April 14, 2022 • 34 mins
Even as a child, Dr. Joia Crear-Perry was an activist and advocate for those that could not champion for themselves. As the founder and president of the National Birth Equity Collaborative (NBEC), Dr. Crear-Perry identifies and challenges racism as a root cause of health inequities, including Black maternal mortality. In this episode, we explore how she took all the curveballs that life could throw at her, and turned them into triumphs for herself, for her family, for her patients and for Black and Brown birthing people everywhere.
- How preparation meeting opportunity allows you to forge your own path, even when others doubt what you are capable of
- What it means to shift career focus from being a practitioner in the craft to evolving your entire industry as an activist and policy expert
- What women and people of color can do to support their overall health and wellbeing, in a system not built for us or by us
Learn more about Black maternal mortality and how you can support the National Birth Equity Collaborative (NBEC)
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry is a physician, policy expert, thought leader, and advocate for transformational justice. As the founder and president of the National Birth Equity Collaborative (NBEC), she identifies and challenges racism as a root cause of health inequities. She is a highly sought-after trainer and speaker who has been featured in national and international publications including Essence and Ms. Magazine. In 2020, Dr. Crear-Perry was honored by USA Today in its “Women of the Century” series and featured on ABC Nightline’s “Hear Her Voice.”
Dr. Crear-Perry has twice addressed the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights to elevate the cause of gender diversity and urge a human rights framework toward addressing maternal mortality. A proud recipient of both the Congressional Black Caucus Healthcare Heroes award and the Maternal Health Task Force at Harvard University Global Visionary Award for Commitment to Advancing Women’s Health, Dr. Crear-Perry’s most notable efforts include the removal of race as a risk factor for illnesses, including premature birth. Dr. Crear-Perry currently serves as a Principal at Health Equity Cypher and on the Board of Trustees for Black Mamas Matter Alliance, Community Catalyst, National Clinical Training Center for Family Planning, and the UCSF PTBi. She is an Adjunct Professor at Tulane School of Public Health. She was also recognized as a Fellow of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology.
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Episode Transcript
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Jessica Hartley (00:01):
Welcome to the hustle grind shine and reignite
podcast. I'm your host, JessicaHartley. Join me on another
journey with amazing andtalented professionals of color.
We laugh and cry and take notes.
But most of all be inspired allof this and more on our next
episode of hustle, grind, shine.
(00:24):
And let's goHello, and welcome to another
episode of hustle grind, shineand reignite. I am your host,
Jessica Hartley, and it is mypleasure to welcome you to
another episode of our show. Myguest today I am so very excited
(00:47):
is Dr. Joy career Perry. She isthe founder and president of the
National Birth equitycollaborative. She's a
physician, a policy expert, athought leader and advocate, and
just an amazing, amazing woman.
Join us. Welcome to the show.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (01:07):
Thank you so much. It's been too long.
Thank you for having me. Just,
Jessica Hartley (01:10):
it is been way too long. So I am so excited.
There are so many pieces of yourstory in career that just for me
personally are inspiring, and Ihope will be inspiring to our
listeners today. But Doctorcareer period, I would like to
start first I'd like to go backa little bit and just talk about
your childhood and growing up.
And my first question that allis always, you know, what did
(01:32):
you want to be? What was thatsort of thing that as a child or
as you moved into middle schoolin high school that you wanted
to be? And how did thatinfluence? You know, how you
made the decision about what youdecided to study when you went
to college and all of thosethings. But let's just start
there. And talk to me a littlebit about growing up in life as
a little joy back in the day.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (01:55):
Well, you know, it's already my my sister
always tells me although I'm aphysician, that because I do
policy work. Now it's acontinuation of what I always
wanted to do. So growing up thejoke was always I was
Switzerland. sides of everyargument if people are hating
something I could, I would bethe neutral arbiter. And I would
say no, no, no, no, I could seeyour side and I could see that
(02:15):
side. And I always I want totravel and I knew that this
ability to see both sides wasthe thing that people always
talked about that I was good at,like just listening and figuring
it out. And then when I appliedto college, my mother had picked
Grambling for us to live in as asingle black woman when I was
eight years old. She left NewOrleans left my dad and was like
(02:36):
I want my children to grow up ina place where they see black
people with jobs and education.
No two, I teach her that she'sone of the original black mamas
who was like, Okay, go take mykids going. We move she opened
up a pharmacy and the mayor sether up in a farm in a space and
we lived in a hotel in town inthe city here of us and wow, of
travel and happiness and globalblackness. So that's what I get
(03:01):
to do. Now I was raised by acommunity of black people who
were loving and educated andwanted me to grow. And I was
raised by a family who hadtrapped my mom's army brat. So I
always knew of world I traveledaround most of my life. And that
combination of valuingblackness, but also believing
that there was something biggeracross the world. That's
Jessica Hartley (03:22):
yeah, so you were always connected, because
you just said your mom opened apharmacy. How amazing is that?
So you're always sort ofconnected to this idea of health
and medicine and helping otherstake care of themselves. You
think that sort of influence andand then when you went to
school, did you go to school andsay, Hey, I'm going to go, I'm
(03:44):
going right to go to medicalschool, or was there a little
bit of some other things?
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (03:50):
Yes. I was to be an international banking
major, I had all my father's aphysician. My mother is a
pharmacist. So I was supposed togo into medicine. I was like,
No, I am a socio economics I aminto you know, I want to travel
this medicine thing is toorestrictive. And then I got
pregnant.
Jessica Hartley (04:09):
I was like, let me help you. Let me help you
make some decisions. They're,
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (04:15):
like this called have to grow up fast when
you're 20 and pregnant. So I'mone of the few people that
people it's a funny joke thatwhen I found out I was pregnant,
like I go to med school, I needa career and like, the world No,
no, no, no, ma'am.
Jessica Hartley (04:34):
You're like, No, I gotta keep going. Get it?
Let's go. Yeah,
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (04:37):
I love I really went into medicine as my
safety. It was something I knewconcretely. I understood. So I
know I have a skill. I can dosurgery. I know how to take care
of patients, but I also have alove for this policy and
advocacy and travel. So I canuse my skill as a physician now
in the work that I do withpolicy advocacy, around the
(04:59):
world.
Jessica Hartley (05:00):
That's amazing.
I love that I love that, thatfire in you. It wasn't something
that I mean, obviously, I'm surethere were feelings of being
scared and not knowing thefuture, and all of that, but I
love that you double down and belike, Okay, let me just sort of
pivot and do this. And do this.
So how was it? Can you talk tome a little bit about how it was
(05:22):
to be a brand new mother? And inschool? And I mean, yeah, I
mean, we're not talking aboutand I have a communications
degree communications degree isnot a biology degree is not a
medical degree. I mean, I got myprerequisites for math and
science done very quickly, andmoved on into, you know,
(05:45):
Spanish, and you know, did Iminored in political science, so
did some of that stuff. Butma'am, I was not training to
save people's lives. There is avery big difference from that.
So shout out to all of thecaregivers and doctors and
physicians and people who areout here saving lives every day.
But how was that being a new momand navigating all of that?
(06:08):
Yeah, you
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (06:09):
know, it's exciting. I think. I started
medical school. My daughter wasonly six months old. And I was
only 2122. I'd started medschool. I turned 22. That
August. So I started in July. Soyeah, ignorance is bliss. You
know, I didn't know that. Ishould be afraid. I didn't know.
You know, like, hey, got a baby.
You gotta go to schools, but Ido. And my ex husband was a
(06:29):
policeman. And so he would workat security at the nursery at
the school. She was in daycareat Loyola University, and he
would take her to daycare, hewould just sit and stare at her
all day, you know, when you're20 and goofy, like, and I would
study, you know, at night, Iwould take care of her be mommy
cooked dinner, whatever. Andthen 10pm to 2am every night.
(06:50):
Yeah, and I would go to bed andwake up start again. So it made
me very structured. It made mefocus. I had classmates that
were still you know, they're 22they were still going to party
already hanging out. Yeah.
Rollins I was training it, youknow, charity hospitals, they
were going to football game, theLSU game. I can't even imagine
tailgating like the times theywas tailgating or partying or
(07:13):
going to bars. I was at homebeing mommy and wife. You were
adulting it? Yes, I had to learnvery organized. Not that I
wasn't already but like toreally complete all the tasks
and be sure that I'd be mom,mother and student. I mean, wife
and student ahead to be veryorganized.
Jessica Hartley (07:31):
Yeah, no, man, but just tremendous. And just a
lot to take on and manage andlots of burdens to shoulder at a
very young age
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (07:42):
28 right now and she laughs cuz she's
like, when you were 28 you aredivorced from dad with two kids
and one with special needs. He'slike, I'm trying to figure out
Jessica Hartley (07:55):
I read most of these young folks, I was like, a
lot of them I you know, and noteverybody comes from a
privileged background. A lot ofthem are just so you know, you
said ignorance and blessed withOblivion, right? In the ability,
I want that for my children tobe able to be singularly focused
on themselves in their care intheir happiness and hoping that
(08:17):
the sacrifices that my parentsand grandparents and you know,
for parents have made and thatwe are making, as parents will
support them to live more of howthey want versus how society is
dictating fee
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (08:31):
with teach yoga living in Malibu, like,
Listen, I'll get all theintergenerational trauma that we
have. out to your body
Jessica Hartley (08:44):
may be part of
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (08:47):
maybe all the generations of women who
didn't know how to do self carein our family. Yeah.
Jessica Hartley (08:53):
So talk to me a little bit about so you've got
children. And you finished medschool, going into residency, I
imagine and and starting inpractice, what was that like
making that transition? I guessboth personally and
professionally sort of movingout of because in the medical
field, and you know, lawyers,and you guys are professional
(09:15):
students for a long time. Andthat is a huge shift to go from
being a professional student.
And that's really sort of yourcareer too. Then shifting into
actual practice. How's thattransition for
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (09:27):
you for residency? It was similar to
school because you're stilltraining and you don't make that
much money. And my ex husbandwas a policeman. So he would
text me things like we didn'thave, you know, the old so he
would message message me, wepaid me back I'm like, what
happened? He's like, Oh, I justneed something. No, no, I'm an
(09:48):
actual physician. Like when youtext me 911 People actually
could be dying, dying. It's notanybody thinks like when he's
going to start collecting days,right? Because most people when
they go into professional lives,they have jobs, they collect
days where you have right youcan take off. Yes. What I
learned quickly is that as ablack woman, it is difficult to
be a relationship and be aphysician and be a medical
(10:09):
student because our lives are sodifferent from everybody else's.
Like there's no collecting days.
I can't get off work. I have towork Christmas, Thanksgiving
holiday. Five o'clock in themorning. Yeah, like you sign up.
Jessica Hartley (10:22):
Especially you're I mean, you're dealing
with women and mothers andpregnant individuals. Yeah, that
you can't have that baby today.
You can have it tomorrow. That'snot
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (10:35):
a bigger transition was moving from
residency to private practice.
So I applied and was acceptedinto a fellowship, where they
only take 28 people a year inhigh risk OB, so I was accepted
in 2001 was a big to do youknow, 1000s of people I got in
to go to Houston to train thefancy people to be a high risk
doctor. And by then I wasdivorced. And my ex husband said
(10:55):
to me, if you take my kids toTexas, I will fight you. And so
I couldn't I sent them a dearJohn let him and I didn't leave.
And I stayed and opened up myown practice. And 28 years old,
I just opened up my own smallbusiness, and my dad was Who the
f ma just said, Well, you onlymade $35,000. Last year as a
resident, you won't you'll makeat least
Jessica Hartley (11:20):
nowhere to go.
But up baby.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (11:22):
Nowhere to go. But up. If you do a couple
surgeries, you'll be fine. Yeah,that was really my life. And
many of my advice from thatthough, is 2001 2005, Hurricane
Katrina hits my excellent movesto Texas with this new wave.
Jessica Hartley (11:36):
So are you looking at your watch my
brother? It's like, my, it'slike life, but you have to
learn. I mean, I think about youknow, I have a number of family
and friends who are divorced,and especially if it's younger,
those are all also, you alsothink about, like how people co
parent now versus how peoplecope pair and there was a lot of
(11:58):
sort of antagonism and feel, youknow, versus just how can we
collaborate and partner as COparents together? Obviously,
putting the children first butstill not in, we sacrifice
literally the day you say, I'mgonna keep this child sacrifice.
I tell people, we were like, Idon't know, if I want to have
kids. I'm like, Okay, it's allright. There are enough number
(12:21):
of us that are delusional, thatare propagating for the world.
Okay, I got three, you gotthree, I have covered several.
But this idea of co parenting,and I think also just getting to
a place of how do you navigateand sort of mediate challenges
like that, right?
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (12:39):
Andre? was good, because we were dating and
get married. And he would helpme when I would become a
freshman with my ex husband,too, you know, so like things
like, he moved to Texas. I waslike, I can't believe he moved
to Texas and but you know, theystill children. So we're gonna
use Yeah, it was helpful thatAndre also didn't come with the
same level of animals that I hadwith my ex, so he could help me
(13:02):
to decrease to relax myshoulders.
Jessica Hartley (13:07):
Well, I mean it but it's also think about what
your life would have been like,if you had gone, who knows what
trajectory occurred to you? Whoknows you could have gotten
sucked into the system. And, youknow, you wouldn't have started
your practice so young. Youwouldn't be doing all the
things, not necessarily and youwho knows you, it could have
(13:29):
been a full circle moment. Butthat decision was probably a big
catalyst for the impact thatyou're making in the world
today,
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (13:37):
I thought I would get to do what I do now.
So high risk OB is essentiallytaking care of short and high
risk moms and babies can try.
But it's really that feels threemore years of training where you
do a lot of training aroundultrasounds and diagnosis of
anomalies. But that's not whyBlack moms and babies die.
Policy policies around racismand devaluation of black bodies.
So actually, I feel like I wonbecause I get to do high risk OB
(14:00):
Yeah, and I get to work with allthese fancy. In fact, the woman
who I said that Our Dear Johnletter to I was on a fancy panel
with her recently, I was like, Idon't know if you remember my
name.
Jessica Hartley (14:12):
Remember me? I was at rising star.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (14:16):
Letter.
I'm sure you were cussing meout. Like girl, don't you know
how lucky you are? Exactly,exactly. But I get to work with
people like really brilliant.
Researchers have been looking atthe biological basis of disease,
illness. And I get to talk aboutthe social and political basis
of disease and illness and writeme That's amazing.
Jessica Hartley (14:35):
Yeah. So as part of your career, and I mean,
just really part of your journeyand talking about high risk
pregnancies talking aboutliterally the systemic racism
that is embedded. We talk a lotabout challenges in the justice
system. We talk a lot aboutchallenges in policing. We do
(14:57):
not talk enough about it. Thechallenges in systemic racism
when it comes to the medicalfield. Just anecdotally, I just
we've been working our waythrough over the holiday break
the blacklist on Netflix, andthere is an episode with Laverne
Cox, representing a factor. Andshe, you know, she sort of
rattled off some, there's awhole thing of our own pain. And
(15:19):
this idea that people of color,particularly black, individuals,
Black and African Americans inthe United States, don't feel
pain, the same as white people.
And it's a small thing. And it'sshowing up Interesting enough,
and entertainment and media, butwhen it is all rooted in facts,
in truth, so how did you gofrom, I guess, and maybe it was
always there. But we'd love tohear how you were sort of,
(15:42):
obviously, you know, you're inthe trenches every day meeting
mothers taking care of them invarious communities. You're both
doing it in private practice,but you're doing a lot of
community outreach and support.
Was there a moment or anincident or something that was
really a catalyst for you thatsaid, I can go bigger, I need to
(16:07):
talk more, I need a biggerplatform, not in service to
yourself, but literally inservice to others? Or was it
sort of a gradual build overtime?
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (16:17):
I would say it's a gradual build. It was
always there. When you startmedicine, like I trained at a
medical school that was hospitalwas named Confederate Memorial,
about 15 years before I wasthere. And so
Jessica Hartley (16:29):
Laura's a very may talk about embedded in the
foundation, right?
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (16:33):
No, every day you go to work and you're
thinking to yourself, as you'relearning in medical school and
in residency, that the way thatthey're talking about this is
off, right, like there's noblack gene, there's no black
pill I was taught. So even whenyou mentioned that about the
feelings of pain, my professor,the name of my class, every
other medical school, UnitedStates has a class called
embryology my class at theLouisiana State University, the
(16:56):
state funded medical school wascalled human prenatal
development. And our professorwould show us videos of fetuses
that they could feel pain, andhe would talk about Mongoloid,
Caucasoid and Negroid skin as ifthey were actually biological,
real things. And so that sittinghere being trained and taught by
you Genesis taught by whitesupremacist, and they in a
(17:19):
normal tone, it's not like theywere saying it and like, oh,
black is evil, black is bad. Andhave been codifying a belief in
a hierarchy of human value basedupon race into textbooks. So I
grew up in a black place, I waslike, this doesn't make me
Jessica Hartley (17:34):
feel like I bought my elbow, I hurt it hurt
like I hurt you. Yeah.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (17:38):
So even when I'm professor did that, as
a first year medical student, myclassmates came to me and we
organized to try to get themfired. Like, I've always been
fighting against this falsenarrative that black people are
biologically inferior orbiologically different. So
getting inside the hotbed ofmedicine, in the Deep South,
hearing it constantly, you'reconstantly as an individual
(17:59):
fighting it just with nurseswith doctors with pay, like all
the time, then you move fromthat to you now you're in
practice, you're fighting withinyour institutions to not blame
and shame and horror, I had apatient once who had a child who
was born deaf. So when thesecond child was born, the
father came to the hospital andtook the baby. So the hospital
was in a panic. he stoled hascancer is his child. You can't
(18:22):
he doesn't trust y'all Iunderstand. He feels like
something might happen to hischild, if he leaves his child
here. I think he has a validpoint, I want to call the police
on him. And he's afraid of you,you see that orientation
difference. And so that is hardto always like, as an individual
thing individual patients haveto deal with all the time. And
(18:44):
the Hurricane Katrina hit. Andthe person who was my I rented
space from him, I covered him,he was the city health director,
the mayor had appointed him tobe the city health director. And
so when the storm hit, I calledhim up. And I was a young 32
year old right there to realize,hey, I have all these ideas
about public health. And hesaid, Well, Joy, I don't have
any money. But if you come toCity Hall, I have a desk and a
(19:07):
computer and you can be directorof maternal and child health.
And my public health career wentfrom me kind of fighting as
individual things and the buildup, right. Always doing that
work to really, Katrina for allthat's the Hara. I got to see so
many things. I got to go to theWhite House. I got to go to HHS,
(19:27):
I got to see what happens andthe choices that policymakers
could make pray if they reallywant to invest in black people.
Right. And so right now, yeah,
Jessica Hartley (19:41):
yeah. So that then I imagine then led you to
get to founding the NationalBirth equity collective. Talk to
me a collaborative excuse me,talk to me a little bit about
the mission and sort of visionof what you all are doing how
you all are affecting policy andchange. And what you're seeing
(20:03):
is the impact of that over time.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (20:04):
Yeah. I mean, when you're appointed by a
mayor than when the mayor's No,you serve at the pleasure of the
mayor, some of the mayor's nolonger there, then they're no
longer pleased. Because I hadthe experience of doing that
work and public service, I haverelationships with philanthropy.
We also recognize that havingblack maternal and child health,
not have a home outside ofgovernment, it needed a
(20:27):
nonprofit that could help push.
So that's really where westarted in back to say, okay,
when you're appointed by mayoror governor and you're working
on maternal and child health, isturnover is so fast. So like, we
need long term strategy. And Iwas blessed and honored to be a
part of the reproductive justicemovement. So having both kind of
this maternal child health,public healthy frame of
understanding medicine andpublic health, but also the need
(20:49):
for justice. Reproductivejustice is a term that 12 Black
Woman coined in 1994. And it wasreally in response to the
conversation around reproductiverights and health. So often, it
focuses on access tocontraception and abortion,
which we need. But for blackwomen, that's not how we start
off our day thinking, you know,like, we need all the things we
(21:11):
Yeah, to outlive our children,right? Yeah. I frequently say,
you know, I have a 10 year oldson, I don't allow him to play
with a toy gun outside becauselike Tamir Rice, his mother,
yeah, I don't want people tothink of him as an adult and
shoot him. As a black Mama, I'mnot just worried about getting
an abortion and contraception,I'm worried about race,
(21:31):
violence, mass incarceration,all the things and stuff that's
all connected all the things. Sothat's why we get to do so I
will get to really take awayfrom this compartmentalised idea
of there's one solution tocreating a global conversation
transnational. So we have a teamnow that works with in Brazil
that's working Sub SaharanAfrica, really this connection
(21:52):
of anti blackness and genderoppression. And truthfully,
we've come we're a lot furtheralong in our understanding of
race, and we are the gendermuseum.
Jessica Hartley (22:05):
And, you know, I think a lot of people would
think that it was the reverse,you know, because we've done so
many things around gender, andthat we are further along
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (22:15):
bad, it's really bad. Like, I'm gonna give
you a concrete example. Yeah, Ican tell you that black women
who die in childbirth, are thatdying because of some biological
thing around blackness? Right?
Like, we don't have a blackkidney, we don't have a black
lung. So if we have higher ratesof hypertension, or diabetes,
since we have higher rates ofdiabetes and hypertension, then
(22:36):
we can know that that's becausewe're racialized as black, not
because there's a gene in ourbody that's making us have these
things. There is estrogen likesex is a real genetic thing,
like we have no. So I don't knowif there is something around
having X Y chromosome that makesme have higher rates of heart
(22:56):
attack. And there are thingsabout my gender identity, that
made me die in childbirth aswell not being listened to not
being valued. We have noframework to be able to separate
out which parts of the thingsthat are happening to women in
childbirth, or from their genderidentity, and which parts are
from actual biological sex liketheir right hormones. There's,
Jessica Hartley (23:18):
yeah, yes, well, I mean, some of my
colleagues and I in the 40s and50s. And we were having a
conversation last week talkingabout perimenopause, menopause,
post menopause, and just talkingabout how a lot of people don't
talk about it, or people onlytalk about some of the things
like hot flashes and things likethat, and it's just not studied.
(23:41):
And there's just not enoughdata. And what does it mean? And
how does it and you know, mymom, she'll probably, she will
be fine with it. And sherecently shared with me earlier
this year that, you know, aftershe had my sister around 37/38,
that kind of triggeredperimenopause, your her? Yeah.
And, you know, it was a holy cowmoment that, you know, here I am
(24:03):
now in my early 40s. And my momwas telling me that she was
already going through it, right.
And so how do you know thesigns? How do you recognize and
what does it mean for a blackwoman to go through menopause
versus a white woman versus anAsian woman? And, you know, and
and all of the things that workagain, there's just not enough.
There's that information anddata,
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (24:23):
and part of it is who the people who are
asking the questions and whatthey value, like I met a woman
recently, who does studies onmenstrual flow, she could
diagnose fibroids andendometriosis from your tampon.
And I thought, you know, thereason we've never done that
before is because men have beenin charge of research, so
they're afraid of tampons? Yeah,for biopsy. Why wouldn't it
(24:43):
work? We've been doing thatlike, right, right, right.
Jessica Hartley (24:46):
Well, and also that this idea that use the term
recently, like our bodies arebeautiful and ridiculous things
as well, right? Our bodies werecapable of so much, but they're
so fragile in so many ways, butthis idea I mean, for so long in
history, women's bodies wereviewed as defective, viewed as
(25:07):
gross and nasty and
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (25:10):
ugly, right? So that's the thing. So
like the patriarchy part like,I'm an engineer. So when I talk
to people about a midwiferymodel of care, because when I
listened to how midwives weretrained around birth, it's the
opposite of how we were I wastrained as an obstetrician. So
that comes from patriarchy, andwhite supremacy. So it's, you're
on a clock, we measure how longyou are on this clock. If you
get off this clock, we startPitocin. Like our job is to
(25:33):
think of we think of your bodyas something we have to support,
not something that'sautomatically beautiful and
amazing and capable of birthingfor generations for 100
centuries before we got here,just a totally different
orientation. For me, that's thepatriarchy, right, so that I'm
here with metal objects andforceps and instruments. And I'm
not to use all those things Ido, but I wish I knew how to use
(25:57):
them under the premise that I'monly here if all else fails,
that the person is totallycapable of doing all these
things, regardless of who are wehearing that, and at the last
resort versus believing herbody's broken, and I'm here, so
fragile, think about like, earlyobstetrics, they put people to
tough Twilight sleep, put forthof songs to pull the baby out.
(26:18):
But the baby can body's just sofragile. No, no, that party is
strong and powerful. And it'sbeen it's so strong and powerful
that it scares you screaming somuch that you want to put her to
sleep.
Jessica Hartley (26:28):
That's it.
That's caring women are here.
That's right, because we'reamazing empowering. So you spend
your day you spent your lifetaking care of others. I mean,
literally ma'am URL here savinglives and taking care of others.
What does self care look likefor you? How are you taking care
of yourself? I know for a lot ofus as I keep saying I'll say in
every episode work in progress.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (26:53):
Learning well even Yeah, young me so
young me learned how to leaveNew Orleans and take breaks. So
I was a very busy privatepractice solo practice OBGYN so
I could not have any breaks likeI was always if I went to
dinner, I would see patients Iwas in the grocery store. I
would see like, my life. Mydaughter would go to movies and
see my family like.
Jessica Hartley (27:15):
Thanks. Thanks.
Great. Hey, Mom. Yeah, my momwas a pseudo mayor. You know,
the unofficial mayor. Yeah,everybody. My mom was a teacher.
And everybody knew my mom is ateacher.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (27:26):
Yes, about every six weeks, I would take a
trip, cut off my phone gosomewhere. So I realized that my
self care is travel is I love tojust go to a beach, go to a
place go, escape, turn offthings and be gone. And so even
during this pandemic, I've beenI've gone all over the place. We
just got on a plane going toJamaica next week. You have to I
(27:49):
have to I will go insane. Mymental health can't tolerate
being inside. I finally hired anassistant. I do not have one.
Yeah. And she I mean,
Jessica Hartley (28:00):
I'm looking at my clock like now. I was so
happy when we were schedulingthis and you said, Hey, can you
make sure my sister knows whatthat's great.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (28:10):
It's big.
It's huge for me, because italso helps me to model for some
of my friends who still doeverything at night and on the
weekend. So it's like when youwant to have a life if your
podcast is on Sunday night?
Yeah. says when you go have alife, if you do in your webinars
on Tuesdays at 7pm. To like, Ireally try to use my attempts to
(28:33):
only work from 10 to six, Mondaythrough Friday, like I'm trying
really hard to have a lifeoutside of this work. Right make
room for wrist. So
Jessica Hartley (28:44):
make it room for us. I love that. Thank you.
Thank you for sharing. If youhad to think about a lot of the
women listening to this call,and a lot of the them they will
be women of color for allies towomen of color men out there as
well. What can we do to I guessprobably two parts. If you had
(29:09):
to think about how can weadvocate for ourselves? A lot of
us are professional women, andgreat salaries, amazing careers
can command a court room cancommand a board room can command
all these things. But there issomething that is scary,
particularly if you're going tothe doctor because something
(29:30):
doesn't feel right, something'soff. There is an apprehension.
And dare I say a little bit of,you know, intimidation when you
go to the doctor, even if it'ssomeone you trust, even if it's
someone you've been going to fora while. How can we advocate for
ourselves in those moments? It'salways hard.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (29:50):
I would say that, um, I think it's
almost impossible to be both thepatient and advocate frequently
asked people to have someonewith them. And I know that's
hard because we're so close.
customed to doing everything onour loan, and we're
Jessica Hartley (30:01):
private, yes, don't tell anybody, especially
people of color, don't tellanybody your business.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (30:07):
But the truth is, you're getting so much
information when you're in anyappointment. And so to be able
to absorb all that, and to beable to explain things without
having another ear withouthaving another person, like so
much gets lost in translation. Iwhen I both of my parents, and
last several years have bothbeen getting ill, and I don't
let them go to the doctor bythemselves. If they go by
themselves and make themFaceTime, the doctor comes in
(30:28):
the room, I mean, my childrenthe same way that you would
think about your children thatyou can't even imagine your
children going to thepediatrician alone, truthfully,
for black people, you shouldthink about that in general,
right? Like, we need anotherear, we need another person and
we need someone to support us tohear even someone that you
trust, because you hear itdifferently. I would love people
(30:48):
to bring someone in that whenthey see me as a patient,
because I want us all everybody,all hearts and minds are clear.
We all understand theinformation we feel comfortable
about the decisions that we'remaking together, that you need
to not feel like you're aloneand those things.
Jessica Hartley (31:02):
Yeah, I think that is amazing advice. And I
think something that all of uscan take away whether or not you
are a person of color or a womanis that support and that network
in Yes, you get here at wrong,you might get stuck and not be
able to ask additional follow upquestions that you normally
(31:23):
would have if you didn't justhad time to process in the
moment. So thank you for sharingthat. And then I guess as we
close in this has just been suchan amazing conversation. And I
have learned a lot in grow justas part of this and enjoy the
conversation even though we'retalking about some things that
are really challenging. Whatadvice would you have for
(31:45):
another young Joya coming uptrying to make decisions about
life and you know, so bringingthat sort of passion in purpose
and work and in sort of findingtheir place any advice you have
for and I say a young joy, itcould be joy in her 40s trying
to make a pivot. Yeah, we're allI feel like we're always
(32:08):
growing.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (32:08):
And that's changing my advice, honestly.
always growing. I just prayedyesterday, I was like, You know
what, I'll take another 50years. Good. If you want to give
it to me, I'll take it. Iunderstand if you don't want to
give it to me because I love Ifeel like I've lived three
different at least lifetime.
Jessica Hartley (32:23):
Mm hmm.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (32:24):
So being prepared for the changes or
being excited about the changes,excited about the new
opportunities excited aboutwhat's next lead with love and
not fear, you know, like, live alife out of curiosity and what
could happen next, and where canwe go? Every time I look to have
that openness. It's amazing.
When I let fear creep in, that'swhen things get hard and scary.
(32:47):
So even the middle of apandemic, I'm feeling love and
openness and excitement aboutwhat tomorrow could be.
Jessica Hartley (32:57):
And with that, we will thank you I love it,
lead with love and be open andanother 50 years. I'll do it. My
love Frenchies. Juice, beetjuice and crushes is gonna get
(33:17):
us there. I love it. Thank youso much joy for your time and
your beauty both inside and out.
This has been an absolute joyand pleasure. And I look forward
to hopefully having you on theshow again in the future. Thank
you. Okay. Thanks. Thank you forlistening to another episode of
(33:38):
hustle, grind, shine andreignite. If you'd like this
episode, like, subscribe andshare on all your favorite
podcast. I hope you'll tune into the next episode featuring
another amazing and talentedprofessional. In the meantime,
Welcome to the hustle grind shine and reignite
podcast. I'm your host, JessicaHartley. Join me on another
journey with amazing andtalented professionals of color.
We laugh and cry and take notes.
But most of all be inspired allof this and more on our next
episode of hustle, grind, shine.
(00:24):
And let's goHello, and welcome to another
episode of hustle grind, shineand reignite. I am your host,
Jessica Hartley, and it is mypleasure to welcome you to
another episode of our show. Myguest today I am so very excited
(00:47):
is Dr. Joy career Perry. She isthe founder and president of the
National Birth equitycollaborative. She's a
physician, a policy expert, athought leader and advocate, and
just an amazing, amazing woman.
Join us. Welcome to the show.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (01:07):
Thank you so much. It's been too long.
Thank you for having me. Just,
Jessica Hartley (01:10):
it is been way too long. So I am so excited.
There are so many pieces of yourstory in career that just for me
personally are inspiring, and Ihope will be inspiring to our
listeners today. But Doctorcareer period, I would like to
start first I'd like to go backa little bit and just talk about
your childhood and growing up.
And my first question that allis always, you know, what did
(01:32):
you want to be? What was thatsort of thing that as a child or
as you moved into middle schoolin high school that you wanted
to be? And how did thatinfluence? You know, how you
made the decision about what youdecided to study when you went
to college and all of thosethings. But let's just start
there. And talk to me a littlebit about growing up in life as
a little joy back in the day.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (01:55):
Well, you know, it's already my my sister
always tells me although I'm aphysician, that because I do
policy work. Now it's acontinuation of what I always
wanted to do. So growing up thejoke was always I was
Switzerland. sides of everyargument if people are hating
something I could, I would bethe neutral arbiter. And I would
say no, no, no, no, I could seeyour side and I could see that
(02:15):
side. And I always I want totravel and I knew that this
ability to see both sides wasthe thing that people always
talked about that I was good at,like just listening and figuring
it out. And then when I appliedto college, my mother had picked
Grambling for us to live in as asingle black woman when I was
eight years old. She left NewOrleans left my dad and was like
(02:36):
I want my children to grow up ina place where they see black
people with jobs and education.
No two, I teach her that she'sone of the original black mamas
who was like, Okay, go take mykids going. We move she opened
up a pharmacy and the mayor sether up in a farm in a space and
we lived in a hotel in town inthe city here of us and wow, of
travel and happiness and globalblackness. So that's what I get
(03:01):
to do. Now I was raised by acommunity of black people who
were loving and educated andwanted me to grow. And I was
raised by a family who hadtrapped my mom's army brat. So I
always knew of world I traveledaround most of my life. And that
combination of valuingblackness, but also believing
that there was something biggeracross the world. That's
Jessica Hartley (03:22):
yeah, so you were always connected, because
you just said your mom opened apharmacy. How amazing is that?
So you're always sort ofconnected to this idea of health
and medicine and helping otherstake care of themselves. You
think that sort of influence andand then when you went to
school, did you go to school andsay, Hey, I'm going to go, I'm
(03:44):
going right to go to medicalschool, or was there a little
bit of some other things?
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (03:50):
Yes. I was to be an international banking
major, I had all my father's aphysician. My mother is a
pharmacist. So I was supposed togo into medicine. I was like,
No, I am a socio economics I aminto you know, I want to travel
this medicine thing is toorestrictive. And then I got
pregnant.
Jessica Hartley (04:09):
I was like, let me help you. Let me help you
make some decisions. They're,
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (04:15):
like this called have to grow up fast when
you're 20 and pregnant. So I'mone of the few people that
people it's a funny joke thatwhen I found out I was pregnant,
like I go to med school, I needa career and like, the world No,
no, no, no, ma'am.
Jessica Hartley (04:34):
You're like, No, I gotta keep going. Get it?
Let's go. Yeah,
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (04:37):
I love I really went into medicine as my
safety. It was something I knewconcretely. I understood. So I
know I have a skill. I can dosurgery. I know how to take care
of patients, but I also have alove for this policy and
advocacy and travel. So I canuse my skill as a physician now
in the work that I do withpolicy advocacy, around the
(04:59):
world.
Jessica Hartley (05:00):
That's amazing.
I love that I love that, thatfire in you. It wasn't something
that I mean, obviously, I'm surethere were feelings of being
scared and not knowing thefuture, and all of that, but I
love that you double down and belike, Okay, let me just sort of
pivot and do this. And do this.
So how was it? Can you talk tome a little bit about how it was
(05:22):
to be a brand new mother? And inschool? And I mean, yeah, I
mean, we're not talking aboutand I have a communications
degree communications degree isnot a biology degree is not a
medical degree. I mean, I got myprerequisites for math and
science done very quickly, andmoved on into, you know,
(05:45):
Spanish, and you know, did Iminored in political science, so
did some of that stuff. Butma'am, I was not training to
save people's lives. There is avery big difference from that.
So shout out to all of thecaregivers and doctors and
physicians and people who areout here saving lives every day.
But how was that being a new momand navigating all of that?
(06:08):
Yeah, you
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (06:09):
know, it's exciting. I think. I started
medical school. My daughter wasonly six months old. And I was
only 2122. I'd started medschool. I turned 22. That
August. So I started in July. Soyeah, ignorance is bliss. You
know, I didn't know that. Ishould be afraid. I didn't know.
You know, like, hey, got a baby.
You gotta go to schools, but Ido. And my ex husband was a
(06:29):
policeman. And so he would workat security at the nursery at
the school. She was in daycareat Loyola University, and he
would take her to daycare, hewould just sit and stare at her
all day, you know, when you're20 and goofy, like, and I would
study, you know, at night, Iwould take care of her be mommy
cooked dinner, whatever. Andthen 10pm to 2am every night.
(06:50):
Yeah, and I would go to bed andwake up start again. So it made
me very structured. It made mefocus. I had classmates that
were still you know, they're 22they were still going to party
already hanging out. Yeah.
Rollins I was training it, youknow, charity hospitals, they
were going to football game, theLSU game. I can't even imagine
tailgating like the times theywas tailgating or partying or
(07:13):
going to bars. I was at homebeing mommy and wife. You were
adulting it? Yes, I had to learnvery organized. Not that I
wasn't already but like toreally complete all the tasks
and be sure that I'd be mom,mother and student. I mean, wife
and student ahead to be veryorganized.
Jessica Hartley (07:31):
Yeah, no, man, but just tremendous. And just a
lot to take on and manage andlots of burdens to shoulder at a
very young age
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (07:42):
28 right now and she laughs cuz she's
like, when you were 28 you aredivorced from dad with two kids
and one with special needs. He'slike, I'm trying to figure out
Jessica Hartley (07:55):
I read most of these young folks, I was like, a
lot of them I you know, and noteverybody comes from a
privileged background. A lot ofthem are just so you know, you
said ignorance and blessed withOblivion, right? In the ability,
I want that for my children tobe able to be singularly focused
on themselves in their care intheir happiness and hoping that
(08:17):
the sacrifices that my parentsand grandparents and you know,
for parents have made and thatwe are making, as parents will
support them to live more of howthey want versus how society is
dictating fee
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (08:31):
with teach yoga living in Malibu, like,
Listen, I'll get all theintergenerational trauma that we
have. out to your body
Jessica Hartley (08:44):
may be part of
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (08:47):
maybe all the generations of women who
didn't know how to do self carein our family. Yeah.
Jessica Hartley (08:53):
So talk to me a little bit about so you've got
children. And you finished medschool, going into residency, I
imagine and and starting inpractice, what was that like
making that transition? I guessboth personally and
professionally sort of movingout of because in the medical
field, and you know, lawyers,and you guys are professional
(09:15):
students for a long time. Andthat is a huge shift to go from
being a professional student.
And that's really sort of yourcareer too. Then shifting into
actual practice. How's thattransition for
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (09:27):
you for residency? It was similar to
school because you're stilltraining and you don't make that
much money. And my ex husbandwas a policeman. So he would
text me things like we didn'thave, you know, the old so he
would message message me, wepaid me back I'm like, what
happened? He's like, Oh, I justneed something. No, no, I'm an
(09:48):
actual physician. Like when youtext me 911 People actually
could be dying, dying. It's notanybody thinks like when he's
going to start collecting days,right? Because most people when
they go into professional lives,they have jobs, they collect
days where you have right youcan take off. Yes. What I
learned quickly is that as ablack woman, it is difficult to
be a relationship and be aphysician and be a medical
(10:09):
student because our lives are sodifferent from everybody else's.
Like there's no collecting days.
I can't get off work. I have towork Christmas, Thanksgiving
holiday. Five o'clock in themorning. Yeah, like you sign up.
Jessica Hartley (10:22):
Especially you're I mean, you're dealing
with women and mothers andpregnant individuals. Yeah, that
you can't have that baby today.
You can have it tomorrow. That'snot
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (10:35):
a bigger transition was moving from
residency to private practice.
So I applied and was acceptedinto a fellowship, where they
only take 28 people a year inhigh risk OB, so I was accepted
in 2001 was a big to do youknow, 1000s of people I got in
to go to Houston to train thefancy people to be a high risk
doctor. And by then I wasdivorced. And my ex husband said
(10:55):
to me, if you take my kids toTexas, I will fight you. And so
I couldn't I sent them a dearJohn let him and I didn't leave.
And I stayed and opened up myown practice. And 28 years old,
I just opened up my own smallbusiness, and my dad was Who the
f ma just said, Well, you onlymade $35,000. Last year as a
resident, you won't you'll makeat least
Jessica Hartley (11:20):
nowhere to go.
But up baby.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (11:22):
Nowhere to go. But up. If you do a couple
surgeries, you'll be fine. Yeah,that was really my life. And
many of my advice from thatthough, is 2001 2005, Hurricane
Katrina hits my excellent movesto Texas with this new wave.
Jessica Hartley (11:36):
So are you looking at your watch my
brother? It's like, my, it'slike life, but you have to
learn. I mean, I think about youknow, I have a number of family
and friends who are divorced,and especially if it's younger,
those are all also, you alsothink about, like how people co
parent now versus how peoplecope pair and there was a lot of
(11:58):
sort of antagonism and feel, youknow, versus just how can we
collaborate and partner as COparents together? Obviously,
putting the children first butstill not in, we sacrifice
literally the day you say, I'mgonna keep this child sacrifice.
I tell people, we were like, Idon't know, if I want to have
kids. I'm like, Okay, it's allright. There are enough number
(12:21):
of us that are delusional, thatare propagating for the world.
Okay, I got three, you gotthree, I have covered several.
But this idea of co parenting,and I think also just getting to
a place of how do you navigateand sort of mediate challenges
like that, right?
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (12:39):
Andre? was good, because we were dating and
get married. And he would helpme when I would become a
freshman with my ex husband,too, you know, so like things
like, he moved to Texas. I waslike, I can't believe he moved
to Texas and but you know, theystill children. So we're gonna
use Yeah, it was helpful thatAndre also didn't come with the
same level of animals that I hadwith my ex, so he could help me
(13:02):
to decrease to relax myshoulders.
Jessica Hartley (13:07):
Well, I mean it but it's also think about what
your life would have been like,if you had gone, who knows what
trajectory occurred to you? Whoknows you could have gotten
sucked into the system. And, youknow, you wouldn't have started
your practice so young. Youwouldn't be doing all the
things, not necessarily and youwho knows you, it could have
(13:29):
been a full circle moment. Butthat decision was probably a big
catalyst for the impact thatyou're making in the world
today,
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (13:37):
I thought I would get to do what I do now.
So high risk OB is essentiallytaking care of short and high
risk moms and babies can try.
But it's really that feels threemore years of training where you
do a lot of training aroundultrasounds and diagnosis of
anomalies. But that's not whyBlack moms and babies die.
Policy policies around racismand devaluation of black bodies.
So actually, I feel like I wonbecause I get to do high risk OB
(14:00):
Yeah, and I get to work with allthese fancy. In fact, the woman
who I said that Our Dear Johnletter to I was on a fancy panel
with her recently, I was like, Idon't know if you remember my
name.
Jessica Hartley (14:12):
Remember me? I was at rising star.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (14:16):
Letter.
I'm sure you were cussing meout. Like girl, don't you know
how lucky you are? Exactly,exactly. But I get to work with
people like really brilliant.
Researchers have been looking atthe biological basis of disease,
illness. And I get to talk aboutthe social and political basis
of disease and illness and writeme That's amazing.
Jessica Hartley (14:35):
Yeah. So as part of your career, and I mean,
just really part of your journeyand talking about high risk
pregnancies talking aboutliterally the systemic racism
that is embedded. We talk a lotabout challenges in the justice
system. We talk a lot aboutchallenges in policing. We do
(14:57):
not talk enough about it. Thechallenges in systemic racism
when it comes to the medicalfield. Just anecdotally, I just
we've been working our waythrough over the holiday break
the blacklist on Netflix, andthere is an episode with Laverne
Cox, representing a factor. Andshe, you know, she sort of
rattled off some, there's awhole thing of our own pain. And
(15:19):
this idea that people of color,particularly black, individuals,
Black and African Americans inthe United States, don't feel
pain, the same as white people.
And it's a small thing. And it'sshowing up Interesting enough,
and entertainment and media, butwhen it is all rooted in facts,
in truth, so how did you gofrom, I guess, and maybe it was
always there. But we'd love tohear how you were sort of,
(15:42):
obviously, you know, you're inthe trenches every day meeting
mothers taking care of them invarious communities. You're both
doing it in private practice,but you're doing a lot of
community outreach and support.
Was there a moment or anincident or something that was
really a catalyst for you thatsaid, I can go bigger, I need to
(16:07):
talk more, I need a biggerplatform, not in service to
yourself, but literally inservice to others? Or was it
sort of a gradual build overtime?
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (16:17):
I would say it's a gradual build. It was
always there. When you startmedicine, like I trained at a
medical school that was hospitalwas named Confederate Memorial,
about 15 years before I wasthere. And so
Jessica Hartley (16:29):
Laura's a very may talk about embedded in the
foundation, right?
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (16:33):
No, every day you go to work and you're
thinking to yourself, as you'relearning in medical school and
in residency, that the way thatthey're talking about this is
off, right, like there's noblack gene, there's no black
pill I was taught. So even whenyou mentioned that about the
feelings of pain, my professor,the name of my class, every
other medical school, UnitedStates has a class called
embryology my class at theLouisiana State University, the
(16:56):
state funded medical school wascalled human prenatal
development. And our professorwould show us videos of fetuses
that they could feel pain, andhe would talk about Mongoloid,
Caucasoid and Negroid skin as ifthey were actually biological,
real things. And so that sittinghere being trained and taught by
you Genesis taught by whitesupremacist, and they in a
(17:19):
normal tone, it's not like theywere saying it and like, oh,
black is evil, black is bad. Andhave been codifying a belief in
a hierarchy of human value basedupon race into textbooks. So I
grew up in a black place, I waslike, this doesn't make me
Jessica Hartley (17:34):
feel like I bought my elbow, I hurt it hurt
like I hurt you. Yeah.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (17:38):
So even when I'm professor did that, as
a first year medical student, myclassmates came to me and we
organized to try to get themfired. Like, I've always been
fighting against this falsenarrative that black people are
biologically inferior orbiologically different. So
getting inside the hotbed ofmedicine, in the Deep South,
hearing it constantly, you'reconstantly as an individual
(17:59):
fighting it just with nurseswith doctors with pay, like all
the time, then you move fromthat to you now you're in
practice, you're fighting withinyour institutions to not blame
and shame and horror, I had apatient once who had a child who
was born deaf. So when thesecond child was born, the
father came to the hospital andtook the baby. So the hospital
was in a panic. he stoled hascancer is his child. You can't
(18:22):
he doesn't trust y'all Iunderstand. He feels like
something might happen to hischild, if he leaves his child
here. I think he has a validpoint, I want to call the police
on him. And he's afraid of you,you see that orientation
difference. And so that is hardto always like, as an individual
thing individual patients haveto deal with all the time. And
(18:44):
the Hurricane Katrina hit. Andthe person who was my I rented
space from him, I covered him,he was the city health director,
the mayor had appointed him tobe the city health director. And
so when the storm hit, I calledhim up. And I was a young 32
year old right there to realize,hey, I have all these ideas
about public health. And hesaid, Well, Joy, I don't have
any money. But if you come toCity Hall, I have a desk and a
(19:07):
computer and you can be directorof maternal and child health.
And my public health career wentfrom me kind of fighting as
individual things and the buildup, right. Always doing that
work to really, Katrina for allthat's the Hara. I got to see so
many things. I got to go to theWhite House. I got to go to HHS,
(19:27):
I got to see what happens andthe choices that policymakers
could make pray if they reallywant to invest in black people.
Right. And so right now, yeah,
Jessica Hartley (19:41):
yeah. So that then I imagine then led you to
get to founding the NationalBirth equity collective. Talk to
me a collaborative excuse me,talk to me a little bit about
the mission and sort of visionof what you all are doing how
you all are affecting policy andchange. And what you're seeing
(20:03):
is the impact of that over time.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (20:04):
Yeah. I mean, when you're appointed by a
mayor than when the mayor's No,you serve at the pleasure of the
mayor, some of the mayor's nolonger there, then they're no
longer pleased. Because I hadthe experience of doing that
work and public service, I haverelationships with philanthropy.
We also recognize that havingblack maternal and child health,
not have a home outside ofgovernment, it needed a
(20:27):
nonprofit that could help push.
So that's really where westarted in back to say, okay,
when you're appointed by mayoror governor and you're working
on maternal and child health, isturnover is so fast. So like, we
need long term strategy. And Iwas blessed and honored to be a
part of the reproductive justicemovement. So having both kind of
this maternal child health,public healthy frame of
understanding medicine andpublic health, but also the need
(20:49):
for justice. Reproductivejustice is a term that 12 Black
Woman coined in 1994. And it wasreally in response to the
conversation around reproductiverights and health. So often, it
focuses on access tocontraception and abortion,
which we need. But for blackwomen, that's not how we start
off our day thinking, you know,like, we need all the things we
(21:11):
Yeah, to outlive our children,right? Yeah. I frequently say,
you know, I have a 10 year oldson, I don't allow him to play
with a toy gun outside becauselike Tamir Rice, his mother,
yeah, I don't want people tothink of him as an adult and
shoot him. As a black Mama, I'mnot just worried about getting
an abortion and contraception,I'm worried about race,
(21:31):
violence, mass incarceration,all the things and stuff that's
all connected all the things. Sothat's why we get to do so I
will get to really take awayfrom this compartmentalised idea
of there's one solution tocreating a global conversation
transnational. So we have a teamnow that works with in Brazil
that's working Sub SaharanAfrica, really this connection
(21:52):
of anti blackness and genderoppression. And truthfully,
we've come we're a lot furtheralong in our understanding of
race, and we are the gendermuseum.
Jessica Hartley (22:05):
And, you know, I think a lot of people would
think that it was the reverse,you know, because we've done so
many things around gender, andthat we are further along
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (22:15):
bad, it's really bad. Like, I'm gonna give
you a concrete example. Yeah, Ican tell you that black women
who die in childbirth, are thatdying because of some biological
thing around blackness? Right?
Like, we don't have a blackkidney, we don't have a black
lung. So if we have higher ratesof hypertension, or diabetes,
since we have higher rates ofdiabetes and hypertension, then
(22:36):
we can know that that's becausewe're racialized as black, not
because there's a gene in ourbody that's making us have these
things. There is estrogen likesex is a real genetic thing,
like we have no. So I don't knowif there is something around
having X Y chromosome that makesme have higher rates of heart
(22:56):
attack. And there are thingsabout my gender identity, that
made me die in childbirth aswell not being listened to not
being valued. We have noframework to be able to separate
out which parts of the thingsthat are happening to women in
childbirth, or from their genderidentity, and which parts are
from actual biological sex liketheir right hormones. There's,
Jessica Hartley (23:18):
yeah, yes, well, I mean, some of my
colleagues and I in the 40s and50s. And we were having a
conversation last week talkingabout perimenopause, menopause,
post menopause, and just talkingabout how a lot of people don't
talk about it, or people onlytalk about some of the things
like hot flashes and things likethat, and it's just not studied.
(23:41):
And there's just not enoughdata. And what does it mean? And
how does it and you know, mymom, she'll probably, she will
be fine with it. And sherecently shared with me earlier
this year that, you know, aftershe had my sister around 37/38,
that kind of triggeredperimenopause, your her? Yeah.
And, you know, it was a holy cowmoment that, you know, here I am
(24:03):
now in my early 40s. And my momwas telling me that she was
already going through it, right.
And so how do you know thesigns? How do you recognize and
what does it mean for a blackwoman to go through menopause
versus a white woman versus anAsian woman? And, you know, and
and all of the things that workagain, there's just not enough.
There's that information anddata,
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (24:23):
and part of it is who the people who are
asking the questions and whatthey value, like I met a woman
recently, who does studies onmenstrual flow, she could
diagnose fibroids andendometriosis from your tampon.
And I thought, you know, thereason we've never done that
before is because men have beenin charge of research, so
they're afraid of tampons? Yeah,for biopsy. Why wouldn't it
(24:43):
work? We've been doing thatlike, right, right, right.
Jessica Hartley (24:46):
Well, and also that this idea that use the term
recently, like our bodies arebeautiful and ridiculous things
as well, right? Our bodies werecapable of so much, but they're
so fragile in so many ways, butthis idea I mean, for so long in
history, women's bodies wereviewed as defective, viewed as
(25:07):
gross and nasty and
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (25:10):
ugly, right? So that's the thing. So
like the patriarchy part like,I'm an engineer. So when I talk
to people about a midwiferymodel of care, because when I
listened to how midwives weretrained around birth, it's the
opposite of how we were I wastrained as an obstetrician. So
that comes from patriarchy, andwhite supremacy. So it's, you're
on a clock, we measure how longyou are on this clock. If you
get off this clock, we startPitocin. Like our job is to
(25:33):
think of we think of your bodyas something we have to support,
not something that'sautomatically beautiful and
amazing and capable of birthingfor generations for 100
centuries before we got here,just a totally different
orientation. For me, that's thepatriarchy, right, so that I'm
here with metal objects andforceps and instruments. And I'm
not to use all those things Ido, but I wish I knew how to use
(25:57):
them under the premise that I'monly here if all else fails,
that the person is totallycapable of doing all these
things, regardless of who are wehearing that, and at the last
resort versus believing herbody's broken, and I'm here, so
fragile, think about like, earlyobstetrics, they put people to
tough Twilight sleep, put forthof songs to pull the baby out.
(26:18):
But the baby can body's just sofragile. No, no, that party is
strong and powerful. And it'sbeen it's so strong and powerful
that it scares you screaming somuch that you want to put her to
sleep.
Jessica Hartley (26:28):
That's it.
That's caring women are here.
That's right, because we'reamazing empowering. So you spend
your day you spent your lifetaking care of others. I mean,
literally ma'am URL here savinglives and taking care of others.
What does self care look likefor you? How are you taking care
of yourself? I know for a lot ofus as I keep saying I'll say in
every episode work in progress.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (26:53):
Learning well even Yeah, young me so
young me learned how to leaveNew Orleans and take breaks. So
I was a very busy privatepractice solo practice OBGYN so
I could not have any breaks likeI was always if I went to
dinner, I would see patients Iwas in the grocery store. I
would see like, my life. Mydaughter would go to movies and
see my family like.
Jessica Hartley (27:15):
Thanks. Thanks.
Great. Hey, Mom. Yeah, my momwas a pseudo mayor. You know,
the unofficial mayor. Yeah,everybody. My mom was a teacher.
And everybody knew my mom is ateacher.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (27:26):
Yes, about every six weeks, I would take a
trip, cut off my phone gosomewhere. So I realized that my
self care is travel is I love tojust go to a beach, go to a
place go, escape, turn offthings and be gone. And so even
during this pandemic, I've beenI've gone all over the place. We
just got on a plane going toJamaica next week. You have to I
(27:49):
have to I will go insane. Mymental health can't tolerate
being inside. I finally hired anassistant. I do not have one.
Yeah. And she I mean,
Jessica Hartley (28:00):
I'm looking at my clock like now. I was so
happy when we were schedulingthis and you said, Hey, can you
make sure my sister knows whatthat's great.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (28:10):
It's big.
It's huge for me, because italso helps me to model for some
of my friends who still doeverything at night and on the
weekend. So it's like when youwant to have a life if your
podcast is on Sunday night?
Yeah. says when you go have alife, if you do in your webinars
on Tuesdays at 7pm. To like, Ireally try to use my attempts to
(28:33):
only work from 10 to six, Mondaythrough Friday, like I'm trying
really hard to have a lifeoutside of this work. Right make
room for wrist. So
Jessica Hartley (28:44):
make it room for us. I love that. Thank you.
Thank you for sharing. If youhad to think about a lot of the
women listening to this call,and a lot of the them they will
be women of color for allies towomen of color men out there as
well. What can we do to I guessprobably two parts. If you had
(29:09):
to think about how can weadvocate for ourselves? A lot of
us are professional women, andgreat salaries, amazing careers
can command a court room cancommand a board room can command
all these things. But there issomething that is scary,
particularly if you're going tothe doctor because something
(29:30):
doesn't feel right, something'soff. There is an apprehension.
And dare I say a little bit of,you know, intimidation when you
go to the doctor, even if it'ssomeone you trust, even if it's
someone you've been going to fora while. How can we advocate for
ourselves in those moments? It'salways hard.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (29:50):
I would say that, um, I think it's
almost impossible to be both thepatient and advocate frequently
asked people to have someonewith them. And I know that's
hard because we're so close.
customed to doing everything onour loan, and we're
Jessica Hartley (30:01):
private, yes, don't tell anybody, especially
people of color, don't tellanybody your business.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (30:07):
But the truth is, you're getting so much
information when you're in anyappointment. And so to be able
to absorb all that, and to beable to explain things without
having another ear withouthaving another person, like so
much gets lost in translation. Iwhen I both of my parents, and
last several years have bothbeen getting ill, and I don't
let them go to the doctor bythemselves. If they go by
themselves and make themFaceTime, the doctor comes in
(30:28):
the room, I mean, my childrenthe same way that you would
think about your children thatyou can't even imagine your
children going to thepediatrician alone, truthfully,
for black people, you shouldthink about that in general,
right? Like, we need anotherear, we need another person and
we need someone to support us tohear even someone that you
trust, because you hear itdifferently. I would love people
(30:48):
to bring someone in that whenthey see me as a patient,
because I want us all everybody,all hearts and minds are clear.
We all understand theinformation we feel comfortable
about the decisions that we'remaking together, that you need
to not feel like you're aloneand those things.
Jessica Hartley (31:02):
Yeah, I think that is amazing advice. And I
think something that all of uscan take away whether or not you
are a person of color or a womanis that support and that network
in Yes, you get here at wrong,you might get stuck and not be
able to ask additional follow upquestions that you normally
(31:23):
would have if you didn't justhad time to process in the
moment. So thank you for sharingthat. And then I guess as we
close in this has just been suchan amazing conversation. And I
have learned a lot in grow justas part of this and enjoy the
conversation even though we'retalking about some things that
are really challenging. Whatadvice would you have for
(31:45):
another young Joya coming uptrying to make decisions about
life and you know, so bringingthat sort of passion in purpose
and work and in sort of findingtheir place any advice you have
for and I say a young joy, itcould be joy in her 40s trying
to make a pivot. Yeah, we're allI feel like we're always
(32:08):
growing.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (32:08):
And that's changing my advice, honestly.
always growing. I just prayedyesterday, I was like, You know
what, I'll take another 50years. Good. If you want to give
it to me, I'll take it. Iunderstand if you don't want to
give it to me because I love Ifeel like I've lived three
different at least lifetime.
Jessica Hartley (32:23):
Mm hmm.
Dr. Joia Crear-Perry (32:24):
So being prepared for the changes or
being excited about the changes,excited about the new
opportunities excited aboutwhat's next lead with love and
not fear, you know, like, live alife out of curiosity and what
could happen next, and where canwe go? Every time I look to have
that openness. It's amazing.
When I let fear creep in, that'swhen things get hard and scary.
(32:47):
So even the middle of apandemic, I'm feeling love and
openness and excitement aboutwhat tomorrow could be.
Jessica Hartley (32:57):
And with that, we will thank you I love it,
lead with love and be open andanother 50 years. I'll do it. My
love Frenchies. Juice, beetjuice and crushes is gonna get
(33:17):
us there. I love it. Thank youso much joy for your time and
your beauty both inside and out.
This has been an absolute joyand pleasure. And I look forward
to hopefully having you on theshow again in the future. Thank
you. Okay. Thanks. Thank you forlistening to another episode of
(33:38):
hustle, grind, shine andreignite. If you'd like this
episode, like, subscribe andshare on all your favorite
podcast. I hope you'll tune into the next episode featuring
another amazing and talentedprofessional. In the meantime,
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