December 16, 2024 • 29 mins
Why is purity culture harmful, and how can we heal from it? Dr. Camden Morgante explains what purity culture is, where it came from, and how to let go of toxic beliefs without letting go of your faith. Stay until the end to hear Dr. Camden's beautiful meditation on healing from sexual shame.
Dr. Camden Morgante is a licensed clinical psychologist, writer, speaker, and coach. Dr. Camden combines her personal experience growing up in purity culture with her professional experience in mind-body integration to help her clients and readers heal their faith from toxic beliefs. Learn more at DrCamden.com.
Buy Dr. Camden's book (this is a paid link):
Related episodes:
- Five Failures Of Purity Culture
- Outgrowing Porn vs. Purity Culture
- What Does The Bible Say About Purity?
- How To Make Sex Great (with Sheila Wray Gregoire)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey, my name is Drew Boa.
I'm the founder of HusbandMaterial, where I help men
(00:22):
outgrow porn.
Today's interview with Dr CamdenMorganti was fabulous.
She's the author of Recoveringfrom Purity Culture, an awesome
new resource.
In today's episode, you'regoing to learn what is purity
culture historically, what wasgood and valid and what was
harmful that we need to healfrom.
(00:43):
You're going to learn some ofthe lies and myths that affect
both men and women, especiallyresulting in fear and shame, and
Dr Camden is going to lead usin a wonderfully healing
exercise at the end, which willhelp you shed shame and embrace
confidence as you begin tobelieve and feel that your
(01:07):
sexuality is good.
Enjoy the episode.
Welcome to Husband Material.
Today, I am so excited to betalking with Dr Camden Morganti,
author of Recovering fromPurity Culture.
She is a licensed clinicalpsychologist, writer, speaker
and coach and, by the way, I gotto read this book.
It was amazing.
Welcome, dr Camden.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Thank you, drew, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
You're welcome.
We talk actually quite a bitabout purity culture at Husband
Material and I would love tohear why are you so passionate
about this topic?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I'm passionate because of my own personal
experience, growing up in purityculture and seeing how it
harmed me, especially when itcame to my faith and my faith
journey.
And then, seeing as apsychologist, I began to see how
it was harming my clients invaried ways.
From how it harmed me, it washarming them in their marriage.
It was harming them in theirsexuality.
(02:03):
It was also harming them intheir self-concept, the way that
they felt about themselves andtheir bodies.
So I exclusively work withwomen and married couples and,
yeah, just seeing the effects intheir lives, and I really
wanted to provide a differentperspective than some of the
other books and resources onpurity culture, a specific
perspective for people whowanted to hold on to their faith
(02:25):
and still heal from purityculture, who didn't want to walk
away from their faith in Jesus,their relationship with Him and
even like their values aboutsex being sacred and spiritual
and being for marriage, but theywanted to find that healing
from sexual shame.
So, yes, I hope the book isdoing that is helping people on
(02:45):
that journey.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
As we let go of what was harmful and yet hold on to
our faith.
I find it's really helpful toknow what is purity culture, so
can you give us your definition?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yeah, I agree with you.
It's helpful to know that,because it's essential to be
able to separate what isbiblical and true and then what
was cultural and what was mythis what I call the myths.
And so I define purity cultureas a largely sociocultural
evangelical movement that peakedin the 1990s to 2000s, that
attempted to persuade youngpeople to avoid sex until
(03:22):
marriage, using shame and fearas tools of control and
resulting in shame and fear.
So that's why I distinguish itbetween a belief or a value in
waiting until marriage.
That's one that's been preachedthrough many religions across
many generations.
It's not unique to the 1990s.
(03:42):
The cultural expressions ofpurity culture seem more unique
to the last few decades.
The rings, the books, therallies, the pledges, like those
abstinence-only education inpublic schools those kinds of
things were more unique to whenI, as a millennial, was growing
up and was in school andreceiving what little sex
education I got.
But yeah, but really whatdistinguishes it for me is the
(04:05):
use of fear and shame, becauseit's one thing to hold a
religious belief in abstinenceor to hold that as a value for
yourself, and another thing forit to be coerced out of shame
and fear, and I really want toempower people, for it to be a
choice and for it to besomething that they've really
thought through and come up withtheir why, their reason for it,
(04:26):
rather than something they'redoing out of fear.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
So signing a promise when I'm five years old that I'm
never going to have sex untilmarriage is so heartbreaking.
I grew up in the 90s.
I was a millennial too, but Iremember my only sex education
(04:51):
was one of my parents buying abook for me and leaving it in my
room, and that book was EveryYoung Man's Battle.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah, that can be a really destructive book and
intentionally can be a reallydestructive book and
unintentionally, I think youknow I say a lot of the creators
, authors of purity culture, Ithink, had good intentions.
They wanted us to avoid thedangers of early sexual activity
and you know, as a parent nowmyself, of course like we want
that for our children.
We want them to wait untilthey're definitely until they're
(05:21):
mature enough to make thesecomplex decisions.
And I think the authors ofpurity culture also wanted to
convey the sacredness of sex andreally preach that it belonged
in marriage.
But it had so manyunanticipated consequences, and
one of those being that oursexuality never felt like our
own and something that we hadagency over and that we could
(05:42):
steward in a way that'sconsistent with our faith and
values, but something that wasreally taken from us and
controlled.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Which makes a lot of sense, as you explained, based
on what happened in the 70s andthe 80s.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yeah, I say it was.
Purity culture was a reactionto larger socio-political events
that were going on, like thesexual revolution, the feminist
revolution.
There was a rise in teenpregnancy in the 80s, so of
course that's going to makeeveryone you know get shocked
and outraged and like reactiveof what can we do to stop this?
(06:15):
And it seemed likeabstinence-only education in the
public schools was one way thatthey tried to push back against
that.
But really also that purityculture in the evangelical
church was one way to try tokind of reassert power and
control over young people andparticularly women, because
women were gaining more powerand more equality and so it was
(06:36):
one way to kind of reassert thatpower and control.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, and it instilled in so many of us this
toxic internal belief systemthat sex is bad, bad, bad unless
or until you get married, andthen it's the greatest thing in
the world.
You go into five differentmyths and false promises that
(07:02):
purity culture teaches.
How do these ideas impact women?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
I think that everyone who writes and talks about
purity culture will acknowledgethat women were most affected by
purity culture, probably moreinsidiously and longer lasting
effects.
But it certainly affects mentoo, and I know that's what we
wanna talk about.
But to also understand how itaffects men, you have to
understand how it affects womenand vice versa, like when we're
(07:29):
in relationship with each otherand in a marriage.
I'm a therapist so I do sextherapy for Christian couples
and I always say, like, whenthere's a sexual problem, it's
not a me or you problem, it's anus problem.
And so it will be helpful formen to also understand how their
wives have been affected sothat they can then understand
the effects on them and us.
For the myths, we can kind ofwalk through those and then talk
(07:51):
about how they affect men andwomen.
The first one is the spiritualbarometer myth, that this idea
that we're better Christians ifwe are virgins before marriage,
you know, and that a large partof our virtue, especially for
women, is tied to your virginityor purity.
And you see that, like I make adistinction or a connection to
(08:12):
Bridgerton.
You know the show Bridgerton oflike, even in that Regency era
in England, like for women,virginity was prized and so
important to the possibility ofeven finding a spouse.
But for men there's also what'sbeen called sexual
exceptionalism, meaning thatsexual sins are seen as the
unforgivable sin.
(08:33):
They're seen as exceptional,and I think you see that for men
, as in like, their spiritualmaturity is just equated to how
many times have you masturbatedthis week or have you looked at
porn this week?
Like it's very narrow.
This idea of discipleship isvery narrow, and just how you
act out or handle your sexuality, and that's a very immature and
(08:54):
narrow definition of one'sspirituality.
That fosters a lot of shame forpeople who do struggle in those
areas.
And then, I think, pride andjudgmentalism for people who
don't seem to struggle as muchoutwardly, and I know that.
You know I share that.
That affected me because I didfeel like I did things you know
quote the right way and followedthe rules, and so there was a
(09:15):
lot of pride and judgmentalismof others who didn't.
And also, then, shame of likeyou know, why am I still single?
Why have I not found the oneand these other people have?
Speaker 1 (09:27):
So it turned into a really ugly and sinful pride.
Yeah, I mean, we see that prideand shame in so many of these
so-called accountability groups.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
I also see this piece of like feeling entitled to sex
, sometimes with men who haveachieved sobriety, sex sometimes
with men who have achievedsobriety and they're thinking
well, now I should be able tohave what I want in the bedroom
because I've been free for thislong, and it's still very
self-centered and very damaging.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
I think I see that entitlement in the next two
myths the fairytale myth, whichis this idea that if I'm pure
and follow the rules, god'sgoing to give me a fairytale
marriage.
And the flipped switch myth,which is, once I'm married, I'll
flip a switch and sex goes fromoff limits and sinful to now
amazing and holy.
And I found that women areoften promised the fairy tale
(10:18):
myth a lot more like it's reallybuilt up as you're going to
find your prince and this, youknow this the one that God has
for you, and men were maybe nottold that as much as they were
the promise of great sex.
If you wait, as long as youwait, it's going to be amazing
and all of your sexual wishesand desires will be fulfilled in
marriage by your wife.
Yeah, and that that really isso damaging to the marriage, to
(10:40):
both spouses, um, really settingthem up for inequality from day
one and a very selfish andself-serving view of sex instead
of self-sharing andself-control, which is a fruit
of the spirit for all of us, notjust for women.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Can you say more about self-sharing?
Sure?
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Yeah, so that's another thing I really emphasize
in my sex therapy practice is,instead of sex is give and take.
You know, we use this languagea lot, a lot like I'm going to
give him a blow job or I'm goingto take pleasure, or take from
her yourself or taking from theother one.
You're choosing to share yourbody, share this experience,
(11:27):
share pleasure, share time witheach other, because that sounds
more mutual to me the idea ofsharing, and this being a mutual
sharing that we're both doing,rather than this transaction of
give and take.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Wow, I love that.
For many men it's helpful todistinguish between that time or
like that.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
you know we have to keep score or something like
that, but that each partner'sexperience and desires and
(12:12):
comfort and pleasure, like bothof their experiences matter and
one really doesn't supersede theother and cannot be demanded of
the other.
So you know, I think that goesalong with this idea that women
are the gatekeepers of sexualitybefore marriage, responsible
for putting on the brakes andsetting boundaries and kind of
(12:33):
making sure we're not going toofar, and then, after marriage,
being sexually available to meettheir husband's sexual needs.
And I argue that sex is not aneed.
And so this is something foryour listeners to maybe kind of
mull over.
When we say need, by that Imean physiologically, that you
cannot survive without it, likewe cannot survive without water
(12:54):
or food or sleep or some sort ofshelter or attachment and
belonging.
That is a hardwired need thatwe have as humans to belong, to
attach, to have connection withother humans.
But what's not a physiologicalneed is intercourse.
We can live without that.
So I think a lot of times myfemale clients have been told
(13:15):
that sex is a need for theirhusband and so they need.
They're the only ones that canmeet it.
So they have to give sex.
And my male clients have boughtinto that too.
Like you know, I need it.
She's the only one that can.
You know, biblically I can getthat need met from, but it's
really not a need.
The connection is, and thatdoesn't mean sex isn't important
, so I'm not downplaying itsimportance or its value in
(13:38):
marriage.
But I want to help my couplesexpand this definition of
intimacy and their idea andconcept of intimacy.
I define it as anything thatmakes you feel close and
connected to your spouse, andone of the ways that I have
found men affected by purityculture, and probably our
broader culture too, is thisvery narrow definition of
(13:58):
intimacy as equaling sexualintercourse.
I have yet to work with acouple or a male whose love
language is not physical touch.
You know they all say that andthat's fine, like there's
nothing wrong with that as alove language and that's, that's
wonderful, and affectiondefinitely is nice to have in a
loving relationship.
(14:19):
But when that physical touch isequated with sex and that's my
love language, so that's how Ifeel loved and so that's what
you need to give to me in orderfor me to feel loved.
It's a very immature definitionof intimacy and understanding of
love If the only way you knowhow to feel loved or feel close
and connected to your spouse isthrough intercourse.
And that sets us up for theobligation sex message that
(14:41):
Sheila Gregoire talks about andI cite her in my book the idea
that sex is an obligation forwomen, which then has she's done
research to show that thatcorrelates to lower rates of
sexual desire for women, becauseif it's an obligation or a duty
, why would you want to do it?
You know there's not.
There's not as much interestthan if it's something that you
are choosing to share and thatit's for you too and for your
(15:06):
pleasure and experience too.
So yeah, so those are some ways.
The gatekeeper's myth, I think,affects men and women.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
We see it with guys who say these women, or even
these men are not wearing enoughclothes and they're causing me
to stumble.
We also see it when guys willsay how am I supposed to be free
from porn?
How am I supposed to manage mysexuality when she's withholding
(15:38):
from me, or it's been two yearssince we've had sex.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, and that's a hard situation.
It's really a both and there.
For me that it's both partnersresponsibilities, you know, and
there's there's a role that eachof them play.
It's not a hundred percent onone and 0% on the other, vice
versa, Like I don't think it'sreasonable or realistic for any
spouse, whether male or female,to just declare a strike on sex
(16:04):
and I'm not going to have sexever again, unless there's some
physical reason for that, orcertainly if there is abuse and
coercion and sex has been usedas this tool to control in the
past an obligation.
Sex has affected them and makessense that they may need to take
a break while they work onhealing that.
That's often where I come in asa therapist and can help
(16:24):
couples work on healing that sothey can get back to a place of
mutual sharing of intimacy.
So, other than those reasons, Idon't think it's realistic for
any spouse to say like we'rejust never going to have sex
again.
It is realistic to say I wantto be treated with respect and
dignity in order to share myselfin that way with you.
But it's also example of theman's responsibility to also
(16:49):
have sexual self-control and tosteward his sexuality that God
has given him, regardless ofwhat his wife is doing.
And again, I say that with lotsof caveats, Like I think you
know, it's both people need toare going to have to work on
themselves and work on themarriage and have to be willing
to get help and to change.
But yeah, self-control is afruit of the spirit for all of
(17:10):
us and it's not dependent onwhat others are doing.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
So helpful and challenging and good.
The last myth you talk about isthe damaged goods myth.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, I think that is the most damaging overall
because it's really the mostshaming of the myths, this idea
that you are damaged goods ifyou have premarital sex, if you
go too far, if you struggle withporn or masturbation.
And I also believe it's notbiblical because when Jesus
looks at us, he doesn't see thiswilting, damaged, broken rose
(17:42):
that is, you know, with petalsmissing, which is one of the
object lessons of purity cultureand why my book has roses on
the cover, but he sees his childmade in his image.
And we all are and we're allsinners in need of grace
according to the Bible, and thatgrace and forgiveness and
restoration is there, like Godis there to restore us and make
(18:04):
us whole, no matter what oursexual sins are or non-sexual
sins, you know, no matter whatthey are.
Yeah, so I don't want people toever feel like they are broken
and damaged and beyond repair.
No matter how many times you'vefallen or messed up, it doesn't
mean there aren't consequencesyou know there aren't results to
(18:24):
our choices or to our sins, butthat God is there to forgive us
and to work through thoseconsequences with us.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Amen.
Throughout the book you giveexercises for healing and
processing.
How do we heal from the shameof purity culture?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I think that's a complex process that starts with
recognizing shame.
Guilt is I did something wrongor bad.
Shame is I am bad or flawed orbroken.
And guilt can be a healthyemotion when it motivates us to
action and to repair.
So when we recognize that ourchoices are not aligned with our
values and beliefs, guilt is ahealthy and justified response
(19:08):
to that.
So for people who have usedpornography and recognize like
that is not consistent with mybeliefs, like that goes against
my faith or my values, or maybethey've treated their spouse in
a way where they have used sexas a tool of control, coercion
or manipulation and that can bemen or women and they recognize
like that's not how I want it tobe, that's not what my values
(19:29):
say about sex, then there'sgoing to be some healthy guilt
that can then lead us to repair,to repentance, to making amends
and to change, you know, toreally taking a hard look at
ourselves and evaluating ouractions and what changes we want
to make so that we can live alife of integrity and alignment
with our beliefs.
So guilt can be healthy.
Shame is not healthy andadaptive because when the focus
(19:52):
is on your total identity, I ambad, I am broken, I am flawed, I
am beyond repair.
Rather than just a behavior, itjust puts us in this pit of
shame and despair, and shamemakes us want to isolate and
withdraw from others too.
So I think with that, what I'veseen with men who do struggle
with pornography or masturbationand want to stop that, it's a
(20:14):
very shameful and secretive kindof behavior that they don't
want anyone to know about, thatthey don't want to confess to
their wife or to their friendsor, you know, spiritual leaders
or mentors, because there's somuch shame about it.
But that shame, that is whatdrives them back to it.
You know that very shame iswhat will drive you back to the
cycle.
So the antidote to that isactually to expose what you feel
(20:37):
ashamed of and to receiveempathy and connection as the
antidote to shame.
So that's a tricky processbecause not everybody is safe to
share with, not everybody isgoing to offer empathy and
connection.
So the example you were givingof like an accountability group
where there can be a lot ofself-righteousness, I imagine if
someone did share in the groupwhat they were struggling with
(21:00):
or confess a sin, and someone'slike well, I haven't struggled
with that anymore, look what Idid you know that's going to
actually add to the shame ratherthan heal it.
So you do have to be selectiveabout finding safe community and
safe people to share that with.
And again doesn't mean it won'tcome with some consequences,
like if you were to confess itto your spouse or something like
that.
(21:20):
There's going to be a reaction,understandably.
But also that you need thatsense of empathy and you are not
a bad person.
You are not broken beyondrepair.
Your behavior is unacceptable,but you are accepted and loved
and affirmed by God.
So that's the difference whenit comes to healing shame is to
(21:43):
start with noticing thedifference and being able to
identify it and then reachingout for that connection with
others, with God and withyourself.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Amen, and we often pursue that connection also with
the little boy within us.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah, like some inner child work.
Yeah, what, what does?
What does that look like forthe people you've talked to or
seen?
Speaker 1 (22:08):
And we learn more about the boy who was first
exploited by porn, andoftentimes, when we heal the boy
, we experience a lot morefreedom in adulthood.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Yeah, that's wonderful.
I imagine that is a veryvulnerable and painful process,
though.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Yeah, it is, and it often takes us into internal
experiential exercises.
So I really appreciated how youincluded a number of exercises
in the book.
I was wondering if you might beable to lead us in an exercise.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Oh, okay, let me do a mindfulness kind of embodiment
one and combine that with somepositive affirmations too.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Love it.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah, because I think men need to know that their
sexuality is good and a giftfrom God and not something you
know, that this battle you knowlike this, something that is
like fundamentally flawed andevil.
So let's do that.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
That sounds great.
So if you're listening to this,you may want to find a
comfortable place to sit.
Maybe take it off to X speed.
Let's breathe and go throughthis exercise.
Dr Camden is about to leave.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
So I'm going to lead you in a mindfulness exercise
with some positive affirmations.
So settle into wherever you'resitting right now a chair, your
couch.
You can close your eyes or lookdown with a soft gaze if you're
comfortable, and just start totake some deep breaths.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Just noticing the position of your body on the
chair, your feet on the floor,your hands resting in your lap.
Begin to observe and justnotice your thoughts, body
(24:20):
sensations and emotions.
Don't push them away and don'tcling to them, Just let them
come and go.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
When a feeling or thought arises, just acknowledge
it non-judgmentally.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
And as you sit there, breathing deeply, repeat some
of these positive affirmationsto yourself.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Positive affirmations are validating statements that
you can reflect on in momentswhen you need confidence and
they can be made into aspiritual practice of breath
prayers as you inhale on thefirst half of the phrase and
inhale on the first half of thephrase and exhale on the second
half of the phrase, making thisa conversation with God.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
So inhale my body is good.
Exhale Inhale body is good.
Exhale Inhale my body and I areone and exhale.
Inhale I am known and loved andexhale.
(25:54):
Inhale.
Inhale I acknowledge my sexualdesires and exhale.
Inhale I can enjoy sensualitywithout shame and exhale.
(26:29):
Inhale I honor my sexuality andexhale.
Inhale God you created me.
And exhale as a sexual being.
(26:54):
Inhale I am made.
Exhale in God's image.
Inhale my sexuality.
Exhale is a gift from God, is agift from God.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
So write down which ones of those resonate with you
and meditate on them in thefuture, when you are feeling
shame and you need to remindyourself that your sexuality is
good and a gift from God andthat you, together with God, can
choose how to steward it in away that honors him and honors
yourself.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Thank you, Dr Camden.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Yeah, you're welcome.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
That was very regulating.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Good, well, that was nice to do.
I haven't gotten to do one ofthose on a podcast.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
For you personally what is your favorite thing
about recovering from purityculture?
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Well, of course, it's connecting with other what I
call purity culture survivors.
It's connecting with otherpeople and knowing that we're
not alone and knowing that we'renot the only one, and that has
just been the biggest antidoteto shame.
Like I said, just being able tomeet, talk, speak with,
interact with, write to you,know all of all of that with
(28:15):
other people who experiencedthis, and some in many, many and
worse ways than I did.
It's so validating and healing.
Yeah, I think it is for them asit is for me, and just knowing
that I can, the journey thatI've been on personally and
professionally, that God can usethat to help others on their
journey of recovery, is justyeah, it's really validating.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Thank you so much for speaking with us.
And, gentlemen, if you want toget a copy of Recovering from
Purity Culture by Dr CamdenMorganti, Go down to the show
notes and you'll see a link tobuy the book.
You can also learn more atdrcamdencom.
Always remember you are God'sbeloved son.
(29:03):
In you he is well-pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey, my name is Drew Boa.
I'm the founder of HusbandMaterial, where I help men
(00:22):
outgrow porn.
Today's interview with Dr CamdenMorganti was fabulous.
She's the author of Recoveringfrom Purity Culture, an awesome
new resource.
In today's episode, you'regoing to learn what is purity
culture historically, what wasgood and valid and what was
harmful that we need to healfrom.
(00:43):
You're going to learn some ofthe lies and myths that affect
both men and women, especiallyresulting in fear and shame, and
Dr Camden is going to lead usin a wonderfully healing
exercise at the end, which willhelp you shed shame and embrace
confidence as you begin tobelieve and feel that your
(01:07):
sexuality is good.
Enjoy the episode.
Welcome to Husband Material.
Today, I am so excited to betalking with Dr Camden Morganti,
author of Recovering fromPurity Culture.
She is a licensed clinicalpsychologist, writer, speaker
and coach and, by the way, I gotto read this book.
It was amazing.
Welcome, dr Camden.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Thank you, drew, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
You're welcome.
We talk actually quite a bitabout purity culture at Husband
Material and I would love tohear why are you so passionate
about this topic?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
I'm passionate because of my own personal
experience, growing up in purityculture and seeing how it
harmed me, especially when itcame to my faith and my faith
journey.
And then, seeing as apsychologist, I began to see how
it was harming my clients invaried ways.
From how it harmed me, it washarming them in their marriage.
It was harming them in theirsexuality.
(02:03):
It was also harming them intheir self-concept, the way that
they felt about themselves andtheir bodies.
So I exclusively work withwomen and married couples and,
yeah, just seeing the effects intheir lives, and I really
wanted to provide a differentperspective than some of the
other books and resources onpurity culture, a specific
perspective for people whowanted to hold on to their faith
(02:25):
and still heal from purityculture, who didn't want to walk
away from their faith in Jesus,their relationship with Him and
even like their values aboutsex being sacred and spiritual
and being for marriage, but theywanted to find that healing
from sexual shame.
So, yes, I hope the book isdoing that is helping people on
(02:45):
that journey.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
As we let go of what was harmful and yet hold on to
our faith.
I find it's really helpful toknow what is purity culture, so
can you give us your definition?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yeah, I agree with you.
It's helpful to know that,because it's essential to be
able to separate what isbiblical and true and then what
was cultural and what was mythis what I call the myths.
And so I define purity cultureas a largely sociocultural
evangelical movement that peakedin the 1990s to 2000s, that
attempted to persuade youngpeople to avoid sex until
(03:22):
marriage, using shame and fearas tools of control and
resulting in shame and fear.
So that's why I distinguish itbetween a belief or a value in
waiting until marriage.
That's one that's been preachedthrough many religions across
many generations.
It's not unique to the 1990s.
(03:42):
The cultural expressions ofpurity culture seem more unique
to the last few decades.
The rings, the books, therallies, the pledges, like those
abstinence-only education inpublic schools those kinds of
things were more unique to whenI, as a millennial, was growing
up and was in school andreceiving what little sex
education I got.
But yeah, but really whatdistinguishes it for me is the
(04:05):
use of fear and shame, becauseit's one thing to hold a
religious belief in abstinenceor to hold that as a value for
yourself, and another thing forit to be coerced out of shame
and fear, and I really want toempower people, for it to be a
choice and for it to besomething that they've really
thought through and come up withtheir why, their reason for it,
(04:26):
rather than something they'redoing out of fear.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
So signing a promise when I'm five years old that I'm
never going to have sex untilmarriage is so heartbreaking.
I grew up in the 90s.
I was a millennial too, but Iremember my only sex education
(04:51):
was one of my parents buying abook for me and leaving it in my
room, and that book was EveryYoung Man's Battle.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah, that can be a really destructive book and
intentionally can be a reallydestructive book and
unintentionally, I think youknow I say a lot of the creators
, authors of purity culture, Ithink, had good intentions.
They wanted us to avoid thedangers of early sexual activity
and you know, as a parent nowmyself, of course like we want
that for our children.
We want them to wait untilthey're definitely until they're
(05:21):
mature enough to make thesecomplex decisions.
And I think the authors ofpurity culture also wanted to
convey the sacredness of sex andreally preach that it belonged
in marriage.
But it had so manyunanticipated consequences, and
one of those being that oursexuality never felt like our
own and something that we hadagency over and that we could
(05:42):
steward in a way that'sconsistent with our faith and
values, but something that wasreally taken from us and
controlled.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Which makes a lot of sense, as you explained, based
on what happened in the 70s andthe 80s.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yeah, I say it was.
Purity culture was a reactionto larger socio-political events
that were going on, like thesexual revolution, the feminist
revolution.
There was a rise in teenpregnancy in the 80s, so of
course that's going to makeeveryone you know get shocked
and outraged and like reactiveof what can we do to stop this?
(06:15):
And it seemed likeabstinence-only education in the
public schools was one way thatthey tried to push back against
that.
But really also that purityculture in the evangelical
church was one way to try tokind of reassert power and
control over young people andparticularly women, because
women were gaining more powerand more equality and so it was
(06:36):
one way to kind of reassert thatpower and control.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, and it instilled in so many of us this
toxic internal belief systemthat sex is bad, bad, bad unless
or until you get married, andthen it's the greatest thing in
the world.
You go into five differentmyths and false promises that
(07:02):
purity culture teaches.
How do these ideas impact women?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
I think that everyone who writes and talks about
purity culture will acknowledgethat women were most affected by
purity culture, probably moreinsidiously and longer lasting
effects.
But it certainly affects mentoo, and I know that's what we
wanna talk about.
But to also understand how itaffects men, you have to
understand how it affects womenand vice versa, like when we're
(07:29):
in relationship with each otherand in a marriage.
I'm a therapist so I do sextherapy for Christian couples
and I always say, like, whenthere's a sexual problem, it's
not a me or you problem, it's anus problem.
And so it will be helpful formen to also understand how their
wives have been affected sothat they can then understand
the effects on them and us.
For the myths, we can kind ofwalk through those and then talk
(07:51):
about how they affect men andwomen.
The first one is the spiritualbarometer myth, that this idea
that we're better Christians ifwe are virgins before marriage,
you know, and that a large partof our virtue, especially for
women, is tied to your virginityor purity.
And you see that, like I make adistinction or a connection to
(08:12):
Bridgerton.
You know the show Bridgerton oflike, even in that Regency era
in England, like for women,virginity was prized and so
important to the possibility ofeven finding a spouse.
But for men there's also what'sbeen called sexual
exceptionalism, meaning thatsexual sins are seen as the
unforgivable sin.
(08:33):
They're seen as exceptional,and I think you see that for men
, as in like, their spiritualmaturity is just equated to how
many times have you masturbatedthis week or have you looked at
porn this week?
Like it's very narrow.
This idea of discipleship isvery narrow, and just how you
act out or handle your sexuality, and that's a very immature and
(08:54):
narrow definition of one'sspirituality.
That fosters a lot of shame forpeople who do struggle in those
areas.
And then, I think, pride andjudgmentalism for people who
don't seem to struggle as muchoutwardly, and I know that.
You know I share that.
That affected me because I didfeel like I did things you know
quote the right way and followedthe rules, and so there was a
(09:15):
lot of pride and judgmentalismof others who didn't.
And also, then, shame of likeyou know, why am I still single?
Why have I not found the oneand these other people have?
Speaker 1 (09:27):
So it turned into a really ugly and sinful pride.
Yeah, I mean, we see that prideand shame in so many of these
so-called accountability groups.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
I also see this piece of like feeling entitled to sex
, sometimes with men who haveachieved sobriety, sex sometimes
with men who have achievedsobriety and they're thinking
well, now I should be able tohave what I want in the bedroom
because I've been free for thislong, and it's still very
self-centered and very damaging.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
I think I see that entitlement in the next two
myths the fairytale myth, whichis this idea that if I'm pure
and follow the rules, god'sgoing to give me a fairytale
marriage.
And the flipped switch myth,which is, once I'm married, I'll
flip a switch and sex goes fromoff limits and sinful to now
amazing and holy.
And I found that women areoften promised the fairy tale
(10:18):
myth a lot more like it's reallybuilt up as you're going to
find your prince and this, youknow this the one that God has
for you, and men were maybe nottold that as much as they were
the promise of great sex.
If you wait, as long as youwait, it's going to be amazing
and all of your sexual wishesand desires will be fulfilled in
marriage by your wife.
Yeah, and that that really isso damaging to the marriage, to
(10:40):
both spouses, um, really settingthem up for inequality from day
one and a very selfish andself-serving view of sex instead
of self-sharing andself-control, which is a fruit
of the spirit for all of us, notjust for women.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Can you say more about self-sharing?
Sure?
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Yeah, so that's another thing I really emphasize
in my sex therapy practice is,instead of sex is give and take.
You know, we use this languagea lot, a lot like I'm going to
give him a blow job or I'm goingto take pleasure, or take from
her yourself or taking from theother one.
You're choosing to share yourbody, share this experience,
(11:27):
share pleasure, share time witheach other, because that sounds
more mutual to me the idea ofsharing, and this being a mutual
sharing that we're both doing,rather than this transaction of
give and take.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Wow, I love that.
For many men it's helpful todistinguish between that time or
like that.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
you know we have to keep score or something like
that, but that each partner'sexperience and desires and
(12:12):
comfort and pleasure, like bothof their experiences matter and
one really doesn't supersede theother and cannot be demanded of
the other.
So you know, I think that goesalong with this idea that women
are the gatekeepers of sexualitybefore marriage, responsible
for putting on the brakes andsetting boundaries and kind of
(12:33):
making sure we're not going toofar, and then, after marriage,
being sexually available to meettheir husband's sexual needs.
And I argue that sex is not aneed.
And so this is something foryour listeners to maybe kind of
mull over.
When we say need, by that Imean physiologically, that you
cannot survive without it, likewe cannot survive without water
(12:54):
or food or sleep or some sort ofshelter or attachment and
belonging.
That is a hardwired need thatwe have as humans to belong, to
attach, to have connection withother humans.
But what's not a physiologicalneed is intercourse.
We can live without that.
So I think a lot of times myfemale clients have been told
(13:15):
that sex is a need for theirhusband and so they need.
They're the only ones that canmeet it.
So they have to give sex.
And my male clients have boughtinto that too.
Like you know, I need it.
She's the only one that can.
You know, biblically I can getthat need met from, but it's
really not a need.
The connection is, and thatdoesn't mean sex isn't important
, so I'm not downplaying itsimportance or its value in
(13:38):
marriage.
But I want to help my couplesexpand this definition of
intimacy and their idea andconcept of intimacy.
I define it as anything thatmakes you feel close and
connected to your spouse, andone of the ways that I have
found men affected by purityculture, and probably our
broader culture too, is thisvery narrow definition of
(13:58):
intimacy as equaling sexualintercourse.
I have yet to work with acouple or a male whose love
language is not physical touch.
You know they all say that andthat's fine, like there's
nothing wrong with that as alove language and that's, that's
wonderful, and affectiondefinitely is nice to have in a
loving relationship.
(14:19):
But when that physical touch isequated with sex and that's my
love language, so that's how Ifeel loved and so that's what
you need to give to me in orderfor me to feel loved.
It's a very immature definitionof intimacy and understanding of
love If the only way you knowhow to feel loved or feel close
and connected to your spouse isthrough intercourse.
And that sets us up for theobligation sex message that
(14:41):
Sheila Gregoire talks about andI cite her in my book the idea
that sex is an obligation forwomen, which then has she's done
research to show that thatcorrelates to lower rates of
sexual desire for women, becauseif it's an obligation or a duty
, why would you want to do it?
You know there's not.
There's not as much interestthan if it's something that you
are choosing to share and thatit's for you too and for your
(15:06):
pleasure and experience too.
So yeah, so those are some ways.
The gatekeeper's myth, I think,affects men and women.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
We see it with guys who say these women, or even
these men are not wearing enoughclothes and they're causing me
to stumble.
We also see it when guys willsay how am I supposed to be free
from porn?
How am I supposed to manage mysexuality when she's withholding
(15:38):
from me, or it's been two yearssince we've had sex.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, and that's a hard situation.
It's really a both and there.
For me that it's both partnersresponsibilities, you know, and
there's there's a role that eachof them play.
It's not a hundred percent onone and 0% on the other, vice
versa, Like I don't think it'sreasonable or realistic for any
spouse, whether male or female,to just declare a strike on sex
(16:04):
and I'm not going to have sexever again, unless there's some
physical reason for that, orcertainly if there is abuse and
coercion and sex has been usedas this tool to control in the
past an obligation.
Sex has affected them and makessense that they may need to take
a break while they work onhealing that.
That's often where I come in asa therapist and can help
(16:24):
couples work on healing that sothey can get back to a place of
mutual sharing of intimacy.
So, other than those reasons, Idon't think it's realistic for
any spouse to say like we'rejust never going to have sex
again.
It is realistic to say I wantto be treated with respect and
dignity in order to share myselfin that way with you.
But it's also example of theman's responsibility to also
(16:49):
have sexual self-control and tosteward his sexuality that God
has given him, regardless ofwhat his wife is doing.
And again, I say that with lotsof caveats, Like I think you
know, it's both people need toare going to have to work on
themselves and work on themarriage and have to be willing
to get help and to change.
But yeah, self-control is afruit of the spirit for all of
(17:10):
us and it's not dependent onwhat others are doing.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
So helpful and challenging and good.
The last myth you talk about isthe damaged goods myth.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, I think that is the most damaging overall
because it's really the mostshaming of the myths, this idea
that you are damaged goods ifyou have premarital sex, if you
go too far, if you struggle withporn or masturbation.
And I also believe it's notbiblical because when Jesus
looks at us, he doesn't see thiswilting, damaged, broken rose
(17:42):
that is, you know, with petalsmissing, which is one of the
object lessons of purity cultureand why my book has roses on
the cover, but he sees his childmade in his image.
And we all are and we're allsinners in need of grace
according to the Bible, and thatgrace and forgiveness and
restoration is there, like Godis there to restore us and make
(18:04):
us whole, no matter what oursexual sins are or non-sexual
sins, you know, no matter whatthey are.
Yeah, so I don't want people toever feel like they are broken
and damaged and beyond repair.
No matter how many times you'vefallen or messed up, it doesn't
mean there aren't consequencesyou know there aren't results to
(18:24):
our choices or to our sins, butthat God is there to forgive us
and to work through thoseconsequences with us.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Amen.
Throughout the book you giveexercises for healing and
processing.
How do we heal from the shameof purity culture?
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I think that's a complex process that starts with
recognizing shame.
Guilt is I did something wrongor bad.
Shame is I am bad or flawed orbroken.
And guilt can be a healthyemotion when it motivates us to
action and to repair.
So when we recognize that ourchoices are not aligned with our
values and beliefs, guilt is ahealthy and justified response
(19:08):
to that.
So for people who have usedpornography and recognize like
that is not consistent with mybeliefs, like that goes against
my faith or my values, or maybethey've treated their spouse in
a way where they have used sexas a tool of control, coercion
or manipulation and that can bemen or women and they recognize
like that's not how I want it tobe, that's not what my values
(19:29):
say about sex, then there'sgoing to be some healthy guilt
that can then lead us to repair,to repentance, to making amends
and to change, you know, toreally taking a hard look at
ourselves and evaluating ouractions and what changes we want
to make so that we can live alife of integrity and alignment
with our beliefs.
So guilt can be healthy.
Shame is not healthy andadaptive because when the focus
(19:52):
is on your total identity, I ambad, I am broken, I am flawed, I
am beyond repair.
Rather than just a behavior, itjust puts us in this pit of
shame and despair, and shamemakes us want to isolate and
withdraw from others too.
So I think with that, what I'veseen with men who do struggle
with pornography or masturbationand want to stop that, it's a
(20:14):
very shameful and secretive kindof behavior that they don't
want anyone to know about, thatthey don't want to confess to
their wife or to their friendsor, you know, spiritual leaders
or mentors, because there's somuch shame about it.
But that shame, that is whatdrives them back to it.
You know that very shame iswhat will drive you back to the
cycle.
So the antidote to that isactually to expose what you feel
(20:37):
ashamed of and to receiveempathy and connection as the
antidote to shame.
So that's a tricky processbecause not everybody is safe to
share with, not everybody isgoing to offer empathy and
connection.
So the example you were givingof like an accountability group
where there can be a lot ofself-righteousness, I imagine if
someone did share in the groupwhat they were struggling with
(21:00):
or confess a sin, and someone'slike well, I haven't struggled
with that anymore, look what Idid you know that's going to
actually add to the shame ratherthan heal it.
So you do have to be selectiveabout finding safe community and
safe people to share that with.
And again doesn't mean it won'tcome with some consequences,
like if you were to confess itto your spouse or something like
that.
(21:20):
There's going to be a reaction,understandably.
But also that you need thatsense of empathy and you are not
a bad person.
You are not broken beyondrepair.
Your behavior is unacceptable,but you are accepted and loved
and affirmed by God.
So that's the difference whenit comes to healing shame is to
(21:43):
start with noticing thedifference and being able to
identify it and then reachingout for that connection with
others, with God and withyourself.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Amen, and we often pursue that connection also with
the little boy within us.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah, like some inner child work.
Yeah, what, what does?
What does that look like forthe people you've talked to or
seen?
Speaker 1 (22:08):
And we learn more about the boy who was first
exploited by porn, andoftentimes, when we heal the boy
, we experience a lot morefreedom in adulthood.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Yeah, that's wonderful.
I imagine that is a veryvulnerable and painful process,
though.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Yeah, it is, and it often takes us into internal
experiential exercises.
So I really appreciated how youincluded a number of exercises
in the book.
I was wondering if you might beable to lead us in an exercise.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Oh, okay, let me do a mindfulness kind of embodiment
one and combine that with somepositive affirmations too.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Love it.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah, because I think men need to know that their
sexuality is good and a giftfrom God and not something you
know, that this battle you knowlike this, something that is
like fundamentally flawed andevil.
So let's do that.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
That sounds great.
So if you're listening to this,you may want to find a
comfortable place to sit.
Maybe take it off to X speed.
Let's breathe and go throughthis exercise.
Dr Camden is about to leave.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
So I'm going to lead you in a mindfulness exercise
with some positive affirmations.
So settle into wherever you'resitting right now a chair, your
couch.
You can close your eyes or lookdown with a soft gaze if you're
comfortable, and just start totake some deep breaths.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Just noticing the position of your body on the
chair, your feet on the floor,your hands resting in your lap.
Begin to observe and justnotice your thoughts, body
(24:20):
sensations and emotions.
Don't push them away and don'tcling to them, Just let them
come and go.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
When a feeling or thought arises, just acknowledge
it non-judgmentally.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
And as you sit there, breathing deeply, repeat some
of these positive affirmationsto yourself.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Positive affirmations are validating statements that
you can reflect on in momentswhen you need confidence and
they can be made into aspiritual practice of breath
prayers as you inhale on thefirst half of the phrase and
inhale on the first half of thephrase and exhale on the second
half of the phrase, making thisa conversation with God.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
So inhale my body is good.
Exhale Inhale body is good.
Exhale Inhale my body and I areone and exhale.
Inhale I am known and loved andexhale.
(25:54):
Inhale.
Inhale I acknowledge my sexualdesires and exhale.
Inhale I can enjoy sensualitywithout shame and exhale.
(26:29):
Inhale I honor my sexuality andexhale.
Inhale God you created me.
And exhale as a sexual being.
(26:54):
Inhale I am made.
Exhale in God's image.
Inhale my sexuality.
Exhale is a gift from God, is agift from God.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
So write down which ones of those resonate with you
and meditate on them in thefuture, when you are feeling
shame and you need to remindyourself that your sexuality is
good and a gift from God andthat you, together with God, can
choose how to steward it in away that honors him and honors
yourself.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Thank you, Dr Camden.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Yeah, you're welcome.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
That was very regulating.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Good, well, that was nice to do.
I haven't gotten to do one ofthose on a podcast.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
For you personally what is your favorite thing
about recovering from purityculture?
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Well, of course, it's connecting with other what I
call purity culture survivors.
It's connecting with otherpeople and knowing that we're
not alone and knowing that we'renot the only one, and that has
just been the biggest antidoteto shame.
Like I said, just being able tomeet, talk, speak with,
interact with, write to you,know all of all of that with
(28:15):
other people who experiencedthis, and some in many, many and
worse ways than I did.
It's so validating and healing.
Yeah, I think it is for them asit is for me, and just knowing
that I can, the journey thatI've been on personally and
professionally, that God can usethat to help others on their
journey of recovery, is justyeah, it's really validating.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Thank you so much for speaking with us.
And, gentlemen, if you want toget a copy of Recovering from
Purity Culture by Dr CamdenMorganti, Go down to the show
notes and you'll see a link tobuy the book.
You can also learn more atdrcamdencom.
Always remember you are God'sbeloved son.
(29:03):
In you he is well-pleased.
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