August 14, 2023 • 43 mins
How do you take action after relapse for growth and healing without using shame or punishment? After a porn relapse, what do appropriate consequences look like?
Nick Stumbo and Trevor Winsor are members of the Executive Team at Pure Desire Ministries. Together, they host the popular Pure Desire Podcast.
Free tools mentioned in this episode:
- Recovery Action Plan (for when a relapse has occurred)
- Escape Plan (for when we are triggered or tempted)
- Relapse Prevention Plan (for day-to-day life)
- The F.A.S.T.E.R. Scale (for self-awareness)
Register for the Pure Desire Summit at puredesire.org/summit!
Nick Stumbo is the Executive Director for Pure Desire. He has been in ministry leadership for over two decades. He was in pastoral ministry at East Hills Alliance Church in Kelso, Washington for 14 years. Nick has a Bachelor's in Pastoral Studies from Crown College, an MDiv from Bethel Seminary, and is a certified Pastoral Sex Addiction Professional (PSAP). He has authored two books, Setting Us Free and Safe: Creating a Culture of Grace in a Climate of Shame.
Trevor Winsor is the Marketing Director for Pure Desire. He has been in ministry leadership for 10 years. Trevor is a certified Pastoral Sex Addiction Professional (PSAP). He has a Bachelor’s in Psychology from Corban University, a Master’s in Ministry & Leadership from Western Seminary, and is a licensed pastor. Trevor is passionate about integrating trauma and addiction healing with spiritual disciplines to produce holistic healing.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thank you so much forlistening to today's episode
(00:22):
about Recovery Action Plan.
This is one of those tools thatcan really support you on your
journey to freedom from porn,specifically in helping you plan
for what to do if and when arelapse occurs.
Nick and Trevor have so muchwisdom about this and it was
really convicting for me.
I feel the need to update myown plan and have some
(00:46):
intentional conversations tomake sure that I'm continuing to
grow as life changes.
I think this will be reallychallenging for some of you guys
who are intimidated or feelshame about the idea of
consequences.
This is an empowering,grace-filled approach that I
(01:06):
think you're going to love.
Enjoy the episode.
Today, I am joined by NickStumbo and Trevor Windsor from
Pure Desire Ministries.
Welcome to Husband Material.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Thanks, man, I'm glad to be here.
Yeah, thank you, drew.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I'm glad to have you back.
It has been a long time and Ialso wanted to say thank you.
You guys really helped me getstarted when this podcast was
just a baby.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yeah, I mean I feel like you've been pretty
consistent posting stuff.
You know what I mean.
You've kept it up.
I know the difference betweenus and you is we've been an
organization longer, we havemore staff.
So the fact that you've beenable to pump out that much
content with really it justbeing you is impressive.
So well done, thanks.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Yeah, and I'm glad that I could bring all of my
technical know-how andexperience to really benefit now
.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Oh, was I not supposed to laugh?
Are you joking?
You're joking right, completely, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Well, pure Desire offers so many resources, so
many tools, so manyopportunities for healing, both
for men who are out growing pornand for betrayed partners.
And one of the most helpful,important tools that you guys
(02:22):
have developed and refined iscalled the Recovery Action Plan.
Why do we need a recoveryaction plan?
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Yeah, it's a great question, Drew, and something
that I think many of us havefound to be very instrumental in
our healing process.
And so, for those that are newto the concept, the recovery
action plan is essentially justour pre-stated plan of what
we're committed to doing in thecase of a relapse, and so I know
some people are a littleresistant because they feel like
(02:53):
, well, aren't you planning forrelapse?
And it's like, well, no, we'remaking a plan when we're in a
good state of mind in community,really looking at our values,
principles and ideals, to say,if that were to happen, here's
the steps that I will take towork towards recovery so that
it's not just more of the same.
Because most, if not all, of usthat have struggled with
(03:13):
sexually compulsive behaviorhave been stuck in that binge
purge relationship withpornography and we're used to
the purge side of, ok, I feelreally bad, I confess, I delete
my history or whatever I need todo, and I'm like, ok, that was
the last time, and I makepromises to God and myself and
maybe others, but then we foundthat really didn't change
anything because it was justabout trying to feel better and
(03:35):
deal with the guilt versusactually looking at.
Why did this happen?
What do I need to do about it?
And, in my mind, mostimportantly, how can I retrain
my brain that relapsing reallydoes have a consequence to it?
It has something that ispainful to me and helps me then
actually avoid going back to it.
(03:56):
And so that's why a recoveryaction plan is so key, because
there's kind of a Murphy's lawprinciple there, one of those
ideas that if you have it, youmay not need it, yep, but if you
don't have it, you're going toneed it.
And so when you put in arecovery action plan and you've
predetermined here are someconsequences I'm willingly going
to face to learn from myrelapse then you know those
(04:17):
things.
And when you're headed downthat old, familiar pathway,
you're starting to feeltriggered.
You're feeling tempted,something has caught your eye
and those old voices that, well,to be just this once, this will
be the last time, it's no bigdeal.
Then your brain works with youand goes Er, wait a minute,
we've made a plan here.
If I make that choice which Ican do, if I make that choice,
(04:37):
though, here are things I'veagreed to do, I've committed to
it.
And if I married to my spouse,to my group, to other people who
are in my life and I'm aware ofthe decision I'm making, has
some weight to it.
Now we're.
In the past, it was so mucheasier just to listen to those
voices and excuses because we'dsay, yeah, I don't really need
to tell anyone.
No one's really being heard,it's not a you know, I'll deal
(04:57):
with it.
But now it's like no, there'ssome stuff that's going to
happen, hopefully painful enoughto me that I don't want it to
happen.
And now I look at a relapse andgo you know what?
It's just not worth it.
And so even if you believe, man, I'm healthy and I'm never
going to relapse again, well,god bless you.
I hope that's true.
But there's wisdom in having aplan that, if that does happen
here, so I'm going to face it ina way that is responsible, that
(05:21):
shows growth and maturity, andnot just being one more format
of that binge purge cycle.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Yeah, and I do think that it's something that gives
you the opportunity to not like.
When this happens let's say, arelapse happens when you have a
plan like this, the consequencesthat we'll get into or the
reaction isn't going to be, asin the moment, reactionary you
already know you're going tohave a plan and so the stuff
that in the moment, if you don'thave a plan, the consequences
(05:46):
that you experience may feelpunitive.
You realize it's not becauseit's something you've
established with your partner or, if you're a single person,
you've established it with yourgroup, like no, no, no, if this
happens, this is our plan, andso it's a lot easier to accept
the plan you've already put inplace than feeling like, whoa,
hold on a second, why are allthese consequences coming out of
nowhere?
And so I feel like what it does, is it?
(06:07):
I think in some ways itactually the idea that we have a
plan makes the idea of I don'twant to be careful, I say this.
It doesn't make relapse good orlike okay, but it almost makes
relapse seem less of a scarything because we know if it
happens, we know what plan weneed to follow to make sure that
safety is created again, tomake sure that trust is being
(06:29):
built, to make sure that properguard rails and boundaries are
put back in place.
So it makes it a lot lessreactionary and more proactive,
for sure.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Yeah, and to make sure that if we do relapse and I
say if, because there are somethat don't experience relapse if
they really follow a program,they're staying in community.
It is possible.
But if there is a relapse, it'sa way of knowing this can be
part of my continued growth andchange, not just like a restart,
because that really is true andyou've got a recovery action
(06:56):
plan.
You will learn from yourrelapse, you will grow because
of it and you will look back, asmaybe some is, again.
We never want to say, well,relapse is a good thing, but I
know for many people in theirstory they say it was a relapse
that actually took my healing toanother level, because I
started to see some things Ihadn't seen before.
I had to walk through thatprocess.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
It sounds like a plan can really help you make the
most when the worst happens.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Yeah, totally yeah.
I mean, if you think about it,it's kind of like having triple
A you know car Picture.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
You don't ever want your car to break down, but
there's kind of a reality oflife that it happens and it's
good to know if it does, I knowwho to call, I know what steps
to take.
I'm not just going to besitting on the side of the road
going what do I do now?
And that's the same idea forrelapse Like I've got a plan, I
know what to do and it'sactually going to help me avoid
it because I'm already preparedahead of time.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
It sounds like even just making a plan can help us
realize the gravity of what's atstake.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Totally and in some ways, like I already know what's
going to happen if I make thisdecision, and so it's not like,
oh well, maybe if I make thisdecision I can weasel my way out
of it or manipulate thesituation or justify it.
It's like, no, if this happens,this is the plan, like this is
what's going to happen and so,yeah, definitely is a good
deterrent for sure for relapse.
Yep, I automatically.
Yep, good thing I did here iskind oflegally seasick as the
final one.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Yeah, and when you talk about consequences, there
are two types of consequencesnatural and logical.
What's the difference betweennatural consequences and logical
consequences?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah, so natural is, honestly, it's a result of the
choice that you made and it'snot someone like imposing it on
you.
And this in our recovery actionplan.
This is documented in that andI know Drew will link to it.
On our tools page you can findthat.
But it's something where it'slike well, naturally, trust is
going to be broken at that point, your relationship is going to
(08:49):
be injured, there's going to bea breach of trust and then
you're going to have to rebuild.
That's a natural consequence.
Another one is the guilt orshame that you may feel because
of it.
That's an easy one.
I mean, that's just a normalthing that you might have.
But then also looking at otherconsequences that might be
natural cost of your time, money, energy, whatever it may be so
(09:10):
that's natural.
Those are the no-duh type ofconsequences that you think of.
But a logical consequence arereasonable, necessary decisions
or consequences that come fromthis.
So let's say I use mysmartphone to relapse and a
logical consequence we can putin place is that I'm going to
actually have to get rid of mysmartphone and for six months
(09:32):
I'm going to put a dumb phone inmy hand.
And for those who don't knowwhat that means that's just
basically phones before theiPhone, maybe even before the
BlackBerry sidekick, whatever.
I'm not going to date myselftoo much here, but it's taking
active steps to then workagainst what happened with that
relapse, and so that's one ofthem.
Another one too could just belike my group right now is going
(09:54):
through the lesson actuallytonight on the Matrix of
Addiction.
So what's our cycle?
And for me, my cycle tended tostart with social media just the
browse, the explore page onInstagram, things like that.
And so if relapse happens andit happened because that's where
my pattern started then alogical consequence I might put
in place is, if that happens, Ideactivate or delete my social
(10:16):
media accounts for a certainperiod of time, and that's
something that's agreed uponwith my spouse so that they also
have that safety.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I think the phrase logical consequence helps us to
not just make these punishmentsbecause I think that's something
we do want to avoid that I'mnot just beating myself up
because I made a bad choice.
I'm trying to retrain my brain,I'm trying to learn that my
choices have consequences, evenif I have to choose some things
to reinforce that message.
And so the logical consequencesis just is there any way I can
(10:45):
connect the decision or thebehavior to the consequence?
Like Trevor was saying, withthe device I was on, maybe the
way I chose to isolate thethings that I was avoiding.
Now, instead of because I choseto avoid or isolate or use that
device, now I have to do theopposite, something that's hard
or painful or unwanted, butwhile I'm doing it, that's the
(11:06):
very pain that will change me.
So if you can help your brainconnect I'm having to do this
because I did that and it's notjust a random punishment that I
chose to say shame on me or lookat that bad choice I made, but
to really relearn like this is apainful thing to myself and to
others and relationships.
I don't want to do it again Now.
I'm going to be able to avoidit in the future.
(11:27):
So that's where a logicalconsequence really helps us keep
it separate from just beinganother, you know.
Again back to that purge idea.
It's not just another purgesession where I'm beating myself
up until I feel like I've paidpenance and now I can move on
with my life.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
It seems like having a recovery action plan could be
a choice that's made with honor.
It could be something thatactually helps you feel a sense
of integrity, but for so many ofus it could just feel like more
punishment.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
I think in some ways you know to your point about
growing up in the church.
I think sometimes it is like aright or wrong, black or white,
like shame on you, shame on metype of perspective, but really
like, without consequences, wewouldn't ever make any change.
Like if Adam and Eve sinned inthe garden and God didn't cast
them out of the garden, then,like, sin wouldn't have the
(12:17):
weight that it does, it wouldn'tbe something where we're trying
to actively work against.
And so I think, in some ways,in order to well, and here's
what's kind of funny we feelpain or discomfort in life.
Those are the things that tendto push us toward one of
behaviors, and the thing is isthat in order to actually work
against those behaviors, we haveto learn how to sit in the
(12:39):
discomfort and in the pain andunderstand why we're feeling
that, find healthy ways to meetthose needs or to soothe that
pain and then move forwardrather than numbing out.
And that's kind of one of thosethings where, like I get that
consequences are tough, but insome ways, the consequences
sometimes being brokenrelationship or painful emotions
that we're experiencing are theexact thing that we need in
(13:02):
that moment to actually take ournext step in health, and so I
mean I don't know if we'rejumping ahead to the toxic shame
question we can talk more aboutthat but I just think it's
something that we need to beaware of.
That consequences aren't bad.
I mean, we all have kids.
We know what it means todiscipline our children.
There are consequences for yourdecision, but because if I
don't do this, you're not goingto learn how to obey the Lord
(13:24):
better, how to be respectful ofother people, how to not be
self-centered, there's a lot ofpositive on the other side of
consequences.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
I think a difference to shame, punishment are rooted
in words like I'm worthless, I'mno good, I'm a mistake, I'm
just a bad person.
Because having a pre-plannedrecovery action plan can be
rooted in words like I'maccountable, I'm responsible,
I'm taking ownership for mychoices, I'm being a person of
(13:55):
my word, because I've told mywife or my family or my group
that I don't want to do thisagain and I'm committed not to.
And so, if I do like, being aman of my word and growing is
taking some ownership for that,to work on change and not just
stay stuck in the same pattern.
I think it's also helpful tonote the biblical foundation of,
(14:15):
particularly in the OldTestament, covenant, and I know
Old Testament, new Testament,like, well, now we're under
grace, yes, but the OldTestament also gives us some
really deep insights intocovenant relationship.
And when we think about thesacrifices that the people of
Israel were required to bring,it wasn't just because, well,
you're a bad person, you're asinner, so now you have to pay
for it.
It was terms that God gave themto stay in good relationship
(14:37):
with him, and so things that wesee.
Like you know, if someone stolean oxen, then he had to go and
if he was caught he might haveto pay back for oxen to repay or
to pay retribution and to showthat he was still going to be a
willing participant in thecovenant relationship with God
and other Israelites.
And it was in that example thatthey learned to steal no more
(14:59):
and that other Israelites saw,oh, stealing my neighbor's ox
when there wasn't you know muchestablished law in the
prehistoric world like that.
It has a cost, there's somethingto it.
That man, we don't want to godown that road because we just
saw so and so have to pay backfor oxen for what he'd done.
Wow, I bet he's going to learnand not do that again.
And it's kind of that sameprinciple of if I have that idea
(15:24):
that I'm going to pay back interms of making up for what I've
done so that I stay in healthyrelationship, well that's a
really good thing.
And so I think we see itthroughout the Old Testament.
You know, when Jesus encountersthat kiosk, we see it in his
life that he says I'm going topay back four times as much.
In a sense he was seeing thathis decisions had an impact on
(15:44):
others and he was paying backwhat he had done with the
interest on top, so to speak, toreally show that there was
change in his life.
And so I think that's anotheraspect of this, that our
recovery action plan, if werelapse, is a way that we show
maybe our spouse or our groupthat there's change happening in
my life, because in the past Ijust hid it, avoided it and
(16:04):
ignored it, and now I'm takingsteps to own it and pay back
essentially for what I've done,so that I learn and stay in
healthy relationships.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
I love that these rules are not for rules sake.
They're all for the sake ofrelationship, and I also hear
that behavior is important.
Like oftentimes, there's anover focus on changing our
behavior, and recovery is aboutso much more than behavior, but
it's not about less Sure.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
See, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
So this is so good.
I am already taking so muchfrom this conversation, so let's
get really practical about someof those appropriate action
steps.
Obviously, we're not dealingwith oxen here.
We're dealing with sexualchoices.
So what are some examples ofappropriate action steps?
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Yeah.
So you've got the naturalconsequences, which is just that
reminder to you.
Here's what it's going to cost.
No matter what it's going tohurt my relationships, it's
going to.
You know, it grieves the heartof God because I treat people
like objects.
So you've got that list infront of you.
When we think of action steps,it's more really those logical
consequences.
So it's commitments like who amI committed to telling within
(17:23):
24 hours of the relapse?
Because being honest with aspouse or a group is essential
to the whole plan.
So that commitment to honesty.
Many people will have acommitment then that I need to
reach out to a counselor orpastor or mentor, someone who is
essentially above me in myjourney that I'm reporting to,
to let them know and to seektheir counseling guidance.
(17:44):
Then Trevor already mentionedsome of these, but you know
ideas like if the relapse occurson a device, whatever that
device is, I lose access to it.
If the relapse happens during acertain time of day, someone may
make choices that they're notallowed to.
You know, be on a TV alone atnight, for example.
I know for many spouses when arelapse occurs, there is kind of
(18:08):
that that other spouse needstime to grieve or to figure out
how they're feeling, and theydon't necessarily want you in
the bedroom, and so there may beconsequences of sleeping in
another room or on the couch fora period of days.
So that that's another part ofit too.
Those action steps involve, ifI'm married, what does my spouse
need to recover and to heal andto process this?
And so I may choose someconsequences that are not
(18:30):
necessarily for me but are morefor them but are still painful
for me.
One of those you know on myplan my wife.
If there's a relapse, shedoesn't want me in another room,
because then there's still theissue of like well, what's he
doing?
What's he looking at?
Is he on his phone?
He's in another room.
She still wants me in our room,but I have to commit to
sleeping on the floor for threenights, or three nights per
(18:52):
however many relapses there were.
So that's a very unc.
I don't get a mattress oranything, I just get the floor
and a pillow.
It's like well, that would beuncomfortable Totally, but it
allows her space, like I don'thave to deal with him right next
to me, but I can still see thathe's in the room.
So that's an example.
I know others that they feellike boy.
If I've turned people intoobjects, then I want to do the
(19:13):
opposite and I'm going tofinancially support
organizations that are fightingsex trafficking or anti porn
groups or ministries like PureDesire.
So I have to give them myfinances in a positive way,
where I've taken my resources ina negative way.
So those are a few examples ofthings that I've seen on a lot
of different plans.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Yeah, and I think too I mean part of the process too
is creating an escape plan.
So when we are triggered orwe're tempted and this is
another tool that's on ourresources page that you're
literally putting a roadmaptogether of if I feel triggered
or tempted, okay, I already havea plan in place.
Here we go.
Another thing, too, that Nickwas talking about, with those
consequences.
(19:51):
I think it's important toidentify that these are things
that together, if you're asingle person, you do it with
your group or the community ofaccountability that you have.
If you're married, it'ssomething that you do with your
spouse.
But if you write them down,that's going to pay off much
better than like okay, let'sjust talk about it and agree on
it, and then, let's say, sixmonths down the road, a relapse
happens and you guys can'treally remember all of them or
(20:14):
you disagree.
That something was likeactually on the recovery action
plan.
So if you write it down, it'slike there's no arguing with the
plan.
This is the plan we talkedabout when we weren't in crisis
and we weren't at each other'sthroat.
It's like let's just, you know,let's do this.
But I love what Nick saidearlier.
In my mind, it's a reframe ofwhy we're doing this, and so one
of the things that is importantin this is writing out your
(20:35):
desired outcome, like what is itthat you're after?
What do you want this plan tohelp you accomplish in your
relationship?
How is this plan going to helpyou become a man or a woman of
integrity?
How is it going to help youbecome someone who's honest and
trustworthy, someone who canmanage painful emotions when
they experience it, who canmanage being triggered?
You know things like that, so Ithink that's another important
(20:56):
piece.
In my opinion, it's the mostimportant piece because it's
your why.
It's the true north of whyyou're doing this.
Why you're writing this stuffdown, why you're putting really
painful consequences on paper,is because you want to become
more of who God's called you tobe, and a better partner, a
better friend, a better sibling,whatever it may be.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
When you're making a plan like this and let's say you
have to use it a few times, howdo you know when to change the
plan or how to respond tomultiple ruptures, multiple
reopses?
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Probably not in the middle of crisis Like, hey, I
really feel like we shouldchange this plan, maybe, you
know, after some safety andtrust has been created and
rebuilt.
I think it's something thatboth whether again a single
person with their group or amarried person with their spouse
, having that conversation andknowing that it's something that
everyone needs to agree on tomake the change it can't be the
(21:59):
addicted partner saying, hey,look, I really want to get my
you know iPhone back and I wantto like, do sorry, nick Android
phone, and I really want to getback into this.
Can I do it?
And the partner's notcomfortable with it.
Then you don't change it.
It's got to be something thatyou both are okay with, and the
same thing with your group.
If you're a single person, it'slike look, I think I want to
(22:20):
get Snapchat or TikTok back onmy phone again.
What do you think?
And the group's like I don'tknow about that and here's why.
Then again, this is why you'redoing it with another person or
a group, because it's easy tojustify those changes in your
own mind, and so, again, it'strying to create safety and
integrity and trust, having thatbuilt again.
(22:40):
And so, yeah, that's why Ithink it's important.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
I think it's good to note that it's kind of normal if
we do have a relapse, becausewe're feeling the guilt and
shame again, even if we're, youknow, making progress, it's just
natural that some of those oldfeelings come back.
And it's very common that forthe guy or the gal who's
relapsed, they look at thatrecovery action plan, it's like
whoa, wait a minute, I don't, Idon't really have to do all
these things, do I?
And they realize in that momentthat maybe they made the plan
(23:06):
in a very ideal way and kind ofthat bravado and maybe in kind
of the purge idea of I'm nevergoing to do this again.
And so if I relapse, I'm goingto give away my car and I'm
going to move.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
I'm going to go all the and then they live under a
bridge.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
I can't really do that I don't have to do these
things, do I?
And that's why I think thecreation of the plan is so
important that you look at itand read and with you know, your
group or a mentor, your spouse,you, you really look at it and
say, am I absolutely committedto doing these if I relapse, and
we encourage people you know,sign your recovery action plan,
like sign and date it and saythis is my signature.
(23:39):
I'm in because some of thosefeelings are going to come if
you relapse, like wait, I, Ihave to sleep in the guest room
for two weeks.
I don't really have to sleepthat long, do I?
Like we didn't really mean this, like no, we, we did.
And it's an opportunity for youto really show I am committed
to my recovery and healing,whatever it takes.
And I'm not looking forshortcuts, I'm not looking for
the easy way around.
(24:00):
And so what I've said to youknow, men or women in this
position, is, if you relapse andyou're not great with what's on
your recovery action plan, youneed to do it anyway.
You need to completely fulfillit and then, when you're you're
done, like maybe a couple ofweeks down the road, you've
taken all the steps you'veimplemented the logical
consequences, then you mightcome back around and say, hmm,
(24:20):
here's some ways I think thiscould work better for me, for us
, and and talk about makingchanges then.
But you don't get to do itafter the relapse because like,
well, this isn't really what Imeant or I thought it would be
different.
It's like you got to just do itand then after that you can
look at making changes.
And might that be painful?
Yeah, but remember, that's thewhole point.
You're not gonna wanna do it.
(24:42):
It's not supposed to be easy,it's not supposed to be
convenient.
And if you're like, maybe youcommitted, if I relapse on my
laptop, I'll get rid of it for30 days, and you relapse on your
laptop and then you're sayingto your spouse, like, but I need
it for work and I've got allthese things, and like I'd have
to, like, go to the library toanswer email, spouse might be
(25:02):
like, yep, okay, okay, they'renot that concerned that it might
be inconvenient for you, butyou're gonna.
I can almost guarantee you'regonna have some objections in
your own mind that you hadn'tthought about when you created
the plan.
And I would just say thatthat's okay, like you've got to
face it and if it's harder thanyou thought it was gonna be, you
know, step up, be a person ofyour word and do it, and then
(25:24):
come back around and look atmaybe an adjustment for the next
time and to move forward.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
So good, I gotta beef up my plan.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
We all probably do that and that's, you know, a
good thing.
You could keep in mind therecovery action plan.
Even if you haven't relapsed,probably once a quarter or twice
a year, you need to make sureyou pull it out, read through it
and answer the question am Icompletely committed to this?
Because if you're not, it's notgonna work for you.
Now, when you're in earlyrecovery, I have encouraged guys
(25:55):
in my group like you need tohave your recovery action plan
somewhere you see it everysingle day, so that throughout
the day you know this is acommitment I have made and if I
relapse, these are things I amcommitted to doing.
And don't let that, you know,end up in a drawer where it's a
month later and, like Trevorsaid, I kind of forget what I
put on there and what's that biga deal?
I mean, maybe you've got acouple of years of sobriety, you
(26:18):
might not be as familiar withit, but that's where I'd say,
every couple of months, pull itout, read through it, make sure
you're committed to it.
But in early recovery, I thinkthis is one of those documents
you just need to be looking at,daily if possible, so you keep
it in front of you and reallyget the traction that you need.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Pure Desire has dozens of free tools on their
website and I'm going to put alink in the show notes so that
you can find the recovery actionplan, relapse prevention plan
and all of these worksheets thatcan be both helpful for addicts
and also for partners.
And in order to define what isa relapse for me, what is a slip
(26:56):
for me, how do I know if I'm inthe danger zone or if I'm in a
really safe, healthy place,there is a tool called the Three
Circles that can be reallyhelpful.
What are the Three Circles?
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Okay, so the Three Circles tool is something that,
and it literally is ThreeCircles you have a inner circle,
which is red, a middle circlewhich is orange or yellow,
depending if it's printed incolor, and then you have a green
circle, the outer circle, whichis the bigger one, and the
inner circle is relapse.
So it's the behaviors that youdon't want to go back to anymore
.
And so, in this context, porn,masturbation, sexually acting
(27:34):
out if you're single affairs,whatever it may be, and I would
say, over time, in recovery,what ends up in that inner
circle may change.
It may be watching R-ratedmovies by myself, and you can
get fuzzy into the middle circle, which I'll get to, but just
know that those are thebehaviors I don't want to do.
That's what I'm trying to avoid.
(27:55):
And then the middle circle isguardrails.
What are things that I need toput in place so that I don't end
up in my inner circle doingthose behaviors I don't want to
do again?
And Nick says this great line Ithink it's in our course,
sexual Integrity 101, thatguardrails are not set up at the
bottom of, like you know, thecliff.
(28:15):
They're set up at the top tohelp us not go over the cliff,
and so the idea is guardrailsare put in place back here in
the OAs so that I don't even getclose to that inner circle, and
so those are important as well.
But then the outer circle andthis is where I've been living
in for the last few years andreally, like I feel like that's
the season of life that I'm evenjust focusing on these.
(28:37):
These are the healthy behaviorsthat you do in replacement for
those unwanted behaviors, butthey're also things that you do
like self-care, buildingrelationships.
How am I pushing into communitymore, finding things that put
me in a better mental space orhelp my relationship with the
Lord?
And these are the mostimportant things for two reasons
.
One, self-care and taking.
(28:58):
You know, really just takingcare of yourself and managing
yourself is a very active thing.
It's not passive and is alsosomething that you need to be
really proactive, because Ithink that doing self-care only
when I'm triggered, like okay,sure, that makes sense, but also
it's something you need to doin advance, like I need to be
working on doing self-care sothat when I get triggered, I can
(29:21):
manage that in a healthy way.
And then the other thing aboutthe outer circle stuff is in his
book the Talent Code, danielCoyle talks about, that we
actually are physically in ourbrain, unable to unlearn a
behavior.
We have to replace it withsomething, and you see that in
Colossians taking off putting onthe idea of replacement
behaviors.
And so it's not just stoplooking at porn and masturbating
(29:44):
, it's also when I feeltriggered I go to a group member
or I make a phone call or I goon a walk or I journal or, and
so it's finding thosereplacement behaviors.
I know for you, drew, you're anoutdoor guy like you love going
on hikes and runs and you'recrazy and I don't understand why
you do those.
But they're good for youbecause they're things that help
you manage holistically yourhealth.
(30:06):
And those are replacementbehaviors from looking at porn,
from masturbating, from sexuallyacting out.
And so that's a brief overview.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
That inner circle is really important, where we
define what relapse is.
And I think it's important thatwe write it out and that, if
we're married and our spouse isengaged in the recovery process,
that they're clear on it too,because there's, you know,
typically on a you know plan,someone might write pornography
and masturbation.
Well, there's a lot of grayarea beyond what is pornography.
And so if you were at a gasstation and picked up a Bikini
(30:36):
magazine and looked at girls inswimsuits for a few minutes, did
you relapse?
In some cases in marriages,people would say absolutely yes
and other people would say, well, no, that's not, I'm not
worried about that.
So in your story and with yourspouse and what you're committed
to, you need to know what andbeing very clear, because I
think what will happen?
In our old nature, in our flesh, we will tend in those moments
(30:59):
to try to tiptoe right up towhatever the line is and we will
listen to thoughts of like well, this isn't really a relapse,
because you know dot, dot, dot.
And so we need to be crystalclear like no, this is a relapse
.
When I do this, I'm relapsingand I've stated it.
It's clear, there's no wayaround it.
So that's where that innercircle becomes really really
helpful, because it becomes thispicture of what am I committed
(31:20):
to avoiding.
And then that middle circle ofthe boundaries kind of handles
those gray areas Of where do Irealize when I'm veering in that
direction I'm in dangerousterritory and so I'm making a
plan to live differently.
And then that becomes the outercircle.
In some of our sessions, at PureDesire, I've taught this, like
as part of the three-leggedstool of recovery, that you've
(31:41):
got the relapse prevention plan,which is kind of my this is my
day in and day out commitment tohow I'm doing life in a healthy
way.
The second leg is the escapeplan, that this is what I'm
committed to doing if I'mfeeling triggered, if I'm
feeling drawn back to that oldstuff.
What do I do in those moments?
And then the recovery actionplan becomes what do I do if
there is a relapse?
And so those three workingtogether I think really is key.
(32:05):
If you only have one or two ofthem you're gonna be limited
because they you really need tohave all the phases thought
through Day to day life, momentsof trigger or temptation, and
then what do I do if a relapsedoes occur?
Speaker 1 (32:17):
This is all so proactive, not passive, and I
have found that whenever I findmyself drifting, it's not in a
good direction.
We don't drift toward God, wedon't drift towards being
healthy.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Unfortunately, heh.
Wouldn't it be nice, oh gosh,so nice.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
And for me, I am in the most dangerous susceptible
place.
As soon as I think I can coast,as soon as I think I've arrived
, my work is over.
That's actually a setup.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
And all of these different tools can be helpful
in maintaining momentum ratherthan settling.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Totally.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Yeah, yeah.
And that's where the threecircles become kind of that
barometer and that's where I'vesaid, you know, a lot of couples
will ask like, well, whatshould I be sharing?
What shouldn't I be sharingwith my spouse, what's too much?
And I think that three circlesplan is a great tool for couples
to know so that your spouse isaware.
Here's I've clearly definedrelapse and here's the
boundaries that I'm committed to, and I even give you permission
(33:24):
if you see I'm ignoring one ornot following this.
These are my commitments.
And then that green circle thatthey can see oh, you're
committed to exercising more oryou're committed to, you know,
going to group every week.
Those are your outer circlehabits and when our spouse sees
us doing those things, it buildstheir confidence that recovery
is happening, and so I thinkit's just a great communication
(33:44):
vehicle and something that everyweek we could just be looking
at.
In fact, I've had a lot of guysin group that they'll put it on
their wall or their mirror,just like every day, looking
okay, here's my plan.
And they'll say, if I stick tothe plan, I do really well, but
it's when I forget the plan,ignore the plan, like I said,
just start drifting into thingsand it's what's not.
You know, it's not porn or it'snot relapse, what's the big but
(34:05):
?
But I remember like, oh yeah,when I'm just scrolling social
media I'm moving towards my old,unhealthy pattern and I need to
keep that in front of me.
So I keep making wise choices,even in those really small areas
.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Another way to say that would be forgetting
priorities.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Starting to go down the faster scale.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Another tool that's on our website.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
So many good tools, can you share a success story or
two of how a recovery actionplan has been really helpful and
accomplish the purpose?
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Yeah, I think about one of the guys that I was in an
early group with who had comeup with a very unique logical
consequence and I've shared thisin other places, but they
recognized as a couple that whenhe had to share about a relapse
, it made his wife feeluncomfortable, icky, confined.
She just didn't like how itmade her feel.
And so they were like, beingcreative, well, what, what makes
(34:59):
you feel that way?
And he has kind of aclaustrophobia thing.
And so he said, if I have tocrawl under our house because
they have pipes down there thatoccasionally need some kind of
work or maintenance, I feelconfined, icky, gross, hate it.
And they're like okay, if yourelapse, you have to spend an
hour under the house, you know,working on those projects.
And you know, as it happened, acouple months later he had a
(35:23):
relapse, had to be honest withher and I was part of the plan
that he had called me andchecked in and he went under the
house and did that work and hewas like it.
He said I knew I would hate it,but there was something
powerful about telling myselfyou know, the reason you're
doing this is because of thechoice you made to look at
pornography and he said the waythat just kind of took my
(35:43):
awareness of this matters.
There's something I'm doing andI don't ever.
You know, it took it just to say, well, I'm never going to do it
again, to like, I really don'twant to have to be back here
because this is as unpleasantfor me as maybe what my wife is
experiencing, obviously in avery, very different way, and
and you know, for him it wasjust one hour, was a part of
that lesson.
(36:04):
So that's that's something Ifeel is really helpful to see
that on our recovery action plan, most of these logical
consequences we have can beaccomplished in a relatively
short time period.
But if it creates lastingchange, isn't it worth it, you
know?
Or if in a, if in a day or two,we can experience even a level
of the discomfort and pain thatmaybe our spouse feels from the
(36:27):
broken trust, wouldn't that be agood thing if it creates
lasting health for years andyears in your relationship?
And so it's.
It's kind of choosing thatshort term pain for the long
term gain.
You're not to be pithy withthat, but I think we all see it
was good when we make thosechoices.
If it creates lasting change,it's worth it.
And I yeah, I shared a littlebit of my own story.
(36:47):
There was a relapse a couple ofyears in and it was.
I had that reaction that Ishared like, well, I do, I
really have to do this.
It's, you know, it's been somany years, and it was like no,
you know, having to sleep on thefloor for several nights like,
okay, this is real and I don'tlike this.
And it was a way of openingthat conversation.
And here's the other thing I'dsay I think it really empowered
(37:10):
my wife to feel like she had avoice in it, because that was
something she had put on therecovery action plan, like I
want you to sleep on the floor.
And when I did that and I didit willingly, if not with a bad
attitude she was like, oh, youknow, there I have some role to
play here, that I'm not just avictim of his choices, that I
can see ways that we maybe couldwork on this together.
(37:31):
And so it actually, in the longrun, was was helpful for us,
because it brought her more intothe process in a way that you
know she never had been in thepast.
In the past it was just I wouldpurge and part of my purge was
confessed to her blog.
Get it all out there.
I feel better, she feelsterrible and we just kind of
moved on and and to have ithappen in a way that wasn't more
the same was really reallyhelpful in our marriage.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Yeah, and I've heard stories like that too, where the
betrayed partner feels moreagency, feels not like relapses
ever comfortable or okay orjustifiable.
But it's like you know, I'veseen some betrayed partners and
if anyone who is listening is abetrayed partner, this is not
necessarily normal, but this isa possibility where it's just
(38:14):
like, okay, you relapsed, weknow what to do.
Work the plan, you know.
And it's not a dismissive thing, it's something where it's like
look, we've put this in place,we know that this works and so
let's work this plan.
And then, once I've workedthrough that plan to start
rebuilding trust and safety,then we have conversations on
why it happened.
And again, this is somethingthat would help encourage both
the addict and the betrayedpartner to be in groups, to be
(38:37):
in an environment where you areworking through what you're
going through.
Why did you relapse?
How is this betrayal making youfeel?
How can you process that?
So I think it's important toalso be connected to community,
as, like this is not a tool todo by yourself.
Period, these tools that we'retalking about are things done
best in community.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Hey man, Pure Desire has groups for men and women on
both sides of the struggle.
I will also put links for it inthe show notes.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
We appreciate it.
Yeah, we do.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
You're welcome.
Thank you for providing so manyfree resources and making
healing more possible foreveryone.
Nick and Trevor, what is yourfavorite thing about recovery?
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Oh gosh, I saw your questions this morning and I was
just like this question sucksbecause there's just like.
There are days where I'm like,I don't like, like there's
nothing favorite about recovery.
But I think just and I'mleading a group of young guys,
all 20 somethings right now, andI know in this context I'm
seeing a lot of it more but Ithink, whether it's in myself or
(39:46):
with other people, seeing thosemoments of self-discovery,
those like aha moments wherelight bulb goes, where something
connects and clicks like, oh, Ihad no idea that the reason why
I react this way or I go tothese behaviors is because of my
relationship with my mom, orbecause when I was a kid, my
parents got divorced, or becauseI, you know, for me, like
(40:06):
whenever I feel stupid or I feeldumb, like that's a huge
trigger and I can point back tomoments in my life that I've
seen those.
So when I make thoseconnections, I can be like, okay
, all right, remember likeyou're okay, you're safe, you
are cared for.
Some of the things like and I'verecently done this where I had
(40:28):
a coach tell me to find apicture of myself, and the coach
was like look at that pictureof that innocent, that sweet,
that very valued and cared forkid and remember that's who you
are.
And so for me, what was helpfulis like being able to remember
those moments, and so I likebeing able to I mean, we've
(40:49):
talked about it with you beforelike the re-parenting stuff, you
know your inner child, but whenself-discovery happens, there's
a lot more awareness, and forme, when I have those moments or
I see those moments happen inother people, shame the level of
it just drops.
Like you become, you come toaccept yourself more and
understand how valued and lovedyou are by the Lord and by other
people.
(41:09):
And so when I see that stuff,man, that's like this is why I
do what I do, this is why I loveleading groups and this is how
I feel cared for from the Lordwhen those moments happen in my
story too.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Let's go.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
Yeah, I think my favorite part of recovery is
just getting to meet you, drew.
These kinds of conversationswouldn't happen unless we were
all in some kind of recovery andhaving community with people
that get it, that get your story, that you feel like I can talk
about just about anything, andthey can relate and be like yeah
, I understand what you'resaying in areas of our life that
(41:41):
with the average person, like,well, I'm not going there, but
in recovery, as you meet peopleon the journeys, you do group
with them as you get to, youknow, behind each other's
podcast there's just arelationship connection of like
man, this is real and this feelslike what relationships are
supposed to be like in all ofour walk of life.
And yet we're not currentlyexperiencing that, I think, in
many places.
So I do love the relationships,the community.
(42:03):
I would echo what Trevor saidtoo, that the way that in my own
life it just feels like it'sall connected, because I think
when we're, when we're juststruggling with pornography on
our own, we're trying to battleit, we're in the binge purge
cycle, we kind of see this as aseparate part of our life, like,
yeah, over here I have this oneproblem, but then my real life
is over here.
And then what we find out is inthis journey is like oh
(42:24):
actually, no, it's all connectedmy family of origin stuff, my
trauma story, the voices Ilistened to where did those come
from?
What's God trying to say?
Who did he make me to be?
It's all wrapped up even inthat behavior and what led to it
.
And when you start to see allthose connections and there's
all these kind of aha momentsalong the way, it's like holy
cow, I never thought of it thatway and they still happen.
(42:44):
You know, we're I'm 13 yearsinto this journey of recovery
and we still will do a podcastwith someone and they'll say
something in a new way.
And it's like, well, I've neverthought of my story through
that lens, like that, wow,that's really insightful.
And those moments like, well,that's really cool.
It's cool the way that ourstory connects and then we can
use that story to connect withothers and really enjoy those
(43:04):
relationships.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah, amen, guys.
Thank you so much, and if youwould like to hang out with Nick
and Trevor and some otherpeople in recovery who get it,
that's right.
Go to the Pure Desire Summit.
It's happening one week afterthe husband material retreat, so
you could even make a WestCoast trip out of it, as a
couple of people have done.
Yeah, that's right.
(43:26):
Go to the Pure Desire Summit,get more relational.
This is our whole life and Godis doing something amazing.
Yeah, and recovery action plancan be a part of that.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Yep, okay.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
So don't forget to go down to the show notes for a
motherload of awesome freeresources and tools.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
And always remember you are God's beloved Son and
you he is well pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thank you so much forlistening to today's episode
(00:22):
about Recovery Action Plan.
This is one of those tools thatcan really support you on your
journey to freedom from porn,specifically in helping you plan
for what to do if and when arelapse occurs.
Nick and Trevor have so muchwisdom about this and it was
really convicting for me.
I feel the need to update myown plan and have some
(00:46):
intentional conversations tomake sure that I'm continuing to
grow as life changes.
I think this will be reallychallenging for some of you guys
who are intimidated or feelshame about the idea of
consequences.
This is an empowering,grace-filled approach that I
(01:06):
think you're going to love.
Enjoy the episode.
Today, I am joined by NickStumbo and Trevor Windsor from
Pure Desire Ministries.
Welcome to Husband Material.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Thanks, man, I'm glad to be here.
Yeah, thank you, drew.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I'm glad to have you back.
It has been a long time and Ialso wanted to say thank you.
You guys really helped me getstarted when this podcast was
just a baby.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yeah, I mean I feel like you've been pretty
consistent posting stuff.
You know what I mean.
You've kept it up.
I know the difference betweenus and you is we've been an
organization longer, we havemore staff.
So the fact that you've beenable to pump out that much
content with really it justbeing you is impressive.
So well done, thanks.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Yeah, and I'm glad that I could bring all of my
technical know-how andexperience to really benefit now
.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Oh, was I not supposed to laugh?
Are you joking?
You're joking right, completely, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Well, pure Desire offers so many resources, so
many tools, so manyopportunities for healing, both
for men who are out growing pornand for betrayed partners.
And one of the most helpful,important tools that you guys
(02:22):
have developed and refined iscalled the Recovery Action Plan.
Why do we need a recoveryaction plan?
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Yeah, it's a great question, Drew, and something
that I think many of us havefound to be very instrumental in
our healing process.
And so, for those that are newto the concept, the recovery
action plan is essentially justour pre-stated plan of what
we're committed to doing in thecase of a relapse, and so I know
some people are a littleresistant because they feel like
(02:53):
, well, aren't you planning forrelapse?
And it's like, well, no, we'remaking a plan when we're in a
good state of mind in community,really looking at our values,
principles and ideals, to say,if that were to happen, here's
the steps that I will take towork towards recovery so that
it's not just more of the same.
Because most, if not all, of usthat have struggled with
(03:13):
sexually compulsive behaviorhave been stuck in that binge
purge relationship withpornography and we're used to
the purge side of, ok, I feelreally bad, I confess, I delete
my history or whatever I need todo, and I'm like, ok, that was
the last time, and I makepromises to God and myself and
maybe others, but then we foundthat really didn't change
anything because it was justabout trying to feel better and
(03:35):
deal with the guilt versusactually looking at.
Why did this happen?
What do I need to do about it?
And, in my mind, mostimportantly, how can I retrain
my brain that relapsing reallydoes have a consequence to it?
It has something that ispainful to me and helps me then
actually avoid going back to it.
(03:56):
And so that's why a recoveryaction plan is so key, because
there's kind of a Murphy's lawprinciple there, one of those
ideas that if you have it, youmay not need it, yep, but if you
don't have it, you're going toneed it.
And so when you put in arecovery action plan and you've
predetermined here are someconsequences I'm willingly going
to face to learn from myrelapse then you know those
(04:17):
things.
And when you're headed downthat old, familiar pathway,
you're starting to feeltriggered.
You're feeling tempted,something has caught your eye
and those old voices that, well,to be just this once, this will
be the last time, it's no bigdeal.
Then your brain works with youand goes Er, wait a minute,
we've made a plan here.
If I make that choice which Ican do, if I make that choice,
(04:37):
though, here are things I'veagreed to do, I've committed to
it.
And if I married to my spouse,to my group, to other people who
are in my life and I'm aware ofthe decision I'm making, has
some weight to it.
Now we're.
In the past, it was so mucheasier just to listen to those
voices and excuses because we'dsay, yeah, I don't really need
to tell anyone.
No one's really being heard,it's not a you know, I'll deal
(04:57):
with it.
But now it's like no, there'ssome stuff that's going to
happen, hopefully painful enoughto me that I don't want it to
happen.
And now I look at a relapse andgo you know what?
It's just not worth it.
And so even if you believe, man, I'm healthy and I'm never
going to relapse again, well,god bless you.
I hope that's true.
But there's wisdom in having aplan that, if that does happen
here, so I'm going to face it ina way that is responsible, that
(05:21):
shows growth and maturity, andnot just being one more format
of that binge purge cycle.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Yeah, and I do think that it's something that gives
you the opportunity to not like.
When this happens let's say, arelapse happens when you have a
plan like this, the consequencesthat we'll get into or the
reaction isn't going to be, asin the moment, reactionary you
already know you're going tohave a plan and so the stuff
that in the moment, if you don'thave a plan, the consequences
(05:46):
that you experience may feelpunitive.
You realize it's not becauseit's something you've
established with your partner or, if you're a single person,
you've established it with yourgroup, like no, no, no, if this
happens, this is our plan, andso it's a lot easier to accept
the plan you've already put inplace than feeling like, whoa,
hold on a second, why are allthese consequences coming out of
nowhere?
And so I feel like what it does, is it?
(06:07):
I think in some ways itactually the idea that we have a
plan makes the idea of I don'twant to be careful, I say this.
It doesn't make relapse good orlike okay, but it almost makes
relapse seem less of a scarything because we know if it
happens, we know what plan weneed to follow to make sure that
safety is created again, tomake sure that trust is being
(06:29):
built, to make sure that properguard rails and boundaries are
put back in place.
So it makes it a lot lessreactionary and more proactive,
for sure.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Yeah, and to make sure that if we do relapse and I
say if, because there are somethat don't experience relapse if
they really follow a program,they're staying in community.
It is possible.
But if there is a relapse, it'sa way of knowing this can be
part of my continued growth andchange, not just like a restart,
because that really is true andyou've got a recovery action
(06:56):
plan.
You will learn from yourrelapse, you will grow because
of it and you will look back, asmaybe some is, again.
We never want to say, well,relapse is a good thing, but I
know for many people in theirstory they say it was a relapse
that actually took my healing toanother level, because I
started to see some things Ihadn't seen before.
I had to walk through thatprocess.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
It sounds like a plan can really help you make the
most when the worst happens.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Yeah, totally yeah.
I mean, if you think about it,it's kind of like having triple
A you know car Picture.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
You don't ever want your car to break down, but
there's kind of a reality oflife that it happens and it's
good to know if it does, I knowwho to call, I know what steps
to take.
I'm not just going to besitting on the side of the road
going what do I do now?
And that's the same idea forrelapse Like I've got a plan, I
know what to do and it'sactually going to help me avoid
it because I'm already preparedahead of time.
Yep.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
It sounds like even just making a plan can help us
realize the gravity of what's atstake.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Totally and in some ways, like I already know what's
going to happen if I make thisdecision, and so it's not like,
oh well, maybe if I make thisdecision I can weasel my way out
of it or manipulate thesituation or justify it.
It's like, no, if this happens,this is the plan, like this is
what's going to happen and so,yeah, definitely is a good
deterrent for sure for relapse.
Yep, I automatically.
Yep, good thing I did here iskind oflegally seasick as the
final one.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Yeah, and when you talk about consequences, there
are two types of consequencesnatural and logical.
What's the difference betweennatural consequences and logical
consequences?
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Yeah, so natural is, honestly, it's a result of the
choice that you made and it'snot someone like imposing it on
you.
And this in our recovery actionplan.
This is documented in that andI know Drew will link to it.
On our tools page you can findthat.
But it's something where it'slike well, naturally, trust is
going to be broken at that point, your relationship is going to
(08:49):
be injured, there's going to bea breach of trust and then
you're going to have to rebuild.
That's a natural consequence.
Another one is the guilt orshame that you may feel because
of it.
That's an easy one.
I mean, that's just a normalthing that you might have.
But then also looking at otherconsequences that might be
natural cost of your time, money, energy, whatever it may be so
(09:10):
that's natural.
Those are the no-duh type ofconsequences that you think of.
But a logical consequence arereasonable, necessary decisions
or consequences that come fromthis.
So let's say I use mysmartphone to relapse and a
logical consequence we can putin place is that I'm going to
actually have to get rid of mysmartphone and for six months
(09:32):
I'm going to put a dumb phone inmy hand.
And for those who don't knowwhat that means that's just
basically phones before theiPhone, maybe even before the
BlackBerry sidekick, whatever.
I'm not going to date myselftoo much here, but it's taking
active steps to then workagainst what happened with that
relapse, and so that's one ofthem.
Another one too could just belike my group right now is going
(09:54):
through the lesson actuallytonight on the Matrix of
Addiction.
So what's our cycle?
And for me, my cycle tended tostart with social media just the
browse, the explore page onInstagram, things like that.
And so if relapse happens andit happened because that's where
my pattern started then alogical consequence I might put
in place is, if that happens, Ideactivate or delete my social
(10:16):
media accounts for a certainperiod of time, and that's
something that's agreed uponwith my spouse so that they also
have that safety.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I think the phrase logical consequence helps us to
not just make these punishmentsbecause I think that's something
we do want to avoid that I'mnot just beating myself up
because I made a bad choice.
I'm trying to retrain my brain,I'm trying to learn that my
choices have consequences, evenif I have to choose some things
to reinforce that message.
And so the logical consequencesis just is there any way I can
(10:45):
connect the decision or thebehavior to the consequence?
Like Trevor was saying, withthe device I was on, maybe the
way I chose to isolate thethings that I was avoiding.
Now, instead of because I choseto avoid or isolate or use that
device, now I have to do theopposite, something that's hard
or painful or unwanted, butwhile I'm doing it, that's the
(11:06):
very pain that will change me.
So if you can help your brainconnect I'm having to do this
because I did that and it's notjust a random punishment that I
chose to say shame on me or lookat that bad choice I made, but
to really relearn like this is apainful thing to myself and to
others and relationships.
I don't want to do it again Now.
I'm going to be able to avoidit in the future.
(11:27):
So that's where a logicalconsequence really helps us keep
it separate from just beinganother, you know.
Again back to that purge idea.
It's not just another purgesession where I'm beating myself
up until I feel like I've paidpenance and now I can move on
with my life.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
It seems like having a recovery action plan could be
a choice that's made with honor.
It could be something thatactually helps you feel a sense
of integrity, but for so many ofus it could just feel like more
punishment.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
I think in some ways you know to your point about
growing up in the church.
I think sometimes it is like aright or wrong, black or white,
like shame on you, shame on metype of perspective, but really
like, without consequences, wewouldn't ever make any change.
Like if Adam and Eve sinned inthe garden and God didn't cast
them out of the garden, then,like, sin wouldn't have the
(12:17):
weight that it does, it wouldn'tbe something where we're trying
to actively work against.
And so I think, in some ways,in order to well, and here's
what's kind of funny we feelpain or discomfort in life.
Those are the things that tendto push us toward one of
behaviors, and the thing is isthat in order to actually work
against those behaviors, we haveto learn how to sit in the
(12:39):
discomfort and in the pain andunderstand why we're feeling
that, find healthy ways to meetthose needs or to soothe that
pain and then move forwardrather than numbing out.
And that's kind of one of thosethings where, like I get that
consequences are tough, but insome ways, the consequences
sometimes being brokenrelationship or painful emotions
that we're experiencing are theexact thing that we need in
(13:02):
that moment to actually take ournext step in health, and so I
mean I don't know if we'rejumping ahead to the toxic shame
question we can talk more aboutthat but I just think it's
something that we need to beaware of.
That consequences aren't bad.
I mean, we all have kids.
We know what it means todiscipline our children.
There are consequences for yourdecision, but because if I
don't do this, you're not goingto learn how to obey the Lord
(13:24):
better, how to be respectful ofother people, how to not be
self-centered, there's a lot ofpositive on the other side of
consequences.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
I think a difference to shame, punishment are rooted
in words like I'm worthless, I'mno good, I'm a mistake, I'm
just a bad person.
Because having a pre-plannedrecovery action plan can be
rooted in words like I'maccountable, I'm responsible,
I'm taking ownership for mychoices, I'm being a person of
(13:55):
my word, because I've told mywife or my family or my group
that I don't want to do thisagain and I'm committed not to.
And so, if I do like, being aman of my word and growing is
taking some ownership for that,to work on change and not just
stay stuck in the same pattern.
I think it's also helpful tonote the biblical foundation of,
(14:15):
particularly in the OldTestament, covenant, and I know
Old Testament, new Testament,like, well, now we're under
grace, yes, but the OldTestament also gives us some
really deep insights intocovenant relationship.
And when we think about thesacrifices that the people of
Israel were required to bring,it wasn't just because, well,
you're a bad person, you're asinner, so now you have to pay
for it.
It was terms that God gave themto stay in good relationship
(14:37):
with him, and so things that wesee.
Like you know, if someone stolean oxen, then he had to go and
if he was caught he might haveto pay back for oxen to repay or
to pay retribution and to showthat he was still going to be a
willing participant in thecovenant relationship with God
and other Israelites.
And it was in that example thatthey learned to steal no more
(14:59):
and that other Israelites saw,oh, stealing my neighbor's ox
when there wasn't you know muchestablished law in the
prehistoric world like that.
It has a cost, there's somethingto it.
That man, we don't want to godown that road because we just
saw so and so have to pay backfor oxen for what he'd done.
Wow, I bet he's going to learnand not do that again.
And it's kind of that sameprinciple of if I have that idea
(15:24):
that I'm going to pay back interms of making up for what I've
done so that I stay in healthyrelationship, well that's a
really good thing.
And so I think we see itthroughout the Old Testament.
You know, when Jesus encountersthat kiosk, we see it in his
life that he says I'm going topay back four times as much.
In a sense he was seeing thathis decisions had an impact on
(15:44):
others and he was paying backwhat he had done with the
interest on top, so to speak, toreally show that there was
change in his life.
And so I think that's anotheraspect of this, that our
recovery action plan, if werelapse, is a way that we show
maybe our spouse or our groupthat there's change happening in
my life, because in the past Ijust hid it, avoided it and
(16:04):
ignored it, and now I'm takingsteps to own it and pay back
essentially for what I've done,so that I learn and stay in
healthy relationships.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
I love that these rules are not for rules sake.
They're all for the sake ofrelationship, and I also hear
that behavior is important.
Like oftentimes, there's anover focus on changing our
behavior, and recovery is aboutso much more than behavior, but
it's not about less Sure.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
See, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
So this is so good.
I am already taking so muchfrom this conversation, so let's
get really practical about someof those appropriate action
steps.
Obviously, we're not dealingwith oxen here.
We're dealing with sexualchoices.
So what are some examples ofappropriate action steps?
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Yeah.
So you've got the naturalconsequences, which is just that
reminder to you.
Here's what it's going to cost.
No matter what it's going tohurt my relationships, it's
going to.
You know, it grieves the heartof God because I treat people
like objects.
So you've got that list infront of you.
When we think of action steps,it's more really those logical
consequences.
So it's commitments like who amI committed to telling within
(17:23):
24 hours of the relapse?
Because being honest with aspouse or a group is essential
to the whole plan.
So that commitment to honesty.
Many people will have acommitment then that I need to
reach out to a counselor orpastor or mentor, someone who is
essentially above me in myjourney that I'm reporting to,
to let them know and to seektheir counseling guidance.
(17:44):
Then Trevor already mentionedsome of these, but you know
ideas like if the relapse occurson a device, whatever that
device is, I lose access to it.
If the relapse happens during acertain time of day, someone may
make choices that they're notallowed to.
You know, be on a TV alone atnight, for example.
I know for many spouses when arelapse occurs, there is kind of
(18:08):
that that other spouse needstime to grieve or to figure out
how they're feeling, and theydon't necessarily want you in
the bedroom, and so there may beconsequences of sleeping in
another room or on the couch fora period of days.
So that that's another part ofit too.
Those action steps involve, ifI'm married, what does my spouse
need to recover and to heal andto process this?
And so I may choose someconsequences that are not
(18:30):
necessarily for me but are morefor them but are still painful
for me.
One of those you know on myplan my wife.
If there's a relapse, shedoesn't want me in another room,
because then there's still theissue of like well, what's he
doing?
What's he looking at?
Is he on his phone?
He's in another room.
She still wants me in our room,but I have to commit to
sleeping on the floor for threenights, or three nights per
(18:52):
however many relapses there were.
So that's a very unc.
I don't get a mattress oranything, I just get the floor
and a pillow.
It's like well, that would beuncomfortable Totally, but it
allows her space, like I don'thave to deal with him right next
to me, but I can still see thathe's in the room.
So that's an example.
I know others that they feellike boy.
If I've turned people intoobjects, then I want to do the
(19:13):
opposite and I'm going tofinancially support
organizations that are fightingsex trafficking or anti porn
groups or ministries like PureDesire.
So I have to give them myfinances in a positive way,
where I've taken my resources ina negative way.
So those are a few examples ofthings that I've seen on a lot
of different plans.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Yeah, and I think too I mean part of the process too
is creating an escape plan.
So when we are triggered orwe're tempted and this is
another tool that's on ourresources page that you're
literally putting a roadmaptogether of if I feel triggered
or tempted, okay, I already havea plan in place.
Here we go.
Another thing, too, that Nickwas talking about, with those
consequences.
(19:51):
I think it's important toidentify that these are things
that together, if you're asingle person, you do it with
your group or the community ofaccountability that you have.
If you're married, it'ssomething that you do with your
spouse.
But if you write them down,that's going to pay off much
better than like okay, let'sjust talk about it and agree on
it, and then, let's say, sixmonths down the road, a relapse
happens and you guys can'treally remember all of them or
(20:14):
you disagree.
That something was likeactually on the recovery action
plan.
So if you write it down, it'slike there's no arguing with the
plan.
This is the plan we talkedabout when we weren't in crisis
and we weren't at each other'sthroat.
It's like let's just, you know,let's do this.
But I love what Nick saidearlier.
In my mind, it's a reframe ofwhy we're doing this, and so one
of the things that is importantin this is writing out your
(20:35):
desired outcome, like what is itthat you're after?
What do you want this plan tohelp you accomplish in your
relationship?
How is this plan going to helpyou become a man or a woman of
integrity?
How is it going to help youbecome someone who's honest and
trustworthy, someone who canmanage painful emotions when
they experience it, who canmanage being triggered?
You know things like that, so Ithink that's another important
(20:56):
piece.
In my opinion, it's the mostimportant piece because it's
your why.
It's the true north of whyyou're doing this.
Why you're writing this stuffdown, why you're putting really
painful consequences on paper,is because you want to become
more of who God's called you tobe, and a better partner, a
better friend, a better sibling,whatever it may be.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
When you're making a plan like this and let's say you
have to use it a few times, howdo you know when to change the
plan or how to respond tomultiple ruptures, multiple
reopses?
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Probably not in the middle of crisis Like, hey, I
really feel like we shouldchange this plan, maybe, you
know, after some safety andtrust has been created and
rebuilt.
I think it's something thatboth whether again a single
person with their group or amarried person with their spouse
, having that conversation andknowing that it's something that
everyone needs to agree on tomake the change it can't be the
(21:59):
addicted partner saying, hey,look, I really want to get my
you know iPhone back and I wantto like, do sorry, nick Android
phone, and I really want to getback into this.
Can I do it?
And the partner's notcomfortable with it.
Then you don't change it.
It's got to be something thatyou both are okay with, and the
same thing with your group.
If you're a single person, it'slike look, I think I want to
(22:20):
get Snapchat or TikTok back onmy phone again.
What do you think?
And the group's like I don'tknow about that and here's why.
Then again, this is why you'redoing it with another person or
a group, because it's easy tojustify those changes in your
own mind, and so, again, it'strying to create safety and
integrity and trust, having thatbuilt again.
(22:40):
And so, yeah, that's why Ithink it's important.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
I think it's good to note that it's kind of normal if
we do have a relapse, becausewe're feeling the guilt and
shame again, even if we're, youknow, making progress, it's just
natural that some of those oldfeelings come back.
And it's very common that forthe guy or the gal who's
relapsed, they look at thatrecovery action plan, it's like
whoa, wait a minute, I don't, Idon't really have to do all
these things, do I?
And they realize in that momentthat maybe they made the plan
(23:06):
in a very ideal way and kind ofthat bravado and maybe in kind
of the purge idea of I'm nevergoing to do this again.
And so if I relapse, I'm goingto give away my car and I'm
going to move.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
I'm going to go all the and then they live under a
bridge.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
I can't really do that I don't have to do these
things, do I?
And that's why I think thecreation of the plan is so
important that you look at itand read and with you know, your
group or a mentor, your spouse,you, you really look at it and
say, am I absolutely committedto doing these if I relapse, and
we encourage people you know,sign your recovery action plan,
like sign and date it and saythis is my signature.
(23:39):
I'm in because some of thosefeelings are going to come if
you relapse, like wait, I, Ihave to sleep in the guest room
for two weeks.
I don't really have to sleepthat long, do I?
Like we didn't really mean this, like no, we, we did.
And it's an opportunity for youto really show I am committed
to my recovery and healing,whatever it takes.
And I'm not looking forshortcuts, I'm not looking for
the easy way around.
(24:00):
And so what I've said to youknow, men or women in this
position, is, if you relapse andyou're not great with what's on
your recovery action plan, youneed to do it anyway.
You need to completely fulfillit and then, when you're you're
done, like maybe a couple ofweeks down the road, you've
taken all the steps you'veimplemented the logical
consequences, then you mightcome back around and say, hmm,
(24:20):
here's some ways I think thiscould work better for me, for us
, and and talk about makingchanges then.
But you don't get to do itafter the relapse because like,
well, this isn't really what Imeant or I thought it would be
different.
It's like you got to just do itand then after that you can
look at making changes.
And might that be painful?
Yeah, but remember, that's thewhole point.
You're not gonna wanna do it.
(24:42):
It's not supposed to be easy,it's not supposed to be
convenient.
And if you're like, maybe youcommitted, if I relapse on my
laptop, I'll get rid of it for30 days, and you relapse on your
laptop and then you're sayingto your spouse, like, but I need
it for work and I've got allthese things, and like I'd have
to, like, go to the library toanswer email, spouse might be
(25:02):
like, yep, okay, okay, they'renot that concerned that it might
be inconvenient for you, butyou're gonna.
I can almost guarantee you'regonna have some objections in
your own mind that you hadn'tthought about when you created
the plan.
And I would just say thatthat's okay, like you've got to
face it and if it's harder thanyou thought it was gonna be, you
know, step up, be a person ofyour word and do it, and then
(25:24):
come back around and look atmaybe an adjustment for the next
time and to move forward.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
So good, I gotta beef up my plan.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
We all probably do that and that's, you know, a
good thing.
You could keep in mind therecovery action plan.
Even if you haven't relapsed,probably once a quarter or twice
a year, you need to make sureyou pull it out, read through it
and answer the question am Icompletely committed to this?
Because if you're not, it's notgonna work for you.
Now, when you're in earlyrecovery, I have encouraged guys
(25:55):
in my group like you need tohave your recovery action plan
somewhere you see it everysingle day, so that throughout
the day you know this is acommitment I have made and if I
relapse, these are things I amcommitted to doing.
And don't let that, you know,end up in a drawer where it's a
month later and, like Trevorsaid, I kind of forget what I
put on there and what's that biga deal?
I mean, maybe you've got acouple of years of sobriety, you
(26:18):
might not be as familiar withit, but that's where I'd say,
every couple of months, pull itout, read through it, make sure
you're committed to it.
But in early recovery, I thinkthis is one of those documents
you just need to be looking at,daily if possible, so you keep
it in front of you and reallyget the traction that you need.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Pure Desire has dozens of free tools on their
website and I'm going to put alink in the show notes so that
you can find the recovery actionplan, relapse prevention plan
and all of these worksheets thatcan be both helpful for addicts
and also for partners.
And in order to define what isa relapse for me, what is a slip
(26:56):
for me, how do I know if I'm inthe danger zone or if I'm in a
really safe, healthy place,there is a tool called the Three
Circles that can be reallyhelpful.
What are the Three Circles?
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Okay, so the Three Circles tool is something that,
and it literally is ThreeCircles you have a inner circle,
which is red, a middle circlewhich is orange or yellow,
depending if it's printed incolor, and then you have a green
circle, the outer circle, whichis the bigger one, and the
inner circle is relapse.
So it's the behaviors that youdon't want to go back to anymore
.
And so, in this context, porn,masturbation, sexually acting
(27:34):
out if you're single affairs,whatever it may be, and I would
say, over time, in recovery,what ends up in that inner
circle may change.
It may be watching R-ratedmovies by myself, and you can
get fuzzy into the middle circle, which I'll get to, but just
know that those are thebehaviors I don't want to do.
That's what I'm trying to avoid.
(27:55):
And then the middle circle isguardrails.
What are things that I need toput in place so that I don't end
up in my inner circle doingthose behaviors I don't want to
do again?
And Nick says this great line Ithink it's in our course,
sexual Integrity 101, thatguardrails are not set up at the
bottom of, like you know, thecliff.
(28:15):
They're set up at the top tohelp us not go over the cliff,
and so the idea is guardrailsare put in place back here in
the OAs so that I don't even getclose to that inner circle, and
so those are important as well.
But then the outer circle andthis is where I've been living
in for the last few years andreally, like I feel like that's
the season of life that I'm evenjust focusing on these.
(28:37):
These are the healthy behaviorsthat you do in replacement for
those unwanted behaviors, butthey're also things that you do
like self-care, buildingrelationships.
How am I pushing into communitymore, finding things that put
me in a better mental space orhelp my relationship with the
Lord?
And these are the mostimportant things for two reasons
.
One, self-care and taking.
(28:58):
You know, really just takingcare of yourself and managing
yourself is a very active thing.
It's not passive and is alsosomething that you need to be
really proactive, because Ithink that doing self-care only
when I'm triggered, like okay,sure, that makes sense, but also
it's something you need to doin advance, like I need to be
working on doing self-care sothat when I get triggered, I can
(29:21):
manage that in a healthy way.
And then the other thing aboutthe outer circle stuff is in his
book the Talent Code, danielCoyle talks about, that we
actually are physically in ourbrain, unable to unlearn a
behavior.
We have to replace it withsomething, and you see that in
Colossians taking off putting onthe idea of replacement
behaviors.
And so it's not just stoplooking at porn and masturbating
(29:44):
, it's also when I feeltriggered I go to a group member
or I make a phone call or I goon a walk or I journal or, and
so it's finding thosereplacement behaviors.
I know for you, drew, you're anoutdoor guy like you love going
on hikes and runs and you'recrazy and I don't understand why
you do those.
But they're good for youbecause they're things that help
you manage holistically yourhealth.
(30:06):
And those are replacementbehaviors from looking at porn,
from masturbating, from sexuallyacting out.
And so that's a brief overview.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
That inner circle is really important, where we
define what relapse is.
And I think it's important thatwe write it out and that, if
we're married and our spouse isengaged in the recovery process,
that they're clear on it too,because there's, you know,
typically on a you know plan,someone might write pornography
and masturbation.
Well, there's a lot of grayarea beyond what is pornography.
And so if you were at a gasstation and picked up a Bikini
(30:36):
magazine and looked at girls inswimsuits for a few minutes, did
you relapse?
In some cases in marriages,people would say absolutely yes
and other people would say, well, no, that's not, I'm not
worried about that.
So in your story and with yourspouse and what you're committed
to, you need to know what andbeing very clear, because I
think what will happen?
In our old nature, in our flesh, we will tend in those moments
(30:59):
to try to tiptoe right up towhatever the line is and we will
listen to thoughts of like well, this isn't really a relapse,
because you know dot, dot, dot.
And so we need to be crystalclear like no, this is a relapse
.
When I do this, I'm relapsingand I've stated it.
It's clear, there's no wayaround it.
So that's where that innercircle becomes really really
helpful, because it becomes thispicture of what am I committed
(31:20):
to avoiding.
And then that middle circle ofthe boundaries kind of handles
those gray areas Of where do Irealize when I'm veering in that
direction I'm in dangerousterritory and so I'm making a
plan to live differently.
And then that becomes the outercircle.
In some of our sessions, at PureDesire, I've taught this, like
as part of the three-leggedstool of recovery, that you've
(31:41):
got the relapse prevention plan,which is kind of my this is my
day in and day out commitment tohow I'm doing life in a healthy
way.
The second leg is the escapeplan, that this is what I'm
committed to doing if I'mfeeling triggered, if I'm
feeling drawn back to that oldstuff.
What do I do in those moments?
And then the recovery actionplan becomes what do I do if
there is a relapse?
And so those three workingtogether I think really is key.
(32:05):
If you only have one or two ofthem you're gonna be limited
because they you really need tohave all the phases thought
through Day to day life, momentsof trigger or temptation, and
then what do I do if a relapsedoes occur?
Speaker 1 (32:17):
This is all so proactive, not passive, and I
have found that whenever I findmyself drifting, it's not in a
good direction.
We don't drift toward God, wedon't drift towards being
healthy.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Unfortunately, heh.
Wouldn't it be nice, oh gosh,so nice.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
And for me, I am in the most dangerous susceptible
place.
As soon as I think I can coast,as soon as I think I've arrived
, my work is over.
That's actually a setup.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
And all of these different tools can be helpful
in maintaining momentum ratherthan settling.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Totally.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Yeah, yeah.
And that's where the threecircles become kind of that
barometer and that's where I'vesaid, you know, a lot of couples
will ask like, well, whatshould I be sharing?
What shouldn't I be sharingwith my spouse, what's too much?
And I think that three circlesplan is a great tool for couples
to know so that your spouse isaware.
Here's I've clearly definedrelapse and here's the
boundaries that I'm committed to, and I even give you permission
(33:24):
if you see I'm ignoring one ornot following this.
These are my commitments.
And then that green circle thatthey can see oh, you're
committed to exercising more oryou're committed to, you know,
going to group every week.
Those are your outer circlehabits and when our spouse sees
us doing those things, it buildstheir confidence that recovery
is happening, and so I thinkit's just a great communication
(33:44):
vehicle and something that everyweek we could just be looking
at.
In fact, I've had a lot of guysin group that they'll put it on
their wall or their mirror,just like every day, looking
okay, here's my plan.
And they'll say, if I stick tothe plan, I do really well, but
it's when I forget the plan,ignore the plan, like I said,
just start drifting into thingsand it's what's not.
You know, it's not porn or it'snot relapse, what's the big but
(34:05):
?
But I remember like, oh yeah,when I'm just scrolling social
media I'm moving towards my old,unhealthy pattern and I need to
keep that in front of me.
So I keep making wise choices,even in those really small areas
.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Another way to say that would be forgetting
priorities.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Starting to go down the faster scale.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Another tool that's on our website.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
So many good tools, can you share a success story or
two of how a recovery actionplan has been really helpful and
accomplish the purpose?
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Yeah, I think about one of the guys that I was in an
early group with who had comeup with a very unique logical
consequence and I've shared thisin other places, but they
recognized as a couple that whenhe had to share about a relapse
, it made his wife feeluncomfortable, icky, confined.
She just didn't like how itmade her feel.
And so they were like, beingcreative, well, what, what makes
(34:59):
you feel that way?
And he has kind of aclaustrophobia thing.
And so he said, if I have tocrawl under our house because
they have pipes down there thatoccasionally need some kind of
work or maintenance, I feelconfined, icky, gross, hate it.
And they're like okay, if yourelapse, you have to spend an
hour under the house, you know,working on those projects.
And you know, as it happened, acouple months later he had a
(35:23):
relapse, had to be honest withher and I was part of the plan
that he had called me andchecked in and he went under the
house and did that work and hewas like it.
He said I knew I would hate it,but there was something
powerful about telling myselfyou know, the reason you're
doing this is because of thechoice you made to look at
pornography and he said the waythat just kind of took my
(35:43):
awareness of this matters.
There's something I'm doing andI don't ever.
You know, it took it just to say, well, I'm never going to do it
again, to like, I really don'twant to have to be back here
because this is as unpleasantfor me as maybe what my wife is
experiencing, obviously in avery, very different way, and
and you know, for him it wasjust one hour, was a part of
that lesson.
(36:04):
So that's that's something Ifeel is really helpful to see
that on our recovery action plan, most of these logical
consequences we have can beaccomplished in a relatively
short time period.
But if it creates lastingchange, isn't it worth it, you
know?
Or if in a, if in a day or two,we can experience even a level
of the discomfort and pain thatmaybe our spouse feels from the
(36:27):
broken trust, wouldn't that be agood thing if it creates
lasting health for years andyears in your relationship?
And so it's.
It's kind of choosing thatshort term pain for the long
term gain.
You're not to be pithy withthat, but I think we all see it
was good when we make thosechoices.
If it creates lasting change,it's worth it.
And I yeah, I shared a littlebit of my own story.
(36:47):
There was a relapse a couple ofyears in and it was.
I had that reaction that Ishared like, well, I do, I
really have to do this.
It's, you know, it's been somany years, and it was like no,
you know, having to sleep on thefloor for several nights like,
okay, this is real and I don'tlike this.
And it was a way of openingthat conversation.
And here's the other thing I'dsay I think it really empowered
(37:10):
my wife to feel like she had avoice in it, because that was
something she had put on therecovery action plan, like I
want you to sleep on the floor.
And when I did that and I didit willingly, if not with a bad
attitude she was like, oh, youknow, there I have some role to
play here, that I'm not just avictim of his choices, that I
can see ways that we maybe couldwork on this together.
(37:31):
And so it actually, in the longrun, was was helpful for us,
because it brought her more intothe process in a way that you
know she never had been in thepast.
In the past it was just I wouldpurge and part of my purge was
confessed to her blog.
Get it all out there.
I feel better, she feelsterrible and we just kind of
moved on and and to have ithappen in a way that wasn't more
the same was really reallyhelpful in our marriage.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Yeah, and I've heard stories like that too, where the
betrayed partner feels moreagency, feels not like relapses
ever comfortable or okay orjustifiable.
But it's like you know, I'veseen some betrayed partners and
if anyone who is listening is abetrayed partner, this is not
necessarily normal, but this isa possibility where it's just
(38:14):
like, okay, you relapsed, weknow what to do.
Work the plan, you know.
And it's not a dismissive thing, it's something where it's like
look, we've put this in place,we know that this works and so
let's work this plan.
And then, once I've workedthrough that plan to start
rebuilding trust and safety,then we have conversations on
why it happened.
And again, this is somethingthat would help encourage both
the addict and the betrayedpartner to be in groups, to be
(38:37):
in an environment where you areworking through what you're
going through.
Why did you relapse?
How is this betrayal making youfeel?
How can you process that?
So I think it's important toalso be connected to community,
as, like this is not a tool todo by yourself.
Period, these tools that we'retalking about are things done
best in community.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Hey man, Pure Desire has groups for men and women on
both sides of the struggle.
I will also put links for it inthe show notes.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
We appreciate it.
Yeah, we do.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
You're welcome.
Thank you for providing so manyfree resources and making
healing more possible foreveryone.
Nick and Trevor, what is yourfavorite thing about recovery?
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Oh gosh, I saw your questions this morning and I was
just like this question sucksbecause there's just like.
There are days where I'm like,I don't like, like there's
nothing favorite about recovery.
But I think just and I'mleading a group of young guys,
all 20 somethings right now, andI know in this context I'm
seeing a lot of it more but Ithink, whether it's in myself or
(39:46):
with other people, seeing thosemoments of self-discovery,
those like aha moments wherelight bulb goes, where something
connects and clicks like, oh, Ihad no idea that the reason why
I react this way or I go tothese behaviors is because of my
relationship with my mom, orbecause when I was a kid, my
parents got divorced, or becauseI, you know, for me, like
(40:06):
whenever I feel stupid or I feeldumb, like that's a huge
trigger and I can point back tomoments in my life that I've
seen those.
So when I make thoseconnections, I can be like, okay
, all right, remember likeyou're okay, you're safe, you
are cared for.
Some of the things like and I'verecently done this where I had
(40:28):
a coach tell me to find apicture of myself, and the coach
was like look at that pictureof that innocent, that sweet,
that very valued and cared forkid and remember that's who you
are.
And so for me, what was helpfulis like being able to remember
those moments, and so I likebeing able to I mean, we've
(40:49):
talked about it with you beforelike the re-parenting stuff, you
know your inner child, but whenself-discovery happens, there's
a lot more awareness, and forme, when I have those moments or
I see those moments happen inother people, shame the level of
it just drops.
Like you become, you come toaccept yourself more and
understand how valued and lovedyou are by the Lord and by other
people.
(41:09):
And so when I see that stuff,man, that's like this is why I
do what I do, this is why I loveleading groups and this is how
I feel cared for from the Lordwhen those moments happen in my
story too.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Let's go.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
Yeah, I think my favorite part of recovery is
just getting to meet you, drew.
These kinds of conversationswouldn't happen unless we were
all in some kind of recovery andhaving community with people
that get it, that get your story, that you feel like I can talk
about just about anything, andthey can relate and be like yeah
, I understand what you'resaying in areas of our life that
(41:41):
with the average person, like,well, I'm not going there, but
in recovery, as you meet peopleon the journeys, you do group
with them as you get to, youknow, behind each other's
podcast there's just arelationship connection of like
man, this is real and this feelslike what relationships are
supposed to be like in all ofour walk of life.
And yet we're not currentlyexperiencing that, I think, in
many places.
So I do love the relationships,the community.
(42:03):
I would echo what Trevor saidtoo, that the way that in my own
life it just feels like it'sall connected, because I think
when we're, when we're juststruggling with pornography on
our own, we're trying to battleit, we're in the binge purge
cycle, we kind of see this as aseparate part of our life, like,
yeah, over here I have this oneproblem, but then my real life
is over here.
And then what we find out is inthis journey is like oh
(42:24):
actually, no, it's all connectedmy family of origin stuff, my
trauma story, the voices Ilistened to where did those come
from?
What's God trying to say?
Who did he make me to be?
It's all wrapped up even inthat behavior and what led to it
.
And when you start to see allthose connections and there's
all these kind of aha momentsalong the way, it's like holy
cow, I never thought of it thatway and they still happen.
(42:44):
You know, we're I'm 13 yearsinto this journey of recovery
and we still will do a podcastwith someone and they'll say
something in a new way.
And it's like, well, I've neverthought of my story through
that lens, like that, wow,that's really insightful.
And those moments like, well,that's really cool.
It's cool the way that ourstory connects and then we can
use that story to connect withothers and really enjoy those
(43:04):
relationships.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Yeah, amen, guys.
Thank you so much, and if youwould like to hang out with Nick
and Trevor and some otherpeople in recovery who get it,
that's right.
Go to the Pure Desire Summit.
It's happening one week afterthe husband material retreat, so
you could even make a WestCoast trip out of it, as a
couple of people have done.
Yeah, that's right.
(43:26):
Go to the Pure Desire Summit,get more relational.
This is our whole life and Godis doing something amazing.
Yeah, and recovery action plancan be a part of that.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Yep, okay.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
So don't forget to go down to the show notes for a
motherload of awesome freeresources and tools.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
And always remember you are God's beloved Son and
you he is well pleased.
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