July 21, 2025 • 28 mins
What parts of yourself do you hide, repress, or deny? Whatever is in your "shadow" can subconsciously drive everything you do. Roy Wooten unpacks the concept of the shadow, how it works, and what his healing journey has looked like—from not feeling lovable as a boy, to surviving sexual abuse, to breaking free through embodied healing experiences at The Crucible Project.
Roy Wooten serves as the Executive Director of The Crucible Project. With decades of experience as a counselor and ministry leader, Roy is deeply committed to personal transformation, relational health, and spiritual growth. He is best known for helping thousands of people improve their relationships through retreats, seminars, and coaching sessions. Learn more at thecrucibleproject.org/roywooten
More resources from Roy Wooten and The Crucible Project:
- Unstuck: 7 Steps to Break Free and Live Courageously (free eBook)
- Sign up for a Christian Men's Retreat (initial weekend)
Take the Husband Material Journey...
- Step 1: Listen to this podcast or watch on YouTube
- Step 2: Join the private Husband Material Community
- Step 3: Take the free mini-course: How To Outgrow Porn
- Step 4: Try the all-in-one program: Husband Material Academy
Thanks for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Thank you for listening to myinterview with Roy Wooten.
(00:22):
Roy leads the Crucible Project,an international ministry
igniting Christ-like changethrough experiences of radical
honesty and grace.
I'm a big fan of Crucible and Ilove Roy.
You're going to hear hisvulnerable story of how he grew
up, experienced trauma and whatit has looked like for him to
(00:43):
love the boy within him.
You're also going to get someinsight on the concept of the
shadow, which is a reallyhelpful concept for
understanding what happens aswe're growing up and there are
parts of us that we don't likethings we've done or that have
been done to us that we wishweren't true.
So often these things lead usto live in secrecy and hiding,
(01:04):
and Roy gives a beautiful visionfor what it looks like to come
out of hiding, to get unstuckand to heal.
Enjoy the episode Today.
I am thrilled to be talking withRoy Wooten, who has become a
really close friend.
He is the executive director ofthe Crucible Project and the
author of Unstuck Seven Steps toBreak Free and Live
(01:28):
Courageously.
This past year I got to go to aCrucible weekend together with
many members of the HusbandMaterial Leadership Team, and we
did some really good work.
They held space for us in a way.
That was beautiful, with beingable to go deeper into healing,
breaking free For me.
I've had some residualaddictive behavior that I have
(01:50):
been working through, andCrucible has played a big role
in giving me exactly what Ineeded to take my next steps.
Roy, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, it's such a pleasure to be with you, drew.
I love what God has you up to.
I love how you courageously aregoing after it.
It just blows me away theimpact that you're having and
honored that you invited me tobe with your leaders at a
retreat of husband material.
That was just incredible andthat you trusted us to do some
(02:22):
work on yourself at.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Crucible.
I love the alignment in manyareas that I see between husband
, material and Crucible.
One of the topics that I lovethat Crucible emphasizes is the
shadow, the concept of parts ofour lives that we deny or that
(02:47):
we hide or that we're not evenaware of.
Roy, what is the shadow?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
An unconscious part of ourself that is just like
part of growing up.
We threw things back there inour shadow, which stays with us
always.
The things we hide, repress anddeny can be sinful things.
It can be things that were doneto us, right, the parts of us
that we don't want to thinkabout.
We think we dealt with thembecause we don't think about
(03:14):
them as often as we used to, butit's still there and it really
is even things that we put inshadow, that may not be sin or
sinful, that we just hide.
We don't want other people toknow.
So we grow up and we'recreative and we're curious, and
our family of origin isn'treally into opening or letting
(03:36):
men or boys be creative andcurious, and so we just take
that and we stuff it and wedecide we've got to not show
that and in fact, over time, wecan start to dislike that part
of us.
Certainly anything about us andour history, anything about our
personality, our character, anyof the behaviors that we've
engaged in or that have beendone to, things that have been
(03:58):
done to us that we don't want tothink about and that we don't
want to, even certainly don'twant anyone else in the world to
know.
Those things are the thingsthat are in shadow.
And back there we believe inshadow, in secret, you know,
away from our thinking, part ofourselves.
It actually takes on some powerthat the more it stays secret,
(04:23):
the more we're separated from itand distant from it, the more
powerful it is, and that it justdoesn't go away.
But then it starts to drivesome of the things we do.
Most of the things that we dothat we don't want to do have
its origin in those things backthere that we don't want to
think about ourselves.
And one of the other thingsthat happens so frequently
(04:45):
happens you know, it was a bigaha in my life is when we are
judging other people and we tendto see those things that we
have in our shadow in them.
And the things that we protestthe most about usually are
because there's some shadow partof me that I have just not
(05:06):
accepted about myself.
Shadow can drive everythingthat we do.
So I grew up in a home that wasloving and poor, working class,
you know, trailer park.
My dad worked in the oil fieldsout in West Texas and a
nurturing, warm home turneddangerous when my mom had her
(05:28):
first psychiatric break when Iwas five.
One of my memories is sittingin a squad car holding my little
brother I had tried to protectall week and watching my dad on
the porch with a lawman ridingon a pad, cowboy hat and all,
and my mom is screaming andyelling.
She's tied up in a gurney,being put into an ambulance as
(05:53):
she leaves to go to a psychhospital for several months.
That's what they did in the 70sand in that moment probably not
a small T trauma, but a big Ttrauma was a message that I took
on for myself, probablywhispered by Satan that you're
not valuable, you're not worthyof being loved.
(06:16):
And as my mom returned from thehospital several months later,
the secret was you can't tellanyone about this and we have to
look normal.
Normal was a big word in myfamily, so don't tell anyone
about all the bad things thathappen and let's look normal.
(06:38):
And normal for me was a command, an obligation to perform
academically and athleticallyand at church, to be the best
that I could be.
The more I achieved, the morenormal we looked.
And so you know, over in shadow, whenever I started doing my
(07:01):
work on myself around thesethings, the discovery was I
still had a little boy in me whowondered if he was worthy, and
the thing that had driven a lotof my success in my career was
this little boy who, part of methat said if I don't perform, if
I don't achieve, if I don'taccomplish, then I will be
(07:24):
rejected and I will never findlove.
So it's been a long journey tonot just hide it and then start
to get healing by recognizing itand see that it's there, but to
actually go to the little boyand say, yeah, what did you need
in those moments?
(07:45):
What did you want for yourself?
And to become an advocate andcare for and love and give the
little boy the things that hedid not get from his parents in
those moments, and to become achampion and a guide and to help
him get what he needs throughhealthy ways instead of some of
(08:06):
the ways that they would pop out.
This is what we believe atCrucible, that you got to face
it the way that I think you know.
Jeremiah has called us to lookwithin ourselves.
Ezekiel the psalmist says youknow, search my heart, oh God.
We have to look withinourselves to face whatever it is
(08:27):
that we've been hiding,repressing and denying, that
we've been running from in orderfor it not to control us, but
for us to have some control overthe way forward, and becoming
an advocate for the good thingsthat it wants and needs, so that
(08:47):
it can get it in healthy ways.
Is that maturing of the faith?
It's that continuedsanctification process that Paul
talks about, and that's, youknow, those are the kinds of
ways that we think about shadowat the Crucible Project ways
that we think about shadow atthe Crucible Project.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
I love that so much.
Heal the boy to free the man.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
So we can put painful experiences into our shadow, we
can put the little boy withinus into our shadow.
It's like a backpack that getsbigger over the years when we
continue to not have a safeplace to truly share and be
vulnerable.
We carry that backpack and oneof the heaviest things that we
(09:36):
put in that backpack of ourshadow is sexual experiences,
sexual thoughts and feelings,fantasies, relationship with
porn.
It truly does have a lot morepower over us when we keep it a
secret or when we don't reallydeal with it.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yes, and shame can not only be a result of our
acting out or our fantasies orhowever we're judging ourselves
around those things, but it canalso be a driver of those things
that I want to separate fromand say, well, that's not really
(10:18):
me, that's not really like me.
And in my shame response tothat, we find ourselves going
back to the very things that wefor soothing, for numbing, for
escape, some ways of running andhiding, the very things that
brought us the shame to beginwith.
(10:38):
We get in a cycle and then allof a sudden, it feels like we
don't have any control over it.
It's an addiction.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Absolutely.
Can you give an example ofputting something sexual in your
shadow?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah, me personally my mom would go to a psych
hospital and we would be farmedout to be cared for by others
for two or three months and thenwe'd be all back together.
Sometimes it was family,sometimes it was a couple from
church.
It was different almost everytime, and one of the times my
(11:14):
uncle, who really hadn't paidmuch attention to us, invited us
to come stay with him and theylived on the wealthier part of
town and the first night hesexually molested me and then he
continued to do that during thecourse of my stay.
Now being taught at five, wewant to look normal and then
(11:36):
we've got to keep family secretsset me up for at 12.
When that happened it being asecret and not telling anyone
there wasn't going to be anyonethat I felt safe to tell I went
off to summer camp.
Some folks at church paid myway for me to go to a summer
(11:58):
camp that summer and there wasenough freedom in there for my
body to express this trauma inmy life.
I got physically sick anddehydrated so much that I ended
up in the emergency room, and itwas my body's way of
communicating.
(12:18):
Something bad is going on in mylife, but my mouth never said
anything to anyone.
Fast forward to the early yearsof my marriage.
We had three or four years.
There was just Debra and Ibefore we got pregnant, and that
was wonderful.
By the way, 37 years togetherlast May.
So you know, by God's grace,yes.
(12:40):
And so there's something thathappens whenever a woman has a
baby it's like every cell in herbody is about that baby and
that's what I experienced I washaving, like we had a lot of fun
together in those first four orfive years of connecting and,
you know, we were free withoutthe kids.
And then, all of a sudden, Iwas second, like I was the
(13:04):
leftover of her energy for thosefirst, like that year, 18
months.
And it was during that timethat I started noticing women at
church, women at work, therestaurant waitress, et cetera,
that I really hadn't noticedbefore.
I mean, they didn't, they paledin comparison to the beauty of
my wife, but all of a sudden Iwas noticing them sexually and
(13:28):
thinking of them sexually and inthe absence of much connection
in the house, everyadvertisement was getting my
attention that had that wasselling sex.
Advertisement was getting myattention.
That was selling sex.
If you could say that Tabloidswould come into the mail, would
(13:49):
come to our house of the springcollection and the swimsuits,
and all of that was getting allof my attention Found my courage
and went and talked to mypastor and I said I'm really
struggling with this.
I think I'm not the only one.
How did you handle it when youwere a young father?
And he said I really neverstruggled with this, roy, but
I'm going to get you connectedto a couple of our leaders.
(14:11):
So I met on a Saturday morninghere.
I was like 24, 25 years old,you know, they were in their 70s
and we were drinking coffee andthey had their bottles out and
we prayed, and then they saidwhat can we help you with?
And I explained this to themand both of them denied that
they had ever struggled withthis before.
And it sunk me.
(14:32):
It sunk me.
It said Roy, you're the onlyone who really struggles with
this and you better not evertell anyone, because you're that
different and something is verywrong with you.
So I just put all of that inthe shadow and I acted like I
didn't struggle for a long time,for a long time.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
And I wonder if that season of not much sex at all in
your marriage was alsotriggering the piece in your
shadow of not being fully loved.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Oh, absolutely yeah.
Anytime that my wife and I havean interaction where some
desire of mine isn't met, that'swhere it usually lands in my
heart.
After doing so much work onmyself, it still pops up
occasionally.
It wasn't long ago.
(15:30):
I went out to eat.
I had to run to take care of anerrand for the family.
They brought my meal home butthey went and did some other
things.
So it was about four hoursbetween when I left the table
after I ordered my meal andwhenever they got back to the
house.
And for me, for Debra, my sweetwife, she was just connecting
(15:54):
with her family and enjoying.
They did some shopping, theywent and saw my son, all without
communicating to me.
But for me it felt like youjust don't love me, right?
If you love me, you would havethought hey, I need to let him
know we're not bringing him anyfood.
Go ahead and eat.
And it triggers that little boyunloved part of me.
(16:15):
That is not her fault, that'smy stuff, right?
It's not her fault that ittriggers me there.
And I can still make requestsaround how I would like for us
to move forward around thesethings, but early in my marriage
it was big hurt because Ihadn't done any work on this.
(16:36):
It was like I can't believe Imarried someone who doesn't love
me, you know, and I've got totry harder to earn her love.
And now it's an awareness thatthis is pinging this little part
and I need to take care of mylittle boy myself.
It's not my wife'sresponsibility to not step on my
triggers.
(16:57):
It's not her responsibility.
It's my responsibility to makerequests for what I want, right,
to speak up, to set boundarieswhere I need to.
But it's not, you know, it'snot her fault that she
accidentally steps on one of mytriggers.
It's my responsibility.
What?
Speaker 1 (17:17):
I do with it and that is so challenging and good.
So what happened when youattended your first crucible
weekend?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yeah.
So I had done some counselingin my early adult years you know
, late teens and early 20saround my surviving sexual abuse
and around the wounds of theabuse of my home and I thought I
had really dealt witheverything.
And I went to a crucibleweekend and God started dealing
(17:45):
with me on all of that.
God started dealing with me onthings that were still left
unhealed in those things andthat's where I discovered that
there's a little boy part of mewho's just dying for me to come
love and to square up with andto care for.
I was able to do a piece ofwork that was just remarkable.
(18:07):
I got to have a conversationwith the nurturing mom that
disappeared whenever I was five,around all of the painful ways
that I had been stayingconnected to her and the things
that the struggle that I hadbeen in around not feeling
worthy and not feeling loved andhaving to earn that love.
(18:29):
It was so powerful healing forme.
I think if I had done it in acounseling office it would not
have been so impactful, becauseI think part of what I've
discovered about my own recoveryand that I believe is true for
all recovery is it has to happenin community that we need
connection as part of thehealing process and where
(18:52):
they're doing their work too infront of me.
The safer my circle is, themore safe I feel to go back into
the darkest moments of my lifeand really look at things and
find the little boy in it andtake care of him.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
That's just amazing.
And also at a crucible weekend,everything is physical and
embodied Rather than in acounseling office.
It might just be talking aboutthings.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Right, right.
I think it would be difficultto live like doing a crucible
weekend every day of your life.
It is a unique place and we'renot the only ones, but it is a
unique place for that communityand that healing, so that you
can go back, if you're intherapy, to your therapy office
(19:43):
with some clarity, with somemotivation, with direction and a
big leap in your healingjourney.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yeah, and that's exactly what happened for me
when I went through my initialweekend in March.
I had anger in my shadow, theway that I was treated being
lectured, yelled at, spanked,misunderstood, with undiagnosed
ADHD.
That set me up to be bulliedand that set me up for a lot of
(20:17):
what came later and I believeporn is a bully as well.
My work was accessing my angerthat I had buried, that I had
disconnected from and steppinginto my power, reclaiming the
truth that I do care and, man,it felt so good.
(20:40):
I released some trauma and Ireclaimed my strength, which was
in my shadow.
Like I am a strong person, butI have often viewed myself as
not strong because I don't havethis stereotypical masculinity.
I'm six foot seven, butsometimes I feel like I'm four
(21:00):
foot 11.
And that's a bit of my shadowwork.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, my heart's tender, tender for you and it's
it really like sucks to go dowork on yourself.
It sucks, it's, it's painfuland you know, and going into the
wound, If it's been a festeredwound, it's more painful than if
you would have dealt with it inthe moment, shortly after.
But we got to go.
(21:28):
It's through that darkness thatwe get to the other side, where
now the darkness doesn't havethe power over me, but I'm
walking side by side with it andit doesn't mean I still won't
get triggered, but I have adifferent way of dealing with it
going forward.
I'm in awareness and I've mademy way out before.
(21:50):
There's a path.
That's new that if I keepmoving in that path every time,
it becomes the way that I dothings going forward eventually.
So think about neural pathwaydevelopment.
You know it's like we revisitthe scene of the crime, as it
were, and we find a differentway out of it than we ever have.
(22:13):
And as we get triggered in thefuture when it pops, when it
hits that we have a choice thatwe didn't have before to start
burning a new path.
So then it becomes theautomatic way that we move
eventually.
That's so good.
Bless you for going for it.
Drew I mean, I really thinkit's one in a hundred thousand
(22:35):
men would really go do this hardwork right, Would really go
back and get at the things thatthey've been hiding, repressing,
denying.
And those are the men that walkinto a room, that people sense
something's different about them.
There's some authenticity aboutthis man, and I don't know what
it is, but I want to follow him, or I want to get to know him,
(22:57):
or I want to be like him.
It's going back and dealingwith it that gets you to that
place.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yeah, I love how Crucible says if you want to
experience radical grace, youneed to be radically honest.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah, jesus was full of grace and full of truth.
And James 5.16 said you know,confess your sins one to another
.
I believe just confess the sinsthat you've done, but also the
sins that have been done to youthat it brings healing.
Right, we don't confess forforgiveness.
We confess to God forforgiveness he already forgives
us for.
(23:34):
But when we confess to others,there's healing in it.
And I believe one of the bestgifts of Crucible has been this
idea that I need to have alwaysin my life other men that I'm
living confessionally up to datewith that we are not hiding
from each other anything andwe're able to call each other
(23:58):
out as if we sniff any BS.
Right that we're able to calleach other out on it, because
that's how we can stay healed.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Amen, and there is something different about that
kind of community, that kind ofculture.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, you think about how he did life.
He lived authentically withothers as he did life and he
taught us that we can not putour sadness in the shadow but
cry.
He taught us that we can findour anger and use it to
accomplish good things.
That we can face fearful thingsand even express fear, but not
(24:40):
live with a spirit of fear.
Then we can move through and goahead, see the fearful thing
and move with courage through it.
I want to be more and more likeJesus in my masculinity, in my
masculinity and whenever Jesusencountered somebody who was
full of sexual shame he embracedeveryone who knew they were
(25:13):
broken.
Yeah, embraced and defended.
He drew a line in the sand, asit were, and said don't touch
this woman, right?
Do not touch this woman who gotin adultery, protected, saved
her life and then, in a way,blessed her.
He said yeah, I'm not waggingmy finger at you, let's go live
a good life.
Right, you got a reboot here, arestart, and I think that's
(25:33):
what he says to me, roy, in allyour imperfections, I love you.
You bring me pleasure.
I will use you, even in yourimperfection, because of your
imperfections.
And you are pure, you are pure.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I know you're doing incredible things the triads and
other ways of getting mentogether to be real with each
other.
I mean, that's the secret saucethat I think scripture speaks
to and that the research saysbrings healing, and I'm very
thankful for what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Thanks and Roy, I'm excited about what you're doing
too, especially at the CrucibleProject.
So you guys can go tothecrucibleprojectorg and if you
scroll down to the bottom youcan get a free PDF of Roy's book
Unstuck.
Can you say more about it?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yeah, so Unstuck is our principles around these
things that keep us, you know,doing things that we don't want
to do or, you know, stayingstuck because of fear.
I took the principles of ourretreat.
These are our teachings.
I took our teachings and putthem in seven steps to break
free and living courageously.
(26:44):
Now, reading the book isn'tgoing to get you unstuck, but
doing the things per chapterthat are discussed in the book
will, and you'll need community,so we suggest you read it with
others.
But I would love to give toyour community, drew, five
copies of my book that if a manwants to get a copy, they can
(27:07):
get it from you.
Otherwise they can find itwherever they get their books.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Awesome.
So if you want the PDF copy, goto thecrucibleprojectorg and
we're giving away some physicalcopies inside the Husband
Material community which you canjoin at husbandmaterialco.
Roy, what is your favoritething about getting unstuck and
outgrowing porn?
Speaker 2 (27:38):
myself like I was never loved before, and that is
in the circle of other brotherswho love me and that is in
community with God as well.
And so when I take a slip, Ihave a slip that I am able to
practice these tools incommunity.
That gets me through it again.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Beautiful.
Thank you so much.
Totally resonate with you andlook up to you in that.
Thanks for being on the show.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
It was such a pleasure, Drew.
Yeah, bless you Thanks.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Gentlemen, always remember you are God's beloved
son.
In you he is well pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Thank you for listening to myinterview with Roy Wooten.
(00:22):
Roy leads the Crucible Project,an international ministry
igniting Christ-like changethrough experiences of radical
honesty and grace.
I'm a big fan of Crucible and Ilove Roy.
You're going to hear hisvulnerable story of how he grew
up, experienced trauma and whatit has looked like for him to
(00:43):
love the boy within him.
You're also going to get someinsight on the concept of the
shadow, which is a reallyhelpful concept for
understanding what happens aswe're growing up and there are
parts of us that we don't likethings we've done or that have
been done to us that we wishweren't true.
So often these things lead usto live in secrecy and hiding,
(01:04):
and Roy gives a beautiful visionfor what it looks like to come
out of hiding, to get unstuckand to heal.
Enjoy the episode Today.
I am thrilled to be talking withRoy Wooten, who has become a
really close friend.
He is the executive director ofthe Crucible Project and the
author of Unstuck Seven Steps toBreak Free and Live
(01:28):
Courageously.
This past year I got to go to aCrucible weekend together with
many members of the HusbandMaterial Leadership Team, and we
did some really good work.
They held space for us in a way.
That was beautiful, with beingable to go deeper into healing,
breaking free For me.
I've had some residualaddictive behavior that I have
(01:50):
been working through, andCrucible has played a big role
in giving me exactly what Ineeded to take my next steps.
Roy, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, it's such a pleasure to be with you, drew.
I love what God has you up to.
I love how you courageously aregoing after it.
It just blows me away theimpact that you're having and
honored that you invited me tobe with your leaders at a
retreat of husband material.
That was just incredible andthat you trusted us to do some
(02:22):
work on yourself at.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Crucible.
I love the alignment in manyareas that I see between husband
, material and Crucible.
One of the topics that I lovethat Crucible emphasizes is the
shadow, the concept of parts ofour lives that we deny or that
(02:47):
we hide or that we're not evenaware of.
Roy, what is the shadow?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
An unconscious part of ourself that is just like
part of growing up.
We threw things back there inour shadow, which stays with us
always.
The things we hide, repress anddeny can be sinful things.
It can be things that were doneto us, right, the parts of us
that we don't want to thinkabout.
We think we dealt with thembecause we don't think about
(03:14):
them as often as we used to, butit's still there and it really
is even things that we put inshadow, that may not be sin or
sinful, that we just hide.
We don't want other people toknow.
So we grow up and we'recreative and we're curious, and
our family of origin isn'treally into opening or letting
(03:36):
men or boys be creative andcurious, and so we just take
that and we stuff it and wedecide we've got to not show
that and in fact, over time, wecan start to dislike that part
of us.
Certainly anything about us andour history, anything about our
personality, our character, anyof the behaviors that we've
engaged in or that have beendone to, things that have been
(03:58):
done to us that we don't want tothink about and that we don't
want to, even certainly don'twant anyone else in the world to
know.
Those things are the thingsthat are in shadow.
And back there we believe inshadow, in secret, you know,
away from our thinking, part ofourselves.
It actually takes on some powerthat the more it stays secret,
(04:23):
the more we're separated from itand distant from it, the more
powerful it is, and that it justdoesn't go away.
But then it starts to drivesome of the things we do.
Most of the things that we dothat we don't want to do have
its origin in those things backthere that we don't want to
think about ourselves.
And one of the other thingsthat happens so frequently
(04:45):
happens you know, it was a bigaha in my life is when we are
judging other people and we tendto see those things that we
have in our shadow in them.
And the things that we protestthe most about usually are
because there's some shadow partof me that I have just not
(05:06):
accepted about myself.
Shadow can drive everythingthat we do.
So I grew up in a home that wasloving and poor, working class,
you know, trailer park.
My dad worked in the oil fieldsout in West Texas and a
nurturing, warm home turneddangerous when my mom had her
(05:28):
first psychiatric break when Iwas five.
One of my memories is sittingin a squad car holding my little
brother I had tried to protectall week and watching my dad on
the porch with a lawman ridingon a pad, cowboy hat and all,
and my mom is screaming andyelling.
She's tied up in a gurney,being put into an ambulance as
(05:53):
she leaves to go to a psychhospital for several months.
That's what they did in the 70sand in that moment probably not
a small T trauma, but a big Ttrauma was a message that I took
on for myself, probablywhispered by Satan that you're
not valuable, you're not worthyof being loved.
(06:16):
And as my mom returned from thehospital several months later,
the secret was you can't tellanyone about this and we have to
look normal.
Normal was a big word in myfamily, so don't tell anyone
about all the bad things thathappen and let's look normal.
(06:38):
And normal for me was a command, an obligation to perform
academically and athleticallyand at church, to be the best
that I could be.
The more I achieved, the morenormal we looked.
And so you know, over in shadow, whenever I started doing my
(07:01):
work on myself around thesethings, the discovery was I
still had a little boy in me whowondered if he was worthy, and
the thing that had driven a lotof my success in my career was
this little boy who, part of methat said if I don't perform, if
I don't achieve, if I don'taccomplish, then I will be
(07:24):
rejected and I will never findlove.
So it's been a long journey tonot just hide it and then start
to get healing by recognizing itand see that it's there, but to
actually go to the little boyand say, yeah, what did you need
in those moments?
(07:45):
What did you want for yourself?
And to become an advocate andcare for and love and give the
little boy the things that hedid not get from his parents in
those moments, and to become achampion and a guide and to help
him get what he needs throughhealthy ways instead of some of
(08:06):
the ways that they would pop out.
This is what we believe atCrucible, that you got to face
it the way that I think you know.
Jeremiah has called us to lookwithin ourselves.
Ezekiel the psalmist says youknow, search my heart, oh God.
We have to look withinourselves to face whatever it is
(08:27):
that we've been hiding,repressing and denying, that
we've been running from in orderfor it not to control us, but
for us to have some control overthe way forward, and becoming
an advocate for the good thingsthat it wants and needs, so that
(08:47):
it can get it in healthy ways.
Is that maturing of the faith?
It's that continuedsanctification process that Paul
talks about, and that's, youknow, those are the kinds of
ways that we think about shadowat the Crucible Project ways
that we think about shadow atthe Crucible Project.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
I love that so much.
Heal the boy to free the man.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
So we can put painful experiences into our shadow, we
can put the little boy withinus into our shadow.
It's like a backpack that getsbigger over the years when we
continue to not have a safeplace to truly share and be
vulnerable.
We carry that backpack and oneof the heaviest things that we
(09:36):
put in that backpack of ourshadow is sexual experiences,
sexual thoughts and feelings,fantasies, relationship with
porn.
It truly does have a lot morepower over us when we keep it a
secret or when we don't reallydeal with it.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Yes, and shame can not only be a result of our
acting out or our fantasies orhowever we're judging ourselves
around those things, but it canalso be a driver of those things
that I want to separate fromand say, well, that's not really
(10:18):
me, that's not really like me.
And in my shame response tothat, we find ourselves going
back to the very things that wefor soothing, for numbing, for
escape, some ways of running andhiding, the very things that
brought us the shame to beginwith.
(10:38):
We get in a cycle and then allof a sudden, it feels like we
don't have any control over it.
It's an addiction.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Absolutely.
Can you give an example ofputting something sexual in your
shadow?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Yeah, me personally my mom would go to a psych
hospital and we would be farmedout to be cared for by others
for two or three months and thenwe'd be all back together.
Sometimes it was family,sometimes it was a couple from
church.
It was different almost everytime, and one of the times my
(11:14):
uncle, who really hadn't paidmuch attention to us, invited us
to come stay with him and theylived on the wealthier part of
town and the first night hesexually molested me and then he
continued to do that during thecourse of my stay.
Now being taught at five, wewant to look normal and then
(11:36):
we've got to keep family secretsset me up for at 12.
When that happened it being asecret and not telling anyone
there wasn't going to be anyonethat I felt safe to tell I went
off to summer camp.
Some folks at church paid myway for me to go to a summer
(11:58):
camp that summer and there wasenough freedom in there for my
body to express this trauma inmy life.
I got physically sick anddehydrated so much that I ended
up in the emergency room, and itwas my body's way of
communicating.
(12:18):
Something bad is going on in mylife, but my mouth never said
anything to anyone.
Fast forward to the early yearsof my marriage.
We had three or four years.
There was just Debra and Ibefore we got pregnant, and that
was wonderful.
By the way, 37 years togetherlast May.
So you know, by God's grace,yes.
(12:40):
And so there's something thathappens whenever a woman has a
baby it's like every cell in herbody is about that baby and
that's what I experienced I washaving, like we had a lot of fun
together in those first four orfive years of connecting and,
you know, we were free withoutthe kids.
And then, all of a sudden, Iwas second, like I was the
(13:04):
leftover of her energy for thosefirst, like that year, 18
months.
And it was during that timethat I started noticing women at
church, women at work, therestaurant waitress, et cetera,
that I really hadn't noticedbefore.
I mean, they didn't, they paledin comparison to the beauty of
my wife, but all of a sudden Iwas noticing them sexually and
(13:28):
thinking of them sexually and inthe absence of much connection
in the house, everyadvertisement was getting my
attention that had that wasselling sex.
Advertisement was getting myattention.
That was selling sex.
If you could say that Tabloidswould come into the mail, would
(13:49):
come to our house of the springcollection and the swimsuits,
and all of that was getting allof my attention Found my courage
and went and talked to mypastor and I said I'm really
struggling with this.
I think I'm not the only one.
How did you handle it when youwere a young father?
And he said I really neverstruggled with this, roy, but
I'm going to get you connectedto a couple of our leaders.
(14:11):
So I met on a Saturday morninghere.
I was like 24, 25 years old,you know, they were in their 70s
and we were drinking coffee andthey had their bottles out and
we prayed, and then they saidwhat can we help you with?
And I explained this to themand both of them denied that
they had ever struggled withthis before.
And it sunk me.
(14:32):
It sunk me.
It said Roy, you're the onlyone who really struggles with
this and you better not evertell anyone, because you're that
different and something is verywrong with you.
So I just put all of that inthe shadow and I acted like I
didn't struggle for a long time,for a long time.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
And I wonder if that season of not much sex at all in
your marriage was alsotriggering the piece in your
shadow of not being fully loved.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Oh, absolutely yeah.
Anytime that my wife and I havean interaction where some
desire of mine isn't met, that'swhere it usually lands in my
heart.
After doing so much work onmyself, it still pops up
occasionally.
It wasn't long ago.
(15:30):
I went out to eat.
I had to run to take care of anerrand for the family.
They brought my meal home butthey went and did some other
things.
So it was about four hoursbetween when I left the table
after I ordered my meal andwhenever they got back to the
house.
And for me, for Debra, my sweetwife, she was just connecting
(15:54):
with her family and enjoying.
They did some shopping, theywent and saw my son, all without
communicating to me.
But for me it felt like youjust don't love me, right?
If you love me, you would havethought hey, I need to let him
know we're not bringing him anyfood.
Go ahead and eat.
And it triggers that little boyunloved part of me.
(16:15):
That is not her fault, that'smy stuff, right?
It's not her fault that ittriggers me there.
And I can still make requestsaround how I would like for us
to move forward around thesethings, but early in my marriage
it was big hurt because Ihadn't done any work on this.
(16:36):
It was like I can't believe Imarried someone who doesn't love
me, you know, and I've got totry harder to earn her love.
And now it's an awareness thatthis is pinging this little part
and I need to take care of mylittle boy myself.
It's not my wife'sresponsibility to not step on my
triggers.
(16:57):
It's not her responsibility.
It's my responsibility to makerequests for what I want, right,
to speak up, to set boundarieswhere I need to.
But it's not, you know, it'snot her fault that she
accidentally steps on one of mytriggers.
It's my responsibility.
What?
Speaker 1 (17:17):
I do with it and that is so challenging and good.
So what happened when youattended your first crucible
weekend?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yeah.
So I had done some counselingin my early adult years you know
, late teens and early 20saround my surviving sexual abuse
and around the wounds of theabuse of my home and I thought I
had really dealt witheverything.
And I went to a crucibleweekend and God started dealing
(17:45):
with me on all of that.
God started dealing with me onthings that were still left
unhealed in those things andthat's where I discovered that
there's a little boy part of mewho's just dying for me to come
love and to square up with andto care for.
I was able to do a piece ofwork that was just remarkable.
(18:07):
I got to have a conversationwith the nurturing mom that
disappeared whenever I was five,around all of the painful ways
that I had been stayingconnected to her and the things
that the struggle that I hadbeen in around not feeling
worthy and not feeling loved andhaving to earn that love.
(18:29):
It was so powerful healing forme.
I think if I had done it in acounseling office it would not
have been so impactful, becauseI think part of what I've
discovered about my own recoveryand that I believe is true for
all recovery is it has to happenin community that we need
connection as part of thehealing process and where
(18:52):
they're doing their work too infront of me.
The safer my circle is, themore safe I feel to go back into
the darkest moments of my lifeand really look at things and
find the little boy in it andtake care of him.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
That's just amazing.
And also at a crucible weekend,everything is physical and
embodied Rather than in acounseling office.
It might just be talking aboutthings.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Right, right.
I think it would be difficultto live like doing a crucible
weekend every day of your life.
It is a unique place and we'renot the only ones, but it is a
unique place for that communityand that healing, so that you
can go back, if you're intherapy, to your therapy office
(19:43):
with some clarity, with somemotivation, with direction and a
big leap in your healingjourney.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yeah, and that's exactly what happened for me
when I went through my initialweekend in March.
I had anger in my shadow, theway that I was treated being
lectured, yelled at, spanked,misunderstood, with undiagnosed
ADHD.
That set me up to be bulliedand that set me up for a lot of
(20:17):
what came later and I believeporn is a bully as well.
My work was accessing my angerthat I had buried, that I had
disconnected from and steppinginto my power, reclaiming the
truth that I do care and, man,it felt so good.
(20:40):
I released some trauma and Ireclaimed my strength, which was
in my shadow.
Like I am a strong person, butI have often viewed myself as
not strong because I don't havethis stereotypical masculinity.
I'm six foot seven, butsometimes I feel like I'm four
(21:00):
foot 11.
And that's a bit of my shadowwork.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, my heart's tender, tender for you and it's
it really like sucks to go dowork on yourself.
It sucks, it's, it's painfuland you know, and going into the
wound, If it's been a festeredwound, it's more painful than if
you would have dealt with it inthe moment, shortly after.
But we got to go.
(21:28):
It's through that darkness thatwe get to the other side, where
now the darkness doesn't havethe power over me, but I'm
walking side by side with it andit doesn't mean I still won't
get triggered, but I have adifferent way of dealing with it
going forward.
I'm in awareness and I've mademy way out before.
(21:50):
There's a path.
That's new that if I keepmoving in that path every time,
it becomes the way that I dothings going forward eventually.
So think about neural pathwaydevelopment.
You know it's like we revisitthe scene of the crime, as it
were, and we find a differentway out of it than we ever have.
(22:13):
And as we get triggered in thefuture when it pops, when it
hits that we have a choice thatwe didn't have before to start
burning a new path.
So then it becomes theautomatic way that we move
eventually.
That's so good.
Bless you for going for it.
Drew I mean, I really thinkit's one in a hundred thousand
(22:35):
men would really go do this hardwork right, Would really go
back and get at the things thatthey've been hiding, repressing,
denying.
And those are the men that walkinto a room, that people sense
something's different about them.
There's some authenticity aboutthis man, and I don't know what
it is, but I want to follow him, or I want to get to know him,
(22:57):
or I want to be like him.
It's going back and dealingwith it that gets you to that
place.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
Yeah, I love how Crucible says if you want to
experience radical grace, youneed to be radically honest.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah, jesus was full of grace and full of truth.
And James 5.16 said you know,confess your sins one to another
.
I believe just confess the sinsthat you've done, but also the
sins that have been done to youthat it brings healing.
Right, we don't confess forforgiveness.
We confess to God forforgiveness he already forgives
us for.
(23:34):
But when we confess to others,there's healing in it.
And I believe one of the bestgifts of Crucible has been this
idea that I need to have alwaysin my life other men that I'm
living confessionally up to datewith that we are not hiding
from each other anything andwe're able to call each other
(23:58):
out as if we sniff any BS.
Right that we're able to calleach other out on it, because
that's how we can stay healed.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Amen, and there is something different about that
kind of community, that kind ofculture.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, you think about how he did life.
He lived authentically withothers as he did life and he
taught us that we can not putour sadness in the shadow but
cry.
He taught us that we can findour anger and use it to
accomplish good things.
That we can face fearful thingsand even express fear, but not
(24:40):
live with a spirit of fear.
Then we can move through and goahead, see the fearful thing
and move with courage through it.
I want to be more and more likeJesus in my masculinity, in my
masculinity and whenever Jesusencountered somebody who was
full of sexual shame he embracedeveryone who knew they were
(25:13):
broken.
Yeah, embraced and defended.
He drew a line in the sand, asit were, and said don't touch
this woman, right?
Do not touch this woman who gotin adultery, protected, saved
her life and then, in a way,blessed her.
He said yeah, I'm not waggingmy finger at you, let's go live
a good life.
Right, you got a reboot here, arestart, and I think that's
(25:33):
what he says to me, roy, in allyour imperfections, I love you.
You bring me pleasure.
I will use you, even in yourimperfection, because of your
imperfections.
And you are pure, you are pure.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I know you're doing incredible things the triads and
other ways of getting mentogether to be real with each
other.
I mean, that's the secret saucethat I think scripture speaks
to and that the research saysbrings healing, and I'm very
thankful for what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Thanks and Roy, I'm excited about what you're doing
too, especially at the CrucibleProject.
So you guys can go tothecrucibleprojectorg and if you
scroll down to the bottom youcan get a free PDF of Roy's book
Unstuck.
Can you say more about it?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yeah, so Unstuck is our principles around these
things that keep us, you know,doing things that we don't want
to do or, you know, stayingstuck because of fear.
I took the principles of ourretreat.
These are our teachings.
I took our teachings and putthem in seven steps to break
free and living courageously.
(26:44):
Now, reading the book isn'tgoing to get you unstuck, but
doing the things per chapterthat are discussed in the book
will, and you'll need community,so we suggest you read it with
others.
But I would love to give toyour community, drew, five
copies of my book that if a manwants to get a copy, they can
(27:07):
get it from you.
Otherwise they can find itwherever they get their books.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Awesome.
So if you want the PDF copy, goto thecrucibleprojectorg and
we're giving away some physicalcopies inside the Husband
Material community which you canjoin at husbandmaterialco.
Roy, what is your favoritething about getting unstuck and
outgrowing porn?
Speaker 2 (27:38):
myself like I was never loved before, and that is
in the circle of other brotherswho love me and that is in
community with God as well.
And so when I take a slip, Ihave a slip that I am able to
practice these tools incommunity.
That gets me through it again.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Beautiful.
Thank you so much.
Totally resonate with you andlook up to you in that.
Thanks for being on the show.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
It was such a pleasure, Drew.
Yeah, bless you Thanks.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Gentlemen, always remember you are God's beloved
son.
In you he is well pleased.
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