March 31, 2022 • 57 mins
As a transgender, Black and queer woman - being the first is nothing new for Raquel Willis. As an award-winning writer, activist, media strategist and leader in this current human rights movement transforming the world, Ms. Willis has always harnessed the power of storytelling to share her truth and elevate the voices others. In this first episode of a two-part series, we start with her beginnings of growing up Black and Catholic in the Deep South, we learn about her struggles with self-identity and discovery at a time when there were minimal (and oftentimes harmful) representations of queer and trans people in media and entertainment, and how her outrage at the lack of awareness and action for the safety and security of Black and Brown trans people galvanized her activism.
In this first episode we cover:
- The importance of finding community no matter where you are and the powerful impact that can have on your growth journey
- The triumphs and challenges in being “the first” and breaking so many barriers before the age of 30
- Why living your truth and standing in your power sometimes means taking a leap of faith, even when the odds are against you
Raquel Willis is an award-winning writer, activist, and media strategist dedicated to Black transgender liberation. She has held groundbreaking roles throughout her career including director of communications for Ms. Foundation for Women, executive editor of Out magazine, and national organizer for Transgender Law Center.
As a thought leader on gender, race and intersectionality, her writing has been published in numerous publications, books and anthologies. Her writing has been published in Black Futures by Kimberly Drew and Jenna Wortham, Bulgari Magnifica: The Power Women Hold edited by Tina Leung, The Echoing Ida Collection edited by Kemi Alabi, Cynthia R. Greenlee, and Janna A. Zinzi, and Four Hundred Souls: A Community History of African America, 1619-2019 edited by Ibram X. Kendi and Keisha Blain. She has also written for Essence, Bitch, VICE, Buzzfeed, The Cut, and Vogue. During her time at Out, she published the GLAAD Media Award-winning “Trans Obituaries Project.” In 2023, she will release her debut memoir, I Believe in Our Power, about her coming of identity and activism with St. Martin’s Press.
In 2020, Raquel was named to the Forbes 30 Under 30 and The Root 100 for a second time. In 2021, Raquel was named to the University of Georgia’s 40 Under 40 and Fast Company’s Queer 50.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica Hartley (00:01):
Welcome to the hustle grind shine and reignite
podcast. I'm your host, JessicaHartley. Join me on another
journey with amazing andtalented professionals of color.
We laugh and cry and take notes.
But most of all be inspired allof this and more on our next
episode of hustle, grind, shine.
(00:24):
And let's go
Raquel Willis (00:33):
Hello and welcome to another episode of hustle
grind, shine and reignite. I amyour host, Jessica Hartley, and
it is a pleasure to welcome youto our new show. I am so excited
to welcome our guests today. Hername is Raquel Willis. She's an
activist and advocate, a writerand author to be and also a
(00:57):
media strategist. She's also inall transparency. Amazing. And
my sister. So Raquel, I'm soexcited to welcome you to the
show. Welcome saysthank you. I'm so excited to be
on.
Oh yes, I'm so excited. And Iknow a lot of your journey and
your story, as a woman, as atrans woman, as a journalist, as
(01:21):
a writer, as a model all ofthese things that you are, which
is just so amazing. I'm so soproud of you. But I'm excited to
share a little bit of yourcareer journey and your story
with our audience and ourlisteners. So I'm going to take
me back, I'm going to take youback back into time. And let's
(01:41):
go all the way back to childhoodand talk a little bit about what
it was like growing up in theWillis household. And what did
you want to be? And do you seesome elements of what you wanted
to be as a kid reflected in someof the things that you do now?
Yeah. Oh, Lord, here we go.
traveling back to Augusta,Georgia. I think growing up in
(02:07):
our household, we knew that wehad to do something once. From
high school. Well, we knewcollege that was just a given we
had to doit. And there was no question no
question, none.
You know, it's a blessing. Youknow, I don't say that. It's
like it's a burden. i It'sdefinitely a blessing to have
(02:29):
folks. And not just ourimmediate family, but our
extended family, ourgrandparents, our audience,
folks pushing us to be like,eventually having careers that
could sustain us and be self sowe can be self sufficient.
Obviously, well, obvious to you,I guess I think the initial kind
of thoughts around a career wasbeing a pediatrician that was
(02:52):
kind of instilled in me as a kidby our grandmother, grandma.
Wrestlerest in power. Girl I knew as a
force to be reckoned with. Yes,she was for
sure. And so that was kind ofbig. And I mean, I don't know,
really, where that concept of acareer for me came from for her.
(03:17):
But it was just drilled into me.
That was what you were going tobe early on, you know, you'd say
baby doctor, because what fiveyear old? Thank you.
I remember that. I don't knowwhere that came from. I always,
you know, our grandmother was apharmacist assistant when she
was a physician's assistant andalso a pharmacy technician. And
(03:40):
yeah, I don't know, I justremember that. Was it like you
taking care of kids and babies?
And yes, being a baby doctor, Iremember us talking about that.
But I don't know where that camefrom. And I mean, it was also
one of those things that wasjust like, it sticks, right? I
mean, the same was like, youknow, nicknames and things like
that stick when you're a child,I felt like you being a
pediatrician and a baby doctorwas just
(04:03):
there. It was just there. And,you know, I think that there are
a few different things. I mean,I was the youngest, I think, you
know, and and I also there aresuch a gap between us and and
so, this kind of idea of like,well, you do these things that
we have made up in our minds foryou these expectations. We've
(04:25):
made up in our minds for you,because you're the youngest
person to be in the Munch aftera while and so yeah, you know,
all those ideas of like, be adoctor be a lawyer. I think one
of the doctor ideas just wasattached to me. Yeah. And I do
remember having a sense of like,well, I do like the idea. There
(04:47):
was like something very nobleabout doing something that would
help other folks. Right. And soI definitely latched on to that
we grew up in a family wherevolunteers What's so important?
Yeah, that's those tenants ofstewardship from church are kind
of echoed in our head. And Ithink even just the the kind of
(05:10):
smaller town, or at least mediumsized town idea of like
community was important for us.
And so I really think thateventually that laid the
foundation for my activism work.
But of course, like they're alsohad some kind of like a
practical idea. And I think whenI got to high school, I was
(05:33):
figuring out myself around thattime, I came out as gay at that
point, because I had no ideaabout what it meant to be trans
or gender identity and thedifference between that and
sexual orientation. But I founda yearbook staff. And so I was a
yearbook nerd, you know, goingaround taking pictures of
(05:55):
classmates all all the time, Istill have so many of those
photos. And you know, peoplewould be like, go away, like,
why, like, whatever. But then ofcourse, they'd like ham it up,
because this was like, rightbefore we all had like smart
phones. And so, you know, peoplewere hammered up for the camera,
(06:16):
because it was still cool to beasked, you know, to
have your phone to take apicture. Yeah, that was a really
big deal. Yeah.
So I remember journalism as aword came into my lexicon
because I, obviously theyearbook? Well, I mean, maybe
not obvious to folks. Butyearbook class, was a class. So
(06:37):
one thing that we worked on out,outside, I mean, we did work on
it outside of school, but itwasn't,
but it wasn't like a club afterschool that you just kind of
join, it was actually built intothe curriculum. And I mean, I
think it's probably important toshare here. I mean, you didn't
go to just the old regular highschool, right, having what is
ever regular. You know, I wentto a, what we call magnet
(07:00):
schools here in the south, andin Georgia, I went to a magnet
school and you went to theschool that I went to, and I
obviously went on to a differentschool, but you went to a fine
arts, you know, an art schoolthat allowed for all of those
things. So that was also atremendous opportunity as well.
Yeah,you know, and I think when I was
thinking about going to thatschool, I think part of it for
me was I needed a safe haven asa queer kid because I have been
(07:25):
bullied in school for a longtime. And that was something
that I actually was very goodat, compartmentalizing and like
keeping out of the purview ofour family. Like none of our
family. You know, Mom, Dad, youare broke. I had no idea.
(07:45):
I knew I was bullying. I thinkfor me, it was like I had to
save face. I didn't want anyoneelse to know that I was being
bullied at school, because thenI knew the inevitable idea would
be okay, well, what are youdoing? What what are you going
to know different? Because wedon't see it? We don't
understand. So you got to bedoing something different
(08:06):
outside of the house. You know,it doesn't have to make sense.
Because at that time, you know,our language culturally and
socially about queerness wasstill so devolved. And even as a
queer person, it was. So yes, Imean, your book was my safe
haven. And I loved it, but onthe door to the yearbook class
(08:29):
and said journalism, it doesn'tentirely make sense, but that's
how they coded the course. And Iwas like, Okay, well, I guess
maybe journalism makes sense asa major. And maybe working in
publications makes sense,because I did watch like ugly
baddie did watch like The DevilWears Prada. I remember those
(08:49):
characters. And I obviouslydidn't want to be like a villain
like a Miranda Priestly or aWillamina Slater from those
shows or respectively. But I didlove the idea that like, they
were some badass women. And Iknow in my head, I was like,
that's cool. I love writing. Ialso had a secret life wanting
(09:13):
to be a songwriter. I don'tthink I knew that either. But I
started my writing in writingsongs. I still have like, some
of the notebooks that are liketattered now, but it was almost
like poetry. So at least likefamily knew I wrote poetry to an
(09:33):
extent because I write like,poems and stuff during like
holidays or family reunions. ButI you know, and I was nurtured
in that to an extent like, Iwould create things for school,
but there was never kind of thisidea of oh, you can be a writer.
(09:54):
It but it was something that wasnurtured to an extent like and
people would notice Yeah, Iwould have to do recitations for
different things. And, and Ialways did well in language arts
classes, and grammar classes andstuff like that. So I think that
paves the way for me toeventually study journalism.
And how did you make thedecision to? You're like, Okay,
(10:16):
your book journalism,pediatrician is now out the
door, med school that have a,how did you make the decision
about where you were going to goto school? And I guess finding a
place that was going to be thatplace that was going to be your
home for, you know, three orfour years? Yeah, well,
(10:36):
the interesting thing was when Iwas choosing schools and my
college search, it really wasn'tas much about this specific
program or that specificprogram. I mean, to an extent, I
narrowed the list down ofschools that did have journalism
programs that were like solid,so I only applied to schools
(10:59):
that had solid journalismprograms. But I also applied
based on location because I feltlike the only way for me to to
start to kind of live fully inmy queerness was to move out of
the south to move out ofGeorgia, and particularly to a
bigger metropolitan area. And sothe only one in that lineup that
(11:23):
I really knew I was New York, Imean, Marley, because pretty
much all the media of like, the90s, for the most part,
everything was based in NewYork. I mean, you think about
like the Cosby Show, we're notgoing down that road, based in
New York. Based in New York, youknow, yeah, the shows are like
(11:46):
San Francisco. But the idea ofmoving to the west at that point
was so foreign. So yeah, so Ireally wanted to go to New York
University. You know, this,and I do I know, I was there. I
mean, I was living in New Yorkat the time, right? So we can
say, what would your life hadbeen? Like? Had you been able to
go to NYU, but here you are. Soyou know, in spite of all of
(12:12):
those things, but I mean, youknow, the same thing that I
struggled with when I went toschool is, with all the
privilege that we had growingup, and we had a lot of it in
nurturing and capable parents. Imean, I couldn't afford NYU. I
couldn't afford, you know, wewent to Purdue couldn't I mean,
that loans? Still Still I thinkI finally just paid off my
(12:34):
undergraduate. Right. So yeah,it was tough, tough to make
those decisions. But yeah,I mean, and to that point, I
mean, I obviously was veryinspired by you having gone off
and left Georgia. You know, Iwas like, Okay, well, that is
(12:55):
possible. It is possible. It wasI had this kind of idea, I
think, within all of thatprivilege, so all I had to do
was name it, and claim it. Andthen it would happen as almost
everything else in life for meup until that point had, right.
Yeah, but that didn't happen.
(13:17):
And so literally, my last choicewas the University of Georgia.
So it was in the lineup. I thinksomeone had to I don't even
maybe it was you. But someonehad said, Well, you should at
least apply to at least oneschool. That probably was me,
because that'swhat I mean, I cut from the same
cloth. I was like, I gotta getout. And so I applied to one
(13:39):
school in Georgia. I was like,I'm not going to UGA amazing
school, great, great things. Andall the ways mom got her a tour
heard or at least he had herdoctorate from UGA. So we were
familiar with University ofGeorgia familiar with Athens and
all of that. I didn't apply toUGA. I was like, I don't want to
(14:00):
go here. And I applied to ClarkAtlanta, wanted, I was like,
Well, let me throw an HBCU inthe mix, and apply to Clark
Atlanta. But you know, very muchlike you wanted to needed to get
out and wanted to get out. Ialso think about and this
crossed my mind. I feel likewe've talked about this at some
point, though, that because Iwas the first because I got out
(14:20):
that impacted you not being ableto get out because they had
paid. I had my loans, but thenthey were still paying parental
loans. And so I also think thatthat again, you know, life turns
out to be what it is, and wewill keep going on this amazing
journey that you have. But Idefinitely feel and no, I mean,
(14:42):
I can only imagine that myexperience and me getting out
which was great. And I did sortof pave the way for us to leave
if you want it to leave, but thefinancial impact of what that
was and we didn't know what wewere doing at the time
subsidized loans, unsubsidizedloans. I got to Small
scholarship, but that had animpact and a dent on our parents
(15:03):
finances, too. So I can imaginethey were still paying those
loans. And they were like no waywe can layer on a whole nother
set of loans for that. Sowell, you know, I think also in
hindsight, and just knowing morepolitically when I graduated
from high school in 2009, and itliterally was in the midst of
the fallout from the economicrecession. So, which is
(15:26):
something we definitely didn'trealize I
didn't even think about that.
When you say it like that. I'mlike, Oh, my goodness, yes.
Because I was 2008, I wasworking at an agency, the bottom
fell out, a bunch of people gotlaid off living in New York, and
that was definitely a toughtime. need to think about that.
(15:48):
Yeah. So I mean, I knew thatlike, well, I know now at least,
right, that impacted things. Andthen of course, that wouldn't
impact the industry that mypeers, and I wouldn't hear it in
journalism, because a few yearsdown the road, you know, I'm
coming into the start of acareer where there aren't as
(16:12):
many resources, there aren't asmany opportunities, people
aren't taking as many chances interms of hiring. I mean, you
literally had somebody in NewYork, right. And because I
wasn't in New York, it limitedmy opportunity, I almost would
not have even been able to workin journalism, if I hadn't had
(16:32):
some type of, you know,persistence or stubbornness to
say, No, I'm going to use thisdegree, I just spent all these
years studying, and actuallyfigure out what was going to
happen. So I had to also take onsome flexibility. But I think
the other part of this too, wasthat storytelling was shifting
(16:54):
the way that people wereconnecting with shifting,
because social media. Mm hmm.
Loaded while I was in college,so it's started just before with
like, in high school, you know,I was a part of that, that
initial group of folks and onMySpace, right. And as Facebook
kind of built out into somethingthat wasn't just in a
(17:19):
northeastern college sphere,right. But I was taking courses
in journalism, that these were,oh, geez, of course, who had all
of these kinds of bona fides, interms of journalism, but they
weren't taking the digital spaceseriously, still, even after
(17:40):
like, a decade of lead time, youknow, we're going into the
2010s. And it's still, we'regoing to teach you all of these
kind of outdated ways ofcommunicating that don't take
into consideration that in a fewyears, you'll probably have to
(18:01):
get your start writing frigginBuzzFeed, listicles, to even
start making a splash becausethose traditional jobs weren't
really there. Now, I was lucky.
So my first job out of college,I worked at the Watson Tribune,
a newspaper and was in County,Georgia. So I'm still in Georgia
(18:24):
at this point. But I will say,you know, even though it wasn't
where I wanted to be, it was atraditional newspaper reporter
job. And so there were so manythings that I was able to kind
of work out skills wise, andstorytelling, and listening for
(18:45):
the real story, in thatexperience. So I loved the work
of gathering these stories,talking to unlikely characters
in this kind of local context.
And having this kind of missionto document this place. And take
this place seriously. That maybe for most of the folks who
(19:07):
live there. They never felt likeit was taken seriously because
that, you know, that's an wound,or a trauma in a sense, not in
like a nomadic way. But that Ithink a lot of folks who don't
grow up in metropolitan bubblescarry around, we know what it
feels like to not feel like ourstories matter, because of Nord
(19:30):
in New York, if you're not inthe big city in your state. And
then if you're not having thiskind of traditional,
professional trajectory, yourstory often is not considered
relevant or sexy enough for themasses to think about and
consume. So I think, in someways, being forced by so many
(19:54):
different forces to stay put andfor a lot longer to cook low,
longer and slow cooker, Ilove bacon bacon.
It, it solidified the fact that,to me, actually the most
important stories are not theones that happen in these kind
(20:18):
of big metropolitan places. Andwe've seen that now especially
politically right. Part of thereason we're so divided is
because everyone I mean, I writlarge on both sides feels like
their stories are not seen asimportant, right? Or the stories
that are marginalized are notoften censored enough. Or when
(20:42):
they are censored. The cornersare cut off, they're diluted
down to fit and to these kind ofold, you know, Zeitgeist The
wave of talking about them. Ihope that makes sense.
No, that makes sense. I mean,they're it, they're all sort of
repackaged into, I mean, a dyingframework, a dying narrative,
(21:06):
that is still like, even asprogressive as a lot of things
have gotten are still wrapped inpatriarchy, still wrapped in
racism still wrapped inhomophobia and queer folk. I
mean, they're still all througha lens, right? Because even when
we think about new narratives,and storytelling and messaging,
(21:26):
that we're trying to tell,oftentimes, when I, you know,
coming from marketing in theworld of advertising, we are
still trying to reframe newthings in a way that people can
understand them, which means youare changing, versus just
presenting it the way it is. Imean, that's why, you know, when
you think about storytelling,and media, and movies and TV,
(21:49):
it's like, okay, well, I'm nottrying to translate my story for
you, I want you to understand mystory as it needs to be told. So
that resonates a lot with me. Sotalk to me about the jump the
leap from Walton, and smalltown, Georgia. So you I mean,
you went from Augusta, to Athensto really, really small town,
(22:13):
Georgia. And then that was Imean, to your point, I think a
bit of a catalyst for you.
Yeah, right. I mean, there wasan ongoing tension as well,
because, you know, I had thatfirst job. But I also went into
the closet. So I was not out toin general to folks as being
(22:38):
trans or queer, in that firstjob, because I honestly did not
believe I would be hired if Iwas that candid, and authentic,
or that I would be able to keepmy job being an openly trans
queer woman. And so that wasweird. So there's the tension of
(22:58):
having less college wherevirtually everyone I went to
school with knew that I wastrans because they had witnessed
the transition throughout, atleast socially, and
aesthetically, through mycollege years. And then now
within this job that wasliterally in a town that was
like, several miles away, noteven that far, but it was its
(23:22):
own little enclave, when therewasn't enough of a distance that
I could be stealth, which iswhen you're not out as being
trans. And that was the dream. Imean, almost 10 years ago, you
know, the holy grail for a lotof trans people was, if you are
blessed enough to start yourtransition early enough, and
(23:44):
pass so to speak, and that youcan kind of move through the
world undetected as a transperson, like people wouldn't
think that you are, then thatwas the route for survival. And
now that felt like the only wayI would ever even have a chance
to have a career. So I wasthere. And it started to be
(24:05):
difficult being stealth, but itstill just felt like something I
had to do. But I still wanted toget out of this space because I
at least wanted differentcommunity. So I didn't have a
lot of black queer folks in mylife just by the virtue of the
(24:25):
area that I was in being veryconservative, but also being
very quiet. So most of thepeople I knew at that time were
white trans people. And so Istarted to look for new job
because I just knew I needed togo to Atlanta. Now the other
piece of it though, I will saythe final straw for me and
(24:46):
deciding to move to Atlanta andtry and find a new job was I had
been given this project to startthe first like local Women's
mag, it was still basically likea newspaper, mag kind of
(25:06):
situation, it wasn't gonna belike super long or super glossy.
But it was gonna be like aquarterly publication that was
elevating women's voices. And Iwould be like, essentially the
the lead on it like to edit allthese different things I could
curate and choose the content,the contributors, all of that,
you know, that hearken back tothe yearbook experience, it gave
(25:30):
me a little bit of that, like,Okay, this is something I could
live for a little bit in mycareer. And then, I think,
within the week of, we're aboutto have our casting call for the
first cover of it. I was gonnabe called flights.
(25:51):
I love it. And it wasso cute. Like, I was so excited.
I was like, outside of theweekly cop opinion columns that
I got to write work, I would tryand insert my social justice
leanings. And sometimes I gothate mail for it. To be honest,
I was really excited about thatwe got a brand new publisher. So
out with this kind of, you know,very stereotypical white and
(26:15):
blonde lady who never saw it forme until this project came on
her radar. And she was like, Oh,you're perfect for it. This is
gonna be great. And then it waslike, Oh, I'm a real person in
the room. Because let's be real,we know how some of these white
women in the professional spacecan be where, you know, they
know you're there. But it's likea weird, like, they see you as
(26:37):
competition. And also they don'tsee you as anything, as all
Yeah. And so there was thatinvisible tension. But at least
there was at that point, wecould connect on like, oh,
womanhood, whatever, like, let,we're doing it for the girls.
She was out. And then we got inthis whites, this straight man
(26:59):
who was very stereotypicallymasculine, he basically scrapped
the entire magazine project,wow, and use the energy around
that to be FIP sports reporting.
(27:19):
So it was kind of like,it was like a TV show. I was
gonna say, it's just like a TVshow or movie just like, Okay,
we're doing that now. Wow. And Iwill say, you know,
I really appreciated that myfirst boss, so the woman was the
publisher, but my immediate bosswas my editor, the editor of the
(27:42):
team. And I will say, you know,he was very supportive of me. I
mean, obviously, I wasn't outbut he, he knew that I was like,
you know, this little liberalgirl who just graduated from
college and bright eyed, like,has all these kind of
(28:03):
stereotypically like, young ideaof pushing the envelope, and he
supported it as much as hecould. And also cautioned me, he
was like, you know, you writethis, you write that you're
going to get this. Our audiencesleans conservative, like, he was
very candid about those things.
But in general, he did incensure me. So I have to say
(28:24):
that, like, I was lucky in thatfirst job when I was learning
those skills that to an extenthe was very supportive. But I
had to get out of there. I waslike, Okay, I don't want to stay
any longer. I have been therefor over a year at this point.
And I wasn't making any money.
(28:44):
To be clear as a newspaperreporter in this small town.
Like Isaid, that's why I didn't go
into I mean, that's why I didn'tI mean, I,
yeah, yeah. So I got a new jobat this company called
HowStuffWorks. It now has apodcast empire. But wow. And
(29:07):
a lot of people don't rememberlike it was, was Wikipedia
around even though I mean, maybeso but it was like, it was the
step by step like house stuff,where it's just I did while
you're taking me back. It waslike,
you know, you had those sitesthat were Yeah, essentially like
a Wikipedia in a sense. It was alittle bit more editorial. But
(29:29):
it was essentially like, we'regoing to break down these
different things, you know,whatever you could think of. So
they had articles about it. Soit was very Wikipedia. Like it
was very, like about.com. Thatwas a thing. I know, it probably
still is a thing, but you know,so I went there, but I was not
(29:50):
writing. So I was actuallyproducing content in this job.
That's how much I wanted to getout of that environment. I chose
a job Where I was a digitalpublisher was the role but
essentially, I was doing likeSEO optimization, and some
editing some light editing. Butit was it less, in some ways
(30:15):
less fulfilling job.
And it's probably more more likethat content management. Yep.
type of role versus to yourpoint that the content creation
piece was where you shine andthrive, right?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that andthat felt fulfilling this felt
like I was, you know, just thepeg in the festival,
(30:37):
essentially, it wasn't for lackof trying to put myself out
there. I mean, I wrote, I thinkI wrote at least one or two
articles. I was a guest on someof the pre existing podcasts.
But of course, that didn'thappen until after I came out.
So within like, a month or so ofbeing in this new role, because
(31:02):
I had kind of come to that job.
I was like, Okay, well, I'm notgoing to have these hard and
fast rules about staying in thecloset, like if the opportunity
arose, and I had to come out, Iwill just take the leap, because
I didn't want to feel like I hadto hide who I was, or was this
led me just lie by omission,essential or hide by omission.
(31:23):
And you're using the word hide,and I want people to understand
that this is literally aboutsafety and security. It is not
about purposeful deception toget over it is about safety, and
survival. Right. Yeah. I mean,you know, it's so interesting to
think even for me, but this was2014. So what that was seven
(31:45):
years ago about in this timeframe, so much has shifted
around the concept of transfolks, you know, like, it's not
easy by any means. I thinkactually, in some ways, it's
become even more difficult to beopenly trans for a lot of
(32:06):
people. But at this time, mostfolks really had no
understanding about transpeople. You know, like it was, I
mean, literally, you would tellsomeone, and it was almost like,
they look at you like you're analien, like, at least now,
right? They still might do alittle bit of that, but it's not
(32:30):
as foreign. I have an idea howmany strides invisibility. Now
the other thing too, is I'm only30. And the thing is, is that
people have this idea that I ama part of a group of folks who
have trans folks who kind ofcame into ourselves within this
(32:51):
visibility era, but honestly, Ididn't like the the bulk of my
early transition in collegehappened just before the
visibility wave started.
Literally the week that I tookmy first interviews for a job
(33:12):
after graduating from undergradwas the week that oranges and
new black premiered. Which Wowobviously featured Laverne Cox.
So that which is considered thestart of this visibility era.
Like if you're gonna think ofany particular star is Laverne
(33:34):
Cox starring in Orange is theNew Black. And then that week as
well, was when the GeorgeZimmerman trial and so that is
considered by the creators ofBlack Lives Matter as like an
inciting incident for the startof the Black Lives Matter
(33:54):
movement. So as I was cominginto my professional life, the
terrain was shifting on so manydifferent fronts, for me,
identity wise, and the onlyreason I have all of this
awareness now is because I'mworking on a memoir, and I've
had to work to kind of figureout okay, what is my origin
(34:16):
story as an actor, right. So andso that's wild to think about,
but I literallywithin the same sort of time
frame so it's, it's interestingto be where I am as I'm 12 years
older than you and experience itfrom a you know, a different
vantage point also being aparent, but just experiencing it
in that way. And in theconnection of those things. And
(34:43):
what the connection of though,you know, because for me, I
wouldn't have connected theGeorge Zimmerman thing which
very much was poignant for us asblack Americans, but like I
wouldn't have connected thatwith the debut of Orange is the
New Black and Laverne Cox butobviously, those things coming
together for someone like youand others in the community.
(35:04):
Wow. I mean, those are prettypowerful things to also have the
balance, the excitement, andhave the visibility of being
seen or just having more peoplesee the humanity in the
realness, but also, that nomatter what of all those things
are happening, and that aregreat and awesome and wonderful,
(35:27):
still living in a system and ina society that doesn't see any
of us as human in a lot of ways,right. So wow, powerful
connections there.
Yeah, I mean, you know, I thinkthe other thing, I've also
realized, as I'm kind of workingon this book is, within a month
(35:51):
of even those incidents, was thefirst case that I I really was
kind of shook and paid deeperattention to around the black
trans woman being murdered,named Alon nettles. So that
happened in New York, I guess itwas August 2013. This was also
(36:12):
just before I got this job atthis newspaper. So I was
becoming very aware of theconsequences of being known as
trans in everyday life. And thiswas a kind of isolated education
I was happening because when Iwas in college, I didn't know
(36:33):
another black trans woman inperson. I didn't know another
black trans woman until I movedto Atlanta and found black trans
community. I knew why transpeople, I knew a few trans folks
of color, mostly trans masculinepeople. But I didn't know
another openly black transperson in my everyday life. Like
(36:56):
I knew people who like the JanetMock our initial article that
kind of told her story had comeout on Marie Claire, when I was
still in college, obviouslystarted to know about Laverne
Cox, there was an athlete namedchi alums who I hadn't met who
came to give a talk. There wasCourtney Ziegler, who was a
(37:18):
black trans masculine scholar,who had come to speak at our
college, but in everyday life, Ididn't know another black trans
person. So there were there wereso much distance as well. So
yeah, so when I was in Atlanta,and the inciting incident for me
to come out, at the second job,was the suicide of a young trans
(37:44):
girl named Lila Alcorn. And soshe had published her suicide
letter to post on Tumblr aftercommitting the act. This was
December 2014. And I rememberreading that story. I remember
reading her suicide ladder, andessentially baked into it was a
(38:07):
call to action. So she had beenostracized by peers, by school
officials, and by theirreligious family, and had
actually been isolated, andtried, you know, they tried to
do essentially, like aconversion therapy experience on
(38:27):
her, and it drove her to commitsuicide. And so in the suicide
letter, one of the lines thatstuck out to me was fake
Society, please, huh. And I tookthat personally, because I was
like, you know, Well, damn, youknow, I am contributing to this
(38:49):
idea that we have to stay in thecloset and silent about who we
are. And I consider myself astoryteller, a writer,
journalist, all these differentthings. And yeah, you know, I'm
kind of writing about theseissues. Tangentially. But I'm
not even being authentic aboutwho I am. So that pushed me I
(39:14):
was just overcome with emotion.
And I have stacked I was like, Idon't know what to do. But I
stacked up these books on mylittle rinky dink coffee table,
and put my laptop top up and Iwas like, I'm gonna make a video
and maybe I'll post it onYouTube. I do this video, and I
really didn't have a desire tobe a YouTube tuber or anything
(39:40):
like that. But I posted thevideo where I'm like, ugly
crying, but essentially saying,you know, like, I'm a black
trans woman in this society. Andthis is not right. We've got to
do better by trans youth. Theydeserve to be who they are. And
I think I got about like 4000views which I mean, it was like,
Oh, God,like back then that was a big
(40:01):
deal. And I don't even know. Didyou? I don't think I knew that
you did you share the video withus at the time. I don't think
you did share it with family. Ijust posted it, I think on my
Facebook. Right? And and onTwitter. But I, yeah, I wasn't.
(40:22):
But I wasn't necessarily tryingto be seen like it was very
different time. Like now so muchof what we do on social media is
about getting the eyes on thelooks. And then it genuinely was
not about being visible or beingseen in that way. It was about
(40:44):
being visible to an extent oflike, adding a story and a face
here, and also acknowledgingthat this had affected me. I
couldn't obviously say that toLeila, but I could at least like
express it in some way. And itgot some views. And then next
(41:06):
thing I knew, like, I think thenext day or so, the BBC
contacted me and was like, Well,will you do an interview? We saw
your video, oh, wait.
Jessica Hartley (41:18):
Maybe see cross cross support? Yes. Really?
Raquel Willis (41:27):
Why that happens.
I was like, I'm not even out atwork out at work. You know, that
was how naive my or maybe noteven naive, because I had an
understanding, obviously, of howsocial media work and that
anyone could access it.
But I but still back then itwasn't everything wasn't so
(41:48):
interconnected. I wasn't like,everyone now has a brand and a
persona. Even if that mediaisn't their work. Then it was
like, well, the folks who I'mfriends with on Facebook weren't
necessarily I like I wasn'tfriends with folks that I worked
with, or any of that. Yeah,there was a lot of separation of
(42:11):
church and state, a lot ofseparation of family, friends,
all that kind of stuff backthen. Yeah. And so the BBC
called so that was, that was thefirst right like that was really
the first big media opportunity,also for you to not be
representing other people'sstory, but to be representing
(42:34):
your story in your narrative tothe world. Right.
So that that would really Iwould say, be kind of the
activist origin story. But I wasnot so into myself that, you
know, that I thought of myselfas an activist off of that. But
(42:55):
I remember doing that. And thenactually, I had a conversation
with you. I was like, Oh, theBBC reached out. And you were
like, well, what do you say? AndI was like, Yeah, I said, I
would do it. I mean, I'mnervous. Then you're like, Okay,
so when are you coming out atwork? And then I was like, I
said that to you? I was like, doI have to? And you're like,
(43:21):
Yeah, you work. AndI did. Yeah. Shout out to all
the big sisters of big siblingsgiving sage advice.
And also a sister who has workedin media marketing and
everything, too. So I did, Icame out of work. And I mean, I
(43:45):
was nervous, for sure. But itwas a much more open
environment. I mean, it was alsoAtlanta, you know, so my
immediate boss was like, That'sgreat. I'll just have to talk to
our big big boss. She talked tohim. He was like a sad, dude. So
I was like, oh, Lord, but heactually was even seemingly even
(44:09):
more supportive than her.
Because he was from the PacificNorthwest, you know, so I think
that played a role in it, butthey were supportive. They were
like, do it, you should do it ifyou want to do it. And then I
did it. And it was called Worldhave your say, and I was on BBC,
you know, so people heard it.
(44:29):
And that was it. I do believethough also that they found me
on Twitter after I reshared itfrom you too. And so that was
interesting, too, because thatthat became the time where you
were reached out to sources onsocial media. So that blew
(44:51):
everything open. And I thinkafter that, I was like, Okay,
I'm out. Even though I'm workingin this role that doesn't
fulfill my need for likecommunity or to be speaking
truth to power, I can now startto merge some of these parts of
my life, these disparate partsof my life. So I can be trans
(45:14):
and my job. In everyday life, Istarted going to community
organizing events, and meetingpeople getting closer to folks
in the particularly in the queerand trans, like social justice
Atlanta scene. And that led meto, in some ways, kind of
(45:36):
feeling like I had this like,dual job. I mean, all of my
organizing and stuff was unpaid.
But it was so fulfilling that itdidn't matter. Right. And, you
know, I think it was, it mighthave been interesting to some of
my peers that, you know, I hadthis very professional life as a
(45:56):
black trans woman. And also Iwas doing this kind of
organizing and community work.
And those were things that Iwanted to continue to bring the
whole way. But there was a pointwhere about a year and a half,
and I was I had wanted tointegrate these parts of my life
(46:17):
more. And so I was like, Okay,well, I'm doing all this stuff
outside of work. I'm doinginterviews every now and then
and stuff and writing freelancefor other publications. Mm hmm.
I was like, I pitched a podcastidea that was on kind of the
(46:37):
emergence of the movement forblack lives, which an amazing
idea, like it wasn't very muchahead of the curve, but maybe
too, ahead of the curve. Becausethe people I work my immediate
boss was like, No, we need youto do basically, this SEO stuff,
like, we need you to do. You'renot one of the podcasters they
(47:01):
have different podcasts. Theyhad no podcasters of color, won,
essentially, like a roster of atleast seven or eight podcasts.
And they had a feminist podcast.
So they were like, Well, wealready got the gender thing
covered. But it was two whitewomen, they weren't even clear.
(47:23):
Neither one of them were evenclear, you know, to whites,
straight woman. And I, you know,and I don't mean that to be
shady to them. Because they didgood work. They actually brought
me on as a guest for a couple oftheir themselves. So they did
see me. So it wasn't that theywere being roadblocks. In fact,
they were actually platform me.
(47:48):
So I have to give them kudos forthat. But I, I had, you know,
these immediate bosses now whowere not. So yeah, in terms of
the workpiece have what I wantedto create. And so that pushed me
to kind of figure out okay,well, what am I going to do? And
(48:10):
I realized, Okay, well, I Well,there was another incident where
there was another murder of ablack cisgender straight man. I
mean, during that time, therewas somebody, it felt like
almost every other week, becausewe were just starting to pay
(48:31):
more and more attention to thesenational dynamics around police
brutality in particular. And Iremember everyone on the
timeline on Black Twitter, youknow, we were all in mourning,
like everyone was talking abouthow much this day sucks. I can't
remember if it was we hadlearned more information about
(48:53):
someone who had been murdered bypolice. Or if a murder to come
down that did something happen,right? It was I remember that
timeframe. I don't remember whoit was. But there were so
many. But I remember going intowork that day. My spirit was the
(49:14):
good, like, I didn't talk toanybody, or anything. And it was
business as usual. Yeah.
You know, these most moving forignoring donate not didn't even
register with? No,I mean, that's the other thing
too, you know, wasn't the likeGeorge Floyd where you knew
everyone knew that it literallywas like that, you know, kind of
(49:37):
double consciousness that WEBDuBois talked about, of like,
black American living in acompletely different world. Were
paying attention to this case ofpolice brutality, but my mostly
white co workers work and wewere having completely different
(49:58):
day. Yeah. And I was just like,I can't be a pagan to this in
the system anymore. Like, Ican't be putting my energy into
a company where there isn't anawareness around what is
happening. Yeah. And so thatstarted my foray. And so
(50:18):
nonprofits and me trying tofigure out okay, well, I guess
I'll work in nonprofits, becausethere was the assumption that
all the values aligned. And thenso I was sure there are lots of
nonprofit folks out there thatare chuckling or maybe crying a
(50:40):
little bit, right? Because thenonprofit space can be as
challenging, sometimes corrupt,or dealing with the same I mean,
all rooted in in systemic racismand patriarchy as well. Right?
Yeah. So you went. So that issort of catalysts, you're like,
(51:00):
I'm, I'm at a place, I needsomething that's gonna bring me
together. And then you movedinto nonprofit. And so let's
talk a little bit about that.
But I mean, I feel like for you,you know, as your sister being
along this, the ride with you,and then I'll say, the backseat
maybe cheering you on is sort ofmeteoric in terms of just like
(51:23):
there and then moving back intomedia, and then kind of getting
to where you are now. Yeah, Imean, you know, everything was
still practical, in a sense,like I knew, whatever new role I
took, it had to have somethingthat would improve my quality of
(51:44):
life. If it wasn't going to bePE, then it had to be something.
And I did, I was made going tomake a little bit more in this
next role that I ended up takinga Transgender Law Center, I was
going to be working incommunications, so it was still
in the realm of likestorytelling. I mean, I had an
(52:08):
idea of like, okay, well, I canmake this role be what I need it
to be. I always felt that to anextent after a certain point,
because the role that I hadbefore I did not have that
flexibility. So I again, thoughtthat I would have that
flexibility going into thisrole. But this job actually
require me to move from Atlanta,to Oakland, California, and
(52:37):
the place that, you know, whenyou were in high school, and
college felt so boring, and hereyou are,
you know, finally about to leaveGeorgia for the first time at
like, 25. I had just turned 25You know, so, so let's be clear,
I will be thoroughly southernfor my entire life, because
(53:00):
that's about a quarter of acentury. Not a quarter on
somebody can ever be like, Oh,you left Georgia, whatever,
whatever. No, honey.
I was thinking of that phrasethat growing up. I remember I it
was one of my favorite things. Ihad a t shirt from Cracker
(53:21):
Barrel, and it was pink, and saygrits girls raised in the south.
And I was thinking about thatthis weekend. And I was like,
Yeah, even though I went toschool in Indiana, I lived in
New York for 14 years have livednow I lived in Portland for a
couple of years of ZiL grits.
Still Reverend grits out.
I mean, a quarter of a centurylook, hey, don't don't talk to
(53:45):
me. Sorry. But, um, but going toOakland. I mean, I was sad to
leave the community I found inAtlanta, black, queer trans
folks in particular for thefirst time. But I was excited to
(54:06):
be somewhere different. I had anassumption, it might be a little
easier. Whatever that meant. Itwasn't New York. But it was it
was something else. It was closeto San Francisco. So I had all
these ideas. So when I went towork at trans Law Center, trying
(54:28):
to think of like the immediatedifferences. I mean, it this
sense of like, family did feelstronger in this space, because
for the first time, I wasworking at a place that was
mostly trans people.
You know, it was very, it wasjust still an anomaly even now,
(54:48):
right. 2021 still an anomalyfor, you know, entire
organizations to be representedin that way. Yeah, I
mean, interestingly, nowespecially if you're in
nonprofits, and you're wantingto work in organizing. I mean,
there's just a vast network oftrans led organizations and
(55:10):
initiatives, which a lot ofpeople don't know about. So it
is more even more possible nowto work at somewhere that was
led by a trans person and mostlyhas trans folks on staff. Now,
most of those staffs are small,but it's still possible, then, I
mean, that was rare. And Ibecame very close to a lot of
(55:36):
people they are, and I learnedso much more about kind of the
national context of ourcommunity, the history of our
community. A lot more of thesocial justice history,
particularly from a transperspective is documented in
(56:01):
Oakland, California, documentedin the bay. Similar to like New
York, the thing about Georgia,in Atlanta is like, there's
always been trans people theyare, and I met many of those
trans elders while they werethere, but it's not as
documented. So you have to dothe digging, so and the work and
(56:22):
have the conversations to knowthat. So it was interesting
being in a place where that waswell documented. Obviously,
Oakland is like home to theBlack Panthers lower of the
past. And so there was thatsocial justice history. Right.
So yeah, I mean, I, it was aninteresting experience. And when
(56:45):
I was there, I mean, I was doingmore work that was connected to
community because, you know, ouraudiences on social media, I was
largely in charge of like, thedigital kind of presence was our
community mostly and wasn't asmuch allies at that point. And
(57:07):
so But I continue to kind ofbuild in independent presence,
from that work and from theorganization. Because I just had
been in that mode from my lastjob where everything was so
separated, so I think, eventhough it felt like things that
(57:27):
completely merged together,professionally, that wasn't
true. Like I still always had anindependent hustle.
Jessica Hartley (57:38):
Thank you for listening to another episode of
hustle, grind, shine andreignite. If you liked this
episode, like, subscribe andshare on all your favorite
podcasts. I hope you'll tune into the next episode featuring
another amazing and talented,professional color. In the
(57:59):
meantime, shine bright
Welcome to the hustle grind shine and reignite
podcast. I'm your host, JessicaHartley. Join me on another
journey with amazing andtalented professionals of color.
We laugh and cry and take notes.
But most of all be inspired allof this and more on our next
episode of hustle, grind, shine.
(00:24):
And let's go
Raquel Willis (00:33):
Hello and welcome to another episode of hustle
grind, shine and reignite. I amyour host, Jessica Hartley, and
it is a pleasure to welcome youto our new show. I am so excited
to welcome our guests today. Hername is Raquel Willis. She's an
activist and advocate, a writerand author to be and also a
(00:57):
media strategist. She's also inall transparency. Amazing. And
my sister. So Raquel, I'm soexcited to welcome you to the
show. Welcome saysthank you. I'm so excited to be
on.
Oh yes, I'm so excited. And Iknow a lot of your journey and
your story, as a woman, as atrans woman, as a journalist, as
(01:21):
a writer, as a model all ofthese things that you are, which
is just so amazing. I'm so soproud of you. But I'm excited to
share a little bit of yourcareer journey and your story
with our audience and ourlisteners. So I'm going to take
me back, I'm going to take youback back into time. And let's
(01:41):
go all the way back to childhoodand talk a little bit about what
it was like growing up in theWillis household. And what did
you want to be? And do you seesome elements of what you wanted
to be as a kid reflected in someof the things that you do now?
Yeah. Oh, Lord, here we go.
traveling back to Augusta,Georgia. I think growing up in
(02:07):
our household, we knew that wehad to do something once. From
high school. Well, we knewcollege that was just a given we
had to doit. And there was no question no
question, none.
You know, it's a blessing. Youknow, I don't say that. It's
like it's a burden. i It'sdefinitely a blessing to have
(02:29):
folks. And not just ourimmediate family, but our
extended family, ourgrandparents, our audience,
folks pushing us to be like,eventually having careers that
could sustain us and be self sowe can be self sufficient.
Obviously, well, obvious to you,I guess I think the initial kind
of thoughts around a career wasbeing a pediatrician that was
(02:52):
kind of instilled in me as a kidby our grandmother, grandma.
Wrestlerest in power. Girl I knew as a
force to be reckoned with. Yes,she was for
sure. And so that was kind ofbig. And I mean, I don't know,
really, where that concept of acareer for me came from for her.
(03:17):
But it was just drilled into me.
That was what you were going tobe early on, you know, you'd say
baby doctor, because what fiveyear old? Thank you.
I remember that. I don't knowwhere that came from. I always,
you know, our grandmother was apharmacist assistant when she
was a physician's assistant andalso a pharmacy technician. And
(03:40):
yeah, I don't know, I justremember that. Was it like you
taking care of kids and babies?
And yes, being a baby doctor, Iremember us talking about that.
But I don't know where that camefrom. And I mean, it was also
one of those things that wasjust like, it sticks, right? I
mean, the same was like, youknow, nicknames and things like
that stick when you're a child,I felt like you being a
pediatrician and a baby doctorwas just
(04:03):
there. It was just there. And,you know, I think that there are
a few different things. I mean,I was the youngest, I think, you
know, and and I also there aresuch a gap between us and and
so, this kind of idea of like,well, you do these things that
we have made up in our minds foryou these expectations. We've
(04:25):
made up in our minds for you,because you're the youngest
person to be in the Munch aftera while and so yeah, you know,
all those ideas of like, be adoctor be a lawyer. I think one
of the doctor ideas just wasattached to me. Yeah. And I do
remember having a sense of like,well, I do like the idea. There
(04:47):
was like something very nobleabout doing something that would
help other folks. Right. And soI definitely latched on to that
we grew up in a family wherevolunteers What's so important?
Yeah, that's those tenants ofstewardship from church are kind
of echoed in our head. And Ithink even just the the kind of
(05:10):
smaller town, or at least mediumsized town idea of like
community was important for us.
And so I really think thateventually that laid the
foundation for my activism work.
But of course, like they're alsohad some kind of like a
practical idea. And I think whenI got to high school, I was
(05:33):
figuring out myself around thattime, I came out as gay at that
point, because I had no ideaabout what it meant to be trans
or gender identity and thedifference between that and
sexual orientation. But I founda yearbook staff. And so I was a
yearbook nerd, you know, goingaround taking pictures of
(05:55):
classmates all all the time, Istill have so many of those
photos. And you know, peoplewould be like, go away, like,
why, like, whatever. But then ofcourse, they'd like ham it up,
because this was like, rightbefore we all had like smart
phones. And so, you know, peoplewere hammered up for the camera,
(06:16):
because it was still cool to beasked, you know, to
have your phone to take apicture. Yeah, that was a really
big deal. Yeah.
So I remember journalism as aword came into my lexicon
because I, obviously theyearbook? Well, I mean, maybe
not obvious to folks. Butyearbook class, was a class. So
(06:37):
one thing that we worked on out,outside, I mean, we did work on
it outside of school, but itwasn't,
but it wasn't like a club afterschool that you just kind of
join, it was actually built intothe curriculum. And I mean, I
think it's probably important toshare here. I mean, you didn't
go to just the old regular highschool, right, having what is
ever regular. You know, I wentto a, what we call magnet
(07:00):
schools here in the south, andin Georgia, I went to a magnet
school and you went to theschool that I went to, and I
obviously went on to a differentschool, but you went to a fine
arts, you know, an art schoolthat allowed for all of those
things. So that was also atremendous opportunity as well.
Yeah,you know, and I think when I was
thinking about going to thatschool, I think part of it for
me was I needed a safe haven asa queer kid because I have been
(07:25):
bullied in school for a longtime. And that was something
that I actually was very goodat, compartmentalizing and like
keeping out of the purview ofour family. Like none of our
family. You know, Mom, Dad, youare broke. I had no idea.
(07:45):
I knew I was bullying. I thinkfor me, it was like I had to
save face. I didn't want anyoneelse to know that I was being
bullied at school, because thenI knew the inevitable idea would
be okay, well, what are youdoing? What what are you going
to know different? Because wedon't see it? We don't
understand. So you got to bedoing something different
(08:06):
outside of the house. You know,it doesn't have to make sense.
Because at that time, you know,our language culturally and
socially about queerness wasstill so devolved. And even as a
queer person, it was. So yes, Imean, your book was my safe
haven. And I loved it, but onthe door to the yearbook class
(08:29):
and said journalism, it doesn'tentirely make sense, but that's
how they coded the course. And Iwas like, Okay, well, I guess
maybe journalism makes sense asa major. And maybe working in
publications makes sense,because I did watch like ugly
baddie did watch like The DevilWears Prada. I remember those
(08:49):
characters. And I obviouslydidn't want to be like a villain
like a Miranda Priestly or aWillamina Slater from those
shows or respectively. But I didlove the idea that like, they
were some badass women. And Iknow in my head, I was like,
that's cool. I love writing. Ialso had a secret life wanting
(09:13):
to be a songwriter. I don'tthink I knew that either. But I
started my writing in writingsongs. I still have like, some
of the notebooks that are liketattered now, but it was almost
like poetry. So at least likefamily knew I wrote poetry to an
(09:33):
extent because I write like,poems and stuff during like
holidays or family reunions. ButI you know, and I was nurtured
in that to an extent like, Iwould create things for school,
but there was never kind of thisidea of oh, you can be a writer.
(09:54):
It but it was something that wasnurtured to an extent like and
people would notice Yeah, Iwould have to do recitations for
different things. And, and Ialways did well in language arts
classes, and grammar classes andstuff like that. So I think that
paves the way for me toeventually study journalism.
And how did you make thedecision to? You're like, Okay,
(10:16):
your book journalism,pediatrician is now out the
door, med school that have a,how did you make the decision
about where you were going to goto school? And I guess finding a
place that was going to be thatplace that was going to be your
home for, you know, three orfour years? Yeah, well,
(10:36):
the interesting thing was when Iwas choosing schools and my
college search, it really wasn'tas much about this specific
program or that specificprogram. I mean, to an extent, I
narrowed the list down ofschools that did have journalism
programs that were like solid,so I only applied to schools
(10:59):
that had solid journalismprograms. But I also applied
based on location because I feltlike the only way for me to to
start to kind of live fully inmy queerness was to move out of
the south to move out ofGeorgia, and particularly to a
bigger metropolitan area. And sothe only one in that lineup that
(11:23):
I really knew I was New York, Imean, Marley, because pretty
much all the media of like, the90s, for the most part,
everything was based in NewYork. I mean, you think about
like the Cosby Show, we're notgoing down that road, based in
New York. Based in New York, youknow, yeah, the shows are like
(11:46):
San Francisco. But the idea ofmoving to the west at that point
was so foreign. So yeah, so Ireally wanted to go to New York
University. You know, this,and I do I know, I was there. I
mean, I was living in New Yorkat the time, right? So we can
say, what would your life hadbeen? Like? Had you been able to
go to NYU, but here you are. Soyou know, in spite of all of
(12:12):
those things, but I mean, youknow, the same thing that I
struggled with when I went toschool is, with all the
privilege that we had growingup, and we had a lot of it in
nurturing and capable parents. Imean, I couldn't afford NYU. I
couldn't afford, you know, wewent to Purdue couldn't I mean,
that loans? Still Still I thinkI finally just paid off my
(12:34):
undergraduate. Right. So yeah,it was tough, tough to make
those decisions. But yeah,I mean, and to that point, I
mean, I obviously was veryinspired by you having gone off
and left Georgia. You know, Iwas like, Okay, well, that is
(12:55):
possible. It is possible. It wasI had this kind of idea, I
think, within all of thatprivilege, so all I had to do
was name it, and claim it. Andthen it would happen as almost
everything else in life for meup until that point had, right.
Yeah, but that didn't happen.
(13:17):
And so literally, my last choicewas the University of Georgia.
So it was in the lineup. I thinksomeone had to I don't even
maybe it was you. But someonehad said, Well, you should at
least apply to at least oneschool. That probably was me,
because that'swhat I mean, I cut from the same
cloth. I was like, I gotta getout. And so I applied to one
(13:39):
school in Georgia. I was like,I'm not going to UGA amazing
school, great, great things. Andall the ways mom got her a tour
heard or at least he had herdoctorate from UGA. So we were
familiar with University ofGeorgia familiar with Athens and
all of that. I didn't apply toUGA. I was like, I don't want to
(14:00):
go here. And I applied to ClarkAtlanta, wanted, I was like,
Well, let me throw an HBCU inthe mix, and apply to Clark
Atlanta. But you know, very muchlike you wanted to needed to get
out and wanted to get out. Ialso think about and this
crossed my mind. I feel likewe've talked about this at some
point, though, that because Iwas the first because I got out
(14:20):
that impacted you not being ableto get out because they had
paid. I had my loans, but thenthey were still paying parental
loans. And so I also think thatthat again, you know, life turns
out to be what it is, and wewill keep going on this amazing
journey that you have. But Idefinitely feel and no, I mean,
(14:42):
I can only imagine that myexperience and me getting out
which was great. And I did sortof pave the way for us to leave
if you want it to leave, but thefinancial impact of what that
was and we didn't know what wewere doing at the time
subsidized loans, unsubsidizedloans. I got to Small
scholarship, but that had animpact and a dent on our parents
(15:03):
finances, too. So I can imaginethey were still paying those
loans. And they were like no waywe can layer on a whole nother
set of loans for that. Sowell, you know, I think also in
hindsight, and just knowing morepolitically when I graduated
from high school in 2009, and itliterally was in the midst of
the fallout from the economicrecession. So, which is
(15:26):
something we definitely didn'trealize I
didn't even think about that.
When you say it like that. I'mlike, Oh, my goodness, yes.
Because I was 2008, I wasworking at an agency, the bottom
fell out, a bunch of people gotlaid off living in New York, and
that was definitely a toughtime. need to think about that.
(15:48):
Yeah. So I mean, I knew thatlike, well, I know now at least,
right, that impacted things. Andthen of course, that wouldn't
impact the industry that mypeers, and I wouldn't hear it in
journalism, because a few yearsdown the road, you know, I'm
coming into the start of acareer where there aren't as
(16:12):
many resources, there aren't asmany opportunities, people
aren't taking as many chances interms of hiring. I mean, you
literally had somebody in NewYork, right. And because I
wasn't in New York, it limitedmy opportunity, I almost would
not have even been able to workin journalism, if I hadn't had
(16:32):
some type of, you know,persistence or stubbornness to
say, No, I'm going to use thisdegree, I just spent all these
years studying, and actuallyfigure out what was going to
happen. So I had to also take onsome flexibility. But I think
the other part of this too, wasthat storytelling was shifting
(16:54):
the way that people wereconnecting with shifting,
because social media. Mm hmm.
Loaded while I was in college,so it's started just before with
like, in high school, you know,I was a part of that, that
initial group of folks and onMySpace, right. And as Facebook
kind of built out into somethingthat wasn't just in a
(17:19):
northeastern college sphere,right. But I was taking courses
in journalism, that these were,oh, geez, of course, who had all
of these kinds of bona fides, interms of journalism, but they
weren't taking the digital spaceseriously, still, even after
(17:40):
like, a decade of lead time, youknow, we're going into the
2010s. And it's still, we'regoing to teach you all of these
kind of outdated ways ofcommunicating that don't take
into consideration that in a fewyears, you'll probably have to
(18:01):
get your start writing frigginBuzzFeed, listicles, to even
start making a splash becausethose traditional jobs weren't
really there. Now, I was lucky.
So my first job out of college,I worked at the Watson Tribune,
a newspaper and was in County,Georgia. So I'm still in Georgia
(18:24):
at this point. But I will say,you know, even though it wasn't
where I wanted to be, it was atraditional newspaper reporter
job. And so there were so manythings that I was able to kind
of work out skills wise, andstorytelling, and listening for
(18:45):
the real story, in thatexperience. So I loved the work
of gathering these stories,talking to unlikely characters
in this kind of local context.
And having this kind of missionto document this place. And take
this place seriously. That maybe for most of the folks who
(19:07):
live there. They never felt likeit was taken seriously because
that, you know, that's an wound,or a trauma in a sense, not in
like a nomadic way. But that Ithink a lot of folks who don't
grow up in metropolitan bubblescarry around, we know what it
feels like to not feel like ourstories matter, because of Nord
(19:30):
in New York, if you're not inthe big city in your state. And
then if you're not having thiskind of traditional,
professional trajectory, yourstory often is not considered
relevant or sexy enough for themasses to think about and
consume. So I think, in someways, being forced by so many
(19:54):
different forces to stay put andfor a lot longer to cook low,
longer and slow cooker, Ilove bacon bacon.
It, it solidified the fact that,to me, actually the most
important stories are not theones that happen in these kind
(20:18):
of big metropolitan places. Andwe've seen that now especially
politically right. Part of thereason we're so divided is
because everyone I mean, I writlarge on both sides feels like
their stories are not seen asimportant, right? Or the stories
that are marginalized are notoften censored enough. Or when
(20:42):
they are censored. The cornersare cut off, they're diluted
down to fit and to these kind ofold, you know, Zeitgeist The
wave of talking about them. Ihope that makes sense.
No, that makes sense. I mean,they're it, they're all sort of
repackaged into, I mean, a dyingframework, a dying narrative,
(21:06):
that is still like, even asprogressive as a lot of things
have gotten are still wrapped inpatriarchy, still wrapped in
racism still wrapped inhomophobia and queer folk. I
mean, they're still all througha lens, right? Because even when
we think about new narratives,and storytelling and messaging,
(21:26):
that we're trying to tell,oftentimes, when I, you know,
coming from marketing in theworld of advertising, we are
still trying to reframe newthings in a way that people can
understand them, which means youare changing, versus just
presenting it the way it is. Imean, that's why, you know, when
you think about storytelling,and media, and movies and TV,
(21:49):
it's like, okay, well, I'm nottrying to translate my story for
you, I want you to understand mystory as it needs to be told. So
that resonates a lot with me. Sotalk to me about the jump the
leap from Walton, and smalltown, Georgia. So you I mean,
you went from Augusta, to Athensto really, really small town,
(22:13):
Georgia. And then that was Imean, to your point, I think a
bit of a catalyst for you.
Yeah, right. I mean, there wasan ongoing tension as well,
because, you know, I had thatfirst job. But I also went into
the closet. So I was not out toin general to folks as being
(22:38):
trans or queer, in that firstjob, because I honestly did not
believe I would be hired if Iwas that candid, and authentic,
or that I would be able to keepmy job being an openly trans
queer woman. And so that wasweird. So there's the tension of
(22:58):
having less college wherevirtually everyone I went to
school with knew that I wastrans because they had witnessed
the transition throughout, atleast socially, and
aesthetically, through mycollege years. And then now
within this job that wasliterally in a town that was
like, several miles away, noteven that far, but it was its
(23:22):
own little enclave, when therewasn't enough of a distance that
I could be stealth, which iswhen you're not out as being
trans. And that was the dream. Imean, almost 10 years ago, you
know, the holy grail for a lotof trans people was, if you are
blessed enough to start yourtransition early enough, and
(23:44):
pass so to speak, and that youcan kind of move through the
world undetected as a transperson, like people wouldn't
think that you are, then thatwas the route for survival. And
now that felt like the only wayI would ever even have a chance
to have a career. So I wasthere. And it started to be
(24:05):
difficult being stealth, but itstill just felt like something I
had to do. But I still wanted toget out of this space because I
at least wanted differentcommunity. So I didn't have a
lot of black queer folks in mylife just by the virtue of the
(24:25):
area that I was in being veryconservative, but also being
very quiet. So most of thepeople I knew at that time were
white trans people. And so Istarted to look for new job
because I just knew I needed togo to Atlanta. Now the other
piece of it though, I will saythe final straw for me and
(24:46):
deciding to move to Atlanta andtry and find a new job was I had
been given this project to startthe first like local Women's
mag, it was still basically likea newspaper, mag kind of
(25:06):
situation, it wasn't gonna belike super long or super glossy.
But it was gonna be like aquarterly publication that was
elevating women's voices. And Iwould be like, essentially the
the lead on it like to edit allthese different things I could
curate and choose the content,the contributors, all of that,
you know, that hearken back tothe yearbook experience, it gave
(25:30):
me a little bit of that, like,Okay, this is something I could
live for a little bit in mycareer. And then, I think,
within the week of, we're aboutto have our casting call for the
first cover of it. I was gonnabe called flights.
(25:51):
I love it. And it wasso cute. Like, I was so excited.
I was like, outside of theweekly cop opinion columns that
I got to write work, I would tryand insert my social justice
leanings. And sometimes I gothate mail for it. To be honest,
I was really excited about thatwe got a brand new publisher. So
out with this kind of, you know,very stereotypical white and
(26:15):
blonde lady who never saw it forme until this project came on
her radar. And she was like, Oh,you're perfect for it. This is
gonna be great. And then it waslike, Oh, I'm a real person in
the room. Because let's be real,we know how some of these white
women in the professional spacecan be where, you know, they
know you're there. But it's likea weird, like, they see you as
(26:37):
competition. And also they don'tsee you as anything, as all
Yeah. And so there was thatinvisible tension. But at least
there was at that point, wecould connect on like, oh,
womanhood, whatever, like, let,we're doing it for the girls.
She was out. And then we got inthis whites, this straight man
(26:59):
who was very stereotypicallymasculine, he basically scrapped
the entire magazine project,wow, and use the energy around
that to be FIP sports reporting.
(27:19):
So it was kind of like,it was like a TV show. I was
gonna say, it's just like a TVshow or movie just like, Okay,
we're doing that now. Wow. And Iwill say, you know,
I really appreciated that myfirst boss, so the woman was the
publisher, but my immediate bosswas my editor, the editor of the
(27:42):
team. And I will say, you know,he was very supportive of me. I
mean, obviously, I wasn't outbut he, he knew that I was like,
you know, this little liberalgirl who just graduated from
college and bright eyed, like,has all these kind of
(28:03):
stereotypically like, young ideaof pushing the envelope, and he
supported it as much as hecould. And also cautioned me, he
was like, you know, you writethis, you write that you're
going to get this. Our audiencesleans conservative, like, he was
very candid about those things.
But in general, he did incensure me. So I have to say
(28:24):
that, like, I was lucky in thatfirst job when I was learning
those skills that to an extenthe was very supportive. But I
had to get out of there. I waslike, Okay, I don't want to stay
any longer. I have been therefor over a year at this point.
And I wasn't making any money.
(28:44):
To be clear as a newspaperreporter in this small town.
Like Isaid, that's why I didn't go
into I mean, that's why I didn'tI mean, I,
yeah, yeah. So I got a new jobat this company called
HowStuffWorks. It now has apodcast empire. But wow. And
(29:07):
a lot of people don't rememberlike it was, was Wikipedia
around even though I mean, maybeso but it was like, it was the
step by step like house stuff,where it's just I did while
you're taking me back. It waslike,
you know, you had those sitesthat were Yeah, essentially like
a Wikipedia in a sense. It was alittle bit more editorial. But
(29:29):
it was essentially like, we'regoing to break down these
different things, you know,whatever you could think of. So
they had articles about it. Soit was very Wikipedia. Like it
was very, like about.com. Thatwas a thing. I know, it probably
still is a thing, but you know,so I went there, but I was not
(29:50):
writing. So I was actuallyproducing content in this job.
That's how much I wanted to getout of that environment. I chose
a job Where I was a digitalpublisher was the role but
essentially, I was doing likeSEO optimization, and some
editing some light editing. Butit was it less, in some ways
(30:15):
less fulfilling job.
And it's probably more more likethat content management. Yep.
type of role versus to yourpoint that the content creation
piece was where you shine andthrive, right?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that andthat felt fulfilling this felt
like I was, you know, just thepeg in the festival,
(30:37):
essentially, it wasn't for lackof trying to put myself out
there. I mean, I wrote, I thinkI wrote at least one or two
articles. I was a guest on someof the pre existing podcasts.
But of course, that didn'thappen until after I came out.
So within like, a month or so ofbeing in this new role, because
(31:02):
I had kind of come to that job.
I was like, Okay, well, I'm notgoing to have these hard and
fast rules about staying in thecloset, like if the opportunity
arose, and I had to come out, Iwill just take the leap, because
I didn't want to feel like I hadto hide who I was, or was this
led me just lie by omission,essential or hide by omission.
(31:23):
And you're using the word hide,and I want people to understand
that this is literally aboutsafety and security. It is not
about purposeful deception toget over it is about safety, and
survival. Right. Yeah. I mean,you know, it's so interesting to
think even for me, but this was2014. So what that was seven
(31:45):
years ago about in this timeframe, so much has shifted
around the concept of transfolks, you know, like, it's not
easy by any means. I thinkactually, in some ways, it's
become even more difficult to beopenly trans for a lot of
(32:06):
people. But at this time, mostfolks really had no
understanding about transpeople. You know, like it was, I
mean, literally, you would tellsomeone, and it was almost like,
they look at you like you're analien, like, at least now,
right? They still might do alittle bit of that, but it's not
(32:30):
as foreign. I have an idea howmany strides invisibility. Now
the other thing too, is I'm only30. And the thing is, is that
people have this idea that I ama part of a group of folks who
have trans folks who kind ofcame into ourselves within this
(32:51):
visibility era, but honestly, Ididn't like the the bulk of my
early transition in collegehappened just before the
visibility wave started.
Literally the week that I tookmy first interviews for a job
(33:12):
after graduating from undergradwas the week that oranges and
new black premiered. Which Wowobviously featured Laverne Cox.
So that which is considered thestart of this visibility era.
Like if you're gonna think ofany particular star is Laverne
(33:34):
Cox starring in Orange is theNew Black. And then that week as
well, was when the GeorgeZimmerman trial and so that is
considered by the creators ofBlack Lives Matter as like an
inciting incident for the startof the Black Lives Matter
(33:54):
movement. So as I was cominginto my professional life, the
terrain was shifting on so manydifferent fronts, for me,
identity wise, and the onlyreason I have all of this
awareness now is because I'mworking on a memoir, and I've
had to work to kind of figureout okay, what is my origin
(34:16):
story as an actor, right. So andso that's wild to think about,
but I literallywithin the same sort of time
frame so it's, it's interestingto be where I am as I'm 12 years
older than you and experience itfrom a you know, a different
vantage point also being aparent, but just experiencing it
in that way. And in theconnection of those things. And
(34:43):
what the connection of though,you know, because for me, I
wouldn't have connected theGeorge Zimmerman thing which
very much was poignant for us asblack Americans, but like I
wouldn't have connected thatwith the debut of Orange is the
New Black and Laverne Cox butobviously, those things coming
together for someone like youand others in the community.
(35:04):
Wow. I mean, those are prettypowerful things to also have the
balance, the excitement, andhave the visibility of being
seen or just having more peoplesee the humanity in the
realness, but also, that nomatter what of all those things
are happening, and that aregreat and awesome and wonderful,
(35:27):
still living in a system and ina society that doesn't see any
of us as human in a lot of ways,right. So wow, powerful
connections there.
Yeah, I mean, you know, I thinkthe other thing, I've also
realized, as I'm kind of workingon this book is, within a month
(35:51):
of even those incidents, was thefirst case that I I really was
kind of shook and paid deeperattention to around the black
trans woman being murdered,named Alon nettles. So that
happened in New York, I guess itwas August 2013. This was also
(36:12):
just before I got this job atthis newspaper. So I was
becoming very aware of theconsequences of being known as
trans in everyday life. And thiswas a kind of isolated education
I was happening because when Iwas in college, I didn't know
(36:33):
another black trans woman inperson. I didn't know another
black trans woman until I movedto Atlanta and found black trans
community. I knew why transpeople, I knew a few trans folks
of color, mostly trans masculinepeople. But I didn't know
another openly black transperson in my everyday life. Like
(36:56):
I knew people who like the JanetMock our initial article that
kind of told her story had comeout on Marie Claire, when I was
still in college, obviouslystarted to know about Laverne
Cox, there was an athlete namedchi alums who I hadn't met who
came to give a talk. There wasCourtney Ziegler, who was a
(37:18):
black trans masculine scholar,who had come to speak at our
college, but in everyday life, Ididn't know another black trans
person. So there were there wereso much distance as well. So
yeah, so when I was in Atlanta,and the inciting incident for me
to come out, at the second job,was the suicide of a young trans
(37:44):
girl named Lila Alcorn. And soshe had published her suicide
letter to post on Tumblr aftercommitting the act. This was
December 2014. And I rememberreading that story. I remember
reading her suicide ladder, andessentially baked into it was a
(38:07):
call to action. So she had beenostracized by peers, by school
officials, and by theirreligious family, and had
actually been isolated, andtried, you know, they tried to
do essentially, like aconversion therapy experience on
(38:27):
her, and it drove her to commitsuicide. And so in the suicide
letter, one of the lines thatstuck out to me was fake
Society, please, huh. And I tookthat personally, because I was
like, you know, Well, damn, youknow, I am contributing to this
(38:49):
idea that we have to stay in thecloset and silent about who we
are. And I consider myself astoryteller, a writer,
journalist, all these differentthings. And yeah, you know, I'm
kind of writing about theseissues. Tangentially. But I'm
not even being authentic aboutwho I am. So that pushed me I
(39:14):
was just overcome with emotion.
And I have stacked I was like, Idon't know what to do. But I
stacked up these books on mylittle rinky dink coffee table,
and put my laptop top up and Iwas like, I'm gonna make a video
and maybe I'll post it onYouTube. I do this video, and I
really didn't have a desire tobe a YouTube tuber or anything
(39:40):
like that. But I posted thevideo where I'm like, ugly
crying, but essentially saying,you know, like, I'm a black
trans woman in this society. Andthis is not right. We've got to
do better by trans youth. Theydeserve to be who they are. And
I think I got about like 4000views which I mean, it was like,
Oh, God,like back then that was a big
(40:01):
deal. And I don't even know. Didyou? I don't think I knew that
you did you share the video withus at the time. I don't think
you did share it with family. Ijust posted it, I think on my
Facebook. Right? And and onTwitter. But I, yeah, I wasn't.
(40:22):
But I wasn't necessarily tryingto be seen like it was very
different time. Like now so muchof what we do on social media is
about getting the eyes on thelooks. And then it genuinely was
not about being visible or beingseen in that way. It was about
(40:44):
being visible to an extent oflike, adding a story and a face
here, and also acknowledgingthat this had affected me. I
couldn't obviously say that toLeila, but I could at least like
express it in some way. And itgot some views. And then next
(41:06):
thing I knew, like, I think thenext day or so, the BBC
contacted me and was like, Well,will you do an interview? We saw
your video, oh, wait.
Jessica Hartley (41:18):
Maybe see cross cross support? Yes. Really?
Raquel Willis (41:27):
Why that happens.
I was like, I'm not even out atwork out at work. You know, that
was how naive my or maybe noteven naive, because I had an
understanding, obviously, of howsocial media work and that
anyone could access it.
But I but still back then itwasn't everything wasn't so
(41:48):
interconnected. I wasn't like,everyone now has a brand and a
persona. Even if that mediaisn't their work. Then it was
like, well, the folks who I'mfriends with on Facebook weren't
necessarily I like I wasn'tfriends with folks that I worked
with, or any of that. Yeah,there was a lot of separation of
(42:11):
church and state, a lot ofseparation of family, friends,
all that kind of stuff backthen. Yeah. And so the BBC
called so that was, that was thefirst right like that was really
the first big media opportunity,also for you to not be
representing other people'sstory, but to be representing
(42:34):
your story in your narrative tothe world. Right.
So that that would really Iwould say, be kind of the
activist origin story. But I wasnot so into myself that, you
know, that I thought of myselfas an activist off of that. But
(42:55):
I remember doing that. And thenactually, I had a conversation
with you. I was like, Oh, theBBC reached out. And you were
like, well, what do you say? AndI was like, Yeah, I said, I
would do it. I mean, I'mnervous. Then you're like, Okay,
so when are you coming out atwork? And then I was like, I
said that to you? I was like, doI have to? And you're like,
(43:21):
Yeah, you work. AndI did. Yeah. Shout out to all
the big sisters of big siblingsgiving sage advice.
And also a sister who has workedin media marketing and
everything, too. So I did, Icame out of work. And I mean, I
(43:45):
was nervous, for sure. But itwas a much more open
environment. I mean, it was alsoAtlanta, you know, so my
immediate boss was like, That'sgreat. I'll just have to talk to
our big big boss. She talked tohim. He was like a sad, dude. So
I was like, oh, Lord, but heactually was even seemingly even
(44:09):
more supportive than her.
Because he was from the PacificNorthwest, you know, so I think
that played a role in it, butthey were supportive. They were
like, do it, you should do it ifyou want to do it. And then I
did it. And it was called Worldhave your say, and I was on BBC,
you know, so people heard it.
(44:29):
And that was it. I do believethough also that they found me
on Twitter after I reshared itfrom you too. And so that was
interesting, too, because thatthat became the time where you
were reached out to sources onsocial media. So that blew
(44:51):
everything open. And I thinkafter that, I was like, Okay,
I'm out. Even though I'm workingin this role that doesn't
fulfill my need for likecommunity or to be speaking
truth to power, I can now startto merge some of these parts of
my life, these disparate partsof my life. So I can be trans
(45:14):
and my job. In everyday life, Istarted going to community
organizing events, and meetingpeople getting closer to folks
in the particularly in the queerand trans, like social justice
Atlanta scene. And that led meto, in some ways, kind of
(45:36):
feeling like I had this like,dual job. I mean, all of my
organizing and stuff was unpaid.
But it was so fulfilling that itdidn't matter. Right. And, you
know, I think it was, it mighthave been interesting to some of
my peers that, you know, I hadthis very professional life as a
(45:56):
black trans woman. And also Iwas doing this kind of
organizing and community work.
And those were things that Iwanted to continue to bring the
whole way. But there was a pointwhere about a year and a half,
and I was I had wanted tointegrate these parts of my life
(46:17):
more. And so I was like, Okay,well, I'm doing all this stuff
outside of work. I'm doinginterviews every now and then
and stuff and writing freelancefor other publications. Mm hmm.
I was like, I pitched a podcastidea that was on kind of the
(46:37):
emergence of the movement forblack lives, which an amazing
idea, like it wasn't very muchahead of the curve, but maybe
too, ahead of the curve. Becausethe people I work my immediate
boss was like, No, we need youto do basically, this SEO stuff,
like, we need you to do. You'renot one of the podcasters they
(47:01):
have different podcasts. Theyhad no podcasters of color, won,
essentially, like a roster of atleast seven or eight podcasts.
And they had a feminist podcast.
So they were like, Well, wealready got the gender thing
covered. But it was two whitewomen, they weren't even clear.
(47:23):
Neither one of them were evenclear, you know, to whites,
straight woman. And I, you know,and I don't mean that to be
shady to them. Because they didgood work. They actually brought
me on as a guest for a couple oftheir themselves. So they did
see me. So it wasn't that theywere being roadblocks. In fact,
they were actually platform me.
(47:48):
So I have to give them kudos forthat. But I, I had, you know,
these immediate bosses now whowere not. So yeah, in terms of
the workpiece have what I wantedto create. And so that pushed me
to kind of figure out okay,well, what am I going to do? And
(48:10):
I realized, Okay, well, I Well,there was another incident where
there was another murder of ablack cisgender straight man. I
mean, during that time, therewas somebody, it felt like
almost every other week, becausewe were just starting to pay
(48:31):
more and more attention to thesenational dynamics around police
brutality in particular. And Iremember everyone on the
timeline on Black Twitter, youknow, we were all in mourning,
like everyone was talking abouthow much this day sucks. I can't
remember if it was we hadlearned more information about
(48:53):
someone who had been murdered bypolice. Or if a murder to come
down that did something happen,right? It was I remember that
timeframe. I don't remember whoit was. But there were so
many. But I remember going intowork that day. My spirit was the
(49:14):
good, like, I didn't talk toanybody, or anything. And it was
business as usual. Yeah.
You know, these most moving forignoring donate not didn't even
register with? No,I mean, that's the other thing
too, you know, wasn't the likeGeorge Floyd where you knew
everyone knew that it literallywas like that, you know, kind of
(49:37):
double consciousness that WEBDuBois talked about, of like,
black American living in acompletely different world. Were
paying attention to this case ofpolice brutality, but my mostly
white co workers work and wewere having completely different
(49:58):
day. Yeah. And I was just like,I can't be a pagan to this in
the system anymore. Like, Ican't be putting my energy into
a company where there isn't anawareness around what is
happening. Yeah. And so thatstarted my foray. And so
(50:18):
nonprofits and me trying tofigure out okay, well, I guess
I'll work in nonprofits, becausethere was the assumption that
all the values aligned. And thenso I was sure there are lots of
nonprofit folks out there thatare chuckling or maybe crying a
(50:40):
little bit, right? Because thenonprofit space can be as
challenging, sometimes corrupt,or dealing with the same I mean,
all rooted in in systemic racismand patriarchy as well. Right?
Yeah. So you went. So that issort of catalysts, you're like,
(51:00):
I'm, I'm at a place, I needsomething that's gonna bring me
together. And then you movedinto nonprofit. And so let's
talk a little bit about that.
But I mean, I feel like for you,you know, as your sister being
along this, the ride with you,and then I'll say, the backseat
maybe cheering you on is sort ofmeteoric in terms of just like
(51:23):
there and then moving back intomedia, and then kind of getting
to where you are now. Yeah, Imean, you know, everything was
still practical, in a sense,like I knew, whatever new role I
took, it had to have somethingthat would improve my quality of
(51:44):
life. If it wasn't going to bePE, then it had to be something.
And I did, I was made going tomake a little bit more in this
next role that I ended up takinga Transgender Law Center, I was
going to be working incommunications, so it was still
in the realm of likestorytelling. I mean, I had an
(52:08):
idea of like, okay, well, I canmake this role be what I need it
to be. I always felt that to anextent after a certain point,
because the role that I hadbefore I did not have that
flexibility. So I again, thoughtthat I would have that
flexibility going into thisrole. But this job actually
require me to move from Atlanta,to Oakland, California, and
(52:37):
the place that, you know, whenyou were in high school, and
college felt so boring, and hereyou are,
you know, finally about to leaveGeorgia for the first time at
like, 25. I had just turned 25You know, so, so let's be clear,
I will be thoroughly southernfor my entire life, because
(53:00):
that's about a quarter of acentury. Not a quarter on
somebody can ever be like, Oh,you left Georgia, whatever,
whatever. No, honey.
I was thinking of that phrasethat growing up. I remember I it
was one of my favorite things. Ihad a t shirt from Cracker
(53:21):
Barrel, and it was pink, and saygrits girls raised in the south.
And I was thinking about thatthis weekend. And I was like,
Yeah, even though I went toschool in Indiana, I lived in
New York for 14 years have livednow I lived in Portland for a
couple of years of ZiL grits.
Still Reverend grits out.
I mean, a quarter of a centurylook, hey, don't don't talk to
(53:45):
me. Sorry. But, um, but going toOakland. I mean, I was sad to
leave the community I found inAtlanta, black, queer trans
folks in particular for thefirst time. But I was excited to
(54:06):
be somewhere different. I had anassumption, it might be a little
easier. Whatever that meant. Itwasn't New York. But it was it
was something else. It was closeto San Francisco. So I had all
these ideas. So when I went towork at trans Law Center, trying
(54:28):
to think of like the immediatedifferences. I mean, it this
sense of like, family did feelstronger in this space, because
for the first time, I wasworking at a place that was
mostly trans people.
You know, it was very, it wasjust still an anomaly even now,
(54:48):
right. 2021 still an anomalyfor, you know, entire
organizations to be representedin that way. Yeah, I
mean, interestingly, nowespecially if you're in
nonprofits, and you're wantingto work in organizing. I mean,
there's just a vast network oftrans led organizations and
(55:10):
initiatives, which a lot ofpeople don't know about. So it
is more even more possible nowto work at somewhere that was
led by a trans person and mostlyhas trans folks on staff. Now,
most of those staffs are small,but it's still possible, then, I
mean, that was rare. And Ibecame very close to a lot of
(55:36):
people they are, and I learnedso much more about kind of the
national context of ourcommunity, the history of our
community. A lot more of thesocial justice history,
particularly from a transperspective is documented in
(56:01):
Oakland, California, documentedin the bay. Similar to like New
York, the thing about Georgia,in Atlanta is like, there's
always been trans people theyare, and I met many of those
trans elders while they werethere, but it's not as
documented. So you have to dothe digging, so and the work and
(56:22):
have the conversations to knowthat. So it was interesting
being in a place where that waswell documented. Obviously,
Oakland is like home to theBlack Panthers lower of the
past. And so there was thatsocial justice history. Right.
So yeah, I mean, I, it was aninteresting experience. And when
(56:45):
I was there, I mean, I was doingmore work that was connected to
community because, you know, ouraudiences on social media, I was
largely in charge of like, thedigital kind of presence was our
community mostly and wasn't asmuch allies at that point. And
(57:07):
so But I continue to kind ofbuild in independent presence,
from that work and from theorganization. Because I just had
been in that mode from my lastjob where everything was so
separated, so I think, eventhough it felt like things that
(57:27):
completely merged together,professionally, that wasn't
true. Like I still always had anindependent hustle.
Jessica Hartley (57:38):
Thank you for listening to another episode of
hustle, grind, shine andreignite. If you liked this
episode, like, subscribe andshare on all your favorite
podcasts. I hope you'll tune into the next episode featuring
another amazing and talented,professional color. In the
(57:59):
meantime, shine bright
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