January 20, 2025 • 24 mins
What does your wife need when you relapse into porn, unwanted sexual behavior, and breaking her trust? Tammy Gustafson explains what is going on inside your wife when you relapse, how you can helpful rather than hurtful, and why it's wise for your wife to have a relapse safety plan.
Tammy Gustafson is the founder of the Betrayal Healing Conference. This free conference is for all women who have experienced sexual betrayal, whether you just found out about his acting out, your relationship is healing, or you are divorced and are picking up the pieces. Husband Material is partnering with Betrayal Healing to promote this amazing event! Register here.
Tammy is also a Licensed Professional Counselor, coach, EMDR certified clinician, and speaker with 15 years of experience. She is passionate about helping women find their strength and pick up the pieces of their broken hearts after sexual betrayal so that they are able to see beauty, joy, and adventure again.
Tammy and Nathaniel Gustafson co-lead a monthly webinar series called Both Sides Of The Story. Highly recommended! Check it out here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Today, I am so excited to betalking with Tammy Gustafson,
(00:23):
who is the founder of theBetrayal Healing Conference.
Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Thanks, happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
I'm really excited for everyone to hear from you
again.
Last year, our interview wasthe most popular episode of
Husband Material about what todo when your wife is triggered,
and today we're going to talkabout what your wife needs from
you if and when you relapse.
Timmy, I feel like it would bereally helpful for everyone to
(00:52):
get caught up on your story andwhy this matters so much.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, so actually 10 years ago today, today is the
anniversary of D-Day for us.
Today, today is the anniversaryof D-Day for us.
So I thought that Nathaniel andI had a perfect marriage, kind
of very naively and arrogantlyperhaps.
And then, a decade almost intoour marriage, life flew up and
where Nathaniel came clean abouthis sexual integrity issues and
(01:19):
it shattered me.
It shattered me.
Our marriage was hanging on byan absolute thread for a long
time as we dove in and asNathaniel did the really hard
work of healing and also, ofcourse, I mean hard work on my
side and betrayed partner sideas well.
But we did lean in fast forward.
(01:40):
Our marriage made it, I made it, nathaniel made it.
And so I actually never wantedto use my story, never wanted to
talk about my story, any ofthat.
But over time doors opened andit slowly became my passion, and
so it is my passion to helpbetrayed partners heal.
(02:00):
I mean to pick up the brokenpieces of their heart, but then
also to know that they can, thatthere is strength, that there's
freedom, that there's beauty,adventure and joy in the world,
and so to help them get to thatother side.
But this topic, I think, is socrucial because, as I work with
women, that the initial betrayaland discovery is so devastating
(02:24):
.
Of course, the initial betrayaland discovery is so devastating
, of course, but where I seewomen start to lose themselves
and where I start to see theirlights go out is in this area of
if there's constant relapse.
So it's a really superimportant topic, so I'm so glad
we're talking about it.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yeah, and there's no one I'd rather hear from about
this topic than you, tammy.
What is going on inside a womanwhen her husband relapses?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I'm going to back up a little bit when that initial
discovery happens and all ofthat, like that shattering is so
deep.
But then when she hangs inthere and she stays and she's
like I love him or I want themarriage, I don't want this to
end.
I'm willing to do the work topick up the pieces and to heal
(03:11):
and start to lean in and startto trust again.
When a relapse happens, it isabsolutely devastating.
It's absolutely devastatingno-transcript.
(03:51):
Then everything starts over.
Then you are literally back atsquare one.
I know some people and I don'tget into all the if we are we
going to call it a slip?
Are we going to call it arelapse?
All that kind of stuff?
I don't care.
It's trust that's broken andher heart's that's broken again.
And then part of the devastatingpart is say that somebody went
(04:11):
for five years without relapsingand then they relapse Now.
For a betrayed partner, it'slike, okay, well, how long do I
have to wait to feel safe again?
Because I waited five yearslast time and then this happened
.
So now I feel like I have towait another five years, and
then longer, to get to a placewhere I can trust that this is
(04:32):
safe again, like that's what'sgoing through a betrayed
partner's mind.
So it's not only the cumulativetrauma, but it's also that like
when am I ever going to feelsafe again?
And what do I do with this?
Like I didn't leave last time,so like now do I leave this time
.
And like now, like what?
(04:53):
How do I wrestle through?
Like okay, this is my pain, butif I get divorced, then if you
have kids, then it's also mykids pain.
And like if I'm holding both ofthose, like what am I going to
do?
Like am I going to put thatpain on my kids now as well?
And so what can happen,especially with repeated
relapses, is that she juststarts to shut down and shut
(05:16):
down and shove it down and belike, okay, I guess I don't, I
guess I don't matter.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
I guess I don't matter.
And that's what you describedas the lights going out.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
The women that I am most concerned about is the
women who are in a relationshipwhere the husband is not doing
the full work and continues torelapse or continues to cycle
and she, she stays, she stays,she doesn't go and he's not
fully doing the work.
Those are the women that I seestart to lose themselves and
(05:54):
that is the most tragic thing inmy mind that could happen out
of all this.
Far more tragic than themarriage ending is if she shuts
down, and I see it in women allthe time.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
And that is so ironic because it's oftentimes those
very relationships where the guythinks, well, she's taking it
really well, you know, she's notgetting angry, she's not
condemning me, she's not anxiousall the time, she's not asking
all these questions.
And sometimes they think, well,she's so Christ-like, she just
(06:32):
accepts me as I am while I'mdoing this.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
If she's not mad, if she's not angry, it's because
she has shut down, it's becauseit's gone so far deep that she's
not fighting anymore.
And so those that what you justdescribed, I'm like, oh my gosh
with that is she is.
She is in such danger right now.
So this cannot be about gosh.
(07:02):
I'm so glad she didn't respond,I'm so glad that she didn't get
mad, I'm so glad.
Well, and that would be natural.
I'm like I hope she doesn'trespond too much, I hope she
doesn't do all that, but thatcan't be the focus.
It can't be the focus becauseone, the focus is on you and
that's the case of like how do Ifeel, how much shame is like,
(07:23):
because I don't want my shame toget activated.
So like if she could just likebe okay and just kind of go and
pray and not be upset and all ofthat that would.
I would really appreciate thata lot.
That is the worst thing for herand, honestly, I think it's the
worst thing for for you, forthose who are listening, Because
so much of your healing has tobe about feeling the pain that
(07:49):
she is feeling and leaning intoempathy for her.
You are not going to fully heal, in my opinion, unless you are
fully leaning into thedevastation that it has caused
and that you are helping to heal, that Wow, this is a major
reframe.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
I hear it all the time when guys say I don't want
to hurt her and that's why I'mnot telling her about the
relapse, that's why I'm notsharing every little detail
about it.
And then if the reaction tothat news is big, they think
well, I've hurt her.
(08:27):
Look, this is exactly what Ididn't want to happen.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
You telling her the truth is not hurting her.
You relapsing is what's hurtingher.
And when this happens and menaren't forthcoming, or when they
hide, or when they continue tohide or minimize or whatnot,
that's lying, that's lying byomission and over time, time and
(08:54):
time again, I hear women sayyou know what?
I could deal with a relapseeasier than I can deal with him
lying and withholding from me.
That's how more divorces end uphappening.
Is the line and the withholding.
Because, let's be honest, likeif we take a step back, the
person you're really trying toprotect is yourself, because
(09:16):
when you say this and when yousay, hey, I relapsed, or X, y or
Z, you're, you don't want tofeel the pain of her reaction.
That's more of what's going on.
So we have to be really honestabout that.
There is nothing kind aboutwithholding.
In fact, from a trade partner'sperspective, it is cruel to
(09:41):
withhold it.
Now as far as how many, everylittle detail or whatnot.
She gets to decide how much ofthe detail she wants, but you
have to be open to giving herwhatever she wants.
It has to be the only way thatyou can heal the relationship,
the only way that you are goingto aid in her healing, and I
(10:02):
believe the only way that youare going to get full recovery
yourself is if you arecompletely transparent and
authentic.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Absolutely, and that's so much of what we're
working on at Husband Materiallearning how to be vulnerable,
learning these relational skills.
So let's talk about when arelapse has occurred and a man
has been honest about it how canwe be helpful instead of
hurtful?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, I think it starts with the.
You have to.
You have to create a space forher, for her emotions, and so
you need to take your desire andexpectation for how you want
her to respond off the table.
It is not about you.
She has to be able to have allthe emotions she has.
(10:51):
And again, if she doesn't haveemotions, those are the women I
am most worried about.
Okay, so you have to have aspace where you can take her
anger or her sadness.
Where she asks you a question,you give her the full truth and
you don't make her pull out allthe details.
(11:13):
It is worthless to give thatlittle bit and then make her
pull everything out of you.
That is not helping at all.
And the reality is is that sheneeds the truth to heal.
Well, she can heal without you,but you don't necessarily want
that.
If you're trying to be in therelationship, you don't want to
put her in a position where shehas to disconnect from you to
(11:35):
heal.
But if that's what it takes,she is worth that because she
has to be able to heal.
But the best you can gift, youcan give her, is you can be
non-defensive, you can be humble, you can be forthright and
forthcoming.
You can lean into it and say,hey, how are you doing?
(11:59):
How are you doing?
Is there anything you want toknow?
Like, how are you?
All of that?
And it's human nature to pullaway from that and like, ooh, I
don't want to poke the bear,like, I don't want to, like I
don't want to, like, things arecalm now.
I don't want emotions to riseand I don't want no, it's the
opposite.
This is part of thatcounterintuitive part of healing
is that the most kind and themost healing thing you can do is
(12:23):
lean into that and say, hey,honey, how are you today?
Is there anything you want totalk about?
And you can be there.
And if she says Nope, okay.
Or if she says yes and she goesoff and it shoots her up and
she's triggered, then then youtake ownership for that.
You take ownership not only ofwhat you do.
That's the.
That's not where it ends, it'salso you have to take ownership
(12:45):
for the effect it had on her.
That's also yours to own.
And so doing that and havingthat humility and having that
ownership can be very helpful.
And if you start to do that andit's different and it's healthy
, she's going to notice that,but she may not be able to tell
(13:11):
you that, she may not want totell you that for a long time.
So, but you just have to knowfrom a betrayed partner's point
of view, like even in the heatof everything, if you come in
and you stay in there and youtake her anger and you and you
lean into her emotions, andthat's different and new as you
work through your healingprocess she's going to go huh,
(13:31):
that's different and that's good.
That's what I coach partners of, that's what you're looking for
.
The like huh, he would havehandled that differently.
But she does not owe you kudos.
She is not your cheerleader inthis, in this whole thing, but
do you know that she will see it, even if she is not at a place
where she's ready to verbalizethat?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
And that's one of the only ways that we can
demonstrate more than justsobriety, by how we show up in
those moments.
Yeah, tammy, I've been watchingsome of the webinars that you
do with Nathaniel called BothSides of the Story, and there
was one that you did aboutcreating a relapse safety plan
(14:13):
for betrayed partners.
Can you say a little bit moreabout what betrayed partners
need after a relapse?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
What they need is they need the truth, they need
the ability to express, theyneed safety, the ability to
express things.
They may need space like safety, safety, safety is what we're
going for.
So physical safety, emotionalsafety, all forms of safety is
what they need.
(14:41):
Because a relapse has ignitedher nervous system absolutely on
fire.
She is in full on fight orflight mode or, for those who
take it really well, they'reprobably in the freeze or the
freeze mode.
So know that just because sheis not responding big, that her
nervous system is absolutely onfire.
(15:02):
It's just she doesn't feel likeshe can fight or she can run
anymore.
So that's where you get thefreeze.
Just to reframe that, I call itthe plan C.
Like plan A is there's nobetrayal, right?
Plan B is okay, there has beenbetrayal but no more.
And then plan C is like now,what Right?
(15:22):
And so what I?
What I tell women is that tohave things thought out as far
as if the worst case scenariohappens and he relapses, I help
them kind of come up with a planso that they can have a thought
out and written down ahead oftime, because once your brain
(15:43):
kicks into that fight or flightmode, like you don't know what
you want, like you don't know Imean the executive functioning,
you can't plan, I'm not sure.
Like everything is overwhelming,it's so hard.
So it's something just to kindof get her through that initial
shock period of it so she canstart to get back online.
But I think that what she needsfor herself that document is
(16:06):
the you're not safe and sheneeds to get safety outside of
you.
So that's a difference between,like what we were talking about
, of what she needs from you,how you can help her, and the
other one, the document is okay,you're not safe.
So now she has to do this onher own.
And what does she need to thinkthrough to kind of help her get
(16:29):
her feet back underneath her?
It's kind of a very short termplan, but what can she do to get
her feet back underneath her?
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Which might include time away.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Might include extra self-care hiring, more help with
the kids to give her that space.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah, absolutely One of the biggest things that's so
hard for betrayed partners todeal with.
Let's just go back to afterinitial discovery In their
decision of if they're going tostay or not.
Decision of if they're going tostay or not something every
partner has to struggle with isthe risk.
It is such a risk to stay.
(17:10):
If she has stayed with you, sheis risking so much and when she
makes that decision and itfeels for a betrayed partner,
there are times you're like whatam I doing?
What am I doing?
Why would I stay with this manwho has the ability, who's
(17:31):
already shown it, but who hasthe ability to hurt me again
this much?
So there is that battle inside,and I think Michelle Mays does a
great job about talking aboutall these binds in her book the
betrayal bind but there is sucha battle inside of her of like I
want safety, I want to be at aplace where I can rest, I want
to be at a place where I feellike I can be safe and I can let
(17:52):
down my guard and I can do allthose things, and yet I can't
and I'm staying and all of thismay happen again.
All of this may happen again,and so that is a constant thing
that betrayed partners have todeal with is dealing with that
risk and their relationship withthemselves and the battle
(18:13):
inside of themselves with thatrisk.
So part of kind of developing aplan, as we talked about, is
going you know what?
Let's look at that risk becausethat risk is real.
Yes, that risk is real and wecan't run from it.
I mean, you know what, let'slook at that risk because that
risk is real.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
That risk is real and we can't run from it.
I mean, you can.
You can avoid it if you want,but one of the ways to calm it a
tiny bit is to have it alreadythought through, so you know
what you're going to do.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
And I know some guys are already thinking why would I
plan for a relapse?
I don't want to relapse again.
I don't want to put myself inthe headspace of imagining
that's going to happen, and sothis might seem unnecessary or
it might seem unhelpful, butthis is not about you guys.
And it is a risk.
(19:02):
It could happen, it couldhappen to anyone, it could
happen to me.
However long we travel downthis road, we can still get in
an accident at any time.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Well, and like you said, like this, this has
nothing to do with the guys,like this is not them planning
for a relapse.
Like, don't, like, don't do it,do your work, so you don't.
This is her trying to create asafety net for herself, because
she is risking everything bystaying with you.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
And that matters.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
You know, this idea of risk, I think is is such a
big thing.
I'm I'm a skydiver and there'sa lot of risk right and
skydiving, but it's sofascinating because in this
community they don't shy awayfrom risk.
It's so fascinating because inthis community they don't shy
away from risk.
They don't shy away from fear,they don't even shy away from
death.
They don't shy away fromemotions, like all of that stuff
(19:53):
.
It's like in in the rest of theworld, when there's risk, the
natural reaction is I want toput my head in my sand and not
think about it and not deal withit.
In this community, everybodyknows that it's there, so they
lean into it and they talk aboutit and they prepare for it.
So much of the training that Iwent through was all about what
to do when things go wrong.
Not that you ever want it to gowrong, and for betrayed
(20:15):
partners, you don't ever want itto go wrong, but you want to.
For betrayed partners, you wantto have a backup plan, and for
skydiving there are backup plans.
To the backup plans, to thebackup plans, because that's how
dangerous it is, or howpotentially dangerous it is.
Well, for betrayed partners itis even more dangerous, I think,
(20:36):
than jumping out of an airplane.
So you want to look at it andyou want to have a plan in place
so that you can get up and walkif everything goes wrong.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
That's so good, and if you want more training and if
you want to give your wife orgirlfriend or family members
more training on how to skydivein this context of sexual
betrayal, you need to go to theBetrayal Healing Conference.
Tammy, can you tell us moreabout that?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah, absolutely so.
This is an annual event I puton that is specifically for
betrayed partners, althoughthose who did the betraying and
professionals are also welcometo join.
We have some specificinterviews for them as well.
But my goal and my heart forthis is that when betrayal
happens, one, nobody preparesyou and two, when it does happen
(21:31):
, you don't know what to do.
You don't know where to go, youdon't know who's safe, you
don't know if you're movingforwards or backwards.
It is so disorienting.
So my heart behind this is togather it's to gather women.
My heart behind this is togather, it's to gather women, to
gather betrayed partners whoare hurting and gather safe
speakers.
I am so protective of betrayedpartners and so I gather safe
(22:01):
speakers to come and who I knowwill give them guidance and help
and empowerment, becausethere's a lot of people who have
been really hurt by therapistsor by professionals or faith
leaders who maybe don't have thetraining and understanding.
So this is a place where youcan come and know that you are
going to be safe and you'regoing to get safe information.
It's happening in a couple ofweeks, january 27th through the
31st, so it's five days long.
(22:22):
There's over 35 speakers,including Peter Levine is
talking, and so, like the traumapiece, we're pulling that in as
well.
I'm really excited about that,but really just phenomenal
speakers, phenomenal experts inthe field, and there'll be about
seven or so interviews that arereleased each day and people
(22:44):
have 24 hours to listen to themand, yeah, it's just a time of
healing and empowerment andguidance and validation, and so
good, it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
So I'm partnering with Tammy to promote this
conference and you can go downto the link in the description
for this episode if you want tojoin Again, it's free.
And for those of you whoattended the Porn-Free man
Conference earlier this month,now the Betrayal Healing
Conference is happening forpartners, for women, for wives,
(23:18):
for girlfriends, for anyonewho's impacted by this.
What an opportunity, tammy, Iknow this is a big question.
What is your favorite thingabout healing?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
What a fascinating question.
Well, for my healing, thefeeling of freedom, the feeling
of bringing back in andwelcoming back in all those
parts of me that I lost alongthe way oh, it feels so good.
(23:48):
And my favorite part of walkingwith women healing oh my gosh,
there's nothing better thanwatching a woman start to get
the strength from the inside andstart to realize that she has
incredible worth and value andstart to realize that she
matters and that she gets totake up space and have a voice
(24:12):
and that she can be acceptedexactly how she is.
To see her light for thosewhose lights have started to dim
, to see that light start to getbrighter and brighter.
It is awesome and it ispossible, and I see it all the
time and I'm on a mission tohelp fan that flame back inside
women.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Let's go.
Thank you, tammy.
Everyone go down to the link tojoin the Betrayal Healing
Conference and you can alsolearn more about Tammy her
website.
Always remember you are God'sbeloved son and you he is well
pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Today, I am so excited to betalking with Tammy Gustafson,
(00:23):
who is the founder of theBetrayal Healing Conference.
Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Thanks, happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
I'm really excited for everyone to hear from you
again.
Last year, our interview wasthe most popular episode of
Husband Material about what todo when your wife is triggered,
and today we're going to talkabout what your wife needs from
you if and when you relapse.
Timmy, I feel like it would bereally helpful for everyone to
(00:52):
get caught up on your story andwhy this matters so much.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, so actually 10 years ago today, today is the
anniversary of D-Day for us.
Today, today is the anniversaryof D-Day for us.
So I thought that Nathaniel andI had a perfect marriage, kind
of very naively and arrogantlyperhaps.
And then, a decade almost intoour marriage, life flew up and
where Nathaniel came clean abouthis sexual integrity issues and
(01:19):
it shattered me.
It shattered me.
Our marriage was hanging on byan absolute thread for a long
time as we dove in and asNathaniel did the really hard
work of healing and also, ofcourse, I mean hard work on my
side and betrayed partner sideas well.
But we did lean in fast forward.
(01:40):
Our marriage made it, I made it, nathaniel made it.
And so I actually never wantedto use my story, never wanted to
talk about my story, any ofthat.
But over time doors opened andit slowly became my passion, and
so it is my passion to helpbetrayed partners heal.
(02:00):
I mean to pick up the brokenpieces of their heart, but then
also to know that they can, thatthere is strength, that there's
freedom, that there's beauty,adventure and joy in the world,
and so to help them get to thatother side.
But this topic, I think, is socrucial because, as I work with
women, that the initial betrayaland discovery is so devastating
(02:24):
.
Of course, the initial betrayaland discovery is so devastating
, of course, but where I seewomen start to lose themselves
and where I start to see theirlights go out is in this area of
if there's constant relapse.
So it's a really superimportant topic, so I'm so glad
we're talking about it.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yeah, and there's no one I'd rather hear from about
this topic than you, tammy.
What is going on inside a womanwhen her husband relapses?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I'm going to back up a little bit when that initial
discovery happens and all ofthat, like that shattering is so
deep.
But then when she hangs inthere and she stays and she's
like I love him or I want themarriage, I don't want this to
end.
I'm willing to do the work topick up the pieces and to heal
(03:11):
and start to lean in and startto trust again.
When a relapse happens, it isabsolutely devastating.
It's absolutely devastatingno-transcript.
(03:51):
Then everything starts over.
Then you are literally back atsquare one.
I know some people and I don'tget into all the if we are we
going to call it a slip?
Are we going to call it arelapse?
All that kind of stuff?
I don't care.
It's trust that's broken andher heart's that's broken again.
And then part of the devastatingpart is say that somebody went
(04:11):
for five years without relapsingand then they relapse Now.
For a betrayed partner, it'slike, okay, well, how long do I
have to wait to feel safe again?
Because I waited five yearslast time and then this happened
.
So now I feel like I have towait another five years, and
then longer, to get to a placewhere I can trust that this is
(04:32):
safe again, like that's what'sgoing through a betrayed
partner's mind.
So it's not only the cumulativetrauma, but it's also that like
when am I ever going to feelsafe again?
And what do I do with this?
Like I didn't leave last time,so like now do I leave this time
.
And like now, like what?
(04:53):
How do I wrestle through?
Like okay, this is my pain, butif I get divorced, then if you
have kids, then it's also mykids pain.
And like if I'm holding both ofthose, like what am I going to
do?
Like am I going to put thatpain on my kids now as well?
And so what can happen,especially with repeated
relapses, is that she juststarts to shut down and shut
(05:16):
down and shove it down and belike, okay, I guess I don't, I
guess I don't matter.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
I guess I don't matter.
And that's what you describedas the lights going out.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
The women that I am most concerned about is the
women who are in a relationshipwhere the husband is not doing
the full work and continues torelapse or continues to cycle
and she, she stays, she stays,she doesn't go and he's not
fully doing the work.
Those are the women that I seestart to lose themselves and
(05:54):
that is the most tragic thing inmy mind that could happen out
of all this.
Far more tragic than themarriage ending is if she shuts
down, and I see it in women allthe time.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
And that is so ironic because it's oftentimes those
very relationships where the guythinks, well, she's taking it
really well, you know, she's notgetting angry, she's not
condemning me, she's not anxiousall the time, she's not asking
all these questions.
And sometimes they think, well,she's so Christ-like, she just
(06:32):
accepts me as I am while I'mdoing this.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
If she's not mad, if she's not angry, it's because
she has shut down, it's becauseit's gone so far deep that she's
not fighting anymore.
And so those that what you justdescribed, I'm like, oh my gosh
with that is she is.
She is in such danger right now.
So this cannot be about gosh.
(07:02):
I'm so glad she didn't respond,I'm so glad that she didn't get
mad, I'm so glad.
Well, and that would be natural.
I'm like I hope she doesn'trespond too much, I hope she
doesn't do all that, but thatcan't be the focus.
It can't be the focus becauseone, the focus is on you and
that's the case of like how do Ifeel, how much shame is like,
(07:23):
because I don't want my shame toget activated.
So like if she could just likebe okay and just kind of go and
pray and not be upset and all ofthat that would.
I would really appreciate thata lot.
That is the worst thing for herand, honestly, I think it's the
worst thing for for you, forthose who are listening, Because
so much of your healing has tobe about feeling the pain that
(07:49):
she is feeling and leaning intoempathy for her.
You are not going to fully heal, in my opinion, unless you are
fully leaning into thedevastation that it has caused
and that you are helping to heal, that Wow, this is a major
reframe.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
I hear it all the time when guys say I don't want
to hurt her and that's why I'mnot telling her about the
relapse, that's why I'm notsharing every little detail
about it.
And then if the reaction tothat news is big, they think
well, I've hurt her.
(08:27):
Look, this is exactly what Ididn't want to happen.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
You telling her the truth is not hurting her.
You relapsing is what's hurtingher.
And when this happens and menaren't forthcoming, or when they
hide, or when they continue tohide or minimize or whatnot,
that's lying, that's lying byomission and over time, time and
(08:54):
time again, I hear women sayyou know what?
I could deal with a relapseeasier than I can deal with him
lying and withholding from me.
That's how more divorces end uphappening.
Is the line and the withholding.
Because, let's be honest, likeif we take a step back, the
person you're really trying toprotect is yourself, because
(09:16):
when you say this and when yousay, hey, I relapsed, or X, y or
Z, you're, you don't want tofeel the pain of her reaction.
That's more of what's going on.
So we have to be really honestabout that.
There is nothing kind aboutwithholding.
In fact, from a trade partner'sperspective, it is cruel to
(09:41):
withhold it.
Now as far as how many, everylittle detail or whatnot.
She gets to decide how much ofthe detail she wants, but you
have to be open to giving herwhatever she wants.
It has to be the only way thatyou can heal the relationship,
the only way that you are goingto aid in her healing, and I
(10:02):
believe the only way that youare going to get full recovery
yourself is if you arecompletely transparent and
authentic.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Absolutely, and that's so much of what we're
working on at Husband Materiallearning how to be vulnerable,
learning these relational skills.
So let's talk about when arelapse has occurred and a man
has been honest about it how canwe be helpful instead of
hurtful?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, I think it starts with the.
You have to.
You have to create a space forher, for her emotions, and so
you need to take your desire andexpectation for how you want
her to respond off the table.
It is not about you.
She has to be able to have allthe emotions she has.
(10:51):
And again, if she doesn't haveemotions, those are the women I
am most worried about.
Okay, so you have to have aspace where you can take her
anger or her sadness.
Where she asks you a question,you give her the full truth and
you don't make her pull out allthe details.
(11:13):
It is worthless to give thatlittle bit and then make her
pull everything out of you.
That is not helping at all.
And the reality is is that sheneeds the truth to heal.
Well, she can heal without you,but you don't necessarily want
that.
If you're trying to be in therelationship, you don't want to
put her in a position where shehas to disconnect from you to
(11:35):
heal.
But if that's what it takes,she is worth that because she
has to be able to heal.
But the best you can gift, youcan give her, is you can be
non-defensive, you can be humble, you can be forthright and
forthcoming.
You can lean into it and say,hey, how are you doing?
(11:59):
How are you doing?
Is there anything you want toknow?
Like, how are you?
All of that?
And it's human nature to pullaway from that and like, ooh, I
don't want to poke the bear,like, I don't want to, like I
don't want to, like, things arecalm now.
I don't want emotions to riseand I don't want no, it's the
opposite.
This is part of thatcounterintuitive part of healing
is that the most kind and themost healing thing you can do is
(12:23):
lean into that and say, hey,honey, how are you today?
Is there anything you want totalk about?
And you can be there.
And if she says Nope, okay.
Or if she says yes and she goesoff and it shoots her up and
she's triggered, then then youtake ownership for that.
You take ownership not only ofwhat you do.
That's the.
That's not where it ends, it'salso you have to take ownership
(12:45):
for the effect it had on her.
That's also yours to own.
And so doing that and havingthat humility and having that
ownership can be very helpful.
And if you start to do that andit's different and it's healthy
, she's going to notice that,but she may not be able to tell
(13:11):
you that, she may not want totell you that for a long time.
So, but you just have to knowfrom a betrayed partner's point
of view, like even in the heatof everything, if you come in
and you stay in there and youtake her anger and you and you
lean into her emotions, andthat's different and new as you
work through your healingprocess she's going to go huh,
(13:31):
that's different and that's good.
That's what I coach partners of, that's what you're looking for
.
The like huh, he would havehandled that differently.
But she does not owe you kudos.
She is not your cheerleader inthis, in this whole thing, but
do you know that she will see it, even if she is not at a place
where she's ready to verbalizethat?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
And that's one of the only ways that we can
demonstrate more than justsobriety, by how we show up in
those moments.
Yeah, tammy, I've been watchingsome of the webinars that you
do with Nathaniel called BothSides of the Story, and there
was one that you did aboutcreating a relapse safety plan
(14:13):
for betrayed partners.
Can you say a little bit moreabout what betrayed partners
need after a relapse?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
What they need is they need the truth, they need
the ability to express, theyneed safety, the ability to
express things.
They may need space like safety, safety, safety is what we're
going for.
So physical safety, emotionalsafety, all forms of safety is
what they need.
(14:41):
Because a relapse has ignitedher nervous system absolutely on
fire.
She is in full on fight orflight mode or, for those who
take it really well, they'reprobably in the freeze or the
freeze mode.
So know that just because sheis not responding big, that her
nervous system is absolutely onfire.
(15:02):
It's just she doesn't feel likeshe can fight or she can run
anymore.
So that's where you get thefreeze.
Just to reframe that, I call itthe plan C.
Like plan A is there's nobetrayal, right?
Plan B is okay, there has beenbetrayal but no more.
And then plan C is like now,what Right?
(15:22):
And so what I?
What I tell women is that tohave things thought out as far
as if the worst case scenariohappens and he relapses, I help
them kind of come up with a planso that they can have a thought
out and written down ahead oftime, because once your brain
(15:43):
kicks into that fight or flightmode, like you don't know what
you want, like you don't know Imean the executive functioning,
you can't plan, I'm not sure.
Like everything is overwhelming,it's so hard.
So it's something just to kindof get her through that initial
shock period of it so she canstart to get back online.
But I think that what she needsfor herself that document is
(16:06):
the you're not safe and sheneeds to get safety outside of
you.
So that's a difference between,like what we were talking about
, of what she needs from you,how you can help her, and the
other one, the document is okay,you're not safe.
So now she has to do this onher own.
And what does she need to thinkthrough to kind of help her get
(16:29):
her feet back underneath her?
It's kind of a very short termplan, but what can she do to get
her feet back underneath her?
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Which might include time away.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Might include extra self-care hiring, more help with
the kids to give her that space.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yeah, absolutely One of the biggest things that's so
hard for betrayed partners todeal with.
Let's just go back to afterinitial discovery In their
decision of if they're going tostay or not.
Decision of if they're going tostay or not something every
partner has to struggle with isthe risk.
It is such a risk to stay.
(17:10):
If she has stayed with you, sheis risking so much and when she
makes that decision and itfeels for a betrayed partner,
there are times you're like whatam I doing?
What am I doing?
Why would I stay with this manwho has the ability, who's
(17:31):
already shown it, but who hasthe ability to hurt me again
this much?
So there is that battle inside,and I think Michelle Mays does a
great job about talking aboutall these binds in her book the
betrayal bind but there is sucha battle inside of her of like I
want safety, I want to be at aplace where I can rest, I want
to be at a place where I feellike I can be safe and I can let
(17:52):
down my guard and I can do allthose things, and yet I can't
and I'm staying and all of thismay happen again.
All of this may happen again,and so that is a constant thing
that betrayed partners have todeal with is dealing with that
risk and their relationship withthemselves and the battle
(18:13):
inside of themselves with thatrisk.
So part of kind of developing aplan, as we talked about, is
going you know what?
Let's look at that risk becausethat risk is real.
Yes, that risk is real and wecan't run from it.
I mean, you know what, let'slook at that risk because that
risk is real.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
That risk is real and we can't run from it.
I mean, you can.
You can avoid it if you want,but one of the ways to calm it a
tiny bit is to have it alreadythought through, so you know
what you're going to do.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
And I know some guys are already thinking why would I
plan for a relapse?
I don't want to relapse again.
I don't want to put myself inthe headspace of imagining
that's going to happen, and sothis might seem unnecessary or
it might seem unhelpful, butthis is not about you guys.
And it is a risk.
(19:02):
It could happen, it couldhappen to anyone, it could
happen to me.
However long we travel downthis road, we can still get in
an accident at any time.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Well, and like you said, like this, this has
nothing to do with the guys,like this is not them planning
for a relapse.
Like, don't, like, don't do it,do your work, so you don't.
This is her trying to create asafety net for herself, because
she is risking everything bystaying with you.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
And that matters.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
You know, this idea of risk, I think is is such a
big thing.
I'm I'm a skydiver and there'sa lot of risk right and
skydiving, but it's sofascinating because in this
community they don't shy awayfrom risk.
It's so fascinating because inthis community they don't shy
away from risk.
They don't shy away from fear,they don't even shy away from
death.
They don't shy away fromemotions, like all of that stuff
(19:53):
.
It's like in in the rest of theworld, when there's risk, the
natural reaction is I want toput my head in my sand and not
think about it and not deal withit.
In this community, everybodyknows that it's there, so they
lean into it and they talk aboutit and they prepare for it.
So much of the training that Iwent through was all about what
to do when things go wrong.
Not that you ever want it to gowrong, and for betrayed
(20:15):
partners, you don't ever want itto go wrong, but you want to.
For betrayed partners, you wantto have a backup plan, and for
skydiving there are backup plans.
To the backup plans, to thebackup plans, because that's how
dangerous it is, or howpotentially dangerous it is.
Well, for betrayed partners itis even more dangerous, I think,
(20:36):
than jumping out of an airplane.
So you want to look at it andyou want to have a plan in place
so that you can get up and walkif everything goes wrong.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
That's so good, and if you want more training and if
you want to give your wife orgirlfriend or family members
more training on how to skydivein this context of sexual
betrayal, you need to go to theBetrayal Healing Conference.
Tammy, can you tell us moreabout that?
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah, absolutely so.
This is an annual event I puton that is specifically for
betrayed partners, althoughthose who did the betraying and
professionals are also welcometo join.
We have some specificinterviews for them as well.
But my goal and my heart forthis is that when betrayal
happens, one, nobody preparesyou and two, when it does happen
(21:31):
, you don't know what to do.
You don't know where to go, youdon't know who's safe, you
don't know if you're movingforwards or backwards.
It is so disorienting.
So my heart behind this is togather it's to gather women.
My heart behind this is togather, it's to gather women, to
gather betrayed partners whoare hurting and gather safe
speakers.
I am so protective of betrayedpartners and so I gather safe
(22:01):
speakers to come and who I knowwill give them guidance and help
and empowerment, becausethere's a lot of people who have
been really hurt by therapistsor by professionals or faith
leaders who maybe don't have thetraining and understanding.
So this is a place where youcan come and know that you are
going to be safe and you'regoing to get safe information.
It's happening in a couple ofweeks, january 27th through the
31st, so it's five days long.
(22:22):
There's over 35 speakers,including Peter Levine is
talking, and so, like the traumapiece, we're pulling that in as
well.
I'm really excited about that,but really just phenomenal
speakers, phenomenal experts inthe field, and there'll be about
seven or so interviews that arereleased each day and people
(22:44):
have 24 hours to listen to themand, yeah, it's just a time of
healing and empowerment andguidance and validation, and so
good, it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
So I'm partnering with Tammy to promote this
conference and you can go downto the link in the description
for this episode if you want tojoin Again, it's free.
And for those of you whoattended the Porn-Free man
Conference earlier this month,now the Betrayal Healing
Conference is happening forpartners, for women, for wives,
(23:18):
for girlfriends, for anyonewho's impacted by this.
What an opportunity, tammy, Iknow this is a big question.
What is your favorite thingabout healing?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
What a fascinating question.
Well, for my healing, thefeeling of freedom, the feeling
of bringing back in andwelcoming back in all those
parts of me that I lost alongthe way oh, it feels so good.
(23:48):
And my favorite part of walkingwith women healing oh my gosh,
there's nothing better thanwatching a woman start to get
the strength from the inside andstart to realize that she has
incredible worth and value andstart to realize that she
matters and that she gets totake up space and have a voice
(24:12):
and that she can be acceptedexactly how she is.
To see her light for thosewhose lights have started to dim
, to see that light start to getbrighter and brighter.
It is awesome and it ispossible, and I see it all the
time and I'm on a mission tohelp fan that flame back inside
women.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Let's go.
Thank you, tammy.
Everyone go down to the link tojoin the Betrayal Healing
Conference and you can alsolearn more about Tammy her
website.
Always remember you are God'sbeloved son and you he is well
pleased.
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