April 7, 2022 • 48 mins
“How much of your values are you going to lean into every step of the way?” As a transgender, Black, and queer woman, Raquel Willis harnesses storytelling through her work as an award-winning writer, activist, media strategist, and public figure. In this second episode of a two-part series, we pick up where we left off, journeying with her across the country as she shifted not only into the non-profit space but also leaning into grassroots activism which would become core to her purpose and mission in life, and continue with her as she shifted again into media and ultimately becoming the CEO of her own destiny.
In this second episode we cover:
- The crushing impact of the 2016 elections and the long-lasting impact on marginalized communities
- Learning about healing and restorative justice and how rehabilitation works for Black transwomen
- Making a major career pivot and leveraging your principles and integrity to stay grounded and centered
Raquel Willis is an award-winning writer, activist, and media strategist dedicated to Black transgender liberation. She has held groundbreaking roles throughout her career including director of communications for Ms. Foundation for Women, executive editor of Out magazine, and national organizer for Transgender Law Center.
As a thought leader on gender, race, and intersectionality, her writing has been published in numerous publications, books, and anthologies. Her writing has been published in Black Futures by Kimberly Drew and Jenna Wortham, Bulgari Magnifica: The Power Women Hold edited by Tina Leung, The Echoing Ida Collection edited by Kemi Alabi, Cynthia R. Greenlee, and Janna A. Zinzi, and Four Hundred Souls: A Community History of African America, 1619-2019 edited by Ibram X. Kendi and Keisha Blain. She has also written for Essence, Bitch, VICE, Buzzfeed, The Cut, and Vogue. During her time at Out, she published the GLAAD Media Award-winning “Trans Obituaries Project.” In 2023, she will release her debut memoir, I Believe in Our Power, about her coming of identity and activism with St. Martin’s Press.
In 2020, Raquel was named to the Forbes 30 Under 30 and The Root 100 for a second time. In 2021, Raquel was named to the University of Georgia’s 40 Under 40 and Fast Company’s Queer 50.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica Hartley (00:01):
Welcome to the hustle grind shine and reignite
podcast. I'm your host, JessicaHartley. Join me on another
journey with amazing andtalented professionals of color,
laugh and cry and take notes.
But most of all be inspired allof this and more on our next
episode of hustle, grind, shine,and reignite. Let's go. Hello
(00:24):
and welcome to another episodeof hustle, grind, shine and
reignite. I am your host,Jessica Hartley. It is my
pleasure to bring you anothershow. This is a special episode
because it is a part two, acontinuation of my conversation
(00:46):
with Raquel Willis. She's awriter, activist, media
strategist. And mostimportantly, she is my sister.
I'm so excited to welcome youback to the show. Hello says
how's it going? She
Raquel Willis (01:01):
brought me back.
Well, I'm glad to continue thisconversation with you. It's so
fun. Oh, yes.
Jessica Hartley (01:11):
And we have so much more ground to cover we
covered so much in the firstconversation. And where we left
off in episode one was talkingabout your transition, this big,
life changing movement, you wentfrom Atlanta to the bay, moving
out to Oakland, and really sortof bringing your passion and
(01:36):
your purpose, life and worktogether in this new role with
TLC, also known as theTransgender Law Center, and the
place where you thought it wasgoing to be a home for you.
You're going into what many ofus actually don't get often,
which is into an environmentwhere the majority of the people
(01:59):
are like you. And so let's startthere. Talk to us about what it
felt like to make that leap fromthe Deep South. ATL shouting, if
you will, out into the bay,which is me, you and I know,
California West Coast sentimentsare very different than ours.
(02:22):
Shoot, let's be clear.
Everybody's different westcoast, black people in the West
Coast different than blackpeople down south is just a
different life and livedexperience. So talk a little bit
about that transition, and whatit was like to move into an
environment with people maybenot exactly having the same
experiences as you, but anenvironment when there are lots
(02:45):
of other trans individuals therewith you in the struggle
together. Yeah, wow.
Raquel Willis (02:54):
It felt very heartening and inspiring. I
mean, this also was just sixmonths before the start of the
Trump era. So it also was like ashort kind of honeymoon type
period where it was like, Oh,this is great. There's so much
(03:17):
promise and potential here. Andthat still existed even as kind
of the Trump era hit his stride.
But of course, you know, I thinksome some of that kind of
boundless excitement or wasoptimism. The optimism was done
a bit, because we were facingthe reality as people working in
(03:40):
the heart of social justice,that there were going to be new
threats to literally ourexistence. I mean, some of the
first directives put down byformer President Trump 45 was
around restricting the rights oftrans students to attest to
(04:04):
their truth of being who theyare using the right pronouns
being respected in theiridentities and schools. Of
course, there was the militaryman against trans folks who
decide to serve in the military,which I have my own kind of
personal reservations, but we'renot going to go down that route.
(04:24):
About American imperialism. But,you know, i There were just all
of these signals that it wasgoing to be difficult and in
fact, I one of the vividmemories of that time was
watching the election returnswith all of these kind of senior
trans folks who have been doingsocial justice work since the
(04:48):
early 2000s. And they kind ofunderstood or had a surety that
Trump was gonna win, right. Andso that was interesting to me.
Because I I guess came in withkind of like a naivete about
these things. And I was like,There's no way there's no way it
could get that bad.
Jessica Hartley (05:08):
Right. I mean, also, let's be clear. The
election was the we want to talkabout stolen elections. That was
a stolen election. Right. So weknow who won. We know who should
have won. But yeah, I mean, Ithink we all were naive. And
let's be clear, unless use thereal word. We were delusional.
(05:31):
We were delusional in thinkingthat this country will had
progressed as far as it had. Andwe all knew everybody was like,
oh, President Obama, everythinghas changed, right? There was
this whole period of post racialall of this. And we all knew
that was nonsense. But I don'tthink we, some of us, I
(05:51):
shouldn't say everybody, there'sa lot of people were like, this
is gonna happen. I think a lotof us were just that, again,
that hope that optimism thatthis country, wasn't that racist
that your neighbor wasn't thatracist, you know, putting their
own self interest so far aheadat the literally the lives and
(06:12):
benefit of people of color,queer folks of trans folks. So I
think we all were hope sohopeful that it wasn't going to
be that bad. And it was itreally was. Yeah, I
Raquel Willis (06:24):
mean, I I totally agree. And I think the other
piece of it too, is that we havethis kind of unquestioned faith
in America systems, and thissystems of our government, and
all of these different things,these processes that are only as
(06:48):
benevolent as the people whohave the reins, you know, our
government isn't sure by anymeans. In fact, most of the
history of this country has beentried to and oppression and
trying to one up or furthermarginalize certain groups. And,
(07:11):
you know, so I think that andwithin itself, that kind of
skepticism of and criticism ofin our existing infrastructures
also paralleled I think, whatwas becoming for me and some of
the other younger staffers orfolks who didn't necessarily
(07:31):
have titles and roles thatconferred a certain type of
power, a kind of critique of,well, how are these systems of
oppression also playing out inthis workplace? That is
supposedly the most progressivespot in the world? Right? And,
yes, yeah, I was surrounded bylargely trans folks, but not
(07:54):
mostly black trans people. Andso there was definitely anti
blackness that kind of revealeditself in the the ways that
certain people would be promotedover other folks, certain people
would have kind of space forthem to carve out their
initiatives, or what theythought should be the agenda at
(08:16):
the expense of people who areconsidered the most marginalized
in our community, black transpeople, but are hardly ever
given the resources to actuallycarry out the work we need to
do. And so we had all thisprogramming that was focused on
so many other groups, but nonethat was specifically focused on
black trans people. None, I wasfocused on specifically how our
(08:41):
community was experiencingviolence. And I wasn't the only
black trans person there, I haveto give so much kudos. So one of
my I consider him almost like anolder brother in my head, but oh
law of San Jose, he actuallykind of led the start of
censoring black trans folks whenhe started the Black LGBTQ
(09:02):
migrant project. So doing workaround Black trans people in
particular, who were migrantswho were experiencing oppression
on those differentintersections. And then I also
took some, I guess, kind of apush of wanting to censor black
(09:25):
trans women, and figuring outhow we can kind of alleviate the
violence that was already anepidemic. I mean, before the
American Medical Associationwould years later, deem it a
real epidemic, and then peoplewould start to take it
seriously. And you start to seemore and more news coverage with
the sensational headlines aboutanother black trans woman
(09:47):
murder. And as we're recordinganother fact, black trans woman,
the 50 of this year, courted amurder today so so I wanted to
do work there. But I wanted todo a different kind of work, you
know, I think we have to carveout space, of course to honor
(10:09):
the victims who are no longerhere. And of course, we have to
acknowledge that there arevictims that are left behind the
survivor of that violence, theblack trans women who have to go
on and try and continue to carveout a life and a society that
still is so antagonistic towardsthem. And so I started to study
(10:33):
a bit about Healing Justice, Ilearned about these models of
Healing Justice, restorativejustice, oftentimes, they build
out the circles where you kindof confront someone who has
committed harm, and figure out Iguess, a way of kind of what
rehabilitation looks like forthem to kind of, hopefully,
(10:57):
eventually come back fully intotheir communities. I wanted to
take that concept and focusspecifically on centering
victims, right, like, so whatdoes that look like? Because we
also have to figure out what itmeans to come back into a
society that we have brokentrust with. Right,
Jessica Hartley (11:18):
right. Think about when you talk about broken
trust, right? We already know insociety that we have issues with
how we view women, and how weview violence and how we think
about victims, right? I mean,just even white women, we look
at White women that are vilifiedin the media in the workplace.
So again, if you look at sort ofabove, and like all of those
(11:41):
things, that if white women andwhite victims are continually
marginalized in victimvictimized even in the media,
like we've talked about sort ofrepeat trauma, I mean, how does
that drill down to women ofcolor? And then Black, Brown and
indigenous individuals as well?
So, yes, we're even still notthere as a broader society when
(12:03):
it comes to women at large, letalone women of color, let alone
trans women and black transwomen. Yeah, I mean, absolutely.
And so
Raquel Willis (12:13):
you know, I guess back into maybe the workplace
well, because I, I have allthese different cylinders firing
at once all the time. It wasabout building and internal
proposal to our organizing team,which I had never done. And it
was also about trying to appealto like, how we get the
(12:36):
resources to carry out theproject was full of a vision as
possible. And so there was, onceI put myself out there was like,
Okay, this is what I'm thinkingy'all might think I'm wild off
base, they were like, no,actually, this is great. Like,
let's do it. There wasn't quitefull investment. Right. It was
like, you know, we're investedin this kind of trial of it. And
(13:01):
so we we did the trial in NewOrleans, we had about 12 Black
trans women from the localcommunity come in, many of them
knew each other but had neverhad space to just be together,
talk about their experiences,heal together. And you know,
whether we crafted any kind of,quote, tangible, unquote
(13:26):
solutions out of that thesolution was already there was
that we just had space to breakbread together, and it turned
into a really powerfulexperience. And from that space,
actually, many of the womenbolstered their efforts locally
to do different things. Onefriend who came out of that and
(13:47):
also became the kind of I guess,I don't know air I don't know
she's the the next person tokind of weed that for after I
and
Jessica Hartley (13:55):
protege. We'll call him a protege.
Raquel Willis (13:58):
Oh, that's weird.
But, but she is my friend andand she took the helm. Once I
ended up obviously, eventuallyleaving TLC of the program and
continued to make it even evenmore magnificent than I could
have imagined. He ran for officeand New Orleans for about a
student council for CityCouncil, which was so
(14:20):
phenomenal. So she has kind ofstarted this political career,
other women involved. I mean,she also worked with another
woman to kind of create ahousing initiative, they are
kind of sparked from some of theenergy from that space. And she
says that herself. And then andthen there's an another woman
(14:41):
who continued to do deeper workon a campaign to kind of break
down some of the, the laws thatkind of allowed profiling of
trans women in particular,they're called crimes against
humanity, law or crimes. Naturelaws in Louisiana, right. And so
basically, you know, there's alot of like profiling that
(15:04):
happens from law enforcement oftrans people, that's kind of
okay. Because it's kind of bakedinto the fabric of the legal
system. And they they're doingwork to push against that. So
that was I mean, one of the mostpowerful things I've ever been a
part of and and groups I've everbeen a part of. And now it's
(15:27):
actually central programming andthe organization even though I'm
no longer there, it is one oftheir kind of central pieces of
programming, but it took work toget there. I mean, it took
having experiences of feelingsilenced of moving between roles
that required more work and moretravel, that I did not get a
(15:49):
raise for learning that my transmasculine peers in the same
department who were doing thesame work. Were getting paid
more way more than I was, as atrans woman, you know, so it's
also like the gender pay gap isstill exists, even amongst, you
(16:12):
know, trans folks, right,because that's how enduring the
patriarchy is. So yeah, but I,but overall, I mean, it was a
push and, and I'm so gratefulfor the folks who continue to be
in that institution and continueto try and shift dynamics,
particularly towards a blacktrans liberation.
Jessica Hartley (16:38):
Yeah, no, what an amazing legacy, also, to your
point of getting it off theground, but also the continued
impact, that the experiencesthat those trans women are
having, as connected to theircircles, now going out in having
(16:58):
more power and safe spaces, inthe tools by which they can
activate. And and I mean, wow,running for office. I mean, how
tremendous is that? And now is Iunderstand there are more
circles around the country.
Correct. So it's not just in NewOrleans,
Raquel Willis (17:16):
they are still doing work. So I mean, they are
crafting out different spaces, Ibelieve they are another one in
Dallas. So the plan was alwaysto continue that expansion. So I
know, there's always work goingon there.
Jessica Hartley (17:32):
So you were there, you started this amazing
project, along with lots ofother work that you were doing.
I mean, this was a sort offlagship project for you, but
you still had otherresponsibilities and duties. And
you talked about having totravel and you were, you know,
being an activist and supportingothers around the country. So
(17:55):
here you are out supportingothers. But then you've also
talked about this parallel thatyou're experiencing here in an
environment that again, walkinginto this environment, here are
people who are like me have hadsome similar experiences, but
you are experiencing some of thesame things that you would have
experienced in some of yourprevious roles and potentially
(18:15):
in future roles. So there'salmost this sort of disconnect
of empowering and supportingothers, but where is your
empowerment and support to talkabout how that was then the
catalyst for you to then makeyour next move? Yeah,
Raquel Willis (18:32):
I mean, internally, and there were just
so many conflicts. I mean, Iwasn't the only one filling the
sense of like, disparity betweencertain people's experiences. I
mean, there, there was,obviously, the anti blackness,
there are people filling theableism. Right, you know,
(18:53):
dealing with different crisesand not having support from
leadership there had never, youknow, for instance, been a black
trans director up until thatpoint, despite the core
programming moving towardscentering black trans people
finally, and then there was sucha disparity between leadership
(19:17):
staff and the rest of the staff,right, like in terms of
communication, so many differentthings. So, around the time that
all of that was happening, I hadbeen asked by Philip McCarty of
Teen Vogue fame, you was in theConde Nast house for a long time
(19:38):
and really made a name forhimself as an editor, putting
social justice themes and reallyin a lot of ways modernizing the
editorial output of Teen Vogue.
He made the move to OUT magazinewhich I knew because I mean, I
followed media particularlyqueer media. And he asked me if
(19:59):
I would come to out to beessentially his second in
command as Executive Editor,leading the print operations.
And so that was a wild. I mean,it wasn't anything I anticipated
at that time. kind of segue intomagazines, because I always love
(20:22):
magazines, as I said in thefirst episode, but it just never
seemed like there was a path forme. And, and Phil and I are
great friends, you know, andalso, we've had these very
different experiences, you know,he grew up in the Northeast, and
so this, this is his, like,playground, essentially. And,
(20:43):
you know, he's had had, at thatpoint, years of, like, contacts
and networking, and this kind ofpedigree and publications,
interning, you know, atdifferent publications being a
part of these experiences that Ijust didn't have, you know, and
(21:06):
I think for me, it was also asense of working through my own
imposter syndrome of like, butwhat I did have, and what he
made clear all along the way waslike, but you do have a
particular voice lens,worldview, and you represent
something that we desperatelyneed in media, you know, and,
(21:28):
and I appreciate that so much,you know, and I have to give him
kudos, because he has big up tome, ever since we met, and so
that that was really powerful.
And so I had to decide, youknow, it's like, well, at this
point, you know, I'm known asthis activist, can I still be
(21:50):
that and continue on in atraditional kind of media job,
you know, my whole entireexistence, and a lot of it is
persona, I won't necessarily saybrand. But there is a bit of a
persona attached to becomingknown as a public activists, and
(22:12):
all of these checklists, someinvisible and and, you know, and
visible, that you have to checkoff because credibility matters.
And, you know, people see youessentially have like a sellout
or, you know, that you werenever really here for community
in the first place, then who areyou anymore? And do they still
(22:35):
see what you've done as genuineand what you will do as genuine?
And so I think, for me, and Istill carry that, you know,
that's not something that I justthought about in that moment,
but it's something I continue tocare about, carry about with me,
around integrity, am I doingthings that are aligned with the
(22:59):
values I profess all along theway?
Jessica Hartley (23:02):
Right, right.
And always that balance ofserving others, but also still
serving yourself, right, westill have to serve ourselves in
this process. And I, I find evenbeing on the, you know, quote,
unquote, more corporate side ofthings, that that is something
really critical to me and I havefound as I have moved up the
(23:23):
ladder and, and advanced in mycareer, my personal ethics, and
how I am viewed is so criticalto me, it is not just about my
brand, but it is literally coreto who I am, you know, if that
does not align, or starts to,you know, start to diverge with
(23:46):
what I'm seeing within anorganization, those start to be
the signs and red flags, thatit's time to leave. So you made
the decision. You said yes, youhad left media journalism, and
sort of went into the nonprofitspace. And then you got this
call from Phil. Amazing, Phil.
(24:08):
And he was like, Girl, I needyou come on over. And you said
yes. You said yes. And oh, mg.
This is your ticket to New York.
It's finally here,
Raquel Willis (24:21):
or Yeah, yeah. I mean, and it was. That was very
exciting. Obviously, it'ssomething I always had one to.
Yeah, I mean, and I will say,you know, I think there was a
sense of it being noble to beworking in the nonprofit sector.
(24:43):
Right. I think that there'sagain, because there's this idea
that like that is true,altruistic work. And if you're
in corporate media, that's notright. Of how cutthroat and
exploitative it is, but Thetruth is that all of this is
existing in the same capitalistterrain. And it's all
(25:07):
exploitative. To an extent, thething is, is is, how much of
your values are you going tolean into every step of the way?
And I think for me, that was apart of the challenge. It was
like, well, let's see if it'spossible. And also, I know the
power of media. And so if we canradically shift the image of and
(25:30):
the stories that are being putout and this queer publication,
what can that mean? And so Iguess now, you know, I have to
give a little context for ourmagazine. So OUT magazine, is a
leading LGBTQ plus publication,it was founded in 1992. And it
(25:52):
overwhelmingly has centered awhite cisgender gay male lens.
Initially, there were twoeditors, their lead editors,
there was a gay man says gayman, assess lesbian, eventually,
she was kind of acid. And Idon't know all of the details,
(26:13):
but I believe there was alawsuit around harassment or
something that just didn't gelover. But, you know, I think
that kind of shift really, ispart of why the editorial
direction became more censoredon this kind of privilege, white
sis, gay male experience. Andthat is not reflective of the
(26:35):
community. You know, I know whenI say I'm in the LGBTQ plus
community, plenty of people, thefirst thing they think about is
why it says gay men, maybe at aPride Parade, you know, let's be
real, like, that is still whatthe image, at least in American
society is of our largercommunity. There's no
(26:56):
understanding that particularlyblack trans women and trans
people and queer people havebeen at the forefront of so much
of the momentum towards queerand trans liberation. I mean,
starting from the Stonewallriots, and on and on, I'll let
y'all Google that if y'all don'tknow about it, because I could
(27:19):
go on and on about that. Butthere have been so many voices
and experiences silenced inevery era of the LGBTQ plus
community here in the US thatdeserve the chance to shine. And
that was kind of our task wasto, to do that to uncover those
(27:39):
stories and voices. So the firstissue that I was deeply involved
with was the mothers anddaughters of the movement issue.
It was the first ever issue inour history.
Jessica Hartley (27:52):
And when you say the movement, this is the
Trans Women movement,particularly black trans women
and women of color. Yeah, Imean, black, queer and trans
women. So
Raquel Willis (28:02):
on the cover, we had Miss major who was a
stonewall era veteran andsomeone who's consistently done
work, particularly aroundsupporting Black trans folks who
have been incarcerated fordecades. You know, before you
know, now everyone's talkingabout, you know, abolition and
(28:22):
everything, right. She'sdefinitely been someone who's
been doing that work fordecades. And so she's on the
cover with black trans womannamed tourmaline, one of the
daughters and the set, who was afilmmaker but also has this kind
of deep radical politic hasuncovered so much archival
(28:44):
footage and work of people likeSylvia Rivera and and other
trans forebears of color,essentially. So. So that was the
cover. But then we also hadpeople like Charlene Carruthers,
Alicia Garza, one of the COcreators of Black Lives Matter.
And Barbara Smith and Og blackfeminist hero who was a part of
(29:09):
the Combahee River collectivewho released the landmark
statement in black feministhistory in the late 70s, which
kind of laid some of thefoundation for what Kimberly
Crenshaw would eventually coinedas intersectionality. So I mean,
there was there was some deepkind of statements being made
there about the fact that wehave essentially given so much
(29:33):
and been so maligned and ignoredfor generations. And a moment so
I was gonna
Jessica Hartley (29:43):
say, Yes, I mean, it's not a powerful,
historic, and again, you know,going back to this idea of the
ethics and the values and thepurpose and the impact. I mean,
we all know we've got to attackit from multiple angles. So yes,
this PLCs of the world and thework there is important. Yes,
(30:04):
the underground sort ofactivists and movements are
really important. But we've alsogot to attack it from the
broader sort of mass mediaperspective as well. So how just
historic in that moment to havea major publication in the
community that always in sort ofprimarily centered, you know,
(30:26):
white sis, LGBT LGB, really sortof folks in the community on
covers and articles and to startto see that shift. And we seen
it. So you continue that. Butyou know, OUT magazine, hence,
the name magazine, right, in anindustry, that is a lot of
people use the word dying, and Iam just like, it is evolving,
(30:48):
like anything else, right. Andso while they're great things
are also some challenges. And sotalk a little bit about some of
the challenges that you face,and really more of what somebody
would perceive from the outsidebeing an executive level role, a
leadership role, and sort of howthat those experiences, they're
both good and bad. And alsocontinuing, you're at that path
(31:10):
that you were on your own sortof personal mission and personal
projects, and how that sort ofwas then another leap or jumping
off point for you from there.
Yeah, I
Raquel Willis (31:22):
mean, it was it was a time and an opportunity to
really be able to showcase somany of the folks and the
stories that I had experiencedfirsthand in the years prior to
being out. And, of course, youknow, it, I think one of the
things we ended up learning was,you know, yes, you know, the
(31:45):
reins will be be handed over topeople on the margins, who have
a different kind of sensibility,at the critical time when those
resources are dwindling themost. So we inherited a, an
apparatus that was not asresources it could have been,
(32:08):
that was actually extractingmore out of contributors, and
folks who were kind of in thewheelhouse of our that did
either like freelance work, orall of these different things.
And that meant that a lot of ourrelationships and community were
in jeopardy, both personal andprofessional. The previous staff
(32:30):
had essentially been ousted,like a week before the first
folks from our era started, kindof without much notice. So the
so there are all these kind of,you know, unsavory things
happening, even before we gotthere. And then our budgets have
dwindled and dwindled, theemphasis on print started to
(32:55):
wane. So as we're doing thesehigh quality, highly conceptual
products, it started to be aboutwhat we want to keep up in the
digital space. But then therewasn't full support for the
folks who were contributing onthe digital side. And it was
just, we want you to do more,for less, we want you to do
more, for less. And that wasuntenable for virtually all of
(33:18):
us. And then eventually, ourmost of our era was laid off at
different points, includingmyself, right? So my tenure at
and out ended about a year andsome change later. Because I was
one of the probably the lastwoman standing for the most part
(33:40):
of our era. And that was sad,right? It was like you finally
get like the dream experienceand borrow time. And and we
worked it out. But you know, IThat's the nature I think of
also there being this kind ofdisparity between the staff and
(34:00):
the C suite, because the owneris a sis white, straight man who
isn't invested in our values,you know, who have, there's also
been an uncovered history ofsupporting anti LGBTQ efforts.
(34:21):
So you know that it's notaligned, right, which I think is
why we need to empowerindependent creators. And we
actually do need to be askingmore questions about where the
resources are coming from,because that does matter in the
grand scheme of things.
Jessica Hartley (34:40):
So how did you bounce back from that? I mean,
that and I'm sure some some ofour listeners, maybe plenty of
our listeners have been, youknow, we're in the middle still
of a pandemic. And, you know, wetalked earlier about 2008 and
sort of the bottom falling outof the economy, obviously A lot
of people lost their jobs then,and had challenges and troubles.
(35:03):
And then, you know, in the lastcouple of years during this
pandemic, and just all of theeconomic economic crises, people
have lost their jobs, how didyou bounce back? You bounce
back? I would say it's, again,another historic moment. But
talk to me about how you bounceback from that, and how that
then ultimately helped you makethe decision that you probably
(35:26):
need to be your own boss. Yeah.
Raquel Willis (35:29):
Well, I will say before the out saga was
completely over, I wasessentially offer the editor in
chief position, so to move up,but I also was offered a 50% pay
cut, essentially, that's howthey do us, you know, folks on
(35:50):
the margin, so obviously, thatwasn't going to work. But
leaving out happened. And thenit was about, I don't know, two
weeks later, the pandemic was infull for so I was unemployed,
just before the pandemic waskind of announced as like,
something that we were going toactually acknowledge
(36:12):
collectively. And I didn'treally know what was going to
happen. I was lucky, though, ina sense, because I kind of had a
thought, at least for about halfa year that this was going to be
untenable. So I had things forthe first time in my life,
(36:32):
really. And I was going to beable to at least, you know,
survive for a couple of months.
But I, I really continue to haveinterviews with different
places, trying to see what what,what would work, I continue to
freelance a bit, I just had toget crafty. And I think a lot of
a lot of us that that were kindof laid off during that era. And
(36:54):
it wasn't just the out. I mean,there were so many folks laid
off at different mediapublications as well, during
that time, and I started workingon my book, because I knew I
wanted to get a proposal done.
And then a mod armory happened.
So there was a different kind oforienting towards social justice
happening collectively. So thenI think that there was a space
(37:18):
for folks to want to glean fromwhat I had been talking about,
along with so many other peersfor years. And then, of course,
George Floyd was murdered. Andthat seismically shifted the
conversation around socialjustice it was so I mean, it's
wild to think of how much of aturn that was collectively. And
(37:42):
and I will be honest, you know,I think for me, and maybe other
activists and organizers andpeople in social justice work.
Prior to that, I did have asense of bitterness, because it
was like, Well, this is whatwe've been saying all along. Now
you want to come along and postyour black square and think that
(38:03):
you're in the know, and it'slike, oh, now you want to talk
about white supremacy. No, now,it's not like a word, we kind of
hush up. And so you know, sothat was a thing. But in the
aftermath of George Floyd, justtwo days later, there was a
black trans man murdered byTallahassee police named Tony
McDade, that got not I can'teven say really a fraction of
(38:28):
the coverage of that guy. And itwas, again, another moment of
kind of realizing, Oh, we'reacting collectively as if we're
incapable to have multipleconversations at once. We can
talk about anti blackness, wecan talk about anti trans
sentiment at the same time. Andthen I worked with a group of an
(38:50):
ad hoc group of organizers andactivists, many of them first
time organizers here in NewYork, some of them friends and
folks who had done other typesof work. And there we craft in
Brooklyn liberation, which wasgoing to be a rally in an honor
black trans lives on June20 2020. And,
Jessica Hartley (39:20):
again, another historic moment. I mean, I
thought we did a weird even getinto so you had been obviously
invited a couple years before tothe women's march in were part
of that. And that was sort ofthat, you know, part of your
journey. And I found that, Idon't know, it was just such a
(39:40):
poignant moment to then see,obviously, that was a women's
march and there were a lot ofchallenges with that. That's a
whole nother episode by itself.
But to see then, the rally and Imean, you use the word rally,
and we use the word rally. Imean, you guys had 1000s of
people. Yeah,
Raquel Willis (40:01):
I mean, upwards of 20,000, by some estimates,
but at the very least 15,000.
And you know, which is probablythe largest rally for trans
lives, in the history of theworld, maybe right. And so, I
mean, that was a powerfulmoment. And I And it felt like a
(40:22):
culminating moment of so manythings that I had been a part of
that my peers had been a part ofover the last several years. And
a convergence, right. So in thelast episode, we were talking
about how, you know, oranges,the new black premiered and the
transmissibility era kind ofstarted, and then the George
(40:44):
Zimmerman trial happened, andthe verdict came down that same
week, and that is seen as aseminal moment in the history of
Black Lives Matter. And for solong. I mean, I never saw these
things as completelydisconnected from each other.
Because obviously, my life, mymany of my peers, and friends
(41:07):
didn't either, but this wasdefinitely a very distinct
convergent point of, oh, blacktrans people exist. And we're
going to name that andacknowledge that and acknowledge
all the lives loss. And so itwas a powerful moment. I mean,
the most powerful moment of mylife, hands down. And so what
(41:30):
happened was, we had like alineup of black trans leaders
speak, I was one of thespeakers. And that drastically
changed it count how many peoplesaw me, because it really was a
moment of final like, I don'twant to say finally being seen,
(41:55):
because it's not that you cankind of really anticipate those
type of moments. But I think itwas a moment where I felt very
acknowledged in a way that I hadnot been right. And, and for me,
it you know, it isn't just thatI was acknowledged, but it was
just that the black transparenceexperience in general black
(42:17):
trans power, black transbrilliance was acknowledged. And
it was about the acknowledgingthe acknowledgement of our
ancestors, the acknowledgementof so many peers I've learned so
much from and who continued todo the work like Tony, Michelle
Williams, one of my dear friendsdown in Atlanta, Georgia, who
leads up solutions, notpunishments, collaborative. And
(42:39):
my friend RSI, he did who is theExecutive Director of the
transgender district out in SanFrancisco, California. And
Mariah Moore, who I was speakingabout earlier, though, I didn't
say her name, who started ahouse to live ran for office in
New Orleans, and so many moreblack trans women in particular,
who were doing this work day inand day out, you know, it that
(43:01):
moment, you know, I think, hasbeen attached to me, but it
really, I am nothing without mycommunity, you know, and
particularly my other sisterswho are doing the work. And so
that was, that was a revelatorymoment. Yeah.
Jessica Hartley (43:22):
So, no, that's great. That's great. There's
always so much and we got tosave some stuff for the book. So
let's talk quickly as we wrapabout the book. So you have had
in your video, we're laughingabout quarter of a century in
last episode, yo, in your 30years, and we would say that is
(43:46):
still a short lifetime. On thisearth. You've made such a big
impact, you know, just on mepersonally, and family and
friends, but literally on theworld. And there's so much to
your story and experiences andto the point that you're making,
the collective experiences ofothers, the experiences of our
(44:08):
ancestors, and our family andour forefathers and foremothers
and four parent who have sort ofpaved the way for us. And you're
taking a lot of your experiencesand wrapping that into a memoir.
So talk quickly about the memoirand sort of that process. And
(44:29):
any advice you have for those ofus out here who might have
ideas, or no dreams of writing abook or writing a memoir, and
how we can get started. Yeah,
Raquel Willis (44:46):
wow. You know, the book is so funny in writing
this book, I felt like I've beencompletely humbled. I've had to
extend so much more grace tomyself and to my story, you know
it because it's a memoir, I'vehad to excavate trauma. And I've
(45:06):
had to think about the ways thatI that I have seen the world
that may not have been asaccurate because now with
hindsight, more tools tounderstand things, it is, the
story is a bit wider than maybeI thought it was at certain
points. And that's just thenature of life. But I'm really
telling the story of my journeyinto activism and to social. I
(45:32):
felt like it would be veryresonant, especially in a post,
George Floyd moments or, or era,I guess, really, because I think
we're still kind of in some typeof reckoning around what it
means to continue life, knowingthe fallacies that exist about
(45:54):
our systems and the ways thatthey impact us. And so I just
kind of tell this, the the storyof how I went from not really
knowing what my purpose was thehaving more of an idea of what
it is right, I don't have it allfigured out. And I'm not trying
(46:15):
to give a step by step anything.
But that I'm telling a lot ofwhat I've told in this episode,
but with a little bit morecontext, and also with the
vantage point that my experienceas a black trans woman, and my
voice as a black trans womanmatters. And so what I have seen
of the political landscape, frommy vantage point as something
(46:36):
the world needs to know, what Ihave seen the various social
justice movements from myvantage point, is something the
world needs to know and contendwith and consider. And I hope
that that will inspire otherfolks to tell their stories. And
I guess the tips within that isjust, everyone's creative
(46:57):
process is different. You know,so figure out what works for
you, I am a messy girl, I do notfollow rubrics perfectly, I
might follow a rubric, like, athird of the way and then Amanda
in it, rip it up and, and dosomething else. And then
Jessica Hartley (47:22):
shout out to Gemini, Gemini,
Raquel Willis (47:25):
back in back together be
Jessica Hartley (47:26):
like, wait, wait, wait,
Raquel Willis (47:28):
you know, but you know, and so it's also been me
kind of, kind of dealing withthat too. But it's that, you
know, it just get it out howeverit is, and maybe it's not a
book, you know, in nartz as anarticle, and then you're like,
Okay, I want to expand here orthere and do do a series of
(47:51):
articles or blog posts, or maybeit's not writing at all, and
maybe you are a musician or avisual artists, you know, I
mean, we can tell our stories inso many ways. And that's also
that's also what I'm excitedabout too, is you know,
eventually being able to look atother mediums and, and tell
(48:13):
other stories in different ways,too. So. So it is art from an
expression for me, too. It's notjust, you know, I do think that
there's a culture of like, writea book, so you can capitalize
off of it and make money. But,you know, I want to create a
tome that will stand the test oftime and be something that like
(48:37):
future generations of transfolks, even though they probably
won't even call themselves transanymore, can look back and be
like, oh, somebody thought aboutme in advance that they left
this.
Jessica Hartley (48:50):
I love that.
And we'll wrap it there. Thankyou, Raquel. Thank you, sister,
friend. I love you so much.
Thank you for sharing yourjourney, the ins and outs, all
the things so many juicy bits,as I like to say, as part of
this conversation and I can'twait can't wait for your book to
debut. And for us to have youback again to talk a little bit
(49:13):
more about that. And whateverprojects you I have marinating
in brewing on the horizon. Iappreciate you so much. Thank
you for your time and yourenergy today. Thank you. Thank
you for listening to anotherepisode of hustle, grind, shine
and reignite. If you liked thisepisode, like subscribe and
(49:36):
share on all your favoritepodcast. I hope you'll tune in
to the next episode featuringanother amazing and talented,
professional color. In themeantime, shine bright
Welcome to the hustle grind shine and reignite
podcast. I'm your host, JessicaHartley. Join me on another
journey with amazing andtalented professionals of color,
laugh and cry and take notes.
But most of all be inspired allof this and more on our next
episode of hustle, grind, shine,and reignite. Let's go. Hello
(00:24):
and welcome to another episodeof hustle, grind, shine and
reignite. I am your host,Jessica Hartley. It is my
pleasure to bring you anothershow. This is a special episode
because it is a part two, acontinuation of my conversation
(00:46):
with Raquel Willis. She's awriter, activist, media
strategist. And mostimportantly, she is my sister.
I'm so excited to welcome youback to the show. Hello says
how's it going? She
Raquel Willis (01:01):
brought me back.
Well, I'm glad to continue thisconversation with you. It's so
fun. Oh, yes.
Jessica Hartley (01:11):
And we have so much more ground to cover we
covered so much in the firstconversation. And where we left
off in episode one was talkingabout your transition, this big,
life changing movement, you wentfrom Atlanta to the bay, moving
out to Oakland, and really sortof bringing your passion and
(01:36):
your purpose, life and worktogether in this new role with
TLC, also known as theTransgender Law Center, and the
place where you thought it wasgoing to be a home for you.
You're going into what many ofus actually don't get often,
which is into an environmentwhere the majority of the people
(01:59):
are like you. And so let's startthere. Talk to us about what it
felt like to make that leap fromthe Deep South. ATL shouting, if
you will, out into the bay,which is me, you and I know,
California West Coast sentimentsare very different than ours.
(02:22):
Shoot, let's be clear.
Everybody's different westcoast, black people in the West
Coast different than blackpeople down south is just a
different life and livedexperience. So talk a little bit
about that transition, and whatit was like to move into an
environment with people maybenot exactly having the same
experiences as you, but anenvironment when there are lots
(02:45):
of other trans individuals therewith you in the struggle
together. Yeah, wow.
Raquel Willis (02:54):
It felt very heartening and inspiring. I
mean, this also was just sixmonths before the start of the
Trump era. So it also was like ashort kind of honeymoon type
period where it was like, Oh,this is great. There's so much
(03:17):
promise and potential here. Andthat still existed even as kind
of the Trump era hit his stride.
But of course, you know, I thinksome some of that kind of
boundless excitement or wasoptimism. The optimism was done
a bit, because we were facingthe reality as people working in
(03:40):
the heart of social justice,that there were going to be new
threats to literally ourexistence. I mean, some of the
first directives put down byformer President Trump 45 was
around restricting the rights oftrans students to attest to
(04:04):
their truth of being who theyare using the right pronouns
being respected in theiridentities and schools. Of
course, there was the militaryman against trans folks who
decide to serve in the military,which I have my own kind of
personal reservations, but we'renot going to go down that route.
(04:24):
About American imperialism. But,you know, i There were just all
of these signals that it wasgoing to be difficult and in
fact, I one of the vividmemories of that time was
watching the election returnswith all of these kind of senior
trans folks who have been doingsocial justice work since the
(04:48):
early 2000s. And they kind ofunderstood or had a surety that
Trump was gonna win, right. Andso that was interesting to me.
Because I I guess came in withkind of like a naivete about
these things. And I was like,There's no way there's no way it
could get that bad.
Jessica Hartley (05:08):
Right. I mean, also, let's be clear. The
election was the we want to talkabout stolen elections. That was
a stolen election. Right. So weknow who won. We know who should
have won. But yeah, I mean, Ithink we all were naive. And
let's be clear, unless use thereal word. We were delusional.
(05:31):
We were delusional in thinkingthat this country will had
progressed as far as it had. Andwe all knew everybody was like,
oh, President Obama, everythinghas changed, right? There was
this whole period of post racialall of this. And we all knew
that was nonsense. But I don'tthink we, some of us, I
(05:51):
shouldn't say everybody, there'sa lot of people were like, this
is gonna happen. I think a lotof us were just that, again,
that hope that optimism thatthis country, wasn't that racist
that your neighbor wasn't thatracist, you know, putting their
own self interest so far aheadat the literally the lives and
(06:12):
benefit of people of color,queer folks of trans folks. So I
think we all were hope sohopeful that it wasn't going to
be that bad. And it was itreally was. Yeah, I
Raquel Willis (06:24):
mean, I I totally agree. And I think the other
piece of it too, is that we havethis kind of unquestioned faith
in America systems, and thissystems of our government, and
all of these different things,these processes that are only as
(06:48):
benevolent as the people whohave the reins, you know, our
government isn't sure by anymeans. In fact, most of the
history of this country has beentried to and oppression and
trying to one up or furthermarginalize certain groups. And,
(07:11):
you know, so I think that andwithin itself, that kind of
skepticism of and criticism ofin our existing infrastructures
also paralleled I think, whatwas becoming for me and some of
the other younger staffers orfolks who didn't necessarily
(07:31):
have titles and roles thatconferred a certain type of
power, a kind of critique of,well, how are these systems of
oppression also playing out inthis workplace? That is
supposedly the most progressivespot in the world? Right? And,
yes, yeah, I was surrounded bylargely trans folks, but not
(07:54):
mostly black trans people. Andso there was definitely anti
blackness that kind of revealeditself in the the ways that
certain people would be promotedover other folks, certain people
would have kind of space forthem to carve out their
initiatives, or what theythought should be the agenda at
(08:16):
the expense of people who areconsidered the most marginalized
in our community, black transpeople, but are hardly ever
given the resources to actuallycarry out the work we need to
do. And so we had all thisprogramming that was focused on
so many other groups, but nonethat was specifically focused on
black trans people. None, I wasfocused on specifically how our
(08:41):
community was experiencingviolence. And I wasn't the only
black trans person there, I haveto give so much kudos. So one of
my I consider him almost like anolder brother in my head, but oh
law of San Jose, he actuallykind of led the start of
censoring black trans folks whenhe started the Black LGBTQ
(09:02):
migrant project. So doing workaround Black trans people in
particular, who were migrantswho were experiencing oppression
on those differentintersections. And then I also
took some, I guess, kind of apush of wanting to censor black
(09:25):
trans women, and figuring outhow we can kind of alleviate the
violence that was already anepidemic. I mean, before the
American Medical Associationwould years later, deem it a
real epidemic, and then peoplewould start to take it
seriously. And you start to seemore and more news coverage with
the sensational headlines aboutanother black trans woman
(09:47):
murder. And as we're recordinganother fact, black trans woman,
the 50 of this year, courted amurder today so so I wanted to
do work there. But I wanted todo a different kind of work, you
know, I think we have to carveout space, of course to honor
(10:09):
the victims who are no longerhere. And of course, we have to
acknowledge that there arevictims that are left behind the
survivor of that violence, theblack trans women who have to go
on and try and continue to carveout a life and a society that
still is so antagonistic towardsthem. And so I started to study
(10:33):
a bit about Healing Justice, Ilearned about these models of
Healing Justice, restorativejustice, oftentimes, they build
out the circles where you kindof confront someone who has
committed harm, and figure out Iguess, a way of kind of what
rehabilitation looks like forthem to kind of, hopefully,
(10:57):
eventually come back fully intotheir communities. I wanted to
take that concept and focusspecifically on centering
victims, right, like, so whatdoes that look like? Because we
also have to figure out what itmeans to come back into a
society that we have brokentrust with. Right,
Jessica Hartley (11:18):
right. Think about when you talk about broken
trust, right? We already know insociety that we have issues with
how we view women, and how weview violence and how we think
about victims, right? I mean,just even white women, we look
at White women that are vilifiedin the media in the workplace.
So again, if you look at sort ofabove, and like all of those
(11:41):
things, that if white women andwhite victims are continually
marginalized in victimvictimized even in the media,
like we've talked about sort ofrepeat trauma, I mean, how does
that drill down to women ofcolor? And then Black, Brown and
indigenous individuals as well?
So, yes, we're even still notthere as a broader society when
(12:03):
it comes to women at large, letalone women of color, let alone
trans women and black transwomen. Yeah, I mean, absolutely.
And so
Raquel Willis (12:13):
you know, I guess back into maybe the workplace
well, because I, I have allthese different cylinders firing
at once all the time. It wasabout building and internal
proposal to our organizing team,which I had never done. And it
was also about trying to appealto like, how we get the
(12:36):
resources to carry out theproject was full of a vision as
possible. And so there was, onceI put myself out there was like,
Okay, this is what I'm thinkingy'all might think I'm wild off
base, they were like, no,actually, this is great. Like,
let's do it. There wasn't quitefull investment. Right. It was
like, you know, we're investedin this kind of trial of it. And
(13:01):
so we we did the trial in NewOrleans, we had about 12 Black
trans women from the localcommunity come in, many of them
knew each other but had neverhad space to just be together,
talk about their experiences,heal together. And you know,
whether we crafted any kind of,quote, tangible, unquote
(13:26):
solutions out of that thesolution was already there was
that we just had space to breakbread together, and it turned
into a really powerfulexperience. And from that space,
actually, many of the womenbolstered their efforts locally
to do different things. Onefriend who came out of that and
(13:47):
also became the kind of I guess,I don't know air I don't know
she's the the next person tokind of weed that for after I
and
Jessica Hartley (13:55):
protege. We'll call him a protege.
Raquel Willis (13:58):
Oh, that's weird.
But, but she is my friend andand she took the helm. Once I
ended up obviously, eventuallyleaving TLC of the program and
continued to make it even evenmore magnificent than I could
have imagined. He ran for officeand New Orleans for about a
student council for CityCouncil, which was so
(14:20):
phenomenal. So she has kind ofstarted this political career,
other women involved. I mean,she also worked with another
woman to kind of create ahousing initiative, they are
kind of sparked from some of theenergy from that space. And she
says that herself. And then andthen there's an another woman
(14:41):
who continued to do deeper workon a campaign to kind of break
down some of the, the laws thatkind of allowed profiling of
trans women in particular,they're called crimes against
humanity, law or crimes. Naturelaws in Louisiana, right. And so
basically, you know, there's alot of like profiling that
(15:04):
happens from law enforcement oftrans people, that's kind of
okay. Because it's kind of bakedinto the fabric of the legal
system. And they they're doingwork to push against that. So
that was I mean, one of the mostpowerful things I've ever been a
part of and and groups I've everbeen a part of. And now it's
(15:27):
actually central programming andthe organization even though I'm
no longer there, it is one oftheir kind of central pieces of
programming, but it took work toget there. I mean, it took
having experiences of feelingsilenced of moving between roles
that required more work and moretravel, that I did not get a
(15:49):
raise for learning that my transmasculine peers in the same
department who were doing thesame work. Were getting paid
more way more than I was, as atrans woman, you know, so it's
also like the gender pay gap isstill exists, even amongst, you
(16:12):
know, trans folks, right,because that's how enduring the
patriarchy is. So yeah, but I,but overall, I mean, it was a
push and, and I'm so gratefulfor the folks who continue to be
in that institution and continueto try and shift dynamics,
particularly towards a blacktrans liberation.
Jessica Hartley (16:38):
Yeah, no, what an amazing legacy, also, to your
point of getting it off theground, but also the continued
impact, that the experiencesthat those trans women are
having, as connected to theircircles, now going out in having
(16:58):
more power and safe spaces, inthe tools by which they can
activate. And and I mean, wow,running for office. I mean, how
tremendous is that? And now is Iunderstand there are more
circles around the country.
Correct. So it's not just in NewOrleans,
Raquel Willis (17:16):
they are still doing work. So I mean, they are
crafting out different spaces, Ibelieve they are another one in
Dallas. So the plan was alwaysto continue that expansion. So I
know, there's always work goingon there.
Jessica Hartley (17:32):
So you were there, you started this amazing
project, along with lots ofother work that you were doing.
I mean, this was a sort offlagship project for you, but
you still had otherresponsibilities and duties. And
you talked about having totravel and you were, you know,
being an activist and supportingothers around the country. So
(17:55):
here you are out supportingothers. But then you've also
talked about this parallel thatyou're experiencing here in an
environment that again, walkinginto this environment, here are
people who are like me have hadsome similar experiences, but
you are experiencing some of thesame things that you would have
experienced in some of yourprevious roles and potentially
(18:15):
in future roles. So there'salmost this sort of disconnect
of empowering and supportingothers, but where is your
empowerment and support to talkabout how that was then the
catalyst for you to then makeyour next move? Yeah,
Raquel Willis (18:32):
I mean, internally, and there were just
so many conflicts. I mean, Iwasn't the only one filling the
sense of like, disparity betweencertain people's experiences. I
mean, there, there was,obviously, the anti blackness,
there are people filling theableism. Right, you know,
(18:53):
dealing with different crisesand not having support from
leadership there had never, youknow, for instance, been a black
trans director up until thatpoint, despite the core
programming moving towardscentering black trans people
finally, and then there was sucha disparity between leadership
(19:17):
staff and the rest of the staff,right, like in terms of
communication, so many differentthings. So, around the time that
all of that was happening, I hadbeen asked by Philip McCarty of
Teen Vogue fame, you was in theConde Nast house for a long time
(19:38):
and really made a name forhimself as an editor, putting
social justice themes and reallyin a lot of ways modernizing the
editorial output of Teen Vogue.
He made the move to OUT magazinewhich I knew because I mean, I
followed media particularlyqueer media. And he asked me if
(19:59):
I would come to out to beessentially his second in
command as Executive Editor,leading the print operations.
And so that was a wild. I mean,it wasn't anything I anticipated
at that time. kind of segue intomagazines, because I always love
(20:22):
magazines, as I said in thefirst episode, but it just never
seemed like there was a path forme. And, and Phil and I are
great friends, you know, andalso, we've had these very
different experiences, you know,he grew up in the Northeast, and
so this, this is his, like,playground, essentially. And,
(20:43):
you know, he's had had, at thatpoint, years of, like, contacts
and networking, and this kind ofpedigree and publications,
interning, you know, atdifferent publications being a
part of these experiences that Ijust didn't have, you know, and
(21:06):
I think for me, it was also asense of working through my own
imposter syndrome of like, butwhat I did have, and what he
made clear all along the way waslike, but you do have a
particular voice lens,worldview, and you represent
something that we desperatelyneed in media, you know, and,
(21:28):
and I appreciate that so much,you know, and I have to give him
kudos, because he has big up tome, ever since we met, and so
that that was really powerful.
And so I had to decide, youknow, it's like, well, at this
point, you know, I'm known asthis activist, can I still be
(21:50):
that and continue on in atraditional kind of media job,
you know, my whole entireexistence, and a lot of it is
persona, I won't necessarily saybrand. But there is a bit of a
persona attached to becomingknown as a public activists, and
(22:12):
all of these checklists, someinvisible and and, you know, and
visible, that you have to checkoff because credibility matters.
And, you know, people see youessentially have like a sellout
or, you know, that you werenever really here for community
in the first place, then who areyou anymore? And do they still
(22:35):
see what you've done as genuineand what you will do as genuine?
And so I think, for me, and Istill carry that, you know,
that's not something that I justthought about in that moment,
but it's something I continue tocare about, carry about with me,
around integrity, am I doingthings that are aligned with the
(22:59):
values I profess all along theway?
Jessica Hartley (23:02):
Right, right.
And always that balance ofserving others, but also still
serving yourself, right, westill have to serve ourselves in
this process. And I, I find evenbeing on the, you know, quote,
unquote, more corporate side ofthings, that that is something
really critical to me and I havefound as I have moved up the
(23:23):
ladder and, and advanced in mycareer, my personal ethics, and
how I am viewed is so criticalto me, it is not just about my
brand, but it is literally coreto who I am, you know, if that
does not align, or starts to,you know, start to diverge with
(23:46):
what I'm seeing within anorganization, those start to be
the signs and red flags, thatit's time to leave. So you made
the decision. You said yes, youhad left media journalism, and
sort of went into the nonprofitspace. And then you got this
call from Phil. Amazing, Phil.
(24:08):
And he was like, Girl, I needyou come on over. And you said
yes. You said yes. And oh, mg.
This is your ticket to New York.
It's finally here,
Raquel Willis (24:21):
or Yeah, yeah. I mean, and it was. That was very
exciting. Obviously, it'ssomething I always had one to.
Yeah, I mean, and I will say,you know, I think there was a
sense of it being noble to beworking in the nonprofit sector.
(24:43):
Right. I think that there'sagain, because there's this idea
that like that is true,altruistic work. And if you're
in corporate media, that's notright. Of how cutthroat and
exploitative it is, but Thetruth is that all of this is
existing in the same capitalistterrain. And it's all
(25:07):
exploitative. To an extent, thething is, is is, how much of
your values are you going tolean into every step of the way?
And I think for me, that was apart of the challenge. It was
like, well, let's see if it'spossible. And also, I know the
power of media. And so if we canradically shift the image of and
(25:30):
the stories that are being putout and this queer publication,
what can that mean? And so Iguess now, you know, I have to
give a little context for ourmagazine. So OUT magazine, is a
leading LGBTQ plus publication,it was founded in 1992. And it
(25:52):
overwhelmingly has centered awhite cisgender gay male lens.
Initially, there were twoeditors, their lead editors,
there was a gay man says gayman, assess lesbian, eventually,
she was kind of acid. And Idon't know all of the details,
(26:13):
but I believe there was alawsuit around harassment or
something that just didn't gelover. But, you know, I think
that kind of shift really, ispart of why the editorial
direction became more censoredon this kind of privilege, white
sis, gay male experience. Andthat is not reflective of the
(26:35):
community. You know, I know whenI say I'm in the LGBTQ plus
community, plenty of people, thefirst thing they think about is
why it says gay men, maybe at aPride Parade, you know, let's be
real, like, that is still whatthe image, at least in American
society is of our largercommunity. There's no
(26:56):
understanding that particularlyblack trans women and trans
people and queer people havebeen at the forefront of so much
of the momentum towards queerand trans liberation. I mean,
starting from the Stonewallriots, and on and on, I'll let
y'all Google that if y'all don'tknow about it, because I could
(27:19):
go on and on about that. Butthere have been so many voices
and experiences silenced inevery era of the LGBTQ plus
community here in the US thatdeserve the chance to shine. And
that was kind of our task wasto, to do that to uncover those
(27:39):
stories and voices. So the firstissue that I was deeply involved
with was the mothers anddaughters of the movement issue.
It was the first ever issue inour history.
Jessica Hartley (27:52):
And when you say the movement, this is the
Trans Women movement,particularly black trans women
and women of color. Yeah, Imean, black, queer and trans
women. So
Raquel Willis (28:02):
on the cover, we had Miss major who was a
stonewall era veteran andsomeone who's consistently done
work, particularly aroundsupporting Black trans folks who
have been incarcerated fordecades. You know, before you
know, now everyone's talkingabout, you know, abolition and
(28:22):
everything, right. She'sdefinitely been someone who's
been doing that work fordecades. And so she's on the
cover with black trans womannamed tourmaline, one of the
daughters and the set, who was afilmmaker but also has this kind
of deep radical politic hasuncovered so much archival
(28:44):
footage and work of people likeSylvia Rivera and and other
trans forebears of color,essentially. So. So that was the
cover. But then we also hadpeople like Charlene Carruthers,
Alicia Garza, one of the COcreators of Black Lives Matter.
And Barbara Smith and Og blackfeminist hero who was a part of
(29:09):
the Combahee River collectivewho released the landmark
statement in black feministhistory in the late 70s, which
kind of laid some of thefoundation for what Kimberly
Crenshaw would eventually coinedas intersectionality. So I mean,
there was there was some deepkind of statements being made
there about the fact that wehave essentially given so much
(29:33):
and been so maligned and ignoredfor generations. And a moment so
I was gonna
Jessica Hartley (29:43):
say, Yes, I mean, it's not a powerful,
historic, and again, you know,going back to this idea of the
ethics and the values and thepurpose and the impact. I mean,
we all know we've got to attackit from multiple angles. So yes,
this PLCs of the world and thework there is important. Yes,
(30:04):
the underground sort ofactivists and movements are
really important. But we've alsogot to attack it from the
broader sort of mass mediaperspective as well. So how just
historic in that moment to havea major publication in the
community that always in sort ofprimarily centered, you know,
(30:26):
white sis, LGBT LGB, really sortof folks in the community on
covers and articles and to startto see that shift. And we seen
it. So you continue that. Butyou know, OUT magazine, hence,
the name magazine, right, in anindustry, that is a lot of
people use the word dying, and Iam just like, it is evolving,
(30:48):
like anything else, right. Andso while they're great things
are also some challenges. And sotalk a little bit about some of
the challenges that you face,and really more of what somebody
would perceive from the outsidebeing an executive level role, a
leadership role, and sort of howthat those experiences, they're
both good and bad. And alsocontinuing, you're at that path
(31:10):
that you were on your own sortof personal mission and personal
projects, and how that sort ofwas then another leap or jumping
off point for you from there.
Yeah, I
Raquel Willis (31:22):
mean, it was it was a time and an opportunity to
really be able to showcase somany of the folks and the
stories that I had experiencedfirsthand in the years prior to
being out. And, of course, youknow, it, I think one of the
things we ended up learning was,you know, yes, you know, the
(31:45):
reins will be be handed over topeople on the margins, who have
a different kind of sensibility,at the critical time when those
resources are dwindling themost. So we inherited a, an
apparatus that was not asresources it could have been,
(32:08):
that was actually extractingmore out of contributors, and
folks who were kind of in thewheelhouse of our that did
either like freelance work, orall of these different things.
And that meant that a lot of ourrelationships and community were
in jeopardy, both personal andprofessional. The previous staff
(32:30):
had essentially been ousted,like a week before the first
folks from our era started, kindof without much notice. So the
so there are all these kind of,you know, unsavory things
happening, even before we gotthere. And then our budgets have
dwindled and dwindled, theemphasis on print started to
(32:55):
wane. So as we're doing thesehigh quality, highly conceptual
products, it started to be aboutwhat we want to keep up in the
digital space. But then therewasn't full support for the
folks who were contributing onthe digital side. And it was
just, we want you to do more,for less, we want you to do
more, for less. And that wasuntenable for virtually all of
(33:18):
us. And then eventually, ourmost of our era was laid off at
different points, includingmyself, right? So my tenure at
and out ended about a year andsome change later. Because I was
one of the probably the lastwoman standing for the most part
(33:40):
of our era. And that was sad,right? It was like you finally
get like the dream experienceand borrow time. And and we
worked it out. But you know, IThat's the nature I think of
also there being this kind ofdisparity between the staff and
(34:00):
the C suite, because the owneris a sis white, straight man who
isn't invested in our values,you know, who have, there's also
been an uncovered history ofsupporting anti LGBTQ efforts.
(34:21):
So you know that it's notaligned, right, which I think is
why we need to empowerindependent creators. And we
actually do need to be askingmore questions about where the
resources are coming from,because that does matter in the
grand scheme of things.
Jessica Hartley (34:40):
So how did you bounce back from that? I mean,
that and I'm sure some some ofour listeners, maybe plenty of
our listeners have been, youknow, we're in the middle still
of a pandemic. And, you know, wetalked earlier about 2008 and
sort of the bottom falling outof the economy, obviously A lot
of people lost their jobs then,and had challenges and troubles.
(35:03):
And then, you know, in the lastcouple of years during this
pandemic, and just all of theeconomic economic crises, people
have lost their jobs, how didyou bounce back? You bounce
back? I would say it's, again,another historic moment. But
talk to me about how you bounceback from that, and how that
then ultimately helped you makethe decision that you probably
(35:26):
need to be your own boss. Yeah.
Raquel Willis (35:29):
Well, I will say before the out saga was
completely over, I wasessentially offer the editor in
chief position, so to move up,but I also was offered a 50% pay
cut, essentially, that's howthey do us, you know, folks on
(35:50):
the margin, so obviously, thatwasn't going to work. But
leaving out happened. And thenit was about, I don't know, two
weeks later, the pandemic was infull for so I was unemployed,
just before the pandemic waskind of announced as like,
something that we were going toactually acknowledge
(36:12):
collectively. And I didn'treally know what was going to
happen. I was lucky, though, ina sense, because I kind of had a
thought, at least for about halfa year that this was going to be
untenable. So I had things forthe first time in my life,
(36:32):
really. And I was going to beable to at least, you know,
survive for a couple of months.
But I, I really continue to haveinterviews with different
places, trying to see what what,what would work, I continue to
freelance a bit, I just had toget crafty. And I think a lot of
a lot of us that that were kindof laid off during that era. And
(36:54):
it wasn't just the out. I mean,there were so many folks laid
off at different mediapublications as well, during
that time, and I started workingon my book, because I knew I
wanted to get a proposal done.
And then a mod armory happened.
So there was a different kind oforienting towards social justice
happening collectively. So thenI think that there was a space
(37:18):
for folks to want to glean fromwhat I had been talking about,
along with so many other peersfor years. And then, of course,
George Floyd was murdered. Andthat seismically shifted the
conversation around socialjustice it was so I mean, it's
wild to think of how much of aturn that was collectively. And
(37:42):
and I will be honest, you know,I think for me, and maybe other
activists and organizers andpeople in social justice work.
Prior to that, I did have asense of bitterness, because it
was like, Well, this is whatwe've been saying all along. Now
you want to come along and postyour black square and think that
(38:03):
you're in the know, and it'slike, oh, now you want to talk
about white supremacy. No, now,it's not like a word, we kind of
hush up. And so you know, sothat was a thing. But in the
aftermath of George Floyd, justtwo days later, there was a
black trans man murdered byTallahassee police named Tony
McDade, that got not I can'teven say really a fraction of
(38:28):
the coverage of that guy. And itwas, again, another moment of
kind of realizing, Oh, we'reacting collectively as if we're
incapable to have multipleconversations at once. We can
talk about anti blackness, wecan talk about anti trans
sentiment at the same time. Andthen I worked with a group of an
(38:50):
ad hoc group of organizers andactivists, many of them first
time organizers here in NewYork, some of them friends and
folks who had done other typesof work. And there we craft in
Brooklyn liberation, which wasgoing to be a rally in an honor
black trans lives on June20 2020. And,
Jessica Hartley (39:20):
again, another historic moment. I mean, I
thought we did a weird even getinto so you had been obviously
invited a couple years before tothe women's march in were part
of that. And that was sort ofthat, you know, part of your
journey. And I found that, Idon't know, it was just such a
(39:40):
poignant moment to then see,obviously, that was a women's
march and there were a lot ofchallenges with that. That's a
whole nother episode by itself.
But to see then, the rally and Imean, you use the word rally,
and we use the word rally. Imean, you guys had 1000s of
people. Yeah,
Raquel Willis (40:01):
I mean, upwards of 20,000, by some estimates,
but at the very least 15,000.
And you know, which is probablythe largest rally for trans
lives, in the history of theworld, maybe right. And so, I
mean, that was a powerfulmoment. And I And it felt like a
(40:22):
culminating moment of so manythings that I had been a part of
that my peers had been a part ofover the last several years. And
a convergence, right. So in thelast episode, we were talking
about how, you know, oranges,the new black premiered and the
transmissibility era kind ofstarted, and then the George
(40:44):
Zimmerman trial happened, andthe verdict came down that same
week, and that is seen as aseminal moment in the history of
Black Lives Matter. And for solong. I mean, I never saw these
things as completelydisconnected from each other.
Because obviously, my life, mymany of my peers, and friends
(41:07):
didn't either, but this wasdefinitely a very distinct
convergent point of, oh, blacktrans people exist. And we're
going to name that andacknowledge that and acknowledge
all the lives loss. And so itwas a powerful moment. I mean,
the most powerful moment of mylife, hands down. And so what
(41:30):
happened was, we had like alineup of black trans leaders
speak, I was one of thespeakers. And that drastically
changed it count how many peoplesaw me, because it really was a
moment of final like, I don'twant to say finally being seen,
(41:55):
because it's not that you cankind of really anticipate those
type of moments. But I think itwas a moment where I felt very
acknowledged in a way that I hadnot been right. And, and for me,
it you know, it isn't just thatI was acknowledged, but it was
just that the black transparenceexperience in general black
(42:17):
trans power, black transbrilliance was acknowledged. And
it was about the acknowledgingthe acknowledgement of our
ancestors, the acknowledgementof so many peers I've learned so
much from and who continued todo the work like Tony, Michelle
Williams, one of my dear friendsdown in Atlanta, Georgia, who
leads up solutions, notpunishments, collaborative. And
(42:39):
my friend RSI, he did who is theExecutive Director of the
transgender district out in SanFrancisco, California. And
Mariah Moore, who I was speakingabout earlier, though, I didn't
say her name, who started ahouse to live ran for office in
New Orleans, and so many moreblack trans women in particular,
who were doing this work day inand day out, you know, it that
(43:01):
moment, you know, I think, hasbeen attached to me, but it
really, I am nothing without mycommunity, you know, and
particularly my other sisterswho are doing the work. And so
that was, that was a revelatorymoment. Yeah.
Jessica Hartley (43:22):
So, no, that's great. That's great. There's
always so much and we got tosave some stuff for the book. So
let's talk quickly as we wrapabout the book. So you have had
in your video, we're laughingabout quarter of a century in
last episode, yo, in your 30years, and we would say that is
(43:46):
still a short lifetime. On thisearth. You've made such a big
impact, you know, just on mepersonally, and family and
friends, but literally on theworld. And there's so much to
your story and experiences andto the point that you're making,
the collective experiences ofothers, the experiences of our
(44:08):
ancestors, and our family andour forefathers and foremothers
and four parent who have sort ofpaved the way for us. And you're
taking a lot of your experiencesand wrapping that into a memoir.
So talk quickly about the memoirand sort of that process. And
(44:29):
any advice you have for those ofus out here who might have
ideas, or no dreams of writing abook or writing a memoir, and
how we can get started. Yeah,
Raquel Willis (44:46):
wow. You know, the book is so funny in writing
this book, I felt like I've beencompletely humbled. I've had to
extend so much more grace tomyself and to my story, you know
it because it's a memoir, I'vehad to excavate trauma. And I've
(45:06):
had to think about the ways thatI that I have seen the world
that may not have been asaccurate because now with
hindsight, more tools tounderstand things, it is, the
story is a bit wider than maybeI thought it was at certain
points. And that's just thenature of life. But I'm really
telling the story of my journeyinto activism and to social. I
(45:32):
felt like it would be veryresonant, especially in a post,
George Floyd moments or, or era,I guess, really, because I think
we're still kind of in some typeof reckoning around what it
means to continue life, knowingthe fallacies that exist about
(45:54):
our systems and the ways thatthey impact us. And so I just
kind of tell this, the the storyof how I went from not really
knowing what my purpose was thehaving more of an idea of what
it is right, I don't have it allfigured out. And I'm not trying
(46:15):
to give a step by step anything.
But that I'm telling a lot ofwhat I've told in this episode,
but with a little bit morecontext, and also with the
vantage point that my experienceas a black trans woman, and my
voice as a black trans womanmatters. And so what I have seen
of the political landscape, frommy vantage point as something
(46:36):
the world needs to know, what Ihave seen the various social
justice movements from myvantage point, is something the
world needs to know and contendwith and consider. And I hope
that that will inspire otherfolks to tell their stories. And
I guess the tips within that isjust, everyone's creative
(46:57):
process is different. You know,so figure out what works for
you, I am a messy girl, I do notfollow rubrics perfectly, I
might follow a rubric, like, athird of the way and then Amanda
in it, rip it up and, and dosomething else. And then
Jessica Hartley (47:22):
shout out to Gemini, Gemini,
Raquel Willis (47:25):
back in back together be
Jessica Hartley (47:26):
like, wait, wait, wait,
Raquel Willis (47:28):
you know, but you know, and so it's also been me
kind of, kind of dealing withthat too. But it's that, you
know, it just get it out howeverit is, and maybe it's not a
book, you know, in nartz as anarticle, and then you're like,
Okay, I want to expand here orthere and do do a series of
(47:51):
articles or blog posts, or maybeit's not writing at all, and
maybe you are a musician or avisual artists, you know, I
mean, we can tell our stories inso many ways. And that's also
that's also what I'm excitedabout too, is you know,
eventually being able to look atother mediums and, and tell
(48:13):
other stories in different ways,too. So. So it is art from an
expression for me, too. It's notjust, you know, I do think that
there's a culture of like, writea book, so you can capitalize
off of it and make money. But,you know, I want to create a
tome that will stand the test oftime and be something that like
(48:37):
future generations of transfolks, even though they probably
won't even call themselves transanymore, can look back and be
like, oh, somebody thought aboutme in advance that they left
this.
Jessica Hartley (48:50):
I love that.
And we'll wrap it there. Thankyou, Raquel. Thank you, sister,
friend. I love you so much.
Thank you for sharing yourjourney, the ins and outs, all
the things so many juicy bits,as I like to say, as part of
this conversation and I can'twait can't wait for your book to
debut. And for us to have youback again to talk a little bit
(49:13):
more about that. And whateverprojects you I have marinating
in brewing on the horizon. Iappreciate you so much. Thank
you for your time and yourenergy today. Thank you. Thank
you for listening to anotherepisode of hustle, grind, shine
and reignite. If you liked thisepisode, like subscribe and
(49:36):
share on all your favoritepodcast. I hope you'll tune in
to the next episode featuringanother amazing and talented,
professional color. In themeantime, shine bright
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