May 26, 2025 • 27 mins
In this episode, Burke Atkerson tells his story. You'll hear how he sexualized the need to be seen, safe, and soothed—and nearly burned down his marriage. In the ashes, Burke finally found the community that he didn't realize he needed. Fire Nights is his response to the loneliness epidemic plaguing men.
Burke Atkerson is the founder of Fire Nights and Men Fully Alive. He is an author, coach, and breathwork instructor—as well as a recovering addict, a failed missionary, and an undeserving husband and a grateful father of six.
Buy Burke's book, Fire Nights: Forging Brotherhood That Heals.
Join the movement of men building authentic brotherhood in their backyards at firenights.net.
Learn more and connect with Burke at menfullyalive.com.
Take the Husband Material Journey...
- Step 1: Listen to this podcast or watch on YouTube
- Step 2: Join the private Husband Material Community
- Step 3: Take the free mini-course: How To Outgrow Porn
- Step 4: Try the all-in-one program: Husband Material Academy
Thanks for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thank you forlistening to my interview with
(00:21):
Burke Atkerson.
He tells his story with radicalvulnerability and amazing
insight, and he has started anawesome ministry called Fire
Nights, which I'm excited foryou to learn more about.
Enjoy the episode.
Today.
I have the deep joy ofintroducing you all to my friend
, Burke Atkerson.
He is the author of Fire NightsForging Brotherhood that Heals,
(00:46):
and, in his words, Burke is arecovering addict, a failed
missionary, an unemployedentrepreneur, a novice author
and an undeserving husband andgrateful father to six children.
More importantly, you guys needto know that he is an amazing
man of God.
He is a coach who does deep,transformational work with men,
(01:07):
and I am excited that he will bejoining us at the Husband
Material Retreat in September.
Welcome, Burke.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Thank you, drew.
Thank you so much, brother.
I thoroughly appreciate yourfriendship.
I appreciate you bringing me onto chat and share story.
But I just want to take amoment to just acknowledge you
and what you do and how you doit.
First of all, I love how youshow up one-on-one.
I experienced transformationand healing from your friendship
(01:34):
one-on-one.
And then what you're doing withother men and what you've
chosen to dedicate your life toMost people are too covered in
shame to even bring up inconversation.
The stuff that we talk aboutday in and day out and that you
talk about with other men andthat you help them understand,
and just the level of healingthat you're bringing to other
(01:54):
men and into this world istremendously important.
So I'm full of gratitude for itand I just have so much
admiration for you.
Thank you, burke.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
It's remarkable how aligned our lives are in many
ways.
Yeah, it's beautiful, yeah, soI'm just really excited for
everybody listening to get toknow you better, burke.
You've done a tremendous amountof work.
How would you describe yourexperience growing up?
Thanks for asking that.
(02:22):
Well, I was the second born outof work.
How would you describe yourexperience growing up?
Thanks for asking that.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Well, I was the second born out of four.
There were three boys and onegirl.
I think it was overwhelming formy parents to raise us.
They did a good enough job thatwe're still alive.
Man, early on, when I was sevenyears old, I felt like I heard
the voice of God.
On when I was seven years old,I felt like I heard the voice of
God and I know I know his voice.
I feel very familiar with it.
(02:53):
This was my first moment ofexperience with it and it kind
of tainted the rest of mychildhood.
That's why I'm bringing it up.
I went to a little Christianschool.
At the bottom of the coloringsheet there was this verse um
Mark 16, 15, go ye into all theworld and preach the gospel to
every nation, king James Version.
And as I was coloring on thesheet, I felt the voice of God
speaking to me.
I felt like, wow, that's whatI'm to do with my life.
(03:15):
I found my sense of worth andimportance in going to be a
missionary someday.
And then when I got overseasand I was a missionary and I
wasn't very good at it, I felttremendously unimportant and it
ended up being more of agreenhouse for even more
addiction.
Yeah, we were overseas forseven years but, yeah, my
childhood was very marked by youknow, only I was.
(03:39):
It was a golden child syndrome.
I only felt loved when I wasperforming.
So I would perform and I wouldact like I had all my shit
together and hide everythingelse.
What did you feel the need tohide?
As a kid, I was constantlywalking on eggshells and I would
get in trouble constantly.
So really, this is a wound ofplay.
I wasn't able to just play andbe present and be myself if
(04:03):
anybody else was around, becauseI had to put on a show.
I had to walk on eggshells andmy father loved me well, but at
the same time he was volatile.
He had unprocessed anger, issuesand rage, and it wouldn't be
physical abuse most of the time,and when it was, it was
(04:24):
confused with scripture anddiscipline masked by these good
things.
So it was extra confusing.
The downside is I wouldn't haveto hide any actions, in
particular until I discoveredpornography at the age of nine.
But it was play that I had tohide.
I couldn't just be a kid, I hadto act like an adult so that
(04:47):
adults would love me.
I hate this.
The problem with conditionallove is that?
It's not love at all, and thatwas my childhood, wow.
So it really took decades andit took my whole life falling
apart before I was actually ableto unravel that and realized I
was just a, you know, living alife of performance and as you
(05:11):
grew up performing hiding inthis volatile environment.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
What did porn do for you?
Speaker 2 (05:33):
porn do for you.
Porn did so much.
It was a bandaid on a deepwound and I became very fond of
it, like a friend, right Like acounselor.
I would run to porn when lifewould get hard and it was my
comforter, it was my soothe, itwas my escape from pain.
And then eventually I re, Ilearned to just run from things
that were discomfort,uncomfortable or painful.
(05:53):
Uh, negative experiences andEnneagram seven.
So I don't like negativeexperiences, I immediately want
yeah, you too right One of theother thing we have in common so
much overlap.
So I immediately want to put abandaid on it and don't feel
pain or numb it.
Go do something fun instead.
(06:13):
And so porn was just an easydecision.
Of course it was habitual.
Of course there was traumaassociated with it.
I experienced some abuse as a10-year-old that taught me that
intimacy couldn't be experiencedoutside of sexuality.
And then, as I got older, in myteen years, I never felt loved
(06:38):
and connected with somebodyunless sex was involved.
So, of course, the rest of mylife it was confusing.
Intimacy had become sexualizedand porn was this place where I
could play, it's where I couldbe comforted, it's where I could
be soothed, I could get thisvicarious sense of being seen.
So I remember for years I'dsearch for hours through video
(07:03):
after video after video, until Ifound a girl gazing into the
guy's eyes, whatever they weredoing, if she was looking at him
like she needed him and desiredhim.
Then it's like oh, now mytemplate is fully fulfilled, now
I can climax, or whatever.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Could you say more about that need to be seen?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
So there's three parts to this.
Humans, I think, are threedeepest needs.
They're core to us havinghealthy emotions and resilience
and connected relationships asadults and as children, their
core for early childhooddevelopment, as well as to be
seen, to be safe and to besoothed, and when those are
lacking, we can't be maturespiritually, we can't be mature
(07:52):
emotionally.
My need to be seen as a childwas never met, or rarely met,
maybe I should say morespecifically Therefore, I
brought that same woundednessinto my adult relationships.
Therefore, I brought that samewoundedness into my adult
relationships, into my marriage.
The whole performance act is adesire to be seen.
Right, it's like a peacockingof sorts.
It's saying, hey, look at me,and I have this thing where I
(08:14):
have a tightness right here inthe back between my shoulder
blades that if I'm around peopleall day, it's sore.
And not so much anymore, butit's sore because I'm literally
peacocking.
I'm putting on a show as ifI've got my shit together, and
that was my whole life fordecades.
But it was so much like, hey,look at me.
(08:37):
It was so much of a deep woundthat said I need to be seen and
so much of my life has not beenseen.
And so, yeah, it started earlychildhood and then now it goes
into adulthood with just tons ofbrokenness and it's just this
constant underlying issue.
(08:59):
And then also there'ssituations around safety where I
felt like I was in eggshells,where I wasn't safe through a
lot of life.
Right, I couldn't just let downmy guard.
And then the third part is,soothed, which you're asking
about seeing.
But I think all three are core.
I quickly found unhealthy waysto soothe myself in life.
(09:19):
I found out that I wasn'tbreastfed as a baby, or maybe
for a very short period of time.
My mother went back to work andI was bottle fed, which is fine
, but there's a deep level ofsoothing that happens for a
child just being held at hismother's breasts.
Um, the skin on skin contact,the, the sucking, the.
(09:42):
I mean it sounds almost sensualthe way I'm describing it, but a
lot of sensuality is verysoothing and it is a core need
that we have.
There's a part of it thatbecomes play and, especially if
it becomes over-sexualized, itloses the deep emotional
connection.
That's healthy and should bethere, right, but we need to be
soothed and I just didn't findit in healthy ways as a kid.
(10:06):
The other thing is, I wasn'tfed enough from the bottle and
so I had this feeling like I wasalways hungry as a baby.
I still remember that feelingand when I'm still around my
parents as an adult, I startovereating and grasping for
everything.
And I realized just a few weeksago, after they left, I realized
, oh, I'm grasping because I'mscared I'm not going to have
(10:29):
enough.
I'm scared that I'm not goingto have my needs met because
they don't care about my needs.
I've got to go out of my wayand meet them, which is part of
the issue of the seven rightLike I will meet my needs.
Yeah, and that ties in directlyto my childhood as well.
Thank you so much for yourvulnerability.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
So you've told us a lot about the origins of life
falling apart.
When did things start to burndown?
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Good question.
We were overseas with thenavigators.
We'd been on staff with themfor a decade.
I'm full of gratitude for them.
They handled everything so well.
But we got to a point where wewere burned out and we didn't
know it yet.
We didn't know it till we weredoing intake forms after
everything kind of burned down.
And one of the things is we dida burnout survey and I aced it.
(11:26):
I got like a hundred percent.
I'm definitely burned outbeyond what's healthy and I had
no idea I wasn't overworking.
I was just living with a dailylevel of anxiety and stress that
was too high to be long-termsustainable.
It led to me making some baddecisions.
I claimed full responsibilityfor I don't blame it on burnout,
I don't blame it on Jill.
(11:47):
I made some bad decisions.
I crossed lines with other womenthrough text message, through
sexting, through Instagram,social media stuff, and then
eventually in person.
And at the time I was.
It's such a long story to tellthe details, but I was shooting
photography all around the world.
I've shot on five differentcontinents doing fashion
(12:09):
productions for sustainable andethical fashion brands.
I had traveled for a month andI was shooting for a number of
magazines and for four brands.
It's one of those things that'sinvite only, so it's hard to
get into.
I was like, yeah, I'm going toprioritize this and make it
happen.
And it required me to travelfor a month away from my family.
(12:29):
I met a girl who hung on to myevery word, like I was the most
interesting man in the world,and that was like cocaine for me
, man, for a woman to give methat level of attention.
And we ended up staying up till5 am, and then we walked
(12:51):
through the town as the sun wasrising, hand in hand, and I just
felt loved although it's notlove, I felt wanted.
And she was the one pursuing mefor more.
And I remember her saying like,hey, let's go back to the
hostel.
I have a room all to myself.
(13:12):
And I told her hey, I can't dothat.
Even if we did that and had agreat night, it's not going to
be enough for either of us.
Both of us are going to wantmore and we're still going to be
unsatisfied on the other sideof it.
And so there's still a littlebit of prefrontal cortex lit up.
But, man, her attention for mewas intoxicating, and so we
(13:36):
didn't end up going any further,but that was far enough to burn
things down, man.
The next night I actually movedto a different hostel because I
felt like if I stayed there Iwas going to fuck things up.
I was covered in shame thewhole day.
I met another girl the nextnight and she paid attention to
(13:57):
me and we flirted and then atnight she was in the bunk
beneath me and pursued me for alot more and we crossed a lot of
lines there which in hindsightin my body felt so much like the
abuse of when I was 10 yearsold and the girl climbing into
(14:20):
my bed and I remember justfeeling like facing away and my
whole body just tight and notwanting to be there and not
having the strength to walk awaybecause I was so aroused and
stimulated by the situation.
So for me it was just areliving of that exact same
(14:41):
abuse and at the same time itwas my decision to stay.
So, yes, trauma kept me stuckand, yes, I decided to stay.
I came back home, I immediatelyconfessed to my wife, like I
said, I didn't keep anythinghidden, didn't keep anything in
the dark.
And we called the navigatorsand they sent some.
They flew somebody down to talkto us and they said tell us
(15:03):
your whole story.
We told them everything.
They went back, prayed about itand invited us to do a
restoration process in Coloradoand it was the hardest thing of
our lives.
We lost our funding, we lost ourtitles, we got pulled off field
.
We almost lost our marriage.
We were hanging on by a string,but they took such good care of
(15:24):
us over the next few years,helping us get on our feet and
get into a healthy place in ourmarriage.
Wow, I'm full of gratitude forit, because it was hell, and now
I know my way out of hell, andnow I know my way out of hell
and it reset the trajectory fora whole marriage.
Now it's a lot more connection,it's a lot more repair, a lot
(15:48):
more healthy stuff, and thenboth of us it's given us a space
for both of us to do our work.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Thank you for sharing your story, Burke, as you
started healing at a much deeperlevel.
What role did brotherhood andcommunity play?
Speaker 2 (16:02):
I did get some really good help from therapy dealing
with trauma, talk therapy andEMDR, and that stuff has to be
dealt with.
Shame is absolutely fundamentalwork that we have to go through
if we want to know any kind ofdeep, real, lasting sobriety or
(16:23):
wholeness.
Early into the journey, a buddyand I I found out he likes to
light a campfire and he was 10years sober AA at the time.
But I was like well, let's justmeet over a campfire.
We had just done thisexperiential retreat with
Michael Cusick Restoring theSoul.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Which is where I met you.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Yes, I'm so grateful for that.
So we met at this retreat.
We're in the same little grouptogether and he happened to live
in Denver, just an hour away.
So I would drive up to Denverand I would meet him in his
backyard and he'd light his fireand we'd drink root beers
(17:06):
together and smoke pipes.
But because of the nature of our, the way we related at the
Restoring the Soul weekend is wequickly started talking about
the heart, so everything belowthe waterline, and I'd never
really done this in another manoutside of that weekend or with
another counselor.
And so this was just thisrelational, hands-off, nobody's
getting paid environment, and webegan to develop a deep,
(17:28):
healthy, beautiful relationshipsthrough it and then we started
inviting other men into it andfrom there it's just been
growing.
We'd call it fire night, likehey, you want to do fire night
this weekend, and so we've beendoing that for eight years now.
Now it's been growing andspreading and I wrote a book on
it last year.
Now there's about 12 groupsaround Colorado that I'm aware
(17:49):
of, and then in Texas andGeorgia and Arkansas as well as
well.
However, for me I began to healat a deep level because I
finally stopped holding men atarm's length.
I finally started realizingthat men can be safe, that they
could use their strength to holdmy weakness.
(18:10):
And as I began to experiencethat and it wouldn't have worked
to just read about it in a book, I had to actually taste it so
as I began to experience that, Ibegan to be healed at a deep
level.
That couldn't have happenedfrom talk therapy, because it
(18:30):
was experiential and it wasrelational.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Wow, Like Psalm 133 says how good and pleasing it is
when brothers dwell together inunity.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yes, it's so beautiful.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
The thing is, all we know is like pancake Saturdays
with a bunch of other men or youknow youth group shit, where
we'd go to a theme park togetheror go camping group shit where
we'd go to a theme park togetheror go camping, or porn recovery
groups that are very surfacelevel or shaming, or they just
(19:08):
make you feel more inadequate asyou're comparing yourself to
other guys in the group.
Behavior focused porn recoverygroups are also part of the
problem.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Because it's just the top 10% of the iceberg.
Yeah, and then the other thingis they might be involved with
the Bible study or something atchurch with other men, but 90%
of the time they just talk aboutthat top 10%.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Or we stay in our heads and we're talking about
God and we're talking aboutthings, but we're not getting
into our bodies, yes, which iswhere experience happens.
So how are fire nightsdifferent?
Speaker 2 (19:42):
There's a few different elements to that.
It has very little structure.
So it's nice to go somewherethat's not structured.
A lot of men's programs aremaybe designed around a book
study or a Bible study or a wordstudy or a topic like porn, but
this really is very open-ended.
I have three ground rules thatkind of just set the tone, but
(20:04):
the general structure is reallyopen-ended and it's really about
the relationships, and so it'sgiving a safe place for men to
open up, but it's not forcingthem to and it's not even
telling them where to go.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
What are your three ground rules for fire nights?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Number one is confidentiality.
So it's like the first rule ofFight Club is you don't talk
about Fight Club.
The reason is we have a lot ofpastors that will join them, or
counselors that will join them,therapists, and then just the
everyday person can be in theretoo, and it's important for
anybody.
But for those people, they wantto know that they have a safe
(20:41):
place to share their story.
If I meet one-on-one with anyman, but especially somebody
who's a leader, I want to tellthem hey, listen, nobody's going
to hear about this conversation, not even my wife.
This is between you and me, andI'm going to honor your story
with confidentiality.
And so we're doing the samething in fire nights.
We're bringing that samepresence of mind and honoring
(21:03):
each other's story by notsharing it with other people.
That's what you're going toexperience at work, talking with
a boss or, if you are the boss,you might even be really good
(21:26):
at that and ask five questionslike well, why, well, why, well,
why?
And then you can really do somegood problem solving, but it's
still only level one listening,and that's where most men get
stuck or capped.
We want to go deeper, whereempathy is involved and
curiosity is involved inkindness.
So we don't talk about politicsor theology or sports.
(21:46):
But somebody might saysomething that reflects their
political opinion, so somebodycould get triggered.
But if you could practiceradical acceptance and just say
you know what, I love thisperson as he is, no matter what
he believes, no matter what hethinks and no matter whether or
not his theology is correct orpolitics are correct, I'm just
going to love him as he is, then, uh a, we're learning how to
(22:09):
love each other, we're learninghow to listen, and then it gives
us the ability to be curiousinstead of defensive.
Um, rule number three is um,lean into vulnerability.
So for every man that'sdifferent.
But I've had nights where I'mdriving to go see the guys for
fire night and I'm thinking inthe back of my head like, ooh,
you know I don't want to bringup this topic.
(22:30):
Well, for me, then, that'sexactly what vulnerability is is
to go ahead and bring that upand say, hey, guys, I've been
struggling with X, y, z.
You know, we could talk aboutthe top of the iceberg, like if
you masturbated 40 times thismorning before getting to fire
night.
Let's talk about that, that'sfine.
Don't let anything stay in thedarkness, let's have it in the
(22:50):
light, but let's go deeper thanthat.
Let's talk about well, why,what were you wanting?
What were you longing for?
What were you not getting?
What were the stressors in yourlife?
What triggers were activatedthat blindsided you?
You know, let's go deeper thanjust you know I did this.
Well, what about all thebackground behind that decision?
(23:12):
That's where vulnerability andconnection are.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Burke, I love all of this so much, and some of you
guys might be thinking toyourself hey, that sounds a lot
like husband material.
Exactly, we are both wanting tocreate these kinds of spaces,
and Burke's Ministry of FireNights is a fantastic resource
for you guys to be able to notonly receive that kind of
(23:39):
healing space but also maybestart one of your own.
This is a peer-led project.
It's not for experts, it's notfor professional counselors.
As Burke said, no one's gettingpaid.
So I would highly recommendFire Nights for any of you guys
who want to create and be a partof something like that.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
I love that, Drew.
I think the question in theirheads is how would I start a
fire night?
That sounds like I'm notqualified.
I don't know if I can guideguys to depth.
A lot of the resistance I hearfrom men is like well, if people
start talking about politics, Idon't know how to bring them
back into the deeper space whichI could teach you that kind of
(24:23):
stuff.
It's actually really simple,but what I've found is everybody
who's hosting them and findingsuccess.
It's so simple.
A, they're just lighting a fireand opening up the invite to a
few men that they trust, andthen maybe one or two men who
probably just need it.
So you're just inviting meninto it.
You're lighting a fire pit inyour backyard which is what the
(24:44):
cost of wood like $5 for two,you know, $10 for two bundles of
firewood and light the wood.
You're good to go.
Or a lot of people have gasfire pits.
That's totally fine.
And then we have a few timeswhere the weather's so bad we'll
just hang out indoors and we'lllight a candle.
I love the symbolism of that,but we'll go ahead and light the
fire because the biggest reasonis it symbolizes God's presence
(25:06):
.
He's here with us.
We're not alone in this.
We have the presence of theFather, just like the pillar in
the desert, the pillar of fireor the burning bush so often
Hebrews and Jews throughouthistory would have seen fire and
been reminded of God's presenceit's just this potent symbol
throughout scripture that we getto have in front of us, between
(25:29):
us men, and then it's thisthing that is really soothing.
If you've ever sat around acampfire, you hear the crackles,
you smell the air.
The other thing is it is aplace where it's safe and it's a
place where men can feel seendeeply in ways that they can't
(25:51):
in most other areas in life.
If you're going to work andperforming really well, you're
getting seen for somethingyou're doing, but you're not
getting seen for everything elsebelow the surface doing, but
you're not getting seen foreverything else below the
surface, and so this is one ofthose places where you do get to
experience seen, safe andsoothed.
So, going back to hosting, youdon't have to provide food, you
don't have to provide alcohol.
(26:13):
Some guys will bring.
I always tell people it's BYOB.
If you want to bring something,bring it.
If somebody doesn't drink,let's honor that fully.
And then usually I'll light upa cigar.
Usually one or two other peoplewill, but none of that's a
requirement.
It's really about therelationships, not cigars.
It's not about drinks, it's notabout snacks.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
It's about just a campfire, with men who are
willing to go there learn moreabout fire nights, go down to
the link in the show notes and,of course, you can also reach
out to Burke if you'reinterested in working with him.
Burke, what is your favoritething about healing and freedom
from porn?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
What I love is to be fully alive, and I can feel not
only the pains in life which ispart of being fully alive but
also the joys.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Absolutely beautiful, the full range of human
emotions.
We need it, amen, burke.
Thank you so much for beingwith us.
My pleasure, brother.
I'm really excited about Burkejoining us at the Husband
Material Retreat in Septemberand in part two of this
interview you are going to hearmore about Burke's training and
(27:24):
expertise in breathwork and howthat can help you outgrow porn.
Go down to the links in theshow notes if you want to
connect with Burke and alwaysremember you are God's beloved
son In you.
He is well pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thank you forlistening to my interview with
(00:21):
Burke Atkerson.
He tells his story with radicalvulnerability and amazing
insight, and he has started anawesome ministry called Fire
Nights, which I'm excited foryou to learn more about.
Enjoy the episode.
Today.
I have the deep joy ofintroducing you all to my friend
, Burke Atkerson.
He is the author of Fire NightsForging Brotherhood that Heals,
(00:46):
and, in his words, Burke is arecovering addict, a failed
missionary, an unemployedentrepreneur, a novice author
and an undeserving husband andgrateful father to six children.
More importantly, you guys needto know that he is an amazing
man of God.
He is a coach who does deep,transformational work with men,
(01:07):
and I am excited that he will bejoining us at the Husband
Material Retreat in September.
Welcome, Burke.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Thank you, drew.
Thank you so much, brother.
I thoroughly appreciate yourfriendship.
I appreciate you bringing me onto chat and share story.
But I just want to take amoment to just acknowledge you
and what you do and how you doit.
First of all, I love how youshow up one-on-one.
I experienced transformationand healing from your friendship
(01:34):
one-on-one.
And then what you're doing withother men and what you've
chosen to dedicate your life toMost people are too covered in
shame to even bring up inconversation.
The stuff that we talk aboutday in and day out and that you
talk about with other men andthat you help them understand,
and just the level of healingthat you're bringing to other
(01:54):
men and into this world istremendously important.
So I'm full of gratitude for itand I just have so much
admiration for you.
Thank you, burke.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
It's remarkable how aligned our lives are in many
ways.
Yeah, it's beautiful, yeah, soI'm just really excited for
everybody listening to get toknow you better, burke.
You've done a tremendous amountof work.
How would you describe yourexperience growing up?
Thanks for asking that.
(02:22):
Well, I was the second born outof work.
How would you describe yourexperience growing up?
Thanks for asking that.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Well, I was the second born out of four.
There were three boys and onegirl.
I think it was overwhelming formy parents to raise us.
They did a good enough job thatwe're still alive.
Man, early on, when I was sevenyears old, I felt like I heard
the voice of God.
On when I was seven years old,I felt like I heard the voice of
God and I know I know his voice.
I feel very familiar with it.
(02:53):
This was my first moment ofexperience with it and it kind
of tainted the rest of mychildhood.
That's why I'm bringing it up.
I went to a little Christianschool.
At the bottom of the coloringsheet there was this verse um
Mark 16, 15, go ye into all theworld and preach the gospel to
every nation, king James Version.
And as I was coloring on thesheet, I felt the voice of God
speaking to me.
I felt like, wow, that's whatI'm to do with my life.
(03:15):
I found my sense of worth andimportance in going to be a
missionary someday.
And then when I got overseasand I was a missionary and I
wasn't very good at it, I felttremendously unimportant and it
ended up being more of agreenhouse for even more
addiction.
Yeah, we were overseas forseven years but, yeah, my
childhood was very marked by youknow, only I was.
(03:39):
It was a golden child syndrome.
I only felt loved when I wasperforming.
So I would perform and I wouldact like I had all my shit
together and hide everythingelse.
What did you feel the need tohide?
As a kid, I was constantlywalking on eggshells and I would
get in trouble constantly.
So really, this is a wound ofplay.
I wasn't able to just play andbe present and be myself if
(04:03):
anybody else was around, becauseI had to put on a show.
I had to walk on eggshells andmy father loved me well, but at
the same time he was volatile.
He had unprocessed anger, issuesand rage, and it wouldn't be
physical abuse most of the time,and when it was, it was
(04:24):
confused with scripture anddiscipline masked by these good
things.
So it was extra confusing.
The downside is I wouldn't haveto hide any actions, in
particular until I discoveredpornography at the age of nine.
But it was play that I had tohide.
I couldn't just be a kid, I hadto act like an adult so that
(04:47):
adults would love me.
I hate this.
The problem with conditionallove is that?
It's not love at all, and thatwas my childhood, wow.
So it really took decades andit took my whole life falling
apart before I was actually ableto unravel that and realized I
was just a, you know, living alife of performance and as you
(05:11):
grew up performing hiding inthis volatile environment.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
What did porn do for you?
Speaker 2 (05:33):
porn do for you.
Porn did so much.
It was a bandaid on a deepwound and I became very fond of
it, like a friend, right Like acounselor.
I would run to porn when lifewould get hard and it was my
comforter, it was my soothe, itwas my escape from pain.
And then eventually I re, Ilearned to just run from things
that were discomfort,uncomfortable or painful.
(05:53):
Uh, negative experiences andEnneagram seven.
So I don't like negativeexperiences, I immediately want
yeah, you too right One of theother thing we have in common so
much overlap.
So I immediately want to put abandaid on it and don't feel
pain or numb it.
Go do something fun instead.
(06:13):
And so porn was just an easydecision.
Of course it was habitual.
Of course there was traumaassociated with it.
I experienced some abuse as a10-year-old that taught me that
intimacy couldn't be experiencedoutside of sexuality.
And then, as I got older, in myteen years, I never felt loved
(06:38):
and connected with somebodyunless sex was involved.
So, of course, the rest of mylife it was confusing.
Intimacy had become sexualizedand porn was this place where I
could play, it's where I couldbe comforted, it's where I could
be soothed, I could get thisvicarious sense of being seen.
So I remember for years I'dsearch for hours through video
(07:03):
after video after video, until Ifound a girl gazing into the
guy's eyes, whatever they weredoing, if she was looking at him
like she needed him and desiredhim.
Then it's like oh, now mytemplate is fully fulfilled, now
I can climax, or whatever.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Could you say more about that need to be seen?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
So there's three parts to this.
Humans, I think, are threedeepest needs.
They're core to us havinghealthy emotions and resilience
and connected relationships asadults and as children, their
core for early childhooddevelopment, as well as to be
seen, to be safe and to besoothed, and when those are
lacking, we can't be maturespiritually, we can't be mature
(07:52):
emotionally.
My need to be seen as a childwas never met, or rarely met,
maybe I should say morespecifically Therefore, I
brought that same woundednessinto my adult relationships.
Therefore, I brought that samewoundedness into my adult
relationships, into my marriage.
The whole performance act is adesire to be seen.
Right, it's like a peacockingof sorts.
It's saying, hey, look at me,and I have this thing where I
(08:14):
have a tightness right here inthe back between my shoulder
blades that if I'm around peopleall day, it's sore.
And not so much anymore, butit's sore because I'm literally
peacocking.
I'm putting on a show as ifI've got my shit together, and
that was my whole life fordecades.
But it was so much like, hey,look at me.
(08:37):
It was so much of a deep woundthat said I need to be seen and
so much of my life has not beenseen.
And so, yeah, it started earlychildhood and then now it goes
into adulthood with just tons ofbrokenness and it's just this
constant underlying issue.
(08:59):
And then also there'ssituations around safety where I
felt like I was in eggshells,where I wasn't safe through a
lot of life.
Right, I couldn't just let downmy guard.
And then the third part is,soothed, which you're asking
about seeing.
But I think all three are core.
I quickly found unhealthy waysto soothe myself in life.
(09:19):
I found out that I wasn'tbreastfed as a baby, or maybe
for a very short period of time.
My mother went back to work andI was bottle fed, which is fine
, but there's a deep level ofsoothing that happens for a
child just being held at hismother's breasts.
Um, the skin on skin contact,the, the sucking, the.
(09:42):
I mean it sounds almost sensualthe way I'm describing it, but a
lot of sensuality is verysoothing and it is a core need
that we have.
There's a part of it thatbecomes play and, especially if
it becomes over-sexualized, itloses the deep emotional
connection.
That's healthy and should bethere, right, but we need to be
soothed and I just didn't findit in healthy ways as a kid.
(10:06):
The other thing is, I wasn'tfed enough from the bottle and
so I had this feeling like I wasalways hungry as a baby.
I still remember that feelingand when I'm still around my
parents as an adult, I startovereating and grasping for
everything.
And I realized just a few weeksago, after they left, I realized
, oh, I'm grasping because I'mscared I'm not going to have
(10:29):
enough.
I'm scared that I'm not goingto have my needs met because
they don't care about my needs.
I've got to go out of my wayand meet them, which is part of
the issue of the seven rightLike I will meet my needs.
Yeah, and that ties in directlyto my childhood as well.
Thank you so much for yourvulnerability.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
So you've told us a lot about the origins of life
falling apart.
When did things start to burndown?
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Good question.
We were overseas with thenavigators.
We'd been on staff with themfor a decade.
I'm full of gratitude for them.
They handled everything so well.
But we got to a point where wewere burned out and we didn't
know it yet.
We didn't know it till we weredoing intake forms after
everything kind of burned down.
And one of the things is we dida burnout survey and I aced it.
(11:26):
I got like a hundred percent.
I'm definitely burned outbeyond what's healthy and I had
no idea I wasn't overworking.
I was just living with a dailylevel of anxiety and stress that
was too high to be long-termsustainable.
It led to me making some baddecisions.
I claimed full responsibilityfor I don't blame it on burnout,
I don't blame it on Jill.
(11:47):
I made some bad decisions.
I crossed lines with other womenthrough text message, through
sexting, through Instagram,social media stuff, and then
eventually in person.
And at the time I was.
It's such a long story to tellthe details, but I was shooting
photography all around the world.
I've shot on five differentcontinents doing fashion
(12:09):
productions for sustainable andethical fashion brands.
I had traveled for a month andI was shooting for a number of
magazines and for four brands.
It's one of those things that'sinvite only, so it's hard to
get into.
I was like, yeah, I'm going toprioritize this and make it
happen.
And it required me to travelfor a month away from my family.
(12:29):
I met a girl who hung on to myevery word, like I was the most
interesting man in the world,and that was like cocaine for me
, man, for a woman to give methat level of attention.
And we ended up staying up till5 am, and then we walked
(12:51):
through the town as the sun wasrising, hand in hand, and I just
felt loved although it's notlove, I felt wanted.
And she was the one pursuing mefor more.
And I remember her saying like,hey, let's go back to the
hostel.
I have a room all to myself.
(13:12):
And I told her hey, I can't dothat.
Even if we did that and had agreat night, it's not going to
be enough for either of us.
Both of us are going to wantmore and we're still going to be
unsatisfied on the other sideof it.
And so there's still a littlebit of prefrontal cortex lit up.
But, man, her attention for mewas intoxicating, and so we
(13:36):
didn't end up going any further,but that was far enough to burn
things down, man.
The next night I actually movedto a different hostel because I
felt like if I stayed there Iwas going to fuck things up.
I was covered in shame thewhole day.
I met another girl the nextnight and she paid attention to
(13:57):
me and we flirted and then atnight she was in the bunk
beneath me and pursued me for alot more and we crossed a lot of
lines there which in hindsightin my body felt so much like the
abuse of when I was 10 yearsold and the girl climbing into
(14:20):
my bed and I remember justfeeling like facing away and my
whole body just tight and notwanting to be there and not
having the strength to walk awaybecause I was so aroused and
stimulated by the situation.
So for me it was just areliving of that exact same
(14:41):
abuse and at the same time itwas my decision to stay.
So, yes, trauma kept me stuckand, yes, I decided to stay.
I came back home, I immediatelyconfessed to my wife, like I
said, I didn't keep anythinghidden, didn't keep anything in
the dark.
And we called the navigatorsand they sent some.
They flew somebody down to talkto us and they said tell us
(15:03):
your whole story.
We told them everything.
They went back, prayed about itand invited us to do a
restoration process in Coloradoand it was the hardest thing of
our lives.
We lost our funding, we lost ourtitles, we got pulled off field
.
We almost lost our marriage.
We were hanging on by a string,but they took such good care of
(15:24):
us over the next few years,helping us get on our feet and
get into a healthy place in ourmarriage.
Wow, I'm full of gratitude forit, because it was hell, and now
I know my way out of hell, andnow I know my way out of hell
and it reset the trajectory fora whole marriage.
Now it's a lot more connection,it's a lot more repair, a lot
(15:48):
more healthy stuff, and thenboth of us it's given us a space
for both of us to do our work.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Thank you for sharing your story, Burke, as you
started healing at a much deeperlevel.
What role did brotherhood andcommunity play?
Speaker 2 (16:02):
I did get some really good help from therapy dealing
with trauma, talk therapy andEMDR, and that stuff has to be
dealt with.
Shame is absolutely fundamentalwork that we have to go through
if we want to know any kind ofdeep, real, lasting sobriety or
(16:23):
wholeness.
Early into the journey, a buddyand I I found out he likes to
light a campfire and he was 10years sober AA at the time.
But I was like well, let's justmeet over a campfire.
We had just done thisexperiential retreat with
Michael Cusick Restoring theSoul.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Which is where I met you.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Yes, I'm so grateful for that.
So we met at this retreat.
We're in the same little grouptogether and he happened to live
in Denver, just an hour away.
So I would drive up to Denverand I would meet him in his
backyard and he'd light his fireand we'd drink root beers
(17:06):
together and smoke pipes.
But because of the nature of our, the way we related at the
Restoring the Soul weekend is wequickly started talking about
the heart, so everything belowthe waterline, and I'd never
really done this in another manoutside of that weekend or with
another counselor.
And so this was just thisrelational, hands-off, nobody's
getting paid environment, and webegan to develop a deep,
(17:28):
healthy, beautiful relationshipsthrough it and then we started
inviting other men into it andfrom there it's just been
growing.
We'd call it fire night, likehey, you want to do fire night
this weekend, and so we've beendoing that for eight years now.
Now it's been growing andspreading and I wrote a book on
it last year.
Now there's about 12 groupsaround Colorado that I'm aware
(17:49):
of, and then in Texas andGeorgia and Arkansas as well as
well.
However, for me I began to healat a deep level because I
finally stopped holding men atarm's length.
I finally started realizingthat men can be safe, that they
could use their strength to holdmy weakness.
(18:10):
And as I began to experiencethat and it wouldn't have worked
to just read about it in a book, I had to actually taste it so
as I began to experience that, Ibegan to be healed at a deep
level.
That couldn't have happenedfrom talk therapy, because it
(18:30):
was experiential and it wasrelational.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Wow, Like Psalm 133 says how good and pleasing it is
when brothers dwell together inunity.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yes, it's so beautiful.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
The thing is, all we know is like pancake Saturdays
with a bunch of other men or youknow youth group shit, where
we'd go to a theme park togetheror go camping group shit where
we'd go to a theme park togetheror go camping, or porn recovery
groups that are very surfacelevel or shaming, or they just
(19:08):
make you feel more inadequate asyou're comparing yourself to
other guys in the group.
Behavior focused porn recoverygroups are also part of the
problem.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Because it's just the top 10% of the iceberg.
Yeah, and then the other thingis they might be involved with
the Bible study or something atchurch with other men, but 90%
of the time they just talk aboutthat top 10%.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Or we stay in our heads and we're talking about
God and we're talking aboutthings, but we're not getting
into our bodies, yes, which iswhere experience happens.
So how are fire nightsdifferent?
Speaker 2 (19:42):
There's a few different elements to that.
It has very little structure.
So it's nice to go somewherethat's not structured.
A lot of men's programs aremaybe designed around a book
study or a Bible study or a wordstudy or a topic like porn, but
this really is very open-ended.
I have three ground rules thatkind of just set the tone, but
(20:04):
the general structure is reallyopen-ended and it's really about
the relationships, and so it'sgiving a safe place for men to
open up, but it's not forcingthem to and it's not even
telling them where to go.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
What are your three ground rules for fire nights?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
Number one is confidentiality.
So it's like the first rule ofFight Club is you don't talk
about Fight Club.
The reason is we have a lot ofpastors that will join them, or
counselors that will join them,therapists, and then just the
everyday person can be in theretoo, and it's important for
anybody.
But for those people, they wantto know that they have a safe
(20:41):
place to share their story.
If I meet one-on-one with anyman, but especially somebody
who's a leader, I want to tellthem hey, listen, nobody's going
to hear about this conversation, not even my wife.
This is between you and me, andI'm going to honor your story
with confidentiality.
And so we're doing the samething in fire nights.
We're bringing that samepresence of mind and honoring
(21:03):
each other's story by notsharing it with other people.
That's what you're going toexperience at work, talking with
a boss or, if you are the boss,you might even be really good
(21:26):
at that and ask five questionslike well, why, well, why, well,
why?
And then you can really do somegood problem solving, but it's
still only level one listening,and that's where most men get
stuck or capped.
We want to go deeper, whereempathy is involved and
curiosity is involved inkindness.
So we don't talk about politicsor theology or sports.
(21:46):
But somebody might saysomething that reflects their
political opinion, so somebodycould get triggered.
But if you could practiceradical acceptance and just say
you know what, I love thisperson as he is, no matter what
he believes, no matter what hethinks and no matter whether or
not his theology is correct orpolitics are correct, I'm just
going to love him as he is, then, uh a, we're learning how to
(22:09):
love each other, we're learninghow to listen, and then it gives
us the ability to be curiousinstead of defensive.
Um, rule number three is um,lean into vulnerability.
So for every man that'sdifferent.
But I've had nights where I'mdriving to go see the guys for
fire night and I'm thinking inthe back of my head like, ooh,
you know I don't want to bringup this topic.
(22:30):
Well, for me, then, that'sexactly what vulnerability is is
to go ahead and bring that upand say, hey, guys, I've been
struggling with X, y, z.
You know, we could talk aboutthe top of the iceberg, like if
you masturbated 40 times thismorning before getting to fire
night.
Let's talk about that, that'sfine.
Don't let anything stay in thedarkness, let's have it in the
(22:50):
light, but let's go deeper thanthat.
Let's talk about well, why,what were you wanting?
What were you longing for?
What were you not getting?
What were the stressors in yourlife?
What triggers were activatedthat blindsided you?
You know, let's go deeper thanjust you know I did this.
Well, what about all thebackground behind that decision?
(23:12):
That's where vulnerability andconnection are.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Burke, I love all of this so much, and some of you
guys might be thinking toyourself hey, that sounds a lot
like husband material.
Exactly, we are both wanting tocreate these kinds of spaces,
and Burke's Ministry of FireNights is a fantastic resource
for you guys to be able to notonly receive that kind of
(23:39):
healing space but also maybestart one of your own.
This is a peer-led project.
It's not for experts, it's notfor professional counselors.
As Burke said, no one's gettingpaid.
So I would highly recommendFire Nights for any of you guys
who want to create and be a partof something like that.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
I love that, Drew.
I think the question in theirheads is how would I start a
fire night?
That sounds like I'm notqualified.
I don't know if I can guideguys to depth.
A lot of the resistance I hearfrom men is like well, if people
start talking about politics, Idon't know how to bring them
back into the deeper space whichI could teach you that kind of
(24:23):
stuff.
It's actually really simple,but what I've found is everybody
who's hosting them and findingsuccess.
It's so simple.
A, they're just lighting a fireand opening up the invite to a
few men that they trust, andthen maybe one or two men who
probably just need it.
So you're just inviting meninto it.
You're lighting a fire pit inyour backyard which is what the
(24:44):
cost of wood like $5 for two,you know, $10 for two bundles of
firewood and light the wood.
You're good to go.
Or a lot of people have gasfire pits.
That's totally fine.
And then we have a few timeswhere the weather's so bad we'll
just hang out indoors and we'lllight a candle.
I love the symbolism of that,but we'll go ahead and light the
fire because the biggest reasonis it symbolizes God's presence
(25:06):
.
He's here with us.
We're not alone in this.
We have the presence of theFather, just like the pillar in
the desert, the pillar of fireor the burning bush so often
Hebrews and Jews throughouthistory would have seen fire and
been reminded of God's presenceit's just this potent symbol
throughout scripture that we getto have in front of us, between
(25:29):
us men, and then it's thisthing that is really soothing.
If you've ever sat around acampfire, you hear the crackles,
you smell the air.
The other thing is it is aplace where it's safe and it's a
place where men can feel seendeeply in ways that they can't
(25:51):
in most other areas in life.
If you're going to work andperforming really well, you're
getting seen for somethingyou're doing, but you're not
getting seen for everything elsebelow the surface doing, but
you're not getting seen foreverything else below the
surface, and so this is one ofthose places where you do get to
experience seen, safe andsoothed.
So, going back to hosting, youdon't have to provide food, you
don't have to provide alcohol.
(26:13):
Some guys will bring.
I always tell people it's BYOB.
If you want to bring something,bring it.
If somebody doesn't drink,let's honor that fully.
And then usually I'll light upa cigar.
Usually one or two other peoplewill, but none of that's a
requirement.
It's really about therelationships, not cigars.
It's not about drinks, it's notabout snacks.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
It's about just a campfire, with men who are
willing to go there learn moreabout fire nights, go down to
the link in the show notes and,of course, you can also reach
out to Burke if you'reinterested in working with him.
Burke, what is your favoritething about healing and freedom
from porn?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
What I love is to be fully alive, and I can feel not
only the pains in life which ispart of being fully alive but
also the joys.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Absolutely beautiful, the full range of human
emotions.
We need it, amen, burke.
Thank you so much for beingwith us.
My pleasure, brother.
I'm really excited about Burkejoining us at the Husband
Material Retreat in Septemberand in part two of this
interview you are going to hearmore about Burke's training and
(27:24):
expertise in breathwork and howthat can help you outgrow porn.
Go down to the links in theshow notes if you want to
connect with Burke and alwaysremember you are God's beloved
son In you.
He is well pleased.
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