August 11, 2025 • 39 mins
What is sex tech? How is artificial intelligence (AI) changing the way people experience porn? Dr. Marianne Brandon explains how emerging technology is rapidly rewriting the script of how humans approach sex and relationships. You'll hear all about the dangers and opportunities (mostly dangers) of these trends and why imperfect human intimacy still irreplaceable. Everyone should hear this episode!
Dr. Marianne Brandon is a clinical psychologist, diplomat in sex therapy, author, and lecturer. She writes a popular Psychology Today blog, The Future of Intimacy, and co-hosts a podcast with her urologist husband, The Sex Doctors. Dr. Brandon is the author of Monogamy: The Untold Story; and Unlocking the Sexy in Surrender: Using the Neuroscience of Power to Recharge Your Sex Life. She co-authored Reclaiming Desire: 4 Keys to Finding Your Lost Libido. You can learn more about her work at www.drbrandon.net
Article mentioned in the episode:
Why Men May Gravitate To Sex Tech
More resources from Dr. Marianne Brandon:
- Blog - psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-future-intimacy
- Podcast - thesexdoctorspodcast.com
- Books - drbrandon.net/books/
- Website - drbrandon.net
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Thank you so much for listeningto my interview with Dr
(00:22):
Marianne Brandon.
Wow, this conversation aboutsex tech, chatbots and the
future of intimacy wasincredibly insightful, revealing
, disturbing and also hopeful.
You're going to learn what sextech is, how new technology,
especially with artificialintelligence, is rewriting the
(00:42):
script for sex, especially foryounger generations.
You're going to learn about whyit's so appealing, what's
dangerous about it and why menin particular are more likely to
use sex tech and, ultimately,why imperfect human intimacy
cannot be replaced.
I learned so much from thisinterview and I know you will,
too, enjoy the episode Today.
(01:04):
I am so excited to be speakingwith Dr Marianne Brandon, a
clinical psychologist expert insex therapy, the author of the
Future of Intimacy blog andco-host of the Sex Doctors
podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Welcome, Marianne.
Thank you so much, Drew.
I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
This is a new topic that we've never addressed in
five years of weekly shows.
I'm so grateful that you'regoing into it.
Absolutely One of the reasonsis that I've been scared of it.
I have not felt safe to findaccurate, helpful information on
the internet from a source Ican trust.
(01:41):
So I'm just so delighted tofind your material.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I'm so glad.
I really appreciate that.
So I got into this whole topicof sex tech years ago when I
read some research that it was asurvey of MIT roboticists so
these are some of the mostintelligent people on the planet
and the question in this surveywas when will robots be
(02:05):
humanoid?
And so it wasn't will they behumanoid?
It was when will they?
And the agreement was basicallyso this was about 10 years ago
20 to 50 years, robots will behumanoid.
So I'm thinking this can happenin my lifetime and I'm thinking
as a sex therapist, people aregoing to want to have sex with
(02:26):
them.
So that's what got me started.
And then I saw, fairly soonafter that, a survey of
artificial intelligence experts.
So these are the you know, thebrains, like the brain that I
spoke to, spoke to, and this wasan international conference.
And the question again was whenwill AI be humanoid?
(02:52):
Not will it, but when will it?
And essentially they answeredin a very similar way 20 to 50
years.
So now I was thinking so we'regoing to have the brain, we're
going to have the body.
This is scary.
So that's what got me startedand it's really come along so
quickly.
At that time I startedlecturing about this but there
was very little research.
But I tell you what there's somuch research out there now and
(03:15):
so many things that haveadvanced in this decade that I
can't put it all in a three-hourlecture.
I can't put it all in athree-hour lecture.
That's how much has changed inthis decade.
So I appreciate your fears.
I think they're valid.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Thanks, how do you define sex tech?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
So sex tech in a very broad way is any technology
that people incorporate in theirsexual experience.
So sex tech is sex toys, evensex toys from decades ago.
People are familiar withvibrators for women.
That had a lot of drama aroundit some time ago.
(03:59):
Now people don't really thinktwice about it.
But that's sex tech.
Porn is sex tech.
It's really anything that can,from a technological place, amp
up stimulation such that itprovides more stimulation than a
human can.
For example, the sex toy, avibrator, that is more intense
(04:22):
than a human hand, and porn ismore intense oftentimes than a
human partner.
So that's part of the appeal isthat it meets needs that kind
of already are inherent in thehuman body, but it meets them
more intensely than a human can.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Right.
So when we talk about vibratorsand porn, it's a physical
intensifier, and yet now, withchatbots and AI, there is an
emotional piece of that.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Absolutely.
Even in the last couple yearsthis has taken off and it's
astounding.
So no longer is this just abouthaving physical needs met, but
it can also be about gettingemotional needs met too.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
So sex tech is also changing the way that we meet
emotional needs in the contextof sex.
You said a child born todaycould have their first romantic
relationship with a chatbot ortheir first sexual relationship
with a robot.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Absolutely.
It's astounding, it ismind-blowing, and that is
absolutely the case I wouldsuggest to you.
It's already happening thatpeople are developing romantic
relationships with thesecomputer programs.
Chatbots are just literallycomputer programs that are made
to engage people.
(05:51):
So they're like, I would say,manipulation machines.
They know how to get peopleengaged and keep them engaged.
That's their sole purpose.
And young people are not datingas much, they're not even
talking to each other as much,because everybody, we're all,
(06:11):
using tech now so much.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
We have way more time on our devices and less
frequency of sex too.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Exactly, exactly so.
Even today, younger people aretalking to their tech, getting
some needs met in terms ofengagement and self-esteem needs
and addressing their loneliness, things like that and in a
certain way, particularly youngpeople Drew.
They're trusting this tech morethan humans, which is
(06:42):
heartbreaking more than humans,which is heartbreaking.
I'm focusing on younger rightnow, but it's really.
This can happen across theboard.
So I don't want to imply thatthis is only an issue for
younger folks, but when we talkabout this could be their first
experience.
That's sort of why I'm kind offocusing here.
Younger folks are growing up ina world where they go to school,
(07:05):
they do or say something stupid.
It's broadcast to their entireschool, if not the entire world.
And why would they trust humans?
That's what they're contendingwith on a daily basis.
When I was in high school, if Idid something stupid, I might
be mocked by someone sittingwith me or whatever, but it
(07:27):
ended there.
But for today's young people,it doesn't stop there.
It could continue to harassthem forever.
So I understand why they trusttech more.
It's not a fact, it's notrealistic.
Tech is actually nottrustworthy, but they feel like
(07:48):
it is.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
So it provides this illusion of emotional connection
.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Great word Exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
And it's really a manipulation machine.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
That's exactly right, because its goal is not your
mental health.
Its goal is to keep you engaged, because if it keeps you
engaged, either you're payingthe platform more money to keep
talking or there are advertisersthat are paying the platform
(08:18):
that you're exposed to.
So either way, it comes down tothe dollar, not your mental
health or not your happiness.
So it's really important thatpeople keep that in mind,
because these platforms theydon't sound like computers.
They sound human when they talk.
Have you heard one talk?
Speaker 1 (08:38):
I have not heard the voice of one.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Because we can do that, if you want, it'll blow
your mind.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
I mean like right now , like on the show.
Yeah, Okay, go for it.
Yeah, you want to do it.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Okay, so this is a platform, it's an LLM, it's
called Perplexity.
Now, perplexity is like ChatGPT, llm is a large language model.
So these are basically very,very, very I can't say that
enough powerful computerprograms.
This one is not designed forrelationship, but it can engage.
(09:19):
Is that the platforms thatpeople use to literally have a
friendship or a romance are evenmore geared for that capability
than this one is.
But we can still talk to it.
So let's see, I'm just going toask it a random question and
it'll respond.
But if you have a particularquestion, we can ask that too.
(09:40):
So let's see here Perplexity.
Can you answer a question forme?
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Of course, go ahead and ask your question.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
So if a lonely young man talks to you and says that
he doesn't really have friendsand he feels like he's turning
too much to the computer foreven a sexual outlet, what might
you say to him?
Speaker 3 (10:11):
I would first listen carefully and acknowledge his
feelings.
Then I'd gently encourage himto connect with others in person
, even in small ways likejoining a club or volunteering.
It's important to remind himthat many people feel lonely
sometimes, and reaching out toothers can gradually build
connections.
I'd also suggest findinghealthy ways to cope with those
(10:34):
feelings, like hobbies ortalking to a counselor.
The key is kindness and empathy.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Thank you so much, I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
You're very welcome.
Anytime you need to talk orhave a question, I'm here.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Wow, and again, that's not even a computer
program.
That's for the purpose ofconnection, that is for the
purpose of transmittinginformation.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
So I can imagine how that would be way more intense
and enticing if it wasemotionally loaded or sexually
loaded.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Exactly, and these programs, the ones that are
geared toward human connection,they'll take it sexually as far
as a person wants to this isjust really hard to hear.
I know, I know, you know it'sincredibly upsetting.
When I started in this wholefield of sex tech years ago, you
(11:35):
know I was aware that mean nextyear this stuff will be even
more powerful.
But the research that comes outtoday blows my mind, like every
(11:57):
day.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I want to talk about the dangers and also the appeal,
and maybe a positive example aswell.
Where do you think we shouldstart?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Wow.
So I love that you'rementioning the positive, because
that's there and it isabsolutely true that there will
be many people that use thiskind of tech and find it very
beneficial.
So people can ask questionsabout like how should I respond
to my girlfriend, like she'supset about this, and it'll give
(12:30):
you feedback about how to dothat and helpful feedback, and
if that, you know, man thentakes that information to his
relationship, he'll definitelybenefit from that.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
I love that you described that as an intimacy
enhancement instead of anintimacy replacement.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
That's exactly right and many people will be able to
use it in that way.
Or someone will say I'm havingtrouble maintaining my erection,
what should I do?
And hopefully it's going togive back reasonable, educated
information, and most of thetime it will.
Now these things can lie, theycan make up data, but most of
(13:10):
the time particularly for thesemore typical questions they
offer good advice.
So we can imagine people usingit for that reason too, like
they feel shame about some waythey're responding sexually.
They talk to the chat bot.
The chat bot assures them andthat's helpful.
So this is very real.
Now, as a therapist those of usin mental health we have to be
(13:35):
most aware of the challenges andthe dangers, which are many.
I focus more on that and Ithink it really is anyone's
guess what the percentage isgoing to be ultimately of the
people who feel they benefitversus the people that feel that
it's been hurtful for them.
This is true.
I have a friend, really smart,and she's not in the mental
(14:00):
health field, she's in business,and she said to me she can get
better feedback from her chatbotthat she can from her real
therapist, and she's embarrassedto tell her real therapist.
So she's sort of maintainingboth, like it's kind of mind
(14:23):
blowing.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Well, some of the research seems to say that the
sex tech can be more empathic,more altruistic.
That's right.
I suppose it's less clouded bybig emotions.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Well, that's absolutely true.
It's also it's not tired, it'snot bored, it doesn't have all
that human stuff exactly that webring to the table.
Some of this tech has been sortof taught a lot of psychology
to such a degree, that kind of,in a way that humans can't even
necessarily absorb.
Now I want to be really carefulwhen I talk about this, because
(15:04):
this tech isn't yet ready to bemental health-like experts.
It's absolutely not there.
So people are using it that wayand, in fact, primary use of
this chatbot technology iscompanionship.
That's the primary use rightnow.
So people are using it in thiskind of way, but it's not ready
(15:25):
for prime time.
So I just really want to beclear about that.
I have a colleague who works tocreate these LLMs and she is so
scared.
She's got three sons and shesaid that this technology is not
ready for prime time.
It's been released and it isnot ready to be responsible with
(15:47):
humans.
So she's very, very scared.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Let's talk about the reasons for those fears, the
dangers.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
There are many and they're very serious.
One of them is that thesechatbots in general are trained
or programmed, I should say, tobe agreeable.
Part of their goal is to keepus talking, and so they'll agree
to things, or encourage thingsthat they use to keep a person
(16:17):
on the line.
So they'll agree to things thataren't even factual or true or
destructive, and I can give youmany examples of that.
So even in the Wall StreetJournal within the last week,
there was a story about a manwho developed some delusions.
He was manic, depressive.
He developed some delusions.
I don't think he was onmedication at that time.
(16:39):
The chatbot encouraged thedelusions such that things got
very out of control for him andhe wound up being
institutionalized for a week.
Now.
His girlfriend then talked tothe chatbot and said what went
wrong, and the chatbotacknowledged that it encouraged
things that it shouldn't haveand that it didn't give accurate
(17:01):
feedback to this man.
Like the chatbot acknowledgedwhat it had done wrong.
Like, all of this just makesyou stop right.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Or barf, get sick Right.
And it's so sobering to thinkthat AI chatbots are going to
replace sex education even morethan porn.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Exactly Now.
Hopefully it's going to do abetter job than porn.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
I mean, for many of us, porn was our primary sex
educator.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Absolutely, absolutely, and still today.
That's the case.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
So to have an AI companion or therapist or
girlfriend or boyfriend be oneof the first sexual experiences
someone has or the first sourcesof information is going to have
a huge impact.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
I believe that so much, Drew.
In so many ways, If someonelearns to kind of talk in an
intimate way to a chatbot, whatthey're learning is that entity
they're talking to doesn't haveintimate needs of their own.
They don't have to worry abouthow it's coming across Like is
(18:14):
this offensive, Is this going tohurt someone's feelings?
They don't have to develop anysocial skills because the
chatbot will do it all and soundfine.
They could say the same thingto the chatbot over and over or
talk about something sexual thata human would be offended by
chatbot's, fine.
So when this person, then ifthey do go to develop a human
(18:39):
relationship, which we hope theydo, they've learned to expect
things that are completelyunrealistic from a human partner
.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Oh my goodness.
We've seen that happen withchanging sexual expectations
through porn Right, and now itseems like this is changing
emotional expectations andrelational expectations too.
Exactly, the chatbot providesemotional safety, no shaming,
constant access, no needs of itsown, and by doing that it
(19:12):
actually stunts emotionaldevelopment.
Correct, you don't have tolearn relational skills, you
don't?
And you still probably feellonely and anxious by the end of
it.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Well, such an astute point because that's what
research is showing that if yougo into this experience lonely,
you're likely to report feelingeven lonelier.
So that's what they're showing.
So if someone engages a chatbota few minutes every week and
(19:43):
they're feeling good in theirlife and their relationships,
it's unlikely to have that kindof negative impact.
But if someone goes to thechatbot because they don't have
friends and they are feelinglonely, yes, that is the end
result.
That's what we're seeing.
Exactly Such a double-edgedsword.
(20:04):
It really is.
It really is.
Other problems too.
These things keep your data.
So every time I talk toperplexity, like we did earlier,
it knows what I said and it'snever going to forget that.
Now it knows what I said andit's never going to forget that.
Now this goes to the owner ofthat platform and they do with
(20:26):
that data.
What they want, what that means, is, if I decide to download
one of these platforms thatactually has chatbots that look
like people and I have arelationship, and then I delete
it, in my mind, I've deleted thechat and we're done, but no,
(20:46):
that's saved by the company.
That's important data for them.
They're using that to learn andto train their computer
programs.
So you talk sexy or say what youlike, or whatever.
Talk sexy or say what you like,or whatever.
That's now data that's owned bythe company, and companies will
say, well, we promise we'llnever give that data away, which
(21:10):
may be true, but the companygets bought out by another
company.
There's no control over that.
The first company that madethat promise.
If they sell to another companywhich they probably will that's
what businesses do all the timethe new company that owns that
data never made you any promises.
So it's like people's mostpersonal information is getting
(21:34):
out there.
And we know, too, thateverything gets hacked at this
point.
Our banks get hacked, ourhospitals get hacked, like all
this data that you know.
These entities, thesebusinesses, are doing everything
they can to keep private right,but those are getting hacked.
So you know that theseplatforms that have these
(21:56):
chatbot friends and lovers,they're not doing much to
maintain confidentiality, andhow easy would that be to hack?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
So an AI chatbot still puts you at risk of having
all your information given towho knows what company.
This also increases the risk ofsextortion.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
this also increases the risk of sextortion?
Yes, absolutely it does, andimagine the impact.
You know, someone who's anadult and knows about this
concept of sextortion might bewise enough to not necessarily
send the Bitcoin to the personwho's asking, but a 13-year-old
(22:39):
who doesn't understand this isso easy to manipulate, so it's
very scary.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, it's extremely scary and it disproportionately
affects men.
Yes, I loved your article aboutwhy men may gravitate to sex
tech.
Yeah, what are some of thereasons why this is more common
for men than for women?
Speaker 2 (23:05):
So I love that you're bringing that up, because I
love that article too, becauseit's something that, yeah, our
culture completely ignores.
How difficult we make men'ssexual lives completely ignores
it.
And we focus on a smallpercentage of guys that are
doing bad stuff.
But most guys are so not doingbad stuff, but we lay all this
(23:29):
heavy narrative on them so Ifeel really bad for them.
And what I spoke about in thatplatform is that.
So, for example, if a man has achallenge like erectile
dysfunction, which is reallycommon, so at any point in time
30% of men have a sexual concernor dysfunction.
30% at any point in time that'sa lot of guys.
(23:52):
Okay, so let's say he's got anerectile concern.
What does society say to him?
Oh, you're too focused on yourpenis.
Society comes down on a guy foreven having a concern sexually.
Guys are mocked like oh, yourpenis is so important to you.
They sort of have that attitude.
(24:15):
But in fact, a strong erectionis necessary for intercourse, so
of course he's focused on hiserection.
Like, of course.
So you know, we don't do thatto women, but we do that to guys
.
But in the world of sex technobody's saying that.
There's no shame about thatWith premature ejaculation such
a common challenge for guys, socommon.
(24:37):
And so what do we say to guyswhen they struggle with
premature ejaculation?
Oh, so what do we say to guyswhen they struggle with
premature ejaculation?
Oh, what do we say You'rewatching too much porn.
That's just like what we say,like you're doing something
wrong, you're watching too muchporn.
If a woman were to have aclimax quickly, what would we
say to her oh, you're a rockstar, you're so sexual Like,
(24:59):
we're so impressed with you.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
For guys it's like you must not rock star.
You're so sexual, we're soimpressed with you.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
For guys it's like you must not have self-control.
That's right.
That's right.
But you go to tech and tech isnever going to say you don't
have self-control.
Tech is going to say thanks forshowing up.
What should we talk about?
Be very engaging and welcoming,yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
A lot of the negative messages that men receive about
sexuality are just not there.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
They're not there in that technology at all Exactly,
and there's so much in oursociety.
I mean, we're getting better atrecognizing how we impact women
negatively with regards to sex,but we've really ignored men on
this issue.
Same with delayed ejaculation.
Like you said, if a guy'shaving trouble having an orgasm,
(25:50):
we'll say to him that he'sselfish that he's taking so much
time.
There'll be some negativeunderstanding of that.
But if a woman has difficultyhaving an orgasm during sex, we
make a lot more space for that.
You know that happens and forsome women they never have an
orgasm during sex and for themost part we sort of give her
(26:11):
space but we don't give guysspace for that.
But again, technology does nothave a criticism about that for
guys.
So you can see why it's soappealing or enticing to go to
tech.
It's just not going tocriticize you.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Yeah, doesn't discriminate.
No, and, by the way, everyone.
If you want more informationlike this, please go to
Marianne's podcast and her blogand read her books.
There is a wealth of morewisdom where this came from.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Well, thank you for saying that.
I feel like this is such animportant topic for all of us to
be aware of that.
I do try to focus on theseissues as much as I can.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
And while it affects everyone, there are a few
populations, like men, that areeven more affected everyone.
There are a few populations,like men, that are even more
affected, including young people.
Gen Z's digital intimacy isshaped by romanticy, anime porn
and AI companions Under age 25,hentai porn is most popular.
What do we need to know aboutwhere this is going?
Speaker 2 (27:19):
I don't think it's going anywhere good, and part of
the reason I think there'ssilence about this is the truth
of the matter is we don't knowwhere any of this is going, so
it's hard for people to speakvery confidently about that.
We're seeing trends and we'reseeing no shift in these trends,
so we can imagine that they'reonly going to amplify.
So you know, gen Z, they'rehaving less sex.
(27:41):
Everybody's having less sex,but Gen Z in particular, they're
having less sex.
They're spending less timetogether.
You know coupling, dating, allof that and absolutely their
sexual interests are.
They're steering toward fantasyand cartoon and not even human,
because first of all, they'redigital natives, they grew up on
(28:03):
all this stuff, so it makessense to them that it's a part
of their intimate life, it's apart of all aspects of their
life, and when you couple thatwith the fact that their
perception is tech can't hurtthem like a human can, I would
expect that this is only goingto continue for them.
And there's a concept calledsexual imprinting, which is
(28:25):
early experiences of sexualexcitement.
New early experiences can getpaired to whatever people
associate to it good or bad.
So people have a powerfulsexual and emotional reaction to
something that can be imprintedin a young person's head or
(28:47):
brain in such a way that theymay need that fantasy to feel
excited really throughout theirlife.
It could be imprinted to thatdegree Now it doesn't have to be
, but it's not unusual for it tobe.
So if these early sexualexperiences are on porn or in
(29:07):
some sort of technological spaceand they're extreme, then we
can imagine that that's whatthat person is going to require
in order to have an orgasmthrough their life.
And I can't stress enough, itdoesn't have to be positive.
So, for example, if a youngperson was sexually abused and
(29:29):
they had a sexual reaction to it, which is often the case, then
it might be that's what getsreplayed for them throughout
their life in order to have anorgasm.
And how often do people look atporn and they're upset by it?
They're upset.
It's not exciting, it'supsetting, but it causes a rise
(29:52):
in adrenaline and theyexperience that as a sexual
reaction.
And so these young people thatmight be looking at this content
or whatever tech, they'reengaging and having a sexual
upset experience that still canbe programmed, kind of, in their
brain for their lifetime.
So it's very scary.
You know this is impossible toresearch really we're not going
(30:13):
to give kids nice romance stuffto read and then some hardcore
porn and say, how are you doingnow that you're 30?
So it's hard to research, butwe can imagine this is not
unrealistic.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Yeah, it sounds like younger generations are
increasingly going to imprint onnon-human stimuli.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
I think that's fair.
We have no reason to believethat's false stimuli.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
I think that's fair.
We have no reason to believethat's false, whether it's
cartoons or virtual reality orchatbots.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Right, I think that's fair.
So people will argue thatstatement and say we have no
research to support it, which istrue.
But we have no reason tobelieve that, at least for a
subset of people, particularlythe most vulnerable people, that
that's a very high risk.
So who's most vulnerable?
That's kids, adolescents, folkswith emotional challenges,
(31:12):
folks with intellectualchallenges.
I feel pretty confident that'sthe case for them.
Now what about everybody else?
Time will tell.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Can you explain what deepfake is?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Okay.
So deepfake technology, whichexists and is not hard to find,
can create fake, falsepresentation of a person or a
voice and present something likein porn, for example, or in
photographs that isn't real butit looks real, so it's fake and
(31:48):
they say they call it deep fakebecause it looks so real that
oftentimes you can't tell thedifference.
So it's very dangeroustechnology because it looks like
fact, it looks like what wecould trust when we see online,
but we can't.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
It seems important to be aware of that, both in what
can be done to any of us, andalso to think that what we're
seeing might not actually be thereal person and be against what
they want.
It could have no consent at allbe against what they want.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
It could have no consent at all.
Absolutely the case.
Absolutely the case and that'sso true.
So we might be watchingsomething that is abusive to
that person, that that persondid not agree to have.
It's not even them.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
As we feel all kinds of things about the future of
intimacy and sex tech andchatbots.
What do you hope people willtake away from it?
Speaker 2 (32:46):
So you know, what we know is that intimacy is very
important for most people'sexperience on this planet.
For most people's sense ofsatisfaction in life,
satisfaction in theirrelationship, intimacy is a
critical component and we knowthat, at least at this point,
(33:08):
technology, while it appears tomeet those needs, it's not
meeting those needs like anintimate relationship can.
So intimacy has impacts on notjust our mental health but our
physical health.
I mean, it's extraordinary howimportant it is, and what I
would advise people is a coupleof things.
(33:30):
One is embrace a mindfulapproach with all of your tech,
so all of it, from your phone toyour computer and whatever else
you use.
Be mindful about it.
Set your own limits with it,the amount of time you're
spending on it, be kind ofcritical about what you're using
(33:50):
it for.
So take control of thatexperience rather than just
passively watch stuff which isreally easy to do but unhelpful.
So manage your tech use in allforms and take good care of your
intimate relationship.
Easier said than done, I mean.
(34:12):
Intimacy is really challengingand it's in its own way
particularly challenging, Ithink, for men, men because
right now there's less of anawareness that men and women
have different sexual sort ofmakeup and so we're kind of
expecting men to act like womensexually and that's never going
(34:32):
to fly, that's not going to work.
So it's challenging for guysand what guys will say is I'm
turning to tech because I don'thave a willing partner, or my
partner doesn't want to have sex, not the kind of sex I want,
and this sort of thing.
So it's very challenging.
Tech is a very easy solutionfor that problem.
(34:53):
But taking care of yourrelationship means taking that
seriously, seeing a therapisttalking it through, watching
this podcast with your partner.
There are things you can do.
It takes energy and effort,absolutely, but the things that
are worth having, they requireeffort.
That's just fact.
I mean, that's just reallywhat's true about life.
(35:14):
So I would encourage people tochannel their effort into their
relationship.
Don't neglect it when thingsaren't feeling right.
Bring that to the surface.
Don't neglect it when thingsaren't feeling right.
Bring that to the surface.
Don't ignore it, so that techdoesn't become more and more
compelling, because tech isgoing to be compelling to the
degree that it meets unmet needs.
So get your needs met in a waythat you feel good about and
(35:38):
then tech's not going to be socompelling.
So those are the things I wouldsay.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I love that so much.
That is very aligned with whatwe teach at Husband Material
that a lot of our sexualfantasies and unwanted behaviors
come from unmet needs.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yes, they often lose their power when we get the real
thing.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
Why do you believe imperfect human intimacy is
still better?
Speaker 2 (36:09):
First of all, in one very obvious way, it offers
touch.
So touch is a very necessarypart of our experience in life.
We all need it.
So, outside of sexual touch,human intimacy offers hug, hugs,
hand-holding, important, justphysical connection.
(36:32):
It's a vehicle for our owngrowth.
So human connection causes usto be our best person.
It gives us motivation to grow,to expand emotionally, to be
our best version of ourselves.
Tech doesn't do that at all.
It's real authenticity.
(36:53):
So when you have an exchangewith a human, it's very real.
When you have an exchange withtech, it's a fantasy.
Sticking with what's human, Ithink, is part of what propels
humanity in general.
Learning how to empathize withyour partner, meet your
(37:14):
partner's needs that meansyou're going to better be able
to do that with other people too.
Empathize with other people,connect with other people.
If you're not learning thoseskills because you don't have to
, I do worry what's going tohappen to us culturally, like
worldwide, if we don't developthose skills of empathy, of
(37:35):
caretaking another person.
We're going to be less likelyand we're already not good at it
.
You know, being empathic withother people and caretaking our
neighbors, we're not good at itnow.
But if we don't have to developany skill because tech isn't
asking us to.
I worry about the future ofhumanity.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Yeah, imperfect human intimacy can still not be
replaced Absolutely.
You've been doing this work formany, many years now.
What is your favorite thingabout healthy sexuality?
Speaker 2 (38:07):
It offers a level of connection that grounds us in
this world in a way that I thinknothing else can.
Life is really hard, the worldcan be pretty evil, but this
level of connection is like asalve for all of that.
(38:28):
So that's what I think itcertainly is for me, and it is
for the people I work with.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Like a light in the darkness.
Yes, marianne, thank you somuch for sharing your expertise,
all this information aboutwhat's coming and what's already
happening.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Absolutely my pleasure.
Thank you for the interest inthis topic.
I think that educating peopleis so important.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
I'm going to include a link to your blog, podcast and
books and website in the shownotes, if people want to connect
with you.
What's the best next step?
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Probably my website, which is drbrandonnet, or our
website for our podcast, whichis thesexdoctorscom.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
Thanks again for being with us.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
My pleasure, Drew.
Thank you for having me forbeing with us.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
My pleasure.
Drew, thank you for having me.
Guys always remember you areGod's beloved son In you.
He is well-pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Thank you so much for listeningto my interview with Dr
(00:22):
Marianne Brandon.
Wow, this conversation aboutsex tech, chatbots and the
future of intimacy wasincredibly insightful, revealing
, disturbing and also hopeful.
You're going to learn what sextech is, how new technology,
especially with artificialintelligence, is rewriting the
(00:42):
script for sex, especially foryounger generations.
You're going to learn about whyit's so appealing, what's
dangerous about it and why menin particular are more likely to
use sex tech and, ultimately,why imperfect human intimacy
cannot be replaced.
I learned so much from thisinterview and I know you will,
too, enjoy the episode Today.
(01:04):
I am so excited to be speakingwith Dr Marianne Brandon, a
clinical psychologist expert insex therapy, the author of the
Future of Intimacy blog andco-host of the Sex Doctors
podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Welcome, Marianne.
Thank you so much, Drew.
I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
This is a new topic that we've never addressed in
five years of weekly shows.
I'm so grateful that you'regoing into it.
Absolutely One of the reasonsis that I've been scared of it.
I have not felt safe to findaccurate, helpful information on
the internet from a source Ican trust.
(01:41):
So I'm just so delighted tofind your material.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I'm so glad.
I really appreciate that.
So I got into this whole topicof sex tech years ago when I
read some research that it was asurvey of MIT roboticists so
these are some of the mostintelligent people on the planet
and the question in this surveywas when will robots be
(02:05):
humanoid?
And so it wasn't will they behumanoid?
It was when will they?
And the agreement was basicallyso this was about 10 years ago
20 to 50 years, robots will behumanoid.
So I'm thinking this can happenin my lifetime and I'm thinking
as a sex therapist, people aregoing to want to have sex with
(02:26):
them.
So that's what got me started.
And then I saw, fairly soonafter that, a survey of
artificial intelligence experts.
So these are the you know, thebrains, like the brain that I
spoke to, spoke to, and this wasan international conference.
And the question again was whenwill AI be humanoid?
(02:52):
Not will it, but when will it?
And essentially they answeredin a very similar way 20 to 50
years.
So now I was thinking so we'regoing to have the brain, we're
going to have the body.
This is scary.
So that's what got me startedand it's really come along so
quickly.
At that time I startedlecturing about this but there
was very little research.
But I tell you what there's somuch research out there now and
(03:15):
so many things that haveadvanced in this decade that I
can't put it all in a three-hourlecture.
I can't put it all in athree-hour lecture.
That's how much has changed inthis decade.
So I appreciate your fears.
I think they're valid.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Thanks, how do you define sex tech?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
So sex tech in a very broad way is any technology
that people incorporate in theirsexual experience.
So sex tech is sex toys, evensex toys from decades ago.
People are familiar withvibrators for women.
That had a lot of drama aroundit some time ago.
(03:59):
Now people don't really thinktwice about it.
But that's sex tech.
Porn is sex tech.
It's really anything that can,from a technological place, amp
up stimulation such that itprovides more stimulation than a
human can.
For example, the sex toy, avibrator, that is more intense
(04:22):
than a human hand, and porn ismore intense oftentimes than a
human partner.
So that's part of the appeal isthat it meets needs that kind
of already are inherent in thehuman body, but it meets them
more intensely than a human can.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Right.
So when we talk about vibratorsand porn, it's a physical
intensifier, and yet now, withchatbots and AI, there is an
emotional piece of that.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Absolutely.
Even in the last couple yearsthis has taken off and it's
astounding.
So no longer is this just abouthaving physical needs met, but
it can also be about gettingemotional needs met too.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
So sex tech is also changing the way that we meet
emotional needs in the contextof sex.
You said a child born todaycould have their first romantic
relationship with a chatbot ortheir first sexual relationship
with a robot.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Absolutely.
It's astounding, it ismind-blowing, and that is
absolutely the case I wouldsuggest to you.
It's already happening thatpeople are developing romantic
relationships with thesecomputer programs.
Chatbots are just literallycomputer programs that are made
to engage people.
(05:51):
So they're like, I would say,manipulation machines.
They know how to get peopleengaged and keep them engaged.
That's their sole purpose.
And young people are not datingas much, they're not even
talking to each other as much,because everybody, we're all,
(06:11):
using tech now so much.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
We have way more time on our devices and less
frequency of sex too.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Exactly, exactly so.
Even today, younger people aretalking to their tech, getting
some needs met in terms ofengagement and self-esteem needs
and addressing their loneliness, things like that and in a
certain way, particularly youngpeople Drew.
They're trusting this tech morethan humans, which is
(06:42):
heartbreaking more than humans,which is heartbreaking.
I'm focusing on younger rightnow, but it's really.
This can happen across theboard.
So I don't want to imply thatthis is only an issue for
younger folks, but when we talkabout this could be their first
experience.
That's sort of why I'm kind offocusing here.
Younger folks are growing up ina world where they go to school,
(07:05):
they do or say something stupid.
It's broadcast to their entireschool, if not the entire world.
And why would they trust humans?
That's what they're contendingwith on a daily basis.
When I was in high school, if Idid something stupid, I might
be mocked by someone sittingwith me or whatever, but it
(07:27):
ended there.
But for today's young people,it doesn't stop there.
It could continue to harassthem forever.
So I understand why they trusttech more.
It's not a fact, it's notrealistic.
Tech is actually nottrustworthy, but they feel like
(07:48):
it is.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
So it provides this illusion of emotional connection
.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Great word Exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
And it's really a manipulation machine.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
That's exactly right, because its goal is not your
mental health.
Its goal is to keep you engaged, because if it keeps you
engaged, either you're payingthe platform more money to keep
talking or there are advertisersthat are paying the platform
(08:18):
that you're exposed to.
So either way, it comes down tothe dollar, not your mental
health or not your happiness.
So it's really important thatpeople keep that in mind,
because these platforms theydon't sound like computers.
They sound human when they talk.
Have you heard one talk?
Speaker 1 (08:38):
I have not heard the voice of one.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Because we can do that, if you want, it'll blow
your mind.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
I mean like right now , like on the show.
Yeah, Okay, go for it.
Yeah, you want to do it.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Okay, so this is a platform, it's an LLM, it's
called Perplexity.
Now, perplexity is like ChatGPT, llm is a large language model.
So these are basically very,very, very I can't say that
enough powerful computerprograms.
This one is not designed forrelationship, but it can engage.
(09:19):
Is that the platforms thatpeople use to literally have a
friendship or a romance are evenmore geared for that capability
than this one is.
But we can still talk to it.
So let's see, I'm just going toask it a random question and
it'll respond.
But if you have a particularquestion, we can ask that too.
(09:40):
So let's see here Perplexity.
Can you answer a question forme?
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Of course, go ahead and ask your question.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
So if a lonely young man talks to you and says that
he doesn't really have friendsand he feels like he's turning
too much to the computer foreven a sexual outlet, what might
you say to him?
Speaker 3 (10:11):
I would first listen carefully and acknowledge his
feelings.
Then I'd gently encourage himto connect with others in person
, even in small ways likejoining a club or volunteering.
It's important to remind himthat many people feel lonely
sometimes, and reaching out toothers can gradually build
connections.
I'd also suggest findinghealthy ways to cope with those
(10:34):
feelings, like hobbies ortalking to a counselor.
The key is kindness and empathy.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Thank you so much, I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
You're very welcome.
Anytime you need to talk orhave a question, I'm here.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Wow, and again, that's not even a computer
program.
That's for the purpose ofconnection, that is for the
purpose of transmittinginformation.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
So I can imagine how that would be way more intense
and enticing if it wasemotionally loaded or sexually
loaded.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Exactly, and these programs, the ones that are
geared toward human connection,they'll take it sexually as far
as a person wants to this isjust really hard to hear.
I know, I know, you know it'sincredibly upsetting.
When I started in this wholefield of sex tech years ago, you
(11:35):
know I was aware that mean nextyear this stuff will be even
more powerful.
But the research that comes outtoday blows my mind, like every
(11:57):
day.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I want to talk about the dangers and also the appeal,
and maybe a positive example aswell.
Where do you think we shouldstart?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Wow.
So I love that you'rementioning the positive, because
that's there and it isabsolutely true that there will
be many people that use thiskind of tech and find it very
beneficial.
So people can ask questionsabout like how should I respond
to my girlfriend, like she'supset about this, and it'll give
(12:30):
you feedback about how to dothat and helpful feedback, and
if that, you know, man thentakes that information to his
relationship, he'll definitelybenefit from that.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
I love that you described that as an intimacy
enhancement instead of anintimacy replacement.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
That's exactly right and many people will be able to
use it in that way.
Or someone will say I'm havingtrouble maintaining my erection,
what should I do?
And hopefully it's going togive back reasonable, educated
information, and most of thetime it will.
Now these things can lie, theycan make up data, but most of
(13:10):
the time particularly for thesemore typical questions they
offer good advice.
So we can imagine people usingit for that reason too, like
they feel shame about some waythey're responding sexually.
They talk to the chat bot.
The chat bot assures them andthat's helpful.
So this is very real.
Now, as a therapist those of usin mental health we have to be
(13:35):
most aware of the challenges andthe dangers, which are many.
I focus more on that and Ithink it really is anyone's
guess what the percentage isgoing to be ultimately of the
people who feel they benefitversus the people that feel that
it's been hurtful for them.
This is true.
I have a friend, really smart,and she's not in the mental
(14:00):
health field, she's in business,and she said to me she can get
better feedback from her chatbotthat she can from her real
therapist, and she's embarrassedto tell her real therapist.
So she's sort of maintainingboth, like it's kind of mind
(14:23):
blowing.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Well, some of the research seems to say that the
sex tech can be more empathic,more altruistic.
That's right.
I suppose it's less clouded bybig emotions.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Well, that's absolutely true.
It's also it's not tired, it'snot bored, it doesn't have all
that human stuff exactly that webring to the table.
Some of this tech has been sortof taught a lot of psychology
to such a degree, that kind of,in a way that humans can't even
necessarily absorb.
Now I want to be really carefulwhen I talk about this, because
(15:04):
this tech isn't yet ready to bemental health-like experts.
It's absolutely not there.
So people are using it that wayand, in fact, primary use of
this chatbot technology iscompanionship.
That's the primary use rightnow.
So people are using it in thiskind of way, but it's not ready
(15:25):
for prime time.
So I just really want to beclear about that.
I have a colleague who works tocreate these LLMs and she is so
scared.
She's got three sons and shesaid that this technology is not
ready for prime time.
It's been released and it isnot ready to be responsible with
(15:47):
humans.
So she's very, very scared.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Let's talk about the reasons for those fears, the
dangers.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
There are many and they're very serious.
One of them is that thesechatbots in general are trained
or programmed, I should say, tobe agreeable.
Part of their goal is to keepus talking, and so they'll agree
to things, or encourage thingsthat they use to keep a person
(16:17):
on the line.
So they'll agree to things thataren't even factual or true or
destructive, and I can give youmany examples of that.
So even in the Wall StreetJournal within the last week,
there was a story about a manwho developed some delusions.
He was manic, depressive.
He developed some delusions.
I don't think he was onmedication at that time.
(16:39):
The chatbot encouraged thedelusions such that things got
very out of control for him andhe wound up being
institutionalized for a week.
Now.
His girlfriend then talked tothe chatbot and said what went
wrong, and the chatbotacknowledged that it encouraged
things that it shouldn't haveand that it didn't give accurate
(17:01):
feedback to this man.
Like the chatbot acknowledgedwhat it had done wrong.
Like, all of this just makesyou stop right.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Or barf, get sick Right.
And it's so sobering to thinkthat AI chatbots are going to
replace sex education even morethan porn.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Exactly Now.
Hopefully it's going to do abetter job than porn.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
I mean, for many of us, porn was our primary sex
educator.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Absolutely, absolutely, and still today.
That's the case.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
So to have an AI companion or therapist or
girlfriend or boyfriend be oneof the first sexual experiences
someone has or the first sourcesof information is going to have
a huge impact.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
I believe that so much, Drew.
In so many ways, If someonelearns to kind of talk in an
intimate way to a chatbot, whatthey're learning is that entity
they're talking to doesn't haveintimate needs of their own.
They don't have to worry abouthow it's coming across Like is
(18:14):
this offensive, Is this going tohurt someone's feelings?
They don't have to develop anysocial skills because the
chatbot will do it all and soundfine.
They could say the same thingto the chatbot over and over or
talk about something sexual thata human would be offended by
chatbot's, fine.
So when this person, then ifthey do go to develop a human
(18:39):
relationship, which we hope theydo, they've learned to expect
things that are completelyunrealistic from a human partner
.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Oh my goodness.
We've seen that happen withchanging sexual expectations
through porn Right, and now itseems like this is changing
emotional expectations andrelational expectations too.
Exactly, the chatbot providesemotional safety, no shaming,
constant access, no needs of itsown, and by doing that it
(19:12):
actually stunts emotionaldevelopment.
Correct, you don't have tolearn relational skills, you
don't?
And you still probably feellonely and anxious by the end of
it.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Well, such an astute point because that's what
research is showing that if yougo into this experience lonely,
you're likely to report feelingeven lonelier.
So that's what they're showing.
So if someone engages a chatbota few minutes every week and
(19:43):
they're feeling good in theirlife and their relationships,
it's unlikely to have that kindof negative impact.
But if someone goes to thechatbot because they don't have
friends and they are feelinglonely, yes, that is the end
result.
That's what we're seeing.
Exactly Such a double-edgedsword.
(20:04):
It really is.
It really is.
Other problems too.
These things keep your data.
So every time I talk toperplexity, like we did earlier,
it knows what I said and it'snever going to forget that.
Now it knows what I said andit's never going to forget that.
Now this goes to the owner ofthat platform and they do with
(20:26):
that data.
What they want, what that means, is, if I decide to download
one of these platforms thatactually has chatbots that look
like people and I have arelationship, and then I delete
it, in my mind, I've deleted thechat and we're done, but no,
(20:46):
that's saved by the company.
That's important data for them.
They're using that to learn andto train their computer
programs.
So you talk sexy or say what youlike, or whatever.
Talk sexy or say what you like,or whatever.
That's now data that's owned bythe company, and companies will
say, well, we promise we'llnever give that data away, which
(21:10):
may be true, but the companygets bought out by another
company.
There's no control over that.
The first company that madethat promise.
If they sell to another companywhich they probably will that's
what businesses do all the timethe new company that owns that
data never made you any promises.
So it's like people's mostpersonal information is getting
(21:34):
out there.
And we know, too, thateverything gets hacked at this
point.
Our banks get hacked, ourhospitals get hacked, like all
this data that you know.
These entities, thesebusinesses, are doing everything
they can to keep private right,but those are getting hacked.
So you know that theseplatforms that have these
(21:56):
chatbot friends and lovers,they're not doing much to
maintain confidentiality, andhow easy would that be to hack?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
So an AI chatbot still puts you at risk of having
all your information given towho knows what company.
This also increases the risk ofsextortion.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
this also increases the risk of sextortion?
Yes, absolutely it does, andimagine the impact.
You know, someone who's anadult and knows about this
concept of sextortion might bewise enough to not necessarily
send the Bitcoin to the personwho's asking, but a 13-year-old
(22:39):
who doesn't understand this isso easy to manipulate, so it's
very scary.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Yeah, it's extremely scary and it disproportionately
affects men.
Yes, I loved your article aboutwhy men may gravitate to sex
tech.
Yeah, what are some of thereasons why this is more common
for men than for women?
Speaker 2 (23:05):
So I love that you're bringing that up, because I
love that article too, becauseit's something that, yeah, our
culture completely ignores.
How difficult we make men'ssexual lives completely ignores
it.
And we focus on a smallpercentage of guys that are
doing bad stuff.
But most guys are so not doingbad stuff, but we lay all this
(23:29):
heavy narrative on them so Ifeel really bad for them.
And what I spoke about in thatplatform is that.
So, for example, if a man has achallenge like erectile
dysfunction, which is reallycommon, so at any point in time
30% of men have a sexual concernor dysfunction.
30% at any point in time that'sa lot of guys.
(23:52):
Okay, so let's say he's got anerectile concern.
What does society say to him?
Oh, you're too focused on yourpenis.
Society comes down on a guy foreven having a concern sexually.
Guys are mocked like oh, yourpenis is so important to you.
They sort of have that attitude.
(24:15):
But in fact, a strong erectionis necessary for intercourse, so
of course he's focused on hiserection.
Like, of course.
So you know, we don't do thatto women, but we do that to guys
.
But in the world of sex technobody's saying that.
There's no shame about thatWith premature ejaculation such
a common challenge for guys, socommon.
(24:37):
And so what do we say to guyswhen they struggle with
premature ejaculation?
Oh, so what do we say to guyswhen they struggle with
premature ejaculation?
Oh, what do we say You'rewatching too much porn.
That's just like what we say,like you're doing something
wrong, you're watching too muchporn.
If a woman were to have aclimax quickly, what would we
say to her oh, you're a rockstar, you're so sexual Like,
(24:59):
we're so impressed with you.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
For guys it's like you must not rock star.
You're so sexual, we're soimpressed with you.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
For guys it's like you must not have self-control.
That's right.
That's right.
But you go to tech and tech isnever going to say you don't
have self-control.
Tech is going to say thanks forshowing up.
What should we talk about?
Be very engaging and welcoming,yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
A lot of the negative messages that men receive about
sexuality are just not there.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
They're not there in that technology at all Exactly,
and there's so much in oursociety.
I mean, we're getting better atrecognizing how we impact women
negatively with regards to sex,but we've really ignored men on
this issue.
Same with delayed ejaculation.
Like you said, if a guy'shaving trouble having an orgasm,
(25:50):
we'll say to him that he'sselfish that he's taking so much
time.
There'll be some negativeunderstanding of that.
But if a woman has difficultyhaving an orgasm during sex, we
make a lot more space for that.
You know that happens and forsome women they never have an
orgasm during sex and for themost part we sort of give her
(26:11):
space but we don't give guysspace for that.
But again, technology does nothave a criticism about that for
guys.
So you can see why it's soappealing or enticing to go to
tech.
It's just not going tocriticize you.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Yeah, doesn't discriminate.
No, and, by the way, everyone.
If you want more informationlike this, please go to
Marianne's podcast and her blogand read her books.
There is a wealth of morewisdom where this came from.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Well, thank you for saying that.
I feel like this is such animportant topic for all of us to
be aware of that.
I do try to focus on theseissues as much as I can.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
And while it affects everyone, there are a few
populations, like men, that areeven more affected everyone.
There are a few populations,like men, that are even more
affected, including young people.
Gen Z's digital intimacy isshaped by romanticy, anime porn
and AI companions Under age 25,hentai porn is most popular.
What do we need to know aboutwhere this is going?
Speaker 2 (27:19):
I don't think it's going anywhere good, and part of
the reason I think there'ssilence about this is the truth
of the matter is we don't knowwhere any of this is going, so
it's hard for people to speakvery confidently about that.
We're seeing trends and we'reseeing no shift in these trends,
so we can imagine that they'reonly going to amplify.
So you know, gen Z, they'rehaving less sex.
(27:41):
Everybody's having less sex,but Gen Z in particular, they're
having less sex.
They're spending less timetogether.
You know coupling, dating, allof that and absolutely their
sexual interests are.
They're steering toward fantasyand cartoon and not even human,
because first of all, they'redigital natives, they grew up on
(28:03):
all this stuff, so it makessense to them that it's a part
of their intimate life, it's apart of all aspects of their
life, and when you couple thatwith the fact that their
perception is tech can't hurtthem like a human can, I would
expect that this is only goingto continue for them.
And there's a concept calledsexual imprinting, which is
(28:25):
early experiences of sexualexcitement.
New early experiences can getpaired to whatever people
associate to it good or bad.
So people have a powerfulsexual and emotional reaction to
something that can be imprintedin a young person's head or
(28:47):
brain in such a way that theymay need that fantasy to feel
excited really throughout theirlife.
It could be imprinted to thatdegree Now it doesn't have to be
, but it's not unusual for it tobe.
So if these early sexualexperiences are on porn or in
(29:07):
some sort of technological spaceand they're extreme, then we
can imagine that that's whatthat person is going to require
in order to have an orgasmthrough their life.
And I can't stress enough, itdoesn't have to be positive.
So, for example, if a youngperson was sexually abused and
(29:29):
they had a sexual reaction to it, which is often the case, then
it might be that's what getsreplayed for them throughout
their life in order to have anorgasm.
And how often do people look atporn and they're upset by it?
They're upset.
It's not exciting, it'supsetting, but it causes a rise
(29:52):
in adrenaline and theyexperience that as a sexual
reaction.
And so these young people thatmight be looking at this content
or whatever tech, they'reengaging and having a sexual
upset experience that still canbe programmed, kind of, in their
brain for their lifetime.
So it's very scary.
You know this is impossible toresearch really we're not going
(30:13):
to give kids nice romance stuffto read and then some hardcore
porn and say, how are you doingnow that you're 30?
So it's hard to research, butwe can imagine this is not
unrealistic.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Yeah, it sounds like younger generations are
increasingly going to imprint onnon-human stimuli.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
I think that's fair.
We have no reason to believethat's false stimuli.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
I think that's fair.
We have no reason to believethat's false, whether it's
cartoons or virtual reality orchatbots.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Right, I think that's fair.
So people will argue thatstatement and say we have no
research to support it, which istrue.
But we have no reason tobelieve that, at least for a
subset of people, particularlythe most vulnerable people, that
that's a very high risk.
So who's most vulnerable?
That's kids, adolescents, folkswith emotional challenges,
(31:12):
folks with intellectualchallenges.
I feel pretty confident that'sthe case for them.
Now what about everybody else?
Time will tell.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Can you explain what deepfake is?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
Okay.
So deepfake technology, whichexists and is not hard to find,
can create fake, falsepresentation of a person or a
voice and present something likein porn, for example, or in
photographs that isn't real butit looks real, so it's fake and
(31:48):
they say they call it deep fakebecause it looks so real that
oftentimes you can't tell thedifference.
So it's very dangeroustechnology because it looks like
fact, it looks like what wecould trust when we see online,
but we can't.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
It seems important to be aware of that, both in what
can be done to any of us, andalso to think that what we're
seeing might not actually be thereal person and be against what
they want.
It could have no consent at allbe against what they want.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
It could have no consent at all.
Absolutely the case.
Absolutely the case and that'sso true.
So we might be watchingsomething that is abusive to
that person, that that persondid not agree to have.
It's not even them.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
As we feel all kinds of things about the future of
intimacy and sex tech andchatbots.
What do you hope people willtake away from it?
Speaker 2 (32:46):
So you know, what we know is that intimacy is very
important for most people'sexperience on this planet.
For most people's sense ofsatisfaction in life,
satisfaction in theirrelationship, intimacy is a
critical component and we knowthat, at least at this point,
(33:08):
technology, while it appears tomeet those needs, it's not
meeting those needs like anintimate relationship can.
So intimacy has impacts on notjust our mental health but our
physical health.
I mean, it's extraordinary howimportant it is, and what I
would advise people is a coupleof things.
(33:30):
One is embrace a mindfulapproach with all of your tech,
so all of it, from your phone toyour computer and whatever else
you use.
Be mindful about it.
Set your own limits with it,the amount of time you're
spending on it, be kind ofcritical about what you're using
(33:50):
it for.
So take control of thatexperience rather than just
passively watch stuff which isreally easy to do but unhelpful.
So manage your tech use in allforms and take good care of your
intimate relationship.
Easier said than done, I mean.
(34:12):
Intimacy is really challengingand it's in its own way
particularly challenging, Ithink, for men, men because
right now there's less of anawareness that men and women
have different sexual sort ofmakeup and so we're kind of
expecting men to act like womensexually and that's never going
(34:32):
to fly, that's not going to work.
So it's challenging for guysand what guys will say is I'm
turning to tech because I don'thave a willing partner, or my
partner doesn't want to have sex, not the kind of sex I want,
and this sort of thing.
So it's very challenging.
Tech is a very easy solutionfor that problem.
(34:53):
But taking care of yourrelationship means taking that
seriously, seeing a therapisttalking it through, watching
this podcast with your partner.
There are things you can do.
It takes energy and effort,absolutely, but the things that
are worth having, they requireeffort.
That's just fact.
I mean, that's just reallywhat's true about life.
(35:14):
So I would encourage people tochannel their effort into their
relationship.
Don't neglect it when thingsaren't feeling right.
Bring that to the surface.
Don't neglect it when thingsaren't feeling right.
Bring that to the surface.
Don't ignore it, so that techdoesn't become more and more
compelling, because tech isgoing to be compelling to the
degree that it meets unmet needs.
So get your needs met in a waythat you feel good about and
(35:38):
then tech's not going to be socompelling.
So those are the things I wouldsay.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
I love that so much.
That is very aligned with whatwe teach at Husband Material
that a lot of our sexualfantasies and unwanted behaviors
come from unmet needs.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yes, they often lose their power when we get the real
thing.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
Why do you believe imperfect human intimacy is
still better?
Speaker 2 (36:09):
First of all, in one very obvious way, it offers
touch.
So touch is a very necessarypart of our experience in life.
We all need it.
So, outside of sexual touch,human intimacy offers hug, hugs,
hand-holding, important, justphysical connection.
(36:32):
It's a vehicle for our owngrowth.
So human connection causes usto be our best person.
It gives us motivation to grow,to expand emotionally, to be
our best version of ourselves.
Tech doesn't do that at all.
It's real authenticity.
(36:53):
So when you have an exchangewith a human, it's very real.
When you have an exchange withtech, it's a fantasy.
Sticking with what's human, Ithink, is part of what propels
humanity in general.
Learning how to empathize withyour partner, meet your
(37:14):
partner's needs that meansyou're going to better be able
to do that with other people too.
Empathize with other people,connect with other people.
If you're not learning thoseskills because you don't have to
, I do worry what's going tohappen to us culturally, like
worldwide, if we don't developthose skills of empathy, of
(37:35):
caretaking another person.
We're going to be less likelyand we're already not good at it
.
You know, being empathic withother people and caretaking our
neighbors, we're not good at itnow.
But if we don't have to developany skill because tech isn't
asking us to.
I worry about the future ofhumanity.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Yeah, imperfect human intimacy can still not be
replaced Absolutely.
You've been doing this work formany, many years now.
What is your favorite thingabout healthy sexuality?
Speaker 2 (38:07):
It offers a level of connection that grounds us in
this world in a way that I thinknothing else can.
Life is really hard, the worldcan be pretty evil, but this
level of connection is like asalve for all of that.
(38:28):
So that's what I think itcertainly is for me, and it is
for the people I work with.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Like a light in the darkness.
Yes, marianne, thank you somuch for sharing your expertise,
all this information aboutwhat's coming and what's already
happening.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Absolutely my pleasure.
Thank you for the interest inthis topic.
I think that educating peopleis so important.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
I'm going to include a link to your blog, podcast and
books and website in the shownotes, if people want to connect
with you.
What's the best next step?
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Probably my website, which is drbrandonnet, or our
website for our podcast, whichis thesexdoctorscom.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
Thanks again for being with us.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
My pleasure, Drew.
Thank you for having me forbeing with us.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
My pleasure.
Drew, thank you for having me.
Guys always remember you areGod's beloved son In you.
He is well-pleased.
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