November 12, 2020 • 40 mins
Rev. Dr. George Mason is the senior pastor of Wilshire Baptist Church in Dallas, TX, founder of Faith Commons (a multi-faith organization that promotes the common good), and host of the Good God podcast. This week, he joins Hyphenated Life to discuss the secret to longevity and authenticity in leadership, poetry and pastoral theology, the wisdom of interfaith partnerships for the common good, and the changing shape of church in America today.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right.
Well, welcome to hyphenatedlife.
My name is Andrew Dardy and I'mjoined by my illustrious co-host
here,
Speaker 2 (00:06):
David[inaudible] today.
We're with George Mason, right?
He's uh, an old mentor colleaguefriend.
He kind of checks all the boxesfor you.
Doesn't he?
Speaker 1 (00:16):
He does check all the boxes for me.
Um, I've known George for almost20 years now.
Um, back when I thought that thechurch was irrelevant and the
church wasn't an organization, Ieven wanted to be part of, much
less a minister.
I met him, um, on Thanksgivingbreak in Dallas one year and
(00:37):
heard him preach and thought,wow, I think maybe I should
rethink whether or not I couldbecome a pastor if this is what
it could look like and soundlike.
And George has been a mentor.
And when I get really pious, Icall him a spiritual father, but
spiritual friend for sure on him.
Carra in the, uh, the Irishtradition of soul friend and
(00:58):
just somebody who's deeplyshaped my leadership and my
approach to what it means to,uh, be in the church.
Um, as a pastor.
And now in the last few years,he's branched out and done
several other creative projects,kind of like what we're doing
here with hyphenated life.
And so he has been a trailblazerfor, uh, you know, progressive
(01:20):
Baptist for the last 30 plusyears.
And doing that in one church isfairly remarkable and pretty
unheard of in our, in our dayand time.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Right.
Not even Tom Brady could make itall the way to that with his
organization and is now in TampaBay, Florida, the beautiful,
beautiful West coast of Floridathere.
So, um, so not only is, is he,you know, w I have a deep,
close, personal connection withyou, but what he's been up to
(01:51):
lately kind of seems like rightup our alley here, where we,
where we seek to toe that walland break it down between the
sacred and secular worlds.
He has a, and I'm sure we'llhear more about it, but what
he's done with his podcasts, thegood God podcasts, um, has, has
been really cool.
(02:12):
And, and, you know, I think aperfect guest, even if you
didn't already know him.
Right.
For sure.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The good God project is thepodcast that comes under the
umbrella of an organization,which is a multi-faith
organization.
He created in 2018 called faithcommons.
Uh, so yeah, the good Godproject, uh, it's an audio and
video podcast and, um, it's, uh,at the intersection of faith and
public life.
(02:39):
And so a lot of that revolvesaround the city of Dallas,
Texas, which is interestingbecause we hear all, all
politics is local is what, uh,the former speaker of the house,
uh, used to say in the eighties.
Um, and all worship is local interms of the church.
And in some ways, all theologyis local terms of the way we're
(02:59):
connecting with our community.
Do you know what I was born inDallas, Texas, you were born in
Dallas while I was born medicalcity, U S native Texan.
I, it makes me a Texan throughand through it.
Cool explains the one pair ofcowboy boots
Speaker 3 (03:27):
[inaudible]
Speaker 1 (03:27):
To hyphenated life.
We invite you to join us on thisjourney to explore the
connection of the sacred and thesecular that inspires us to
become more
Speaker 3 (03:48):
[inaudible].
Speaker 1 (03:48):
We are so delighted and grateful today to have
George Mason as ourdistinguished guest.
George has been the seniorpastor of Wilsher Baptist church
in Dallas, Texas since 1989.
He has been a trailblazingleader in a progressive Baptist
life, uh, for a long time.
He currently is the lead advisorfor the Baptist house of studies
(04:11):
at Perkins school of theology atSMU in Dallas, uh, in 2018,
George founded faith commons.
Faith commons is a multiethnicmulti faith organization
committed to bringing faith tolife by promoting the common
good.
You can find them at faith,commons.org.
And, uh, one of the mostinteresting things to me from a
(04:33):
distance is that he's alsocreated the good God project,
which is an audio and a videopodcast that explores, uh,
matters at the intersection offaith and public life and
interviewing some leading lightsin the city of Dallas.
Uh, George birthed and directs aclergy apprentice program called
pathways to ministry in Dallas.
(04:55):
I had the distinct honor ofgetting my vocational start at
Wilsher, uh, all cards face upon the table here being part of
the residency program.
Uh, and so George is a huge partof, of my life in ministry and
theological DNA.
Uh, he also contributes to theDallas morning news often on
subjects of public intereststhat intersect religion.
(05:19):
Uh, he is a native of New Yorkcity, and you can't see it
today, but he has a paintingbehind him as we record this
call of painting from New Yorkcity from 1932, I think, and
maybe, maybe George can even saysomething about it on today's
podcast, but a native of NewYork city, not a Southern
Baptist, uh, at all.
But I think he likes to say aBaptist in the South or
(05:42):
something like that, but anative new Yorker married to
Kim, a lovely woman, and theyhave three children and six
grandchildren.
I won't ask him, which is hisfavorite today, but, uh, that
would be funny, George, welcometo hyphenated life and for
taking time to be with us today.
We're so, so glad and gratefulyou have done, uh, done that.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
My pleasure, always a pleasure to be with you, Andrew,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Well, today, uh, George has sort of a, a certain
knack for not needing to, uh,over-prepare for things because
things flow now, things flow sonaturally for him.
That's one of the, what are theparts that I'm not totally like
him about?
Although there are many thingswe hold in common, uh, but
George, I thought today, I mean,it is so striking.
(06:28):
I think it would be to ourlisteners, many of our core
audience so far, uh, to hearthat you've been pastor of a
church since 1989, 31 years, uh,that involves some, some, uh,
amazing evolution.
I would imagine over that time.
So why don't we start today?
I'm just kind of curious abouthow you would describe, uh, your
(06:49):
own evolution about being ableto lead a church for 31 32
years.
What what's the secret to yourlongevity?
Speaker 4 (06:57):
Um, I would say not doing the same thing the same
way over and over again.
Uh, you know, the old story of,uh, the teacher who went in to
complain to the principalbecause she wasn't getting a
raise or hadn't gotten promotedthat year.
And she said, I've been teachinghere 20 years.
And the principal said, uh, Oh,and, and, and the person who did
(07:21):
get promoted or got the raisehad only been there two years.
And he said, uh, no, you haven'ttaught here 20 years.
Uh, you've, you've taught hereone year, 20 times.
She's taught here two years, youknow, and, and I think that that
illustrates, you know, somethingof this whole idea that if
(07:44):
you're going to stay in a place,you have to keep learning, you
have to keep reinventingyourself.
Uh, you have to keep, um,thinking in terms of, um, uh,
not only the continuity of yourrelationship with people, uh,
(08:04):
but also thinking about the, um,the moves that have to be made,
the ways that you, you grow andchange.
And so, uh, I, I think, uh, ithas to stay interesting.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
I think one of the ways you've made it stay
interesting, at least to mebeing under your tutelage for so
long, um, is, and, and I wasjust telling David this, even
before we hopped on theinterview today, one of the
things that stood out to meabout, uh, who you were and what
your journey has really beensince then, when I first met you
and heard you preach at Wilsherin Dallas, when I was green and
(08:41):
grin, and a total younggrasshopper, uh, ed, ready to,
you know, take the first flightout of the church at that point.
Uh, what really impressed me wasthat you are somebody who
integrates the things thatyou're passionate about in your
work, whether it's art, uh, yourpill, politically astute, uh,
your work in social advocacythese days, uh, your love of, of
(09:05):
things that just are about who,about who George is.
And you've brought that to bearin your work.
How have you been able to dothat?
And for some of our listenersmight be curious about how you
do that in a Baptist church,especially bring all of who you
are of the fully alive George toyour work in a way that probably
has contributed to thatlongevity in some ways, or most
(09:27):
ways.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
I, I appreciate you saying that.
Uh, I, I guess I'm not terriblyself-conscious about it, uh, or
intentional about it as astrategy so much as just a way
of life.
Um, it, it does seem to fit withthe idea of our spiritual
(09:51):
conviction.
That faith is always personaland incarnational.
Uh, Jesus of course we say isthe image of the invisible God
that God is with us in aparticular person, uh, in a
particular people, Israel, uh,through a particular people,
(10:14):
that church, uh, and you know,you look at your church's name
is pine street church.
It's a location, it's a, aparticular place.
It's not, um, you know, it's,it's not the street down the
street, it's that street andit's, and, and I think you're
not me and I'm not you.
(10:36):
And so I, I think all of theseparticular isms are really
important because, uh, you know,it sort of reminds me of, um,
okay, here we go.
The poet, w w H Auden Auden saidabout his poetry, that he hoped
(10:59):
that it would be like a goodValley cheese local, but prized
everywhere.
Yes.
Love that.
Right.
So that is to say, poetry isalways better.
If it's talking aboutparticulars, uh, not about
generalities and in theparticulars, then you can
(11:23):
generalize, you can findyourself in them.
So I would say, right, uh, overthe course of 31 years, I've
been, you know, more or lessinterested or passionate about
this or that subject or thismovement in my life, this thing
going on, how I'm changing andwhat's happening in me.
(11:43):
And it, it comes out in mypreaching.
Uh, it, um, uh, and it'sinevitable that it would because
they called me not somebodyelse.
Right.
And, uh, and there was a timewhen I was in my thirties and
now, now I'm in my sixties.
And so, you know, it just iswhat it is.
So all I'm saying really is, uh,that if you are authentically
(12:05):
yourself, then the, theleadership of the church, the
preaching, all of that will bereflective to some degree of who
you are.
And of course the trick is notto become, uh, so self-absorbed,
or self-referential thateverything, uh, ends up being
(12:29):
about you, but rather it,there's a, there's an openness
to other people to find theirstory alongside yours, because
you've actually opened yourselfup, uh, in, in certain ways,
sometimes that's telling a storyabout yourself.
Sometimes it's not even doingthat sometimes as you say, it's,
(12:51):
it's about, um, a particularinterest in history at this
moment that somebody else isinterested in history or poetry
or sports or something happening, uh, in, uh, at that time that,
that you've been throwingyourself into, uh, social
justice matters or, or some suchthing.
Uh, anyway, so yeah, I, I thinkthat is a key and, and of course
(13:15):
it does, uh, have the, um, thesense of how a church then
begins to become more and morereflective of the consistency of
its relationship to a pastorover time.
That has, uh, the, the, thepositive side of, uh, a cohesive
(13:41):
community that understandsitself in relationship to a
consistent, uh, leadership, uh,team.
And it also has, of course, thepotential downside of a church,
uh, becoming so associated witha particular person, uh, that
its identity then could be incrisis when something happens,
(14:04):
right?
The pastor gets hit by a bus orfalls off the pedestal in
whatever way.
Uh, and we all have seen thatsort of thing happened many,
many times, but, uh, I thinkthere were positive things to
come out of.
Long-term pastorates, especiallyif you have a generally healthy
pastor and a generally healthycongregation,
Speaker 1 (14:27):
I love what you're saying about particularity, and
there are certainly a few wayswe can go about that.
W David and I were talkingagain, before we hopped on today
about a tip O'Neill speaker ofthe house in the eighties, who
said, you know, all politics islocal, and you could kind of
break that down into what you'vedescribed.
You know, uh, all worship islocal or a church is local, as
(14:49):
you said, but the particularityof, and, uh, and, and the cheese
image from OD.
And I love that I'm going tohave to circle back and keep
that one in my pocket, butthat's also the move of the
particularity of I become, we,uh, and depending on who you
talk to, I believe it's Malcolmas Malcolm X who wants wrote,
uh, when I becomes, we, evenillness becomes wellness.
(15:12):
So even when you're in, you'rethe one who really taught me
about the power of pronouns andthe pulpit, by the way.
But, so if we're not, even whenwe're not saying, I, uh, even
when we're saying we givingvoice for the whole community,
in some sense, we're stilltelling part of our stories
there.
And I think that's part of thepower of that particularity or
that I becoming, we certainly,uh, in the art and craft of
(15:36):
preaching is as you weredescribing there in part,
Speaker 4 (15:41):
Right?
And I think a lot of this, uh,from the point of view of how to
lead a church as a pastorrequires that you have enough
faith and self-confidence thatbetween you and the church and
the presence of the spirit inyour life, uh, together you'll
(16:03):
have everything you need tofigure out how to be the church.
God wants you to be the thingthat is so disturbing to me at
times is the, um, the sort ofWalmart is a nation of the
church, uh, where there, therebecomes this sort of generic
(16:24):
model that succeeded in thisplace and became wildly, um,
expansive.
And everyone became envious ofthis model.
And now let's all go to schoolon that and turn our church into
a, sort of a satellite of that,uh, whether officially or
(16:44):
unofficially and, you know, thatdoesn't necessarily take account
of the geography and thedemography and the sociology and
the, you know, anthropology of aparticular place and people.
And, uh, so you know, it w weall go sort of whoring after the
(17:08):
latest, uh, most attractivemodel.
And I think, uh, we should, uh,pay a little more attention to
the uniqueness and confidencethat should come from our
training and history in our ownplace.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Yeah.
I think almost what I hear thereis a little bit, you talked
about being authentic with whoyou are, be, who you are on the
outside, be who you are on theinside.
I think that I was once giventhat as a definition of
integrity.
Um, and I think that's abeautiful thing.
And as you are on the inside,always changing what you are on
(17:49):
the
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Outside is always changing.
And you alluded to that as beinga giving life to no longevity in
a position.
And then I'm hearing now alsothat can kind of exist
organizationally, right?
If you, you work from the, ifyou work the wrong direction,
then you're, you're not creatingsomething that's true and
authentic and has integrity.
And, and therefore it's missingout on some substance and, and
(18:13):
really missing the Mark onwhatever it's trying to do.
Um, I know for me personally,um, music has been one of the,
the driving, uh, things in mylife personally, from creating
music, hearing music, listeningto music, and that has been one
of the most inspirational,impactful ideas in my life.
(18:38):
And as I sort of grew from, Iwas a music major, I have a
bachelor's and master's in musicand, and started here at pine
street church about 12 years agoas the bass section leader in
the choir.
And here I am 12 years later,um, not necessarily with a piece
of paper from a seminary, but alot of experience living in the
life of a church as a musician,and now as director of worship
(19:00):
and the arts.
And, um, one thing we have donehere is we've begun to
incorporate, what's consideredsecular music into a sacred
worship experience.
And for me, that comes fromlargely, um, that's, that's,
what's inside of me and what hasimpacted me and what led me
there.
And I think it's, it's very muchnaturally become a part of our
(19:25):
community here.
We have, uh, it it's gone from,you know, one song, maybe a Bob
Dylan song that references Godor Jesus or something 10 years
ago in the middle of a service.
And then a few months later,another song that wasn't in the
hymnal or in a praise book, andthen has kind of grown to this
idea where we really embracethat as part of our identity
(19:47):
here on the corner of 13th andpine street in downtown Boulder.
And we have an annual concertslash worship worship service on
good Friday every year, we callit a good Friday musical
meditation, and we select asecular album, um, from the Uber
of classical, you know, notclassical music, but classic
(20:07):
albums that are well-known.
For example, we've done a Steviewonder album songs in the key of
life.
Uh, we did a Joni Mitchellalbum, a Radiohead album, a
Pearl jam album, and w and wetake that musical experience and
frame it within the context of aguided meditative worship
experience.
(20:27):
I'm curious about your thoughtson, on if
Speaker 5 (20:31):
That sounds right or wrong or,
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Or, or somewhere in the middle, um, cause here at
hyphenated life, we really liketo delve into that place where
the sacred and secular worldscan seem at odds.
And we like to say that wall Dshouldn't exist and doesn't
exist.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Right.
So, you know, back to poetryagain, it's Wendell Berry, uh,
who, who talked about how thereare no, um, th there are, let's
see, what's his phrase, Andrew,do you know this one there's no
sacred or unsafe grid places?
Um, there are only sacred and,uh, desecrated places.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Yes, yes.
That really connects well to theMadeline lingo that we talk
about where we can reference alot.
I think maybe every episode sofar there is nothing so secular
that it cannot be sacred.
Yes.
Same idea from Wendell Berry.
Nice.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
Right.
So, yeah.
So I think David is, it's aninteresting observation, you
know, when you ask me aquestion, like, is it right or
wrong?
I would S I would say, we haveto learn that there's more than
one, right.
Answer to a lot of questions.
Uh, I heard a, um, or watched anold video tape of a guy who was
(21:51):
a photographer for, mm.
I don't know, um, maybe it waslook magazine or life or
something like that back in theday.
And he was, he was speaking tothe, um, million dollar round
table, which was like, uh, thisold, you know, sort of
salesmen's club, you know, thesold a million dollars worth of
(22:13):
stuff or something like that.
And, you know, 30 years ago, 40years ago, this was sort of a
big deal, I guess.
Anyway, he was talking about howfor every great photograph that
he took, um, that, that wasprinted in a photo, uh, spread
in a magazine or a journal.
(22:36):
He took, you know, maybehundreds of photographs of that
same scene.
And from among all of them,there might be, uh, you know, a
small handful that were right.
And some of them were more rightthan others.
(22:58):
And ultimately you have to kindof come down and say, you know,
there's more than one, right.
Answer here.
This one fits this better thanthat.
And, uh, and, and, and celebratethat, you know, not to say this
other approaches is wrong orbad, or there's this angle, this
(23:21):
perspective, this view of thingsnow, you know, that doesn't mean
that everything is equallyright.
Uh, I think that's part of thewhole process of canonization.
Say of scripture.
We have a Canon of these 66books.
Um, most of, at leastProtestantism Protestantism says
(23:42):
that.
Um, but you know, it doesn'tmean that there's no wisdom
outside those 66 books.
Right.
Uh, it, it means that the churchacross time has said, these are
the most right.
For the formation and shape ofour understanding of the faith.
(24:03):
And then we can read andappreciate, uh, great works of
art and literature and, andspiritual wisdom and other
traditions as well.
But these are most right for us.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Yeah.
I liked that.
I think, um, I think that'ssimilar to how we use it, uh,
here at pine street church, theidea of using, uh,
non-traditional sacred musicwithin the context of a
Christian worship service.
It it's certainly, um, from thevery beginning, our focus has
(24:37):
had, has been in, has alwaysbeen to frame it appropriately,
right.
So you're not just dropping itin because that's your thing
now, you're, you're, you'resaying, is there something that
could, that could enhance ourexperience of this common
language that we have that is,that comes from the Bible, you
(25:00):
know, and for that matter, youknow, the, every, every church
has a different hymnal in the,in the pews.
And those are not, you know,made by some power on high or
anything like that.
So in most of the music that wesing in churches, um,
particularly communally has beenwritten in the last hundred to
150 years.
(25:22):
So, you know, again, that's, Ithink a sign of times change and
people change and cities andtowns and blocks change in, um,
in the church as an organizationand institution changes in.
And, um, I think that's exactlyit that if, if there is a place
for it, then that's like yousaid, that's, if there is a
(25:43):
right answer for it, there arewrong answers for it, certainly.
But if, uh, if the case can bemade for it being the right
answer, then, then bring it on.
So to speak.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
And for the poet, Lauria, it's out there
listening.
Uh, we were trying to get theWendell Berry quote, right?
Uh, well, at least Andrew was,uh, there are no unsafe grid
places.
There are only sacred places anddesecrated places all need to
find a place to sit down.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
Nice.
I
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Love that clincher.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So finding places to sit down, Ithink it's what, what's what
we've done with, with goodFriday.
Good Friday night, um, musicalmeditation.
We've, uh, the last two yearswe've actually incorporated
George, uh, a more traditionalgood Friday liturgy that happens
before the good Friday night, amusical meditation concert that
(26:36):
David was just describing.
And it's interesting to me, youknow, it's one of those things
that you were mentioning earlierabout not, uh, you know, not
selling yourself out, so tospeak, uh, of the church, just
because what works in onelocation may not work in
another.
And that idea of particularitycoming back, uh, you know,
Boulder, Colorado is differentfrom Dallas, Texas, uh, on more
(26:58):
than one level.
And so, as we're, we've beenexperiencing what's going on
with these meditations, I can'thelp.
But notice though, you know, isthat the, the participation
level for that good Fridayconcert is very different than
for the good Friday traditionalliturgy, you know, and I know
that you're a good Moltmann isnear and dear to your heart,
historically theologically, youhad, uh, the great German
(27:21):
theologian, uh, but, uh, it'sone of those things where, how
do you live again in this hyphenspace?
And, uh, Moltmann talks aboutthe, uh, uh, the idea that
there's this dialectic ofrelevance and is dialectic of
identity.
So if we're thinking aboutidentity, what are we rooted and
grounded in, right.
This particularity, but, but ifthe more we cloak ourselves in
(27:45):
the language of the church andin language and rituals that may
not, uh, immediately translateto folks that don't have a
connection to the church in someway, uh, we risk relevance on
the other hand.
And so I think for me that goodFriday moment of, of that
liturgy and of the, of themeditation really brings that
(28:06):
together in a way that I'm onlythinking about this right now,
but that's one of the ways we dolive in a, in the dash or in the
hyphen space as a church in thiswhole mix of identity and
relevance that we're constantlysort of, uh, you know,
negotiating and translating fromthe church to the community.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
Uh, I'm not sure this is, um, exactly right, but, you
know, Debbie was talking abouthow we sing out of hymnals.
Um, uh, most of the time inworship hymns that have been
written in the last 150 years orso, and, you know, that's right,
but you also have in a placelike Boulder, especially people
(28:47):
who don't know that him though,right?
So that's not a song that'sgoing around in their head.
They have a different kind ofhymnal per se.
That is part of their cannon.
That's well, you know, there,there's kind of a humble, uh,
right, that that's happening intheir ear of a different kind of
(29:09):
music.
And when they come to church, ifthere's no way to connect those
two things, uh, th thedisconnect is, is going to mean
a loss of potential relationshipand community.
So you're, you're working thathyphen to try to get together
the hymnal in the humble.
I think it's
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Nice.
I sort of, uh, in a time we haveleft, I want to circle back to
this, uh, what particularitiesreally bubbling up specificity,
particularity, uh, location.
So, George, I want to give achance for you to talk a little
bit, you know, we probably havesome, eventually we'll have some
common listeners, but for folks,especially in our Boulder
(29:54):
community.
And, uh, and here in yonder thatmay not know about, uh, your
work with faith commons, whatkind of brought you to create
that, uh, and how the good Godproject, uh, I believe emerged
out of that.
Uh, could you just say a littlebit about your work in those
spaces, and especially assomebody who's deeply in rooted,
(30:15):
uh, at the Jesus story, it hadChristian tradition, uh, how you
navigate those richrelationships with, uh, faith
leaders around Dallas, that youhave really created some
powerful partnerships andfriendships with,
Speaker 6 (30:29):
Thank you for asking about that.
And I think it goes to somethingthat you said earlier about how
you stay fresh and stay in aplace for a long time.
And you talked about how we gothrough different phases in our
lives and are interested in newthings.
What energizes me right now inthis chapter of my life, I guess
(30:51):
you might say is that while Ihave served a Christian
congregation of Baptist, one ofthe sort, uh, for these 31
years, and before that, even as,as a Baptist, um, I am
especially interested in seeingAmerica rise up and live out the
(31:14):
meaning of its creed.
Uh, not just that all men andwomen are created equal as, um,
you know, King said in his, inhis speech, but, uh, in
referring obviously to thedeclaration of independence, but
also that first amendment, uh,which, um, talks about, uh, the
equality of our religioustraditions before the law.
(31:38):
Uh, we have been historically a,uh, want to be pluralist nation,
uh, in terms of our laws, but wehave been, uh, that's only a
Deseret theory if it's notpracticed, uh, defacto, right?
So, um, what we know is thatthat historically, uh,
(32:01):
non-Christians have felt largelymarginalized and, uh, tolerated,
not celebrated as equal partnerswith a voice that's worth paying
attention to, uh, and, you know,we maybe have had historically
more Christians than wecertainly have then, uh, as a
(32:24):
religious body than Jews orMuslims or other religions.
But we live in a time today ofglobalization, of immigration,
of, uh, of intermarriage amongreligious groups.
We live in a time when that iscreating increasing anxiety in
(32:45):
our culture, the feeling thatthere is a loss of Christian had
Gemini, much of what's happenedin the support of, uh, Donald
Trump by white evangelicals is,uh, it is expression of this
anxiety among a certainChristians that their place in
(33:07):
our society is no longer beingvalued as for its primacy in
shaping culture, uh, that, thatothers are having to be deferred
to.
We can't say Merry Christmasanymore in public.
What does that mean?
You know, uh, you know, who'sgoing to tell me, I shouldn't be
able to say America as well.
Actually.
That's not really the point andit's, it's more, uh, well,
(33:30):
anyway, I could get off, but you, you say, why have I moved in
this direction?
Why I've moved in this directionis to, is to bear, witness
through my faith, to my friendswho are Jewish and Muslim and
high and Hindu and Buddhist and,uh, and other religious
(33:52):
traditions that they matter tome.
And they should have a voicethat, that should be heard by
others.
And so whether it's in the goodGod podcast or through faith
commons working together side byside and in a community
together, that's what we'retrying to, uh, to say, and to
all contribute together to thecommon.
(34:13):
Good.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Yeah.
I really, you, you use thecomparison of the terms,
tolerance versus celebration.
That's been a drum that I havehave been pounding for a while
that, you know, the solution toracial intolerance is not racial
tolerance, it's celebratingdiversity.
Um, and it, it gets back alittle bit to, you know, this
(34:36):
common tongue thing a little bit, um, when you bring all these
diverse communities together,that becomes a challenge and it
takes energy and effort andpassion and patience.
Um, you know, not, not everybodygrew up playing tiddlywinks and,
uh,
Speaker 6 (34:53):
So know that.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
And, uh, so I, I love those listening.
You don't know, George is atheologian of tiddlywinks
Speaker 6 (35:04):
Put that in there.
Okay.
But this is the thing, right?
So theology is about everything.
Yes.
I remember.
I remember when, um, when I wastrying to decide on a major
subject for, uh, my, um, PhDwork, um, I settled on
systematic theology because Iwent to see, uh, my advisor and
(35:27):
he was talking about, you know,how you could do new Testament.
You could do well Testament.
You could do, you know,Christian ethics.
You could do, you know, allthese different things.
And you said that you could dosystematic theology, but that's
about everything.
And so I said, okay, well that'sfor me, there it is.
Yes.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Yes.
I think that it, it takes worklike you're doing, and I, I
certainly applaud that.
And it's something that we, wetalk about here and we move
towards that.
Um, and maybe by year 31, we'll,we'll have gotten there or
closer to that.
Um, you know, w who was amother, Teresa said, I'm in love
(36:06):
with, sorry, I love allreligions, but I'm in love with
my religion.
You know, that sort ofperspective could go such a long
way in these times.
And you're, you know, you'renoting that giving up power is
whether you realize that'swhat's happening or not, is a
difficult thing to do foranybody individually and
culturally.
(36:27):
And, and what happens whenyou're, when you have anxiety
and fear is you lash out in.
And so what's the solution tothat.
And I think what you're doingis, is amazing.
And I thank you for it.
Speaker 6 (36:41):
Well, thank you for saying, so I would say that it's
not simply a, uh, concession,uh, and, and I know you're not
saying that, but I think formany people there, it may be a
suggestion that by giving upsome sense of privilege of
priority, that there's, again,this sort of noble, uh, sort of,
(37:04):
um, uh, gift that you're givingto others.
Uh, again, first of all, wehave, we have to re-examine I
think, uh, how much we haveactually taken it upon ourselves
to Rob them of their rightfulplace by presuming to own the
space, you know, on our own.
(37:27):
But the other thing I thinkthat's a really rich is that you
don't give up anything in faiththat doesn't come back to you in
so much more, um, beautifulblessings, uh, that it it's sort
(37:49):
of like, you know, that, thatpassage that we think only
refers to tithing in the book ofMalakai, that if you, you know,
you give your 10%, then youknow, it'll come back, you know,
there'll be crushed and presseddown and broken, and then come
back, you know, many falls orlike Jesus, um, uh, jesus' words
(38:11):
about how, uh, unless a seeddies, you know, it remains just
to see, but when it dies andthen it can bring forth a great
harvest.
I think the church in Americahas to start to understand that
about itself, better thatinstead of the narrative that,
(38:31):
Oh, we are dying because wedon't have the, of people coming
to our churches anymore.
What can we do to make it seemthat we, uh, are reviving
ourselves?
You know, what, if we actuallysaw this idea of, of death as
really just a gift of giving upto our neighbors, uh, this sense
(38:55):
of love and relationship that wew we now are partners with one
another, what would happen to usif we learn to see ourself and
celebrate that we, by giving upour finding, uh, and receiving
so much more.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Yeah, I, it, I almost hear in that Wendell Berry
quote, where it's like, we'replaying musical chairs and we've
been taking up two seats at the,in, in the game, you know, and
it's time to say, Oh, there'sroom.
You know what?
You can have this seat.
I don't need two seats in thisworld where, you know, where
there's only enough sacred seatsto go around.
(39:34):
Other than that, it's justdesecrated seats.
So, um, yeah, I think,
Speaker 6 (39:39):
Yeah.
Who is it bright?
Was it black Brian McLaren whotalked about build a bigger
table?
You know, if there's not enoughroom at the table, build a big
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Hyphenated.
Life is a production of pinestreet church in Boulder,
Colorado hosted by AndrewDoherty and David[inaudible].
The podcast is produced by PhilNorman and executive producer,
Alexi Molden, a special thanksto our guests today and the Leal
Hill trust of Boulder, Colorado.
All right.
Well, welcome to hyphenatedlife.
My name is Andrew Dardy and I'mjoined by my illustrious co-host
here,
Speaker 2 (00:06):
David[inaudible] today.
We're with George Mason, right?
He's uh, an old mentor colleaguefriend.
He kind of checks all the boxesfor you.
Doesn't he?
Speaker 1 (00:16):
He does check all the boxes for me.
Um, I've known George for almost20 years now.
Um, back when I thought that thechurch was irrelevant and the
church wasn't an organization, Ieven wanted to be part of, much
less a minister.
I met him, um, on Thanksgivingbreak in Dallas one year and
(00:37):
heard him preach and thought,wow, I think maybe I should
rethink whether or not I couldbecome a pastor if this is what
it could look like and soundlike.
And George has been a mentor.
And when I get really pious, Icall him a spiritual father, but
spiritual friend for sure on him.
Carra in the, uh, the Irishtradition of soul friend and
(00:58):
just somebody who's deeplyshaped my leadership and my
approach to what it means to,uh, be in the church.
Um, as a pastor.
And now in the last few years,he's branched out and done
several other creative projects,kind of like what we're doing
here with hyphenated life.
And so he has been a trailblazerfor, uh, you know, progressive
(01:20):
Baptist for the last 30 plusyears.
And doing that in one church isfairly remarkable and pretty
unheard of in our, in our dayand time.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Right.
Not even Tom Brady could make itall the way to that with his
organization and is now in TampaBay, Florida, the beautiful,
beautiful West coast of Floridathere.
So, um, so not only is, is he,you know, w I have a deep,
close, personal connection withyou, but what he's been up to
(01:51):
lately kind of seems like rightup our alley here, where we,
where we seek to toe that walland break it down between the
sacred and secular worlds.
He has a, and I'm sure we'llhear more about it, but what
he's done with his podcasts, thegood God podcasts, um, has, has
been really cool.
(02:12):
And, and, you know, I think aperfect guest, even if you
didn't already know him.
Right.
For sure.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The good God project is thepodcast that comes under the
umbrella of an organization,which is a multi-faith
organization.
He created in 2018 called faithcommons.
Uh, so yeah, the good Godproject, uh, it's an audio and
video podcast and, um, it's, uh,at the intersection of faith and
public life.
(02:39):
And so a lot of that revolvesaround the city of Dallas,
Texas, which is interestingbecause we hear all, all
politics is local is what, uh,the former speaker of the house,
uh, used to say in the eighties.
Um, and all worship is local interms of the church.
And in some ways, all theologyis local terms of the way we're
(02:59):
connecting with our community.
Do you know what I was born inDallas, Texas, you were born in
Dallas while I was born medicalcity, U S native Texan.
I, it makes me a Texan throughand through it.
Cool explains the one pair ofcowboy boots
Speaker 3 (03:27):
[inaudible]
Speaker 1 (03:27):
To hyphenated life.
We invite you to join us on thisjourney to explore the
connection of the sacred and thesecular that inspires us to
become more
Speaker 3 (03:48):
[inaudible].
Speaker 1 (03:48):
We are so delighted and grateful today to have
George Mason as ourdistinguished guest.
George has been the seniorpastor of Wilsher Baptist church
in Dallas, Texas since 1989.
He has been a trailblazingleader in a progressive Baptist
life, uh, for a long time.
He currently is the lead advisorfor the Baptist house of studies
(04:11):
at Perkins school of theology atSMU in Dallas, uh, in 2018,
George founded faith commons.
Faith commons is a multiethnicmulti faith organization
committed to bringing faith tolife by promoting the common
good.
You can find them at faith,commons.org.
And, uh, one of the mostinteresting things to me from a
(04:33):
distance is that he's alsocreated the good God project,
which is an audio and a videopodcast that explores, uh,
matters at the intersection offaith and public life and
interviewing some leading lightsin the city of Dallas.
Uh, George birthed and directs aclergy apprentice program called
pathways to ministry in Dallas.
(04:55):
I had the distinct honor ofgetting my vocational start at
Wilsher, uh, all cards face upon the table here being part of
the residency program.
Uh, and so George is a huge partof, of my life in ministry and
theological DNA.
Uh, he also contributes to theDallas morning news often on
subjects of public intereststhat intersect religion.
(05:19):
Uh, he is a native of New Yorkcity, and you can't see it
today, but he has a paintingbehind him as we record this
call of painting from New Yorkcity from 1932, I think, and
maybe, maybe George can even saysomething about it on today's
podcast, but a native of NewYork city, not a Southern
Baptist, uh, at all.
But I think he likes to say aBaptist in the South or
(05:42):
something like that, but anative new Yorker married to
Kim, a lovely woman, and theyhave three children and six
grandchildren.
I won't ask him, which is hisfavorite today, but, uh, that
would be funny, George, welcometo hyphenated life and for
taking time to be with us today.
We're so, so glad and gratefulyou have done, uh, done that.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
My pleasure, always a pleasure to be with you, Andrew,
thank you.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Well, today, uh, George has sort of a, a certain
knack for not needing to, uh,over-prepare for things because
things flow now, things flow sonaturally for him.
That's one of the, what are theparts that I'm not totally like
him about?
Although there are many thingswe hold in common, uh, but
George, I thought today, I mean,it is so striking.
(06:28):
I think it would be to ourlisteners, many of our core
audience so far, uh, to hearthat you've been pastor of a
church since 1989, 31 years, uh,that involves some, some, uh,
amazing evolution.
I would imagine over that time.
So why don't we start today?
I'm just kind of curious abouthow you would describe, uh, your
(06:49):
own evolution about being ableto lead a church for 31 32
years.
What what's the secret to yourlongevity?
Speaker 4 (06:57):
Um, I would say not doing the same thing the same
way over and over again.
Uh, you know, the old story of,uh, the teacher who went in to
complain to the principalbecause she wasn't getting a
raise or hadn't gotten promotedthat year.
And she said, I've been teachinghere 20 years.
And the principal said, uh, Oh,and, and, and the person who did
(07:21):
get promoted or got the raisehad only been there two years.
And he said, uh, no, you haven'ttaught here 20 years.
Uh, you've, you've taught hereone year, 20 times.
She's taught here two years, youknow, and, and I think that that
illustrates, you know, somethingof this whole idea that if
(07:44):
you're going to stay in a place,you have to keep learning, you
have to keep reinventingyourself.
Uh, you have to keep, um,thinking in terms of, um, uh,
not only the continuity of yourrelationship with people, uh,
(08:04):
but also thinking about the, um,the moves that have to be made,
the ways that you, you grow andchange.
And so, uh, I, I think, uh, ithas to stay interesting.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
I think one of the ways you've made it stay
interesting, at least to mebeing under your tutelage for so
long, um, is, and, and I wasjust telling David this, even
before we hopped on theinterview today, one of the
things that stood out to meabout, uh, who you were and what
your journey has really beensince then, when I first met you
and heard you preach at Wilsherin Dallas, when I was green and
(08:41):
grin, and a total younggrasshopper, uh, ed, ready to,
you know, take the first flightout of the church at that point.
Uh, what really impressed me wasthat you are somebody who
integrates the things thatyou're passionate about in your
work, whether it's art, uh, yourpill, politically astute, uh,
your work in social advocacythese days, uh, your love of, of
(09:05):
things that just are about who,about who George is.
And you've brought that to bearin your work.
How have you been able to dothat?
And for some of our listenersmight be curious about how you
do that in a Baptist church,especially bring all of who you
are of the fully alive George toyour work in a way that probably
has contributed to thatlongevity in some ways, or most
(09:27):
ways.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
I, I appreciate you saying that.
Uh, I, I guess I'm not terriblyself-conscious about it, uh, or
intentional about it as astrategy so much as just a way
of life.
Um, it, it does seem to fit withthe idea of our spiritual
(09:51):
conviction.
That faith is always personaland incarnational.
Uh, Jesus of course we say isthe image of the invisible God
that God is with us in aparticular person, uh, in a
particular people, Israel, uh,through a particular people,
(10:14):
that church, uh, and you know,you look at your church's name
is pine street church.
It's a location, it's a, aparticular place.
It's not, um, you know, it's,it's not the street down the
street, it's that street andit's, and, and I think you're
not me and I'm not you.
(10:36):
And so I, I think all of theseparticular isms are really
important because, uh, you know,it sort of reminds me of, um,
okay, here we go.
The poet, w w H Auden Auden saidabout his poetry, that he hoped
(10:59):
that it would be like a goodValley cheese local, but prized
everywhere.
Yes.
Love that.
Right.
So that is to say, poetry isalways better.
If it's talking aboutparticulars, uh, not about
generalities and in theparticulars, then you can
(11:23):
generalize, you can findyourself in them.
So I would say, right, uh, overthe course of 31 years, I've
been, you know, more or lessinterested or passionate about
this or that subject or thismovement in my life, this thing
going on, how I'm changing andwhat's happening in me.
(11:43):
And it, it comes out in mypreaching.
Uh, it, um, uh, and it'sinevitable that it would because
they called me not somebodyelse.
Right.
And, uh, and there was a timewhen I was in my thirties and
now, now I'm in my sixties.
And so, you know, it just iswhat it is.
So all I'm saying really is, uh,that if you are authentically
(12:05):
yourself, then the, theleadership of the church, the
preaching, all of that will bereflective to some degree of who
you are.
And of course the trick is notto become, uh, so self-absorbed,
or self-referential thateverything, uh, ends up being
(12:29):
about you, but rather it,there's a, there's an openness
to other people to find theirstory alongside yours, because
you've actually opened yourselfup, uh, in, in certain ways,
sometimes that's telling a storyabout yourself.
Sometimes it's not even doingthat sometimes as you say, it's,
(12:51):
it's about, um, a particularinterest in history at this
moment that somebody else isinterested in history or poetry
or sports or something happening, uh, in, uh, at that time that,
that you've been throwingyourself into, uh, social
justice matters or, or some suchthing.
Uh, anyway, so yeah, I, I thinkthat is a key and, and of course
(13:15):
it does, uh, have the, um, thesense of how a church then
begins to become more and morereflective of the consistency of
its relationship to a pastorover time.
That has, uh, the, the, thepositive side of, uh, a cohesive
(13:41):
community that understandsitself in relationship to a
consistent, uh, leadership, uh,team.
And it also has, of course, thepotential downside of a church,
uh, becoming so associated witha particular person, uh, that
its identity then could be incrisis when something happens,
(14:04):
right?
The pastor gets hit by a bus orfalls off the pedestal in
whatever way.
Uh, and we all have seen thatsort of thing happened many,
many times, but, uh, I thinkthere were positive things to
come out of.
Long-term pastorates, especiallyif you have a generally healthy
pastor and a generally healthycongregation,
Speaker 1 (14:27):
I love what you're saying about particularity, and
there are certainly a few wayswe can go about that.
W David and I were talkingagain, before we hopped on today
about a tip O'Neill speaker ofthe house in the eighties, who
said, you know, all politics islocal, and you could kind of
break that down into what you'vedescribed.
You know, uh, all worship islocal or a church is local, as
(14:49):
you said, but the particularityof, and, uh, and, and the cheese
image from OD.
And I love that I'm going tohave to circle back and keep
that one in my pocket, butthat's also the move of the
particularity of I become, we,uh, and depending on who you
talk to, I believe it's Malcolmas Malcolm X who wants wrote,
uh, when I becomes, we, evenillness becomes wellness.
(15:12):
So even when you're in, you'rethe one who really taught me
about the power of pronouns andthe pulpit, by the way.
But, so if we're not, even whenwe're not saying, I, uh, even
when we're saying we givingvoice for the whole community,
in some sense, we're stilltelling part of our stories
there.
And I think that's part of thepower of that particularity or
that I becoming, we certainly,uh, in the art and craft of
(15:36):
preaching is as you weredescribing there in part,
Speaker 4 (15:41):
Right?
And I think a lot of this, uh,from the point of view of how to
lead a church as a pastorrequires that you have enough
faith and self-confidence thatbetween you and the church and
the presence of the spirit inyour life, uh, together you'll
(16:03):
have everything you need tofigure out how to be the church.
God wants you to be the thingthat is so disturbing to me at
times is the, um, the sort ofWalmart is a nation of the
church, uh, where there, therebecomes this sort of generic
(16:24):
model that succeeded in thisplace and became wildly, um,
expansive.
And everyone became envious ofthis model.
And now let's all go to schoolon that and turn our church into
a, sort of a satellite of that,uh, whether officially or
(16:44):
unofficially and, you know, thatdoesn't necessarily take account
of the geography and thedemography and the sociology and
the, you know, anthropology of aparticular place and people.
And, uh, so you know, it w weall go sort of whoring after the
(17:08):
latest, uh, most attractivemodel.
And I think, uh, we should, uh,pay a little more attention to
the uniqueness and confidencethat should come from our
training and history in our ownplace.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Yeah.
I think almost what I hear thereis a little bit, you talked
about being authentic with whoyou are, be, who you are on the
outside, be who you are on theinside.
I think that I was once giventhat as a definition of
integrity.
Um, and I think that's abeautiful thing.
And as you are on the inside,always changing what you are on
(17:49):
the
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Outside is always changing.
And you alluded to that as beinga giving life to no longevity in
a position.
And then I'm hearing now alsothat can kind of exist
organizationally, right?
If you, you work from the, ifyou work the wrong direction,
then you're, you're not creatingsomething that's true and
authentic and has integrity.
And, and therefore it's missingout on some substance and, and
(18:13):
really missing the Mark onwhatever it's trying to do.
Um, I know for me personally,um, music has been one of the,
the driving, uh, things in mylife personally, from creating
music, hearing music, listeningto music, and that has been one
of the most inspirational,impactful ideas in my life.
(18:38):
And as I sort of grew from, Iwas a music major, I have a
bachelor's and master's in musicand, and started here at pine
street church about 12 years agoas the bass section leader in
the choir.
And here I am 12 years later,um, not necessarily with a piece
of paper from a seminary, but alot of experience living in the
life of a church as a musician,and now as director of worship
(19:00):
and the arts.
And, um, one thing we have donehere is we've begun to
incorporate, what's consideredsecular music into a sacred
worship experience.
And for me, that comes fromlargely, um, that's, that's,
what's inside of me and what hasimpacted me and what led me
there.
And I think it's, it's very muchnaturally become a part of our
(19:25):
community here.
We have, uh, it it's gone from,you know, one song, maybe a Bob
Dylan song that references Godor Jesus or something 10 years
ago in the middle of a service.
And then a few months later,another song that wasn't in the
hymnal or in a praise book, andthen has kind of grown to this
idea where we really embracethat as part of our identity
(19:47):
here on the corner of 13th andpine street in downtown Boulder.
And we have an annual concertslash worship worship service on
good Friday every year, we callit a good Friday musical
meditation, and we select asecular album, um, from the Uber
of classical, you know, notclassical music, but classic
(20:07):
albums that are well-known.
For example, we've done a Steviewonder album songs in the key of
life.
Uh, we did a Joni Mitchellalbum, a Radiohead album, a
Pearl jam album, and w and wetake that musical experience and
frame it within the context of aguided meditative worship
experience.
(20:27):
I'm curious about your thoughtson, on if
Speaker 5 (20:31):
That sounds right or wrong or,
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Or, or somewhere in the middle, um, cause here at
hyphenated life, we really liketo delve into that place where
the sacred and secular worldscan seem at odds.
And we like to say that wall Dshouldn't exist and doesn't
exist.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Right.
So, you know, back to poetryagain, it's Wendell Berry, uh,
who, who talked about how thereare no, um, th there are, let's
see, what's his phrase, Andrew,do you know this one there's no
sacred or unsafe grid places?
Um, there are only sacred and,uh, desecrated places.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Yes, yes.
That really connects well to theMadeline lingo that we talk
about where we can reference alot.
I think maybe every episode sofar there is nothing so secular
that it cannot be sacred.
Yes.
Same idea from Wendell Berry.
Nice.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
Right.
So, yeah.
So I think David is, it's aninteresting observation, you
know, when you ask me aquestion, like, is it right or
wrong?
I would S I would say, we haveto learn that there's more than
one, right.
Answer to a lot of questions.
Uh, I heard a, um, or watched anold video tape of a guy who was
(21:51):
a photographer for, mm.
I don't know, um, maybe it waslook magazine or life or
something like that back in theday.
And he was, he was speaking tothe, um, million dollar round
table, which was like, uh, thisold, you know, sort of
salesmen's club, you know, thesold a million dollars worth of
(22:13):
stuff or something like that.
And, you know, 30 years ago, 40years ago, this was sort of a
big deal, I guess.
Anyway, he was talking about howfor every great photograph that
he took, um, that, that wasprinted in a photo, uh, spread
in a magazine or a journal.
(22:36):
He took, you know, maybehundreds of photographs of that
same scene.
And from among all of them,there might be, uh, you know, a
small handful that were right.
And some of them were more rightthan others.
(22:58):
And ultimately you have to kindof come down and say, you know,
there's more than one, right.
Answer here.
This one fits this better thanthat.
And, uh, and, and, and celebratethat, you know, not to say this
other approaches is wrong orbad, or there's this angle, this
(23:21):
perspective, this view of thingsnow, you know, that doesn't mean
that everything is equallyright.
Uh, I think that's part of thewhole process of canonization.
Say of scripture.
We have a Canon of these 66books.
Um, most of, at leastProtestantism Protestantism says
(23:42):
that.
Um, but you know, it doesn'tmean that there's no wisdom
outside those 66 books.
Right.
Uh, it, it means that the churchacross time has said, these are
the most right.
For the formation and shape ofour understanding of the faith.
(24:03):
And then we can read andappreciate, uh, great works of
art and literature and, andspiritual wisdom and other
traditions as well.
But these are most right for us.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Yeah.
I liked that.
I think, um, I think that'ssimilar to how we use it, uh,
here at pine street church, theidea of using, uh,
non-traditional sacred musicwithin the context of a
Christian worship service.
It it's certainly, um, from thevery beginning, our focus has
(24:37):
had, has been in, has alwaysbeen to frame it appropriately,
right.
So you're not just dropping itin because that's your thing
now, you're, you're, you'resaying, is there something that
could, that could enhance ourexperience of this common
language that we have that is,that comes from the Bible, you
(25:00):
know, and for that matter, youknow, the, every, every church
has a different hymnal in the,in the pews.
And those are not, you know,made by some power on high or
anything like that.
So in most of the music that wesing in churches, um,
particularly communally has beenwritten in the last hundred to
150 years.
(25:22):
So, you know, again, that's, Ithink a sign of times change and
people change and cities andtowns and blocks change in, um,
in the church as an organizationand institution changes in.
And, um, I think that's exactlyit that if, if there is a place
for it, then that's like yousaid, that's, if there is a
(25:43):
right answer for it, there arewrong answers for it, certainly.
But if, uh, if the case can bemade for it being the right
answer, then, then bring it on.
So to speak.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
And for the poet, Lauria, it's out there
listening.
Uh, we were trying to get theWendell Berry quote, right?
Uh, well, at least Andrew was,uh, there are no unsafe grid
places.
There are only sacred places anddesecrated places all need to
find a place to sit down.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
Nice.
I
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Love that clincher.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So finding places to sit down, Ithink it's what, what's what
we've done with, with goodFriday.
Good Friday night, um, musicalmeditation.
We've, uh, the last two yearswe've actually incorporated
George, uh, a more traditionalgood Friday liturgy that happens
before the good Friday night, amusical meditation concert that
(26:36):
David was just describing.
And it's interesting to me, youknow, it's one of those things
that you were mentioning earlierabout not, uh, you know, not
selling yourself out, so tospeak, uh, of the church, just
because what works in onelocation may not work in
another.
And that idea of particularitycoming back, uh, you know,
Boulder, Colorado is differentfrom Dallas, Texas, uh, on more
(26:58):
than one level.
And so, as we're, we've beenexperiencing what's going on
with these meditations, I can'thelp.
But notice though, you know, isthat the, the participation
level for that good Fridayconcert is very different than
for the good Friday traditionalliturgy, you know, and I know
that you're a good Moltmann isnear and dear to your heart,
historically theologically, youhad, uh, the great German
(27:21):
theologian, uh, but, uh, it'sone of those things where, how
do you live again in this hyphenspace?
And, uh, Moltmann talks aboutthe, uh, uh, the idea that
there's this dialectic ofrelevance and is dialectic of
identity.
So if we're thinking aboutidentity, what are we rooted and
grounded in, right.
This particularity, but, but ifthe more we cloak ourselves in
(27:45):
the language of the church andin language and rituals that may
not, uh, immediately translateto folks that don't have a
connection to the church in someway, uh, we risk relevance on
the other hand.
And so I think for me that goodFriday moment of, of that
liturgy and of the, of themeditation really brings that
(28:06):
together in a way that I'm onlythinking about this right now,
but that's one of the ways we dolive in a, in the dash or in the
hyphen space as a church in thiswhole mix of identity and
relevance that we're constantlysort of, uh, you know,
negotiating and translating fromthe church to the community.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
Uh, I'm not sure this is, um, exactly right, but, you
know, Debbie was talking abouthow we sing out of hymnals.
Um, uh, most of the time inworship hymns that have been
written in the last 150 years orso, and, you know, that's right,
but you also have in a placelike Boulder, especially people
(28:47):
who don't know that him though,right?
So that's not a song that'sgoing around in their head.
They have a different kind ofhymnal per se.
That is part of their cannon.
That's well, you know, there,there's kind of a humble, uh,
right, that that's happening intheir ear of a different kind of
(29:09):
music.
And when they come to church, ifthere's no way to connect those
two things, uh, th thedisconnect is, is going to mean
a loss of potential relationshipand community.
So you're, you're working thathyphen to try to get together
the hymnal in the humble.
I think it's
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Nice.
I sort of, uh, in a time we haveleft, I want to circle back to
this, uh, what particularitiesreally bubbling up specificity,
particularity, uh, location.
So, George, I want to give achance for you to talk a little
bit, you know, we probably havesome, eventually we'll have some
common listeners, but for folks,especially in our Boulder
(29:54):
community.
And, uh, and here in yonder thatmay not know about, uh, your
work with faith commons, whatkind of brought you to create
that, uh, and how the good Godproject, uh, I believe emerged
out of that.
Uh, could you just say a littlebit about your work in those
spaces, and especially assomebody who's deeply in rooted,
(30:15):
uh, at the Jesus story, it hadChristian tradition, uh, how you
navigate those richrelationships with, uh, faith
leaders around Dallas, that youhave really created some
powerful partnerships andfriendships with,
Speaker 6 (30:29):
Thank you for asking about that.
And I think it goes to somethingthat you said earlier about how
you stay fresh and stay in aplace for a long time.
And you talked about how we gothrough different phases in our
lives and are interested in newthings.
What energizes me right now inthis chapter of my life, I guess
(30:51):
you might say is that while Ihave served a Christian
congregation of Baptist, one ofthe sort, uh, for these 31
years, and before that, even as,as a Baptist, um, I am
especially interested in seeingAmerica rise up and live out the
(31:14):
meaning of its creed.
Uh, not just that all men andwomen are created equal as, um,
you know, King said in his, inhis speech, but, uh, in
referring obviously to thedeclaration of independence, but
also that first amendment, uh,which, um, talks about, uh, the
equality of our religioustraditions before the law.
(31:38):
Uh, we have been historically a,uh, want to be pluralist nation,
uh, in terms of our laws, but wehave been, uh, that's only a
Deseret theory if it's notpracticed, uh, defacto, right?
So, um, what we know is thatthat historically, uh,
(32:01):
non-Christians have felt largelymarginalized and, uh, tolerated,
not celebrated as equal partnerswith a voice that's worth paying
attention to, uh, and, you know,we maybe have had historically
more Christians than wecertainly have then, uh, as a
(32:24):
religious body than Jews orMuslims or other religions.
But we live in a time today ofglobalization, of immigration,
of, uh, of intermarriage amongreligious groups.
We live in a time when that iscreating increasing anxiety in
(32:45):
our culture, the feeling thatthere is a loss of Christian had
Gemini, much of what's happenedin the support of, uh, Donald
Trump by white evangelicals is,uh, it is expression of this
anxiety among a certainChristians that their place in
(33:07):
our society is no longer beingvalued as for its primacy in
shaping culture, uh, that, thatothers are having to be deferred
to.
We can't say Merry Christmasanymore in public.
What does that mean?
You know, uh, you know, who'sgoing to tell me, I shouldn't be
able to say America as well.
Actually.
That's not really the point andit's, it's more, uh, well,
(33:30):
anyway, I could get off, but you, you say, why have I moved in
this direction?
Why I've moved in this directionis to, is to bear, witness
through my faith, to my friendswho are Jewish and Muslim and
high and Hindu and Buddhist and,uh, and other religious
(33:52):
traditions that they matter tome.
And they should have a voicethat, that should be heard by
others.
And so whether it's in the goodGod podcast or through faith
commons working together side byside and in a community
together, that's what we'retrying to, uh, to say, and to
all contribute together to thecommon.
(34:13):
Good.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Yeah.
I really, you, you use thecomparison of the terms,
tolerance versus celebration.
That's been a drum that I havehave been pounding for a while
that, you know, the solution toracial intolerance is not racial
tolerance, it's celebratingdiversity.
Um, and it, it gets back alittle bit to, you know, this
(34:36):
common tongue thing a little bit, um, when you bring all these
diverse communities together,that becomes a challenge and it
takes energy and effort andpassion and patience.
Um, you know, not, not everybodygrew up playing tiddlywinks and,
uh,
Speaker 6 (34:53):
So know that.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
And, uh, so I, I love those listening.
You don't know, George is atheologian of tiddlywinks
Speaker 6 (35:04):
Put that in there.
Okay.
But this is the thing, right?
So theology is about everything.
Yes.
I remember.
I remember when, um, when I wastrying to decide on a major
subject for, uh, my, um, PhDwork, um, I settled on
systematic theology because Iwent to see, uh, my advisor and
(35:27):
he was talking about, you know,how you could do new Testament.
You could do well Testament.
You could do, you know,Christian ethics.
You could do, you know, allthese different things.
And you said that you could dosystematic theology, but that's
about everything.
And so I said, okay, well that'sfor me, there it is.
Yes.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Yes.
I think that it, it takes worklike you're doing, and I, I
certainly applaud that.
And it's something that we, wetalk about here and we move
towards that.
Um, and maybe by year 31, we'll,we'll have gotten there or
closer to that.
Um, you know, w who was amother, Teresa said, I'm in love
(36:06):
with, sorry, I love allreligions, but I'm in love with
my religion.
You know, that sort ofperspective could go such a long
way in these times.
And you're, you know, you'renoting that giving up power is
whether you realize that'swhat's happening or not, is a
difficult thing to do foranybody individually and
culturally.
(36:27):
And, and what happens whenyou're, when you have anxiety
and fear is you lash out in.
And so what's the solution tothat.
And I think what you're doingis, is amazing.
And I thank you for it.
Speaker 6 (36:41):
Well, thank you for saying, so I would say that it's
not simply a, uh, concession,uh, and, and I know you're not
saying that, but I think formany people there, it may be a
suggestion that by giving upsome sense of privilege of
priority, that there's, again,this sort of noble, uh, sort of,
(37:04):
um, uh, gift that you're givingto others.
Uh, again, first of all, wehave, we have to re-examine I
think, uh, how much we haveactually taken it upon ourselves
to Rob them of their rightfulplace by presuming to own the
space, you know, on our own.
(37:27):
But the other thing I thinkthat's a really rich is that you
don't give up anything in faiththat doesn't come back to you in
so much more, um, beautifulblessings, uh, that it it's sort
(37:49):
of like, you know, that, thatpassage that we think only
refers to tithing in the book ofMalakai, that if you, you know,
you give your 10%, then youknow, it'll come back, you know,
there'll be crushed and presseddown and broken, and then come
back, you know, many falls orlike Jesus, um, uh, jesus' words
(38:11):
about how, uh, unless a seeddies, you know, it remains just
to see, but when it dies andthen it can bring forth a great
harvest.
I think the church in Americahas to start to understand that
about itself, better thatinstead of the narrative that,
(38:31):
Oh, we are dying because wedon't have the, of people coming
to our churches anymore.
What can we do to make it seemthat we, uh, are reviving
ourselves?
You know, what, if we actuallysaw this idea of, of death as
really just a gift of giving upto our neighbors, uh, this sense
(38:55):
of love and relationship that wew we now are partners with one
another, what would happen to usif we learn to see ourself and
celebrate that we, by giving upour finding, uh, and receiving
so much more.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Yeah, I, it, I almost hear in that Wendell Berry
quote, where it's like, we'replaying musical chairs and we've
been taking up two seats at the,in, in the game, you know, and
it's time to say, Oh, there'sroom.
You know what?
You can have this seat.
I don't need two seats in thisworld where, you know, where
there's only enough sacred seatsto go around.
(39:34):
Other than that, it's justdesecrated seats.
So, um, yeah, I think,
Speaker 6 (39:39):
Yeah.
Who is it bright?
Was it black Brian McLaren whotalked about build a bigger
table?
You know, if there's not enoughroom at the table, build a big
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Hyphenated.
Life is a production of pinestreet church in Boulder,
Colorado hosted by AndrewDoherty and David[inaudible].
The podcast is produced by PhilNorman and executive producer,
Alexi Molden, a special thanksto our guests today and the Leal
Hill trust of Boulder, Colorado.
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