July 28, 2025 • 33 mins
How does your story shape your sexual arousal template? Therapist Rick Manabat shares eye-opening examples of how specific sexual fantasies and porn preferences are subconsciously shaped by our stories. This is truly mind-blowing!
Rick Manabat is the owner and founder of Pneuma Therapeutic Services, with locations in Chicago and Colorado Springs. He has a Master's in Clinical Mental Health Counseling from Trinity International University. Rick is a Certified Sex Addiction Therapist (CSAT) who is also trained in EMDR. He has been married to his best friend for almost 13 years, and they have three children.
Learn more and connect with Rick at pneumachicago.com/rick-manabat
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey, my name is Drew Boa.
I'm the founder of HusbandMaterial.
(00:22):
Thanks for listening to myinterview with Rick Manabat.
If you've ever been curiousabout the story behind your
sexual fantasies or your sexualarousal template, today you are
going to hear some reallyinsightful, mind-blowing
examples of how our sexualsurface symptoms and the things
(00:43):
we're attracted to in porn areactually not about the porn.
They go much deeper.
With surprising specificity andparticularity, rick is going to
share personally and vulnerably, from his own story and the
stories of many clients thathe's worked with, and what it
looks like to not just deal withthe behavior of addiction.
(01:04):
Like to not just deal with thebehavior of addiction but truly
accessing the deeper needs anddesires and longings that are
driving us.
Enjoy the episode.
Today we get to hear from RickManabat, who's a licensed
professional counselor here inColorado Springs and he also has
an office in Chicago.
Rick is a certified sexaddiction therapist and he is
the founder of Pneuma Counseling.
(01:24):
Welcome, rick, thank you, thankyou for having me.
You're welcome, Rick.
Why are you passionate aboutthis work?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
It's part of my own story, I would say I am the
child of a sex addict.
My dad, I would say till hisdying day, was still in his
addiction.
His dying day was still in hisaddiction.
My dad passed away in 2013 andI found out he was still
sleeping with prostitutes at hislike into his like seventies
(01:53):
and eighties, which was amazing.
I could not believe that.
You know, I'm the child of asex addict and so he exposed me
to pornography very early.
I was born in the seventies andso in the 70s, you know, we
didn't have the internet, butthey had other things, and so my
dad had a ton of magazines.
When my parents were married,he would have things out, but my
(02:18):
mom was always on him like heyget, don't get that out of the,
you know, don't leave that out.
And so he had it hidden.
But then when they divorced,which was like around four, four
or five years old, he lived inan apartment and he didn't hide
it, it was out in the open, andso I was exposed to pornography
(02:41):
probably, I'd say around maybeseven and so he would leave
magazines out, and theneventually, video came out back
in the day it was beta max, andthen VHS came out, and so I
would go to his apartment and Iwould go into the kitchen
cabinet where I would need abowl for cereal, and right next
(03:01):
to the bowls were all his porn.
In addition to him exposing meto porn, he molested me as a kid
.
He would basically masturbateme.
Looking back at my childhood, Iremember feeling like I was
very sexual.
But now that I'm at this stagein my life, I look back at that
(03:21):
and I know that he awakened mysexuality way too early, and so
that was the beginning of myjourney the other part of it, I
would say.
I got married very early, atthe age of 23.
After two years of marriage, mywife at the time told me that
she had cheated on me, and wetried to keep that marriage
(03:45):
together for a little while, butafter some time it just did not
.
It did not stay together, andat that point in my life I was a
.
I was a Christian, but becauseof the divorce I was so angry at
God and I was just like I'mdone with you, I'm, I don
anymore.
And what I did instead was Isaid yes to anything.
(04:08):
I said I'm going to do whateverI want to do I said yes to
anything my flesh wanted.
I said yes to a lot of sex.
I got into porn.
I watched porn probably everyday, if not three times a day.
I said yes to drugs and I didthat for two years and during
that time, looking back, thatreally hooked in the addiction
(04:33):
to this stuff.
And so why am I passionateabout it?
Because, one, I know it veryfamiliarly, I'm very familiar
with it.
And two, I know how hard it isto stop, and my heart is just
for, for those guys who strugglewith this, and because I know
that struggle, I know itpersonally, and so that's what
(04:55):
brought me to this, to thiscareer and to this certification
at CSAT.
I want to, I want to work withthese guys and I've worked with
women too, but most of myclients are men and I want them
to experience the freedom of nothaving to do this anymore.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
I just want to pause and say thank you for your
vulnerability.
Yeah, yeah, and it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Not only that you survived, but that you've
learned how to thrive, and youknow how hard it is.
I hear the compassion in yourvoice.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Yeah, it's hard work, no doubt, but there is, I would
say, there is hope.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
And one of the things that we have found helps the
most with getting deeper,lasting freedom from porn and
other types of addictivebehavior is really knowing your
story.
If somebody hears that and theythink my story, what's that?
(05:59):
How would you explain it?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, you know, in my training as a CSAT I remember
it was in the first module Amodule is a block of days where
we get trained and a module isusually like three to four days.
And I remember in the firstmodule in our training that they
said to us they said whensomeone comes to you and they're
(06:22):
walking in your office andthey're struggling with a sex
addiction or unwanted sexualbehavior, that person is acting
out a story in their behavior.
And it's going to be your jobas the therapist to help uncover
the story and help the personto stop acting out the story and
(06:44):
start talking about the story,start working on the story.
In my training they gave us afew things.
They would say things like youknow, to help uncover the story,
you want to understand theperson's arousal template.
That's the term they use.
So what is the thing that turnsa person on?
Because that could have adirect correlation to the story.
(07:05):
That's what they gave us.
But then this guy came along youguys are all familiar with and
your audience is familiar with,named Jay Stringer, and he wrote
a book about this and I feel hebroke it wide open and so after
kind of encountering his stuff.
I really took that and ran.
(07:27):
Basically there's a fewexamples that come to mind for
me that really describe howstory is connected to this
behavior.
This was not a client of mine.
I was part of a group of CSATsand sometimes they would bring
cases to our call and this onecolleague of mine brought a case
(07:48):
and and he he said he got thisnew guy.
His behavior had to have threecomponents to it.
He said he would masturbate, hewould smoke a cigarette and
then he would have to take adump and all three had to be in
place.
So he, you know, my colleaguebrings us to our session and
(08:10):
we're all like scratch our heads, like what in the world is this
?
Well after this guy worked withmy colleague for a while, what
he uncovered was when thisclient was younger, he attended
some sort of boarding school,and in the boarding school he
would maybe get in trouble, andthen what they would do to
(08:33):
punish him was they would makehim eat his own feces Horrible,
right.
And so what this client wasdoing, he was recreating his own
trauma.
I mean, think about it.
He would take a dump there'sthe feces.
He would stick something in hismouth the cigarette but instead
(08:54):
of pain and trauma he wastrying to bring pleasure out of
it by masturbating.
That was the story he wasacting out.
And so once we uncovered that,I guess my colleague that's
where he focused the work andfocused on that.
That will impede the success ofsomeone beating a sex addiction
(09:15):
.
The four things, in noparticular order, would be not
enough structure, unresolvedtrauma, still keeping secrets
and not having a good first step, which is the 12th step of
(09:38):
admitting you have a problem.
And so this guy's trauma wasthe thing that was getting in
the way, so that needed to beresolved.
Another example of story wouldbe a client that I had.
This was a client I had like anumber of years ago he came in
and I just started getting toknow him and I just said, hey,
(09:59):
how did you discover porn?
And he said, oh, some friendsof mine told me about a website
and he came home, typed it inand he said, instantly hooked.
He was just like what is thisLike?
It was like a whole new worldto him.
He said this, though.
He said eventually I gravitatedtowards something specific
(10:19):
within that world and I said, oh, what is that?
One rule of thumb in this workis that everything has meaning.
Nothing is just.
You know, when a guy says, oh,I just like watching boobies.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Right, it's not about the boobies.
There's a symbolic significancehere.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
There's always symbolism and meaning in
something.
So he said, when he said Igravitated towards something, my
ears perked up.
I said what is that?
And he said, oh, webcams.
And so, in my ignorance, I saidoh, you like watching people
have sex live?
He's like no, no, no, no, noguy.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Again meaning.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
So immediately I'm becoming very curious about this
and I said so what is it?
What is it about that?
He's like oh man, I lovewatching a woman pleasure
herself.
I said okay, and he said butthen he said this but what
really turns me on, he's likeyou'll be in a room, a chat room
, and she'll pick you and thenyou get to tell her what to do.
(11:24):
He's like that's the best.
And and I'm listening to himshare this and and and, for
whatever reason.
In my curiosity, I asked him.
I said hey, where in your storyhave you felt like a burden?
And he looked at me and his eyesgot really big and he said I've
(11:44):
always felt like a burden.
And he looked at me and hiseyes got really big and he said
I've always felt like a burden.
I said, tell me.
He said, well, I was adopted.
I was like, okay, and he said,you know, but I resolved it.
He's like I met my biologicalmother.
I found out that she was a drugaddict, I found out that she
was a prostitute, and he saidyou know, I know that her giving
(12:07):
me up for adoption was a veryloving thing to do.
And I said, okay.
He said, but the home that Igrew up in and the family that
raised me, you know, from beingmaybe he was a crack baby, I
don't remember, but he's likeyou know, I had a lot of
problems.
I had a learning disability, Ihad all these issues.
And he said my family would betaking me to this specialist and
(12:31):
taking me to this doctor and Ihad to go to this appointment.
I had to go to this you knowworkshop and learn this thing.
And he's like I've always feltlike a burden to them.
And so I said to him I said,you know, I think this is what's
going on.
I go you're trying to fix thisfeeling you have about yourself
of being a burden.
(12:52):
I go think about it.
When you are able to tell thatwoman on the other end of the
computer what to do, is sheburdened by you?
No, she's pleasured by you andthat feels so amazing to you.
And at that point he was justlike his, his like head probably
(13:12):
exploded and and and drew.
That's where we worked, that'swhere we focused all our work
and as we would resolve that andthat would start to change the
need to seek that out from otherwomen on the internet.
It wasn't it wasn't necessaryanymore, and so that's what I'm
(13:33):
talking about.
When it comes to story, likeeveryone has a story In my world
, there's a term we use calledtrauma reenactment.
It's like we're almostreenacting our own story in our
behavior and trying to fix it orresolve it.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
So just focusing on the sexual surface symptoms is a
losing battle, like we got toget underneath those surface
level attractions and urges tothe deeper stories.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
When we try to uncover story, we're looking at
a few things.
If a guy's coming in for porn,I want to know what kind of porn
he's into.
What is it?
What's the thing?
Everyone looks for something.
They're all looking forsomething.
Sometimes you can go about itthrough their fantasy, and it
doesn't even need to be sexual.
I had a client once and itdoesn't even need to be sexual.
(14:26):
I had a client once.
I asked him.
I said what's your fantasy?
He said playing in a footballgame and throwing the winning
touchdown, and then everyonelike lifting him up and parading
him around, and this guy had avery low view of himself.
He was the youngest of likefour.
He was the only boy.
His sisters used to shame himand put him down.
(14:51):
He always walked around with alot of guilt, and so he wanted
to be celebrated, and his actingout depicted that too, and so
that that was the story he keptplaying out.
He just wants to be celebrated,wants to be celebrated, and so,
yeah, you can approach this inmany different angles, but, but
the main ones would be throughlike, like, if someone's into
porn, what?
You can approach this in manydifferent angles, but, but the
main ones would be through, like, like, if someone's into porn,
what are you into?
(15:11):
And if not, ask, ask thefantasy.
I mean I have other examples offantasy.
So I had a guy and his fantasywas, he said like he would come
home from work, maybe open uphis apartment door and soon as
he walks in, a woman or thewoman is on her knees naked,
(15:31):
basically saying, take me, hesaid.
Or I walk in, close the door,put my keys on the little table
here, walk into my bedroom andshe's naked on the bed on all
fours and you know, her butt'sfacing me and she's facing,
she's turned facing me and she'slike take me.
And when I heard that, I heardsubmission.
(15:53):
And so when I went looking intothis guy's story, what we
uncovered is he had a father.
His father was just, I mean, hewas a Ivy League grad.
He played, I think, in aprofessional sport, I don't know
if it was baseball or football.
Nothing this client could dowas ever good enough, and there
(16:13):
was this deep control that hisdad had on him and so he never
felt control.
So he would seek out submissionfrom women to feel like he had
control.
And so again there's the storyplaying it out again time and
time again.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
And each one is different.
Each one is unique.
Yes, we can't just assume thata certain fantasy has a certain
cause.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
No, no, no.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I love the word you used curiosity.
I know for many of us,curiosity has felt like the
problem.
That's what gets me intotrouble.
But You're talking about it adifferent way.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yeah, you know, when you approach this struggle of
sex addiction with story andcuriosity, to me it takes away
from the pathology of it if Icould use a counseling term,
pathology of it if I could use acounseling term.
Or it takes away from thesinfulness of it Because it
(17:13):
starts to all make sense.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Sometimes guys feel like this is not just sin, it's
the worst sin in the entireworld and I'm the worst person
in the entire world.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
I've heard that many a time.
You know what my answer to thatis.
I usually have two answers.
If we're talking sin, if youlook at the Gospels, jesus
encountered many people.
When he would encounter aPharisee, he talked to him a
certain way.
He was very harsh.
I mean, I always like to say heripped him a new one.
(17:45):
He just despised how they wouldhold these rules over people
and make people feel sooppressed by them.
But when he encountered someonewho had been caught in adultery
or someone who had fivehusbands and the one they're
with now was not their husbandhe didn't talk to him that way.
(18:07):
He spoke truth, go call yourhusband.
But he also was very gracious.
And sometimes I think guysincluding women in this too when
we fall into sexual brokenness,we respond to ourselves like as
if we were Pharisees, and weshould be responding to
(18:34):
ourselves like the woman at thewell or the woman caught in
adultery.
You know the other thing I saytoo.
I love this verse.
I think it's in Romans and itsays it is the kindness of God
that leads us to repentance, thekindness not hitting you over
the head and saying you horriblesinner.
Hitting you over the head andsaying you horrible sinner, why
won't you stop this?
So when we fail, god is kind tous to make us stop and turn
(18:54):
around.
He's not hitting us over thehead, and why don't we do that?
And so when I hear a guy kindof hard with himself, I'm
immediately correcting that andI'm like no, that's not going to
change you.
Shaming yourself never changesbehavior.
I'm sorry, it's never worked.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
It just fuels the fire of feeling the need to act
out again.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah Right, it perpetuates the message that I'm
a piece of doodoo and you know,doodoo does as doodoo does.
Yeah.
So I have this client who camein and he had gotten caught by
his wife and when he came in,you know, I started doing my
thing and just asking them aboutwhat's going on and what's your
(19:36):
addiction.
And so he was into porn, but hewas also into other stuff.
And then he said he says thathe had a kink, that's what he
called it and he said he wasvery ashamed of it.
But before he could even startto talk about it, he's like this
.
I feel so shameful about it andso embarrassed about this.
(19:57):
I immediately wanted to be verygentle.
I said okay.
I said can you just tell mewhat it is?
And so he said that what he'sinto is porn or sexual kind of
acting out that involvesbreastfeeding and releasing, you
know, ejaculation inside of awoman.
Again, I became curious.
(20:19):
I said what is it about that?
I said what does it mean?
What does it represent to youthat you know that, you see this
, you know a woman lactating andyou able to suck on her breast,
so to speak.
And he said well to me.
He said to me, it's the, it'sthe most intimate, it's like the
most intimate thing to ever do.
(20:40):
And I said okay, and so, as Igot to know this guy, what he
shared with me about his storyis he grew up in a home.
He came, his parents weremarried but then eventually got
divorced and he had a mother whowhat he refers to as like the
Catholic guilt, and she wouldjust there's a term that he grew
(21:04):
up believing about himself andit was a dark soul.
You're a dark soul, so anythingthat he ever wanted was bad.
If he started to like a girl.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
It was bad.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
You're a dark soul.
That's evil, it's sinful.
And so he grew up in this home,where the one person he could
get comfort from was not safe,and so he learned to hide, like,
hide, like he would never shareanything about himself, and
when he did and tried it out, itwould become weaponized against
him.
And so he found this world ofpornography and that became his,
(21:40):
his escape.
And and then he found thisworld of like, meeting people
online who are also into, youknow, breasts and lactating and
all that stuff.
And then, when he got caught,it all came out and he even
shared this with his wife.
As we began to work I wanted towork on this trauma, you know he
(22:02):
started to share this kink ofhis with his wife, and what
happened was his wife was likehey, do you want to try this,
this kink of his with his wife.
And what happened was his wifewas like, hey, do you want to
try this with me?
And when she was open to it, hewas like blown away.
He's like, oh my gosh, I can't.
I can't believe this.
Like, this is amazing.
And so he started to do thatwith her, like he would suck on
her breasts, like like he, likehe would.
(22:24):
How his acting out was Again asI worked with him the hiding
really was like he never feltknown, never felt understood,
never felt seen.
And so I, we started working onthat Like how could you start to
do this with your wife to bemore known, to be more seen?
And so he just started sharingmore things about himself, not
(22:47):
nothing sexual or, but just like.
This is what I like and this iswhat I don't like, and this,
these are my dreams and theseare these are my disappointments
.
And and the more he did that,his wife responded very nicely
about it.
She didn't like weaponize itagainst him, she didn't shame
him, she didn't say he was adark soul.
And and what happened?
One day he came into sessionand he said that his wife
(23:13):
checked in with him.
She's like hey, you haven'tasked me to suck on my breasts,
what's going on?
And he said I don't know it'slike it wasn't necessary anymore
.
So the kink that he thought wasa kink was really about wanting
to be known.
(23:34):
And as he started to feel known, he started to feel really
close to his wife, he started tofeel more connected to her and
the need for the kink started togo away.
It wasn't like needed anymore.
The kink started to go away.
It wasn't like needed anymore.
And so again back to this ideaof story.
The more you start to work onyour story, the things that you
(23:55):
thought were so important likeyour sex addiction and, in this
guy's case, his kink it wasn'tlike a thing anymore to him
because he was feeling what hereally needed to feel was to
feel loved and connected andseen and understood.
And oh my gosh, I mean it'sbeen amazing for this guy and so
(24:16):
I love this guy's story.
I mean it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
So each of us have those deeper longings and needs,
but in the moment of beingtempted, we're not thinking
about that.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yeah, we're thinking that this is the most important
thing and this is what I need.
And really, if you dig deeper,it's not really that I always
tell guys.
You know, when it comes to likea sex addiction, think of it
like a tree.
You know, we see the branches,we see the leaves.
That's the porn, that's themasturbation, that's the kink.
But the root of the tree, whichwe don't see, is something
(24:53):
totally different and that'swhat we got to.
The root of his tree was reallydeep down.
He wanted to feel known, he waslooking for intimacy and he
found breasts and lactation, asthat's the most intimate thing.
But what he didn't realize isit's no, it's feeling known.
I always use the illustrationof the garden.
(25:14):
In the garden, Adam and Eve, itsays, were naked and unashamed
and I believe they wereliterally naked.
But I also believe there was aspiritual nakedness and the
spiritual nakedness was like yousee me, you see everything and
I don't feel bad what you see.
And Eve felt the same.
(25:35):
She's like my husband, sees metotally, completely, and I don't
feel ashamed of who I am.
And that was the intimacy thatthey shared in the garden.
And then, you know, sin ruinedeverything.
And now we have you know, sinruined everything and and now we
have, you know, sex addiction.
But really we're all trying tomeant to get back to the garden
of, of being completely seen forwho we are, all our faults, all
(26:00):
our, all our dreams, all ournightmares and and still be
accepted without shame and andwhen we are.
We don't need porn anymore.
We don't need sex addiction.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
We can outgrow it.
Yeah, we can Totally Thoughtabout a deeper internal
spiritual, emotional nakedness.
That reminds me of the phraseinto me see, oh, into me see,
okay.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Okay, that's a first for me.
I never heard that.
Can I steal that yeah?
Speaker 1 (26:31):
you can.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Okay, that's exactly what it is.
That's what intimacy is.
You know, you ever go on aretreat and they have you fall
backwards and people catch you.
It's like that.
It's like you're fallingbackwards and you're hoping that
this person is going to catchyou and they do, and then you're
like, oh, that felt so good.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Great question.
So what your listeners may notknow about me is I was born
missing my right arm, being bornwith one arm.
The nice thing about it is whenyou learn how to do everything
very early on.
So I learned how to ride a bikewith one arm.
I learned how to play catchwith one arm.
(27:18):
I like to joke and say Ilearned how to pick my nose with
one arm.
But the challenge I grew upwith was not that I couldn't do
anything, because, interestinglyenough, I was very gifted
athletically and, funny enough,I played every sport that
required two arms.
You know, you think I wouldhave played soccer.
(27:40):
Nope, did not play soccer.
I played baseball, I playedfootball, I played basketball, I
played floor hockey Everythingthat requires two arms.
I played that sport and I wasactually really good.
The challenge I faced growingup was people's assumption about
me, and so you know, whenpeople meet you, drew, they
(28:01):
typically might not assume toomuch about you.
You know, they see you they seeyou're tall, they might assume
oh, he must've played basketball.
You know that'd be it for me.
They would assume Rick can't dothis, and so that was like a
battle I grew up facing I would.
It's like I always had to provemyself.
I have stories of like peoplejust assuming I couldn't do
(28:22):
something, and so that playedout in my addiction and this is
not necessarily in my addiction,but you know, when it came to
women, I typically would pursuethe prettiest girl in the room
and I would get them.
I would get the prettiest girlin the room, but the prettiest
girl in the room wasn't alwaysthe best girl in the room and I
(28:43):
would get them.
I would get the prettiest girlin the room, but the prettiest
girl in the room wasn't alwaysthe best girl in the room.
She, she was not the greatestyou know, not the nicest.
But in my mind I thought oh, ifRick is with this guy, this girl
then what does that say abouthim?
And so I was acting out thisinsecurity of like having to
prove myself.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
It was like I can do this yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Yeah, like cause, if Rick can get a pretty girl, you
can, you can do anything.
You know, when I look back atthat I kind of shake my head and
be like, oh my gosh, but but itmakes sense.
And so when I got into therapy,I uncovered this about myself.
I uncovered that I believe thatI'm inadequate and so my, my
addiction reflects inadequacy.
(29:24):
If we're talking arousaltemplate, like I mentioned
earlier, I would look for pornwith the prettiest girl in the
porn video.
You know she had to have a very, very pretty face.
And so again, that was.
I was acting out this insecurityof feeling inadequate, because
if I could get the prettiestgirl, what would that say about
me?
When I started to uncover that,I realized that about myself
(29:48):
and then I became aware of it,like, how does it play out?
And so one thing I would say isthe transition from the winter
to the summer was always a hardthing for me, because one in the
winter you're wearing a longsleeve shirt, so my arm was not
showing.
People sometimes wouldn't evenrealize it.
They're like, oh my gosh,you're missing your arm.
(30:09):
They wouldn't even realize it.
But then when the summer comes,we change our clothing from
long sleeve to short sleeve.
So there's my arm in all itsglory standing out to the world,
and that would be like reallyit'd be kind of hard for me.
But as I started to work onmyself, I was just at this point
of like you know what, I'm notgoing to care anymore.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
I'm not going to care .
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Like I can't do anything about it.
This is it.
I'm going to have to acceptthis, and so I would just not
care about a short sleeve shirtand and and what I noticed when
that happened?
I actually found myself beingable to be myself more with
people.
I wasn't like performing, Iwasn't trying to be something I
(30:54):
wasn't, I would just actually bemyself.
And actually when I was myself,people actually liked it Again.
I started to feel connected.
My friendships changed.
I mean, I used to have a groupof guys that I was very close
with at least I thought I wasclose with but none of these
guys were loyal.
And as I started to realizethese things about myself, I
(31:16):
became a little more selectivein who my friends were.
And the friends I have nowthey're the most loyal guys.
They're so loyal and I getemotional even thinking about it
, like I just have these reallygood guy friends.
And so again back to story.
That was my story inadequacy,and it played out in my stuff.
And now you know, I would sayeven in my marriage.
(31:39):
I would say my marriage is oneof the healthiest relationships
I've ever been in, like it'sjust so good and I thank God for
it.
My wife is amazing and Iwouldn't have noticed her if I
hadn't done this work because Iwould have still been looking
for that.
You know, prettiest girl in theroom syndrome that I had, I
(32:00):
would say she is the prettiestgirl in the room syndrome that I
had.
I would say she is theprettiest girl in my room now,
like she might not be theprettiest girl in the room, but
she's the prettiest girl in myroom and that's the room that
matters, and so I want to say toyour listeners that there is
hope.
You have to do the work, youhave to know what your stuff is.
And again my stuff was.
(32:21):
I felt inadequate, and you haveto name that.
That's so important to name it,because once you name it, then
you can see it.
You see it play out in yourrelationships, you see it play
out in work, you see it play outall over the place, and then
once you see, it, then you canchange it.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
That's so empowering.
Rick.
What is your favorite thingabout freedom from porn?
Speaker 2 (32:43):
There's a number of things that come to mind.
If I could say two just havingthe clear conscience, like you
just feel so freed and you'renot carrying around the shame
and the guilt which then, as aconsequence of that is you're
connected in a relationshipbecause you're not walking
around with the guilt, everyoneyou know, I would probably
(33:05):
guarantee after you act out, youdon't want to be around anyone,
you want to isolate, you want,you want to stay away from
people and freedom, you want tobe around people and I love
people.
So that's, that's the best.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
It's the best, especially when you don't have
to prove yourself Right.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Oh my gosh, you, you accept yourself.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Amen, yeah, amen.
That's awesome, rick, thank youso much for being with us.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
It's been an honor and a pleasure.
I'm very thankful for being onyour on your show.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
I thankful for being on your show.
I'm so glad we did this.
Guys, if you want to connectwith Rick or learn more about
his practice, you can go down tothe links in the show notes and
always remember you are God'sbeloved son In you.
He is well-pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey, my name is Drew Boa.
I'm the founder of HusbandMaterial.
(00:22):
Thanks for listening to myinterview with Rick Manabat.
If you've ever been curiousabout the story behind your
sexual fantasies or your sexualarousal template, today you are
going to hear some reallyinsightful, mind-blowing
examples of how our sexualsurface symptoms and the things
(00:43):
we're attracted to in porn areactually not about the porn.
They go much deeper.
With surprising specificity andparticularity, rick is going to
share personally and vulnerably, from his own story and the
stories of many clients thathe's worked with, and what it
looks like to not just deal withthe behavior of addiction.
(01:04):
Like to not just deal with thebehavior of addiction but truly
accessing the deeper needs anddesires and longings that are
driving us.
Enjoy the episode.
Today we get to hear from RickManabat, who's a licensed
professional counselor here inColorado Springs and he also has
an office in Chicago.
Rick is a certified sexaddiction therapist and he is
the founder of Pneuma Counseling.
(01:24):
Welcome, rick, thank you, thankyou for having me.
You're welcome, Rick.
Why are you passionate aboutthis work?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
It's part of my own story, I would say I am the
child of a sex addict.
My dad, I would say till hisdying day, was still in his
addiction.
His dying day was still in hisaddiction.
My dad passed away in 2013 andI found out he was still
sleeping with prostitutes at hislike into his like seventies
(01:53):
and eighties, which was amazing.
I could not believe that.
You know, I'm the child of asex addict and so he exposed me
to pornography very early.
I was born in the seventies andso in the 70s, you know, we
didn't have the internet, butthey had other things, and so my
dad had a ton of magazines.
When my parents were married,he would have things out, but my
(02:18):
mom was always on him like heyget, don't get that out of the,
you know, don't leave that out.
And so he had it hidden.
But then when they divorced,which was like around four, four
or five years old, he lived inan apartment and he didn't hide
it, it was out in the open, andso I was exposed to pornography
(02:41):
probably, I'd say around maybeseven and so he would leave
magazines out, and theneventually, video came out back
in the day it was beta max, andthen VHS came out, and so I
would go to his apartment and Iwould go into the kitchen
cabinet where I would need abowl for cereal, and right next
(03:01):
to the bowls were all his porn.
In addition to him exposing meto porn, he molested me as a kid
.
He would basically masturbateme.
Looking back at my childhood, Iremember feeling like I was
very sexual.
But now that I'm at this stagein my life, I look back at that
(03:21):
and I know that he awakened mysexuality way too early, and so
that was the beginning of myjourney the other part of it, I
would say.
I got married very early, atthe age of 23.
After two years of marriage, mywife at the time told me that
she had cheated on me, and wetried to keep that marriage
(03:45):
together for a little while, butafter some time it just did not
.
It did not stay together, andat that point in my life I was a
.
I was a Christian, but becauseof the divorce I was so angry at
God and I was just like I'mdone with you, I'm, I don
anymore.
And what I did instead was Isaid yes to anything.
(04:08):
I said I'm going to do whateverI want to do I said yes to
anything my flesh wanted.
I said yes to a lot of sex.
I got into porn.
I watched porn probably everyday, if not three times a day.
I said yes to drugs and I didthat for two years and during
that time, looking back, thatreally hooked in the addiction
(04:33):
to this stuff.
And so why am I passionateabout it?
Because, one, I know it veryfamiliarly, I'm very familiar
with it.
And two, I know how hard it isto stop, and my heart is just
for, for those guys who strugglewith this, and because I know
that struggle, I know itpersonally, and so that's what
(04:55):
brought me to this, to thiscareer and to this certification
at CSAT.
I want to, I want to work withthese guys and I've worked with
women too, but most of myclients are men and I want them
to experience the freedom of nothaving to do this anymore.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
I just want to pause and say thank you for your
vulnerability.
Yeah, yeah, and it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Not only that you survived, but that you've
learned how to thrive, and youknow how hard it is.
I hear the compassion in yourvoice.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Yeah, it's hard work, no doubt, but there is, I would
say, there is hope.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
And one of the things that we have found helps the
most with getting deeper,lasting freedom from porn and
other types of addictivebehavior is really knowing your
story.
If somebody hears that and theythink my story, what's that?
(05:59):
How would you explain it?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, you know, in my training as a CSAT I remember
it was in the first module Amodule is a block of days where
we get trained and a module isusually like three to four days.
And I remember in the firstmodule in our training that they
said to us they said whensomeone comes to you and they're
(06:22):
walking in your office andthey're struggling with a sex
addiction or unwanted sexualbehavior, that person is acting
out a story in their behavior.
And it's going to be your jobas the therapist to help uncover
the story and help the personto stop acting out the story and
(06:44):
start talking about the story,start working on the story.
In my training they gave us afew things.
They would say things like youknow, to help uncover the story,
you want to understand theperson's arousal template.
That's the term they use.
So what is the thing that turnsa person on?
Because that could have adirect correlation to the story.
(07:05):
That's what they gave us.
But then this guy came along youguys are all familiar with and
your audience is familiar with,named Jay Stringer, and he wrote
a book about this and I feel hebroke it wide open and so after
kind of encountering his stuff.
I really took that and ran.
(07:27):
Basically there's a fewexamples that come to mind for
me that really describe howstory is connected to this
behavior.
This was not a client of mine.
I was part of a group of CSATsand sometimes they would bring
cases to our call and this onecolleague of mine brought a case
(07:48):
and and he he said he got thisnew guy.
His behavior had to have threecomponents to it.
He said he would masturbate, hewould smoke a cigarette and
then he would have to take adump and all three had to be in
place.
So he, you know, my colleaguebrings us to our session and
(08:10):
we're all like scratch our heads, like what in the world is this
?
Well after this guy worked withmy colleague for a while, what
he uncovered was when thisclient was younger, he attended
some sort of boarding school,and in the boarding school he
would maybe get in trouble, andthen what they would do to
(08:33):
punish him was they would makehim eat his own feces Horrible,
right.
And so what this client wasdoing, he was recreating his own
trauma.
I mean, think about it.
He would take a dump there'sthe feces.
He would stick something in hismouth the cigarette but instead
(08:54):
of pain and trauma he wastrying to bring pleasure out of
it by masturbating.
That was the story he wasacting out.
And so once we uncovered that,I guess my colleague that's
where he focused the work andfocused on that.
That will impede the success ofsomeone beating a sex addiction
(09:15):
.
The four things, in noparticular order, would be not
enough structure, unresolvedtrauma, still keeping secrets
and not having a good first step, which is the 12th step of
(09:38):
admitting you have a problem.
And so this guy's trauma wasthe thing that was getting in
the way, so that needed to beresolved.
Another example of story wouldbe a client that I had.
This was a client I had like anumber of years ago he came in
and I just started getting toknow him and I just said, hey,
(09:59):
how did you discover porn?
And he said, oh, some friendsof mine told me about a website
and he came home, typed it inand he said, instantly hooked.
He was just like what is thisLike?
It was like a whole new worldto him.
He said this, though.
He said eventually I gravitatedtowards something specific
(10:19):
within that world and I said, oh, what is that?
One rule of thumb in this workis that everything has meaning.
Nothing is just.
You know, when a guy says, oh,I just like watching boobies.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Right, it's not about the boobies.
There's a symbolic significancehere.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
There's always symbolism and meaning in
something.
So he said, when he said Igravitated towards something, my
ears perked up.
I said what is that?
And he said, oh, webcams.
And so, in my ignorance, I saidoh, you like watching people
have sex live?
He's like no, no, no, no, noguy.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Again meaning.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
So immediately I'm becoming very curious about this
and I said so what is it?
What is it about that?
He's like oh man, I lovewatching a woman pleasure
herself.
I said okay, and he said butthen he said this but what
really turns me on, he's likeyou'll be in a room, a chat room
, and she'll pick you and thenyou get to tell her what to do.
(11:24):
He's like that's the best.
And and I'm listening to himshare this and and and, for
whatever reason.
In my curiosity, I asked him.
I said hey, where in your storyhave you felt like a burden?
And he looked at me and his eyesgot really big and he said I've
(11:44):
always felt like a burden.
And he looked at me and hiseyes got really big and he said
I've always felt like a burden.
I said, tell me.
He said, well, I was adopted.
I was like, okay, and he said,you know, but I resolved it.
He's like I met my biologicalmother.
I found out that she was a drugaddict, I found out that she
was a prostitute, and he saidyou know, I know that her giving
(12:07):
me up for adoption was a veryloving thing to do.
And I said, okay.
He said, but the home that Igrew up in and the family that
raised me, you know, from beingmaybe he was a crack baby, I
don't remember, but he's likeyou know, I had a lot of
problems.
I had a learning disability, Ihad all these issues.
And he said my family would betaking me to this specialist and
(12:31):
taking me to this doctor and Ihad to go to this appointment.
I had to go to this you knowworkshop and learn this thing.
And he's like I've always feltlike a burden to them.
And so I said to him I said,you know, I think this is what's
going on.
I go you're trying to fix thisfeeling you have about yourself
of being a burden.
(12:52):
I go think about it.
When you are able to tell thatwoman on the other end of the
computer what to do, is sheburdened by you?
No, she's pleasured by you andthat feels so amazing to you.
And at that point he was justlike his, his like head probably
(13:12):
exploded and and and drew.
That's where we worked, that'swhere we focused all our work
and as we would resolve that andthat would start to change the
need to seek that out from otherwomen on the internet.
It wasn't it wasn't necessaryanymore, and so that's what I'm
(13:33):
talking about.
When it comes to story, likeeveryone has a story In my world
, there's a term we use calledtrauma reenactment.
It's like we're almostreenacting our own story in our
behavior and trying to fix it orresolve it.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
So just focusing on the sexual surface symptoms is a
losing battle, like we got toget underneath those surface
level attractions and urges tothe deeper stories.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
When we try to uncover story, we're looking at
a few things.
If a guy's coming in for porn,I want to know what kind of porn
he's into.
What is it?
What's the thing?
Everyone looks for something.
They're all looking forsomething.
Sometimes you can go about itthrough their fantasy, and it
doesn't even need to be sexual.
I had a client once and itdoesn't even need to be sexual.
(14:26):
I had a client once.
I asked him.
I said what's your fantasy?
He said playing in a footballgame and throwing the winning
touchdown, and then everyonelike lifting him up and parading
him around, and this guy had avery low view of himself.
He was the youngest of likefour.
He was the only boy.
His sisters used to shame himand put him down.
(14:51):
He always walked around with alot of guilt, and so he wanted
to be celebrated, and his actingout depicted that too, and so
that that was the story he keptplaying out.
He just wants to be celebrated,wants to be celebrated, and so,
yeah, you can approach this inmany different angles, but, but
the main ones would be throughlike, like, if someone's into
porn, what?
You can approach this in manydifferent angles, but, but the
main ones would be through, like, like, if someone's into porn,
what are you into?
(15:11):
And if not, ask, ask thefantasy.
I mean I have other examples offantasy.
So I had a guy and his fantasywas, he said like he would come
home from work, maybe open uphis apartment door and soon as
he walks in, a woman or thewoman is on her knees naked,
(15:31):
basically saying, take me, hesaid.
Or I walk in, close the door,put my keys on the little table
here, walk into my bedroom andshe's naked on the bed on all
fours and you know, her butt'sfacing me and she's facing,
she's turned facing me and she'slike take me.
And when I heard that, I heardsubmission.
(15:53):
And so when I went looking intothis guy's story, what we
uncovered is he had a father.
His father was just, I mean, hewas a Ivy League grad.
He played, I think, in aprofessional sport, I don't know
if it was baseball or football.
Nothing this client could dowas ever good enough, and there
(16:13):
was this deep control that hisdad had on him and so he never
felt control.
So he would seek out submissionfrom women to feel like he had
control.
And so again there's the storyplaying it out again time and
time again.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
And each one is different.
Each one is unique.
Yes, we can't just assume thata certain fantasy has a certain
cause.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
No, no, no.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I love the word you used curiosity.
I know for many of us,curiosity has felt like the
problem.
That's what gets me intotrouble.
But You're talking about it adifferent way.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Yeah, you know, when you approach this struggle of
sex addiction with story andcuriosity, to me it takes away
from the pathology of it if Icould use a counseling term,
pathology of it if I could use acounseling term.
Or it takes away from thesinfulness of it Because it
(17:13):
starts to all make sense.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Sometimes guys feel like this is not just sin, it's
the worst sin in the entireworld and I'm the worst person
in the entire world.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
I've heard that many a time.
You know what my answer to thatis.
I usually have two answers.
If we're talking sin, if youlook at the Gospels, jesus
encountered many people.
When he would encounter aPharisee, he talked to him a
certain way.
He was very harsh.
I mean, I always like to say heripped him a new one.
(17:45):
He just despised how they wouldhold these rules over people
and make people feel sooppressed by them.
But when he encountered someonewho had been caught in adultery
or someone who had fivehusbands and the one they're
with now was not their husbandhe didn't talk to him that way.
(18:07):
He spoke truth, go call yourhusband.
But he also was very gracious.
And sometimes I think guysincluding women in this too when
we fall into sexual brokenness,we respond to ourselves like as
if we were Pharisees, and weshould be responding to
(18:34):
ourselves like the woman at thewell or the woman caught in
adultery.
You know the other thing I saytoo.
I love this verse.
I think it's in Romans and itsays it is the kindness of God
that leads us to repentance, thekindness not hitting you over
the head and saying you horriblesinner.
Hitting you over the head andsaying you horrible sinner, why
won't you stop this?
So when we fail, god is kind tous to make us stop and turn
(18:54):
around.
He's not hitting us over thehead, and why don't we do that?
And so when I hear a guy kindof hard with himself, I'm
immediately correcting that andI'm like no, that's not going to
change you.
Shaming yourself never changesbehavior.
I'm sorry, it's never worked.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
It just fuels the fire of feeling the need to act
out again.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah Right, it perpetuates the message that I'm
a piece of doodoo and you know,doodoo does as doodoo does.
Yeah.
So I have this client who camein and he had gotten caught by
his wife and when he came in,you know, I started doing my
thing and just asking them aboutwhat's going on and what's your
(19:36):
addiction.
And so he was into porn, but hewas also into other stuff.
And then he said he says thathe had a kink, that's what he
called it and he said he wasvery ashamed of it.
But before he could even startto talk about it, he's like this
.
I feel so shameful about it andso embarrassed about this.
(19:57):
I immediately wanted to be verygentle.
I said okay.
I said can you just tell mewhat it is?
And so he said that what he'sinto is porn or sexual kind of
acting out that involvesbreastfeeding and releasing, you
know, ejaculation inside of awoman.
Again, I became curious.
(20:19):
I said what is it about that?
I said what does it mean?
What does it represent to youthat you know that, you see this
, you know a woman lactating andyou able to suck on her breast,
so to speak.
And he said well to me.
He said to me, it's the, it'sthe most intimate, it's like the
most intimate thing to ever do.
(20:40):
And I said okay, and so, as Igot to know this guy, what he
shared with me about his storyis he grew up in a home.
He came, his parents weremarried but then eventually got
divorced and he had a mother whowhat he refers to as like the
Catholic guilt, and she wouldjust there's a term that he grew
(21:04):
up believing about himself andit was a dark soul.
You're a dark soul, so anythingthat he ever wanted was bad.
If he started to like a girl.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
It was bad.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
You're a dark soul.
That's evil, it's sinful.
And so he grew up in this home,where the one person he could
get comfort from was not safe,and so he learned to hide, like,
hide, like he would never shareanything about himself, and
when he did and tried it out, itwould become weaponized against
him.
And so he found this world ofpornography and that became his,
(21:40):
his escape.
And and then he found thisworld of like, meeting people
online who are also into, youknow, breasts and lactating and
all that stuff.
And then, when he got caught,it all came out and he even
shared this with his wife.
As we began to work I wanted towork on this trauma, you know he
(22:02):
started to share this kink ofhis with his wife, and what
happened was his wife was likehey, do you want to try this,
this kink of his with his wife.
And what happened was his wifewas like, hey, do you want to
try this with me?
And when she was open to it, hewas like blown away.
He's like, oh my gosh, I can't.
I can't believe this.
Like, this is amazing.
And so he started to do thatwith her, like he would suck on
her breasts, like like he, likehe would.
(22:24):
How his acting out was Again asI worked with him the hiding
really was like he never feltknown, never felt understood,
never felt seen.
And so I, we started working onthat Like how could you start to
do this with your wife to bemore known, to be more seen?
And so he just started sharingmore things about himself, not
(22:47):
nothing sexual or, but just like.
This is what I like and this iswhat I don't like, and this,
these are my dreams and theseare these are my disappointments
.
And and the more he did that,his wife responded very nicely
about it.
She didn't like weaponize itagainst him, she didn't shame
him, she didn't say he was adark soul.
And and what happened?
One day he came into sessionand he said that his wife
(23:13):
checked in with him.
She's like hey, you haven'tasked me to suck on my breasts,
what's going on?
And he said I don't know it'slike it wasn't necessary anymore
.
So the kink that he thought wasa kink was really about wanting
to be known.
(23:34):
And as he started to feel known, he started to feel really
close to his wife, he started tofeel more connected to her and
the need for the kink started togo away.
It wasn't like needed anymore.
The kink started to go away.
It wasn't like needed anymore.
And so again back to this ideaof story.
The more you start to work onyour story, the things that you
(23:55):
thought were so important likeyour sex addiction and, in this
guy's case, his kink it wasn'tlike a thing anymore to him
because he was feeling what hereally needed to feel was to
feel loved and connected andseen and understood.
And oh my gosh, I mean it'sbeen amazing for this guy and so
(24:16):
I love this guy's story.
I mean it's amazing.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
So each of us have those deeper longings and needs,
but in the moment of beingtempted, we're not thinking
about that.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yeah, we're thinking that this is the most important
thing and this is what I need.
And really, if you dig deeper,it's not really that I always
tell guys.
You know, when it comes to likea sex addiction, think of it
like a tree.
You know, we see the branches,we see the leaves.
That's the porn, that's themasturbation, that's the kink.
But the root of the tree, whichwe don't see, is something
(24:53):
totally different and that'swhat we got to.
The root of his tree was reallydeep down.
He wanted to feel known, he waslooking for intimacy and he
found breasts and lactation, asthat's the most intimate thing.
But what he didn't realize isit's no, it's feeling known.
I always use the illustrationof the garden.
(25:14):
In the garden, Adam and Eve, itsays, were naked and unashamed
and I believe they wereliterally naked.
But I also believe there was aspiritual nakedness and the
spiritual nakedness was like yousee me, you see everything and
I don't feel bad what you see.
And Eve felt the same.
(25:35):
She's like my husband, sees metotally, completely, and I don't
feel ashamed of who I am.
And that was the intimacy thatthey shared in the garden.
And then, you know, sin ruinedeverything.
And now we have you know, sinruined everything and and now we
have, you know, sex addiction.
But really we're all trying tomeant to get back to the garden
of, of being completely seen forwho we are, all our faults, all
(26:00):
our, all our dreams, all ournightmares and and still be
accepted without shame and andwhen we are.
We don't need porn anymore.
We don't need sex addiction.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
We can outgrow it.
Yeah, we can Totally Thoughtabout a deeper internal
spiritual, emotional nakedness.
That reminds me of the phraseinto me see, oh, into me see,
okay.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Okay, that's a first for me.
I never heard that.
Can I steal that yeah?
Speaker 1 (26:31):
you can.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Okay, that's exactly what it is.
That's what intimacy is.
You know, you ever go on aretreat and they have you fall
backwards and people catch you.
It's like that.
It's like you're fallingbackwards and you're hoping that
this person is going to catchyou and they do, and then you're
like, oh, that felt so good.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Great question.
So what your listeners may notknow about me is I was born
missing my right arm, being bornwith one arm.
The nice thing about it is whenyou learn how to do everything
very early on.
So I learned how to ride a bikewith one arm.
I learned how to play catchwith one arm.
(27:18):
I like to joke and say Ilearned how to pick my nose with
one arm.
But the challenge I grew upwith was not that I couldn't do
anything, because, interestinglyenough, I was very gifted
athletically and, funny enough,I played every sport that
required two arms.
You know, you think I wouldhave played soccer.
(27:40):
Nope, did not play soccer.
I played baseball, I playedfootball, I played basketball, I
played floor hockey Everythingthat requires two arms.
I played that sport and I wasactually really good.
The challenge I faced growingup was people's assumption about
me, and so you know, whenpeople meet you, drew, they
(28:01):
typically might not assume toomuch about you.
You know, they see you they seeyou're tall, they might assume
oh, he must've played basketball.
You know that'd be it for me.
They would assume Rick can't dothis, and so that was like a
battle I grew up facing I would.
It's like I always had to provemyself.
I have stories of like peoplejust assuming I couldn't do
(28:22):
something, and so that playedout in my addiction and this is
not necessarily in my addiction,but you know, when it came to
women, I typically would pursuethe prettiest girl in the room
and I would get them.
I would get the prettiest girlin the room, but the prettiest
girl in the room wasn't alwaysthe best girl in the room and I
(28:43):
would get them.
I would get the prettiest girlin the room, but the prettiest
girl in the room wasn't alwaysthe best girl in the room.
She, she was not the greatestyou know, not the nicest.
But in my mind I thought oh, ifRick is with this guy, this girl
then what does that say abouthim?
And so I was acting out thisinsecurity of like having to
prove myself.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
It was like I can do this yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Yeah, like cause, if Rick can get a pretty girl, you
can, you can do anything.
You know, when I look back atthat I kind of shake my head and
be like, oh my gosh, but but itmakes sense.
And so when I got into therapy,I uncovered this about myself.
I uncovered that I believe thatI'm inadequate and so my, my
addiction reflects inadequacy.
(29:24):
If we're talking arousaltemplate, like I mentioned
earlier, I would look for pornwith the prettiest girl in the
porn video.
You know she had to have a very, very pretty face.
And so again, that was.
I was acting out this insecurityof feeling inadequate, because
if I could get the prettiestgirl, what would that say about
me?
When I started to uncover that,I realized that about myself
(29:48):
and then I became aware of it,like, how does it play out?
And so one thing I would say isthe transition from the winter
to the summer was always a hardthing for me, because one in the
winter you're wearing a longsleeve shirt, so my arm was not
showing.
People sometimes wouldn't evenrealize it.
They're like, oh my gosh,you're missing your arm.
(30:09):
They wouldn't even realize it.
But then when the summer comes,we change our clothing from
long sleeve to short sleeve.
So there's my arm in all itsglory standing out to the world,
and that would be like reallyit'd be kind of hard for me.
But as I started to work onmyself, I was just at this point
of like you know what, I'm notgoing to care anymore.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
I'm not going to care .
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Like I can't do anything about it.
This is it.
I'm going to have to acceptthis, and so I would just not
care about a short sleeve shirtand and and what I noticed when
that happened?
I actually found myself beingable to be myself more with
people.
I wasn't like performing, Iwasn't trying to be something I
(30:54):
wasn't, I would just actually bemyself.
And actually when I was myself,people actually liked it Again.
I started to feel connected.
My friendships changed.
I mean, I used to have a groupof guys that I was very close
with at least I thought I wasclose with but none of these
guys were loyal.
And as I started to realizethese things about myself, I
(31:16):
became a little more selectivein who my friends were.
And the friends I have nowthey're the most loyal guys.
They're so loyal and I getemotional even thinking about it
, like I just have these reallygood guy friends.
And so again back to story.
That was my story inadequacy,and it played out in my stuff.
And now you know, I would sayeven in my marriage.
(31:39):
I would say my marriage is oneof the healthiest relationships
I've ever been in, like it'sjust so good and I thank God for
it.
My wife is amazing and Iwouldn't have noticed her if I
hadn't done this work because Iwould have still been looking
for that.
You know, prettiest girl in theroom syndrome that I had, I
(32:00):
would say she is the prettiestgirl in the room syndrome that I
had.
I would say she is theprettiest girl in my room now,
like she might not be theprettiest girl in the room, but
she's the prettiest girl in myroom and that's the room that
matters, and so I want to say toyour listeners that there is
hope.
You have to do the work, youhave to know what your stuff is.
And again my stuff was.
(32:21):
I felt inadequate, and you haveto name that.
That's so important to name it,because once you name it, then
you can see it.
You see it play out in yourrelationships, you see it play
out in work, you see it play outall over the place, and then
once you see, it, then you canchange it.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
That's so empowering.
Rick.
What is your favorite thingabout freedom from porn?
Speaker 2 (32:43):
There's a number of things that come to mind.
If I could say two just havingthe clear conscience, like you
just feel so freed and you'renot carrying around the shame
and the guilt which then, as aconsequence of that is you're
connected in a relationshipbecause you're not walking
around with the guilt, everyoneyou know, I would probably
(33:05):
guarantee after you act out, youdon't want to be around anyone,
you want to isolate, you want,you want to stay away from
people and freedom, you want tobe around people and I love
people.
So that's, that's the best.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
It's the best, especially when you don't have
to prove yourself Right.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Oh my gosh, you, you accept yourself.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Amen, yeah, amen.
That's awesome, rick, thank youso much for being with us.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
It's been an honor and a pleasure.
I'm very thankful for being onyour on your show.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
I thankful for being on your show.
I'm so glad we did this.
Guys, if you want to connectwith Rick or learn more about
his practice, you can go down tothe links in the show notes and
always remember you are God'sbeloved son In you.
He is well-pleased.
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