Sexual Symptoms Of Enmeshment

What is enmeshment? How and why does mother enmeshment set men up to struggle with porn? In this episode, you'll learn ten sexual symptoms of enmeshment and how to outgrow it.

Resources mentioned in this episode (including paid links):

• Silently Seduced: When Parents Make Their Children Partners, by Ken Adams (book)
• When He's Married To Mom: How to Help Mother-Enmeshed Men Open Their Hearts to True Love and Commitment, by Ken Adams (book)
• Healing With My Parents (the podcast episode where I interviewed my parents, Yvonne and Sandy Boa, about healing as a family)

Want to outgrow enmeshment on your way to outgrowing porn?

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Thanks for listening!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Today we are talking aboutenmeshment, specifically mother

(00:24):
enmeshment, because motherenmeshment is one of the most
common experiences underneathattachment to porn for men.
There are many childhoodexperiences that contribute to
turning to porn neglect, neglect, abandonment, abuse and

(00:50):
enmeshment.
Out of all those categories,enmeshment is the most confusing
one.
It's the most difficult one toidentify and yet it is so
important.
Maybe you need to outgrowenmeshment on the way to
outgrowing porn.
So in this episode you willlearn, first of all, what is
enmeshment and what does motherenmeshment look like?
How does that set you up tostruggle with porn?

(01:12):
What are some sexual symptomsof this?
And then, finally, how do Iheal from enmeshment?
Here we go.
What is enmeshment?
Broadly speaking, it's adynamic in relationships where
the two people are depending oneach other inappropriately and

(01:34):
excessively.
So when you were a little boy,if you felt like your mom or
maybe your dad were depending onyou to meet their needs in some
way, rather than reading andresponding to your needs, then
there is an aspect of enmeshmentthere, of inappropriate

(02:00):
dependence on you as a kid.
When you grow up enmeshed,there's often a sense that mom
or dad need me, they'redepending on me, they're
counting on me and therefore Ineed to parent them.
In a way, it's almost like mymom or my dad is the child and

(02:23):
I'm taking care of them.
Or, on the other hand,enmeshment can leave you feeling
like, no matter how old you are, you still depend on mom and
dad.
The opposite of an enmeshedrelationship is a disengaged
relationship, where there's alack of closeness.
There's a lack of closeness.

(02:44):
It's distant, Maybe it'sshallow, or there's not enough
connection.
It's easier to notice when arelationship is disengaged than
when a relationship is enmeshed,because for many of us we
thought enmeshment was intimacy.
Maybe that's the version oflove you grew up with, and so

(03:07):
it's hard sometimes to tell thedifference between an enmeshed
relationship, which is alltangled up and people are overly
dependent on each other, andauthentic intimacy, or what we
might call secure attachment.
In a securely attachedrelationship, both people have a
sense of individuality andautonomy, even as they are

(03:32):
connecting and interdependent oneach other Not independent, not
dependent.
Interdependent Enmeshment iswhen you become overly dependent
.
So enmeshment is a big category.
You could be enmeshed with yourwife, with your girlfriend.

(03:54):
You could be enmeshed with yourmale friends.
You could even be enmeshed withan organization where there are
not enough clear boundaries.
Or what we're going to talkabout most today is enmeshment
between a parent and a child,which is sometimes called covert
incest, as described in thebook Silently Seduced.

(04:17):
When Parents Make theirChildren Partners by Ken Adams.
By Ken Adams, Silently Seducedis by far one of the most
difficult, disturbing andimportant books I have ever read
and is the best book aboutenmeshment that I would
recommend to all of you who wantto learn more about this.

(04:40):
First, let's talk about whatmother enmeshment looks like.
If you grew up feeling like amama's boy or man of the house,
I want you to strongly considerthe possibility of enmeshment in
your story.
And if you picked up on yourmom's stress or her suffering,
well, naturally you want to help.

(05:01):
You want to make things easierfor her.
Or maybe your mom was able toconnect with you in a way that
she wasn't able to connect withyour dad or with your other
siblings.
There are a million reasons whyyou may have become the
stereotypical mama's boy or theman of the house, and I'm not

(05:22):
judging you for that.
Boys often have very goodreasons to allow their moms to
depend on them.
If you grew up enmeshed, youmay have given up on your
interests and your dreams tomake life easier for mom.

(05:43):
You may have sacrificed timewith friends or opportunities
that you had so that you couldstay close to her or help her
with her work, and I know thatin many cultures it's normal and
important for sons to take careof their parents, for sons to

(06:05):
take care of their parents, andthat is totally appropriate for
adults.
Kids should never be put inthat position In general.
Here's what a boy needs from hismom in order to develop healthy
sexuality.
First, it's to connect.
The life of a boy begins insidehis mother's body and she

(06:26):
becomes his source ofnourishment and nurture and
ideally, as you're entering thisworld and in your first few
years of life, hopefully thatconnection is really strong.
Eventually, as you get olderand as you go through puberty,
you need to find a healthyseparation from mom so that you

(06:50):
can become a man.
However, sometimes this processgets interrupted In a healthy
mother-son relationship.
Over time, as a boy gets older,his mom learns to let him go
and to release the type ofintimate relationship and touch

(07:12):
and appropriate dependence thatshe once had with a little boy
in her arms.
But in mother enmeshment shetries to hold on.
What happens if your mom feelsthe need to be close to you,
maybe even closer than she wasto your dad?
What happens if she holds on sotightly to her connection with

(07:38):
you that you never get thathealthy separation?
Enmeshed mothers feel threatenedby their sons becoming more
independent and choosing more ofwhat they want in life.
They may even feel threatenedby a potential romantic partner.
Here's the point.

(07:58):
Some mothers have a verydifficult time letting go of
their sons to allow them to goand grow up and be adults and
make their own choices and moveaway if they want to.
And it's often because of thisinappropriate dependence,
enmeshment where therelationship exists to meet the

(08:22):
needs of the parent rather thanthose of the child.
Again, it's possible to beenmeshed with anyone, like your
dad or a friend or anorganization, but it's often
very common for men to have anenmeshed relationship with their
mothers.
Here's an example with theirmothers.

(08:47):
Here's an example.
Maybe falling asleep in bedtogether with your mom wasn't
the picture of closeness andconnection that you originally
thought it was.
Maybe that was her way ofmeeting her needs through you.
Enmeshment with a parent or withany other person is more common
than you think, and it's aperfect setup to struggle with

(09:09):
porn.
While a mother may have takencare of you and expected you to
take care of her in return, porntakes care of you and asks for
nothing in return.
In porn, you have a partner whogladly meets your needs and
then freely lets you go, with noexpectations, no obligations

(09:30):
and no feelings of beingcontrolled or smothered or
guilt-tripped or overwhelmed.
Here's another way to look atit.
In one of the earlier episodesof Husband Material years ago,
Andrew Bauman said somethingI'll never forget.
He said your mom askedeverything of you emotionally

(09:52):
and gave nothing to you sexually, while porn gives everything to
you sexually and asks nothingof you emotionally.
Here's the point.
Porn does not need you.
Your mom may have needed you,your dad may have needed you,
other people may have needed youin ways that caused you to
focus on everyone else's needsand neglect your needs, but porn

(10:15):
promises to meet your needs.
It serves the dual function ofmothering you or fathering you,
while at the same timedistancing you from real
relationships with people whohave real needs and that's part
of why it's so appealing withpeople who have real needs, and
that's part of why it's soappealing.
Porn provides a perfectcombination of symbolic intimacy

(10:35):
and symbolic autonomy, and thatautonomy piece is what's
missing in enmeshment.
That's why enmeshment,especially mother enmeshment, is
a perfect setup for boys togrow up into men who struggle
with porn.
The puzzle piece of porn fitsperfectly into the puzzle piece

(10:56):
of enmeshment, Because when youfeel engulfed by enmeshment or
overwhelmed by the needs ofother people, porn provides
escape.
It gives you autonomy.
The desire to escape beingengulfed or smothered is good.
The desire to have autonomyinstead of being controlled by

(11:17):
someone else or overwhelmed bytheir needs is good.
Guys, if we want to outgrowporn, we need to outgrow
enmeshment.
This is a core issue.
So how do you know if you haveexperienced enmeshment,
especially mother enmeshment?
This is a core issue.
So how do you know if you haveexperienced enmeshment,
especially mother enmeshment?
I'm curious if my descriptionof being a mama's boy or man of

(11:39):
the house may have resonatedwith you.
In any case, if you want tolook at your life today for
signs of enmeshment.
Here are 10 sexual symptoms ofenmeshment, specifically mother
enmeshment among men, and I'mspecifically talking about
sexual symptoms.
So there are other symptoms ofenmeshment which I'm not going

(12:01):
to talk about, such as failureto launch or living with your
parents well into adulthood.
That can be a clue thatenmeshment is present.
However, we're going to focuson the symptoms that
specifically relate to romanticrelationships and sexuality.
I recognize that not all ofthese symptoms will resonate
with everyone who hasexperienced enmeshment, and some

(12:25):
of these symptoms can have awide variety of origins, not
just in enmeshment.
Let's go through all 10symptoms.
I'm going to list them outfirst and then I'll explain each
one.
So here we go.
What are some sexual symptoms ofmother enmeshment among men?
Number one aversion to women.

(12:46):
Number two avoidance ofintimacy.
Number three inappropriateguilt.
Number four repressed anger.
Number two avoidance ofintimacy.
Number three inappropriateguilt.
Number four repressed anger.
Number five hyperattunement.
Number six low self-confidence.
Number seven emotionaldependence.
Number eight fear of commitment.

(13:06):
Number nine lack ofauthenticity.
And number 10, preference fortransactional sex.
Let's go back to number oneaversion to women.
If you felt like your momneeded you and it was your job
to take care of her, naturallyyou may develop a negative

(13:27):
association toward romanticrelationships with women.
You may experience a lack ofattraction toward women and
again, this is not the onlyreason why that can happen.
It is a common one, especiallywhen it comes to intimacy with
women.
And this is number twoavoidance of intimacy.
When you get emotionally orromantically close to a woman,

(13:50):
if it feels icky or scary orsmothering, it could be a
trigger of enmeshment, remindingyou of a relationship where the
most important woman in yourlife was depending on you for
her emotional well-being or forher survival.
It makes sense that men whogrew up enmeshed too close, so

(14:17):
to speak, would feel the needfor more distance and detachment
in relationships, especiallyromantic relationships with
women, which often connects withnumber three inappropriate
guilt.
This is one that I'veexperienced a lot feeling like
if somebody else is not okay,especially in the context of a

(14:38):
romantic relationship, it's myjob to make that person feel
better.
Here's part of why that reallykills intimacy in relationships.
Guilt implies obligation, andobligation is the opposite of
arousal.
So if you feel obligated in aromantic relationship, that is

(15:03):
going to kill any sexual arousalthat might otherwise emerge.
If you feel pressure to performas a man, if you're trying to
force a specific outcome, or ifyou feel like everything in this
relationship is my fault and soI'm the one who needs to change
.
All of the time and it's all onme that inappropriate guilt

(15:26):
might be pointing to a deeperstory of enmeshment.
Another way to describeinappropriate guilt is shoulding
all over yourself.
Many of you know that I have asign that I like to hold up,
like in this video right now,that says don't should all over

(15:47):
yourself, Because so many of uscarry inappropriate guilt and
shame, and oftentimes that goesback to a relationship with mom
where I was doing my best but itwas never good enough, because
rescuing a woman is a burden toobig for any boy to carry.

(16:09):
Men who grew up enmeshed oftenfeel the need to be a savior, to
rescue another person,especially a woman, and that is
an example of inappropriateguilt and obligation.
We are not created to besaviors.
There's already a savior namedJesus, created to be saviors.

(16:31):
There's already a savior namedJesus and he's really good at
what he does, and our job is notto save anyone or to rescue
everyone.
But when you grow up with thatconstant sense of moral
obligation and pressure andguilt, you often also feel
number four repressed anger.
Feel Number four repressedanger.

(16:55):
Ken Adams describes guilt andanger as two core experiences of
enmeshment.
On the one hand, there's asense of obligation that I
should be there for my mom orfor these people who depend on
me, or for my partner, andthere's also resentment about my
lack of freedom or what it'scosting me in order to play this

(17:16):
role.
It's common for men to thinkI'm not an angry person I never
get angry because we'verepressed our anger and that
anger can come out in differentways, including sexually.
Different ways, includingsexually.
So if inappropriate guilt oftenkills arousal, repressed anger

(17:42):
often leads to sexually actingout through porn or through some
other way of rebelling, ofretaliating against this system
of enmeshment that we feeltrapped in and smothered by and
controlled by.
And while enmeshment iscertainly a form of relational
slavery, it can also give yousuperpowers like, number five

(18:04):
hyper attunement.
If you grew up in anenvironment where you felt it
was your job to read and respondto everyone else's needs, or to
your mom's needs, for example,then you probably became hyper
attuned to the emotional statesof other people.
Maybe you become preoccupiedwith micro reactions.

(18:27):
Why is that the case?
Well, if I grew up feeling likeif mom's not okay, then I'm not
okay, then I need to behyper-attuned to her
micro-reactions.
I need to be able to sense ifshe needs something so that I
can meet that need.
It's sad that we had to developthat superpower and yet some

(18:47):
counselors and therapists havecredited their childhood of
growing up in an enmeshedrelationship, as giving them
this superpower of being able toread and respond to other
people's needs with precisionand skill.
It's something we developed inorder to survive in order to

(19:12):
survive.
Unfortunately, sometimes thishyper-attunement leads to
misreading people orpersonalizing a situation and
thinking well, if they're nothappy, it must be something that
I did, or if they don't like me, you know I should have done
something different.
Men who grew up enmeshed areoften scanning other people's
nonverbal signals to try todiscern how people are doing and
if we are safe.
We become so focused on readingthe emotions of others, while

(19:39):
we often struggle to notice andname our own emotions or to know
what we are feeling, and onebelief associated with this is
that other people's needs aremore important than mine, and
that leads us to number six lowself-confidence.
Men who grew up in mesh oftenfeel inadequate, like I'll never

(20:02):
be good enough or I'll never begood enough for her or I'll
never be good enough for him.
And I think part of this isbecause if you grew up believing
that it was your job to rescuesomeone, whether it was your mom
or someone else or your wholefamily that was an impossible
job.
You were never going to be ableto do it.
It's so sad when your beautyand strength as a boy and the

(20:25):
desire in your heart to helpothers ultimately leads to low
self-confidence because you werecarrying a burden too big for
any boy.
Men who grow up enmeshed havebeen carrying burdens since we
were little boys to try to saveothers, help others, make a

(20:48):
difference, and yet we also feellike what we're doing is never
good enough.
Sometimes enmeshed men allowthemselves to be treated really
poorly.
That was me in my firstromantic relationship.
While I was trying my hardest,I still had such low
self-confidence because, nomatter how hard I tried to love

(21:12):
my girlfriend, because it wasnever good enough for her and I
thought the problem was with me.
I judged myself based on howshe felt about me, which reveals
number seven emotionaldependence.
It's that belief I referencedearlier that if she's not okay,
then I'm not okay, or if I'm notokay, then she's not okay.

(21:35):
Enmeshed men have a tough timelearning to be okay even if
other people are not okay, andlearning that it's okay to not
be okay.
Enmeshed men have a tough timelearning that, even if other
people are not okay, I can stillbe okay in myself and in the

(22:00):
context of safe, healthyrelationships, it's okay for me
to not be okay.
I don't always have to besomeone that others can depend
on.
I don't always have to besomeone that others can depend
on.
I still remember when I was incollege, a wise older man helped
me outgrow enmeshment.
He said I don't need my wife.

(22:20):
I love her, I want her, I enjoyher, I delight in her, I pursue
her, I desire her, but I don'tneed her.
In the end, I will be okaywithout her.
I desire her, but I don't needher.
In the end, I will be okaywithout her.
That blew my mind.
I realized, oh my goodness,what I thought of as love from

(22:44):
when I was a little boy wasactually neediness.
It was over-dependence.
And that forever changed mylife To realize that in a
relationship I need to go fromthinking I need this person or
this person needs me to.
We want each other, we desireeach other, we love each other

(23:06):
and we don't need each other.
That is a huge shift that is soimportant in order to outgrow
enmeshment.
So if you experience excessiveemotional dependence on another
person or you have anotherperson excessively emotionally
depending on you, consider ifthat might be a symptom of

(23:27):
enmeshment.
Another really common one isnumber eight fear of commitment.
For men who grew up enmeshed,commitment carries with it that
sense of guilt, obligation beingsmothered, being controlled.
There's a fear of being trappedin that urge to escape,

(23:51):
controlled.
There's a fear of being trappedin that urge to escape, and
this can come out through anurge to cheat, to violate the
relationship, or maybe to gothrough a series of
relationships, whether that'sdating one person after the
other but never fully committing, or having multiple marriages.
Again, there are many reasonswhy that can happen.
Yet fear of commitment is oneof the most common symptoms and

(24:16):
if you're married and you feel aconflict between what your wife
is asking of you and what yourmother is asking of you, you may
want to check out the book whenhe's Married to Mom by Ken
Adams, and these conflictingcommitments might be evidence of
enmeshment.
Symptom number nine is one ofthe ones that makes the most

(24:39):
sense to me.
It's a lack of authenticity.
If I'm constantly focused onmeeting the needs of others, as
enmeshment are prone to do, thenit makes sense that I would
feel the need to adjust myappearance or my style of
relating in order to try my bestto fit into what the other

(25:00):
person wants.
And while that can be helpfulin certain contexts, it's also
tragic.
It's lonely, it creates abarrier between you and other
people because you neveractually share your real
thoughts and feelings, your real, authentic self.

(25:21):
And meshed men can be veryperfectionistic and feel the
need to constantly do thingsright and make people happy, and
in that there can be such alack of authenticity.
I recently learned about a bookcalled Imperfectionism and I

(25:45):
just thought that was amarvelous word.
Instead of perfectionism we canpursue imperfectionism, because
imperfection is actuallynecessary for connection.
But when you grow up enmeshed,sometimes there's not a lot of
space to be imperfect.
And finally, the last symptomand perhaps the most important

(26:06):
sexual symptom for menoutgrowing porn is number 10, a
preference for transactional sex, In other words, instead of a
real sexual relationship, whichcan be messy and imperfect or
where the other person has needsthat you might feel threatened

(26:27):
by.
Something like porn or a hookupgives you very clear
expectations, very clearboundaries, and that is very
appealing in the context ofenmeshment.
Having a sexual situation whereyou know what's going to happen

(26:48):
and what you want matters, andwhen it's done, it's done and
that's it.
There's no more guilt andobligation.
There's a lot of power in thatfor someone who often feels the
pressure to meet the needs ofothers and that's it.
Out of those 10 symptoms, howmany resonated with you?
Maybe you might want to addanother one to the list.

(27:09):
I know this is notcomprehensive.
I'm still learning about thistopic and yet I hope that some
of it may have helped to explainwhy porn and other types of
unwanted sexual behavior have somuch power, because they
symbolize the separation that weneed in the middle of
enmeshment.
Ultimately, if you haveexperienced enmeshment, what

(27:30):
does healing look like?
Here are a few suggestionsStudy your story, Study the role
enmeshment played in yourchildhood and how that may have
impacted your sexuality and,eventually, your relationship
with porn.
And as you do that, please giveyourself grace and space to

(27:54):
grieve, Because this is sodysregulating it can be
disturbing to realize the rolethat enmeshment or covert incest
may have played in your life.
For me, it was ridiculouslydysregulating Because I was
reinterpreting what I thought ofas love from the person who
loved me into existence.
Thankfully, I have been able todo a lot of work in my story

(28:19):
around this and set healthyboundaries, and that's
ultimately what enmeshed menneed.
We need healthy boundaries andhere are some examples of what
that might look like.
Especially in your relationshipwith your mom, you may want to
put boundaries around touch theway she touches you or hugs you

(28:40):
or kisses you.
This is something I had to dowith my mom and we've talked
about that in an episode ofHusband Material called Healing
with my Parents and I'll put thelink to that in the show notes
If you'd like.
There was a period of time whenI wasn't comfortable with being
kissed by my mom because it wasso triggering.
So you may need to setboundaries around touch with

(29:02):
your mom.
Also, boundaries around topics,Like if she wants to talk about
your dad and complaining abouthim, you may need to set a
boundary of saying I'm not opento that topic.
Maybe you need to set someboundaries around time If she's
constantly asking or demandingyour help in some way, or

(29:25):
boundaries around tasks thatshe's asking you to do, or maybe
things that she is doing foryou that you might not be
appreciating.
In any case, set boundaries and, in your relationships, learn
how to go from I need you to Ilove you and I don't need you.

(29:46):
Enmeshment is a type ofrelational slavery that robs you
of your sense of self, ofconnection to your own emotions
and your own desires.
So when you heal fromenmeshment, when you study your
story, give yourself grace andspace to grieve, set healthy
boundaries and learn how to havea relationship based on want

(30:09):
rather than need.
You will take ownership of whoyou are, regardless of how
someone else responds.
You will take ownership of howyou feel, not just being focused
on how everyone else feels, andyou will take ownership of what
you want as you outgrowenmeshment on your way to

(30:31):
outgrow porn.
If you want help with this, Iwould encourage you to join the
waitlist for Husband MaterialAcademy.
Go to joinhmacom.
We are going to launch a newcohort in a few months and HMA
is a great program to help youstudy your story, give yourself
grace and space, learn how totake steps toward healing and

(30:55):
redemptive risks, like settingpersonal boundaries, working on
your relationships and takingownership of who you are.
We would love to see you in HMA.
Go to joinhmacom.
Check out some of the resourcesin the show notes if you want
to learn more about enmeshment,and always remember you are
God's beloved son.
In you.
He is well pleased.