July 30, 2024 • 36 mins
Have you ever felt deeply hurt by your church community, as if the very place meant to offer spiritual solace became a source of pain? Discover how church hurt can inflict emotional and spiritual wounds that go far beyond minor daily disappointments. Through a mix of personal stories and societal insights, we illuminate why such profound hurt often leads to people permanently leaving their congregations, stressing the dire need for compassion and understanding in addressing these sensitive issues.
Join us as we scrutinize the moral and spiritual responsibilities that churches hold, exploring how Western cultural influences have shaped American church practices, sometimes leading to controversial and unorthodox methods. We also delve into the troubling tendency of some churches to prioritize their image and unity over transparency, especially when dealing with scandals involving fallen ministers. This conversation highlights the significant impact of poor leadership during personal crises and the critical need for integrity and accountability within church communities.
Healing from church hurt is a complex journey, but forgiveness can be a powerful tool in this process. Learn about the importance of accurately attributing blame and differentiating between personal grievances and institutional failings. We discuss practical strategies for coping, such as taking time off or finding a new congregation, and emphasize the mutual need for understanding between church members and leaders. We aim to provide a compassionate roadmap towards healing, fostering a more caring and supportive church environment for everyone involved. Tune in for this essential conversation on navigating church hurt and finding a path to emotional and spiritual recovery.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hey, good morning.
Good morning, this is Brad.
I'm with my wife, tiffany.
We are the host of the Hustleand Flow podcast.
Thank you for listening thismorning and taking your time to
spend with us.
We are going to be discussingchurch hurt this morning, and so
I'd like to say it's a topicI'm real excited about, but
probably not so much becauseit's a delicate topic and we're
(00:38):
going to try to do it justice aswe talk about it this morning.
Good morning, tiffany.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Good morning.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
What's happening?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Just trying to get through the summer heat and get
a little bit of reprieve fromthis Mississippi heat that you
know we have a lot of heat andhumidity.
In the south the humidity makesit so much worse.
I'm convinced of that for sure,being in other places like Las
Vegas.
It doesn't have much humidity.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
But it's been hot in Vegas.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
It's been like 120 degrees in vegas.
Man, it's been crazy, yeah, butit feels different.
You know, we've been there andit feels different, like 100
there feels different than 100.
So I've spent a little bit moretime indoors.
I just look out the windows atoutdoors, which sometimes, you
know, if I have a little deadspace, I'll like, if I've got
three or four minutes before I'mdoing the next thing or waiting
on something to come out of theoven, I'll go to TikTok and I'm
it's dying down, which is alittle disappointing because it
(01:30):
was so much fun the first weekafter the presidential debate,
also known as the comedy show.
So you know it's.
It's like.
You know, is it the kids?
I don't know what generationstarted saying like, be for real
, like I think everybody.
When we were watching it, wewere like is this for real?
Are we being punked?
Be for real.
It was just we are not beingpunked, it was just too much.
(01:54):
You know, the golf thing hascirculated so much and it's
absolutely ridiculous.
So I don't know, we're in storefor something.
None of us know yet what, butwe're in store for something,
huh.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Well, you know, here's the thing I know.
And the Bible says thatnobody's in power, that he don't
allow to be in power, andnobody really enjoys hearing
that.
So everybody's like there's noway that God allowed him to be
in power for years.
Well, I believe the Bible, soanyway, I actually.
I was thinking about Brewster'sMillions, if you've seen the
(02:31):
movie.
He goes into the race, richardPryor, and he says vote for none
of the above.
But I've got two candidatesthat I really think would do
well in this election and youwant to tell them who?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
it is.
I just realized after Ifinished saying what I was
saying.
I looked at your shirt thatsays Seinfeld Costanza 24, a
campaign about nothing, and soyou were in my story with that
shirt on and I got more comments, not about anything else that
was in my Facebook story, butabout you.
Know your shirt and where yougot the shirt, yeah.
So I just realized after Ifinished saying that that that's
(03:04):
, I guess, yeah, the campaignabout nothing.
I feel like this campaign isabout nothing, but you know, I
definitely I definitely is acampaign I can get behind.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Seinfeld could stands a 24, man.
That would be a crazy ticket.
But hey, thank you so much forlistening this morning.
We love just hanging out andspending time, uh, talking with
and we hope you guys areenjoying the podcast.
You know we really want to beable to do these subjects
justice and there are somesubjects that are a little more
delicate than others.
(03:33):
There's some that are just funto talk about.
We just finished a coupletalking about some mental
toughness and things like that.
But you know, those are fun.
But today's topic is not reallyfun because it is something
that is near and dear to a lotof people and a lot of people
have walked through this andexperienced it, and it's church
hurt.
So what's your first thought?
(03:55):
When I say church hurt, whatautomatically just comes to mind
?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
I mean just, I think the first thing that comes to
mind is just stories of storiesof, you know, people who have
experienced church hurt and andthe outcome for them you know
for that, and there's just somany degrees of church hurt, so
I won't I won't get into toomuch of that yet, but yeah, sure
, yeah, I understand.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Well, yeah, I understand.
Well, I saw this.
I saw this post on facebook theother, the other day and, um,
when I saw it I'll just behonest with you my first thought
was that's stupid, because thepost was and you may have shared
.
If you shared it, I love youstill.
Uh, is that mcdonald's can messup your order a hundred times,
(04:45):
but church does something to youand you never come back.
And I thought, well, man, thatsounds really really good.
That must be in Brad, chapterfour, verse three.
And then I thought to myselfthat's dumb, because McDonald's
has no moral or spiritualobligation to you.
(05:07):
They're serving you.
I don't know what those chickennuggets are and I know they
serve the McRib, which isbasically a Brillo pad with
barbecue sauce on it.
They serve you food.
They're under no moralobligation If they screw your
order up.
So what?
If you want McDonald's, you'regoing to go back and get some
(05:27):
chicken nuggets.
You're never going to get icecream, but you're going to get
some chicken nuggets.
You know what I'm saying?
They're under no moralobligation, but the church
itself is a different story.
So when you parallel somethinglike that, it makes no sense.
No, it's a crazy jump it is.
It's just social media, but itis a crazy jump because the
church is under a moral orspiritual obligation to you and
(05:48):
your family, right?
What does that look like?
I mean, what do you?
What do you think about that?
When I say that that they'reunder moral and spiritual
obligation, what do you think?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Well that they have some responsibility to shepherd
your family correctly and to topresent the truth to you and
uphold the truths and thedoctrine of the church with
integrity and to just do otherpractices with integrity, to to
(06:19):
the goings on with the churchwith integrity and and morality,
yeah, and that's that's a goodanswer.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
That's what I, that's actually what I was looking for
, because we are, as the body ofChrist, the church,
specifically the local church.
It has an obligation to you andyour family that we say we hold
these truths of the Bible, thatthis is what we believe, that
the Bible says, and that we areto enforce those and help you
(06:46):
with those and help walk throughthose.
So we owe that to you and yourfamily, and you know, the one
thing that I think and you and Ikind of we didn't disagree last
night, we said, hey, maybe thisis a better way to talk about
this is that American churchesaren't always a true picture of
the church as a whole and thatthey somewhat have in some ways
(07:09):
become polluted with Westernideas and the advancements that
we have in our country.
It has bled its way into thechurch.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
So well, you know, I didn't think about this when we
were talking about this lastnight.
But even just you know, if you,if you are on social media, you
see people that are starting tobe very vocal, like there's the
church Nope Guy that goes in andthis is crazy and some of it is
really great, yeah, and thenthere was a lot of controversy
over a large church in Texas,their Easter program, some of
(07:41):
the things they had, and peoplethat were dressed very modest,
and then people that the songsthey incorporate, all those
things, and so people that arelooking in go that's not church,
that's crazy.
And you know, here's the thing,like we're saying, is that for
us, and especially for America,some of our churches are being
(08:04):
polluted by the outsideinfluence.
But if you go to Australia,back in the bush, you know they
don't have that in their church.
Their church doesn't look likethat.
If you, you know, you'vetraveled to Trinidad a few times
and went to church there theirchurches do not have acrobats in
(08:27):
bikinis, you know, flyingthrough the air for an Easter
production, like that's crazy,that's unheard of in other
churches.
And so sometimes, yes, we saythat American church isn't
necessarily just the truepicture of what the church is
supposed to look like.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, can you?
I mean, and I'm not trying todown the American church,
because it is what it is now,okay, but can you imagine a
group of people from Ghanacoming out of the bush and
coming over to one of ourchurches and they're like, well,
it's nice, this ain't got noroaches or nothing, you know?
I mean, can you imagine theyI'm going to say this and I'm
(09:08):
not trying to be offensive, Ipromise you I'm not they
wouldn't understand that that'schurch.
They might say, well, okay, themusic's good and there's
preaching's good, but they mightnot understand because just
because something you see in alocal body does not mean that
that is actually what church is.
Sometimes, and I'm telling you,the Western ideas, man, have
(09:32):
really infiltrated our church.
Yeah, they really have.
And you know some churches,when we talk about church, some
churches are intoself-preservation, image,
reputation, and they want to tryto.
And we've talked about this and, man, this is a delicate
subject, but churches sweep crapunder the rug.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Why.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
I think for some churches it's the consensus of
if you know, if people know thisis going on, they'll leave,
it'll bring the vibe down Likeit'll bring the.
We won't have unity if peopleknow that this or that is
happening.
And so I think sometimes thingsare swept under the rug in
preservation of keepingeverything exactly how it is and
(10:20):
intact, to not disturb thewaters or to change anything.
I would hope it would not everbe, you know, so that they have
a loss of tithes becausefamilies may leave or people may
leave, or if we say somethingto this family, they're the
biggest giver they're going to,they're going to not give
anymore, like I hope those arenot such a way.
You know situations that happen,but they are.
(10:40):
We've been in church ministrylong enough to know that they
are sometimes.
But it happens, but they are.
We've been in church ministrylong enough to know that they
are sometimes.
But I think that that'sdefinitely some of it and the
church just doesn't, becausealso because there's so many
churches that have had thingsexposed that it's bringing such
a black eye sometimes on churchin general that we don't, we
don't want to be another,another church with the black
eye.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
You know, right, but you know, and I'm here, we go it
.
We have seen lately there'sbeen a lot of ministers fall and
you know I'm not going to callnames, but you guys know if you,
(11:21):
if you, if you read any post oranything, you know that there
are men who have fallen.
But you know, in my opinion, inmy experience, what I've seen
is that church hurt happens alot by members.
They get hurt in church becausethey're exposed by maybe
(11:41):
whatever's happened in theirlife, whether it's real or not,
or whether it's a sin or not.
Sometimes things get exposed.
But I've never reallyunderstood and you and I have
talked about this some why it isthat we feel like that we have
to cover leadership and we sweepleadership sins under the rug
and we try to salvage thereputation or salvage the image
(12:02):
of the preacher.
But yet, as a member, a lot ofthem get nailed to the cross and
that's I hate that.
That probably soundsdisrespectful, but they get
nailed to the wall over theirstuff.
But churches sometimes sweepthat stuff under the rug and
they're trying to preserve thepreacher.
I told you about a TikTok that Iwas listening to the other day
(12:24):
is that the wife called in andshe said that her husband she
didn't know if she should staywith him or not that he had
touched an underage girlinappropriately.
And of course, our firstthought is what?
When somebody in church touchesan underage girl
inappropriately, what legally?
What do you think is supposedto happen?
I mean, you should notify theauthorities, but you know what
happened, they did not.
Yeah, but you know whathappened, they did not.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
They sent him through intensive therapy.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
And that's you know, that's on you if something like
that happens again, oh, ahundred percent.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
And but I, but I've been part of churches where we
don't want to prosecute them,and not just sexually.
Okay, we're talking about otherthings.
I don't, we don't want to, wedon't want to pursue that.
We don't want to pursue that.
We don't want to pursue that.
We don't want to pursue that.
We don't want to pursue that.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
We want to try to salvage this man these
(13:48):
situations, people have hadplenty of time and space to fix
their mess, to fix theirproclivities, their things that
they have going on.
And so when God finally doesshine the light on something
because we didn't fix our mess,then the consequence then is not
really always so much up to us,it's not but I think it goes
back to their sliding scales ofsin, depending on, maybe, who it
is or what it is.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
They're sliding scales and all sin, even in the
Bible, all sin is the same, butall sins don't have the same
consequence and I think that youknow it could cost you your job
, your role in leadership, costyou your family.
You know leaders need to beprotectors of a flock and I
think that that sometimes,though, um, people get hurt
because things aren't handledcorrectly, does that make sense,
(14:32):
that the people, that thatmaybe the leadership don't
handle things correctly?
But we're just talking aboutchurch hurt in general?
Um, you know, I was reading,reading some, some things lately
.
Um, a guy said that he quitchurch.
His dad was when he was 13,.
His dad had surgery on heart,his heart surgery, and the
pastor told him uh, his dad diedduring surgery.
(14:54):
And his dad said, or the pastortold him said, your dad
probably wouldn't have realChristian If he was, god
wouldn't have taken him that way.
That hurt that guy and he quitchurch and he quit church, yeah,
and he quit church?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
I imagine so.
And he quit church?
Yeah, because we confuse thatsomebody says something really
stupid, that you know, withchurch and that they're all
going to be that way becausethere was a human involved that
said something really dumb,really stupid, handled something
the wrong way.
That that's church and that'sthey're not.
One in the same, like, peopleare human, and that's one thing
(15:28):
we have to to understandsometimes that people are human,
but that's not necessarilyalways church.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
No, because the people have unrealistic
expectations sometimes aboutchurch, because the church is
led by God but Ramah humans.
That's where it gets sticky.
Yeah because I'm just a man andI'm going to make some mistakes
and I'm going to say some dumbthings.
And I can tell you, over 52years in church, I probably said
some dumb things.
I know, I have you know, anddid I do it with the intention
(15:59):
to hurt somebody?
No, but did I hurt people?
Possibly through some thingsthat I said?
You know what's the old sayingSticks and stones don't don't
break my bones, but are break mybones, but words won't ever
harm me.
Well, that's not true.
Yeah, words will cut deep,because somebody can say
something to you that it canopen or cut a wound that it
(16:20):
takes years to heal.
You know, and and we talk aboutthe framework of the church when
you look at that, people thinkabout that.
It needs to be a place ofhealing, hope, forgiveness,
helping people put their lifetogether, and it gets confusing.
This is what happens whenyou're in your lowest point and
you're going through yourdarkest time and somebody does
not help you at church.
(16:40):
What happens a lot of time?
You get hurt, yeah, and theycan't understand in my worst
time, why you're not there forme.
Why would you say something?
My dad just died.
Why would you tell me that hewasn't a Christian or he
wouldn't have died that way.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Or you know, my dad just died.
Why would you not show up?
You know, when we preach andteach that our church, you know
this is you come here and welove you and we love you.
Well, love to us looks like ifsomething bad happens in my life
that you're going to show up.
Do you want?
to talk about that you want totalk about that to a limited
personal experience.
That was definitely and I was.
(17:17):
That's not what I was going to,I wasn't going to necessarily
mention that, but, yeah, thatwas something that I had to get
over was being closely connectedin a church.
Being closely connected in achurch and one of the top three
worst periods in my life, youknow, of losing someone and then
and not having people show up,leadership show up that was
(17:38):
something that I realized that Ihad allowed myself to be deeply
hurt and offended over and Ihad to work through that.
And I had to work through itand say, ok though, that's this
church, but that not me.
I know that's not every church,because I've been to another
church.
Well, actually, which was crazy, the church that I was at they
did, you know, I did have anexpectation and I was let down.
(17:59):
But I know it's not everychurch because another church
where I had worked on staff atand been closely connected with
that leadership drove an hour tobe there for me.
So I know it's not every churchand I can if I would have
thought, okay, well, this ischurch, I'm not going to be a
part of a church that doesn'tshow up, I'm not going to go to
church anymore because churchdoesn't love me, doesn't care,
I'm not going to show up forchurch.
That wouldn't have been true.
But um, you know, going back tosomething also and all those
(18:26):
things I was, I was thinkingeven just sometimes when we
leave a church we get hurtbecause nobody checks on us.
Did they even care that we left?
And then if we see maybeleadership out in public or
church members out in public,they don't speak to us, they
don't act like they ever evenknew us, and that hurts and
that's harmful.
And sometimes I think asbelievers we don't realize that
just not knowing what to say andsaying nothing and embracing
(18:49):
those people that wefellowshiped with on a weekly
basis at church, just becausethey're not with us anymore,
like that's not where ourobligation stops with our
brothers and sisters.
Like you go and speak to themin Walmart and say, man, I was
thinking about you, I've missedyou.
You know that goes a long waybecause we don't ever know
sometimes why people left, butyou want to always keep the door
(19:11):
open and close it, very likelybecause we don't know what
situation was going on.
But we know that we don't wantto play a part in them never
coming back and being part of achurch body again.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yeah, Because that can contribute to being hurt.
Right, and, like you said, uh,there are so many people on the
fringe that are one step awayfrom never going to church again
and you're that person that canhelp them and walk through that
with them.
You know, I think it goes backto, though, sometimes people.
They feel like the church isreal heavy in judgment all the
time.
And let me say this Nobody'sperfect.
(19:45):
We all make mistakes and wescrew up, and you know you need
to maybe not look at it fromthat point that everything's
about judging you.
There's a way that things needto be done.
You know there's order inchurch and a lot of people let
me say this, a lot of goodpeople make decisions in haste
pressure, image protection.
(20:05):
They do stuff quickly withoutmaybe putting it in perspective,
and it hurts people.
You know, if you're hurt rightnow from church, you know you've
got a story.
Yeah, and everybody has a story.
Do you have a story of churchhurt?
Of course, yeah, yeah, mike, doyou have a story of church hurt
?
Absolutely, I've got a story ofchurch hurt.
(20:25):
But what's the difference?
How is it that you can begin toheal or come back from church
hurt?
What?
I've got a story of church hurt.
But what's the difference?
How is it that you can begin toheal or come back from church
hurt?
What do you?
What do you?
Where do you think you start?
Speaker 2 (20:35):
I think, if at all possible, you go to the person
whether it's a member orleadership you know that hurt
you and try to talk thatsituation out.
Wait a minute.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
You're talking biblical stuffnow.
Hang on just a second.
So you're saying that if I'moffended or hurt, I need to go
to that person and talk to themabout it and not go to my mama?
Yeah, okay, I can go ahead.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
I think that's you know, that's and that's the
thing is, I don't know.
You know, we just don't want todo that Sometimes we don't want
to.
It's easier just to walk awayfrom a situation than to be
confrontational that we feellike, or to bring it up or to.
We don't want to be messy, sowe think it's just better just
to leave the situation or leavethe church, or leave whatever,
(21:14):
or then then to do that.
But sometimes, you know, we canfind out that maybe we there
was a misunderstanding, or youknow, um, nobody checked on me
when, when I was in the hospital.
Well, did they know you're?
They didn't know you were inthe hospital Because I'm the
ladies leader at our church.
Somebody said are we going todo meals for so-and-so that had
surgery?
I said I didn't know she hadsurgery.
(21:34):
What are you even talking about?
But we may find out that therewas something we didn't know.
If we do that sometimes I thinkthat's one of the first things
is just to see if there's anyway possible to to talk it out?
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Yeah, maybe to clear the air.
Ok, because you said it.
Sometimes it's just amisunderstanding.
You ever had that happen beforeyou and I've had that happen.
We've talked, we were talkingabout two separate things and
you thought I was talking aboutsomething I thought was talking
about and all of a sudden, boom,we're like in an argument.
I'm like whoa, hey, hey, hey,whoa, I didn't like that.
What I was saying.
You're like OK, then you know,but sometimes that's that
(22:12):
misunderstanding.
But I think too, in order tostart to heal from church hurt,
is that you have to acknowledgethat you've been hurt.
Our two and a half year oldgranddaughter she has more boo
boos.
I mean, every time she comesshe's got a boo-boo.
Well, she don't mind to tellyou she's got a boo-boo, yeah,
but good, christian folks whoget hurt, they almost wear it as
(22:35):
a badge of honor to suffer insilence or maybe ignore the hurt
or disappointment or regret,because they think it's the
Christian thing to do.
I just need to choke this,choke, choke this down and
pretend I'm not hurt.
Well, your arm's, laying in thefloor, it's been ripped off.
No, no, no, no, my arm's fine,I'm fine.
But you can acknowledge thatyou've been hurt.
(22:57):
Well, I just don't.
I don't think that's the waythings you know.
I just want to show my emotion.
Well, you know what Jesus did.
You remember the story ofLazarus?
Guess what Jesus did whenLazarus died?
He cried.
Guess what happened when Jesuswas in the garden and about to
go to the cross?
He was under duress, he wasstressed out.
(23:21):
So you can acknowledge, if theLord, god Almighty, can
acknowledge that he had emotionand he had some things, you
can't too, and I think that'sone of the things that you have
to acknowledge you've been hurt.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Why do you think people hide that?
Well, I mean, I think, just forthe reasons that you said, that
it just may be easier just topush it down and move past it
and not bring it up and hopingit'll just you know that feeling
will go away.
Sometimes they don't, though.
I think that's when you have toaddress.
It is when you realize you'renot getting over that thing.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Yeah, that makes sense.
I think the other thing too, inorder to heal, not only do you
have to acknowledge you've beenhurt.
The other thing and I like thisand I've been thinking about
this is that you have to changeperspective on who or what hurt
you, that it wasn't actually thechurch itself that hurt you,
that it was someone or a groupof people that hurt you and you
(24:22):
got to assign hurt, anger, blameto that particular person and
not the church itself.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Well, and even maybe specifically it could have been
that church If that church votedyou out.
Yeah, and there's probablyextenuating circumstances, but
as a whole I mean, let's just behonest, and this is what other
denominations do is what otherdenominations do.
But you know, we know there'sdenominations that if they know
that you're living with somebodythat's not your husband, they
(24:48):
will get together in a businessmeeting and they will decide
that you do not, you're not amember there anymore, and
they're going to, they're goingto vote on sending you a letter.
That happens, it does, ithappens.
So maybe that church as a whole, maybe that church did hurt you
, but that again is not allchurches like it's, you know.
Like it's.
You know, if somebody atMcDonald's hurts me and is rude
(25:13):
to me, mcdonald's did not hurtme.
That person or that location orthat whatever, and that's the
thing is like that may.
Sometimes that's location,specific.
That's not the church as awhole.
It's time for you to find outif they voted you out.
Go somewhere that will love you, right.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Well, and so that that does happen occasionally,
but for the most part, I think alot of times it's usually
specific to somebody.
Yeah, somebody hurt me, and soyou have to assign that blame.
That it was Joe hurt, or it wasStephanie hurt, or it was hurt
from this person at thisparticular church and it's a
weak spot in the church,sometimes Not the church as a
(25:50):
whole.
So when we talk about churchhurt, you need to assign
appropriation to the right thingand the right person.
That it was Tiffany that hurtme, and so I have a problem with
Tiffany, but I don't have aproblem with Pastor Mike, I
don't have a problem with thischurch.
I have a problem with thisperson and you reorientate
(26:11):
yourself and change yourperspective and I think that
that helps.
So, acknowledging changing,maybe, your perspective,
whatever else, what else?
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Yeah, you know, and I don't know if this is really a
good place to put this in, butI'm going to.
Sometimes, though, even withour hurt, we need to realize are
we mad?
Are we just offended?
Are we disappointed to be ableto work through our hurt, and
(26:42):
are we deeply hurt?
You find yourself beingoffended a lot?
Then there is a possibilitythat this you know that it may
it could be you yeah, that maybeyou've got to do a checkup and
find out, like why am I beingoffended so much?
(27:02):
If you're mad a lot, if you getmad over lots of things you know
at church, then we, you domaybe need to do a checkup and
say, ok, like why, why is thisaffecting me this way?
And make sure, going back towhat you said, that you don't
have unrealistic expectations,and and try to develop a little
(27:24):
bit more than we just did, oneon mental toughness, a little
bit mental toughness to whereeverything doesn't hurt you or
offend you at church.
Because you know, I will saytoo, there's a certain point in
time, like if you get offendedor hurt in church a lot and
you've been in church a while,that we, you just got to grow up
a little.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Sometimes it's maturity.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Yeah, you got to, you got to grow up a little, but
then you know, if, if there issomething that that did deeply
hurt you and it's real and it'svalid, then you may need to
create just a little bit ofspace between between you and
the person that you know thatdid it.
Um, you know, and and there's,maybe pastors are going to be
(28:02):
like, oh no, no, stop, I don't.
I don't know about that, but ifyou, if you're going to church
every Sunday morning and ithurts and it's painful and
you're bitter and you'rewhatever, then maybe you need to
, you know, take a beat, go govisit another, another church
for just for a couple of weeksand let yourself, you know, heal
.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Yeah, yeah, and it could be changing locations If
you're, if you're at a churchthat has multiple locations,
maybe you change locationsYou're still going to church,
but change locations You'restill going to church, but you
change locations.
If you're in a small church,it's a little more difficult.
Maybe you do have to have aseason that you have to separate
for a while, because you can'theal if you constantly have the
wound being ripped open and youhave to learn how to work
(28:43):
through that.
And I'm going to say thisEverybody talks about I'm hurt,
I'm hurt.
And I'm going to say thisEverybody, everybody talks about
I'm hurt, I'm hurt, I'm hurt.
But I'm going to go from theministry perspective too.
There are men and women of Godwho have been hurt by their
(29:04):
congregation and we tear themdown and blow them up and expect
them to stand up every Sundayand minister to us and take our
barbs and take our beatings.
And I'm going to be honest withyou there are men, good men,
women of God that have been hurttoo.
And if you're that person, youknow I get it.
Maybe the church pays you, butmaybe it's time for you to step
down and go get healed somewheretoo.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Well, you know, I want to say this because I think
there's zero chance this lady'slistening.
Well, you know, I want to saythis because I think there's
zero chance this lady islistening.
But you know, I was somewherejust very recently and a lady
spoke up in the middle of asituation and said something
(29:46):
no-transcript but you know.
Then talking to that person,you know the pastor later really
affected him and it was sohurtful and mean and you know we
don't think about you know, butthey have so many situations
like that sometimes.
But they have to go home, andyou know, but then they've got
to go and act like everything'sokay and still treat you and
(30:08):
your family like everything isokay.
And you know, take on theburden of somebody who's really
got a situation here that needsthem in the middle of the night,
and all these things that arestill carrying around some of
those, you know hurts A hundredpercent.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Well, and I've told you, I was raised in a small,
small denominational church, andcan I tell you the number of
times my mama went home cryingbecause people were mean to her
or mean to my dad Because theywere pastoring, because they
were pastoring the church andjust mean.
And so you have to work throughand listen.
You may have to go sit downSometimes and I'm going to say
(30:48):
this from a pastor perspective.
Sometimes you need to go setyour butt down.
Okay, I get it, man, you wantto preach the word, you want to
pass.
Sometimes you need to sit downand heal and not serve and not
get all back up involved inthings again.
And so you know what I need aseason to heal too, and I think
that's important.
The only way you do that iscreating some space.
(31:14):
I think you also have to seeksome godly counsel.
Listen, you don't live in aworld by yourself.
You need to go find people youcan trust and that you can talk
this thing out with and, youknow, work through it with, and
I think that that's important.
But to finish up here and we canfinish up with the last couple
of points here is thatforgiveness is the bedrock of
the Christian faith.
It is.
(31:36):
I understand you're hurt and Idon't.
I do not belittle that.
I know that there is a lot ofhurt and there's a lot of real
hurt, but forgiveness is thebedrock of the Christian faith
and Jesus wants us to forgivepeople who hurt us.
He does and that is the hardestpart it really is.
He does and that is the hardestpart it really is.
Forgiveness is the hardest partbecause when you see that
person, you remember, but youmay never forget.
(31:56):
But you can choose forgivenessover and over and, over and over
.
And how do you work throughthat?
Speaker 2 (32:03):
I mean, you've been that I think you have to make a
choice to forgive, even when youdon't feel it and you don't see
it and your heart's not in it.
Yet I remember talking tosomebody and they had a terrible
, terrible situation and I saidevery time you think about this
because your mind is trying toplay it back to you, you're
going to have to say I choose toforgive, I choose to forgive
and eventually you're going tofind the more that you pray
about it and you say that outloud and you shut your mind down
(32:26):
when it's replaying the badthing that happened.
You know that, that you areforgiving, because I believe a
hundred percent that forgivingsomebody is for you.
It, um, I believewholeheartedly that you do
become mentally ill, physicallyill, all those things, when
you're holding on tounforgiveness, and I think that
(32:47):
you can get in your own waysometimes of what God maybe has
for you if you cannot move intoa place of forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Yeah, I think so too.
And forgiveness, I'm tellingyou, it's the bedrock of this
whole thing.
The only way you heal fromchurch hurt is forgiveness.
You can do steps one, two,three, four, five, but if you
skip forgiveness, you will notheal.
You will always have somebitterness, you'll always have
some hurt, you'll always havesome anger.
But forgiveness is the way, itis the only way.
(33:17):
And I get it.
Hey guys, if you're out therelistening and you've been hurt
at church, if people have hurtyou, man, we understand, like we
hear you, and I read all thecomments and I read and listen
to things and see things, but itdoes not represent the church
as a whole.
Okay, there are people who makemistakes, there are people who
(33:39):
they're evil people.
Okay, even people who hurt youon purpose, but not everybody's
out to get you.
Not everybody hurts you onpurpose, and God wants you to
learn how to forgive, and Ithink that's an important facet.
It is the crux of what we'retalking about here.
Forgiveness is the way, and so Idon't know what it looks like
(34:01):
for you.
I don't know where you aretoday, I don't know what you're
facing, I don't know what theydid to you, but I can tell you
that there's a God in heaventhat loves you.
There's a God in heaven wholoves his church and he wants
you to be a part of his life andbe a part of things.
And there is a way to come backfrom church.
(34:22):
Hurt, but it takes lots ofperseverance, lots of being
honest, lots of making thingsright on both sides and figuring
out how to work through it.
Any final words?
Speaker 2 (34:36):
No, I think those are some good things.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Sounds good.
That's it.
That's a heavy subject and itain't always fun to end on that,
but I can tell you, god stillloves you, no matter where you
are, no matter what's happened.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
I do have a final thought yeah, let's go.
If you've become unchurchedbecause of that, I would just
say try again, because you maybe missing friendships,
relationships and things thatyou don't even know.
You know that you're missing byby, by staying in that place of
church hurt and just shutting,shutting it off off.
That that's it and I'll nevergo back.
And I see that when you put outa TikTok asking about church
(35:12):
hurt stories there was so muchof.
I will never go back.
That was the predominant themeand I just encourage you to try
again.
It's okay to sit on the backand observe and to whatever, but
to try again because everychurch is not like the one that
hurt you.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
That's good word, that's goodword.
Hey, thank you so much forlistening this morning.
We encourage you to get in theflow of life, find people who
are going the direction you wantto go and hop in there with
them and you'll change yourwhole life.
Thank you for listening.
Have a great morning.
Outro Music.
Hey, good morning.
Good morning, this is Brad.
I'm with my wife, tiffany.
We are the host of the Hustleand Flow podcast.
Thank you for listening thismorning and taking your time to
spend with us.
We are going to be discussingchurch hurt this morning, and so
I'd like to say it's a topicI'm real excited about, but
probably not so much becauseit's a delicate topic and we're
(00:38):
going to try to do it justice aswe talk about it this morning.
Good morning, tiffany.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Good morning.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
What's happening?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Just trying to get through the summer heat and get
a little bit of reprieve fromthis Mississippi heat that you
know we have a lot of heat andhumidity.
In the south the humidity makesit so much worse.
I'm convinced of that for sure,being in other places like Las
Vegas.
It doesn't have much humidity.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
But it's been hot in Vegas.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
It's been like 120 degrees in vegas.
Man, it's been crazy, yeah, butit feels different.
You know, we've been there andit feels different, like 100
there feels different than 100.
So I've spent a little bit moretime indoors.
I just look out the windows atoutdoors, which sometimes, you
know, if I have a little deadspace, I'll like, if I've got
three or four minutes before I'mdoing the next thing or waiting
on something to come out of theoven, I'll go to TikTok and I'm
it's dying down, which is alittle disappointing because it
(01:30):
was so much fun the first weekafter the presidential debate,
also known as the comedy show.
So you know it's.
It's like.
You know, is it the kids?
I don't know what generationstarted saying like, be for real
, like I think everybody.
When we were watching it, wewere like is this for real?
Are we being punked?
Be for real.
It was just we are not beingpunked, it was just too much.
(01:54):
You know, the golf thing hascirculated so much and it's
absolutely ridiculous.
So I don't know, we're in storefor something.
None of us know yet what, butwe're in store for something,
huh.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Well, you know, here's the thing I know.
And the Bible says thatnobody's in power, that he don't
allow to be in power, andnobody really enjoys hearing
that.
So everybody's like there's noway that God allowed him to be
in power for years.
Well, I believe the Bible, soanyway, I actually.
I was thinking about Brewster'sMillions, if you've seen the
(02:31):
movie.
He goes into the race, richardPryor, and he says vote for none
of the above.
But I've got two candidatesthat I really think would do
well in this election and youwant to tell them who?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
it is.
I just realized after Ifinished saying what I was
saying.
I looked at your shirt thatsays Seinfeld Costanza 24, a
campaign about nothing, and soyou were in my story with that
shirt on and I got more comments, not about anything else that
was in my Facebook story, butabout you.
Know your shirt and where yougot the shirt, yeah.
So I just realized after Ifinished saying that that that's
(03:04):
, I guess, yeah, the campaignabout nothing.
I feel like this campaign isabout nothing, but you know, I
definitely I definitely is acampaign I can get behind.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Seinfeld could stands a 24, man.
That would be a crazy ticket.
But hey, thank you so much forlistening this morning.
We love just hanging out andspending time, uh, talking with
and we hope you guys areenjoying the podcast.
You know we really want to beable to do these subjects
justice and there are somesubjects that are a little more
delicate than others.
(03:33):
There's some that are just funto talk about.
We just finished a coupletalking about some mental
toughness and things like that.
But you know, those are fun.
But today's topic is not reallyfun because it is something
that is near and dear to a lotof people and a lot of people
have walked through this andexperienced it, and it's church
hurt.
So what's your first thought?
(03:55):
When I say church hurt, whatautomatically just comes to mind
?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
I mean just, I think the first thing that comes to
mind is just stories of storiesof, you know, people who have
experienced church hurt and andthe outcome for them you know
for that, and there's just somany degrees of church hurt, so
I won't I won't get into toomuch of that yet, but yeah, sure
, yeah, I understand.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Well, yeah, I understand.
Well, I saw this.
I saw this post on facebook theother, the other day and, um,
when I saw it I'll just behonest with you my first thought
was that's stupid, because thepost was and you may have shared
.
If you shared it, I love youstill.
Uh, is that mcdonald's can messup your order a hundred times,
(04:45):
but church does something to youand you never come back.
And I thought, well, man, thatsounds really really good.
That must be in Brad, chapterfour, verse three.
And then I thought to myselfthat's dumb, because McDonald's
has no moral or spiritualobligation to you.
(05:07):
They're serving you.
I don't know what those chickennuggets are and I know they
serve the McRib, which isbasically a Brillo pad with
barbecue sauce on it.
They serve you food.
They're under no moralobligation If they screw your
order up.
So what?
If you want McDonald's, you'regoing to go back and get some
(05:27):
chicken nuggets.
You're never going to get icecream, but you're going to get
some chicken nuggets.
You know what I'm saying?
They're under no moralobligation, but the church
itself is a different story.
So when you parallel somethinglike that, it makes no sense.
No, it's a crazy jump it is.
It's just social media, but itis a crazy jump because the
church is under a moral orspiritual obligation to you and
(05:48):
your family, right?
What does that look like?
I mean, what do you?
What do you think about that?
When I say that that they'reunder moral and spiritual
obligation, what do you think?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Well that they have some responsibility to shepherd
your family correctly and to topresent the truth to you and
uphold the truths and thedoctrine of the church with
integrity and to just do otherpractices with integrity, to to
(06:19):
the goings on with the churchwith integrity and and morality,
yeah, and that's that's a goodanswer.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
That's what I, that's actually what I was looking for
, because we are, as the body ofChrist, the church,
specifically the local church.
It has an obligation to you andyour family that we say we hold
these truths of the Bible, thatthis is what we believe, that
the Bible says, and that we areto enforce those and help you
(06:46):
with those and help walk throughthose.
So we owe that to you and yourfamily, and you know, the one
thing that I think and you and Ikind of we didn't disagree last
night, we said, hey, maybe thisis a better way to talk about
this is that American churchesaren't always a true picture of
the church as a whole and thatthey somewhat have in some ways
(07:09):
become polluted with Westernideas and the advancements that
we have in our country.
It has bled its way into thechurch.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
So well, you know, I didn't think about this when we
were talking about this lastnight.
But even just you know, if you,if you are on social media, you
see people that are starting tobe very vocal, like there's the
church Nope Guy that goes in andthis is crazy and some of it is
really great, yeah, and thenthere was a lot of controversy
over a large church in Texas,their Easter program, some of
(07:41):
the things they had, and peoplethat were dressed very modest,
and then people that the songsthey incorporate, all those
things, and so people that arelooking in go that's not church,
that's crazy.
And you know, here's the thing,like we're saying, is that for
us, and especially for America,some of our churches are being
(08:04):
polluted by the outsideinfluence.
But if you go to Australia,back in the bush, you know they
don't have that in their church.
Their church doesn't look likethat.
If you, you know, you'vetraveled to Trinidad a few times
and went to church there theirchurches do not have acrobats in
(08:27):
bikinis, you know, flyingthrough the air for an Easter
production, like that's crazy,that's unheard of in other
churches.
And so sometimes, yes, we saythat American church isn't
necessarily just the truepicture of what the church is
supposed to look like.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, can you?
I mean, and I'm not trying todown the American church,
because it is what it is now,okay, but can you imagine a
group of people from Ghanacoming out of the bush and
coming over to one of ourchurches and they're like, well,
it's nice, this ain't got noroaches or nothing, you know?
I mean, can you imagine theyI'm going to say this and I'm
(09:08):
not trying to be offensive, Ipromise you I'm not they
wouldn't understand that that'schurch.
They might say, well, okay, themusic's good and there's
preaching's good, but they mightnot understand because just
because something you see in alocal body does not mean that
that is actually what church is.
Sometimes, and I'm telling you,the Western ideas, man, have
(09:32):
really infiltrated our church.
Yeah, they really have.
And you know some churches,when we talk about church, some
churches are intoself-preservation, image,
reputation, and they want to tryto.
And we've talked about this and, man, this is a delicate
subject, but churches sweep crapunder the rug.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Why.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
I think for some churches it's the consensus of
if you know, if people know thisis going on, they'll leave,
it'll bring the vibe down Likeit'll bring the.
We won't have unity if peopleknow that this or that is
happening.
And so I think sometimes thingsare swept under the rug in
preservation of keepingeverything exactly how it is and
(10:20):
intact, to not disturb thewaters or to change anything.
I would hope it would not everbe, you know, so that they have
a loss of tithes becausefamilies may leave or people may
leave, or if we say somethingto this family, they're the
biggest giver they're going to,they're going to not give
anymore, like I hope those arenot such a way.
You know situations that happen,but they are.
(10:40):
We've been in church ministrylong enough to know that they
are sometimes.
But it happens, but they are.
We've been in church ministrylong enough to know that they
are sometimes.
But I think that that'sdefinitely some of it and the
church just doesn't, becausealso because there's so many
churches that have had thingsexposed that it's bringing such
a black eye sometimes on churchin general that we don't, we
don't want to be another,another church with the black
eye.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
You know, right, but you know, and I'm here, we go it
.
We have seen lately there'sbeen a lot of ministers fall and
you know I'm not going to callnames, but you guys know if you,
(11:21):
if you, if you read any post oranything, you know that there
are men who have fallen.
But you know, in my opinion, inmy experience, what I've seen
is that church hurt happens alot by members.
They get hurt in church becausethey're exposed by maybe
(11:41):
whatever's happened in theirlife, whether it's real or not,
or whether it's a sin or not.
Sometimes things get exposed.
But I've never reallyunderstood and you and I have
talked about this some why it isthat we feel like that we have
to cover leadership and we sweepleadership sins under the rug
and we try to salvage thereputation or salvage the image
(12:02):
of the preacher.
But yet, as a member, a lot ofthem get nailed to the cross and
that's I hate that.
That probably soundsdisrespectful, but they get
nailed to the wall over theirstuff.
But churches sometimes sweepthat stuff under the rug and
they're trying to preserve thepreacher.
I told you about a TikTok that Iwas listening to the other day
(12:24):
is that the wife called in andshe said that her husband she
didn't know if she should staywith him or not that he had
touched an underage girlinappropriately.
And of course, our firstthought is what?
When somebody in church touchesan underage girl
inappropriately, what legally?
What do you think is supposedto happen?
I mean, you should notify theauthorities, but you know what
happened, they did not.
Yeah, but you know whathappened, they did not.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
They sent him through intensive therapy.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
And that's you know, that's on you if something like
that happens again, oh, ahundred percent.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
And but I, but I've been part of churches where we
don't want to prosecute them,and not just sexually.
Okay, we're talking about otherthings.
I don't, we don't want to, wedon't want to pursue that.
We don't want to pursue that.
We don't want to pursue that.
We don't want to pursue that.
We don't want to pursue that.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
We want to try to salvage this man these
(13:48):
situations, people have hadplenty of time and space to fix
their mess, to fix theirproclivities, their things that
they have going on.
And so when God finally doesshine the light on something
because we didn't fix our mess,then the consequence then is not
really always so much up to us,it's not but I think it goes
back to their sliding scales ofsin, depending on, maybe, who it
is or what it is.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
They're sliding scales and all sin, even in the
Bible, all sin is the same, butall sins don't have the same
consequence and I think that youknow it could cost you your job
, your role in leadership, costyou your family.
You know leaders need to beprotectors of a flock and I
think that that sometimes,though, um, people get hurt
because things aren't handledcorrectly, does that make sense,
(14:32):
that the people, that thatmaybe the leadership don't
handle things correctly?
But we're just talking aboutchurch hurt in general?
Um, you know, I was reading,reading some, some things lately
.
Um, a guy said that he quitchurch.
His dad was when he was 13,.
His dad had surgery on heart,his heart surgery, and the
pastor told him uh, his dad diedduring surgery.
(14:54):
And his dad said, or the pastortold him said, your dad
probably wouldn't have realChristian If he was, god
wouldn't have taken him that way.
That hurt that guy and he quitchurch and he quit church, yeah,
and he quit church?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
I imagine so.
And he quit church?
Yeah, because we confuse thatsomebody says something really
stupid, that you know, withchurch and that they're all
going to be that way becausethere was a human involved that
said something really dumb,really stupid, handled something
the wrong way.
That that's church and that'sthey're not.
One in the same, like, peopleare human, and that's one thing
(15:28):
we have to to understandsometimes that people are human,
but that's not necessarilyalways church.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
No, because the people have unrealistic
expectations sometimes aboutchurch, because the church is
led by God but Ramah humans.
That's where it gets sticky.
Yeah because I'm just a man andI'm going to make some mistakes
and I'm going to say some dumbthings.
And I can tell you, over 52years in church, I probably said
some dumb things.
I know, I have you know, anddid I do it with the intention
(15:59):
to hurt somebody?
No, but did I hurt people?
Possibly through some thingsthat I said?
You know what's the old sayingSticks and stones don't don't
break my bones, but are break mybones, but words won't ever
harm me.
Well, that's not true.
Yeah, words will cut deep,because somebody can say
something to you that it canopen or cut a wound that it
(16:20):
takes years to heal.
You know, and and we talk aboutthe framework of the church when
you look at that, people thinkabout that.
It needs to be a place ofhealing, hope, forgiveness,
helping people put their lifetogether, and it gets confusing.
This is what happens whenyou're in your lowest point and
you're going through yourdarkest time and somebody does
not help you at church.
(16:40):
What happens a lot of time?
You get hurt, yeah, and theycan't understand in my worst
time, why you're not there forme.
Why would you say something?
My dad just died.
Why would you tell me that hewasn't a Christian or he
wouldn't have died that way.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Or you know, my dad just died.
Why would you not show up?
You know, when we preach andteach that our church, you know
this is you come here and welove you and we love you.
Well, love to us looks like ifsomething bad happens in my life
that you're going to show up.
Do you want?
to talk about that you want totalk about that to a limited
personal experience.
That was definitely and I was.
(17:17):
That's not what I was going to,I wasn't going to necessarily
mention that, but, yeah, thatwas something that I had to get
over was being closely connectedin a church.
Being closely connected in achurch and one of the top three
worst periods in my life, youknow, of losing someone and then
and not having people show up,leadership show up that was
(17:38):
something that I realized that Ihad allowed myself to be deeply
hurt and offended over and Ihad to work through that.
And I had to work through itand say, ok though, that's this
church, but that not me.
I know that's not every church,because I've been to another
church.
Well, actually, which was crazy, the church that I was at they
did, you know, I did have anexpectation and I was let down.
(17:59):
But I know it's not everychurch because another church
where I had worked on staff atand been closely connected with
that leadership drove an hour tobe there for me.
So I know it's not every churchand I can if I would have
thought, okay, well, this ischurch, I'm not going to be a
part of a church that doesn'tshow up, I'm not going to go to
church anymore because churchdoesn't love me, doesn't care,
I'm not going to show up forchurch.
That wouldn't have been true.
But um, you know, going back tosomething also and all those
(18:26):
things I was, I was thinkingeven just sometimes when we
leave a church we get hurtbecause nobody checks on us.
Did they even care that we left?
And then if we see maybeleadership out in public or
church members out in public,they don't speak to us, they
don't act like they ever evenknew us, and that hurts and
that's harmful.
And sometimes I think asbelievers we don't realize that
just not knowing what to say andsaying nothing and embracing
(18:49):
those people that wefellowshiped with on a weekly
basis at church, just becausethey're not with us anymore,
like that's not where ourobligation stops with our
brothers and sisters.
Like you go and speak to themin Walmart and say, man, I was
thinking about you, I've missedyou.
You know that goes a long waybecause we don't ever know
sometimes why people left, butyou want to always keep the door
(19:11):
open and close it, very likelybecause we don't know what
situation was going on.
But we know that we don't wantto play a part in them never
coming back and being part of achurch body again.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yeah, Because that can contribute to being hurt.
Right, and, like you said, uh,there are so many people on the
fringe that are one step awayfrom never going to church again
and you're that person that canhelp them and walk through that
with them.
You know, I think it goes backto, though, sometimes people.
They feel like the church isreal heavy in judgment all the
time.
And let me say this Nobody'sperfect.
(19:45):
We all make mistakes and wescrew up, and you know you need
to maybe not look at it fromthat point that everything's
about judging you.
There's a way that things needto be done.
You know there's order inchurch and a lot of people let
me say this, a lot of goodpeople make decisions in haste
pressure, image protection.
(20:05):
They do stuff quickly withoutmaybe putting it in perspective,
and it hurts people.
You know, if you're hurt rightnow from church, you know you've
got a story.
Yeah, and everybody has a story.
Do you have a story of churchhurt?
Of course, yeah, yeah, mike, doyou have a story of church hurt
?
Absolutely, I've got a story ofchurch hurt.
(20:25):
But what's the difference?
How is it that you can begin toheal or come back from church
hurt?
What?
I've got a story of church hurt.
But what's the difference?
How is it that you can begin toheal or come back from church
hurt?
What do you?
What do you?
Where do you think you start?
Speaker 2 (20:35):
I think, if at all possible, you go to the person
whether it's a member orleadership you know that hurt
you and try to talk thatsituation out.
Wait a minute.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
You're talking biblical stuffnow.
Hang on just a second.
So you're saying that if I'moffended or hurt, I need to go
to that person and talk to themabout it and not go to my mama?
Yeah, okay, I can go ahead.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
I think that's you know, that's and that's the
thing is, I don't know.
You know, we just don't want todo that Sometimes we don't want
to.
It's easier just to walk awayfrom a situation than to be
confrontational that we feellike, or to bring it up or to.
We don't want to be messy, sowe think it's just better just
to leave the situation or leavethe church, or leave whatever,
(21:14):
or then then to do that.
But sometimes, you know, we canfind out that maybe we there
was a misunderstanding, or youknow, um, nobody checked on me
when, when I was in the hospital.
Well, did they know you're?
They didn't know you were inthe hospital Because I'm the
ladies leader at our church.
Somebody said are we going todo meals for so-and-so that had
surgery?
I said I didn't know she hadsurgery.
(21:34):
What are you even talking about?
But we may find out that therewas something we didn't know.
If we do that sometimes I thinkthat's one of the first things
is just to see if there's anyway possible to to talk it out?
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Yeah, maybe to clear the air.
Ok, because you said it.
Sometimes it's just amisunderstanding.
You ever had that happen beforeyou and I've had that happen.
We've talked, we were talkingabout two separate things and
you thought I was talking aboutsomething I thought was talking
about and all of a sudden, boom,we're like in an argument.
I'm like whoa, hey, hey, hey,whoa, I didn't like that.
What I was saying.
You're like OK, then you know,but sometimes that's that
(22:12):
misunderstanding.
But I think too, in order tostart to heal from church hurt,
is that you have to acknowledgethat you've been hurt.
Our two and a half year oldgranddaughter she has more boo
boos.
I mean, every time she comesshe's got a boo-boo.
Well, she don't mind to tellyou she's got a boo-boo, yeah,
but good, christian folks whoget hurt, they almost wear it as
(22:35):
a badge of honor to suffer insilence or maybe ignore the hurt
or disappointment or regret,because they think it's the
Christian thing to do.
I just need to choke this,choke, choke this down and
pretend I'm not hurt.
Well, your arm's, laying in thefloor, it's been ripped off.
No, no, no, no, my arm's fine,I'm fine.
But you can acknowledge thatyou've been hurt.
(22:57):
Well, I just don't.
I don't think that's the waythings you know.
I just want to show my emotion.
Well, you know what Jesus did.
You remember the story ofLazarus?
Guess what Jesus did whenLazarus died?
He cried.
Guess what happened when Jesuswas in the garden and about to
go to the cross?
He was under duress, he wasstressed out.
(23:21):
So you can acknowledge, if theLord, god Almighty, can
acknowledge that he had emotionand he had some things, you
can't too, and I think that'sone of the things that you have
to acknowledge you've been hurt.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Why do you think people hide that?
Well, I mean, I think, just forthe reasons that you said, that
it just may be easier just topush it down and move past it
and not bring it up and hopingit'll just you know that feeling
will go away.
Sometimes they don't, though.
I think that's when you have toaddress.
It is when you realize you'renot getting over that thing.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Yeah, that makes sense.
I think the other thing too, inorder to heal, not only do you
have to acknowledge you've beenhurt.
The other thing and I like thisand I've been thinking about
this is that you have to changeperspective on who or what hurt
you, that it wasn't actually thechurch itself that hurt you,
that it was someone or a groupof people that hurt you and you
(24:22):
got to assign hurt, anger, blameto that particular person and
not the church itself.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
Well, and even maybe specifically it could have been
that church If that church votedyou out.
Yeah, and there's probablyextenuating circumstances, but
as a whole I mean, let's just behonest, and this is what other
denominations do is what otherdenominations do.
But you know, we know there'sdenominations that if they know
that you're living with somebodythat's not your husband, they
(24:48):
will get together in a businessmeeting and they will decide
that you do not, you're not amember there anymore, and
they're going to, they're goingto vote on sending you a letter.
That happens, it does, ithappens.
So maybe that church as a whole, maybe that church did hurt you
, but that again is not allchurches like it's, you know.
Like it's.
You know, if somebody atMcDonald's hurts me and is rude
(25:13):
to me, mcdonald's did not hurtme.
That person or that location orthat whatever, and that's the
thing is like that may.
Sometimes that's location,specific.
That's not the church as awhole.
It's time for you to find outif they voted you out.
Go somewhere that will love you, right.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Well, and so that that does happen occasionally,
but for the most part, I think alot of times it's usually
specific to somebody.
Yeah, somebody hurt me, and soyou have to assign that blame.
That it was Joe hurt, or it wasStephanie hurt, or it was hurt
from this person at thisparticular church and it's a
weak spot in the church,sometimes Not the church as a
(25:50):
whole.
So when we talk about churchhurt, you need to assign
appropriation to the right thingand the right person.
That it was Tiffany that hurtme, and so I have a problem with
Tiffany, but I don't have aproblem with Pastor Mike, I
don't have a problem with thischurch.
I have a problem with thisperson and you reorientate
(26:11):
yourself and change yourperspective and I think that
that helps.
So, acknowledging changing,maybe, your perspective,
whatever else, what else?
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Yeah, you know, and I don't know if this is really a
good place to put this in, butI'm going to.
Sometimes, though, even withour hurt, we need to realize are
we mad?
Are we just offended?
Are we disappointed to be ableto work through our hurt, and
(26:42):
are we deeply hurt?
You find yourself beingoffended a lot?
Then there is a possibilitythat this you know that it may
it could be you yeah, that maybeyou've got to do a checkup and
find out, like why am I beingoffended so much?
(27:02):
If you're mad a lot, if you getmad over lots of things you know
at church, then we, you domaybe need to do a checkup and
say, ok, like why, why is thisaffecting me this way?
And make sure, going back towhat you said, that you don't
have unrealistic expectations,and and try to develop a little
(27:24):
bit more than we just did, oneon mental toughness, a little
bit mental toughness to whereeverything doesn't hurt you or
offend you at church.
Because you know, I will saytoo, there's a certain point in
time, like if you get offendedor hurt in church a lot and
you've been in church a while,that we, you just got to grow up
a little.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Sometimes it's maturity.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Yeah, you got to, you got to grow up a little, but
then you know, if, if there issomething that that did deeply
hurt you and it's real and it'svalid, then you may need to
create just a little bit ofspace between between you and
the person that you know thatdid it.
Um, you know, and and there's,maybe pastors are going to be
(28:02):
like, oh no, no, stop, I don't.
I don't know about that, but ifyou, if you're going to church
every Sunday morning and ithurts and it's painful and
you're bitter and you'rewhatever, then maybe you need to
, you know, take a beat, go govisit another, another church
for just for a couple of weeksand let yourself, you know, heal
.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Yeah, yeah, and it could be changing locations If
you're, if you're at a churchthat has multiple locations,
maybe you change locationsYou're still going to church,
but change locations You'restill going to church, but you
change locations.
If you're in a small church,it's a little more difficult.
Maybe you do have to have aseason that you have to separate
for a while, because you can'theal if you constantly have the
wound being ripped open and youhave to learn how to work
(28:43):
through that.
And I'm going to say thisEverybody talks about I'm hurt,
I'm hurt.
And I'm going to say thisEverybody, everybody talks about
I'm hurt, I'm hurt, I'm hurt.
But I'm going to go from theministry perspective too.
There are men and women of Godwho have been hurt by their
(29:04):
congregation and we tear themdown and blow them up and expect
them to stand up every Sundayand minister to us and take our
barbs and take our beatings.
And I'm going to be honest withyou there are men, good men,
women of God that have been hurttoo.
And if you're that person, youknow I get it.
Maybe the church pays you, butmaybe it's time for you to step
down and go get healed somewheretoo.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Well, you know, I want to say this because I think
there's zero chance this lady'slistening.
Well, you know, I want to saythis because I think there's
zero chance this lady islistening.
But you know, I was somewherejust very recently and a lady
spoke up in the middle of asituation and said something
(29:46):
no-transcript but you know.
Then talking to that person,you know the pastor later really
affected him and it was sohurtful and mean and you know we
don't think about you know, butthey have so many situations
like that sometimes.
But they have to go home, andyou know, but then they've got
to go and act like everything'sokay and still treat you and
(30:08):
your family like everything isokay.
And you know, take on theburden of somebody who's really
got a situation here that needsthem in the middle of the night,
and all these things that arestill carrying around some of
those, you know hurts A hundredpercent.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Well, and I've told you, I was raised in a small,
small denominational church, andcan I tell you the number of
times my mama went home cryingbecause people were mean to her
or mean to my dad Because theywere pastoring, because they
were pastoring the church andjust mean.
And so you have to work throughand listen.
You may have to go sit downSometimes and I'm going to say
(30:48):
this from a pastor perspective.
Sometimes you need to go setyour butt down.
Okay, I get it, man, you wantto preach the word, you want to
pass.
Sometimes you need to sit downand heal and not serve and not
get all back up involved inthings again.
And so you know what I need aseason to heal too, and I think
that's important.
The only way you do that iscreating some space.
(31:14):
I think you also have to seeksome godly counsel.
Listen, you don't live in aworld by yourself.
You need to go find people youcan trust and that you can talk
this thing out with and, youknow, work through it with, and
I think that that's important.
But to finish up here and we canfinish up with the last couple
of points here is thatforgiveness is the bedrock of
the Christian faith.
It is.
(31:36):
I understand you're hurt and Idon't.
I do not belittle that.
I know that there is a lot ofhurt and there's a lot of real
hurt, but forgiveness is thebedrock of the Christian faith
and Jesus wants us to forgivepeople who hurt us.
He does and that is the hardestpart it really is.
He does and that is the hardestpart it really is.
Forgiveness is the hardest partbecause when you see that
person, you remember, but youmay never forget.
(31:56):
But you can choose forgivenessover and over and, over and over
.
And how do you work throughthat?
Speaker 2 (32:03):
I mean, you've been that I think you have to make a
choice to forgive, even when youdon't feel it and you don't see
it and your heart's not in it.
Yet I remember talking tosomebody and they had a terrible
, terrible situation and I saidevery time you think about this
because your mind is trying toplay it back to you, you're
going to have to say I choose toforgive, I choose to forgive
and eventually you're going tofind the more that you pray
about it and you say that outloud and you shut your mind down
(32:26):
when it's replaying the badthing that happened.
You know that, that you areforgiving, because I believe a
hundred percent that forgivingsomebody is for you.
It, um, I believewholeheartedly that you do
become mentally ill, physicallyill, all those things, when
you're holding on tounforgiveness, and I think that
(32:47):
you can get in your own waysometimes of what God maybe has
for you if you cannot move intoa place of forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Yeah, I think so too.
And forgiveness, I'm tellingyou, it's the bedrock of this
whole thing.
The only way you heal fromchurch hurt is forgiveness.
You can do steps one, two,three, four, five, but if you
skip forgiveness, you will notheal.
You will always have somebitterness, you'll always have
some hurt, you'll always havesome anger.
But forgiveness is the way, itis the only way.
(33:17):
And I get it.
Hey guys, if you're out therelistening and you've been hurt
at church, if people have hurtyou, man, we understand, like we
hear you, and I read all thecomments and I read and listen
to things and see things, but itdoes not represent the church
as a whole.
Okay, there are people who makemistakes, there are people who
(33:39):
they're evil people.
Okay, even people who hurt youon purpose, but not everybody's
out to get you.
Not everybody hurts you onpurpose, and God wants you to
learn how to forgive, and Ithink that's an important facet.
It is the crux of what we'retalking about here.
Forgiveness is the way, and so Idon't know what it looks like
(34:01):
for you.
I don't know where you aretoday, I don't know what you're
facing, I don't know what theydid to you, but I can tell you
that there's a God in heaventhat loves you.
There's a God in heaven wholoves his church and he wants
you to be a part of his life andbe a part of things.
And there is a way to come backfrom church.
(34:22):
Hurt, but it takes lots ofperseverance, lots of being
honest, lots of making thingsright on both sides and figuring
out how to work through it.
Any final words?
Speaker 2 (34:36):
No, I think those are some good things.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Sounds good.
That's it.
That's a heavy subject and itain't always fun to end on that,
but I can tell you, god stillloves you, no matter where you
are, no matter what's happened.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
I do have a final thought yeah, let's go.
If you've become unchurchedbecause of that, I would just
say try again, because you maybe missing friendships,
relationships and things thatyou don't even know.
You know that you're missing byby, by staying in that place of
church hurt and just shutting,shutting it off off.
That that's it and I'll nevergo back.
And I see that when you put outa TikTok asking about church
(35:12):
hurt stories there was so muchof.
I will never go back.
That was the predominant themeand I just encourage you to try
again.
It's okay to sit on the backand observe and to whatever, but
to try again because everychurch is not like the one that
hurt you.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
That's good word, that's goodword.
Hey, thank you so much forlistening this morning.
We encourage you to get in theflow of life, find people who
are going the direction you wantto go and hop in there with
them and you'll change yourwhole life.
Thank you for listening.
Have a great morning.
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