June 16, 2025 • 40 mins
When one person has a history of same-sex attraction and another has a history of relying on porn, how is a Christ-centered marriage possible? Christy and Mark Summers tell their incredible story, both individually and as a couple.
Christy and Mark Summers are the co-founders of Redeemed Seasons Ministries, where they care for and support Christian men and women seeking healing and wholeness through Jesus in their relationships, their identity, and their sexuality. Christy and Mark offer one-on-one and couple-to-couple soul care and spiritual direction. They also facilitate support groups for family and friends of LGBTQ-identified loved ones. Learn more at redeemedseasons.org
Resources from Redeemed Seasons:
- Rescue & Restoring (free 12-week healing & discipleship course)
- At My Right Hand (support group for family & friends of LGBTQ loved ones)
- Spiritual Direction (request an appointment)
Other ministries mentioned in this episode:
Take the Husband Material Journey...
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- Step 2: Join the private Husband Material Community
- Step 3: Take the free mini-course: How To Outgrow Porn
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Thanks for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Thanks for listening to myinterview with Mark and Christy
(00:22):
Summers.
They have a beautiful story,both individually and as a
couple, of healing and freedomand transformation.
You're going to hear aboutsame-sex attraction, pornography
, jesus, and if you have felthopeless, you're going to get
some new hope.
Enjoy the episode.
Today.
I am thrilled to introduce youall to Mark and Christy Summers,
(00:43):
who are the founders ofRedeemed Season, where they help
men and women who arestruggling with sexual and
relational brokenness, andChristy also works for Restored
Hope Network.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Our delight.
You are so welcome.
We are delighted to be here,truly.
Thanks for asking us.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
You're welcome.
You both have a very uniquestory as individuals and as a
couple.
Where should we begin?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Well, just to kind of give you a nutshell version of
my story, I started strugglingwith same-sex attraction and
actually was in a homosexualrelationship from when I was 15
until I was about 30 years old.
From when I was 15 until I wasabout 30 years old, it was not
something that I desired formyself, not something that I
(01:27):
ever dreamt of for myself.
It was actually a surprise tome when I found that I was
attracted to women, and therewas actually one girl in
particular.
We were very good friends.
The friendship evolved into aphysical and emotionally
dependent relationship.
I really, really struggled withit.
(01:48):
I was very tormented.
I was a nominal Christian then,but I wasn't following Jesus.
I didn't know Jesus.
He wasn't Lord of my life.
At that point I kept thinking Iwas going to grow out of it.
Quite honestly, I thought, well, the man of my dreams will come
along and then I'll startdating him and fall in love with
(02:09):
him and I won't have thesefeelings anymore.
And that wasn't how it workedfor me.
You know it was so hard, drew,because it was like there was a
huge deficit in my soul thatneeded maternal care, that
needed maternal love.
And it wasn't until later on inmy healing journey with the
Lord that I realized that's whatthe hole was and that was what
(02:33):
I really needed and that's why Iwas so drawn to the touch and
to the care of other women.
Now I know that that isn't thesame story for everyone everyone
who struggles in this area butthat was a huge part of my story
.
I kind of got to the end ofmyself and thought, well, I'm
going to be alone for the restof my life because I can't be
(02:54):
with women, because I alwaysstruggle with them, and then I
can't be with men because Ididn't want to be disingenuous
and start a relationship, amarriage relationship, with a
man, say, and draw him intosomething that wasn't real.
And just to try and make myselffeel normal, act normal, look
(03:16):
normal, be normal, all thosethings when that wasn't my heart
reality or my soul reality.
I tried everything on my own.
I tried having sexualrelationships with men.
I tried white knuckling it onmy own.
I tried willing myself to notfeel this way anymore.
I tried going to church.
I became a new Christian andborn again Christian.
(03:39):
I got baptized in anevangelical church.
That still didn't make thefeelings go away.
It didn't make the draw or thepull change.
Then I said, ok, well, lord, Ican't do it on my own.
If you are who you say you are,then I'll give you a shot.
So that was the beginning of myhealing journey and I think I
(04:01):
was probably about 31 years oldwhen I made that challenge to
God.
It took me a while.
I was kind of scared, you know,walking into a support group
for people who struggled withhomosexuality wasn't like high
on my list of things that Ireally wanted to do and it was a
long journey.
(04:21):
But I did get desperate enoughto go to a group called Living
Waters where it was a nice longnine-month program of intensive
weekly connecting with the group, with very solid leaders who
taught me about Jesus, whotaught me about God's design for
(04:45):
sexuality, who walked with me.
And I went through that programnumerous times and you know it
wasn't really until probably mythird time.
Through that I realized I'mseeking the wrong thing here.
I'm seeking healing and notJesus.
(05:08):
So my true transformationstarted when I realized I just
need to seek Jesus and in myrelationship with him and
seeking him and not beingfixated on how are you going to
heal me, jesus, but how?
How are we going to be together?
(05:31):
How are we going to be inrelationship?
And honestly, lord, I know thatI have to surrender everything
to you, and it was at that pointin seeking relationship with
him, when I surrenderedeverything to him and stopped
holding on to the little thingsthat I thought I needed and the
(05:52):
things that I desired, and evensacrificed my desires to him,
that he really started to dosome deep healing in my life.
Yeah, so that's kind of thenutshell version in my life.
Yeah, so that's kind of thenutshell version.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Thank you so much for your vulnerability, because
when I hear some people say Iwant healing, underneath that is
often a self-hatred, yes, or adesire to be fixed or viewing
myself as a problem or defective.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
It truly was.
I saw myself as defective, andtoo much for people,
relationally too much for women,relationally too much for men
because I didn't even know howto connect with men emotionally.
But I had to learn all of thosethings.
There was a lot of self-hatred,self-rejection, that I had to
(06:47):
take those things to the Lordand go.
Why, why, Father, why do I hatemyself?
Well, shame, of course, hugeShame, because of how I'd been
acting, how I'd been living.
Shame because I couldn't changemyself, I didn't have the power
to change myself.
(07:08):
That was hugely impactfulbecause it keeps us in that
cycle.
But below all of that, theself-hatred was even deeper
because it did stem from and Idon't want to say anything
negative about my mother,because there has been a lot of
redemption there.
She is now with Jesus and Ilove her truly.
(07:30):
She loved me the best she could, but it wasn't adequate for
what my needs were and so Ididn't see myself as valuable to
her.
And if my mom didn't see me assomebody that she wanted to
spend time with, I mean, thatwas my perception.
(07:53):
I'm sure that wasn't her truth,but that was my perception as a
little one that I wasn't ofvalue to her.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Yeah, and that's what stays with us, that's what we
carry in our bodies, regardlessof how well our parents loved us
.
We experience our feelings thatdon't always match up with that
, and that's okay.
Thank you for validating bothsides of that story, because
often people are caught in thetension of trying to figure out
(08:29):
why am I feeling this way, whyam I struggling with these
behaviors, even when I have apositive view of my parents?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
You're very welcome.
You're very welcome.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
And it seems like you started to experience the love
of God and the love of Jesusmore fully.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
A large part of why I was able to embrace Father God
was because my earthly fatherwas a very loving man.
He was an emotionally tenderman and he did see me.
He did spend time with me.
Spend time with me, he did carefor those places in my heart.
And while that was wonderfuland it was an amazing gift to me
, especially when I started tolearn more about the Father, the
(09:16):
Father, our Abba Father, andHis heart of love for me, it
also kind of confused me becausewhat that did to me is that,
okay, my father loves me, I'llspend time with my father.
Now I can get attention from mydad.
Well, the things that he likedto do were sports and athletics
(09:40):
and watching NASCAR and playingbaseball, and watching NASCAR
and playing baseball.
And so I start going in thebackyard when he would get home
from work and shooting hoops,and so I started to do the very
more, more masculine type thingsthat that weren't.
Honestly, I was very gifted andvery good at those things and I
(10:01):
enjoyed them, but my heart wascrying out to.
I wanted to learn how to cook.
It seems silly and very, verymasculine, feminine, you know,
stereotypical and all that, butI really wanted to learn how to
cook and to this day, it's stillsomething that I don't really
enjoy doing is I feel veryinsecure in the kitchen.
(10:24):
Now, my mother did like to bake, however, and she did pass on
to me her love for baking, so Ihold on to that as a very dear
thing, and I will bake cookiesand pies and I love to do that.
I love to do that for my familyand friends, and every time I
do that, it is a way that Ibonded with my mother, so you
(10:47):
know, but there were still biggaps there.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
This is great.
I want to hear Mark's story andthen more of life for you as a
couple.
So let's hear the other side ofthe story.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Very different from Christy's story.
So I grew up in a home that wasnot nominally Christian.
We were pretty active in thechurch.
I was baptized at the age ofnine but in my late teens turned
my back on the church andturned my back on Jesus and said
I want nothing to do with it,that's not for me, that's for
(11:22):
other people.
And I was about 15 years intomy working career and my
marriage when things started togo sideways.
My first wife began toexperience some pretty dramatic
mental health issues and thosesort of devolved into some
(11:44):
pretty dramatic substance abuseissues, multiple suicide
attempts.
We were really doing a deathspiral into the dirt.
So, out of desperation, godhappened to have placed me in a
place.
I had three young men workingfor me who were on fire for
Jesus, three young men workingfor me who were on fire for
(12:08):
Jesus.
So I went into one of them oneday and said do you have
anything that talks about whyChristianity is any more or less
valid than any other religionthat's out there in the world?
And he reached up on his deskand pulled out a copy of the
Case for Christ and handed it tome and I read that I devoured
that over the course of about 48hours and decided, oops, I've
(12:29):
made a mistake, I need to goback to church and back to God.
And at the time when I lookback on it, my motivation was
very much okay, this is how I'mgoing to fix my family, god's
going to fix this for me.
Okay, this is how I'm going tofix my family, god's going to
fix this for me.
So I stepped into a churchcontext that was very biblical,
(12:52):
very Bible-based it was aCalvary Chapel church and just
made my list of check boxes forbeing a good Christian man and
started checking off the checkboxes as best I could and, as
you can imagine, as I waited formy new Savior to fix everything
, things didn't necessarily getfixed.
In fact, they got worse.
And so I worked at being abetter Christian and a better
(13:17):
Christian and had some painfulissues within the church where
people told me that she wasn'tgetting better because I wasn't
praying enough or wasn't prayingright or wasn't doing the right
things.
And finally, at some point, Ivery distinctly remember a night
out on the front porch, thefront deck of my house, saying
(13:38):
to God if you're not going tofix this, if you aren't going to
step in and help.
Then you go to your corner andI'll go to my corner and I'll
just do this on my own.
And so that was about in 2006.
In 2007, things got so bad thatI felt like God was telling me
you need to take your son andyou need to get out because the
(13:59):
ship's going down and you've gotto save yourself and your son.
So I did and we went throughthe divorce process.
Just as the divorce was closingup.
As things were getting finished, that's when I met Christy and
I was pretty beaten, beaten up,pretty battered and bruised.
(14:19):
I didn't understand why Godhadn't done the things that I
had asked him to do.
I was not one who had anyunderstanding at all of what it
meant to have a relationshipwith Jesus.
That was like.
Those were nonsensical words tome.
I could not understand whatthey meant.
I knew what I was supposed todo and not supposed to do and,
(14:43):
like any human being, I wassomewhat successful at it and
somewhat unsuccessful at it, butI was doing what you know what
things were supposed to looklike, and things didn't get
fixed.
But in my relationship withChristy, as I got to know her,
she had a good, strong, solidrelationship with Jesus.
(15:03):
So we started talking aboutwhat that looked like and what
that meant, and we eventuallygot married.
We got married in November of2008.
About a year after we married,she was ready to get back into
ministry She'd taken a year offfrom doing ministry work, was
(15:25):
ready to get back into ministry.
She'd taken a year off fromdoing ministry work.
She was a leader in the LivingWaters program up in the Seattle
area.
I decided well, you know, itwould be a good idea for me to
go through it, just because thatwould help me understand better
her own story.
She'd been very transparentwith me about her own story and
about her experiences withsame-sex attraction and her
(15:46):
former relationships in waysthat I could not understand or
explain.
The Holy Spirit had told meit's going to be okay, even
though this is a background thatyou have no capacity to
understand or to identify with.
It's going to be okay, justwalk with me and we'll get
(16:07):
through this.
And so I just had a sense ofpeace about it, and so that's
what we did.
So when she went back intoleadership at Living Waters, I
decided to go through the.
I went through the program tounderstand her better.
It was in that context that Godopened my eyes for the first
time to my own brokenness.
(16:28):
I had never heard anythingabout story or any of that stuff
, and he opened my eyes to myown brokenness and that was
profoundly life-changing.
I had a problem withpornography and that was
profoundly life changing.
I had a problem withpornography and I had been
(16:52):
exposed to it as a boy, in myearly teens, and it had been
really a part of my strategy forsort of self-care and
self-soothing for you know,really my whole growing up life,
especially once I got tocollege and I didn't have any
regulating factors around mychoices or the things that were
in my environment.
I had my first sort of genuinepersonal experience with healing
(17:18):
, with how the Lord met me inthat space of reliance upon
pornography, because what he didto me in my journey was and
this I can only explain this asa Holy Spirit intervention is
that he opened my eyes in a waywhere, when I looked at any
(17:41):
material that was pornographic,all I could see was pain.
All I could see was thevictimization, the exploitation,
the bondage of the people whowere in it.
And I mean I was blessed tohave, in an instant the draw of
(18:04):
pornography taken away from me.
It's like he opened my eyesthat every person there was a
son or a daughter of the MostHigh was an image bearer, was
somebody's sister, somebody'sdaughter.
It had a profound impact on meand I think in part he knew he
(18:26):
had me on a path of movingtoward ministry and we needed to
get this taken care of quickly.
This could not be a 10-yearhealing journey out of
pornography if I was going tostep into the spaces and places
that he had for me.
It was also, in God's wisdom, avery profound bonding
experience for me and Christy,because in the context of going
(18:49):
through living waters, I had toface that that was part of my
story and I had to share it withher.
I didn't share it with youbefore we were married, so I had
to share that with her andthere was some shame in that,
just in the fact that she hadbeen so transparent with me and
that I wasn't necessarily thattransparent with her as we got
to know one another.
But my mindset at the time wasoh, I've got this under control.
(19:12):
I'm not.
You know, I'm not doing this,so it's really no longer a
factor, but the beauty of whatGod did was he showed me that
Christy could be a partner forme in my walk out of it and
became a partner, not anaccountability partner as in oh
(19:33):
gosh I don't want to have totell her that I did wrong, you
know sort of thing but more in asupport partner, in a support
partner, and that thentransferred over into other
spaces in her life where sheended up in a couple of
different uncomfortablerelational spaces and we had
begun to build this pattern ofhelping one another out in those
(19:56):
kinds of struggles.
And so she could bring thosethings to me and thankfully I
received them and handled themwell and was able to walk out
genuinely being a partner to herin those spaces, in the way
that she was a partner to mewhen I was trying to get past
things that I had brought intothe marriage.
So it's been an amazing journey, not one that either one of us
(20:22):
expected.
No, you know, we got marriedlate in life.
You were 47.
47.
I was 51.
I was married to my first wife29 years and you know, with the
way that that crashed and burned, I at the time figured well,
I'm done with relationships forthe rest of my life Nobody's
(20:44):
going to be interested in.
You know, picking me up, I was,she was, so it was really quite
the journey.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
It was a good one yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
So we spent the last 15 years then paying attention
to what God has called us to doin the spaces of ministry.
We just really feel like weboth we bring very different
stories into the ministry space,but complementary stories, and
we've got a capacity tounderstand the journey of a lot
(21:19):
of folks and be able to walkwith them in that space.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
When Mark revealed to me his struggle in the past and
how that had been andeverything, my immediate
reaction was just compassion forhim, and because I have
received so much grace andcompassion in my own life and my
(21:44):
own healing journey, it waseasy to extend that to Mark.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
We were in very, very different spaces with the Lord
when we met and we got marriedand we talked about that.
Biggest trepidations was I feltlike I was so far behind in
terms of developing arelationship with Jesus than
(22:09):
Christi was.
I felt almost remedial in termsof my spiritual walk and
wondered if that would be afrustration or a dissatisfaction
for her.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, the Lord assured me in the beginning,
when Mark and I were courting,that Mark was on a journey with
God.
He wasn't stuck, he was seekingmore.
He was asking questions.
He assured me that he believedin Jesus, which I knew he did.
I could tell he did, but hewanted to know more and learn
(22:38):
more.
And so the Lord just assured mehe doesn't have to be your more
advanced than you spiritualhead.
That's not the way God works.
God seeks the heart and Godknew Mark's heart and he assured
me of Mark's heart.
That was seeking him and thatwas enough, because God does the
(23:03):
work.
We don't do it, he does it.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Thanks be to God.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
How beautiful that you both got to go through the
Living Waters program, and Ilove the way that you've been
vulnerable with each other sothat you can support each other
and it's not just one way.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Yeah, definitely a gift.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
There are so many men in husband material who find
themselves experiencing same-sexattraction in marriage or
wondering if marriage is evenpossible for them, having a lot
of inner conflict about that.
What are some of the uniquechallenges of being married with
(23:46):
your particular stories?
Speaker 2 (23:48):
It is very different for Mark than it is for me
because our stories are sounique and us coming together.
For me, the goal in my healingjourney, as I said, my goal was
the healing.
Then my goal changed to knowingJesus and finding what is it,
jesus?
(24:08):
What is your will for my life?
So there was a time where I hadto sacrifice everything that I
desired and that I wanted andthat I saw for myself, and part
of that was okay.
Well, I will have arrived onceI'm attracted to men and get
married, and I had to let thatgo.
(24:29):
That couldn't be the goalBecause I had no idea what Jesus
had in store for me and thatwas a very difficult thing to do
.
That is a very difficult thingto surrender.
But I grew in my relationshipwith Jesus to the point where I
knew that what he had for me wasgoing to be the best for me,
(24:53):
even if I never got married,even if my life was going to be
as a single woman loving peoplethe way he's calling me to love
people.
Whether it was going to be as asingle woman loving people the
way he's calling me to lovepeople, whether it was going to
be fostering children orembracing my grand nephews or
whatever he had for me,continuing working in ministry
(25:16):
and caring for others who havethe same struggle.
So I just felt like that's animportant thing to say, because
the goal wasn't marriage when Ieventually got to where I was
able to surrender everything andit wasn't okay, lord, I'm going
to surrender all of thesethings to you so you'll give it
back to me.
It had to be a true surrender.
It had to be okay.
(25:38):
I'm going to give these thingsup and really have my hands open
to receive what you have for me, not just today, but throughout
the next year, throughout thenext decade, through the rest of
my life.
And in that place of completesurrender is when I finally I
really felt the peace of theLord.
Lord.
Then, god in his grace, mercy,knowing the true desires of my
(26:04):
heart better than I know myself,my truest desire was him.
And once that place was reallymet in relationship, then he
started adding things.
And I call my marriage to Marka cherry on the top of a really,
really wonderful Sunday, youknow, and that's what it's like,
(26:29):
the bonus, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
So there's this one theme of same sex attraction and
another theme of pornography,and for some guys they're
experiencing one or the other orboth pornography, and for some
guys they're experiencing one orthe other or both.
And I feel like you have such agreat opportunity to speak hope
and life into those situationsthere's this sense, for whatever
(26:54):
reason, that somehow, um,same-sex attraction it's some
sort of super attraction.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Same-sex attraction it's some sort of super
attraction.
It's like the immovable objector the mountain that can't be
moved.
And I think one of the thingsthat the Lord laid on me very
early in my relationship withChristy is that it's attraction.
Same-sex attraction is just anattraction.
It's no different from yourattraction to an attractive,
(27:31):
good-looking woman.
The issue is, what do you dowith it?
And so if your wife comes toyou and says, oh, I found my,
you know, or you suspect thatyour wife is attracted to
another woman, feel like there'ssomething like that going on.
That's no different than if shewas attracted to another man.
(27:53):
It's just an attraction.
It is a thing that we workthrough in the context of
marriage.
All men struggle, all womenstruggle with oh, there are
other attractive bodies andpersons out there and I just
need to process it as oh, I'mattracted to that person.
Move on.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Nothing's going to happen here Next topic yes.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Yeah, but it has so much more power and energy when
fear and shame start to takecontrol.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
As I entered into marriage, the question wasn't at
all, and never has been, towhom or to what is Christy
attracted?
The question is does she loveme?
Does she love me, and how doesshe walk out that love toward me
?
How is that love manifested?
Is it manifested in the ways,the healthy ways that I would
(28:53):
desire to be loved?
And if it is, then we're good.
Then we're good In the same waythat the fact that I find women
attractive.
That's an unhealthymanifestation.
If I'm looking at pornography,it's a very healthy
manifestation.
When I'm looking at my wife andI'm attracted to her, it really
(29:14):
does.
I don't want to oversimplify it, but it really does come down
to.
I'm going to choose.
I have the power to choose whatI'm going to do with those
feelings and how I'm going towalk them out.
In the same way that we dealwith same-sex attraction as some
sort of super attraction, Ihave to tell you, with the men
(29:34):
that I've walked with inpornography struggles, we men
and women tend to viewpornography temptations as some
sort of super temptation.
Oh, it's its own entity.
I'm not just tempted, it's porn.
I'm not just tempted, it's porn, and that's a super temptation
that has more power over me thananything else in my life, and
(30:00):
it doesn't have to.
It doesn't, and that is part ofwhy riffing off of what Christy
said that is part of why therelationship with Jesus is so,
so important.
It's because that relationshiptakes these things that the
world says are super sins, orsuper attractions or super
(30:22):
temptation, and puts them intoperspective.
He's what matters.
He comes first and all the restof it is secondary Good
cherries on the top, but stillsecondary.
That's right, yeah, you know.
The other thing I think that isreally important from a hope
(30:42):
standpoint, drew, is it's nevertoo late.
I've had men say you know, I'm45 and I'm struggling with this.
Yeah, you're 45 and you'restruggling with this, but guess
what?
You could be 46 and I'mstruggling with this.
Yeah, you're 45 and you'restruggling with this, but guess
what?
You could be 46 and no longerstruggling with it.
And then, how many years offreedom do you have ahead of you
?
Right?
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Yeah, amen, christy, were you going to say something?
Speaker 2 (31:07):
I was.
I was going to talk about howthe accountability between the
two of us is such a huge giftBecause me having a struggle, a
relational temptation after wegot married, and that did happen
, but I didn't.
And you said something too.
(31:28):
It's like oh, it has this powerand this shame and it's a super
, super struggle.
Well, when I didn't sit on it,as soon as I realized, oh gosh,
there's something here thatdoesn't feel right, I am
thinking about this person toomuch.
They're not in the right spacein my heart right now, I didn't
(31:50):
hold it.
I brought it to Mark.
And I didn't freak out and hedidn't freak out and basically
we shone the light of Jesus onit and took it out of the
darkness.
You keep it in the darkness, itfesters and it starts to have
more and more hold over you,right?
Yes, so you know, and I trustmy husband to hold those things
(32:14):
with me, as he trusts me to holdhis struggles, and we don't do
it perfectly, but we do do it.
You know, I don't want to givepeople the illusion that that we
have it all together and thatyou know that it's not hard, and
it is hard.
It always feels like a risk tohave to bring something that we
(32:37):
are struggling with.
That's a temptation, but thething is that temptation isn't
sin.
It's a temptation, right?
So let's take it to those wholove us before it becomes a sin.
Let's let Jesus do the work,let's let our loved ones walk
(32:58):
with us.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Good stuff.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Absolutely.
God does such good work.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
So good.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, I am so grateful.
I am grateful to be continuallybeing worked on and you know I
haven't struggled in this areathe same sex attraction for many
, many years now, many years,and when it, when it did come up
, it was dealt with right awayand it was gone.
But the beauty of it was drewthat those, one of those
(33:28):
relationships was pruned and theother relationship was blessed,
was redeemed, and it wasredeemed in my heart.
It wasn't a mutual strugglebetween myself and another woman
, it was all within me, but theLord blessed that.
And now I have an understandingof what true same-sex intimacy
(33:51):
is.
Right, because we were whattrue same-sex intimacy is.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Right, because we were created for same-sex
intimacy.
The Bible celebratesbrotherhood and sisterhood and
the bonds of friendship.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Because I have the ability now to have same-sex
friends without me warping it,without the enemy getting in and
warping it, because Iunderstand and I've taken those
disordered desires, if you will,the lies that I was told and
the shame, and haverelationships with women that
(34:25):
are, are the way god meant andare so much more intimate in an
emotional heart level than anyof the sexual relationships I
(34:46):
ever had, so much more edifying,um, they're just beautiful,
beautiful gifts from God andthere's no shame.
They're rich and there's noshame.
Yeah.
And the other thing with thesame sex attraction thing is
Mark understands because of mybrokenness inside and the places
(35:07):
that I have struggled in therewill always be scarring there.
The Lord has healed and filledthose places up, but there's
always a tenderness on thosescars.
So Mark understands howimportant it is for me to have
time with my female friends,especially the ones that the
Lord has given to me in a deep,intimate way, and he doesn't
(35:29):
feel threatened.
Actually, I'm a better wife forhim when I have spent time with
certain friends.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Yeah, it's a big mistake to think, as a husband
or a wife, that you can be theall in all for your other.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
You can't, you just can't.
You need to be other peopleinvolved and, of course, god
needs to be at the top of thelist, at the front of the line,
when it comes to those.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
It is such a gift to witness your health and strength
as a couple.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
God's done a lot of work and we just keep agreeing
with him and saying, OK, yeah,it's going to be hard, but it's
so worth it.
It's going to be hard, but it'sso worth it.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
One of the things that I do want to share, just
briefly a perspective on, drewis for the men and women that
you work with who struggle withpornography.
I often hear men describebecause I work mostly with men.
Men describe their desire isjust for the temptation to go
(36:32):
away.
I want the draw to just go away, and the reality is is that it
never goes away.
What happens instead isactually more powerful, and that
is that it just becomes a thingthat you don't do.
I get exposed to something, or Ifeel you know the enemy tries
to put something in front of methat seeks to draw me back in
(36:56):
there.
My response at the heart levelis oh, that's just not something
I do.
I don't do that anymore.
It's unrealistic in our currentworld to think that we can
insulate ourselves from that.
Sure, there's choices that wemake that you know that.
Or we can consciously keepourselves from being exposed to
something when we know that it'sthere.
(37:17):
But the reality is is that theenemy is always going to try to
tempt us.
It's just that the temptationloses its power when it becomes
just.
This is not a thing that I do.
It has no power over me, youknow, instead of being a
spotlight.
It's not even a blip on theradar screen.
Yeah, yeah, go away.
You know that's the space thatwe aspire to get to, and that's
(37:38):
where I think the Holy Spiritreally has the power to bring us
is, into that place where itjust has no call on our
attention anymore.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
It becomes like a gnat.
It's a gnat, it's just a littlegnat war, it becomes like a
gnat.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
It's a gnat, it's just a little gnat.
Yeah Amen.
That's much of what we talkabout at Husband Material
getting to the place where pornloses its power.
Mark and Christy, what is yourfavorite thing about freedom and
healing?
Speaker 3 (38:06):
My favorite thing about freedom and healing is
that I get to share it withothers.
It's part of how God calls meto love others, and it gives him
glory because I haven't doneany of this.
It's all about God, and so itbrings the light of Jesus into
the lives of other people, andthat's where I experience.
My greatest joy is just ingetting to work with men who are
(38:29):
on the same kinds of roads thatI was on and I get to say, ah,
let me walk with you a while.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Yeah, yeah, I agree with what Mark said, because
that is the most important thing.
But layered underneath that iswalking and living a life that I
never thought was possible forme.
For decades I did not think mylife was possible for me, and
(38:56):
just living a shame-free,guilt-free life where I'm free
to love and be loved is just astupendous gift.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
It doesn't get any better than that I'm getting
goosebumps right now thinkingabout it.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
I mean, the bondage was so great.
So now there hasn't beenbondage for years and I am just
beyond grateful to my creatorfor the freedom and healing that
he's given to me through Jesusand being able to pass that on.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Thank you so much for sharing.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Thank you for having us here.
Thanks for inviting us.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
You're welcome, guys.
If you would like to connectwith Mark and Christy, go down
to the links in the show notesand you can learn more about
their ministry and the spiritualdirection that they offer, and
you can also find links toRestored Hope Network and the
Living Waters program.
Thank you so much for listeningand always remember you are
God's beloved son.
In you he is well-pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Thanks for listening to myinterview with Mark and Christy
(00:22):
Summers.
They have a beautiful story,both individually and as a
couple, of healing and freedomand transformation.
You're going to hear aboutsame-sex attraction, pornography
, jesus, and if you have felthopeless, you're going to get
some new hope.
Enjoy the episode.
Today.
I am thrilled to introduce youall to Mark and Christy Summers,
(00:43):
who are the founders ofRedeemed Season, where they help
men and women who arestruggling with sexual and
relational brokenness, andChristy also works for Restored
Hope Network.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Our delight.
You are so welcome.
We are delighted to be here,truly.
Thanks for asking us.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
You're welcome.
You both have a very uniquestory as individuals and as a
couple.
Where should we begin?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Well, just to kind of give you a nutshell version of
my story, I started strugglingwith same-sex attraction and
actually was in a homosexualrelationship from when I was 15
until I was about 30 years old.
From when I was 15 until I wasabout 30 years old, it was not
something that I desired formyself, not something that I
(01:27):
ever dreamt of for myself.
It was actually a surprise tome when I found that I was
attracted to women, and therewas actually one girl in
particular.
We were very good friends.
The friendship evolved into aphysical and emotionally
dependent relationship.
I really, really struggled withit.
(01:48):
I was very tormented.
I was a nominal Christian then,but I wasn't following Jesus.
I didn't know Jesus.
He wasn't Lord of my life.
At that point I kept thinking Iwas going to grow out of it.
Quite honestly, I thought, well, the man of my dreams will come
along and then I'll startdating him and fall in love with
(02:09):
him and I won't have thesefeelings anymore.
And that wasn't how it workedfor me.
You know it was so hard, drew,because it was like there was a
huge deficit in my soul thatneeded maternal care, that
needed maternal love.
And it wasn't until later on inmy healing journey with the
Lord that I realized that's whatthe hole was and that was what
(02:33):
I really needed and that's why Iwas so drawn to the touch and
to the care of other women.
Now I know that that isn't thesame story for everyone everyone
who struggles in this area butthat was a huge part of my story
.
I kind of got to the end ofmyself and thought, well, I'm
going to be alone for the restof my life because I can't be
(02:54):
with women, because I alwaysstruggle with them, and then I
can't be with men because Ididn't want to be disingenuous
and start a relationship, amarriage relationship, with a
man, say, and draw him intosomething that wasn't real.
And just to try and make myselffeel normal, act normal, look
(03:16):
normal, be normal, all thosethings when that wasn't my heart
reality or my soul reality.
I tried everything on my own.
I tried having sexualrelationships with men.
I tried white knuckling it onmy own.
I tried willing myself to notfeel this way anymore.
I tried going to church.
I became a new Christian andborn again Christian.
(03:39):
I got baptized in anevangelical church.
That still didn't make thefeelings go away.
It didn't make the draw or thepull change.
Then I said, ok, well, lord, Ican't do it on my own.
If you are who you say you are,then I'll give you a shot.
So that was the beginning of myhealing journey and I think I
(04:01):
was probably about 31 years oldwhen I made that challenge to
God.
It took me a while.
I was kind of scared, you know,walking into a support group
for people who struggled withhomosexuality wasn't like high
on my list of things that Ireally wanted to do and it was a
long journey.
(04:21):
But I did get desperate enoughto go to a group called Living
Waters where it was a nice longnine-month program of intensive
weekly connecting with the group, with very solid leaders who
taught me about Jesus, whotaught me about God's design for
(04:45):
sexuality, who walked with me.
And I went through that programnumerous times and you know it
wasn't really until probably mythird time.
Through that I realized I'mseeking the wrong thing here.
I'm seeking healing and notJesus.
(05:08):
So my true transformationstarted when I realized I just
need to seek Jesus and in myrelationship with him and
seeking him and not beingfixated on how are you going to
heal me, jesus, but how?
How are we going to be together?
(05:31):
How are we going to be inrelationship?
And honestly, lord, I know thatI have to surrender everything
to you, and it was at that pointin seeking relationship with
him, when I surrenderedeverything to him and stopped
holding on to the little thingsthat I thought I needed and the
(05:52):
things that I desired, and evensacrificed my desires to him,
that he really started to dosome deep healing in my life.
Yeah, so that's kind of thenutshell version in my life.
Yeah, so that's kind of thenutshell version.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Thank you so much for your vulnerability, because
when I hear some people say Iwant healing, underneath that is
often a self-hatred, yes, or adesire to be fixed or viewing
myself as a problem or defective.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
It truly was.
I saw myself as defective, andtoo much for people,
relationally too much for women,relationally too much for men
because I didn't even know howto connect with men emotionally.
But I had to learn all of thosethings.
There was a lot of self-hatred,self-rejection, that I had to
(06:47):
take those things to the Lordand go.
Why, why, Father, why do I hatemyself?
Well, shame, of course, hugeShame, because of how I'd been
acting, how I'd been living.
Shame because I couldn't changemyself, I didn't have the power
to change myself.
(07:08):
That was hugely impactfulbecause it keeps us in that
cycle.
But below all of that, theself-hatred was even deeper
because it did stem from and Idon't want to say anything
negative about my mother,because there has been a lot of
redemption there.
She is now with Jesus and Ilove her truly.
(07:30):
She loved me the best she could, but it wasn't adequate for
what my needs were and so Ididn't see myself as valuable to
her.
And if my mom didn't see me assomebody that she wanted to
spend time with, I mean, thatwas my perception.
(07:53):
I'm sure that wasn't her truth,but that was my perception as a
little one that I wasn't ofvalue to her.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Yeah, and that's what stays with us, that's what we
carry in our bodies, regardlessof how well our parents loved us
.
We experience our feelings thatdon't always match up with that
, and that's okay.
Thank you for validating bothsides of that story, because
often people are caught in thetension of trying to figure out
(08:29):
why am I feeling this way, whyam I struggling with these
behaviors, even when I have apositive view of my parents?
Speaker 2 (08:35):
You're very welcome.
You're very welcome.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
And it seems like you started to experience the love
of God and the love of Jesusmore fully.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
A large part of why I was able to embrace Father God
was because my earthly fatherwas a very loving man.
He was an emotionally tenderman and he did see me.
He did spend time with me.
Spend time with me, he did carefor those places in my heart.
And while that was wonderfuland it was an amazing gift to me
, especially when I started tolearn more about the Father, the
(09:16):
Father, our Abba Father, andHis heart of love for me, it
also kind of confused me becausewhat that did to me is that,
okay, my father loves me, I'llspend time with my father.
Now I can get attention from mydad.
Well, the things that he likedto do were sports and athletics
(09:40):
and watching NASCAR and playingbaseball, and watching NASCAR
and playing baseball.
And so I start going in thebackyard when he would get home
from work and shooting hoops,and so I started to do the very
more, more masculine type thingsthat that weren't.
Honestly, I was very gifted andvery good at those things and I
(10:01):
enjoyed them, but my heart wascrying out to.
I wanted to learn how to cook.
It seems silly and very, verymasculine, feminine, you know,
stereotypical and all that, butI really wanted to learn how to
cook and to this day, it's stillsomething that I don't really
enjoy doing is I feel veryinsecure in the kitchen.
(10:24):
Now, my mother did like to bake, however, and she did pass on
to me her love for baking, so Ihold on to that as a very dear
thing, and I will bake cookiesand pies and I love to do that.
I love to do that for my familyand friends, and every time I
do that, it is a way that Ibonded with my mother, so you
(10:47):
know, but there were still biggaps there.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
This is great.
I want to hear Mark's story andthen more of life for you as a
couple.
So let's hear the other side ofthe story.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Very different from Christy's story.
So I grew up in a home that wasnot nominally Christian.
We were pretty active in thechurch.
I was baptized at the age ofnine but in my late teens turned
my back on the church andturned my back on Jesus and said
I want nothing to do with it,that's not for me, that's for
(11:22):
other people.
And I was about 15 years intomy working career and my
marriage when things started togo sideways.
My first wife began toexperience some pretty dramatic
mental health issues and thosesort of devolved into some
(11:44):
pretty dramatic substance abuseissues, multiple suicide
attempts.
We were really doing a deathspiral into the dirt.
So, out of desperation, godhappened to have placed me in a
place.
I had three young men workingfor me who were on fire for
Jesus, three young men workingfor me who were on fire for
(12:08):
Jesus.
So I went into one of them oneday and said do you have
anything that talks about whyChristianity is any more or less
valid than any other religionthat's out there in the world?
And he reached up on his deskand pulled out a copy of the
Case for Christ and handed it tome and I read that I devoured
that over the course of about 48hours and decided, oops, I've
(12:29):
made a mistake, I need to goback to church and back to God.
And at the time when I lookback on it, my motivation was
very much okay, this is how I'mgoing to fix my family, god's
going to fix this for me.
Okay, this is how I'm going tofix my family, god's going to
fix this for me.
So I stepped into a churchcontext that was very biblical,
(12:52):
very Bible-based it was aCalvary Chapel church and just
made my list of check boxes forbeing a good Christian man and
started checking off the checkboxes as best I could and, as
you can imagine, as I waited formy new Savior to fix everything
, things didn't necessarily getfixed.
In fact, they got worse.
And so I worked at being abetter Christian and a better
(13:17):
Christian and had some painfulissues within the church where
people told me that she wasn'tgetting better because I wasn't
praying enough or wasn't prayingright or wasn't doing the right
things.
And finally, at some point, Ivery distinctly remember a night
out on the front porch, thefront deck of my house, saying
(13:38):
to God if you're not going tofix this, if you aren't going to
step in and help.
Then you go to your corner andI'll go to my corner and I'll
just do this on my own.
And so that was about in 2006.
In 2007, things got so bad thatI felt like God was telling me
you need to take your son andyou need to get out because the
(13:59):
ship's going down and you've gotto save yourself and your son.
So I did and we went throughthe divorce process.
Just as the divorce was closingup.
As things were getting finished, that's when I met Christy and
I was pretty beaten, beaten up,pretty battered and bruised.
(14:19):
I didn't understand why Godhadn't done the things that I
had asked him to do.
I was not one who had anyunderstanding at all of what it
meant to have a relationshipwith Jesus.
That was like.
Those were nonsensical words tome.
I could not understand whatthey meant.
I knew what I was supposed todo and not supposed to do and,
(14:43):
like any human being, I wassomewhat successful at it and
somewhat unsuccessful at it, butI was doing what you know what
things were supposed to looklike, and things didn't get
fixed.
But in my relationship withChristy, as I got to know her,
she had a good, strong, solidrelationship with Jesus.
(15:03):
So we started talking aboutwhat that looked like and what
that meant, and we eventuallygot married.
We got married in November of2008.
About a year after we married,she was ready to get back into
ministry She'd taken a year offfrom doing ministry work, was
(15:25):
ready to get back into ministry.
She'd taken a year off fromdoing ministry work.
She was a leader in the LivingWaters program up in the Seattle
area.
I decided well, you know, itwould be a good idea for me to
go through it, just because thatwould help me understand better
her own story.
She'd been very transparentwith me about her own story and
about her experiences withsame-sex attraction and her
(15:46):
former relationships in waysthat I could not understand or
explain.
The Holy Spirit had told meit's going to be okay, even
though this is a background thatyou have no capacity to
understand or to identify with.
It's going to be okay, justwalk with me and we'll get
(16:07):
through this.
And so I just had a sense ofpeace about it, and so that's
what we did.
So when she went back intoleadership at Living Waters, I
decided to go through the.
I went through the program tounderstand her better.
It was in that context that Godopened my eyes for the first
time to my own brokenness.
(16:28):
I had never heard anythingabout story or any of that stuff
, and he opened my eyes to myown brokenness and that was
profoundly life-changing.
I had a problem withpornography and that was
profoundly life changing.
I had a problem withpornography and I had been
(16:52):
exposed to it as a boy, in myearly teens, and it had been
really a part of my strategy forsort of self-care and
self-soothing for you know,really my whole growing up life,
especially once I got tocollege and I didn't have any
regulating factors around mychoices or the things that were
in my environment.
I had my first sort of genuinepersonal experience with healing
(17:18):
, with how the Lord met me inthat space of reliance upon
pornography, because what he didto me in my journey was and
this I can only explain this asa Holy Spirit intervention is
that he opened my eyes in a waywhere, when I looked at any
(17:41):
material that was pornographic,all I could see was pain.
All I could see was thevictimization, the exploitation,
the bondage of the people whowere in it.
And I mean I was blessed tohave, in an instant the draw of
(18:04):
pornography taken away from me.
It's like he opened my eyesthat every person there was a
son or a daughter of the MostHigh was an image bearer, was
somebody's sister, somebody'sdaughter.
It had a profound impact on meand I think in part he knew he
(18:26):
had me on a path of movingtoward ministry and we needed to
get this taken care of quickly.
This could not be a 10-yearhealing journey out of
pornography if I was going tostep into the spaces and places
that he had for me.
It was also, in God's wisdom, avery profound bonding
experience for me and Christy,because in the context of going
(18:49):
through living waters, I had toface that that was part of my
story and I had to share it withher.
I didn't share it with youbefore we were married, so I had
to share that with her andthere was some shame in that,
just in the fact that she hadbeen so transparent with me and
that I wasn't necessarily thattransparent with her as we got
to know one another.
But my mindset at the time wasoh, I've got this under control.
(19:12):
I'm not.
You know, I'm not doing this,so it's really no longer a
factor, but the beauty of whatGod did was he showed me that
Christy could be a partner forme in my walk out of it and
became a partner, not anaccountability partner as in oh
(19:33):
gosh I don't want to have totell her that I did wrong, you
know sort of thing but more in asupport partner, in a support
partner, and that thentransferred over into other
spaces in her life where sheended up in a couple of
different uncomfortablerelational spaces and we had
begun to build this pattern ofhelping one another out in those
(19:56):
kinds of struggles.
And so she could bring thosethings to me and thankfully I
received them and handled themwell and was able to walk out
genuinely being a partner to herin those spaces, in the way
that she was a partner to mewhen I was trying to get past
things that I had brought intothe marriage.
So it's been an amazing journey, not one that either one of us
(20:22):
expected.
No, you know, we got marriedlate in life.
You were 47.
47.
I was 51.
I was married to my first wife29 years and you know, with the
way that that crashed and burned, I at the time figured well,
I'm done with relationships forthe rest of my life Nobody's
(20:44):
going to be interested in.
You know, picking me up, I was,she was, so it was really quite
the journey.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
It was a good one yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
So we spent the last 15 years then paying attention
to what God has called us to doin the spaces of ministry.
We just really feel like weboth we bring very different
stories into the ministry space,but complementary stories, and
we've got a capacity tounderstand the journey of a lot
(21:19):
of folks and be able to walkwith them in that space.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
When Mark revealed to me his struggle in the past and
how that had been andeverything, my immediate
reaction was just compassion forhim, and because I have
received so much grace andcompassion in my own life and my
(21:44):
own healing journey, it waseasy to extend that to Mark.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
We were in very, very different spaces with the Lord
when we met and we got marriedand we talked about that.
Biggest trepidations was I feltlike I was so far behind in
terms of developing arelationship with Jesus than
(22:09):
Christi was.
I felt almost remedial in termsof my spiritual walk and
wondered if that would be afrustration or a dissatisfaction
for her.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, the Lord assured me in the beginning,
when Mark and I were courting,that Mark was on a journey with
God.
He wasn't stuck, he was seekingmore.
He was asking questions.
He assured me that he believedin Jesus, which I knew he did.
I could tell he did, but hewanted to know more and learn
(22:38):
more.
And so the Lord just assured mehe doesn't have to be your more
advanced than you spiritualhead.
That's not the way God works.
God seeks the heart and Godknew Mark's heart and he assured
me of Mark's heart.
That was seeking him and thatwas enough, because God does the
(23:03):
work.
We don't do it, he does it.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
Thanks be to God.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
How beautiful that you both got to go through the
Living Waters program, and Ilove the way that you've been
vulnerable with each other sothat you can support each other
and it's not just one way.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
Yeah, definitely a gift.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
There are so many men in husband material who find
themselves experiencing same-sexattraction in marriage or
wondering if marriage is evenpossible for them, having a lot
of inner conflict about that.
What are some of the uniquechallenges of being married with
(23:46):
your particular stories?
Speaker 2 (23:48):
It is very different for Mark than it is for me
because our stories are sounique and us coming together.
For me, the goal in my healingjourney, as I said, my goal was
the healing.
Then my goal changed to knowingJesus and finding what is it,
jesus?
(24:08):
What is your will for my life?
So there was a time where I hadto sacrifice everything that I
desired and that I wanted andthat I saw for myself, and part
of that was okay.
Well, I will have arrived onceI'm attracted to men and get
married, and I had to let thatgo.
(24:29):
That couldn't be the goalBecause I had no idea what Jesus
had in store for me and thatwas a very difficult thing to do
.
That is a very difficult thingto surrender.
But I grew in my relationshipwith Jesus to the point where I
knew that what he had for me wasgoing to be the best for me,
(24:53):
even if I never got married,even if my life was going to be
as a single woman loving peoplethe way he's calling me to love
people.
Whether it was going to be as asingle woman loving people the
way he's calling me to lovepeople, whether it was going to
be fostering children orembracing my grand nephews or
whatever he had for me,continuing working in ministry
(25:16):
and caring for others who havethe same struggle.
So I just felt like that's animportant thing to say, because
the goal wasn't marriage when Ieventually got to where I was
able to surrender everything andit wasn't okay, lord, I'm going
to surrender all of thesethings to you so you'll give it
back to me.
It had to be a true surrender.
It had to be okay.
(25:38):
I'm going to give these thingsup and really have my hands open
to receive what you have for me, not just today, but throughout
the next year, throughout thenext decade, through the rest of
my life.
And in that place of completesurrender is when I finally I
really felt the peace of theLord.
Lord.
Then, god in his grace, mercy,knowing the true desires of my
(26:04):
heart better than I know myself,my truest desire was him.
And once that place was reallymet in relationship, then he
started adding things.
And I call my marriage to Marka cherry on the top of a really,
really wonderful Sunday, youknow, and that's what it's like,
(26:29):
the bonus, yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
So there's this one theme of same sex attraction and
another theme of pornography,and for some guys they're
experiencing one or the other orboth pornography, and for some
guys they're experiencing one orthe other or both.
And I feel like you have such agreat opportunity to speak hope
and life into those situationsthere's this sense, for whatever
(26:54):
reason, that somehow, um,same-sex attraction it's some
sort of super attraction.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Same-sex attraction it's some sort of super
attraction.
It's like the immovable objector the mountain that can't be
moved.
And I think one of the thingsthat the Lord laid on me very
early in my relationship withChristy is that it's attraction.
Same-sex attraction is just anattraction.
It's no different from yourattraction to an attractive,
(27:31):
good-looking woman.
The issue is, what do you dowith it?
And so if your wife comes toyou and says, oh, I found my,
you know, or you suspect thatyour wife is attracted to
another woman, feel like there'ssomething like that going on.
That's no different than if shewas attracted to another man.
(27:53):
It's just an attraction.
It is a thing that we workthrough in the context of
marriage.
All men struggle, all womenstruggle with oh, there are
other attractive bodies andpersons out there and I just
need to process it as oh, I'mattracted to that person.
Move on.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Nothing's going to happen here Next topic yes.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Yeah, but it has so much more power and energy when
fear and shame start to takecontrol.
Speaker 3 (28:29):
As I entered into marriage, the question wasn't at
all, and never has been, towhom or to what is Christy
attracted?
The question is does she loveme?
Does she love me, and how doesshe walk out that love toward me
?
How is that love manifested?
Is it manifested in the ways,the healthy ways that I would
(28:53):
desire to be loved?
And if it is, then we're good.
Then we're good In the same waythat the fact that I find women
attractive.
That's an unhealthymanifestation.
If I'm looking at pornography,it's a very healthy
manifestation.
When I'm looking at my wife andI'm attracted to her, it really
(29:14):
does.
I don't want to oversimplify it, but it really does come down
to.
I'm going to choose.
I have the power to choose whatI'm going to do with those
feelings and how I'm going towalk them out.
In the same way that we dealwith same-sex attraction as some
sort of super attraction, Ihave to tell you, with the men
(29:34):
that I've walked with inpornography struggles, we men
and women tend to viewpornography temptations as some
sort of super temptation.
Oh, it's its own entity.
I'm not just tempted, it's porn.
I'm not just tempted, it's porn, and that's a super temptation
that has more power over me thananything else in my life, and
(30:00):
it doesn't have to.
It doesn't, and that is part ofwhy riffing off of what Christy
said that is part of why therelationship with Jesus is so,
so important.
It's because that relationshiptakes these things that the
world says are super sins, orsuper attractions or super
(30:22):
temptation, and puts them intoperspective.
He's what matters.
He comes first and all the restof it is secondary Good
cherries on the top, but stillsecondary.
That's right, yeah, you know.
The other thing I think that isreally important from a hope
(30:42):
standpoint, drew, is it's nevertoo late.
I've had men say you know, I'm45 and I'm struggling with this.
Yeah, you're 45 and you'restruggling with this, but guess
what?
You could be 46 and I'mstruggling with this.
Yeah, you're 45 and you'restruggling with this, but guess
what?
You could be 46 and no longerstruggling with it.
And then, how many years offreedom do you have ahead of you
?
Right?
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Yeah, amen, christy, were you going to say something?
Speaker 2 (31:07):
I was.
I was going to talk about howthe accountability between the
two of us is such a huge giftBecause me having a struggle, a
relational temptation after wegot married, and that did happen
, but I didn't.
And you said something too.
(31:28):
It's like oh, it has this powerand this shame and it's a super
, super struggle.
Well, when I didn't sit on it,as soon as I realized, oh gosh,
there's something here thatdoesn't feel right, I am
thinking about this person toomuch.
They're not in the right spacein my heart right now, I didn't
(31:50):
hold it.
I brought it to Mark.
And I didn't freak out and hedidn't freak out and basically
we shone the light of Jesus onit and took it out of the
darkness.
You keep it in the darkness, itfesters and it starts to have
more and more hold over you,right?
Yes, so you know, and I trustmy husband to hold those things
(32:14):
with me, as he trusts me to holdhis struggles, and we don't do
it perfectly, but we do do it.
You know, I don't want to givepeople the illusion that that we
have it all together and thatyou know that it's not hard, and
it is hard.
It always feels like a risk tohave to bring something that we
(32:37):
are struggling with.
That's a temptation, but thething is that temptation isn't
sin.
It's a temptation, right?
So let's take it to those wholove us before it becomes a sin.
Let's let Jesus do the work,let's let our loved ones walk
(32:58):
with us.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Good stuff.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Absolutely.
God does such good work.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
So good.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, I am so grateful.
I am grateful to be continuallybeing worked on and you know I
haven't struggled in this areathe same sex attraction for many
, many years now, many years,and when it, when it did come up
, it was dealt with right awayand it was gone.
But the beauty of it was drewthat those, one of those
(33:28):
relationships was pruned and theother relationship was blessed,
was redeemed, and it wasredeemed in my heart.
It wasn't a mutual strugglebetween myself and another woman
, it was all within me, but theLord blessed that.
And now I have an understandingof what true same-sex intimacy
(33:51):
is.
Right, because we were whattrue same-sex intimacy is.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Right, because we were created for same-sex
intimacy.
The Bible celebratesbrotherhood and sisterhood and
the bonds of friendship.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Because I have the ability now to have same-sex
friends without me warping it,without the enemy getting in and
warping it, because Iunderstand and I've taken those
disordered desires, if you will,the lies that I was told and
the shame, and haverelationships with women that
(34:25):
are, are the way god meant andare so much more intimate in an
emotional heart level than anyof the sexual relationships I
(34:46):
ever had, so much more edifying,um, they're just beautiful,
beautiful gifts from God andthere's no shame.
They're rich and there's noshame.
Yeah.
And the other thing with thesame sex attraction thing is
Mark understands because of mybrokenness inside and the places
(35:07):
that I have struggled in therewill always be scarring there.
The Lord has healed and filledthose places up, but there's
always a tenderness on thosescars.
So Mark understands howimportant it is for me to have
time with my female friends,especially the ones that the
Lord has given to me in a deep,intimate way, and he doesn't
(35:29):
feel threatened.
Actually, I'm a better wife forhim when I have spent time with
certain friends.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Yeah, it's a big mistake to think, as a husband
or a wife, that you can be theall in all for your other.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
You can't, you just can't.
You need to be other peopleinvolved and, of course, god
needs to be at the top of thelist, at the front of the line,
when it comes to those.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
It is such a gift to witness your health and strength
as a couple.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
God's done a lot of work and we just keep agreeing
with him and saying, OK, yeah,it's going to be hard, but it's
so worth it.
It's going to be hard, but it'sso worth it.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
One of the things that I do want to share, just
briefly a perspective on, drewis for the men and women that
you work with who struggle withpornography.
I often hear men describebecause I work mostly with men.
Men describe their desire isjust for the temptation to go
(36:32):
away.
I want the draw to just go away, and the reality is is that it
never goes away.
What happens instead isactually more powerful, and that
is that it just becomes a thingthat you don't do.
I get exposed to something, or Ifeel you know the enemy tries
to put something in front of methat seeks to draw me back in
(36:56):
there.
My response at the heart levelis oh, that's just not something
I do.
I don't do that anymore.
It's unrealistic in our currentworld to think that we can
insulate ourselves from that.
Sure, there's choices that wemake that you know that.
Or we can consciously keepourselves from being exposed to
something when we know that it'sthere.
(37:17):
But the reality is is that theenemy is always going to try to
tempt us.
It's just that the temptationloses its power when it becomes
just.
This is not a thing that I do.
It has no power over me, youknow, instead of being a
spotlight.
It's not even a blip on theradar screen.
Yeah, yeah, go away.
You know that's the space thatwe aspire to get to, and that's
(37:38):
where I think the Holy Spiritreally has the power to bring us
is, into that place where itjust has no call on our
attention anymore.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
It becomes like a gnat.
It's a gnat, it's just a littlegnat war, it becomes like a
gnat.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
It's a gnat, it's just a little gnat.
Yeah Amen.
That's much of what we talkabout at Husband Material
getting to the place where pornloses its power.
Mark and Christy, what is yourfavorite thing about freedom and
healing?
Speaker 3 (38:06):
My favorite thing about freedom and healing is
that I get to share it withothers.
It's part of how God calls meto love others, and it gives him
glory because I haven't doneany of this.
It's all about God, and so itbrings the light of Jesus into
the lives of other people, andthat's where I experience.
My greatest joy is just ingetting to work with men who are
(38:29):
on the same kinds of roads thatI was on and I get to say, ah,
let me walk with you a while.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Yeah, yeah, I agree with what Mark said, because
that is the most important thing.
But layered underneath that iswalking and living a life that I
never thought was possible forme.
For decades I did not think mylife was possible for me, and
(38:56):
just living a shame-free,guilt-free life where I'm free
to love and be loved is just astupendous gift.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
It doesn't get any better than that I'm getting
goosebumps right now thinkingabout it.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
I mean, the bondage was so great.
So now there hasn't beenbondage for years and I am just
beyond grateful to my creatorfor the freedom and healing that
he's given to me through Jesusand being able to pass that on.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Thank you so much for sharing.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Thank you for having us here.
Thanks for inviting us.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
You're welcome, guys.
If you would like to connectwith Mark and Christy, go down
to the links in the show notesand you can learn more about
their ministry and the spiritualdirection that they offer, and
you can also find links toRestored Hope Network and the
Living Waters program.
Thank you so much for listeningand always remember you are
God's beloved son.
In you he is well-pleased.
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