September 10, 2025 • 22 mins
Male sexually betrayed partners are often unseen, overlooked, and underresourced. Hear Ben Wilson's story of being the betrayed and the betrayer in his marriage.
Ben is a Licensed Professional Counselor with 25+ years of experience. He is trained in EMDR for trauma and Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) for couple’s counseling. Ben co-authored Betrayed and Betrayer: Rescuing Your Marriage After The Affair out of his own broken and restored marriage. Learn more about intensive counseling with Ben at restoringthesoul.com.
Read Ben's free blog with 444 posts on healing infidelity here.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thank you forlistening to my interview with
(00:21):
Ben Wilson, who is an intensiveclinical soul care specialist at
Restoring the Soul, which meansthat he has this really unique
model of working withindividuals or couples for two
full weeks at a time, whichallows some really beautiful
healing work to happen.
He has experienced that healingboth in terms of healing from
(00:45):
his wife's betrayal of him andalso his betrayal of his wife.
He is the author of Betrayedand Betrayer Rescuing your
Marriage After the Affair, andin this episode, you're going to
get some wonderful wisdom abouthealing on both sides, as well
as how this intensive model canhelp Enjoy the episode Today.
I'm so excited to introduce youall to Ben Wilson.
(01:06):
Welcome to the show.
Yeah, thanks, drew, and it wasso good to be with you at the
Restoring the Soul weekend whereI got to observe.
Can you share a little bit moreabout what that weekend is?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah, the weekend's been going on for about 12, 13
years and it's 30.
Men come in from all over thecountry for healing, for places
that they feel stuck or maybetheir lives just got flipped up
down.
A number of the men strugglewith porn and other sexual
issues and we've created ahighly experiential weekend for
them.
A lot of the meaningful workhappens in their soul group,
(01:43):
with four other men that areattending and two or three other
men leaders in the group, ofwhich you came and were a guest
leader at one of our weekends,and that was fantastic, and
we've just seen a lot, of, a lotof transformation for men as
they dig in and just take a lookat their story and walk through
their story and face shame andlies that they're dealing with.
(02:05):
That's underneath what's goingon for them.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Yeah, it was extremely powerful and I would
recommend it to anyone who wantsto make more progress on
freedom from porn and really anykind of healing.
So if I was starting recoveryfrom day one, that's how I would
want to start by going toRestoring the Soul weekend.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
It really is just privilege to be a part of.
It's always good for my soul.
You know the old saying whenone man does his work, every man
does his work, and so just forme being at that weekend, I'm
doing work as well as we guidemen through the process.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
And you've done a tremendous amount of work, both
professionally and personally.
What has been your story?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
That's a big question , my story starting off early.
Right, I learned early on thatwe moved around a lot, so I
think I lived in 10 houses bythe time I was out of elementary
school, something like that.
During that time my dad was agood athlete.
He played football in collegeat Colorado State and I picked
up golf.
He started playing golf at theend of college and then I became
(03:13):
good at that and so that becamemy identity, that I was a good
golfer and won conferences as afreshman and a couple of state
titles and then played forMissouri and we won the big
eight my senior year.
So I was blessed and I was allbig eight In the meantime, right
, drinking was also a theme inour family and all the things
that went along with that.
(03:33):
I didn't know it at the time,but you learn and those families
other dysfunctional familiesdon't talk, don't trust, don't
feel and there's nothing wronghere and don't you dare tell
anybody about it.
So I grew up with that and that.
And there were a lot of greatthings in my family too.
You know I spent a lot of timewith my dad playing golf and had
(03:56):
a lot of fun times as well,just with mom and dad.
Mom took great care of us, soit's mixed in that sense.
And so my wife and I met and sheended up having an affair off
and on.
The guy didn't live in the sametown, so it wasn't like it was
all the time.
Cell phones weren't a thing yetI'm 63, so this was a while ago
.
So she started this affair thatwent off and on and she would
(04:18):
get out at some times for sixmonths or a little more, but it
circled back around and then,unbeknownst to me, at that time
I just thought, well, I wasclose to this woman at work and
we never did anything physical,so it was okay.
And now I would call that anemotional entanglement or
emotional affair, that my heart,a lot of my heart, was going
out to this other woman, not tomy wife, and that left my wife
(04:41):
lonely.
As we did this work, weuncovered a lot of this and she
made the choices she made.
And later on, even after a lotof the early affair recovery
work, she realized she had beensexually abused as a teenager
and she had always called itbeing sexually used.
She had lived a double life along time.
(05:02):
Growing up she was one girl onthe weekend, one girl, perfect
student in all the activitiesduring the week, and so, yeah,
realized that that's how shemanaged her nervous system and
that, unbeknownst to her, justcontinued on into marriage and
that was it.
And it was a long, hard journeygetting back.
But I realized through mydealings with alcohol and facing
(05:28):
this that there was only somuch pain to deal with and I
just needed to deal with as muchas I could head on every day.
And so after about 14 monthsgot to the point where I'm like,
okay, I can forgive her and Iwant to be married to her and
that's a good thing.
And then so when I found out Iwas in seminary, right, and
thinking about being an upfrontpastor, after going through all
(05:50):
this, my chaplain in thereserves, I said I think I'm
more suited to be a counselorthan an upfront pastor.
And he said we were at abookstore and he said, well, I
would go here if I had somewhereto go.
And he picked up a copy ofLarry Crabb's Inside Out.
And that summer I think thatwas right around Christmas that
summer I was starting gradschool out here at Colorado.
(06:11):
Christian that's how I became acounselor is out of that story
Because I told him I wanted todo for other people what my
chaplain did for me, because Iwouldn't have known where to go,
what to do, anything like that.
And he said oh well, if youstart telling your story, people
are going to come out of thewoodwork to talk to you.
So I'm like, oh, I better beready.
And yep, here we are.
(06:32):
We're talking about our storystill, so it's good.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Amazing.
Your book is called Betrayedand.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Betrayer, rescuing your Marriage After the Affair,
and there's just differentmeanings to that title.
If you look on the surface andAnne's physical affair, right
that she's the betrayer, I'm thebetrayed.
But in every marriage there'sbetrayal.
That goes both ways.
And it may not be a physicalaffair, maybe in other avenues
(07:02):
right In marriage.
In marriage you live withsomebody long enough you're
going to miss the other person'sheart and it's going to hurt,
yeah.
And so in that sense it's like,yeah, I was a betrayer.
I thought not getting caught upin a deeper relationship with
that other woman kind ofcanceled it out.
But really there was a lot ofdamage done in that to myself
and to my wife.
(07:23):
So yeah, I was both, I'm bothand I think all of us are both
at different times.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
It seems really difficult for a lot of guys to
be able to say okay, that theyhave been betrayed.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, I think there's something that feels weak about
it.
I felt when I found out aboutAlan's affair after the initial
explosion and yelling andscreaming and cussing and
calling her names and all ofthat there was an element where
I just felt stupid and I feltfoolish and I did feel weak and
(07:59):
less than as a man.
It's like what's wrong with you?
Can't you keep your wife rightand satisfy your wife?
And so I think it is tough toadmit that there's a lot to
wrestle through in that space.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yeah, and then wrestling through your impact on
her at the same time.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
In that while we were looking at that part of the
betrayal for me as well notbetrayal, but once we became
Christians right, I had theincorrect thought that, ok, we
just need to have a goodChristian family and I quit
pursuing my wife as mygirlfriend and she felt that.
(08:37):
She felt that, and so that'spart of what we had to bring
back into our relationship andit's just having fun and
learning to play together againthat I had gotten too serious
about everything.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
So, yeah, I love that Learning to play again.
Yeah, yeah.
Part of the way you work withcouples is through emotionally
focused therapy EFT.
How can that?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
help.
It helps you get, as opposed tojust some tips and practices
that a couple can do.
It helps to get underneath, towhat the deeper meaning, the
deeper feelings are going on fora person.
So, in other words, when there'san explosion in a conversation,
whatever happens and often ithappens right In a thousandth of
(09:21):
a second it's just boom andsomebody goes from zero to 100
and they're off and running andit's usually tied to other
things in the past maybe pastfrom this relationship, but more
often other things as well,from when the person was younger
.
And so it's taking that momentof boom and that initial thought
(09:43):
of, oh, here we go again, orwhatever it is, and going deeper
underneath it and getting downto the misconceptions that are
going on at that point and thedeeper feelings that are going
on at that point for the person,and that's healing.
And then, instead of seeing thespouse as the bad person, you
know, if both people are doingthis process, it gets them back
(10:06):
on the same side and saying, oh,I need to look at my stuff and
you look at your stuff and wecan look how that stuff comes
together to get in the way of usconnecting.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Is that something you do intensively in these two
week couples intensives.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah, that's always a part of it.
That's always a part of it.
It just depends on the formatof what we're doing, but that's
always what I'm doing is goingfor for the deeper meaning,
deeper feelings that are goingjust like in in your book
outgrow porn.
It's like that's, that's right.
Where you are, it's like hey,it's not about the action, it's
(10:43):
about the shame and lies thatyou're dealing with.
And what was?
Flaws, fears, lies, originstories, sadness and what was
the last S?
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Surrender.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Surrender.
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's it insome form.
I really liked that, that wasreally good.
I mean that's it in some form,I really liked that, that was
really good.
And so, yeah, so we do that.
I do internal family systems,which is another way to get at
that, and so it's always aboutjust moving around for the best
way to help that person getdeeper inside to what's going on
and help the exiles inside healRight and help the protectors
(11:18):
relax so can live more of whothey were originally created to
be.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, thanks.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
It's one thing to do that individually.
It feels like a whole otherballgame to do that as a couple.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yeah, so one format we have called a blended is the
first week a couple will come inand I'll meet with the husband
or the wife for three hours inthe morning and then the other
one for three hours in theafternoon, and so doing that
individual work the first weekhelps calm their nervous systems
down and helps them get intouch with themselves and gives
(11:54):
them a much better chance tomake better use.
And really, and then the secondweek I'll meet with them as a
couple and really helps makethat second week very productive
in most, most cases.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah, that's awesome.
So restoring the soul is sounique in this intensive format.
Why do you take people for twoweeks at a time?
Speaker 2 (12:16):
It's amazing how fast 15 hours goes.
If you just do one week right,it's you're just getting started
and then you're, you're, you'repowering down and so really, if
there's any trauma involved atall, you really need that second
week and the time to exploreand to pursue healing in those
(12:37):
areas.
And you know, two-weekintensive isn't going to fix and
solve somebody's life, right,but you can make a big hunk of
process.
It's kind of the equivalent ofabout eight months of counseling
or more, and so that's a lot.
That's a lot in a two-weekperiod and I like three hours a
day versus an hour.
Gives you time to explore andyou develop a rhythm and
(13:01):
momentum in pursuing importantissues in a person's soul,
important issues in a person'ssoul.
I like individual weeklycounseling too.
There's a place for that and itcan be very valuable.
And I like this intensive modelas well for individuals and
couples who are more at the endof their rope and really ready
to dive in in most cases.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
And what do you see as the core issues underneath
betrayal?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
The one thing that I didn't know, that I've learned
and through IFS, and that isthat the deeper longings and the
wounds and shame combine as acocktail to override somebody's
stated belief, and then they endup in a relationship or other
area doing things that theydon't believe in doing, but
(13:49):
somehow their soul yearnsforward at that moment and with
the wounds and with the shame,with the lies, it's like they
make those decisions to moveforward with that, especially
when there's another person whomight be persistent, who's
involved.
So I think that's one thing isjust that there are good
longings underneath affairs andit's easy to kind of paint that
(14:09):
person as, oh, that person's bad, they're evil, they're sinners,
they're backslidden, and itjust doesn't just service and
it's like, yeah, is it sin?
Of course, but that's just notthe most helpful direction to go
.
When starting out, especiallywhen thinking about helping that
person rescue their heart andsoul, it's like, okay, really
(14:34):
starting in what are you after?
That's good, right.
And taking a look about whatwas it about this direction that
you went that way.
And so you're looking insomebody's story and how they
were wounded a lot of times andjust how they navigated life,
how they developed a certainstyle of relating to get through
life and somehow thatdisconnected them from their
core heart in that, yeah,anytime we're wearing masks, we
(14:56):
can't give or receive love.
That love just hits the maskand goes to the ground and so,
but somehow the affair kind ofruns around and around around
that mask and gets to a person'sheart and so you have the
fantasy of an affair, you know,relationship.
You're not doing laundry,you're not paying bills, you're
not dealing with all the messesof life, and it does seem like a
(15:19):
fairy tale a lot of times, like, oh, this is how life is
supposed to go.
And the truth is there's partof each of us that is built for
that.
You know, there weren'tsupposed to be thorns and
thistles to deal with, right,but we have them, we have them
and we have to deal with them.
So I think that, and just,shame and lies are always there.
What do you believe aboutmyself?
(15:40):
Questions, am I really lovable?
You know, can a woman reallyadmire me?
Those kinds of things, rightand acceptance.
Oh well, I was just accepted,no questions asked, and you know
she didn't get mad at me likemy wife does, and that felt
really great.
So, and for my wife it was.
(16:01):
I worked a lot after we moved.
After I got sober, I felt likeI've got to wake up and prove
myself as a man, and so I workeda lot and focused a lot there.
And you know this guy comingfrom out of town, he was on his
company's dime and he had allthe time in the world to listen
to her to do that, and so thatfelt great to her Like oh,
here's a man who really listensto me.
(16:21):
Whereas I worked in a job whereI listened to men and women all
day long for 60 hours, right,job where I listened to men and
women all day long for 60 hours,right In a transportation
company, I got home I was readyto not talk and not listen, and
so that was hard and we reallydidn't know how to navigate that
or even talk about that verywell at that point.
So I found out about the affairwhen I was almost 33.
(16:44):
So it was that frame for us.
The affair went on when she waslike 28 to 31, somewhere in
that ballpark which I think Iwould imagine that's where a lot
of the men coming to help withporn are with you, not that
there's not older men or youngermen, but yeah, and my heart
(17:04):
really breaks for men who havebeen cheated on as well.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Sometimes guys will say that their own behavior
means that they deserved it.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah, yeah, that's really difficult for somebody in
that situation.
But I would say we all have theability to make our choices.
We all have the ability to makeour choices.
And, yes, being betrayed cancertainly lead the deep pain and
anger can lead to a desire toget even Right and to respond
(17:36):
and do that and most of the timethat just creates a bigger pile
of junk to go through and it'snot really helpful.
It's like, really, you justwent out and had anonymous sex
to get even and obviously that'snot good for a person's soul,
right?
So there is a place like with mywife, we didn't name my
notional affair until we were inthe middle of dealing with her
(17:59):
affair and it was tough for herto be angry about it at that
point because of what she haddone.
So and yet there was still deep, deep damage and that I did to
her in that.
And so as working through it,working through it as much as
possible emotions are really rawand can go high and low a lot
(18:21):
in the situation, but as much aspossible, focus the topic down
to one or the other and make itas small as possible to discuss,
right, ok, are we going to talkabout how you responded, or are
you going to talk about what Idid and keep the conversation
over there and if something elsecomes in, to learn to say
(18:41):
that's really important?
But we agree to stay focused onthis topic here.
So let's write that down.
We'll get back to it, but let'sfocused on this topic here.
So let's write that down.
We'll get back to it, but let'sfocus on this conversation.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Seems like that makes sure that both people get fully
heard.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yeah, yeah, that's so important, isn't it, for both
people to feel fully heard,especially recovering from
betrayal.
I mean, there's a lot of angerand some days are good and some
days are really hard, and somedays are good and some days are
really hard and some days arefilled with hope and some days
it feels hopeless.
So it's a long recovery andwith lots of ups and downs and I
(19:16):
just generally am looking forthe general trend.
You know, in the ups and downsis it generally upward, and
that's the way it was for Anneand I and we kept track of that,
and some days were hard.
There was actually a point sixor seven months in where I
called a friend who was a lawyerand I said I can't do this
anymore.
And fortunately I called theright guy because he he dealt
(19:40):
with divorces Right and his workas a lawyer and he knew me, he
knew Ann and he said Ben, ifthere's any way, stay.
He said I go through this withpeople.
It always gets harder and worse.
They think they'll be able tojust do it, but emotions flare
up and then it gets mean and itgets nasty.
(20:00):
He said, if there's any way,stay and keep working on it.
And those are real words oflife for me and a real turning
point in my life for him to turnme back in that way.
That's so beautiful.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Ben, what is your favorite thing about healing?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Just how God takes our screw-ups and our mess and
our big pile of trash anddumpster fire and just brings
his grace to it and makesomething beautiful out of it.
There's redemption andresurrection out of what
seemingly had no value.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah, redemption and resurrection.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
There you go so good and when you're a counselor one
of the beautiful things about it.
People say how can you listento all that hard stuff all day?
Well, the other side of that isI get a front row seat to God
at work in people's lives everyday too, and that's worshipful
when you see that right in frontof you and somebody surrender
(20:58):
right to that love and thattruth that's going on right
there.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
So yeah, I experienced the same thing.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yeah, exactly yeah, and you guide a lot of men to
that and that's wonderful Thanks.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Ben, if people want to connect with you or with
Restoring the Soul, what shouldthey do?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Restoringthesoulcom is the easiest way to do that
and they can email me at ben atrestoringthesoulcom.
So yeah, and if they'reinterested in an intensive, they
can go to restoring the souldot com and there's an initial
form on there that they can fillout if they're interested and
then somebody will get back withthem and start that process.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Both for individuals and couples right.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yes, for both.
Yep.
Yep.
Sometimes we have individualscome, sometimes the couples come
together.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
I'll put the links to all of that, as well as the
Restoring the Soul weekend, inthe show notes.
Ben, thank you so much forbeing with us.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yeah, thanks, Drew.
It's good talking to you again.
It was good hanging out withyou down at the weekend.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah, you too, not too far away, just down the road
in Colorado.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
That's right.
Right in Colorado Springs, soyeah.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Guys, thanks for listening and always remember
you are God's beloved son andyou he is well pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thank you forlistening to my interview with
(00:21):
Ben Wilson, who is an intensiveclinical soul care specialist at
Restoring the Soul, which meansthat he has this really unique
model of working withindividuals or couples for two
full weeks at a time, whichallows some really beautiful
healing work to happen.
He has experienced that healingboth in terms of healing from
(00:45):
his wife's betrayal of him andalso his betrayal of his wife.
He is the author of Betrayedand Betrayer Rescuing your
Marriage After the Affair, andin this episode, you're going to
get some wonderful wisdom abouthealing on both sides, as well
as how this intensive model canhelp Enjoy the episode Today.
I'm so excited to introduce youall to Ben Wilson.
(01:06):
Welcome to the show.
Yeah, thanks, drew, and it wasso good to be with you at the
Restoring the Soul weekend whereI got to observe.
Can you share a little bit moreabout what that weekend is?
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah, the weekend's been going on for about 12, 13
years and it's 30.
Men come in from all over thecountry for healing, for places
that they feel stuck or maybetheir lives just got flipped up
down.
A number of the men strugglewith porn and other sexual
issues and we've created ahighly experiential weekend for
them.
A lot of the meaningful workhappens in their soul group,
(01:43):
with four other men that areattending and two or three other
men leaders in the group, ofwhich you came and were a guest
leader at one of our weekends,and that was fantastic, and
we've just seen a lot, of, a lotof transformation for men as
they dig in and just take a lookat their story and walk through
their story and face shame andlies that they're dealing with.
(02:05):
That's underneath what's goingon for them.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Yeah, it was extremely powerful and I would
recommend it to anyone who wantsto make more progress on
freedom from porn and really anykind of healing.
So if I was starting recoveryfrom day one, that's how I would
want to start by going toRestoring the Soul weekend.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
It really is just privilege to be a part of.
It's always good for my soul.
You know the old saying whenone man does his work, every man
does his work, and so just forme being at that weekend, I'm
doing work as well as we guidemen through the process.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
And you've done a tremendous amount of work, both
professionally and personally.
What has been your story?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
That's a big question , my story starting off early.
Right, I learned early on thatwe moved around a lot, so I
think I lived in 10 houses bythe time I was out of elementary
school, something like that.
During that time my dad was agood athlete.
He played football in collegeat Colorado State and I picked
up golf.
He started playing golf at theend of college and then I became
(03:13):
good at that and so that becamemy identity, that I was a good
golfer and won conferences as afreshman and a couple of state
titles and then played forMissouri and we won the big
eight my senior year.
So I was blessed and I was allbig eight In the meantime, right
, drinking was also a theme inour family and all the things
that went along with that.
(03:33):
I didn't know it at the time,but you learn and those families
other dysfunctional familiesdon't talk, don't trust, don't
feel and there's nothing wronghere and don't you dare tell
anybody about it.
So I grew up with that and that.
And there were a lot of greatthings in my family too.
You know I spent a lot of timewith my dad playing golf and had
(03:56):
a lot of fun times as well,just with mom and dad.
Mom took great care of us, soit's mixed in that sense.
And so my wife and I met and sheended up having an affair off
and on.
The guy didn't live in the sametown, so it wasn't like it was
all the time.
Cell phones weren't a thing yetI'm 63, so this was a while ago
.
So she started this affair thatwent off and on and she would
(04:18):
get out at some times for sixmonths or a little more, but it
circled back around and then,unbeknownst to me, at that time
I just thought, well, I wasclose to this woman at work and
we never did anything physical,so it was okay.
And now I would call that anemotional entanglement or
emotional affair, that my heart,a lot of my heart, was going
out to this other woman, not tomy wife, and that left my wife
(04:41):
lonely.
As we did this work, weuncovered a lot of this and she
made the choices she made.
And later on, even after a lotof the early affair recovery
work, she realized she had beensexually abused as a teenager
and she had always called itbeing sexually used.
She had lived a double life along time.
(05:02):
Growing up she was one girl onthe weekend, one girl, perfect
student in all the activitiesduring the week, and so, yeah,
realized that that's how shemanaged her nervous system and
that, unbeknownst to her, justcontinued on into marriage and
that was it.
And it was a long, hard journeygetting back.
But I realized through mydealings with alcohol and facing
(05:28):
this that there was only somuch pain to deal with and I
just needed to deal with as muchas I could head on every day.
And so after about 14 monthsgot to the point where I'm like,
okay, I can forgive her and Iwant to be married to her and
that's a good thing.
And then so when I found out Iwas in seminary, right, and
thinking about being an upfrontpastor, after going through all
(05:50):
this, my chaplain in thereserves, I said I think I'm
more suited to be a counselorthan an upfront pastor.
And he said we were at abookstore and he said, well, I
would go here if I had somewhereto go.
And he picked up a copy ofLarry Crabb's Inside Out.
And that summer I think thatwas right around Christmas that
summer I was starting gradschool out here at Colorado.
(06:11):
Christian that's how I became acounselor is out of that story
Because I told him I wanted todo for other people what my
chaplain did for me, because Iwouldn't have known where to go,
what to do, anything like that.
And he said oh well, if youstart telling your story, people
are going to come out of thewoodwork to talk to you.
So I'm like, oh, I better beready.
And yep, here we are.
(06:32):
We're talking about our storystill, so it's good.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Amazing.
Your book is called Betrayedand.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Betrayer, rescuing your Marriage After the Affair,
and there's just differentmeanings to that title.
If you look on the surface andAnne's physical affair, right
that she's the betrayer, I'm thebetrayed.
But in every marriage there'sbetrayal.
That goes both ways.
And it may not be a physicalaffair, maybe in other avenues
(07:02):
right In marriage.
In marriage you live withsomebody long enough you're
going to miss the other person'sheart and it's going to hurt,
yeah.
And so in that sense it's like,yeah, I was a betrayer.
I thought not getting caught upin a deeper relationship with
that other woman kind ofcanceled it out.
But really there was a lot ofdamage done in that to myself
and to my wife.
(07:23):
So yeah, I was both, I'm bothand I think all of us are both
at different times.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
It seems really difficult for a lot of guys to
be able to say okay, that theyhave been betrayed.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, I think there's something that feels weak about
it.
I felt when I found out aboutAlan's affair after the initial
explosion and yelling andscreaming and cussing and
calling her names and all ofthat there was an element where
I just felt stupid and I feltfoolish and I did feel weak and
(07:59):
less than as a man.
It's like what's wrong with you?
Can't you keep your wife rightand satisfy your wife?
And so I think it is tough toadmit that there's a lot to
wrestle through in that space.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yeah, and then wrestling through your impact on
her at the same time.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
In that while we were looking at that part of the
betrayal for me as well notbetrayal, but once we became
Christians right, I had theincorrect thought that, ok, we
just need to have a goodChristian family and I quit
pursuing my wife as mygirlfriend and she felt that.
(08:37):
She felt that, and so that'spart of what we had to bring
back into our relationship andit's just having fun and
learning to play together againthat I had gotten too serious
about everything.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
So, yeah, I love that Learning to play again.
Yeah, yeah.
Part of the way you work withcouples is through emotionally
focused therapy EFT.
How can that?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
help.
It helps you get, as opposed tojust some tips and practices
that a couple can do.
It helps to get underneath, towhat the deeper meaning, the
deeper feelings are going on fora person.
So, in other words, when there'san explosion in a conversation,
whatever happens and often ithappens right In a thousandth of
(09:21):
a second it's just boom andsomebody goes from zero to 100
and they're off and running andit's usually tied to other
things in the past maybe pastfrom this relationship, but more
often other things as well,from when the person was younger
.
And so it's taking that momentof boom and that initial thought
(09:43):
of, oh, here we go again, orwhatever it is, and going deeper
underneath it and getting downto the misconceptions that are
going on at that point and thedeeper feelings that are going
on at that point for the person,and that's healing.
And then, instead of seeing thespouse as the bad person, you
know, if both people are doingthis process, it gets them back
(10:06):
on the same side and saying, oh,I need to look at my stuff and
you look at your stuff and wecan look how that stuff comes
together to get in the way of usconnecting.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Is that something you do intensively in these two
week couples intensives.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah, that's always a part of it.
That's always a part of it.
It just depends on the formatof what we're doing, but that's
always what I'm doing is goingfor for the deeper meaning,
deeper feelings that are goingjust like in in your book
outgrow porn.
It's like that's, that's right.
Where you are, it's like hey,it's not about the action, it's
(10:43):
about the shame and lies thatyou're dealing with.
And what was?
Flaws, fears, lies, originstories, sadness and what was
the last S?
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Surrender.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Surrender.
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's it insome form.
I really liked that, that wasreally good.
I mean that's it in some form,I really liked that, that was
really good.
And so, yeah, so we do that.
I do internal family systems,which is another way to get at
that, and so it's always aboutjust moving around for the best
way to help that person getdeeper inside to what's going on
and help the exiles inside healRight and help the protectors
(11:18):
relax so can live more of whothey were originally created to
be.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, thanks.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
It's one thing to do that individually.
It feels like a whole otherballgame to do that as a couple.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yeah, so one format we have called a blended is the
first week a couple will come inand I'll meet with the husband
or the wife for three hours inthe morning and then the other
one for three hours in theafternoon, and so doing that
individual work the first weekhelps calm their nervous systems
down and helps them get intouch with themselves and gives
(11:54):
them a much better chance tomake better use.
And really, and then the secondweek I'll meet with them as a
couple and really helps makethat second week very productive
in most, most cases.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah, that's awesome.
So restoring the soul is sounique in this intensive format.
Why do you take people for twoweeks at a time?
Speaker 2 (12:16):
It's amazing how fast 15 hours goes.
If you just do one week right,it's you're just getting started
and then you're, you're, you'repowering down and so really, if
there's any trauma involved atall, you really need that second
week and the time to exploreand to pursue healing in those
(12:37):
areas.
And you know, two-weekintensive isn't going to fix and
solve somebody's life, right,but you can make a big hunk of
process.
It's kind of the equivalent ofabout eight months of counseling
or more, and so that's a lot.
That's a lot in a two-weekperiod and I like three hours a
day versus an hour.
Gives you time to explore andyou develop a rhythm and
(13:01):
momentum in pursuing importantissues in a person's soul,
important issues in a person'ssoul.
I like individual weeklycounseling too.
There's a place for that and itcan be very valuable.
And I like this intensive modelas well for individuals and
couples who are more at the endof their rope and really ready
to dive in in most cases.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
And what do you see as the core issues underneath
betrayal?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
The one thing that I didn't know, that I've learned
and through IFS, and that isthat the deeper longings and the
wounds and shame combine as acocktail to override somebody's
stated belief, and then they endup in a relationship or other
area doing things that theydon't believe in doing, but
(13:49):
somehow their soul yearnsforward at that moment and with
the wounds and with the shame,with the lies, it's like they
make those decisions to moveforward with that, especially
when there's another person whomight be persistent, who's
involved.
So I think that's one thing isjust that there are good
longings underneath affairs andit's easy to kind of paint that
(14:09):
person as, oh, that person's bad, they're evil, they're sinners,
they're backslidden, and itjust doesn't just service and
it's like, yeah, is it sin?
Of course, but that's just notthe most helpful direction to go
.
When starting out, especiallywhen thinking about helping that
person rescue their heart andsoul, it's like, okay, really
(14:34):
starting in what are you after?
That's good, right.
And taking a look about whatwas it about this direction that
you went that way.
And so you're looking insomebody's story and how they
were wounded a lot of times andjust how they navigated life,
how they developed a certainstyle of relating to get through
life and somehow thatdisconnected them from their
core heart in that, yeah,anytime we're wearing masks, we
(14:56):
can't give or receive love.
That love just hits the maskand goes to the ground and so,
but somehow the affair kind ofruns around and around around
that mask and gets to a person'sheart and so you have the
fantasy of an affair, you know,relationship.
You're not doing laundry,you're not paying bills, you're
not dealing with all the messesof life, and it does seem like a
(15:19):
fairy tale a lot of times, like, oh, this is how life is
supposed to go.
And the truth is there's partof each of us that is built for
that.
You know, there weren'tsupposed to be thorns and
thistles to deal with, right,but we have them, we have them
and we have to deal with them.
So I think that, and just,shame and lies are always there.
What do you believe aboutmyself?
(15:40):
Questions, am I really lovable?
You know, can a woman reallyadmire me?
Those kinds of things, rightand acceptance.
Oh well, I was just accepted,no questions asked, and you know
she didn't get mad at me likemy wife does, and that felt
really great.
So, and for my wife it was.
(16:01):
I worked a lot after we moved.
After I got sober, I felt likeI've got to wake up and prove
myself as a man, and so I workeda lot and focused a lot there.
And you know this guy comingfrom out of town, he was on his
company's dime and he had allthe time in the world to listen
to her to do that, and so thatfelt great to her Like oh,
here's a man who really listensto me.
(16:21):
Whereas I worked in a job whereI listened to men and women all
day long for 60 hours, right,job where I listened to men and
women all day long for 60 hours,right In a transportation
company, I got home I was readyto not talk and not listen, and
so that was hard and we reallydidn't know how to navigate that
or even talk about that verywell at that point.
So I found out about the affairwhen I was almost 33.
(16:44):
So it was that frame for us.
The affair went on when she waslike 28 to 31, somewhere in
that ballpark which I think Iwould imagine that's where a lot
of the men coming to help withporn are with you, not that
there's not older men or youngermen, but yeah, and my heart
(17:04):
really breaks for men who havebeen cheated on as well.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Sometimes guys will say that their own behavior
means that they deserved it.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Yeah, yeah, that's really difficult for somebody in
that situation.
But I would say we all have theability to make our choices.
We all have the ability to makeour choices.
And, yes, being betrayed cancertainly lead the deep pain and
anger can lead to a desire toget even Right and to respond
(17:36):
and do that and most of the timethat just creates a bigger pile
of junk to go through and it'snot really helpful.
It's like, really, you justwent out and had anonymous sex
to get even and obviously that'snot good for a person's soul,
right?
So there is a place like with mywife, we didn't name my
notional affair until we were inthe middle of dealing with her
(17:59):
affair and it was tough for herto be angry about it at that
point because of what she haddone.
So and yet there was still deep, deep damage and that I did to
her in that.
And so as working through it,working through it as much as
possible emotions are really rawand can go high and low a lot
(18:21):
in the situation, but as much aspossible, focus the topic down
to one or the other and make itas small as possible to discuss,
right, ok, are we going to talkabout how you responded, or are
you going to talk about what Idid and keep the conversation
over there and if something elsecomes in, to learn to say
(18:41):
that's really important?
But we agree to stay focused onthis topic here.
So let's write that down.
We'll get back to it, but let'sfocused on this topic here.
So let's write that down.
We'll get back to it, but let'sfocus on this conversation.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Seems like that makes sure that both people get fully
heard.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yeah, yeah, that's so important, isn't it, for both
people to feel fully heard,especially recovering from
betrayal.
I mean, there's a lot of angerand some days are good and some
days are really hard, and somedays are good and some days are
really hard and some days arefilled with hope and some days
it feels hopeless.
So it's a long recovery andwith lots of ups and downs and I
(19:16):
just generally am looking forthe general trend.
You know, in the ups and downsis it generally upward, and
that's the way it was for Anneand I and we kept track of that,
and some days were hard.
There was actually a point sixor seven months in where I
called a friend who was a lawyerand I said I can't do this
anymore.
And fortunately I called theright guy because he he dealt
(19:40):
with divorces Right and his workas a lawyer and he knew me, he
knew Ann and he said Ben, ifthere's any way, stay.
He said I go through this withpeople.
It always gets harder and worse.
They think they'll be able tojust do it, but emotions flare
up and then it gets mean and itgets nasty.
(20:00):
He said, if there's any way,stay and keep working on it.
And those are real words oflife for me and a real turning
point in my life for him to turnme back in that way.
That's so beautiful.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Ben, what is your favorite thing about healing?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Just how God takes our screw-ups and our mess and
our big pile of trash anddumpster fire and just brings
his grace to it and makesomething beautiful out of it.
There's redemption andresurrection out of what
seemingly had no value.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah, redemption and resurrection.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
There you go so good and when you're a counselor one
of the beautiful things about it.
People say how can you listento all that hard stuff all day?
Well, the other side of that isI get a front row seat to God
at work in people's lives everyday too, and that's worshipful
when you see that right in frontof you and somebody surrender
(20:58):
right to that love and thattruth that's going on right
there.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
So yeah, I experienced the same thing.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yeah, exactly yeah, and you guide a lot of men to
that and that's wonderful Thanks.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Ben, if people want to connect with you or with
Restoring the Soul, what shouldthey do?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Restoringthesoulcom is the easiest way to do that
and they can email me at ben atrestoringthesoulcom.
So yeah, and if they'reinterested in an intensive, they
can go to restoring the souldot com and there's an initial
form on there that they can fillout if they're interested and
then somebody will get back withthem and start that process.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Both for individuals and couples right.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yes, for both.
Yep.
Yep.
Sometimes we have individualscome, sometimes the couples come
together.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
I'll put the links to all of that, as well as the
Restoring the Soul weekend, inthe show notes.
Ben, thank you so much forbeing with us.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Yeah, thanks, Drew.
It's good talking to you again.
It was good hanging out withyou down at the weekend.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah, you too, not too far away, just down the road
in Colorado.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
That's right.
Right in Colorado Springs, soyeah.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Guys, thanks for listening and always remember
you are God's beloved son andyou he is well pleased.
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