,
if we pay more, can youinterview more people and can we
make this tens of thousands?
And they said, as they workwith researchers, they've really
(05:22):
found there is a point at whichyou are just getting more of
the same data that you'vealready collected.
And so they said we make surethat we get a more than
sufficient sample of the USpopulation, male and female,
young and old.
And once we've reached thatquota, so to speak, we know
we've got it because they go allacross the country, all the
different demographics.
(05:42):
And so when they looked at thatand we identified people who
were practicing Christians, andso in the survey they would have
revealed that their faith wasimportant to them and they
attended church on a regularbasis.
And among practicing Christians,we found that 54% of practicing
Christians would say thatthey're viewing pornography to
(06:03):
some extent, which, in myknowledge, is the first time
that any major survey has shownthat a majority of people in the
church would say yeah, this isan issue.
I'm having you break that down.
It's 75% of our men, but also afull 40% of women.
So two in five women alsomarked I'm viewing pornography
(06:25):
at least occasionally, and thatnumber has grown, I think, by
about 8% since the data that wasout in 2016.
And we're also able to break itdown by age groups and you find
the numbers grow among youngeradults, and so for millennial
women and Gen Z women, thatnumber climbs to 62% and 64%.
(06:45):
And Gen Z women that numberclimbs to 62% and 64%.
So nearly two thirds of ouryoung adult women would say I'm
struggling with pornography aswell.
So that was some pretty majordata.
And then, among that same groupof practicing Christians, the
question was asked does anybodyknow about your struggle?
And they were given the optionsof family, friend, pastor, an
adult I don't even know,accountability partner, and then
(07:07):
one of the options was no one,and 48% of practicing Christians
said no one knows, and Ithought that was really
eye-opening to say that nearlyhalf of all Christians that
would say this is an issue forme also say and nobody has any
idea, and I think thatunderscores man.
We have got to create safety inthis area, for people to find
(07:29):
help to normalize help withoutnormalizing the behavior.
One other piece of data that Ithought was also very compelling
people were asked howcomfortable of those who marked
I use pornography to some extent.
They were asked how comfortableare you with your pornography
use and only 21% of Christianssaid I wish I didn't use
(07:50):
pornography at all.
Half said I'm comfortable withhow much pornography I'm using,
and I think that underscores theways in which we have
unfortunately normalized thebehavior.
We've accepted it as somethingthat people do.
You know I've tried to changeand I can't really change anyway
, and it's is it that big of adeal?
After all, no one's being hurt.
You know these are all paidperformance.
(08:11):
You know the same reasoning thatwe may be here in culture, I
think, has seeped deeply intothe church and into faith
communities where now half ofall Christians who are
struggling with pornography sayI really have no problem with
the amount that I'm using.
And so for me, and hopefullyfor you and others that are
working in this space, it's areminder that maybe a majority
(08:32):
of those that we could helpdon't even think they need it.
And so what do we do to createin a healthy way, to create
conviction, to create a visionthat how much better life could
be, how much stronger your faithcould be, if we were willing to
tackle this problem and notjust accept that well, I'm just,
you know, I'm just a man, I'mjust going to struggle till I
die to say no change is possible.
(08:54):
And I think that was, like Isaid, eyeopening for us to
realize we need to keep castingthat vision so that people want
to live a life free ofpornography.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Amen.
Yeah, that level of comfortwith pornography rising feels
very alarming to me and probablyreflects some of the changes in
the last 10 years.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Well, it's so ubiquitous I mean a big word to
say it's everywhere.
We are all now one click awayfrom bad decisions and content
that we would regret and thataccess has.
But our growth compared to thesmartphone, ai, um, the devices
that now connect to the internet, including our refrigerators
(09:53):
and our washing machines and,you know, our cars so the
availability of that content isjust exponentially growing, and
the response we're we're, we'relagging behind, and so I think
that's some of what we're seeingis just this broad acceptance
of it's everywhere.
If you can't beat them, jointhem, and let's just do our best
to kind of, you know, to try tokeep this under control.
(10:13):
But I mean, as you and I know,pornography use, compulsive
sexual behavior, is notsomething we control or maintain
.
It is always growing, itincreases in nature and
eventually it controls us, andso I do hope there are pieces of
that that become a little bitof an alarm bell ringing to say
we've got to wake up to someissues here, and so how could we
(10:36):
be a part of seeing that happen, rather than just burying our
heads in the sand and hoping itgets better?
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah.
And in your preface to theresearch you said when asked who
is helping you with yourstruggle with pornography, a
staggering 82% of Christians sayno one.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Well, it kind of goes along with the no one knows.
And it would make sense that ifyou add to that, even for those
that would say someone knows,they still feel like this is
mine to deal with alone.
And if we're honest, that's themessage most of us have
received from our world maybethe church, maybe other sincere
adults that it's kind of likethis is a moral issue.
(11:18):
You need to go, fix it.
Stop doing that, don't do itanymore.
And then you know, make betterchoices.
And so so we we hear a powerfulsermon or read a great book or
listen to a podcast, like, okay,that was the last time, never
again I'm gonna stop.
And we feel like it's this, doit on my own kind of thing, and
that almost feels noble, likeit's up to me and it's a
(11:40):
personal topic, it's private,it's it can be awkward and messy
, and so some ways that evenmakes sense, like I'll just do
this myself.
And yet what we have foundrepeatedly is that is not a
formula for success.
I mean, that's the very formulathat got most of us stuck in
the first place, that we engagedin a behavior that was isolated
, that created patterns of shameand secrecy in our life, and
(12:03):
then, in that same isolation andsecrecy, we're trying to get
better.
Well, no wonder, then?
The data shows that we're notgetting better.
We're actually increasing inour struggle because we feel
like it's something I'm supposedto do by myself, and yet that
just simply doesn't workAbsolutely.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
I was very surprised that 66% of people in this study
believe that with enoughwillpower, a person can overcome
porn addiction on their ownthat is so not true, and we
don't apply that reasoning toother vices in our culture.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Right, like if someone came to you and it had a
20-year battle with gambling ora 15-year challenge with binge
eating or had been on drugs and,as I'm sure you've talked about
on your podcast and we talkabout a lot there are very real
physical chemicals released inthe brain, things like dopamine.
That the way that pornographyuse accentuates dopamine in the
(13:02):
brain is on par with whatcocaine is doing.
And yet if a cocaine addictcame to you and said, yeah, I've
been struggling with cocaineoff and on for 20 years, but
I've got the will now to stop,I'm sure I'm going to just stop,
I don't think any of us wouldlook at that person and go, yeah
, you're right.
Now that you've made thedecision and you've got the will
to do it, you're going to be,you're fine, right, you're good
(13:23):
to go.
No, we'd all say I think you'regoing to need some support.
I think you'll probably need agroup or a program or you'll
need to walk with others thathave been down this road and
they know how to beat this.
Because this isn't justsomething that the pattern quits
because you decide it's time toquit.
It's got a hold in your lifeand that's the reason it's been
(13:43):
there for so long, and so Ithink if we could apply that
reasoning you're right we shouldbe surprised to say what is it
about this topic that we have soeven in the church?
We have so made it a privatething, a personal thing.
Do it on your own church.
We have so made it a privatething, a personal thing.
Do it on your own.
Just make a choice, don't lookat it.
And yet the data again justshows that is not working.
And so some of it is thatmindset that we have to switch
(14:06):
our paradigm away from believingit's a moral problem.
With enough willpower, I juststop to saying I'm going to need
to take some significant stepstowards healing and recovery and
I think, as we embrace that inour communities, in our
nonprofits, in our churches,we're going to be able to
provide people the kind ofsupport they need.
But it starts again.
That's, I think, hopefully, thepower of the data is that we
(14:29):
look at it and say you know what?
What we've been doing, is notworking.
We need some additional supportor strategies here.
And then that's where groupslike husband and material and
pure desire and others can comealongside and say yes, and
that's what we're here for.
We're here to help as you enterinto that journey.
You're not alone, you don'thave to do it by yourself, you
don't have to reinvent the wheeland figure out this whole thing
(14:51):
on your own.
We've walked this road and wewant to walk with you, and so I
hope that kind of that positive,hopeful message can come out of
the data as well.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yes, and the same is true for sexual betrayal trauma.
I really appreciate how you allbrought that into the study too
and are actively telling peoplelike hey, we have support not
just for the person directlystruggling, but also those who
are impacted.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah, absolutely.
There's some pretty tellingstats and people can look at
them because I don't have themall top of mind, but you know,
we asked men who were usingpornography about the impact on
their relationship versus whosespouse was using pornography and
it's just like across the boardtheir opinions of the health of
their relationship, how healthythey think it is for their
(15:40):
relationship.
The user is like, oh, it's notthat big of a deal,
percentage-wise it's fine, it'snot impacting our relationship,
and the spouse is like it's abig deal, it's hurting us, trust
is being violated.
I don't know how I feel aboutmy own body now, the way the
chart shows it.
It's pretty striking to see.
Oh, this is a very differentexperience between the user,
(16:02):
who's probably stuck in someminimizing, rationalizing,
denying, versus the spouse,who's feeling the reality of why
is our marriage not enough?
Why am I not enough?
How come they don't trust me?
How do I trust them whenthey're doing these things
behind my back?
And again, if we can highlightthat to say, if we look around
in our society or church andfeel like marriages aren't
(16:23):
thriving, that too many peopleare getting divorced, I think we
need to address pornography asone of those root causes and see
that the impact it's having ona relationship is very different
between the person strugglingand the person being impacted by
it.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Yeah, that is so important.
I noticed a huge differencebetween how men view porn and
how women view porn.
For men it was way morepositive and for women it was
way more negative.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Within the relationship.
They were asked, you know, ifyour spouse was using
pornography?
Do you view that as a positiveor a negative thing?
And a majority of men actuallysaid their spouse using
pornography was a positive thing.
And I think in my opinion nowthis wasn't asked in the data,
but I think when I look at it, Isay very often when a man has
(17:11):
someone, a wife usingpornography, it's as a way to
create maybe more intrigue inthe bedroom, to spice up their
sex life.
They see it as a way to helpthings along and maybe in the
short run it has created thatbecause pornography has a very
artificial boost, a way that itboosts our hormones and
chemicals and maybe like, hey,man, that was great.
(17:33):
Whereas a wife who has a husbandusing pornography 61% said that
was a negative thing.
And I think they're recognizingthat it's creating unrealistic
expectations, it's causing themnot to bond with one another but
to bond with the screen.
And I think again, much like myearlier answer, when you see
that discrepancy of the way it'sviewed between that discrepancy
(17:58):
of the way it's viewed betweenthat, I mean, if there was any
area in a marriage that youfound out, most men thought it
was good and most women thoughtit was bad.
I think as leaders, as pastors,as friends, we'd say, hey,
there's caution here, becausethere's a real divide, there's a
disconnect between what youthink is happening, what your
spouse thinks is happening andanywhere in a relationship
that's occurring.
That there's a divide, that onesees a negative and the other
(18:22):
sees a positive.
That's going to create friction, tension and potentially a real
division in a marriage.
And so some of those data tellsa striking story that hopefully
we can pay attention to and sayboy, this is impacting
marriages and it's so importantbecause one of the primary lies
is no one is being hurt.
And I think the data paints apicture to say it is impacting
and damaging the marriagerelationship at a pretty
(18:44):
fundamental level.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah, what aspects of the research were most
surprising for you?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
The data that I already mentioned about, that
only 21% wish they didn't usepornography at all.
I felt like that was a littlebit of a lifting the blinders
moment because I think I make anassumption maybe you do, maybe
others do that if we're aChristian who is a person of
convictions, we want to followthe Lord, we're seeking to live
what the Bible says.
That by and large, 95% of uswould say, yeah, I want to live
(19:14):
a life free of lust and adulteryand pornography in my life and
yet to have that be 21% was verytelling of okay.
I think maybe we're missingsomething here.
Sadly, beyond that, I don'tknow that too much of it was
surprising, except maybe interms of almost across the board
(19:34):
, no matter what question weasked.
If you compared it to 2016,it's gotten about eight to 10%
worse in the last seven years.
We're just headed the wrongdirection and I think many of us
have felt that.
But what is maybe a grain ofhopefulness is some of the
answers that we found from Gen Z, because Gen Z men and women
had a stronger opinion thatpornography was bad for society
(19:57):
than millennials did.
They had a stronger opinionthat pornography was bad for
relationships than millennialsdid.
They were more likely to askfor help.
They were more likely to wanttheir church to talk about it
little bit of a pendulum swingwhere our youngest adults, you
(20:18):
know, the kids that grew up withsmartphones and screens from
the very beginning and are nowadults are able to look at this
and say this has not been goodfor our generation.
And we've seen people that gothat route and what it's done to
them or their view of people orrelationships or sex, and it's
not healthy and we're ready todo something about it.
So that's a little bit of hope.
They're only a little bit aheadof millennials, you know, and
(20:38):
we wish they were way ahead, butit's actually the first
generation that we're startingto see some of the numbers go in
a different direction.
And that might speak to, Ithink, a lot of churches and
leaders because, if we're honest, we're talking about adults
under the age of 25, that tendsto be a demographic that doesn't
get a very loud voice in mostchurches or faith communities
(21:00):
and I think to encourage thatgeneration and say we need to
hear your voice Most of us thatare.
You know, I'm Gen X, so I becamea teenager and a young adult
when the internet was kind ofexploding and some of the
numbers of pornography use areworse among Gen X than they are
even millennials, because Ithink we encountered the
internet at a time we had noidea what to do with it and it
(21:23):
may be because of that become alittle.
You know, we try to ignore thesubject.
Where Gen Z it's open, it'stalked about, it's like they see
it, it's their experience andthey're the voices I think we
need to listen to that say we'vegot to do better and we need
our churches to do better.
We need them to be places wecan talk about this and find
help and not feel like we haveto go somewhere else to get help
(21:44):
in this critical area of ourlife.
So if we can listen to Gen Z inthis area, I think we'll be
doing ourself a tremendous favor.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
And I love that.
It's so encouraging.
And, by the way, if you alldon't know, nick has written a
book called Safe about creatingthose safe spaces, which you
might want to check out in thedescription for this.
That would be awesome aboutthis topic and also hear what
(22:13):
they have to say In terms ofsolutions.
What are your thoughts aboutthe data and, specifically, the
most effective solutions forovercoming and outgrowing porn?
Speaker 2 (22:30):
And to me it's where I look at some of those stats
we've talked about that are verymaybe alarming or discouraging
that 82% say no one is helpingme.
48% of Christians say no oneeven knows.
And I look at the silver liningthere on the flip side to say
what if that 82% number thatsays no one is helping me said
someone is helping me, ishelping me?
(22:56):
What if the 48% said there arepeople who know, because I've
had a safe place and safe peoplewho have said we want to help
you.
You can own your negativesexual history or story and
you're not going to be rejectedhere, you're going to be loved
in a safe, confidentialenvironment where you can tell
your whole story among peersthat are doing the same thing.
I just think we can see thoseand go man.
If openness and safety andcommunity is lacking, well, what
(23:17):
if we provided that?
And that's so much of what wemajor in in Pure Desire and what
we're hoping is kind of thatmotivator to say we need to get
people out of doing this ontheir own.
The 66% that think it's just amatter of willpower or that the
number one answer.
You know sometimes in surveysan answer is descriptive, not
prescriptive.
So people were asked like whodo you feel comfortable going to
(23:39):
with your problem?
Well, the number one answer wasa counselor.
But even the number one answerwas less than 50% of people said
they'd feel comfortable tellinga counselor.
So by and large, we don't feelcomfortable in this issue or
safe or appropriate to go toanyone.
And I look at that and say, man, that is such an opportunity
(24:00):
for adults that have, you know,raising kids, for small groups,
for pastors and leaders inchurches, to say how do we
create environments and justkeep saying that message of you
don't have to do this alone, youdon't have to hide this and
we're not just going to send youaway to a professional whose
job it is to help you and andwho you pay to hear your, you
(24:22):
know about your sins and yourproblems.
We actually want that to happenamong the people that know you
and care about you and love you.
And we have seen you know it'smy story and I know a lot of
yours as well that when I wasable to tell my story, my whole
story, I just I don't mean justsaying, yeah, I struggle with
pornography once in a while, Imean telling my whole story of
what had happened in my past,what were the wounds that
(24:44):
created lies in my life thatmade me even seek out for sexual
things as a teenager, how thatbecame a part of my pattern,
when I could tell that wholestory with other men who were on
the same journey and find thatthey didn't run away from me.
They didn't say what the heckwas wrong with you, what were
you thinking, but instead lookedat me with compassion and
understanding and said, yeah, metoo, or I've been there, I know
(25:07):
what that feels like and youget that sense of acceptance and
love in those deepest places.
That's what changes you and andwe couldn't really ask about
you know, like how, how dopeople change?
Because the survey was reallyto just determine the reality of
the struggle and you can't in asurvey necessarily get at some
(25:30):
of those pieces.
But I think it tells the storythat isolation is the problem,
community is the solution,gathering people together in
those spaces where this isnormalized again, where we
normalize the conversationwithout normalizing the behavior
.
I think the data does tell thatstory of community and that need
to create those kinds of placeswhere people say you know what,
(25:51):
back to that list of who.
Do you feel comfortable talkingto?
Someone's pastor or spiritualleader was number nine.
I mean, there were all theseother options, like your doctor,
an adult, you don't.
People would rather go to anadult they don't even know than
to their own pastor.
And I look at that and say,what an opportunity.
What if pastors became thenumber one place that people are
(26:13):
like oh, are you struggling?
You should go talk to ourpastor.
They are so helpful with thistopic, they know what to do.
They'll help connect you to agroup of people.
Like what a difference thatcould make if that was people's
go to it.
And obviously we're not there,but I think we can definitely
move in that direction.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah, no-transcript.
(27:01):
And almost all of them said Iwould want a dad to be talking,
I would want a mom to beteaching about this, and then
how many respondents actuallyhad that experience of like a
healthy, safe, supportiveconversation with their parents?
It was like two and 3%.
Yeah, very low.
(27:22):
Oh, I mean, that is just so sad.
So many of us have beenabandoned in this area.
We've been neglected and wedidn't even know it because we
thought it was normal.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Well, our parents, to their credit, were many of them
.
They were doing the best theycould with what they had.
They weren't given any bettermodels.
They, you know, I've had thisconversation now with my dad as
an adult and we had one birdsand bees talk when I was about
11 years old, which wasincredibly awkward and
eyeopening and helpful, like Ithink my dad did a great job,
but that was the only time Iremember talking about it, and
(28:02):
when we've brought that up, youknow, in my story now, he said
you know, nick, my dad and Inever talked about it ever, and
so I felt like I was doingbetter, that at least we'd had a
good talk, and I answered somequestions and he said you just
didn't do that and I didn't knowwhat to say or what I should
say.
And you know, I of course didmy best to love you and be there
for you, but he just didn'thave a paradigm of even what did
(28:24):
it look like to support kidsgrowing up and figuring out
godly sexuality in our world.
And so it underscores that,whether you know, we're 18 or 88
or anywhere in between, most ofus were never trained, we were
never equipped, and I thinkthat's the opportunities that
people have with groups likeyours and ours to say just lean
into this material, lean intothe resources.
(28:45):
We have much of it's free,watch videos, listen to podcasts
.
Because as we get a little bitof equipping and we start to
understand the nature ofaddiction and how this impacts
the brain and how it's not justa choice in the moment, but it's
usually the outcome of apattern that's been operating in
our lives for, sometimesdecades.
Like when we start to see thosethings, then we understand the
(29:07):
kind of questions to ask someonehow to support our kids when
when they, you know, bring to ussomething that happened at a
friend's house or tell ussomething came up on their phone
when we've never talked aboutit, our natural reaction will be
to kind of freeze up and alittle shock, like I don't know
what to do with this Cause.
I haven't thought about it.
But if, if we've been equippedand educated and it's like man,
(29:29):
I'm ready for this.
I didn't just say to our kidsI'm here to help you.
I'm so glad you brought this tome because I want to be a part
of standing with you in thisjourney and you're not alone.
And I can relate, because I hadto figure some of this stuff
out when I was a kid but I hadno one to help me and I hope I
can be there to help you.
I mean, what a difference thatmakes.
So a little plug there to saytake advantage of resources
(29:53):
where you can be equipped andeducated in this, so that we can
change that narrative for thenext generation.
And it's part of it starts bychanging the narrative for
ourselves.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Amen.
So if you are looking forresources or groups for sex
addiction and betrayal traumaboth sides of this issue are an
amazing focus for Pure Desireyou can go to puredesireorg.
And if you want to join Nickand I live, come to the Porn
(30:27):
Free man Conference on January10th and 11th.
Let's go.
Nick is going to be giving us agame plan for lifelong
integrity.
Can you say more about it?
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Absolutely.
I think on your podcast Ishared my story in an older one.
You know, for 15 years I wasstruggling with a binge purge
issue with pornography.
I loved the Lord, I didn't wantit in my life.
Every time was the last timeand I had guardrails.
I had boundaries which Irepeatedly either broke or they
didn't help me, and I thinkthere are ways in which we can
(31:03):
construct a winning game planwhere guardrails are a
significant part of it.
But those guardrails need to bedeeply tied to our story and to
our personalized experience andpatterns.
Tied to our story and to ourpersonalized experience and
patterns.
And I think a lot of men andwomen you know maybe have some
general boundaries of I'm not onsocial media or I don't take my
cell phone in the bathroom.
There's just some good wisdomand those are helpful.
(31:25):
But if that's all we have,without a more robust plan of
boundaries that we need and whowe're committed to sharing those
with as well as the other halfof the equation is what we'll
talk about as well.
Because when you think about aboundary in our life, as
important as they are, what doesa boundary say to you?
A boundary says no, and yourbrain has been designed by God
(31:47):
to not like the word no.
Your brain has been designed tolike the word yes.
Your brain has been designed tolike the word yes.
And many of us have neverthought as hard as much about
what is the yes.
Because I need healthyboundaries absolutely and I need
to know what my yes is.
Where do I go for renewal, forencouragement, for joy, for fun?
(32:09):
And essentially, that isn't twodifferent things, those are all
part of one, in the same plan,so that I can look at it and say
, oh, here's my game plan, thethings that I'm choosing to
avoid so I can stay healthy, andall the choices I'm making
instead.
And I believe when we do thatwell and when we connect it to
our story, it isn't just aboutrecovery, it's a way of doing
(32:31):
life, and that's what I hopepeople can see from the talk
that I'll bring.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
I am so excited about that idea of connecting our
strategies to our stories in away that says, yes, that's
empowering, as if you don't havea plan for freedom from porn in
2025, or if you have a plan butit's not as deep as what Nick
described, then you aredefinitely going to want to come
to this.
We have a great lineup ofspeakers, and Nick is going to
(32:57):
be one of them, and then we alsowill have a panel discussion
where all speakers will beanswering your questions live.
This is not prerecorded.
This is going to be in themoment and would love to have
you there.
You can go to thepornfreemancomto register for free, and you
can also go down to the links inthe show notes to get a copy of
(33:18):
Beyond the Porn Phenomenon, tocheck out Pure Desire.
Nick, thank you so much forbeing with us.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Thanks again for having me and I hope people will
check it out.
I'll mention one other thingabout Beyond the Porn Phenomenon
there is now Barna has beenwilling to make it free
something called the churchtoolkit.
So if you get the report youcan get a free church toolkit
that includes five more videosfrom people like Julie Slattery
and Sean McDowell uh, myself andAshley on our team are on it
(33:46):
and it also includes anassessment that if you are a
leader of a nonprofit, a church,a community, you could take
that assessment to yourcommunity and maybe you're
wondering, I wonder what thisissue looks like among my people
in my community.
You could have an assessmentfor your own church or community
and get at some of that a verysimplified version of the report
(34:07):
from your people and get atthat reality and that might be
very illuminating as well.
So that's all free.
Look for the church toolkit aspart of the Barna report.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
I'm going to have to take a look at that.
I mean, that would be so greatif so many of us would mobilize
and bring this to our churches,and I think it might drive the
point home out there it's likewhat about us?
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Well, let's, let's look at it, and they've they've
set it up in a way.
It can be totally anonymous.
You, Well, let's look at it andthey've set it up in a way it
can be totally anonymous.
You just get the data from howmany people took it and the
results.
So it could be a very powerfultool to implement.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Absolutely so.
We'll put the link to that inthe show notes.
Thanks again, nick andgentlemen, always remember you
are God's beloved son and you,he is well pleased.
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